Feedback on Yesterday's Battleground Brawl Livestream

Joy_Division

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

. There are fair concerns, criticisms, and suggestions here. While I can't respond to all of them, please know I've read every post and we are discussing best steps forward. I know we've said this before, but we can always do better with our communication. In that line of thought, beyond forum posts what method do you all most prefer for answers to questions? What is the most visible? A Q&A post/article? A Reddit AMA? Something else?

For me at least, it's not so much the method of communication. I don't have any doubt that the folks at ZOS would like to make the product better. I've met them. They are passionate people and as much as we customers invest in playing a game, its literally their livelihood and career reputation that was out there on the Livestream for everyone to see. I don't have any doubt there is some honest introspection going on. We've all been there. So I believe there is a genuine willingness to communicate and accept constructive criticism.

That's not my concern.

What I am worried about regrading the future of Battlegrounds, PvP, or combat more generally is that there is an impossible workload being placed on the shoulders of one individual.

Think about this for a second. We all know the functionality of Battlegrounds is in a rough spot right now. Matches not starting, ZOS's own admission of the need to reform the medal count, the lopsided nature of the new team Vs. team format, questions about the MMR, dissatisfaction about some objective modes not being suited for the small arenas or the new formats. that's a lot to do. Who is tasked to fix this? Brian Wheeler.

Now we also have a ton of criticism about the excessive survivability of PvP combat in general, the heal stacking, the oppressive power that organized groups have, the imbalance between strong classes such as powerful sorcerer and unimpressive necromancers. Who is tasked to fix this? Brian Wheeler.

And then there are the people who were disappointed that Cyrodiil hasn't received any love since 2019. It's badly needed for reform. So neglected, we never received any feedback for the population caps test done 11 months ago. And we just got our hopes up because @ZOS_Kevin teased that there were future plans for PvP that were too early to reveal. Who is going to try their best to fix this? Brian Wheeler.

Of course, as lead combat developer, we still have hybridization that needs finishing, reworks to skills such as Gravelord's Sacrifice, and the self describe ongoing crusade to make Templars fun and effective PvE tanks, which falls on the shoulders of Brian Wheeler to fix.

I understand Mr. Wheeler isn't literally the only person working on this stuff. But he is the lead responsible for both and that means divided attention and trying to head multiple projects at once. We've already seen the difficulties is trying to wear multiple hats with the prolong issue of excessive healing in PvP combat, PvE wishes for a more balanced meta, and the lack of updates in Cyrodiil It's too much

Let's go ahead and put the cart before the horse here and take a giant assumption and say the communication is on point. We the community successfully relay solid, helpful feedback, and from the feedback, ZOS comes up with good ideas to help address concerns and successfully relays back to us their intentions.

Who is going to put in the work to implement those ideas? The PvP combat balance is bad and suffers from very deeply rooted problems. That's gong to take a long time. We're still arguing on the forums how to even make team Vs team work because a lot of folks are convinced even if three teams wasn't ideal, at least it was a better gameplay experience. Right now there is a leaderboard, and people who play shielders or use pets can;t even get on it. There are basic issues that really should have been ironed out before release or at least on the PTS. Cyrodiil hasn't been update in 5 years. There is just so much to do and it's obvious the personnel, however talented or passionate or dedicated they may be, is just too small for the task at hand. That's my concern. I really want to invest my time and energy into ESO. But it's really hard to sink money and time into a game where combat and PvP take such a backseat when it comes to priorities that the same person is both the PvP director and the lead[!] (not even an assistant) combat developer.

I'm glad PvP got Love for update 44. But, it was telling the last one we got was in Update 22 with Volendrung. Templars are still waiting on update 38's acknowledgment that they need help in melee. There is so much asked of one person. It's not the format of the communication that worries me about the future of BGs, PvP, or combat more generally. It's that there has been too much work and too many responsibilities placed on the shoulders of too few people. We all know this. The BGs not starting, the unstoppable "ball groups" in Cyrodiil, the frustrating drawn out stalemates. That's my concern.

LadyGP

December7854 wrote: »

Honestly there are some personal manifestos in the comment section and if I were a dev I'd say, "I'm not reading all that."

Give the tldr version and maybe we'll be able to make some headway. Use bullet points if necessary, be succinct, don't ramble and repeat yourself. These devs are already busy. Please consider their time.

It's not a devs job to read it. There should be many middlemen between the dev and someone at ZoS who monitors the forums.

StarOfElyon

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

6. Possibly reworking 5 pcs sets to 4 pc sets (moving all slots required down by one to 1,2,3,4 bonus - instead of 2,3,4,5) OR change mythics to it's own slot outside of the standard Helm, Shoulder, Chest, Hands, Waist, Legs, Feet, Amulet, Ring(s), Weapons.

Why do this? That would create a lot of power that I don't believe we need.

Becuase as the game evolved, new options became available over time. 5 pc sets, 3 pc weapon sets, monster sets, arena sets, now mythics.

As we get more options for build crafting, less space is available to achieve build crafting. Most 5 pc sets have been nerfed, or moved on from. With hybridization and jewels of misrule, sets like bone pirate are long forgotten. As the tank meta increases, the need to have a front bar/back bar setup is necessary.

What's the point of grinding a mythic if I can't use it with a monster set unless I fb/bb two 5 pc sets?

5 pc sets made sense back then, not so much now. Changing 5 pc sets to 4 pc sets makes builds optimal - while I would say a n adjustment should be made to all bonuses per pc.

*Edit: with a 4 pc set instead of 5, while running fb/bb builds this allows use of all 1,2,3 (or 2,3,4 bonus) on both bars, while making the last bonus available on one bar at a time. Alternatively, you can front bar a 4 pc, double bar a 4 pc, bb a 3pc (makes sets like Potentates viable fully), while still running a mythic and monster set.

I think we should avoid that because the power it could unleash would be too much. It's already hard enough with nightblades out there.

I do think that old sets need to be brought up to the level of new sets. The idea that old sets help create a sense of progression (something I'm sure I heard said before) is out of touch. People don't start making builds at low levels. We just grab whatever we find laying around. Which reminds me of an idea I had for trash items actually being made useful. I need to make a better post about that than I had in the past. Maybe it'll actually get some attention this time.

Tannus15

Communication is always an issue with ZoS.

They genuinely don't like to tell us the direction that are going in or what the objectives they are going for until it's too late to point out that they are getting it wrong. Take this PvP update for example. They tell us a PvP update is coming, but they don't say what that entails or what we can expect until right before PTS.

They knew at the start of the year that the plan was to overhaul battle grounds and if they said as such they could have had some feedback and input from the players. Added a new forum sections to collect thoughts and ideas on what they are doing, even if they ignore most of it.

There is no need for all the secrecy, it doesn't build hype, it's not making us anticipate it more. Mostly it's just setting different expectations for everyone so half the population is disappointed that it's not a Cyrodiil change and everyone is disappointed that it's doing nothing to address balance.

Secondly posts like the dev dive into item sets are so tone deaf and utterly untrue that something like an AMA is borderline pointless. You guys are simply not doing the things you say you are. SBE and the criteria for set power are just not true, there are multiple examples in response to it. I was discussing dungeons with my PvE guild the other night and the last dungeon set we actually use is turning tide.
The class sets are a joke.

I'm genuinely not trying to be mean or bashing here. I'm baffled by the choices being made and the lack of urgency to address the glaring issues. @LadyGP nailed it, where is the "come to (ah ha)" moment here.

Honestly it should be defcon 5 how do we fix this ASAP! not editing forum posts for bashing and promising some sort of vague Q&A or AMA.

