Feedback on Yesterday's Battleground Brawl Livestream

katanagirl1

Sleepsin wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

December7854 wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

December7854 wrote: »

Honestly there are some personal manifestos in the comment section and if I were a dev I'd say, "I'm not reading all that."

Give the tldr version and maybe we'll be able to make some headway. Use bullet points if necessary, be succinct, don't ramble and repeat yourself. These devs are already busy. Please consider their time.

It's not a devs job to read it. There should be many middlemen between the dev and someone at ZoS who monitors the forums.

The point was that if we're going to complain about communication we should also consider our own. We're not exactly master's degree in communication material here.

And again, this comes down to ZOS' non-communication that probably celebrates its 10th anniversary this year as well.

This is a thread that has seen a disproportionate amount of attention from ZOS. Of course people will post their personal manifestos here. Because they have been writing their bullet points, their arguments, their constructive discussions into the black void for years.

These are the TLDRs, and they're so massive because ZOS has allowed the problems to compound and fester for so long without addressing them in any recognisable (not to mention meaningful) way.

What is ZoS's typical attention cycle?

About a week to ten days. This thread will go for about a month after that, but with only mods being active. There will be a post about "something" coming in the 4thQ, then no response to anything that is affecting players right now.

I want to have a positive attitude about what might happen after reading these posts. We are seeing improvement in communication already, so I think this might have been a wake-up call for them. If they keep getting bashed in this thread for past performance, then it will definitely make them decide to forget about doing anything to improve the game. Give them a chance to make it better. I love Cyrodiil PvP and it is getting to be hopeless some days, but when things work it is the most fun I have in the game.

Onomog

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Give them a chance to make it better. I love Cyrodiil PvP and it is getting to be hopeless some days, but when things work it is the most fun I have in the game.

You know, if this was the only time, I'd 10000% agree with you. However their communication problem has been an issue for years. And it's cyclic - they start out with saying they want to get better, everyone gets excited and offers them the benefit of the doubt, and then time passes. A lot of time. Too much time. And nothing happens. Repeat.

So the criticism and vitriol directed at them is earned. For things to change they need to stop running away from it, own it, and do better. Walk the walk, not just talk the talk.

katanagirl1

Onomog wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Give them a chance to make it better. I love Cyrodiil PvP and it is getting to be hopeless some days, but when things work it is the most fun I have in the game.

You know, if this was the only time, I'd 10000% agree with you. However their communication problem has been an issue for years. And it's cyclic - they start out with saying they want to get better, everyone gets excited and offers them the benefit of the doubt, and then time passes. A lot of time. Too much time. And nothing happens. Repeat.

So the criticism and vitriol directed at them is earned. For things to change they need to stop running away from it, own it, and do better. Walk the walk, not just talk the talk.

Yes, I know but there is actually better and more frequent communication now and I have not seen that before. I’ve seen posts talking about what they tried, giving specifics and a walkthrough of their efforts. This is what we really need. I’m not saying there haven’t been issues for a long time, I just don’t think that you are going to get the teary-eyed apology you seem to be expecting if they do decide to turn things around. I’m willing to let them save face if they can turn it around so it won’t get ugly

If they don’t, then you can all tell me what an idiot I was here on the forums for believing it.

Muizer

sarahthes wrote: »

How many people do you think are on the combat team? I'm curious.

You can check the Necrom credits, to get an idea.

The only ones we know for certain are involved with combat are the lead combat designer (BW) and the lead combat engineer. There was also a gameplay engineering lead and 7 game play engineers. There's some further uncertainty due to contractor engineers for most of whom we can't really tell what they would have worked on (especially because for many it's their first ever listed credit in gaming). I don't think any of the other contributors are likely to be involved with combat*.

* well, there will be people for ui, animation and other artistic work of course, but you know what I mean.

Onomog

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Yes, I know but there is actually better and more frequent communication now and I have not seen that before. I’ve seen posts talking about what they tried, giving specifics and a walkthrough of their efforts. This is what we really need. I’m not saying there haven’t been issues for a long time, I just don’t think that you are going to get the teary-eyed apology you seem to be expecting if they do decide to turn things around. I’m willing to let them save face if they can turn it around so it won’t get ugly

If they don’t, then you can all tell me what an idiot I was here on the forums for believing it.

I'm not interested in calling anyone an idiot, now or later. I'm also not interested in anyone giving me a teary-eyed anything. What I am interested in is seeing continuous, consistent effort over time. You say you see new efforts, I say I've seen this all before; I haven't seen anything new from them yet. I saw a long post, half of which was "don't be mean" and the other half was "hey, we want to do better how about a Q&A" Color me skeptical.

