Feedback on Yesterday's Battleground Brawl Livestream

baguette_poolish

Onomog wrote: »

Actions always speak louder than any words ever will. Removing the video says a lot, and none of it is good.

It says that they care about their employees more than whatever attacks veiled as "feedback" this community dishes out. So no... it doesn't say a lot

Aldoss

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno deleting the video was a bad call. For whomever was the one who decided it, have they heard of the Barbara Streisand effect?

This is the start of the cycle. Those of us who have been here long enough know what's going to happen next, and we're all here desperately trying to get you to wake up and see how much money you could be making if you were to snap out of it.

What happens next is avoidance. It's the Q & A all over again. The vod is gone, so now the PR team and the upper management thinks it's all a matter of time until it blows over... Until someone in a hot thread like this one mentions Rich's stream and all the new players go "huh?" and start looking it up. And of course, at the start of the year, we'll get our annual post from @ZOS_MattFiror who won't acknowledge anything about these hardships, or, on the occasion when he does, he'll talk about how ZOS is going to grow from it... Only to proven wrong, like is happening here, right now, which only serves to diminish his credibility.

This isn't how positive relationships work. If you hurt a loved one's feelings, ignoring their emotions and avoiding the cause of the pain is not how you mend the damage. Relationship conflicts are like broken bones - when you tend to the damage, the breaks heal back stronger than they were before. Whereas avoiding the damage causes the injury to become more and more damaged until worse pain occurs.

You're (ZOS) repeating the same bad communication and relationship building habits that you've always done, all while saying "we want to work on our communication." We know when we're being gaslit.

It's hard to work on communication when you don't talk.

Hiding the vod doesn't change or fix anything in this thread. However, it could make the sore feelings shared feel even more intense (it does for me). Why risk it?

Acknowledge. Identify. Empathize. Strategize. Then move on.

I almost wrote: "I'm eagerly awaiting your reply in that new post you mentioned", but I feel obliged now to change it to: "Please do not (once again) fail to follow through on that follow up post. It will only alienate you more from your community of players."

I'll keep saying it so that it's always as clear as possible: my wife and I are willing and able to turn our subs back on and are ready to start buying chapters and crowns again... But we need a reason to. Deleting the vod and ignoring our issues isn't going to accomplish that.

JonnytheKing

Aldoss wrote: »

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno deleting the video was a bad call. For whomever was the one who decided it, have they heard of the Barbara Streisand effect?

This is the start of the cycle. Those of us who have been here long enough know what's going to happen next, and we're all here desperately trying to get you to wake up and see how much money you could be making if you were to snap out of it.

What happens next is avoidance. It's the Q & A all over again. The vod is gone, so now the PR team and the upper management thinks it's all a matter of time until it blows over... Until someone in a hot thread like this one mentions Rich's stream and all the new players go "huh?" and start looking it up. And of course, at the start of the year, we'll get our annual post from @ZOS_MattFiror who won't acknowledge anything about these hardships, or, on the occasion when he does, he'll talk about how ZOS is going to grow from it... Only to proven wrong, like is happening here, right now, which only serves to diminish his credibility.

This isn't how positive relationships work. If you hurt a loved one's feelings, ignoring their emotions and avoiding the cause of the pain is not how you mend the damage. Relationship conflicts are like broken bones - when you tend to the damage, the breaks heal back stronger than they were before. Whereas avoiding the damage causes the injury to become more and more damaged until worse pain occurs.

You're (ZOS) repeating the same bad communication and relationship building habits that you've always done, all while saying "we want to work on our communication." We know when we're being gaslit.

It's hard to work on communication when you don't talk.

Hiding the vod doesn't change or fix anything in this thread. However, it could make the sore feelings shared feel even more intense (it does for me). Why risk it?

Acknowledge. Identify. Empathize. Strategize. Then move on.

I almost wrote: "I'm eagerly awaiting your reply in that new post you mentioned", but I feel obliged now to change it to: "Please do not (once again) fail to follow through on that follow up post. It will only alienate you more from your community of players."

I'll keep saying it so that it's always as clear as possible: my wife and I are willing and able to turn our subs back on and are ready to start buying chapters and crowns again... But we need a reason to. Deleting the vod and ignoring our issues isn't going to accomplish that.

i dont think iv ever agreed 100% with some on the forums befor. well said

JonnytheKing

baguette_poolish wrote: »

Onomog wrote: »

Actions always speak louder than any words ever will. Removing the video says a lot, and none of it is good.