RaikaNA

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, just wanted to follow up here. Normally, we do not leave threads open that specifically call out an individual dev team member. We will be editing the title for that reason. However, it seems like there is some constructive conversation here in this thread. So we want to make sure to keep constructive conversations around for us to reflect on later. All we ask is that those conversations try to address criticisms more generally, rather than at an individual team member. As along as we stay constructive, we can keep the thread open.

We do want to note the that Brian is not a rep for "sweaty PvP". He said that on the stream as well. He takes a more causal route now when he plays PvP himself. Also, part of the stream was meant to showcase that you don't have to be a sweat to jump into PvP. Brian's take on being more causal in PvP was meant to speak to that.

Also wanted to note that Brian was responsible for running the livestream and keeping things on track. If anyone has livestreamed before, you know there are a lot of moving parts to make sure things stay on track, so sometimes questions get missed. We're all human, so these things happen.

Just as a reminder, all we ask for this thread is to keep conversations and/or criticism more generally, rather than at a specific team member. We're taking feedback to the team for how we can better address Battlegrounds, livestreams showcasing content, and the PvP community in general. As along as we stay constructive, we can keep the thread open. Thanks for the feedback so far.

I won't speak for everyone... I can only speak for myself in the matters. If there was something wrong with my body.. let's just use an example.. my heart, and it required a specialist.. I would want to go to a Cardiologist specialist that has great reviews. I would want my doctor to know exactly what their doing.. and not take on the casual approach, especially if it requires advanced surgery to fix the problem. I would want my heart doctor to have vase experience in the field before they start working on me.

@ZOS_Kevin, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom, and @ZOS_BrianWheeler From a causal pvp perspective... people like myself have been complaining about Ballgroups ruining causal pvpers experience for the past several years now, and nothing has been done about it. Since the release of Arcanists.. This class made ballgroups unkillable due to shield spamming. The last time I was in GH and approached an opposition ballgroup.. Everyone had a shield up, and it was nonstop spamming of shields. Ballgroups are walking around with 40+ HP and still do extreme damage. How does that work? I recommend that Brian and other developers get some personal experience in a public setting. The next stream should be “Developers vs people of GH” or something similar to that. I want to see how the developers can deal with ballgroups, and perhaps give people some pointers (I feel that it is the developer's responsibility to educate their players) on how to deal with a difficult situation.

I don't care if Brian wants to become the champion of casual playing, but when sweaty ballgroups are going around ruining the PVP experience for casual players by AP farming them. that is only going to drive people away from PvP instead of encouraging them.

Aldoss

Stridig wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

DeadlySerious wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

So Sypher's first experience back was getting Rush combod...

Oh please, please tell us that there is a video of this out there somewhere. I'm begging you!

I'd like nothing more than to see ZOS employees go to Cyrodiil and get yanked around into RoA death balls over and over again, and from way out of the official range of the set. Maybe if they see just how RoA just sucks the fun out of Cyrodiil they'll make some changes to the set. It just seems like they don't know because they've never seen it first hand, so they need to. That's all. Not wishing ill on zos employees, just saying I think things might change if they saw how bad RoA is to deal with first hand.

So, I do run Rushing Agony on my NB with my group. I will say this...RA NEEDS to apply CC Immunity to anyone pulled, just like Dark Convergence. You should not be able to have three people pull with RA, then another pull again with DC. It's too much.

On the flip side, RA also needs to apply a 1s immunity to CC after the pull is complete. The reason I say this is because if you are applying a "gap closer" (I.E. Pull, teleport, etc.) there is way too many other pulls in the game, such as necro pull skill, sets, etc. that will pull you 10m off your target AFTER you complete the pull. Coupled with game lag, Immovable pots are not always reliable.

This 1s immunity to CC should apply to ALL listed gap closers.

Specific to the live stream, I think it's great that @ZOS_BrianWheeler came out to do this. Being a sweaty try-hard is not necessary to his job title. However, I will say that I think he may want to invest a little extra time looking back into core mechanics, set balance and skill balance for PVP. Otherwise, start taking community feedback a little more serious and open up dialogue with the community. I know the PVP Dev team is small, but c'mon.

As for things noted from this alone (aside from hundreds of community feedback threads), @ZOS_Kevin can we please, please get someone to take a hard look into the following AND get some official feedback?
1. Sources of damage mitigation - sets, skills, passives, traits review
2. Healing, cross-healing, cross-shielding
3. Pull sets having standard cool-downs and CC immunity across the board
4. Full balance pass on ALL classes
5. Tone-down on Proc Sets
6. Possibly reworking 5 pcs sets to 4 pc sets (moving all slots required down by one to 1,2,3,4 bonus - instead of 2,3,4,5) OR change mythics to it's own slot outside of the standard Helm, Shoulder, Chest, Hands, Waist, Legs, Feet, Amulet, Ring(s), Weapons.

I have a better idea. Ban all pull sets from PvP. Make people slot a skill if they want to pull people.

Nothing is wrong with pull sets, but everything is wrong with the idea of creating a universal rule, but then introducing a set that breaks said rule.

A rule is a rule. It's absolutely absurd that RoA has been allowed to live this long while completely violating a tenet of CC immunity. 12 meters is also unbelievably far.

Of course Sypher was confused. He spent years operating under these rules and then was tossed into the gauntlet where RoA gets abused the most (group queue BGs).

Avran_Sylt

Aldoss wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

DeadlySerious wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

So Sypher's first experience back was getting Rush combod...

Oh please, please tell us that there is a video of this out there somewhere. I'm begging you!

I'd like nothing more than to see ZOS employees go to Cyrodiil and get yanked around into RoA death balls over and over again, and from way out of the official range of the set. Maybe if they see just how RoA just sucks the fun out of Cyrodiil they'll make some changes to the set. It just seems like they don't know because they've never seen it first hand, so they need to. That's all. Not wishing ill on zos employees, just saying I think things might change if they saw how bad RoA is to deal with first hand.

So, I do run Rushing Agony on my NB with my group. I will say this...RA NEEDS to apply CC Immunity to anyone pulled, just like Dark Convergence. You should not be able to have three people pull with RA, then another pull again with DC. It's too much.

On the flip side, RA also needs to apply a 1s immunity to CC after the pull is complete. The reason I say this is because if you are applying a "gap closer" (I.E. Pull, teleport, etc.) there is way too many other pulls in the game, such as necro pull skill, sets, etc. that will pull you 10m off your target AFTER you complete the pull. Coupled with game lag, Immovable pots are not always reliable.

This 1s immunity to CC should apply to ALL listed gap closers.

Specific to the live stream, I think it's great that @ZOS_BrianWheeler came out to do this. Being a sweaty try-hard is not necessary to his job title. However, I will say that I think he may want to invest a little extra time looking back into core mechanics, set balance and skill balance for PVP. Otherwise, start taking community feedback a little more serious and open up dialogue with the community. I know the PVP Dev team is small, but c'mon.

As for things noted from this alone (aside from hundreds of community feedback threads), @ZOS_Kevin can we please, please get someone to take a hard look into the following AND get some official feedback?
1. Sources of damage mitigation - sets, skills, passives, traits review
2. Healing, cross-healing, cross-shielding
3. Pull sets having standard cool-downs and CC immunity across the board
4. Full balance pass on ALL classes
5. Tone-down on Proc Sets
6. Possibly reworking 5 pcs sets to 4 pc sets (moving all slots required down by one to 1,2,3,4 bonus - instead of 2,3,4,5) OR change mythics to it's own slot outside of the standard Helm, Shoulder, Chest, Hands, Waist, Legs, Feet, Amulet, Ring(s), Weapons.

