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Feedback on Yesterday's Battleground Brawl Livestream
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Sleepsin✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »A chef's job is cooking. A video game developer's job is not playing PvP.
The bandwagon bullying of this dev really needs to stop. He isn't disrespecting you by not being as good at a video game as you want him to be. It's not his job to perform for our entertainment. It's not his job to play pvp at any particular skill level.
The complaints against the lack of care in Cyrodiil are valid.
The complaints about this dev not being good at PVP are not.
Being not good at playing the game is one thing, lacking core knowledge of the game fundamentals for an aspect of the game you are the lead for, is another problem altogether.
I am in aircraft maintenance, I do not know how to fly aircraft, but in my area of expertise, I can take them apart and put them back together correctly. If I couldn't I would be fired.8 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »A chef's job is cooking. A video game developer's job is not playing PvP.
The bandwagon bullying of this dev really needs to stop. He isn't disrespecting you by not being as good at a video game as you want him to be. It's not his job to perform for our entertainment. It's not his job to play pvp at any particular skill level.
The complaints against the lack of care in Cyrodiil are valid.
The complaints about this dev not being good at PVP are not.
Being not good at playing the game is one thing, lacking core knowledge of the game fundamentals for an aspect of the game you are the lead for, is another problem altogether.
I am in aircraft maintenance, I do not know how to fly aircraft, but in my area of expertise, I can take them apart and put them back together correctly. If I couldn't I would be fired.
And he can develop things and has clearly lead the development of a successful game that's made 2 billion dollars. Claiming he doesn't know his job because he wasn't playing the game well or because he didn't recall the name of a one skill out of hundreds while simultaneously juggling three different tasks is preposterous.8 -
kiwi_tea✭✭✭I agree the fixation of one particular person is completely unhelpful, a total distraction from the issues that actually need addressing, and even insofar as it might be related, still unhelpfully personalising these issues. I've really tried to avoid the topic in general, and I think others would benefit from that too. We all know conclusions some people have drawn - fairly or unfairly. We don't need to make the same point 20, 30, 50 times, especially when it is about an individual person.
Take a step back, take a breath, and address your concerns more broadly than "This person should know this core mechanic". Because the more you direct them at the failures of one particular person - who, whatever errors they made on stream, we only really have superficial knowledge about - the more we create the circumstances where there just can't be a constructive dialogue.
This doesn't need to be about a dev. It doesn't even need to be about a dev's perceived failures. It needs to be about the game, it needs to be about PVP, it needs to be impersonal.
The more personal people make it, the more likely this becomes a set of issues ZOS won't discuss openly. Which hurts players and ZOS pretty much in equal measure.
And anyway, this whole affair is far from one individual's mess up.
The format of the stream. Running the stream while the BG queues were badly broken. Updating BGs *before* fixing the overall PVP balance issues. Taking the video down.
People's fixation on one individual obscures the fact that there were many bad calls from many people here, and none of those people deserve to be (a) fired (b) called out as individuals (c) harassed in any way.
People are allowed to mess up - even people who are at the elite end of an industry. It's not the end of the world so long as they're afforded a chance to reflect and adapt and learn. Give them that chance.11 -
Sleepsin✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »A chef's job is cooking. A video game developer's job is not playing PvP.
The bandwagon bullying of this dev really needs to stop. He isn't disrespecting you by not being as good at a video game as you want him to be. It's not his job to perform for our entertainment. It's not his job to play pvp at any particular skill level.
The complaints against the lack of care in Cyrodiil are valid.
The complaints about this dev not being good at PVP are not.
Being not good at playing the game is one thing, lacking core knowledge of the game fundamentals for an aspect of the game you are the lead for, is another problem altogether.
I am in aircraft maintenance, I do not know how to fly aircraft, but in my area of expertise, I can take them apart and put them back together correctly. If I couldn't I would be fired.
And he can develop things and has clearly lead the development of a successful game that's made 2 billion dollars. Claiming he doesn't know his job because he wasn't playing the game well or because he didn't recall the name of a one skill out of hundreds while simultaneously juggling three different tasks is preposterous.
He is the combat lead and didn't know heavy attack restores resources. That's basic combat that everybody uses.16 -
OtarTheMad✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »A chef's job is cooking. A video game developer's job is not playing PvP.
The bandwagon bullying of this dev really needs to stop. He isn't disrespecting you by not being as good at a video game as you want him to be. It's not his job to perform for our entertainment. It's not his job to play pvp at any particular skill level.
The complaints against the lack of care in Cyrodiil are valid.
The complaints about this dev not being good at PVP are not.
Being not good at playing the game is one thing, lacking core knowledge of the game fundamentals for an aspect of the game you are the lead for, is another problem altogether.
I am in aircraft maintenance, I do not know how to fly aircraft, but in my area of expertise, I can take them apart and put them back together correctly. If I couldn't I would be fired.
And he can develop things and has clearly lead the development of a successful game that's made 2 billion dollars. Claiming he doesn't know his job because he wasn't playing the game well or because he didn't recall the name of a one skill out of hundreds while simultaneously juggling three different tasks is preposterous.
He is the combat lead and didn't know heavy attack restores resources. That's basic combat that everybody uses.
So he made a mistake, he forgot... you've never slipped up? Especially with an insane amount of pressure on you? It happens and we really need to move on.4 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »A chef's job is cooking. A video game developer's job is not playing PvP.
The bandwagon bullying of this dev really needs to stop. He isn't disrespecting you by not being as good at a video game as you want him to be. It's not his job to perform for our entertainment. It's not his job to play pvp at any particular skill level.
The complaints against the lack of care in Cyrodiil are valid.
The complaints about this dev not being good at PVP are not.
Being not good at playing the game is one thing, lacking core knowledge of the game fundamentals for an aspect of the game you are the lead for, is another problem altogether.