It says that they care about their employees more than whatever attacks veiled as "feedback" this community dishes out. So no... it doesn't say a lot

If they had listened over the past 10 years at all, this might never have happened. I think many people forget that this is just another issue in a long line of problems with ZOS, and nothing ever seems to change. They act concerned for a few weeks, but then it’s back to the same old ZOS.

Taking the VOD down is one thing, but deleting it without any statement is only going to fuel the frustration.

ZOS isn’t our friend—they’re a company. Their job is to make money

JonnytheKing

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

I'm very eager to read the replies from @ZOS_Kevin and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom (and hopefully a statement from @ZOS_BrianWheeler or even @ZOS_MattFiror, as well) about this thread, now that the holiday is over.

I hope your vacation was enjoyable and I hope the extra time to aggregate player feedback in this thread was constructive. Should we expect a reply this week or will there be more time with internal discussions before addressing the concerns shared within this thread?

Thanks y'all!

Hi @Aldoss! Thank you and thanks for the ping. I've been fighting the inbox boss all day today, catching up. Kevin is out this week, enjoying a much sunnier locale than Maryland. We're all very jealous.

We're putting together our thoughts on some steps we'd like to take to improve overall communication, especially the cadence consistency. And much of that is taking into consideration the recommendations here. We'd like to share that soon (it its own thread) to get everyone's input.

For this thread, we've all been reading it and taking the feedback to heart. There are things we can improve for future streams, for sure, and opportunities to utilize members of the dev team.

Are there specific questions you have regarding Update 44 and battlegrounds for which we could help get you answers?

I’m sorry, but words mean nothing at this point. You’ve burned any trust we once had—what we need now are actions. I’ve been playing this game long enough to see this same scenario play out repeatedly.

Here we are again, still talking about “improving communication” or “fixing this and that.” After 10 years, why are we still stuck having the same conversations about improvement?

kiwi_tea

JonnytheKing wrote: »

They act concerned for a few weeks, but then it’s back to the same old ZOS.

That is not strictly true, and ZOS has been showing an earnest, albeit glacial, shift in its attitude towards issues among the playerbase. If we don't acknowledge that, slowly, slowly, slowly, they are addressing some core issues, we are actually being much too disparaging. Those core issues have mostly been in adding to the core game experience by looping newer content back into it over the past few years.

This includes building out the guild dailies to feel less like a waste of time, for example. They now have a multi-pronged value to (especially) newer players in that they level companion skill lines, have more valuable drops, and are tuned now to drop items in traits that the toon running them has not researched. Another is the way that the companion quests are looping back into older content, etc. An older example, that has been continually expanded upon is the antiquity system. These have certainly seen activity in the base game zones grow.

We are also seeing an earnest attempt to improve the rewards that players get from actually playing. Both Telvanni Peninsula and West Weald gift mounts to committed players. This isn't something that *used to* happen. Golden Pursuits are clearly a similar response to the long-mentioned complaints about the lack of a reward system for playing the game, and the general sense that you'll only get cosmetic rewards if you buy into certain... ...well... ...extremely expensive gambling systems.

PVP hasn't been a priority in what they have been addressing, but they *have* been making earnest efforts to address criticism. I know a huge number of people - especially content creators - have left. I know there is a doom-and-gloom, too-little-too late feeling among my own network, but it's not that there's a lack of trying from ZOS exactly.

I personally think a revamped Battlegrounds is, actually, in theory, a great idea. The basics they have laid down are good in many ways, and just need a lot of refinement. The problem is that PVP is in a severely "rundown" state just in general. It's like a city's pipe that haven't been invested in adequately for a long, long time, and now they're all leaking, and it's very costly to deal with them - much more costly than if they had been maintained - and it's no longer an easy fix. So revamping Battlegrounds is cool. It's good. It is just... ...the pipes are still leaking. I don't think ZOS knew how bad the pipes were leaking.

But if we fail to recognise how hard they have worked on upgrading some systems according to long-standing criticisms, we start looking like a hostile mob who can never be satisfied. I do see all that they have done, and how it either does or attempts to address longstanding criticisms about the game more generally than just PVP. I don't *yet* assume these attempts to upgrade PVP systems aren't the same kind of earnest attempts they have made in the past few years to upgrade older, depreciated systems in the PVE base game.

JonnytheKing

kiwi_tea wrote: »

JonnytheKing wrote: »

They act concerned for a few weeks, but then it’s back to the same old ZOS.

That is not strictly true, and ZOS has been showing an earnest, albeit glacial, shift in its attitude towards issues among the playerbase. If we don't acknowledge that, slowly, slowly, slowly, they are addressing some core issues, we are actually being much too disparaging. Those core issues have mostly been in adding to the core game experience by looping newer content back into it over the past few years.