They need to get past the "don't be mean", own the mistakes, publicly, that got them all that, and move on to actually improving the game. I've yet to see any substantial steps in that direction.

kiwi_tea

Quoted post has bee removed.

Let's not beat around the bush. It's 3-5 years past the time when they urgently needed to address the issues in PVP. Time ran out years ago, and the game mode has shrunk and is constantly denigrated by both present and former players.

I may be totally deluded here, but even though all the above is true, I kinda think it's never *too* late. Change does happen. Different people come onboard, and the stream itself *may* have been something of a wake up call that they can't currently make and promote PVP the way they want to without *finally* addressing some of the fundamental issues that caused people like Sypher and others to abandon ESO PVP.

I know most will say I'm deluded, but I'm still amazed this stream *even happened* given until the BGs rework it felt like they were trying to pretend for the most part that PVP doesn't exist.

katanagirl1

Onomog wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Yes, I know but there is actually better and more frequent communication now and I have not seen that before. I’ve seen posts talking about what they tried, giving specifics and a walkthrough of their efforts. This is what we really need. I’m not saying there haven’t been issues for a long time, I just don’t think that you are going to get the teary-eyed apology you seem to be expecting if they do decide to turn things around. I’m willing to let them save face if they can turn it around so it won’t get ugly

If they don’t, then you can all tell me what an idiot I was here on the forums for believing it.

I'm not interested in calling anyone an idiot, now or later. I'm also not interested in anyone giving me a teary-eyed anything. What I am interested in is seeing continuous, consistent effort over time. You say you see new efforts, I say I've seen this all before; I haven't seen anything new from them yet. I saw a long post, half of which was "don't be mean" and the other half was "hey, we want to do better how about a Q&A" Color me skeptical.

They need to get past the "don't be mean", own the mistakes, publicly, that got them all that, and move on to actually improving the game. I've yet to see any substantial steps in that direction.

Maybe not in this thread, but I have seen lots of posts in the last couple of weeks where there was consistent and repeated feedback from them about recent bugs so maybe you missed them.

Well, you are welcome to do as you wish, but continuing to beat them up while they seem to be making an effort here could make your doomsaying a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Onomog

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Well, you are welcome to do as you wish, but continuing to beat them up while they seem to be making an effort here could make your doomsaying a self-fulfilling prophesy.

I'm not beating them up. I'm setting expectations and holding them to account. I'd love them to do better.

moderatelyfatman

Quoted post has bee removed.

Sorry but I don't agree with you about ESO's inherent issues relating to age. Guild Wars 2 is 2 years older than ESO and in a much better state regarding the playerbase. World of Warcraft is currently celebrating it's 20th anniversary.

The difference is that the other two MMOs have listened to their playerbase. For GW2 the devs promised they weren't going to continue adding powercreep into the game after they introduced Ascended gear. For WOW, they just starting caring about their playerbase again.

Also, both MMOs reinvested part of their profits into updating their engine so it can still run mostly bug free.

StarOfElyon

More feedback from around YouTube (the algorithm brought it to me): https://youtu.be/qMvsexbKV0Q?si=NWz4KROQEp3KCwc9

sarahthes

Muizer wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

How many people do you think are on the combat team? I'm curious.

You can check the Necrom credits, to get an idea.

The only ones we know for certain are involved with combat are the lead combat designer (BW) and the lead combat engineer. There was also a gameplay engineering lead and 7 game play engineers. There's some further uncertainty due to contractor engineers for most of whom we can't really tell what they would have worked on (especially because for many it's their first ever listed credit in gaming). I don't think any of the other contributors are likely to be involved with combat*.

* well, there will be people for ui, animation and other artistic work of course, but you know what I mean.

I don't think you're looking in the right category, as I recognized some members of the combat team under "systems designers" of which there were 19...

Muizer

sarahthes wrote: »

I don't think you're looking in the right category, as I recognized some members of the combat team under "systems designers" of which there were 19...

Yeah you're probably right. Things like balancing etc. seem to fall into that category.

StarOfElyon

Another video for the team at Zenimax to listen to and consider:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6URNhgnLL8E

DemonicGoat

When will we get more info about whats next for pvp/bgs from the powers that be? @zos_kevin

Onomog

DemonicGoat wrote: »

When will we get more info about whats next for pvp/bgs from the powers that be? @zos_kevin

I wouldn't expect to hear from anyone until next week, at the earliest.

Destai

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Onomog wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Give them a chance to make it better. I love Cyrodiil PvP and it is getting to be hopeless some days, but when things work it is the most fun I have in the game.