I am in aircraft maintenance, I do not know how to fly aircraft, but in my area of expertise, I can take them apart and put them back together correctly. If I couldn't I would be fired.
And he can develop things and has clearly lead the development of a successful game that's made 2 billion dollars. Claiming he doesn't know his job because he wasn't playing the game well or because he didn't recall the name of a one skill out of hundreds while simultaneously juggling three different tasks is preposterous.
He is the combat lead and didn't know heavy attack restores resources. That's basic combat that everybody uses.
And Gordon Ramsay infamously messed up a grilled cheese. That doesn't change a thing I said. He's already provably a success at this job. This game has been around for 10 years now and he's contributed to that. Every online game has balance issues. But to take an employee not being good at PVP or making a mistake while multitasking as a personal insult is preposterous.
There are legitimate concerns with PvP. Singling this dev out for not being good at PVP or making some small mistake is not one of them.
6 -
silky_soft✭✭✭✭✭
✭This is why only the best individual contributors should be managers at any level. Only then will the whole team be elevated and effective, instead of stagnated and disinterested.Here $15, goat mount please. Not gambling or paying 45 : lol :
20% base speed for high ping players.
Streak moves you faster then speed cap.
They should of made 4v4v4v4 instead of 8v8.0 -
Djennku✭✭✭✭✭I have been reading this thread, I watched the livestream, and went back to rewatch it when all the drama was ramping up.
I have also played alot of the new BGs since it's lauch in update 44. And I have some things I want to mention.
First, I saw nothing in regards to any issues from Brian during the stream people are complaining about. In fact, he kept a calm, respectful attude the whole stream. As we know, he was new or not super familiar with streaming, and had to manage the whole stream himself while entertaining the audience and focusing on sharing a fun and engaging time with a few guests and showcasing the new BGs with a few matches where the community could join in and participate.
Second, streaming and entertaining and audience when not experienced in it is very difficult. There's alot to manage, and it's not easy at all. Doing all that while having to focus on playing a game like ESO, which can requre alot of focus, can also be tough, especially when streaming pvp, where like it or not there were alot of players headhunting, singling Brian out, and some stream sniping involved. Even very experienced pvp players, who can commit full focus to the game, and do very well in pvp, are still going to die no matter what build you are on and when everyone targets you and focuses you out, no build or skill can save you regardless of who you are.
It's pvp. Everyone dies. Dying does not make you a bad player, nor does it mean you suck at pvp.
After everything that happened, I think Brain did a great job, and I personally enjoyed the stream.
That out of the way. All this drama, hate, complaining, and whining has gotten completely out of hand. People making videos trashing the livestream, and stirring up trouble have not helped the situation at all,
My personal experience with the new battlegrounds has been mixed. I've enjoyed the new system, but it needs some more tweaking to really shine. It's new, and I feel more adjustment needs to be made with how the MMR system functions, as currently, especially with the 8v8 games, most matches I have played have been completely one-sided. Either the team I am on slaughters the other, or (and more often than not) my team is completely slaughtered by the opponnents, with very litle hope of making a comeback.
This is the nature of RNG and who you get matched up with, as BGs are a team vs team game, and the better team wins. I mostly pug the solo queue and have experienced playing with players who range from coming together as a well coordinated team, playing the objectives, playing well but getting overrun, not playing ovjectives at all, refusing to play as a team, to even refusing to play the match at all and throw it, and everything else in between.
It can be extremely fustrating at times, and even very fun regardless of winning or losing. I also understand how fustrating it is to lose many games in a row. I think my longest streak was 20-25 losses before I got a single win in one day, especially when going after the daily merit.
There's quite a few problems with the arena's designs, like how enemy players can kill you at your base (hunter's fortess is nototious for this, as enemies can even drop AOEs and sorc ATROS among other things on top of you, and you die as soon as you respawn), among other things that need relooking at and adjusting.
All in all, it's a start, and like any other feature inplemented into ESO, it can take time to get to a sweet spot.
One more thing, those of you mentioning Rich and Terry, don't forget that what was actually said was nothing bad, but got taken out if context, completely twisted, and blown out of proportion, when it never needed to. Yes, I saw the original stream, and no, I don't think the resulting drama and panic then was necessary, nor is it now.
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_BrianWheeler , I just want to say I understand this is a very delicate situation, and you are handling it as best you can. I hope this issue can be properly addressed, resolved, and result in better things in the future moving forward. I want to let you all know that many of us love and support ESO, and understand unexpected things happen, and those of us (I can really only speak for myself though) who know how difficult it is to work on and develop a game as big as ESO is, understand that fixing any issues is not as simple as turning on a light or pushing a button, and that it can take time to get things fixed and properly tested.
That said, I know that news and information travels faster than the time needed to actually address a situation properly. I love ESO and veey much want it to keep being the successful game I and others find so much joy in.
I hope my feedback and insight here can help you guys!@Djennku, PCNA.
Grand Master crafter, all styles and all furnishing plans known pre U41.
Vamp and WW bites available for players.
Shoot me an in-game mail if you need anything, happy to help!13 -
manukartofanu✭✭✭✭Honestly, it's sad to read what people who recently joined the discussion are writing. An excessive focus on one person is harmful and won't lead to anything good. When you write, think about your goals. Right now, I have a strong feeling that some of the newcomers here want to insult those who have been trying to have a constructive conversation, while others are trying to insult the developers as much as possible. What do you even want? For everyone to get offended at each other?7 -
XSTRONG✭✭✭✭✭Im surprised this thread isnt closed yet?