I have a better idea. Ban all pull sets from PvP. Make people slot a skill if they want to pull people.

Nothing is wrong with pull sets, but everything is wrong with the idea of creating a universal rule, but then introducing a set that breaks said rule.

A rule is a rule. It's absolutely absurd that RoA has been allowed to live this long while completely violating a tenet of CC immunity. 12 meters is also unbelievably far.

Of course Sypher was confused. He spent years operating under these rules and then was tossed into the gauntlet where RoA gets abused the most (group queue BGs).

wait, rush of agony ignores cc immunity?

December7854

LadyGP wrote: »

December7854 wrote: »

Honestly there are some personal manifestos in the comment section and if I were a dev I'd say, "I'm not reading all that."

Give the tldr version and maybe we'll be able to make some headway. Use bullet points if necessary, be succinct, don't ramble and repeat yourself. These devs are already busy. Please consider their time.

It's not a devs job to read it. There should be many middlemen between the dev and someone at ZoS who monitors the forums.

The point was that if we're going to complain about communication we should also consider our own. We're not exactly master's degree in communication material here.

Varana

December7854 wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

December7854 wrote: »

Honestly there are some personal manifestos in the comment section and if I were a dev I'd say, "I'm not reading all that."

Give the tldr version and maybe we'll be able to make some headway. Use bullet points if necessary, be succinct, don't ramble and repeat yourself. These devs are already busy. Please consider their time.

It's not a devs job to read it. There should be many middlemen between the dev and someone at ZoS who monitors the forums.

The point was that if we're going to complain about communication we should also consider our own. We're not exactly master's degree in communication material here.

And again, this comes down to ZOS' non-communication that probably celebrates its 10th anniversary this year as well.

This is a thread that has seen a disproportionate amount of attention from ZOS. Of course people will post their personal manifestos here. Because they have been writing their bullet points, their arguments, their constructive discussions into the black void for years.

These are the TLDRs, and they're so massive because ZOS has allowed the problems to compound and fester for so long without addressing them in any recognisable (not to mention meaningful) way.

CGPsaint

At this point I just pretend that BGs and ToT don't even exist. So much wasted potential.

kiwi_tea

Varana wrote: »

These are the TLDRs, and they're so massive because ZOS has allowed the problems to compound and fester for so long without addressing them in any recognisable (not to mention meaningful) way.

Personally, I would certainly like to have a lot less to say, and I'm fully conscious that between marketing, budgeting, time, etc, the things I am suggesting may actually be impossible. I think it's great that so much has been constructive in this particular thread. I think it's great that this stream happened. I won't lie, at first I was pretty devastated by what I saw, but when I thought harder: I hope more similar streams happen, that they improve immensely, and that this deluge doesn't discourage ZOS. This sort of engagement is what we've needed. As disappointing as many aspects of the stream were, it was also wonderful. It was the beginning of a dialogue between devs and PVP players that people had concluded - years ago at this point - would never come. I really worry that all the feedback will force ZOS back into their shell, because this is a storm they can weather, and even though there is so much criticism it must feel like drinking from a firehose, there must be some other metaphor I can mix in here to say, "Thank you for hosting that stream, and please don't consider it an abject failure that mustn't be repeated. Reflect, refine, and do more of them!"

SkaraMinoc

Here's the build used during the stream. Exact same gear and abilities.

TechMaybeHic

I'm OK with Brian just grabbing a build and even if he is the worst player ever and never really plays any of it. Im ok with him not knowing every set or ability in game.

My issue is if he's not familiar with something complained about a lot, even if he disagrees with the complaints, I'd rather hear "yeah we looked at that and we are OK with it because X." That is a lot better than the hopeless feeling that he may not even be aware of what it looks like in game

jetplane_18

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

The next stream should be “Developers vs people of GH” or something similar to that. I want to see how the developers can deal with ballgroups, and perhaps give people some pointers (I feel that it is the developer's responsibility to educate their players) on how to deal with a difficult situation.

I don't care if Brian wants to become the champion of casual playing, but when sweaty ballgroups are going around ruining the PVP experience for casual players by AP farming them. that is only going to drive people away from PvP instead of encouraging them.

A few years ago we had a stream with Rich Lambert playing a stamplar in battlegrounds and it was awesome seeing an actual competent player tackling pvp. I mean I took a 4-year break from ESO and I still remember it. It would be really cool to see more of the devs just playing this game they love.

Servadei

I was thinking about getting back into ESO endgame PvP and PvE, but this has firmly convinced me that I'll keep playing other games for that. The state of the game makes so much sense now.

ESO is great though for casual play and exploration so I'll stick to being a casual here. I don't notice all the constant wild combat changes or much of anything in patches as a casual unless the server lags hard.

Avran_Sylt

Varana wrote: »

December7854 wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

December7854 wrote: »

Honestly there are some personal manifestos in the comment section and if I were a dev I'd say, "I'm not reading all that."

Give the tldr version and maybe we'll be able to make some headway. Use bullet points if necessary, be succinct, don't ramble and repeat yourself. These devs are already busy. Please consider their time.

It's not a devs job to read it. There should be many middlemen between the dev and someone at ZoS who monitors the forums.

The point was that if we're going to complain about communication we should also consider our own. We're not exactly master's degree in communication material here.

And again, this comes down to ZOS' non-communication that probably celebrates its 10th anniversary this year as well.

This is a thread that has seen a disproportionate amount of attention from ZOS. Of course people will post their personal manifestos here. Because they have been writing their bullet points, their arguments, their constructive discussions into the black void for years.

These are the TLDRs, and they're so massive because ZOS has allowed the problems to compound and fester for so long without addressing them in any recognisable (not to mention meaningful) way.

What is ZoS's typical attention cycle?

moderatelyfatman

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

. There are fair concerns, criticisms, and suggestions here. While I can't respond to all of them, please know I've read every post and we are discussing best steps forward. I know we've said this before, but we can always do better with our communication. In that line of thought, beyond forum posts what method do you all most prefer for answers to questions? What is the most visible? A Q&A post/article? A Reddit AMA? Something else?

For me at least, it's not so much the method of communication. I don't have any doubt that the folks at ZOS would like to make the product better. I've met them. They are passionate people and as much as we customers invest in playing a game, its literally their livelihood and career reputation that was out there on the Livestream for everyone to see. I don't have any doubt there is some honest introspection going on. We've all been there. So I believe there is a genuine willingness to communicate and accept constructive criticism.

That's not my concern.

What I am worried about regrading the future of Battlegrounds, PvP, or combat more generally is that there is an impossible workload being placed on the shoulders of one individual.

Think about this for a second. We all know the functionality of Battlegrounds is in a rough spot right now. Matches not starting, ZOS's own admission of the need to reform the medal count, the lopsided nature of the new team Vs. team format, questions about the MMR, dissatisfaction about some objective modes not being suited for the small arenas or the new formats. that's a lot to do. Who is tasked to fix this? Brian Wheeler.

Now we also have a ton of criticism about the excessive survivability of PvP combat in general, the heal stacking, the oppressive power that organized groups have, the imbalance between strong classes such as powerful sorcerer and unimpressive necromancers. Who is tasked to fix this? Brian Wheeler.

And then there are the people who were disappointed that Cyrodiil hasn't received any love since 2019. It's badly needed for reform. So neglected, we never received any feedback for the population caps test done 11 months ago. And we just got our hopes up because @ZOS_Kevin teased that there were future plans for PvP that were too early to reveal. Who is going to try their best to fix this? Brian Wheeler.