This includes building out the guild dailies to feel less like a waste of time, for example. They now have a multi-pronged value to (especially) newer players in that they level companion skill lines, have more valuable drops, and are tuned now to drop items in traits that the toon running them has not researched. Another is the way that the companion quests are looping back into older content, etc. An older example, that has been continually expanded upon is the antiquity system. These have certainly seen activity in the base game zones grow.

We are also seeing an earnest attempt to improve the rewards that players get from actually playing. Both Telvanni Peninsula and West Weald gift mounts to committed players. This isn't something that *used to* happen. Golden Pursuits are clearly a similar response to the long-mentioned complaints about the lack of a reward system for playing the game, and the general sense that you'll only get cosmetic rewards if you buy into certain... ...well... ...extremely expensive gambling systems.

PVP hasn't been a priority in what they have been addressing, but they *have* been making earnest efforts to address criticism. I know a huge number of people - especially content creators - have left. I know there is a doom-and-gloom, too-little-too late feeling among my own network, but it's not that there's a lack of trying from ZOS exactly.

I personally think a revamped Battlegrounds is, actually, in theory, a great idea. The basics they have laid down are good in many ways, and just need a lot of refinement. The problem is that PVP is in a severely "rundown" state just in general. It's like a city's pipe that haven't been invested in adequately for a long, long time, and now they're all leaking, and it's very costly to deal with them - much more costly than if they had been maintained - and it's no longer an easy fix. So revamping Battlegrounds is cool. It's good. It is just... ...the pipes are still leaking. I don't think ZOS knew how bad the pipes were leaking.

But if we fail to recognise how hard they have worked on upgrading some systems according to long-standing criticisms, we start looking like a hostile mob who can never be satisfied. I do see all that they have done, and how it either does or attempts to address longstanding criticisms about the game more generally than just PVP. I don't *yet* assume these attempts to upgrade PVP systems aren't the same kind of earnest attempts they have made in the past few years to upgrade older, depreciated systems in the PVE base game.

mean, sure, but Battlegrounds still not working properly two months after the issues were identified is unacceptable. Performance is still all over the place, even after 10 years. We’ve been stuck with a boring meta for over two years now. And then the live stream was just the cherry on top for a lot of people.

Is it really too much to ask for a game that actually works, especially after they’ve made $2 billion? Trying to defend this situation at this point just feels like a joke.

JonnytheKing

kiwi_tea wrote: »

JonnytheKing wrote: »

They act concerned for a few weeks, but then it’s back to the same old ZOS.

I personally think a revamped Battlegrounds is, actually, in theory, a great idea. The basics they have laid down are good in many ways, and just need a lot of refinement. The problem is that PVP is in a severely "rundown" state just in general. It's like a city's pipe that haven't been invested in adequately for a long, long time, and now they're all leaking, and it's very costly to deal with them - much more costly than if they had been maintained - and it's no longer an easy fix. So revamping Battlegrounds is cool. It's good. It is just... ...the pipes are still leaking. I don't think ZOS knew how bad the pipes were leaking.

The problem is that ZOS is the plumber in this scenario—they have no one else to blame but themselves.

kiwi_tea

JonnytheKing wrote: »

mean, sure, but Battlegrounds still not working properly two months after the issues were identified is unacceptable.

I understand how you feel. The things that really hurt your ability to play the game, they seem stick around forever. It *does* feel like the things that should be an overnight hotfix (or preferably worked out on PTS in the first instance) - things that feel gamebreaking - often go on for weeks and weeks and weeks, if not much, much longer.

If heaps of players in overland base game couldn't use their mounts for stretches of minutes over time, in a way that was effectively game-breaking, wasted enormous amounts of time, and prevented accessing content in a timely manner, there would be a hotfix. Maybe not overnight, but with urgency. Cyrodiil has had *exactly* this level of brokenness persistently for the better part of a decade... It does make you pause and ask if you are just... ...a mark... ...for continuing to love and play Cyro PVP.

I *completely* understand what you are saying about years of neglect for PVP.

But how can we respond constructively? We are a small community within a game that, honestly, doesn't have the overall community it has had in the past. We really *can't* demand infinite attention. We really *can't* be top priority. But we've felt like bottom priority so long that it does feel like PVP is kind of in tatters.