You know, if this was the only time, I'd 10000% agree with you. However their communication problem has been an issue for years. And it's cyclic - they start out with saying they want to get better, everyone gets excited and offers them the benefit of the doubt, and then time passes. A lot of time. Too much time. And nothing happens. Repeat.

So the criticism and vitriol directed at them is earned. For things to change they need to stop running away from it, own it, and do better. Walk the walk, not just talk the talk.

Yes, I know but there is actually better and more frequent communication now and I have not seen that before. I’ve seen posts talking about what they tried, giving specifics and a walkthrough of their efforts. This is what we really need. I’m not saying there haven’t been issues for a long time, I just don’t think that you are going to get the teary-eyed apology you seem to be expecting if they do decide to turn things around. I’m willing to let them save face if they can turn it around so it won’t get ugly

If they don’t, then you can all tell me what an idiot I was here on the forums for believing it.

I find accountability and transparency to be important. An apology or even some self reflection would save more face than just carrying on.

The only way to resolve this is to have the uncomfortable conversations, in a constructive but honest way. They really haven’t and it’s a huge reason why people get so vitriolic on these streams.

So many of us have been very calm and constructive over the years, from forum posts to streamers, and it largely seems like they stick to themselves and their own decisions. I don’t think that’s worked, because these moments keep popping up and they keep hearing the same feedback.

A lot of us have been pointing out that their strategy engenders a lot of frustration and they’ve largely stayed the course. Now, we finally see Jessica coming here because someone senior felt the heat more directly. The conversation should have started way sooner. And if it had, maybe this situation could have been avoided entirely.

Rights now, they should be looking at people’s skepticism about their communication as an opportunity to prove people wrong. There’s a few big threads where they can demonstrate their newfound willingness to listen and communicate. Let’s start there and see if they can re-earn the benefit of the doubt.

Pelanora

Isn't it because we think, really, it needs to be like this, that things went south about the stream?

This is someone who knows what they need, when they're directing their team and what it should look like.

Is it too much in game dev world? I don't think so?

https://youtu.be/XRVsl3tMGJU?si=WlKmj5gom99hqTP4

DeadlySerious

In my view if it's not Cyrodiil or IC it's not PvP. (at least within ESO. There are other games with some PvP too, but none as good as Cyrodiil used to be)

LadyGP

DeadlySerious wrote: »

In my view if it's not Cyrodiil or IC it's not PvP. (at least within ESO. There are other games with some PvP too, but none as good as Cyrodiil used to be)

This is the common view of the community. Yes, BGs is PvP... but the fact they consider T&T PvP is... (trying not to get this post edited)... an interesting thought process.

Aldoss

I'm very eager to read the replies from @ZOS_Kevin and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom (and hopefully a statement from @ZOS_BrianWheeler or even @ZOS_MattFiror, as well) about this thread, now that the holiday is over.

I hope your vacation was enjoyable and I hope the extra time to aggregate player feedback in this thread was constructive. Should we expect a reply this week or will there be more time with internal discussions before addressing the concerns shared within this thread?

Thanks y'all!

bruta

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Quoted post has bee removed.

Sorry but I don't agree with you about ESO's inherent issues relating to age. Guild Wars 2 is 2 years older than ESO and in a much better state regarding the playerbase. World of Warcraft is currently celebrating it's 20th anniversary.

The difference is that the other two MMOs have listened to their playerbase. For GW2 the devs promised they weren't going to continue adding powercreep into the game after they introduced Ascended gear. For WOW, they just starting caring about their playerbase again.

Also, both MMOs reinvested part of their profits into updating their engine so it can still run mostly bug free.

almost 2025, ZOS is under Microsoft now and this game still has no Directx12 support, something "they were planning" in 2015 lmao
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2257436/#Comment_2257436

LadyGP

Onomog wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Yes, I know but there is actually better and more frequent communication now and I have not seen that before. I’ve seen posts talking about what they tried, giving specifics and a walkthrough of their efforts. This is what we really need. I’m not saying there haven’t been issues for a long time, I just don’t think that you are going to get the teary-eyed apology you seem to be expecting if they do decide to turn things around. I’m willing to let them save face if they can turn it around so it won’t get ugly

If they don’t, then you can all tell me what an idiot I was here on the forums for believing it.

I'm not interested in calling anyone an idiot, now or later. I'm also not interested in anyone giving me a teary-eyed anything. What I am interested in is seeing continuous, consistent effort over time. You say you see new efforts, I say I've seen this all before; I haven't seen anything new from them yet. I saw a long post, half of which was "don't be mean" and the other half was "hey, we want to do better how about a Q&A" Color me skeptical.