Of course, as lead combat developer, we still have hybridization that needs finishing, reworks to skills such as Gravelord's Sacrifice, and the self describe ongoing crusade to make Templars fun and effective PvE tanks, which falls on the shoulders of Brian Wheeler to fix.

Let's go ahead and put the cart before the horse here and take a giant assumption and say the communication is on point. We the community successfully relay solid, helpful feedback, and from the feedback, ZOS comes up with good ideas to help address concerns and successfully relays back to us their intentions.

Who is going to put in the work to implement those ideas? The PvP combat balance is bad and suffers from very deeply rooted problems. That's gong to take a long time. We're still arguing on the forums how to even make team Vs team work because a lot of folks are convinced even if three teams wasn't ideal, at least it was a better gameplay experience. Right now there is a leaderboard, and people who play shielders or use pets can;t even get on it. There are basic issues that really should have been ironed out before release or at least on the PTS. Cyrodiil hasn't been update in 5 years. There is just so much to do and it's obvious the personnel, however talented or passionate or dedicated they may be, is just too small for the task at hand. That's my concern. I really want to invest my time and energy into ESO. But it's really hard to sink money and time into a game where combat and PvP take such a backseat when it comes to priorities that the same person is both the PvP director and the lead[!] (not even an assistant) combat developer.

I'm glad PvP got Love for update 44. But, it was telling the last one we got was in Update 22 with Volendrung. Templars are still waiting on update 38's acknowledgment that they need help in melee. There is so much asked of one person. It's not the format of the communication that worries me about the future of BGs, PvP, or combat more generally. It's that there has been too much work and too many responsibilities placed on the shoulders of too few people. We all know this. The BGs not starting, the unstoppable "ball groups" in Cyrodiil, the frustrating drawn out stalemates. That's my concern.

I'd agree with you if ZOS was an indy gaming company with 25 employees.
But ZOS is large company and ESO rakes in about $200M a year. How hard is it to hire 3-4 people to make up a specialised PvP combat team? Battlespirit exists and there are some PvP sets that won't work in PvE (e.g. Plaguebreak, Rally Cry) so there is already the potential for some degree of balancing of PvP separately from PvE.

And regarding poor performance and BGs not performing as intended, that has nothing to do Brian Wheeler.

huskandhunger

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Seriously, get the whole team into a conference room and watch the entire stream together and see how great you feel about the game in it's current live state.

There are things that most scrum teams do and they are called retrospectives and are a normal part of an Agile development shop and can be done after releases or after pr events like this.

A scrum team is a small group of people that work together to deliver a product or service, like software or features within a larger software package. In this case, battlegrounds.

Retrospectives usually include direct end user feedback.

End user feedback should also be brought to the scrum by the product owner. This is supposed to help define the roadmap.

I have a hard time believing zos does any of these things in any substantive way given how they cloister themselves away until their products are fully baked AND keep repeating the same mistakes by introducing things that no one wants and that make no sense from a product prospective.

This is more of a leadership issue at the top of the house imho because this is both a PR issue and a SDLC (software development life cycle) issue.

yes and this latest stream showcases the ongoing issues endemic not only in PVP battlegrounds system development, but the game as a whole: [snip] All of this to say dramatic changes are needed or no one will want to play the game you are all working so hard to develop.

[edited for bashing]

gronoxvx

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

. There are fair concerns, criticisms, and suggestions here. While I can't respond to all of them, please know I've read every post and we are discussing best steps forward. I know we've said this before, but we can always do better with our communication. In that line of thought, beyond forum posts what method do you all most prefer for answers to questions? What is the most visible? A Q&A post/article? A Reddit AMA? Something else?

For me at least, it's not so much the method of communication. I don't have any doubt that the folks at ZOS would like to make the product better. I've met them. They are passionate people and as much as we customers invest in playing a game, its literally their livelihood and career reputation that was out there on the Livestream for everyone to see. I don't have any doubt there is some honest introspection going on. We've all been there. So I believe there is a genuine willingness to communicate and accept constructive criticism.

That's not my concern.

What I am worried about regrading the future of Battlegrounds, PvP, or combat more generally is that there is an impossible workload being placed on the shoulders of one individual.

Think about this for a second. We all know the functionality of Battlegrounds is in a rough spot right now. Matches not starting, ZOS's own admission of the need to reform the medal count, the lopsided nature of the new team Vs. team format, questions about the MMR, dissatisfaction about some objective modes not being suited for the small arenas or the new formats. that's a lot to do. Who is tasked to fix this? Brian Wheeler.

Now we also have a ton of criticism about the excessive survivability of PvP combat in general, the heal stacking, the oppressive power that organized groups have, the imbalance between strong classes such as powerful sorcerer and unimpressive necromancers. Who is tasked to fix this? Brian Wheeler.

And then there are the people who were disappointed that Cyrodiil hasn't received any love since 2019. It's badly needed for reform. So neglected, we never received any feedback for the population caps test done 11 months ago. And we just got our hopes up because @ZOS_Kevin teased that there were future plans for PvP that were too early to reveal. Who is going to try their best to fix this? Brian Wheeler.

Of course, as lead combat developer, we still have hybridization that needs finishing, reworks to skills such as Gravelord's Sacrifice, and the self describe ongoing crusade to make Templars fun and effective PvE tanks, which falls on the shoulders of Brian Wheeler to fix.

Let's go ahead and put the cart before the horse here and take a giant assumption and say the communication is on point. We the community successfully relay solid, helpful feedback, and from the feedback, ZOS comes up with good ideas to help address concerns and successfully relays back to us their intentions.

Who is going to put in the work to implement those ideas? The PvP combat balance is bad and suffers from very deeply rooted problems. That's gong to take a long time. We're still arguing on the forums how to even make team Vs team work because a lot of folks are convinced even if three teams wasn't ideal, at least it was a better gameplay experience. Right now there is a leaderboard, and people who play shielders or use pets can;t even get on it. There are basic issues that really should have been ironed out before release or at least on the PTS. Cyrodiil hasn't been update in 5 years. There is just so much to do and it's obvious the personnel, however talented or passionate or dedicated they may be, is just too small for the task at hand. That's my concern. I really want to invest my time and energy into ESO. But it's really hard to sink money and time into a game where combat and PvP take such a backseat when it comes to priorities that the same person is both the PvP director and the lead[!] (not even an assistant) combat developer.

I'm glad PvP got Love for update 44. But, it was telling the last one we got was in Update 22 with Volendrung. Templars are still waiting on update 38's acknowledgment that they need help in melee. There is so much asked of one person. It's not the format of the communication that worries me about the future of BGs, PvP, or combat more generally. It's that there has been too much work and too many responsibilities placed on the shoulders of too few people. We all know this. The BGs not starting, the unstoppable "ball groups" in Cyrodiil, the frustrating drawn out stalemates. That's my concern.

I'd agree with you if ZOS was an indy gaming company with 25 employees.
But ZOS is large company and ESO rakes in about $200M a year. How hard is it to hire 3-4 people to make up a specialised PvP combat team? Battlespirit exists and there are some PvP sets that won't work in PvE (e.g. Plaguebreak, Rally Cry) so there is already the potential for some degree of balancing of PvP separately from PvE.

And regarding poor performance and BGs not performing as intended, that has nothing to do Brian Wheeler.

Its because theyre trying to make as much money off eso while keeping overheads low as they concentrate on their new MMO. ESO is their cash cow. Little do they realise due to how theyve handled eso the last few years a large population of people wont touch anything zos related again.

gronoxvx

Im not gonna lie, as someone who quit the game a while back due to everything mentioned in this thread and the direction of the game after playing for 6 years, im impressed at the amount of effort people are putting into this thread.