BUT if the devs can help address any issues, if that is even within their power, it won't be facilitated or helped along by the testosterone-fueled tantrums that PVPers are... ...dare I say... ...prone to? [Edit: To be clear, this is intended as a general statement and not directed at you or anybody else in particular]

I *do* feel gaslit. I *do* feel what you feel. But my feelings won't help us here. I have to take a deep breath and try to be constructive and positive. And if that doesn't work in the longer term, that has to be fine. I'll either walk the empty realms remembering the good times until the servers shut down, or, more likely, move to the greener pastures some of my ex-ESO friends try to lure me towards.

It might ultimately just be I'm not part of ZOS's target audience, and I have to accept that. If that is the case, my sense of anger, any sense of betrayal, won't change anything and it won't influence them to give me the game I want. I have to find it elsewhere.

fizzylu

kiwi_tea wrote: »

JonnytheKing wrote: »

mean, sure, but Battlegrounds still not working properly two months after the issues were identified is unacceptable.

I *completely* understand what you are saying about years of neglect for PVP.

The problem with BGs still not working two months later isn't just a neglect of PvP though.... it's a clear example of them releasing buggy updates/features and not even putting the resources to improve them in a timely manner -- and arguably just lacking the ability to, considering they had said they fixed the BGs failing to start when all players don't join/leave before the match actually starts, yet clearly whatever they did to fix it didn't work.

kiwi_tea

fizzylu wrote: »

[ they had said they fixed the BGs failing to start when all players don't join/leave before the match actually starts, yet clearly whatever they did to fix it didn't work.

You have to admit that hotfix did *something*. Prior to it BGs literally never filled if someone didn't accept queue. Now, in my experience, it's only a small minority of matches that don't fill and/or don't start. Perhaps your experience differs.

But I agree, if such a severe issue existed and was reported early enough during the PTS cycle, then it never should have made it to live.

Coo_PnT

I feel PvP is dead after this Vod. It has no future and the removal of Vod has made me certain of that.

ZoS responds to all issues that require communication with users by ignoring them. They say they are there for their users, but I don't know what they really mean.
Like the BG Vod removal issue on Twitch, they don't and can't answer anything on the forum.
Removing the vod does nothing to solve the problem and brings more focus to the issue.
ZoS has taken the approach of ignoring or dismissing all criticism, which may be effective, but I hate this approach.

I would like to see you be closer to the users than to the investors.

Bammlschwamml

baguette_poolish wrote: »

Onomog wrote: »

Actions always speak louder than any words ever will. Removing the video says a lot, and none of it is good.

It says that they care about their employees more than whatever attacks veiled as "feedback" this community dishes out. So no... it doesn't say a lot

I would have deleted the video a lot earlier. It was just too depressing to watch. They shouldn't have put him in this position in the first place. The other streamers were clearly uncomfortable too. Not because of personal attacks, cyberbullying or whatever, but because they had to present buggy, broken and boring content to players who have already been frustrated for years.

It's not about single employees vs toxic community members. It has always been about the bad state of the game and how it is being managed.

Imagine living in the middle of nowhere with just one supermarket next to a busy street. The same company has thousands of good markets all over the place. But this one market where you live sells rotten fruit, old bread, cheese, meat and just a lot of expired and bad products. The floors are dirty, the prices are all wrong, the aisles are always blocked by boxes and there is noone at the checkout unless you go in the back and ask for someone to take your money... Who do you really blame when you ask one of the stressed out employees what's going on? The 2-3 employees who have to do the job of 10+ people for some reason, or the person in charge who can't be contacted no matter what you try? Should the employees, who are afraid to speak up, be protected from talking to unhappy customers? Should the overworked employees be replaced by others until they are burned out too? Or is there something else that could be done? I know such a place where customers prefer to drive 30 minutes to the next market, just to avoid this mess. But this just makes everything worse, and somehow the manager of the first place is now also the manager of another market in the area... Now if you take a picture of the market and they call the police on you, is it to protect their employees, or might there be another reason?

I don't think anyone really wanted to bully this one developer, and he shouldn't take all the fuss about this stream personally.

But i do believe someone really needs to talk to the manager/boss/people at the top of the foodchain. One disconnected letter a year is not enough. Just give your employees the resources they need to do their jobs please. And buy some better servers while you are at it, thanks

OsUfi

Onomog wrote: »

Actions always speak louder than any words ever will. Removing the video says a lot, and none of it is good.

What it says is ZoS are protecting their staff. Being under an internet dog pile is a horrid experience and mentally stressful. If I was under it like Brian and a company I worked for didn't remove a Twitch VoD, they'd have my notice and I'd be gone.