They need to get past the "don't be mean", own the mistakes, publicly, that got them all that, and move on to actually improving the game. I've yet to see any substantial steps in that direction.

I'm with you on this.

You can just look throughout this thread and see how many comments get the good ol' (editing myself so I don't get edited).

ZoS has talked about improving coms going back to 2018? and I'd argue they are the exact same if not worse.

To your point - we have seen this before. This is just the usual loop we go through... community gets furious about stuff... ZoS says we put ourself out there you're making it hard to want to do stuff.... we can be better...we have a plan.... then silence.

I've lost track of the amount of threads they have made and then slowly just start updating - most of them were around fixing PvP. Just take a look at the performance thread 7 months going and we still have ZERO updates on the cause.

LadyGP

bruta wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Quoted post has bee removed.

Sorry but I don't agree with you about ESO's inherent issues relating to age. Guild Wars 2 is 2 years older than ESO and in a much better state regarding the playerbase. World of Warcraft is currently celebrating it's 20th anniversary.

The difference is that the other two MMOs have listened to their playerbase. For GW2 the devs promised they weren't going to continue adding powercreep into the game after they introduced Ascended gear. For WOW, they just starting caring about their playerbase again.

Also, both MMOs reinvested part of their profits into updating their engine so it can still run mostly bug free.

almost 2025, ZOS is under Microsoft now and this game still has no Directx12 support, something "they were planning" in 2015 lmao
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2257436/#Comment_2257436

ZoS engine is crippling them and their lack of action many years ago caused mounds and mounds of technical debt to build that is now impossible to get themself out from under.

Onomog

Aldoss wrote: »

Should we expect a reply this week or will there be more time with internal discussions before addressing the concerns shared within this thread?

I marvel at your optimism

Rogue_Coyote

Just a thought, but it is possible this was Brian's first real "live" pvp gameplay experience? Being Lead whatever doesn't mean he is a player at all, he may be the most qualified on paper, simple as that.

Aardappelboom

It's not because he leads the team that he needs to know PVP in detail, but I agree it's not smart to let him go on a stream, knowing that there are a few very dedicated PVP'ers in ESO.

What we want to see is sweaty PVP, there used to be a streamer collecting PVP vids and sharing them weekly with the community, use that example and stream tournaments, brawls of the community and other stuff like that, just show how fun PVP can be instead of dodging it and being all defensive about it. I would join an xbox EU PVP stream in a second and wouldn't mind sharing how I play and enjoy PVP. I'm 100% sure others would do the same. This would take the focus away from devs that don't know or play the game all that much. Better even: they could watch and take note of feedback to integrate into the game.

Somehow, I love PVP and everything about it. I don't think it's half as bad as people say it is. I'm doing (very) well in matches and have always been able to be creative, trying non-meta builds before they were considered meta. It has been succesful in mixing that aspect of the game with a sense of skill by using LOS, resource management and burst stacking. In a sense, it's the perfecg mix between fast paces FPS gameplay and rpg build elements.

Just show people how good it is by letting people show off how they play.

Just to add tot his: I am very dissapointed in how BG is handled, the new modes are riddled with bugs and I didn't want 4v4v4 to go away (especially deathmatch), also dissapointed with Cyro and the lack of performance updates/actions (if it's not working and you can't fix it, make something new).

gariondavey

Onomog wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

Should we expect a reply this week or will there be more time with internal discussions before addressing the concerns shared within this thread?

I marvel at your optimism

He said this in a particular way for a reason
That reason was not optimism

baguette_poolish

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey all, it's late but I wanted to hop in and say thank you for the many constructive and thoughtful responses since I last posted, especially those from @Destai @ESO_Nightingale @ForumSavant and @Turtle_Bot. There are fair concerns, criticisms, and suggestions here. While I can't respond to all of them, please know I've read every post and we are discussing best steps forward. I know we've said this before, but we can always do better with our communication. In that line of thought, beyond forum posts what method do you all most prefer for answers to questions? What is the most visible? A Q&A post/article? A Reddit AMA? Something else?

Hi Jessica, thoughts on bringing back the "Armchair Dev" segment, I think that segment was good insight into what IS possible and what isn't. Get a community member question and have a Dev answer it.

StihlReign

This thread has been awesome. Everyone committed to improving relations between the community and the devs should be commended.

Rogue_Coyote wrote: »

Just a thought, but it is possible this was Brian's first real "live" pvp gameplay experience? Being Lead whatever doesn't mean he is a player at all, he may be the most qualified on paper, simple as that.

Yeah, but it's been 11 years, he should know how to play.

LalMirchi

So when the players and commenters chased Rich away from streaming, I'm still sad.

The tail should not wag the dog IMHO