Personally, im hopefully that they listen as this literally happens every year and feels like groundhog day.

[snip]
[edited for bashing]

The_Meathead

gronoxvx wrote: »

The disilusioned side of me cant help but say vote with your feet and find another game or hobby that values you as zos wont do anything that involves a cost. Theyve proven time and time again all they care about is maximizing profit to put into their new MMO. Hell its even driving away the pve'ers.

Yeah, the list of things like Jabs, Flurry, and Grim Focus animations are long on either side of the PvE/PvP aisle. A lot of that should just be a "gimme" easy win for ZOS with the players, but...

It's no surprise to me that when a moment of real interaction finally comes, tons of us jump up with ready-made laundry lists of bullet points and issues we'd like to see addressed.

Joy_Division

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

. There are fair concerns, criticisms, and suggestions here. While I can't respond to all of them, please know I've read every post and we are discussing best steps forward. I know we've said this before, but we can always do better with our communication. In that line of thought, beyond forum posts what method do you all most prefer for answers to questions? What is the most visible? A Q&A post/article? A Reddit AMA? Something else?

For me at least, it's not so much the method of communication. I don't have any doubt that the folks at ZOS would like to make the product better. I've met them. They are passionate people and as much as we customers invest in playing a game, its literally their livelihood and career reputation that was out there on the Livestream for everyone to see. I don't have any doubt there is some honest introspection going on. We've all been there. So I believe there is a genuine willingness to communicate and accept constructive criticism.

That's not my concern.

What I am worried about regrading the future of Battlegrounds, PvP, or combat more generally is that there is an impossible workload being placed on the shoulders of one individual.

Think about this for a second. We all know the functionality of Battlegrounds is in a rough spot right now. Matches not starting, ZOS's own admission of the need to reform the medal count, the lopsided nature of the new team Vs. team format, questions about the MMR, dissatisfaction about some objective modes not being suited for the small arenas or the new formats. that's a lot to do. Who is tasked to fix this? Brian Wheeler.

Now we also have a ton of criticism about the excessive survivability of PvP combat in general, the heal stacking, the oppressive power that organized groups have, the imbalance between strong classes such as powerful sorcerer and unimpressive necromancers. Who is tasked to fix this? Brian Wheeler.

And then there are the people who were disappointed that Cyrodiil hasn't received any love since 2019. It's badly needed for reform. So neglected, we never received any feedback for the population caps test done 11 months ago. And we just got our hopes up because @ZOS_Kevin teased that there were future plans for PvP that were too early to reveal. Who is going to try their best to fix this? Brian Wheeler.

Of course, as lead combat developer, we still have hybridization that needs finishing, reworks to skills such as Gravelord's Sacrifice, and the self describe ongoing crusade to make Templars fun and effective PvE tanks, which falls on the shoulders of Brian Wheeler to fix.

Let's go ahead and put the cart before the horse here and take a giant assumption and say the communication is on point. We the community successfully relay solid, helpful feedback, and from the feedback, ZOS comes up with good ideas to help address concerns and successfully relays back to us their intentions.

Who is going to put in the work to implement those ideas? The PvP combat balance is bad and suffers from very deeply rooted problems. That's gong to take a long time. We're still arguing on the forums how to even make team Vs team work because a lot of folks are convinced even if three teams wasn't ideal, at least it was a better gameplay experience. Right now there is a leaderboard, and people who play shielders or use pets can;t even get on it. There are basic issues that really should have been ironed out before release or at least on the PTS. Cyrodiil hasn't been update in 5 years. There is just so much to do and it's obvious the personnel, however talented or passionate or dedicated they may be, is just too small for the task at hand. That's my concern. I really want to invest my time and energy into ESO. But it's really hard to sink money and time into a game where combat and PvP take such a backseat when it comes to priorities that the same person is both the PvP director and the lead[!] (not even an assistant) combat developer.

I'm glad PvP got Love for update 44. But, it was telling the last one we got was in Update 22 with Volendrung. Templars are still waiting on update 38's acknowledgment that they need help in melee. There is so much asked of one person. It's not the format of the communication that worries me about the future of BGs, PvP, or combat more generally. It's that there has been too much work and too many responsibilities placed on the shoulders of too few people. We all know this. The BGs not starting, the unstoppable "ball groups" in Cyrodiil, the frustrating drawn out stalemates. That's my concern.

I'd agree with you if ZOS was an indy gaming company with 25 employees.
But ZOS is large company and ESO rakes in about $200M a year. How hard is it to hire 3-4 people to make up a specialised PvP combat team? Battlespirit exists and there are some PvP sets that won't work in PvE (e.g. Plaguebreak, Rally Cry) so there is already the potential for some degree of balancing of PvP separately from PvE.

And regarding poor performance and BGs not performing as intended, that has nothing to do Brian Wheeler.

It isn't hard to hire 3-4 people.

That was my point. They haven't done so.
ZOS needs to hire more people and actually have a separate PVP instead of pretending one single person can be combat lead and head of PvP

sarahthes

Joy_Division wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

. There are fair concerns, criticisms, and suggestions here. While I can't respond to all of them, please know I've read every post and we are discussing best steps forward. I know we've said this before, but we can always do better with our communication. In that line of thought, beyond forum posts what method do you all most prefer for answers to questions? What is the most visible? A Q&A post/article? A Reddit AMA? Something else?

For me at least, it's not so much the method of communication. I don't have any doubt that the folks at ZOS would like to make the product better. I've met them. They are passionate people and as much as we customers invest in playing a game, its literally their livelihood and career reputation that was out there on the Livestream for everyone to see. I don't have any doubt there is some honest introspection going on. We've all been there. So I believe there is a genuine willingness to communicate and accept constructive criticism.

That's not my concern.

What I am worried about regrading the future of Battlegrounds, PvP, or combat more generally is that there is an impossible workload being placed on the shoulders of one individual.

Think about this for a second. We all know the functionality of Battlegrounds is in a rough spot right now. Matches not starting, ZOS's own admission of the need to reform the medal count, the lopsided nature of the new team Vs. team format, questions about the MMR, dissatisfaction about some objective modes not being suited for the small arenas or the new formats. that's a lot to do. Who is tasked to fix this? Brian Wheeler.

Now we also have a ton of criticism about the excessive survivability of PvP combat in general, the heal stacking, the oppressive power that organized groups have, the imbalance between strong classes such as powerful sorcerer and unimpressive necromancers. Who is tasked to fix this? Brian Wheeler.

And then there are the people who were disappointed that Cyrodiil hasn't received any love since 2019. It's badly needed for reform. So neglected, we never received any feedback for the population caps test done 11 months ago. And we just got our hopes up because @ZOS_Kevin teased that there were future plans for PvP that were too early to reveal. Who is going to try their best to fix this? Brian Wheeler.

Of course, as lead combat developer, we still have hybridization that needs finishing, reworks to skills such as Gravelord's Sacrifice, and the self describe ongoing crusade to make Templars fun and effective PvE tanks, which falls on the shoulders of Brian Wheeler to fix.

Let's go ahead and put the cart before the horse here and take a giant assumption and say the communication is on point. We the community successfully relay solid, helpful feedback, and from the feedback, ZOS comes up with good ideas to help address concerns and successfully relays back to us their intentions.