It's a video, a mistake, some bad PvP, no puppies were killed.

Bammlschwamml

OsUfi wrote: »

Onomog wrote: »

Actions always speak louder than any words ever will. Removing the video says a lot, and none of it is good.

What it says is ZoS are protecting their staff. Being under an internet dog pile is a horrid experience and mentally stressful. If I was under it like Brian and a company I worked for didn't remove a Twitch VoD, they'd have my notice and I'd be gone.

It's a video, a mistake, some bad PvP, no puppies were killed.

No it doesn't. It might say the staff is trying to protect each other or themselves. But ZOS put them in this position. We really have to stop defending the wrong people.

Artim_X

I didn't want to comment on this thread cause I wanted to avoid all the negativity, but the fact that we can no longer even see the stream to judge for ourselves is such a slap in the face.

I had the stream playing just to get the pet due to not being able to fully pay attention to it during the original broadcast, but when I did go back to watch it, I was quite disappointed.

I love ESO PvE and did not even step foot into PvP land till I hit the OG max CP level, and now it's my favorite piece of content.

I'm a 9-5 stooge in NYC and when I want to unwind, the siren song of the war in Cyrodiil calls to me. Of course, after ZOS reduced the population cap and left it as is, the queue can often times be unhinged making it harder to enjoy the content I love.

Battlegrounds is a nice alternative, but the new 2 team format does not spark joy. From my limited experience with it, either one team dominates or gets dominated, rarely are the teams evenly matched. There was a lot of logic to having 3 teams for Cyrodiil and for Battlegrounds. A 3rd team brings out the wild card factor of anything can happen and helps balance out the content.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the new format as an alternative option. I had a lot of fun in some match ups. However, the idea of the 3 team modes being put away for an undisclosed amount of time grinds my gears.

I understand it's a population issue, but whose fault is that really? At the very least we should be given the option to create create custom Battlegrounds with our friends and guildies. In this way the 3 team setups can still be utilized. We should be allowed to create our own match ups like incomplete teams, 2 teams on the 3 team maps, etc.

Besides that, there was a dream that was Cyrodiil. A Cyrodiil free of lag and full of content. A Cyrodiil where alternate artifacts could be implemented to shake things up (Hircine's Ring, Spell Breaker, Mehrunes' Razor, etc.). A Cyrodiil where the deer could roam free and not explode the servers! I was excited for the PvP update till I realized that it was the removal of content for content that was not well thought out in regards to balance.

Now to the crux of the issue. I do not expect even a dev to be able to recall every piece of gear or every skill, but resource management is such a key point that there really isn't any excuse. Also, the tank meta is atrocious so peeps would've gotten mad no matter what with the build choice and the thought process behind it. Definitely not the right playstyle to get PvErs/fortniters interested in ESO's PvP content

Now for the thing that made me want to post on here. This is a western MMO celebrating it's ten year anniversary and "out of the blue" the US anniversary event gets canceled... I may not be one of the peeps planning on going, but that just feel like a gut punch to those who were interested.

I love this game and really don't want it to get sunsetted for the next shiny thing, but the only way that can be prevented is if this game continues to be successful. Success is not just measured by income generated and new peeps popping in. It is also measured by the power it has to keep the playerbase that originally fell in love with the game. The quality of life updates they keep making show me that the devs do care, but there is a factor related to game balance and PvP that appears to be lacking. This game used to be marketed as a PvP game. More PvP consideration would be greatly appreciated.

Sleepsin

OsUfi wrote: »

Onomog wrote: »

Actions always speak louder than any words ever will. Removing the video says a lot, and none of it is good.

What it says is ZoS are protecting their staff. Being under an internet dog pile is a horrid experience and mentally stressful. If I was under it like Brian and a company I worked for didn't remove a Twitch VoD, they'd have my notice and I'd be gone.

It's a video, a mistake, some bad PvP, no puppies were killed.

Being under the dog pile, should have been a wake up call, not a cover up.

reazea

I went into the new BG's last night for the first time. I must have missed something, but with only two teams and only 2 flags that are only about 20 meters apart it seemed like I must have missed seeing most of the map. Are the new "maps" really this small?

Also, we got disconnected 5 times and only got in twice. After the 5th auto removal from the BG or other errors we gave up on any more BG's.

Is this normal? Is this what the new two team BG's are like now? (tiny and super buggy?)

We were trying to queue into 4x4 teams as a group of 4.

Aldoss

reazea wrote: »

I went into the new BG's last night for the first time. I must have missed something, but with only two teams and only 2 flags that are only about 20 meters apart it seemed like I must have missed seeing most of the map. Are the new "maps" really this small?