I think people have said what they wanted to have said and now its only back and forth talk5 -
Aldoss✭✭✭✭✭
✭manukartofanu wrote: »Honestly, it's sad to read what people who recently joined the discussion are writing. An excessive focus on one person is harmful and won't lead to anything good. When you write, think about your goals. Right now, I have a strong feeling that some of the newcomers here want to insult those who have been trying to have a constructive conversation, while others are trying to insult the developers as much as possible. What do you even want? For everyone to get offended at each other?
This comment confused me because I've been active this entire time and I've only noticed a very few number of posts that I'd deem cross the threshold into non-constructive/insulting verbiage and tone. I decided to run this through AI to see if I was crazy. Here's what it found:
Overall Thread Analysis
Total Pages Analyzed: 11
Total Unique Posters: Approximately 85 (some repeat posters)
Dominant Emotional Themes:
Critical (fair): A significant number of posts offer critiques focused on gameplay issues or the livestream's content, staying within constructive boundaries.
Supportive: Several users express appreciation for the effort, acknowledging challenges of public engagement and livestream participation.
Frustrated/Disheartened: Many posters show deep frustration with the PvP state and Brian Wheeler’s apparent lack of familiarity with certain mechanics.
Sentiment Breakdown
Sentiment | Number of Posts| Description
Critical (Fair) | ~80% | Focused critiques of game balance, tank meta, and combat systems.
Supportive | ~10% | Commends ZOS efforts and empathizes with the livestreaming challenges.
Frustrated (Mild)| ~7% | Expresses dissatisfaction with PvP balance or perceived neglect.
Insulting | ~3% | Dismissive comments toward Brian Wheeler, using personal attacks.
Critical or Insulting Posts Targeting @ZOS_BrianWheeler
Total Posts Referencing @ZOS_BrianWheeler: ~60 directly mention him by name or role.
Insulting Posts: Approximately 12 posts can be classified as insulting.
Nature of Insults:
Several posts claim he is unqualified or unfamiliar with PvP mechanics.
Dismissive remarks about his performance in the livestream, calling it embarrassing.
Some comments make generalized statements about his ability to lead PvP content development.
Examples of Phrases Used:
“Brian doesn’t even know his own game.”
“It’s a joke that he’s leading PvP combat design.”
“Why is someone so out of touch with PvP even in charge?”
Key Observations
Critical but Fair Feedback (Majority):
Most posts, though critical, focus on addressing game balance issues, such as the prevalence of the tank meta, cross-healing in Cyrodiil, and the "Rush of Agony" set.
Users expressed disappointment in the livestream as it failed to address major community concerns or inspire confidence in future PvP changes.
Support for ZOS and Livestream Effort:
A smaller but present subset of users empathized with the difficulties of livestreaming and appreciated Brian Wheeler’s willingness to participate, despite his performance criticisms.
Constructive Suggestions:
Many posters called for more transparency and engagement with the PvP community, suggesting that ZOS consult experienced PvP streamers and players.
Other suggestions included reverting queue systems and addressing long-standing issues like group stacking.
Insults Toward Brian Wheeler:
While a minority, some posts crossed the line from critique to personal attacks. These focused less on constructive feedback and more on undermining his competence or ridiculing his efforts.
Conclusion
This thread primarily reflects a passionate community seeking improvements for PvP in The Elder Scrolls Online. While most feedback is fair and constructive, a small subset of posts contains direct insults targeting @ZOS_BrianWheeler. The majority of participants, however, aim to foster positive change through their critiques.
Would you like this analysis in a document or a visual representation?
I think most people in this thread are doing a good job at being critical, but fair, in discussing how the livestream failed to inspire confidence in their hope that the issues that plague combat currently will ever be addressed in any meaningful way.
The thread should not be locked because a minority of posters failed to present their frustrations in a constructive way. The majority of us are here to help ZOS grow and make better choices moving forward.23 -
OtarTheMad✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭manukartofanu wrote: »Honestly, it's sad to read what people who recently joined the discussion are writing. An excessive focus on one person is harmful and won't lead to anything good. When you write, think about your goals. Right now, I have a strong feeling that some of the newcomers here want to insult those who have been trying to have a constructive conversation, while others are trying to insult the developers as much as possible. What do you even want? For everyone to get offended at each other?
This comment confused me because I've been active this entire time and I've only noticed a very few number of posts that I'd deem cross the threshold into non-constructive/insulting verbiage and tone. I decided to run this through AI to see if I was crazy. Here's what it found:
Overall Thread Analysis
Total Pages Analyzed: 11
Total Unique Posters: Approximately 85 (some repeat posters)
Dominant Emotional Themes:
Critical (fair): A significant number of posts offer critiques focused on gameplay issues or the livestream's content, staying within constructive boundaries.
Supportive: Several users express appreciation for the effort, acknowledging challenges of public engagement and livestream participation.
Frustrated/Disheartened: Many posters show deep frustration with the PvP state and Brian Wheeler’s apparent lack of familiarity with certain mechanics.
Sentiment Breakdown
Sentiment | Number of Posts| Description
Critical (Fair) | ~80% | Focused critiques of game balance, tank meta, and combat systems.
Supportive | ~10% | Commends ZOS efforts and empathizes with the livestreaming challenges.
Frustrated (Mild)| ~7% | Expresses dissatisfaction with PvP balance or perceived neglect.
Insulting | ~3% | Dismissive comments toward Brian Wheeler, using personal attacks.
Critical or Insulting Posts Targeting @ZOS_BrianWheeler
Total Posts Referencing @ZOS_BrianWheeler: ~60 directly mention him by name or role.
Insulting Posts: Approximately 12 posts can be classified as insulting.
Nature of Insults:
Several posts claim he is unqualified or unfamiliar with PvP mechanics.
Dismissive remarks about his performance in the livestream, calling it embarrassing.
Some comments make generalized statements about his ability to lead PvP content development.
Examples of Phrases Used:
“Brian doesn’t even know his own game.”