Who is going to put in the work to implement those ideas? The PvP combat balance is bad and suffers from very deeply rooted problems. That's gong to take a long time. We're still arguing on the forums how to even make team Vs team work because a lot of folks are convinced even if three teams wasn't ideal, at least it was a better gameplay experience. Right now there is a leaderboard, and people who play shielders or use pets can;t even get on it. There are basic issues that really should have been ironed out before release or at least on the PTS. Cyrodiil hasn't been update in 5 years. There is just so much to do and it's obvious the personnel, however talented or passionate or dedicated they may be, is just too small for the task at hand. That's my concern. I really want to invest my time and energy into ESO. But it's really hard to sink money and time into a game where combat and PvP take such a backseat when it comes to priorities that the same person is both the PvP director and the lead[!] (not even an assistant) combat developer.

I'm glad PvP got Love for update 44. But, it was telling the last one we got was in Update 22 with Volendrung. Templars are still waiting on update 38's acknowledgment that they need help in melee. There is so much asked of one person. It's not the format of the communication that worries me about the future of BGs, PvP, or combat more generally. It's that there has been too much work and too many responsibilities placed on the shoulders of too few people. We all know this. The BGs not starting, the unstoppable "ball groups" in Cyrodiil, the frustrating drawn out stalemates. That's my concern.

I'd agree with you if ZOS was an indy gaming company with 25 employees.
But ZOS is large company and ESO rakes in about $200M a year. How hard is it to hire 3-4 people to make up a specialised PvP combat team? Battlespirit exists and there are some PvP sets that won't work in PvE (e.g. Plaguebreak, Rally Cry) so there is already the potential for some degree of balancing of PvP separately from PvE.

And regarding poor performance and BGs not performing as intended, that has nothing to do Brian Wheeler.

It isn't hard to hire 3-4 people.

That was my point. They haven't done so.
ZOS needs to hire more people and actually have a separate PVP instead of pretending one single person can be combat lead and head of PvP

How many people do you think are on the combat team? I'm curious.

Joy_Division

sarahthes wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

. There are fair concerns, criticisms, and suggestions here. While I can't respond to all of them, please know I've read every post and we are discussing best steps forward. I know we've said this before, but we can always do better with our communication. In that line of thought, beyond forum posts what method do you all most prefer for answers to questions? What is the most visible? A Q&A post/article? A Reddit AMA? Something else?

For me at least, it's not so much the method of communication. I don't have any doubt that the folks at ZOS would like to make the product better. I've met them. They are passionate people and as much as we customers invest in playing a game, its literally their livelihood and career reputation that was out there on the Livestream for everyone to see. I don't have any doubt there is some honest introspection going on. We've all been there. So I believe there is a genuine willingness to communicate and accept constructive criticism.

That's not my concern.

What I am worried about regrading the future of Battlegrounds, PvP, or combat more generally is that there is an impossible workload being placed on the shoulders of one individual.

Think about this for a second. We all know the functionality of Battlegrounds is in a rough spot right now. Matches not starting, ZOS's own admission of the need to reform the medal count, the lopsided nature of the new team Vs. team format, questions about the MMR, dissatisfaction about some objective modes not being suited for the small arenas or the new formats. that's a lot to do. Who is tasked to fix this? Brian Wheeler.

Now we also have a ton of criticism about the excessive survivability of PvP combat in general, the heal stacking, the oppressive power that organized groups have, the imbalance between strong classes such as powerful sorcerer and unimpressive necromancers. Who is tasked to fix this? Brian Wheeler.

And then there are the people who were disappointed that Cyrodiil hasn't received any love since 2019. It's badly needed for reform. So neglected, we never received any feedback for the population caps test done 11 months ago. And we just got our hopes up because @ZOS_Kevin teased that there were future plans for PvP that were too early to reveal. Who is going to try their best to fix this? Brian Wheeler.

Of course, as lead combat developer, we still have hybridization that needs finishing, reworks to skills such as Gravelord's Sacrifice, and the self describe ongoing crusade to make Templars fun and effective PvE tanks, which falls on the shoulders of Brian Wheeler to fix.

Let's go ahead and put the cart before the horse here and take a giant assumption and say the communication is on point. We the community successfully relay solid, helpful feedback, and from the feedback, ZOS comes up with good ideas to help address concerns and successfully relays back to us their intentions.

Who is going to put in the work to implement those ideas? The PvP combat balance is bad and suffers from very deeply rooted problems. That's gong to take a long time. We're still arguing on the forums how to even make team Vs team work because a lot of folks are convinced even if three teams wasn't ideal, at least it was a better gameplay experience. Right now there is a leaderboard, and people who play shielders or use pets can;t even get on it. There are basic issues that really should have been ironed out before release or at least on the PTS. Cyrodiil hasn't been update in 5 years. There is just so much to do and it's obvious the personnel, however talented or passionate or dedicated they may be, is just too small for the task at hand. That's my concern. I really want to invest my time and energy into ESO. But it's really hard to sink money and time into a game where combat and PvP take such a backseat when it comes to priorities that the same person is both the PvP director and the lead[!] (not even an assistant) combat developer.

I'm glad PvP got Love for update 44. But, it was telling the last one we got was in Update 22 with Volendrung. Templars are still waiting on update 38's acknowledgment that they need help in melee. There is so much asked of one person. It's not the format of the communication that worries me about the future of BGs, PvP, or combat more generally. It's that there has been too much work and too many responsibilities placed on the shoulders of too few people. We all know this. The BGs not starting, the unstoppable "ball groups" in Cyrodiil, the frustrating drawn out stalemates. That's my concern.

I'd agree with you if ZOS was an indy gaming company with 25 employees.
But ZOS is large company and ESO rakes in about $200M a year. How hard is it to hire 3-4 people to make up a specialised PvP combat team? Battlespirit exists and there are some PvP sets that won't work in PvE (e.g. Plaguebreak, Rally Cry) so there is already the potential for some degree of balancing of PvP separately from PvE.

And regarding poor performance and BGs not performing as intended, that has nothing to do Brian Wheeler.

It isn't hard to hire 3-4 people.

That was my point. They haven't done so.
ZOS needs to hire more people and actually have a separate PVP instead of pretending one single person can be combat lead and head of PvP

How many people do you think are on the combat team? I'm curious.

It depends on what you'd consider the "combat team." They have play-testers, the folks that work on sets/gear, and other contributors that aren't tasked with the nuts and bolts or number crunching.

My impression from the times I briefly interacted with ZOS is they generally have a lot of ideas they want to go through with, but there always seems to be something else that needs to be done (which usually isn't combat related). A lot of "we knows, but...." So my answer to your question is: not enough.

It's hard to read stuff like MMORPG say that this game has made $2 billion since launch and has what is in essence a subscription fee of anywhere from $10-15 (depending on the deal), yet this same game can't even pretend to have one team devoted to PvP activities and a separate team for combat. It certainly gives the impression of being an indie studio. This is not helped by a longstanding ZOS practice of waiting until a major update to fix known issues.

I don;t play BGs that often, but the problems there go beyond bug-fixing and ques not popping. The vast majority of matches are very lopsided and we're supposed to have a leaderboard that is competitive, but the medals we earn don;t take into account something as fundamental as shielding. And we also have to deal with excessive healing/shielding, disparities in class balance, and other longstanding combat issues. So my concern is not how or even if ZOS communicates. It's more about how can I or its customers giving $15 a month (or even $30. I know many people with multiple accounts) expect that these separate issues can be even be worked on in a reasonable time frame?

Thumbless_Bot

Joy_Division wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

. There are fair concerns, criticisms, and suggestions here. While I can't respond to all of them, please know I've read every post and we are discussing best steps forward. I know we've said this before, but we can always do better with our communication. In that line of thought, beyond forum posts what method do you all most prefer for answers to questions? What is the most visible? A Q&A post/article? A Reddit AMA? Something else?