Also, we got disconnected 5 times and only got in twice. After the 5th auto removal from the BG or other errors we gave up on any more BG's.

Is this normal? Is this what the new two team BG's are like now? (tiny and super buggy?)

We were trying to queue into 4x4 teams as a group of 4.

Dear God, the group queue is an absolute mess. I'm so sorry that you and your friends experienced that.

It's been stated a number of times by players (myself included) and has yet to be acknowledged by ZOS. The matchmaking logic is fundamentally broken.

If you've ever signed up for the PvE dungeon finder, here's what happens: a tank, heal, and two DDs all queue for the finder, some are grouped, others aren't. When the matchmaker system realizes there's enough players for a dungeon to start, it issues ready checks. If all 4 players say they're ready, the instance is created and they get grouped.

This is not what is happening in the BG queue, and it's ruining the experience, especially in the group queue.

Instead of waiting for everyone to be ready, when 8 or 16 players are identified, a lobby is created and a ready check is issued. Except, the devs somehow forgot that there are a number of reasons why 1 in 8 or 1 in 16 players might need to afk and not get their ready check. Or they get stuck in combat and don't see their notification about the ready up.

They have 60 seconds to reply, and if they don't, 7 or 15 players get held hostage in a lobby for 5 full minutes while the system tries to find a unicorn - someone who has solo queued into the group queue.

Since that rarely happens, 7 to 15 players have to twiddle their thumbs for 5 full minutes while they wait for the lobby to close. If they leave, they get a deserter debuff anywhere between 5min and 15min long.

This doesn't happen as much in the solo queue, but for those of us who want to play this game with loved ones or friends, the experience is a dramatic failure.

I'm so happy to have not paid a dime since U35 for this experience. This experience is something I'd expect from a game on early access from steam with one dev as a passion project, not from a AAA video game studio with one of the most prominent IPs in the video game industry.

It should have been hotfixed in the first two weeks. This issue is exactly why Brian's stream was so bad, because they were queuing as a group during non-prime hours, so they ended up with closed lobbies more often than not.

Northwold

Sleepsin wrote: »

OsUfi wrote: »

Onomog wrote: »

Actions always speak louder than any words ever will. Removing the video says a lot, and none of it is good.

What it says is ZoS are protecting their staff. Being under an internet dog pile is a horrid experience and mentally stressful. If I was under it like Brian and a company I worked for didn't remove a Twitch VoD, they'd have my notice and I'd be gone.

It's a video, a mistake, some bad PvP, no puppies were killed.

Being under the dog pile, should have been a wake up call, not a cover up.

These people are human beings. Bullying them online is not actually much different from bullying them in reality. They didn't sign up to that. There is no reason whatever they should have to put up with that ("but I bought their game" is not a justification for personal abuse -- and if people think it is they're utterly delusional and need to spend more time in the real, grown-up world and, dare I say it, grow some self-respect; we're talking about a computer game, not the secret to nuclear fusion and world peace).

If players want to be provided with communications of this type, they really need to learn to behave like civilised adults.

gariondavey

Aldoss wrote: »

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno deleting the video was a bad call. For whomever was the one who decided it, have they heard of the Barbara Streisand effect?

This is the start of the cycle. Those of us who have been here long enough know what's going to happen next, and we're all here desperately trying to get you to wake up and see how much money you could be making if you were to snap out of it.

What happens next is avoidance. It's the Q & A all over again. The vod is gone, so now the PR team and the upper management thinks it's all a matter of time until it blows over... Until someone in a hot thread like this one mentions Rich's stream and all the new players go "huh?" and start looking it up. And of course, at the start of the year, we'll get our annual post from @ZOS_MattFiror who won't acknowledge anything about these hardships, or, on the occasion when he does, he'll talk about how ZOS is going to grow from it... Only to proven wrong, like is happening here, right now, which only serves to diminish his credibility.

This isn't how positive relationships work. If you hurt a loved one's feelings, ignoring their emotions and avoiding the cause of the pain is not how you mend the damage. Relationship conflicts are like broken bones - when you tend to the damage, the breaks heal back stronger than they were before. Whereas avoiding the damage causes the injury to become more and more damaged until worse pain occurs.

You're (ZOS) repeating the same bad communication and relationship building habits that you've always done, all while saying "we want to work on our communication." We know when we're being gaslit.

It's hard to work on communication when you don't talk.

Hiding the vod doesn't change or fix anything in this thread. However, it could make the sore feelings shared feel even more intense (it does for me). Why risk it?