“It’s a joke that he’s leading PvP combat design.”
“Why is someone so out of touch with PvP even in charge?”
Key Observations
Critical but Fair Feedback (Majority):
Most posts, though critical, focus on addressing game balance issues, such as the prevalence of the tank meta, cross-healing in Cyrodiil, and the "Rush of Agony" set.
Users expressed disappointment in the livestream as it failed to address major community concerns or inspire confidence in future PvP changes.
Support for ZOS and Livestream Effort:
A smaller but present subset of users empathized with the difficulties of livestreaming and appreciated Brian Wheeler’s willingness to participate, despite his performance criticisms.
Constructive Suggestions:
Many posters called for more transparency and engagement with the PvP community, suggesting that ZOS consult experienced PvP streamers and players.
Other suggestions included reverting queue systems and addressing long-standing issues like group stacking.
Insults Toward Brian Wheeler:
While a minority, some posts crossed the line from critique to personal attacks. These focused less on constructive feedback and more on undermining his competence or ridiculing his efforts.
Conclusion
This thread primarily reflects a passionate community seeking improvements for PvP in The Elder Scrolls Online. While most feedback is fair and constructive, a small subset of posts contains direct insults targeting @ZOS_BrianWheeler. The majority of participants, however, aim to foster positive change through their critiques.
Would you like this analysis in a document or a visual representation?
I think most people in this thread are doing a good job at being critical, but fair, in discussing how the livestream failed to inspire confidence in their hope that the issues that plague combat currently will ever be addressed in any meaningful way.
The thread should not be locked because a minority of posters failed to present their frustrations in a constructive way. The majority of us are here to help ZOS grow and make better choices moving forward.
Well, we also don’t know how many comments got removed from the thread by ZOS because they went over the line. Same with other sources of media where they say stuff. They could have also removed entire other threads that were nothing but negative.
1 -
Zabagad✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Wow!I decided to run this through AI to see if I was crazy. Here's what it found:
[...]
Overall I have the same feeling about this thread (this is nice to see for the AI and my personal assessment
) - but to get this with so much details from an AI is astonishing to me.
Can you say (in short) from/with which AI this was done and what your question was and/or how much you had to edit the result?
Again: I agree on the result and I'm impressed...PC EU (noCP AD) Grey/Grau AD
Please raise the population caps.
@ZOS - Convert the heal on "Hardened Ward" into a HoT pls.2 -
Aldoss✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Wow!I decided to run this through AI to see if I was crazy. Here's what it found:
[...]
Overall I have the same feeling about this thread (this is nice to see for the AI and my personal assessment ) - but to get this with so much details from an AI is astonishing to me.
Can you say (in short) from/with which AI this was done and what your question was and/or how much you had to edit the result?
Again: I agree on the result and I'm impressed...
This is ChatGPT. I spent some time training it to display the final output in the format I wanted before presenting it with the final prompt that I used. Here's the prompt:
I need you to serve as an expert in online community communications. I'll need you to analyze a forum thread for all posts and to determine whether or not the verbiage and sentiment being presented is fairly critical or insulting towards a particular ZOS developer named Brian Wheeler (@ZOS_BrianWheeler). There are 11 pages of posts currently. I will give you a link to page 1 and you will analyze it, but withhold any results until all 11 pages have been analyzed. After you're done analyzing a page, please ask for the next page link and I will provide it. Once all 11 pages have been analyzed, I will want you to display a synopsis of the entire thread that outlines whether or not the majority of posts are insulting or are fairly critical of ZOS. You may include any other sentiment information that you find to be relevant. Please track how many unique posters there are in the entire thread to ensure that posters who are posting multiple posts with similar sentiment are not affecting the sample. Are you ready?
@OtarTheMad that's fair to point out, however the last time a moderator said comments were removed was back on page 4 and @manukartofanu specifically said, "people who have recently joined the discussion". It didn't compute to me.Edited by Aldoss on December 9, 2024 6:03AM10 -
Pelanora✭✭✭✭✭
✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »A chef's job is cooking. A video game developer's job is not playing PvP.
The bandwagon bullying of this dev really needs to stop. He isn't disrespecting you by not being as good at a video game as you want him to be. It's not his job to perform for our entertainment. It's not his job to play pvp at any particular skill level.
The complaints against the lack of care in Cyrodiil are valid.
The complaints about this dev not being good at PVP are not.
Being not good at playing the game is one thing, lacking core knowledge of the game fundamentals for an aspect of the game you are the lead for, is another problem altogether.
I am in aircraft maintenance, I do not know how to fly aircraft, but in my area of expertise, I can take them apart and put them back together correctly. If I couldn't I would be fired.
And he can develop things and has clearly lead the development of a successful game that's made 2 billion dollars. Claiming he doesn't know his job because he wasn't playing the game well or because he didn't recall the name of a one skill out of hundreds while simultaneously juggling three different tasks is preposterous.
Isn't it the art director, story director, zone design director, housing director, that made them 2 billion? Is it really only the combat?Edited by Pelanora on December 9, 2024 6:49AM5 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »A chef's job is cooking. A video game developer's job is not playing PvP.
The bandwagon bullying of this dev really needs to stop. He isn't disrespecting you by not being as good at a video game as you want him to be. It's not his job to perform for our entertainment. It's not his job to play pvp at any particular skill level.
The complaints against the lack of care in Cyrodiil are valid.
The complaints about this dev not being good at PVP are not.
Being not good at playing the game is one thing, lacking core knowledge of the game fundamentals for an aspect of the game you are the lead for, is another problem altogether.
I am in aircraft maintenance, I do not know how to fly aircraft, but in my area of expertise, I can take them apart and put them back together correctly. If I couldn't I would be fired.