For me at least, it's not so much the method of communication. I don't have any doubt that the folks at ZOS would like to make the product better. I've met them. They are passionate people and as much as we customers invest in playing a game, its literally their livelihood and career reputation that was out there on the Livestream for everyone to see. I don't have any doubt there is some honest introspection going on. We've all been there. So I believe there is a genuine willingness to communicate and accept constructive criticism.

That's not my concern.

What I am worried about regrading the future of Battlegrounds, PvP, or combat more generally is that there is an impossible workload being placed on the shoulders of one individual.

Think about this for a second. We all know the functionality of Battlegrounds is in a rough spot right now. Matches not starting, ZOS's own admission of the need to reform the medal count, the lopsided nature of the new team Vs. team format, questions about the MMR, dissatisfaction about some objective modes not being suited for the small arenas or the new formats. that's a lot to do. Who is tasked to fix this? Brian Wheeler.

Now we also have a ton of criticism about the excessive survivability of PvP combat in general, the heal stacking, the oppressive power that organized groups have, the imbalance between strong classes such as powerful sorcerer and unimpressive necromancers. Who is tasked to fix this? Brian Wheeler.

And then there are the people who were disappointed that Cyrodiil hasn't received any love since 2019. It's badly needed for reform. So neglected, we never received any feedback for the population caps test done 11 months ago. And we just got our hopes up because @ZOS_Kevin teased that there were future plans for PvP that were too early to reveal. Who is going to try their best to fix this? Brian Wheeler.

Of course, as lead combat developer, we still have hybridization that needs finishing, reworks to skills such as Gravelord's Sacrifice, and the self describe ongoing crusade to make Templars fun and effective PvE tanks, which falls on the shoulders of Brian Wheeler to fix.

Let's go ahead and put the cart before the horse here and take a giant assumption and say the communication is on point. We the community successfully relay solid, helpful feedback, and from the feedback, ZOS comes up with good ideas to help address concerns and successfully relays back to us their intentions.

Who is going to put in the work to implement those ideas? The PvP combat balance is bad and suffers from very deeply rooted problems. That's gong to take a long time. We're still arguing on the forums how to even make team Vs team work because a lot of folks are convinced even if three teams wasn't ideal, at least it was a better gameplay experience. Right now there is a leaderboard, and people who play shielders or use pets can;t even get on it. There are basic issues that really should have been ironed out before release or at least on the PTS. Cyrodiil hasn't been update in 5 years. There is just so much to do and it's obvious the personnel, however talented or passionate or dedicated they may be, is just too small for the task at hand. That's my concern. I really want to invest my time and energy into ESO. But it's really hard to sink money and time into a game where combat and PvP take such a backseat when it comes to priorities that the same person is both the PvP director and the lead[!] (not even an assistant) combat developer.

I'm glad PvP got Love for update 44. But, it was telling the last one we got was in Update 22 with Volendrung. Templars are still waiting on update 38's acknowledgment that they need help in melee. There is so much asked of one person. It's not the format of the communication that worries me about the future of BGs, PvP, or combat more generally. It's that there has been too much work and too many responsibilities placed on the shoulders of too few people. We all know this. The BGs not starting, the unstoppable "ball groups" in Cyrodiil, the frustrating drawn out stalemates. That's my concern.

I'd agree with you if ZOS was an indy gaming company with 25 employees.
But ZOS is large company and ESO rakes in about $200M a year. How hard is it to hire 3-4 people to make up a specialised PvP combat team? Battlespirit exists and there are some PvP sets that won't work in PvE (e.g. Plaguebreak, Rally Cry) so there is already the potential for some degree of balancing of PvP separately from PvE.

And regarding poor performance and BGs not performing as intended, that has nothing to do Brian Wheeler.

It isn't hard to hire 3-4 people.

That was my point. They haven't done so.
ZOS needs to hire more people and actually have a separate PVP instead of pretending one single person can be combat lead and head of PvP

Not trying to distract or take away from the meat here, but...

It is actually very hard to find and hire talent, especially if there are hybrid work requirements for the people to be in the office. It limits your talent pool significantly if they, say, all need to be within a commutable distance of a zos office. This is compounded by any specific skills required for these roles like actually playing eso pvp or being interested and committing to do so.

Also, after covid, it's been increasing more difficult to find dev talent. I personally spent longer than a year to hire 3 modestly experienced Java developers in Texas. Texas has very solid development talent pools and it still took forever.

There's also a cohesiveness piece to this. You want to hire people that gel with existing talent, are team players, and understand the assignment. So to speak.

It is also a huge investment that would need to be approved by some purse string holder(s) at the top and a strong case has to be made for this. Not sure end user feedback in a forum is enough.

LadyGP

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

. There are fair concerns, criticisms, and suggestions here. While I can't respond to all of them, please know I've read every post and we are discussing best steps forward. I know we've said this before, but we can always do better with our communication. In that line of thought, beyond forum posts what method do you all most prefer for answers to questions? What is the most visible? A Q&A post/article? A Reddit AMA? Something else?

For me at least, it's not so much the method of communication. I don't have any doubt that the folks at ZOS would like to make the product better. I've met them. They are passionate people and as much as we customers invest in playing a game, its literally their livelihood and career reputation that was out there on the Livestream for everyone to see. I don't have any doubt there is some honest introspection going on. We've all been there. So I believe there is a genuine willingness to communicate and accept constructive criticism.

That's not my concern.

What I am worried about regrading the future of Battlegrounds, PvP, or combat more generally is that there is an impossible workload being placed on the shoulders of one individual.

Think about this for a second. We all know the functionality of Battlegrounds is in a rough spot right now. Matches not starting, ZOS's own admission of the need to reform the medal count, the lopsided nature of the new team Vs. team format, questions about the MMR, dissatisfaction about some objective modes not being suited for the small arenas or the new formats. that's a lot to do. Who is tasked to fix this? Brian Wheeler.

Now we also have a ton of criticism about the excessive survivability of PvP combat in general, the heal stacking, the oppressive power that organized groups have, the imbalance between strong classes such as powerful sorcerer and unimpressive necromancers. Who is tasked to fix this? Brian Wheeler.

And then there are the people who were disappointed that Cyrodiil hasn't received any love since 2019. It's badly needed for reform. So neglected, we never received any feedback for the population caps test done 11 months ago. And we just got our hopes up because @ZOS_Kevin teased that there were future plans for PvP that were too early to reveal. Who is going to try their best to fix this? Brian Wheeler.

Of course, as lead combat developer, we still have hybridization that needs finishing, reworks to skills such as Gravelord's Sacrifice, and the self describe ongoing crusade to make Templars fun and effective PvE tanks, which falls on the shoulders of Brian Wheeler to fix.

Let's go ahead and put the cart before the horse here and take a giant assumption and say the communication is on point. We the community successfully relay solid, helpful feedback, and from the feedback, ZOS comes up with good ideas to help address concerns and successfully relays back to us their intentions.

Who is going to put in the work to implement those ideas? The PvP combat balance is bad and suffers from very deeply rooted problems. That's gong to take a long time. We're still arguing on the forums how to even make team Vs team work because a lot of folks are convinced even if three teams wasn't ideal, at least it was a better gameplay experience. Right now there is a leaderboard, and people who play shielders or use pets can;t even get on it. There are basic issues that really should have been ironed out before release or at least on the PTS. Cyrodiil hasn't been update in 5 years. There is just so much to do and it's obvious the personnel, however talented or passionate or dedicated they may be, is just too small for the task at hand. That's my concern. I really want to invest my time and energy into ESO. But it's really hard to sink money and time into a game where combat and PvP take such a backseat when it comes to priorities that the same person is both the PvP director and the lead[!] (not even an assistant) combat developer.