Acknowledge. Identify. Empathize. Strategize. Then move on.

I almost wrote: "I'm eagerly awaiting your reply in that new post you mentioned", but I feel obliged now to change it to: "Please do not (once again) fail to follow through on that follow up post. It will only alienate you more from your community of players."

I'll keep saying it so that it's always as clear as possible: my wife and I are willing and able to turn our subs back on and are ready to start buying chapters and crowns again... But we need a reason to. Deleting the vod and ignoring our issues isn't going to accomplish that.

Well said.
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom can you please address this?

JonnytheKing

Northwold wrote: »

Sleepsin wrote: »

OsUfi wrote: »

Onomog wrote: »

Actions always speak louder than any words ever will. Removing the video says a lot, and none of it is good.

What it says is ZoS are protecting their staff. Being under an internet dog pile is a horrid experience and mentally stressful. If I was under it like Brian and a company I worked for didn't remove a Twitch VoD, they'd have my notice and I'd be gone.

It's a video, a mistake, some bad PvP, no puppies were killed.

Being under the dog pile, should have been a wake up call, not a cover up.

These people are human beings. Bullying them online is not actually much different from bullying them in reality. They didn't sign up to that. There is no reason whatever they should have to put up with that ("but I bought their game" is not a justification for personal abuse -- and if people think it is they're utterly delusional and need to spend more time in the real, grown-up world and, dare I say it, grow some self-respect; we're talking about a computer game, not the secret to nuclear fusion and world peace).

If players want to be provided with communications of this type, they really need to learn to behave like civilised adults.

If I were a chef and couldn’t demonstrate how to cook 2-minute noodles or lacked basic knowledge, and I live-streamed this for the world to see, I would expect people to call me out, and I’d likely lose my job. Being a public figure and putting yourself out there comes with its downsides, and this is one of them. Of course, some people are taking things too far, but that shouldn’t invalidate the feelings and concerns of the other 95%. Once again, Zos is not our friend.

As someone who streams this game, I deal with toxic behavior all the time. Does this mean the entire community is toxic? Of course not. Acting like everyone is bullying him is simply laughable.

spartaxoxo

A chef's job is cooking. A video game developer's job is not playing PvP.

The bandwagon bullying of this dev really needs to stop. He isn't disrespecting you by not being as good at a video game as you want him to be. It's not his job to perform for our entertainment. It's not his job to play pvp at any particular skill level.

The complaints against the lack of care in Cyrodiil are valid.

The complaints about this dev not being good at PVP are not.

sarahthes

spartaxoxo wrote: »

A chef's job is cooking. A video game developer's job is not playing PvP.

The bandwagon bullying of this dev really needs to stop. He isn't disrespecting you by not being as good at a video game as you want him to be. It's not his job to perform for our entertainment. It's not his job to play pvp at any particular skill level.

The complaints against the lack of care in Cyrodiil are valid.

The complaints about this dev not being good at PVP are not.

You 100% nailed this.

OtarTheMad

spartaxoxo wrote: »

A chef's job is cooking. A video game developer's job is not playing PvP.

The bandwagon bullying of this dev really needs to stop. He isn't disrespecting you by not being as good at a video game as you want him to be. It's not his job to perform for our entertainment. It's not his job to play pvp at any particular skill level.

The complaints against the lack of care in Cyrodiil are valid.

The complaints about this dev not being good at PVP are not.

This. Agreed.

Doesn't matter if he's good... his job is development. A person who helps build a car can't drive like a professional stuntman right?

karthrag_inak

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

We're taking feedback to the team for how we can better address Battlegrounds.

Easy answer, low hanging fruit. Bring back the 3-team bgs. Keep the current new ones too. See which get played more often, and have more balanced final scores.

JonnytheKing

OtarTheMad wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

A chef's job is cooking. A video game developer's job is not playing PvP.

The bandwagon bullying of this dev really needs to stop. He isn't disrespecting you by not being as good at a video game as you want him to be. It's not his job to perform for our entertainment. It's not his job to play pvp at any particular skill level.

The complaints against the lack of care in Cyrodiil are valid.

The complaints about this dev not being good at PVP are not.

This. Agreed.

Doesn't matter if he's good... his job is development. A person who helps build a car can't drive like a professional stuntman right?

Yeah, but I’d at least expect him to understand how a car works, and he didn’t show that he understood the game. We don’t expect him to be godlike, but I do expect him to have a basic understanding of the game. From what I saw on that livestream, there was nothing that convinced me he does.