And he can develop things and has clearly lead the development of a successful game that's made 2 billion dollars. Claiming he doesn't know his job because he wasn't playing the game well or because he didn't recall the name of a one skill out of hundreds while simultaneously juggling three different tasks is preposterous.
Isn't it the art director, story director, zone design director, housing director, that made them 2 billion? Is it really only the combat?
I didn't say he was the only one. I said he was a lead and he is
Edit
He's been a lead the entire time.
10 year old interview
https://youtu.be/AiiGHNaCTew?si=inb9Xztm1rSxGWbb
12 year old interview
https://youtu.be/T1Qg-h3694A?si=8T1snTT_5-WYJ5HC
Edited by spartaxoxo on December 9, 2024 8:18AM0 -
StarOfElyon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭silky_soft wrote: »Why is defile so weak?
Why are cost increase poisons so weak?
Why is healing absorption so weak and rare?
Why has negate not been added to scribing?
Why isn't there more access to remove shields via scribing?
Why havnt skill lines without active skills been prioritised scribing skills?
Why aren't there scribing ultimate skills?
Why isn't there a way for off balance to knock players out of block?
Why doesn't block casting ramp the cost of block, like streak, dodge and cloak ramps?
Why can't we steal or siphon HoT, shield or buff from a target, even via an ultimate?
Why does streak ignore sprint cap and allow regen?
Why am I always desync?
Why do my heavy attacks just not work anymore?
Why does rush of agony pull me from across the map?
Why don't we have voluntary surveys in game?
Why hasn't the range on battleground sigil activation been increased yet?
Why doesn't a team in 8v8 getting face rolled get free sigils in spawn?
Why is there still 8m free range added to battlespirit and not on to the reach passive?
Why is there no global cooldown for all proc sets?
Why is there no cabybaras in tamriel?
I agree with the bolded portions. Heal absorption should be in Hungry Scythe.
World skill lines could use more attention.
Rush of Agony not giving CC immunity is BROKEN!!!!!4 -
StarOfElyon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭OtarTheMad wrote: »So when the players and commenters chased Rich away from streaming, I'm still sad.
The tail should not wag the dog IMHO
I disagree with this. We (the PvP community) did not chase Rich away. I'll definitely agree that some people made way more of a stink about the comments his wife made than should have been made, but the decision to stop streaming was likely not Rich's. You have control of your actions and if, when faced with adversity, you shy away and call it quits, that's on you, no one else.
That moment was honestly pretty pivotal for the public perception of the relationship between ZOS and its playerbase. PvPers were upset (and for good reason) and a comment was made, not even by Rich, that showed a complete lack of empathy for their frustrations. Also, here we are years later, and what's changed? Has balance been fixed? Has lag been fixed? Has cyro been touched?
Had ZOS acknowledged the community and their frustrations and actually made steps to correct them, Rich might still be streaming and highlighting the game. The PvPers would flock around him. Just like Brian, Rich was not a great PvPer and no one cared about it because no one expected him to be. His stream was a net positive and I hope that he and the higher ups choose to bring it back.
I loved that stream, despite my frustrations with PvP. I was subbed. I'd love to have Rich back streaming again.
I loved his stream too and I did not care if he or any dev is good at the game, it was entertaining and informative. The comment was blown WAY out of proportion too. Everyone was laughing in chat, including the person who asked it.
We all got so much information from Rich about the game during his streams, it was great for communication. Hopefully it’s brought back.
Yeah I really miss Rich's streams. I hope @ZOS_Kevin and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom can pass that along.3 -
Aldoss✭✭✭✭✭
✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »A chef's job is cooking. A video game developer's job is not playing PvP.
The bandwagon bullying of this dev really needs to stop. He isn't disrespecting you by not being as good at a video game as you want him to be. It's not his job to perform for our entertainment. It's not his job to play pvp at any particular skill level.
The complaints against the lack of care in Cyrodiil are valid.
The complaints about this dev not being good at PVP are not.
Being not good at playing the game is one thing, lacking core knowledge of the game fundamentals for an aspect of the game you are the lead for, is another problem altogether.
I am in aircraft maintenance, I do not know how to fly aircraft, but in my area of expertise, I can take them apart and put them back together correctly. If I couldn't I would be fired.
And he can develop things and has clearly lead the development of a successful game that's made 2 billion dollars. Claiming he doesn't know his job because he wasn't playing the game well or because he didn't recall the name of a one skill out of hundreds while simultaneously juggling three different tasks is preposterous.
Isn't it the art director, story director, zone design director, housing director, that made them 2 billion? Is it really only the combat?
I didn't say he was the only one. I said he was a lead and he is
Edit
He's been a lead the entire time.
10 year old interviewhttps://youtu.be/AiiGHNaCTew?si=inb9Xztm1rSxGWbb
12 year old interviewhttps://youtu.be/T1Qg-h3694A?si=8T1snTT_5-WYJ5HC
If it's fair to associate a lead developer's involvement with their game's successes, then it must also be fair to associate a lead developer's involvement with their game's failures.
Combat is not in a good place right now and it hasn't been for years.
Yes, this game has generated over $2B, but that doesn't mean that everything in this game is fine. Our issues (the ones being presented in this thread) are not just in our heads. They exist and they've been ignored or exacerbated over the course of dozens of updates that further these frustrations.
I'll say again, if combat were fine, no one would have had an issue with the stream. But that's not how this went down, so here we are.15 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If it's fair to associate a lead developer's involvement with their game's successes, then it must also be fair to associate a lead developer's involvement with their game's failures.
I never argued otherwise nor said there were not issues with PvP. As I have said multiple times, the complaints about PvP are valid. IMO There are definite issues and I hope the constructive criticism is heeded.Edited by spartaxoxo on December 9, 2024 2:23PM0 -
XSTRONG✭✭✭✭✭StarOfElyon wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »So when the players and commenters chased Rich away from streaming, I'm still sad.