I'm glad PvP got Love for update 44. But, it was telling the last one we got was in Update 22 with Volendrung. Templars are still waiting on update 38's acknowledgment that they need help in melee. There is so much asked of one person. It's not the format of the communication that worries me about the future of BGs, PvP, or combat more generally. It's that there has been too much work and too many responsibilities placed on the shoulders of too few people. We all know this. The BGs not starting, the unstoppable "ball groups" in Cyrodiil, the frustrating drawn out stalemates. That's my concern.

I'd agree with you if ZOS was an indy gaming company with 25 employees.
But ZOS is large company and ESO rakes in about $200M a year. How hard is it to hire 3-4 people to make up a specialised PvP combat team? Battlespirit exists and there are some PvP sets that won't work in PvE (e.g. Plaguebreak, Rally Cry) so there is already the potential for some degree of balancing of PvP separately from PvE.

And regarding poor performance and BGs not performing as intended, that has nothing to do Brian Wheeler.

It isn't hard to hire 3-4 people.

That was my point. They haven't done so.
ZOS needs to hire more people and actually have a separate PVP instead of pretending one single person can be combat lead and head of PvP

Not trying to distract or take away from the meat here, but...

It is actually very hard to find and hire talent, especially if there are hybrid work requirements for the people to be in the office. It limits your talent pool significantly if they, say, all need to be within a commutable distance of a zos office. This is compounded by any specific skills required for these roles like actually playing eso pvp or being interested and committing to do so.

Also, after covid, it's been increasing more difficult to find dev talent. I personally spent longer than a year to hire 3 modestly experienced Java developers in Texas. Texas has very solid development talent pools and it still took forever.

There's also a cohesiveness piece to this. You want to hire people that gel with existing talent, are team players, and understand the assignment. So to speak.

It is also a huge investment that would need to be approved by some purse string holder(s) at the top and a strong case has to be made for this. Not sure end user feedback in a forum is enough.

I hear you as someone who also has had challenges hiring developers... BUT.... this is Zenimax. The amount of fresh graduates applying to gaming studios is not a small talent pool.

They could easily repurpose 2-3 in house devs to focus on PvP if they wanted.

All of this goes back to an issue in leadership. ESO is the way it is (intentional lack of direct communication, lack of PvP updates, ect) because of the current leadership.

It is what it is, unfortunately.

Estin

Tannus15 wrote: »

They tell us a PvP update is coming, but they don't say what that entails or what we can expect until right before PTS.

They knew at the start of the year that the plan was to overhaul battle grounds and if they said as such they could have had some feedback and input from the players. Added a new forum sections to collect thoughts and ideas on what they are doing, even if they ignore most of it.

There is no need for all the secrecy, it doesn't build hype, it's not making us anticipate it more. Mostly it's just setting different expectations for everyone so half the population is disappointed that it's not a Cyrodiil change and everyone is disappointed that it's doing nothing to address balance.

Honestly, this will do so much more than any amount of QnA/AuA can accomplish. The PTS cycle is far too short to incorporate any major feedback. If the idea is to make tent pole systems going forward, or to make major adjustments to class balance, outlines for them need to be provided to the players months in advanced so feedback can be implemented. I don't think anything presented to the PTS has ever been removed or majorly adjusted. It's usually always pushed to live with sometimes minor adjustments, even if it's seen as unfavorable to the majority of the playerbase. Any PTS feedback may then be looked at and incorporated a year or two down the line, and most people who cared enough to provide feedback have already moved on by then.

Hassles surrounding the IA and new BGs could've been avoided entirely if a full outline was provided at the start of the year they were announced and there was a dedicated section for its feedback. If there is a vision for a direction a class should take, it needs to be provided long before any changes start to be made so a class does not end up in limbo for a year or more like what happened to necromancer.

Aldoss

Joy_Division wrote: »

So my answer to your question is: not enough.

This is the correct answer. If it's just Brian? Not enough. If it's a team of 10? Still not enough.

It doesn't matter what ZOS has been doing because what they've done over the last couple years has been terrible and has left us with the state of the game as it stands.

They need to rethink their approach here and yes, this is an issue with management, 100%. That's why I keep tagging @ZOS_MattFiror here because he's the guy that should be worried about his teams setting fire to marketing budgets such as the BG Brawl livestream showcasing to tens of thousands of players how demonstrably bad this patch deliver has been.

This vacation this week will either make or break ZOS right now. They'll come back and see hundreds of replies to this thread and either make the choice to reflect and read all the replies to help them with their introspection, or they'll do what they always do, say a couple promises that they won't keep and then move on with business as usual.

A decade of old habits are hard to break. We'll see what choice they make next week.

In more relevant my news, my wife and I chose to play another game last night because we logged on late and we were only going to get about an hour of playtime and we're just not willing anymore to sit in empty lobbies and gamble.

We'd rather have played ESO, but ZOS doesn't seem keen on letting us do that.

LadyGP

Aldoss wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

So my answer to your question is: not enough.

This is the correct answer. If it's just Brian? Not enough. If it's a team of 10? Still not enough.

It doesn't matter what ZOS has been doing because what they've done over the last couple years has been terrible and has left us with the state of the game as it stands.

They need to rethink their approach here and yes, this is an issue with management, 100%. That's why I keep tagging @ZOS_MattFiror here because he's the guy that should be worried about his teams setting fire to marketing budgets such as the BG Brawl livestream showcasing to tens of thousands of players how demonstrably bad this patch deliver has been.

This vacation this week will either make or break ZOS right now. They'll come back and see hundreds of replies to this thread and either make the choice to reflect and read all the replies to help them with their introspection, or they'll do what they always do, say a couple promises that they won't keep and then move on with business as usual.

A decade of old habits are hard to break. We'll see what choice they make next week.

In more relevant my news, my wife and I chose to play another game last night because we logged on late and we were only going to get about an hour of playtime and we're just not willing anymore to sit in empty lobbies and gamble.

We'd rather have played ESO, but ZOS doesn't seem keen on letting us do that.

I will say it's been refreshing to see the amount of updates, sometimes multiple a day, Apples or Cabbage has been putting out. Putting pesticide on bugs almost daily and adding new ingredients to the mix.. it's been a very tasty meal thus far.

Sleepsin

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

December7854 wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

December7854 wrote: »

Honestly there are some personal manifestos in the comment section and if I were a dev I'd say, "I'm not reading all that."

Give the tldr version and maybe we'll be able to make some headway. Use bullet points if necessary, be succinct, don't ramble and repeat yourself. These devs are already busy. Please consider their time.

It's not a devs job to read it. There should be many middlemen between the dev and someone at ZoS who monitors the forums.

The point was that if we're going to complain about communication we should also consider our own. We're not exactly master's degree in communication material here.

And again, this comes down to ZOS' non-communication that probably celebrates its 10th anniversary this year as well.

This is a thread that has seen a disproportionate amount of attention from ZOS. Of course people will post their personal manifestos here. Because they have been writing their bullet points, their arguments, their constructive discussions into the black void for years.

These are the TLDRs, and they're so massive because ZOS has allowed the problems to compound and fester for so long without addressing them in any recognisable (not to mention meaningful) way.

What is ZoS's typical attention cycle?

About a week to ten days. This thread will go for about a month after that, but with only mods being active. There will be a post about "something" coming in the 4thQ, then no response to anything that is affecting players right now.