Rkindaleft

It's absolutely fine if the developers aren't elite level players, that is an unrealistic expectation to have.

Nevertheless, there is a difference between not being elite and lacking understanding on combat fundamentals. The fact that someone who is designing and balancing the game's combat didn't understand (or remember) that heavy attacks restored resources when it is a fundamental part of the combat system and something even the most casual of players learns after a few days of playing speaks volumes about how the people designing the balance of the game have a limited understanding of how the combat works to begin with. The fact that people don't think that's cause for concern is also concerning.

Apologies if this comes off as rude but just trying to get the point across. It's been 10 years since the game came out. I don't understand why we still need to have a discussion on what you guys can do to communicate with us better. An explanation on why you guys reworked Templar jabs despite near universal backlash, people's concerns with Nightblade perma-glow, the reasons why you felt it was necessary to drop the U35 QnA, why you took down the stream VOD - this kind of communication isn't hard, it's just not happening at all.

OtarTheMad

JonnytheKing wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

A chef's job is cooking. A video game developer's job is not playing PvP.

The bandwagon bullying of this dev really needs to stop. He isn't disrespecting you by not being as good at a video game as you want him to be. It's not his job to perform for our entertainment. It's not his job to play pvp at any particular skill level.

The complaints against the lack of care in Cyrodiil are valid.

The complaints about this dev not being good at PVP are not.

This. Agreed.

Doesn't matter if he's good... his job is development. A person who helps build a car can't drive like a professional stuntman right?

Yeah, but I’d at least expect him to understand how a car works, and he didn’t show that he understood the game. We don’t expect him to be godlike, but I do expect him to have a basic understanding of the game. From what I saw on that livestream, there was nothing that convinced me he does.

Okay but I think players can be a little too harsh on devs. I am not a fan of them the moment but they are human, they forget, have brain farts, want to simply try a style for the heck of it. Let’s also keep in mind that not all the devs are in front of the camera like that all the time, the nerves alone would be somewhat similar to speaking in front of huge crowds. I couldn’t imagine that pressure, plus running a livestream when you never have before… I am not shocked that someone might miss something people say. Heck, happens to me in discord all the time and I am just doing PvE with friends but got locked in and didn’t hear them.

I read what the OP wrote and what Kevin and Jess wrote and others and I am giving some benefit of the doubt to the devs. I think people overreacted just because it was a dev. If it was anyone else I think they’d get some light hearted trolling and it’d be over but because it’s a dev then the reaction changes.

moderatelyfatman

JonnytheKing wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Sleepsin wrote: »

OsUfi wrote: »

Onomog wrote: »

Actions always speak louder than any words ever will. Removing the video says a lot, and none of it is good.

What it says is ZoS are protecting their staff. Being under an internet dog pile is a horrid experience and mentally stressful. If I was under it like Brian and a company I worked for didn't remove a Twitch VoD, they'd have my notice and I'd be gone.

It's a video, a mistake, some bad PvP, no puppies were killed.

Being under the dog pile, should have been a wake up call, not a cover up.

These people are human beings. Bullying them online is not actually much different from bullying them in reality. They didn't sign up to that. There is no reason whatever they should have to put up with that ("but I bought their game" is not a justification for personal abuse -- and if people think it is they're utterly delusional and need to spend more time in the real, grown-up world and, dare I say it, grow some self-respect; we're talking about a computer game, not the secret to nuclear fusion and world peace).

If players want to be provided with communications of this type, they really need to learn to behave like civilised adults.

If I were a chef and couldn’t demonstrate how to cook 2-minute noodles or lacked basic knowledge, and I live-streamed this for the world to see, I would expect people to call me out, and I’d likely lose my job. Being a public figure and putting yourself out there comes with its downsides, and this is one of them. Of course, some people are taking things too far, but that shouldn’t invalidate the feelings and concerns of the other 95%. Once again, Zos is not our friend.

As someone who streams this game, I deal with toxic behavior all the time. Does this mean the entire community is toxic? Of course not. Acting like everyone is bullying him is simply laughable.

I might compare it to the manager of a Pizzeria: they may not have the technical skills to make the perfect pizza but they have a pretty damn good idea about what ingredients goes into every single item in their menu, how long each pizza takes to cook and who to hire to do each of the specialised jobs. The manager may not ever touch a raw pizza themselves but they will regularly sample the final product to ensure quality control and keep the kitchen team focussed in the direction they want.

What we don't expect would be the manager of a Pizzeria tell people he's making a Meat Lovers Pizza and then proceed to make a taco.