The tail should not wag the dog IMHO
I disagree with this. We (the PvP community) did not chase Rich away. I'll definitely agree that some people made way more of a stink about the comments his wife made than should have been made, but the decision to stop streaming was likely not Rich's. You have control of your actions and if, when faced with adversity, you shy away and call it quits, that's on you, no one else.
That moment was honestly pretty pivotal for the public perception of the relationship between ZOS and its playerbase. PvPers were upset (and for good reason) and a comment was made, not even by Rich, that showed a complete lack of empathy for their frustrations. Also, here we are years later, and what's changed? Has balance been fixed? Has lag been fixed? Has cyro been touched?
Had ZOS acknowledged the community and their frustrations and actually made steps to correct them, Rich might still be streaming and highlighting the game. The PvPers would flock around him. Just like Brian, Rich was not a great PvPer and no one cared about it because no one expected him to be. His stream was a net positive and I hope that he and the higher ups choose to bring it back.
I loved that stream, despite my frustrations with PvP. I was subbed. I'd love to have Rich back streaming again.
I loved his stream too and I did not care if he or any dev is good at the game, it was entertaining and informative. The comment was blown WAY out of proportion too. Everyone was laughing in chat, including the person who asked it.
We all got so much information from Rich about the game during his streams, it was great for communication. Hopefully it’s brought back.
Yeah I really miss Rich's streams. I hope @ZOS_Kevin and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom can pass that along.
Yeah it was fun watching a dev stream the game and Rich actually was good at streaming talking to chat and stuff and you could see alot of people liked it.
I hope he tries it again!2 -
manukartofanu✭✭✭✭manukartofanu wrote: »Honestly, it's sad to read what people who recently joined the discussion are writing. An excessive focus on one person is harmful and won't lead to anything good. When you write, think about your goals. Right now, I have a strong feeling that some of the newcomers here want to insult those who have been trying to have a constructive conversation, while others are trying to insult the developers as much as possible. What do you even want? For everyone to get offended at each other?
This comment confused me because I've been active this entire time and I've only noticed a very few number of posts that I'd deem cross the threshold into non-constructive/insulting verbiage and tone. I decided to run this through AI to see if I was crazy. Here's what it found:
Overall Thread Analysis
Total Pages Analyzed: 11
Total Unique Posters: Approximately 85 (some repeat posters)
Dominant Emotional Themes:
Critical (fair): A significant number of posts offer critiques focused on gameplay issues or the livestream's content, staying within constructive boundaries.
Supportive: Several users express appreciation for the effort, acknowledging challenges of public engagement and livestream participation.
Frustrated/Disheartened: Many posters show deep frustration with the PvP state and Brian Wheeler’s apparent lack of familiarity with certain mechanics.
Sentiment Breakdown
Sentiment | Number of Posts| Description
Critical (Fair) | ~80% | Focused critiques of game balance, tank meta, and combat systems.
Supportive | ~10% | Commends ZOS efforts and empathizes with the livestreaming challenges.
Frustrated (Mild)| ~7% | Expresses dissatisfaction with PvP balance or perceived neglect.
Insulting | ~3% | Dismissive comments toward Brian Wheeler, using personal attacks.
Critical or Insulting Posts Targeting @ZOS_BrianWheeler
Total Posts Referencing @ZOS_BrianWheeler: ~60 directly mention him by name or role.
Insulting Posts: Approximately 12 posts can be classified as insulting.
Nature of Insults:
Several posts claim he is unqualified or unfamiliar with PvP mechanics.
Dismissive remarks about his performance in the livestream, calling it embarrassing.
Some comments make generalized statements about his ability to lead PvP content development.
Examples of Phrases Used:
“Brian doesn’t even know his own game.”
“It’s a joke that he’s leading PvP combat design.”
“Why is someone so out of touch with PvP even in charge?”
Key Observations
Critical but Fair Feedback (Majority):
Most posts, though critical, focus on addressing game balance issues, such as the prevalence of the tank meta, cross-healing in Cyrodiil, and the "Rush of Agony" set.
Users expressed disappointment in the livestream as it failed to address major community concerns or inspire confidence in future PvP changes.
Support for ZOS and Livestream Effort:
A smaller but present subset of users empathized with the difficulties of livestreaming and appreciated Brian Wheeler’s willingness to participate, despite his performance criticisms.
Constructive Suggestions:
Many posters called for more transparency and engagement with the PvP community, suggesting that ZOS consult experienced PvP streamers and players.
Other suggestions included reverting queue systems and addressing long-standing issues like group stacking.
Insults Toward Brian Wheeler:
While a minority, some posts crossed the line from critique to personal attacks. These focused less on constructive feedback and more on undermining his competence or ridiculing his efforts.
Conclusion
This thread primarily reflects a passionate community seeking improvements for PvP in The Elder Scrolls Online. While most feedback is fair and constructive, a small subset of posts contains direct insults targeting @ZOS_BrianWheeler. The majority of participants, however, aim to foster positive change through their critiques.
Would you like this analysis in a document or a visual representation?
I think most people in this thread are doing a good job at being critical, but fair, in discussing how the livestream failed to inspire confidence in their hope that the issues that plague combat currently will ever be addressed in any meaningful way.
The thread should not be locked because a minority of posters failed to present their frustrations in a constructive way. The majority of us are here to help ZOS grow and make better choices moving forward.
Thank you for the comprehensive analysis of the entire thread. It confirms my point of view that there is no mass bullying of Brian here. Until recently, I considered this thread to be quite constructive. Since I was speaking only about recently joined people, naturally, I could not have been referring to any of your messages (even recent ones), nor to the messages of other people in this thread who have been participating in it for a long time. Specifically, I can clarify that by "recently" I meant no more than the last two days, if not less.
I believe that the statements of some people who have recently joined the thread provoke others into having an unconstructive conversation because they have to respond to false accusations and, in particular, discuss Brian personally again. This leads to nothing but pointless arguments. That’s exactly why I wrote what I wrote.
Perhaps this clarification no longer holds much relevance, but just in case, I asked ChatGPT whether your analysis could be used as a rebuttal to my claim.
ChatGPT's response:
Analyzing all the messages in the thread without considering the context emphasized by manukartofanu might be logically incorrect or insufficiently accurate. Let’s break this situation down further.
The Main Issue with Analyzing "All Messages"
Focus on a Specific Group of Messages:
Manukartofanu explicitly highlights the behavior of newcomers and their recent comments, which they find offensive or unconstructive. If, in Aldoss's second claim, the analysis includes all messages in the thread, including older ones and those unrelated to newcomers, the essence of the discussion is distorted as the specific context is lost.
Incorrect Sampling:
If the problem is concentrated within the last messages or those from newcomers, but the analysis includes hundreds of others, the proportion of unconstructive messages in the overall dataset will inevitably appear small. However, this does not refute manukartofanu's claim, which points to a specific problem within the recent subset of comments.
Logical Oversight:
Aldoss's claim overlooks the importance of temporal and contextual specificity emphasized by manukartofanu. This conflation of older and broader messages with recent and specific ones leads to a fallacy of misrepresentation: instead of assessing the behavior of newcomers and their impact, the analysis aggregates unrelated data, obscuring the issue.
An Argument in Favor of Manukartofanu
If all problematic messages referred to by manukartofanu are indeed concentrated in the last comments or those authored by newcomers, then the percentage of unconstructive messages across the entire thread becomes irrelevant. The crux of the issue lies in the temporal context (recent messages) and the social context (behavior of newcomers).
How to Refine the Analysis
To align Aldoss's broader analysis with manukartofanu's focused concern, the following steps should be taken:
Restrict the analysis to recent messages or only those written by newcomers.
Compare the number of unconstructive messages among this subset to the total number of new comments, rather than the entire thread.
Conclusion
The conclusions in Aldoss's analysis may be logically incomplete if they fail to align with manukartofanu's focus. If the issue is concentrated in the most recent messages or specifically attributed to newcomers, analyzing the entire thread becomes irrelevant and potentially misleading. Narrowing the scope to address the stated problem would yield a more accurate and relevant analysis.
I also noticed that there was some rephrasing of what I wrote in the analysis, so I clarified a couple of points.
Are people who recently joined are identified as a newcomers?
ChatGPT:
Yes, in the context of this statement, the term "newcomers" appears to refer to individuals who recently joined the discussion. This identification is based on the temporal aspect of their participation, as the writer associates "recently joined" with being "newcomers."
Are poeople who recently joined the discussion could left non-recent comments?
ChatGPT:
No, people who recently joined the discussion could not have left non-recent comments by definition. If someone has only recently started participating, their contributions would naturally be limited to recent comments. For them to have left non-recent comments, they would need to have been participating earlier, which contradicts the idea of them being newcomers.
I am generally inclined to approach things and statements with skepticism. I understand that poorly chosen phrases and terms can lead to misinterpretation. However, in this case, the choice of terms by ChatGPT and the explanations are overall clear to me.
And once again, thank you very much for the analysis. I hope it will be taken seriously by the other participants.0 -
kiwi_tea✭✭✭I don't know if I want to live in a world where ChatGPT constructs our arguments for us.
8 -
StarOfElyon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »A chef's job is cooking. A video game developer's job is not playing PvP.
The bandwagon bullying of this dev really needs to stop. He isn't disrespecting you by not being as good at a video game as you want him to be. It's not his job to perform for our entertainment. It's not his job to play pvp at any particular skill level.
The complaints against the lack of care in Cyrodiil are valid.
The complaints about this dev not being good at PVP are not.
Criticism is not bullying.5 -
StarOfElyon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »A chef's job is cooking. A video game developer's job is not playing PvP.
The bandwagon bullying of this dev really needs to stop. He isn't disrespecting you by not being as good at a video game as you want him to be. It's not his job to perform for our entertainment. It's not his job to play pvp at any particular skill level.
The complaints against the lack of care in Cyrodiil are valid.
The complaints about this dev not being good at PVP are not.
You 100% nailed this.
They nailed a straw man.1 -
XSTRONG✭✭✭✭✭CatoUnchained wrote: »StarOfElyon wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »So when the players and commenters chased Rich away from streaming, I'm still sad.
The tail should not wag the dog IMHO
I disagree with this. We (the PvP community) did not chase Rich away. I'll definitely agree that some people made way more of a stink about the comments his wife made than should have been made, but the decision to stop streaming was likely not Rich's. You have control of your actions and if, when faced with adversity, you shy away and call it quits, that's on you, no one else.
That moment was honestly pretty pivotal for the public perception of the relationship between ZOS and its playerbase. PvPers were upset (and for good reason) and a comment was made, not even by Rich, that showed a complete lack of empathy for their frustrations. Also, here we are years later, and what's changed? Has balance been fixed? Has lag been fixed? Has cyro been touched?
Had ZOS acknowledged the community and their frustrations and actually made steps to correct them, Rich might still be streaming and highlighting the game. The PvPers would flock around him. Just like Brian, Rich was not a great PvPer and no one cared about it because no one expected him to be. His stream was a net positive and I hope that he and the higher ups choose to bring it back.
I loved that stream, despite my frustrations with PvP. I was subbed. I'd love to have Rich back streaming again.
I loved his stream too and I did not care if he or any dev is good at the game, it was entertaining and informative. The comment was blown WAY out of proportion too. Everyone was laughing in chat, including the person who asked it.
We all got so much information from Rich about the game during his streams, it was great for communication. Hopefully it’s brought back.
Yeah I really miss Rich's streams. I hope @ZOS_Kevin and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom can pass that along.
Yeah it was fun watching a dev stream the game and Rich actually was good at streaming talking to chat and stuff and you could see alot of people liked it.
I hope he tries it again!
[snip]
I dont know about that video but I think it was fun watching the streams even tho Rich couldnt answer every single question chat had.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on December 9, 2024 5:26PM2 -
Aldoss✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don't know if I want to live in a world where ChatGPT constructs our arguments for us.
Agreed. AI is amazing tool for data analysis. I think if @manukartofanu were to have run their prompt they shared, used the information to further refine mine, and then replied with that more nuanced output, it would have been better.
So I did that. I asked the AI to rerun the analysis, but to only capture a sample starting on page 10, which has posts from Dec 6th on.
I'll spare the copy-pasta and just post this:
Unique posters: 12
Total posts: 27
Number of posts flagged as "insulting": 2
Number of posts flagged as "critical (fair)": 11
The rest of the posts are mildly critical or supportive
This will be my last post on this tangent because I want to remain on topic. All I'm trying to do here is to bring some objective data into the mix because a minority of posts here are truly "insulting".
When it gets stated repeatedly that posters are insulting (when they objectively aren't), it creates a narrative that influences the perspectives of new people that join the thread.
The majority of us here are being fairly critical of ZOS and are offering our time and feedback in the hopes of helping them make better decisions moving forward and to learn from this mistake.4 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I don't know if I want to live in a world where ChatGPT constructs our arguments for us.
Agreed. AI is amazing tool for data analysis. I think if @manukartofanu were to have run their prompt they shared, used the information to further refine mine, and then replied with that more nuanced output, it would have been better.
So I did that. I asked the AI to rerun the analysis, but to only capture a sample starting on page 10, which has posts from Dec 6th on.
I'll spare the copy-pasta and just post this:
Unique posters: 12
Total posts: 27
Number of posts flagged as "insulting": 2
Number of posts flagged as "critical (fair)": 11
The rest of the posts are mildly critical or supportive
This will be my last post on this tangent because I want to remain on topic. All I'm trying to do here is to bring some objective data into the mix because a minority of posts here are truly "insulting".
When it gets stated repeatedly that posters are insulting (when they objectively aren't), it creates a narrative that influences the perspectives of new people that join the thread.
The majority of us here are being fairly critical of ZOS and are offering our time and feedback in the hopes of helping them make better decisions moving forward and to learn from this mistake.
Does ChatGPT also flag the deleted posts that were over the top? Because there were a number that were pretty bad and have since been removed. Thus the analysis is flawed because it can't account for that, and I think continuing to belabour this point is ... uh ... pointless.
There's been some really good input in this thread so far, but stating that it's all been respectful is just plain untrue. The moderators are just really on top of it, for the most part.4 -
CatoUnchained✭✭✭✭CatoUnchained wrote: »StarOfElyon wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »So when the players and commenters chased Rich away from streaming, I'm still sad.
The tail should not wag the dog IMHO
I disagree with this. We (the PvP community) did not chase Rich away. I'll definitely agree that some people made way more of a stink about the comments his wife made than should have been made, but the decision to stop streaming was likely not Rich's. You have control of your actions and if, when faced with adversity, you shy away and call it quits, that's on you, no one else.
That moment was honestly pretty pivotal for the public perception of the relationship between ZOS and its playerbase. PvPers were upset (and for good reason) and a comment was made, not even by Rich, that showed a complete lack of empathy for their frustrations. Also, here we are years later, and what's changed? Has balance been fixed? Has lag been fixed? Has cyro been touched?
Had ZOS acknowledged the community and their frustrations and actually made steps to correct them, Rich might still be streaming and highlighting the game. The PvPers would flock around him. Just like Brian, Rich was not a great PvPer and no one cared about it because no one expected him to be. His stream was a net positive and I hope that he and the higher ups choose to bring it back.
I loved that stream, despite my frustrations with PvP. I was subbed. I'd love to have Rich back streaming again.
I loved his stream too and I did not care if he or any dev is good at the game, it was entertaining and informative. The comment was blown WAY out of proportion too. Everyone was laughing in chat, including the person who asked it.
We all got so much information from Rich about the game during his streams, it was great for communication. Hopefully it’s brought back.
Yeah I really miss Rich's streams. I hope @ZOS_Kevin and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom can pass that along.
Yeah it was fun watching a dev stream the game and Rich actually was good at streaming talking to chat and stuff and you could see alot of people liked it.
I hope he tries it again!
[snip]
I dont know about that video but I think it was fun watching the streams even tho Rich couldnt answer every single question chat had.
[edited to remove quote]
See what I mean now?1 -
ZOS_IcymodGreetings,
After removing a few non-constructive, bashing and trolling posts, we would like to ask everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, as well as keeping things civil and constructive.- Bashing and Slanderous Comments: We do not permit the bashing of individuals (including ZeniMax employees), groups, or other companies on our forums. We believe that doing so is neither constructive nor in spirit of our game and community.
- Trolling or Baiting: The act of trolling is defined as something that is created for the intent to provoke conflict, shock others, or to elicit a strong negative or emotional reaction. It’s okay and very normal to disagree with others, and even to debate, but provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community. If you do not have something constructive or meaningful to add to a discussion, we strongly recommend you refrain from posting in that thread, and find another discussion to participate in instead. It is also not constructive or helpful to publicly call out others and accuse them of trolling, or call them a troll—please refrain from doing so. If you genuinely believe someone is trolling, please report the post or thread to the ESO Team, and leave it at that.
3