Feedback on Yesterday's Battleground Brawl Livestream

i11ionward

dcrush wrote: »

After some Q&A disasters of the past years (ZOS making up their own questions and U35 Q&A just being shelved), bugs and balance issues consistently going live after they have been called out on the pts, changes such as the grim focus permaglow where feedback is asked [snip] I have zero faith that ZOS will ever improve their communication. You cannot get to ten years of running a game and still be this bad at communicating.

[snip]

I will happily be proven wrong, but I am not my holding my breath.

I have been playing ESO for many years and it seems to me that nothing will change in this game.

But this topic is still open and it contains constructive responses from the developers.

There is also this topic, and it also contains responses from the developers https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/666306/population-shrinking-please-do-something/p1

For myself, I conclude that with their responses, the developers still admit that there are problems in the game.

For me, these two topics are the last hope for changes in the game. I expect the first steps (not big changes) of positive changes in the next update. If these steps do not happen, then I am seriously considering the possibility of stopping playing ESO.

[edited to remove quote]

Coo_PnT

Alaztor91 wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

We should be asking ZOS to form a dedicated PvP dev team, even if it's just 2 people instead of 1 that would make a big difference.

The moment they make an announcement like this my wife and I will turn our subs back on and start buying chapters and crowns again.

Afaik there used to be a dedicated PvE and a dedicated PvP Dev teams, but they got fused into one when Wrobel left and Wheeler took over as Lead Combat Designer (Wheeler was the PvP Lead before that).

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/453748/combat-team-news-and-updates/p1

This is the first time I have learned such information. Thank you for this valuable information.

I personally would like to see something done about the cross heel issue, BG of course I would like to see it thrive, but I would like to see a little more love for Cyrodiil.
I think there were enough people in Cyrodiil on weekdays during Asian time on PC/NA about a year ago that it was locked on alliances on weekends, and even on weekdays there were a good number of people and it was playable, though not comfortable. A little bit of something love might bring people back. And I hope that is the case.

LadyGP

Aldoss wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

HazierBlue wrote: »

It blows my mind that 10 years later we are still asking/answering the question "How do we communicate better". I'm not a heavy gamer but I don't think I've seen this anywhere else.

We should be asking ZOS to form a dedicated PvP dev team, even if it's just 2 people instead of 1 that would make a big difference.

The moment they make an announcement like this my wife and I will turn our subs back on and start buying chapters and crowns again.

Second this.

dcrush wrote: »

After some Q&A disasters of the past years (ZOS making up their own questions and U35 Q&A just being shelved), bugs and balance issues consistently going live after they have been called out on the pts, changes such as the grim focus permaglow where feedback is asked [snip] I have zero faith that ZOS will ever improve their communication. You cannot get to ten years of running a game and still be this bad at communicating.

[snip]

I will happily be proven wrong, but I am not my holding my breath.

[snip]
[edited for bashing & to remove quote]

Poss

All I really want is better communication and transparency surrounding the future of Cyrodiil. Then we can work towards better balance. Tell us if you plan to support it in the future or if you are willing just just allow it to die. A majority of people who frequent PvP play in Cyrodiil, I haven’t even tried the new battlegrounds as they’ve always been plagued by 50k health wardens.

Cyrodiil has always had the potential to be the next Fortnite phenomenon and I stand by this statement however cringe it is. No gamemode compares to the genius of this large scale openworld player vs player with siege warefare. I still marvel at the concept. Yeh it’s flawed, it always has been but we love it.

Xirks

Poss wrote: »

I haven’t even tried the new battlegrounds as they’ve always been plagued by 50k health wardens.

Cyrodiil has always had the potential to be the next Fortnite phenomenon and I stand by this statement however cringe it is. No gamemode compares to the genius of this large scale openworld player vs player with siege warefare. I still marvel at the concept. Yeh it’s flawed, it always has been but we love it.

The tank meta is destroying all of eso pvp, unfortunately it seems to be encouraged by our lead combat dev...
Anyone will say that eso has the most unique and best pvp, the one time queue for endless open world pvp is the single greatest thing in any game. [snip]

[edited for discussing moderator action(s)]

NotNi.ya

I don't mean this as a roast or to be disrespectful, but as React mentioned in his post, it's concerning that the person responsible for PvP doesn't seem to have answers to very basic questions. PvP in this game has been left in a poor state, and this lack of knowledge highlights how little attention it has received from the developers. It's disappointing because it gives the impression that PvP has been neglected. For those who don't engage in PvP, it might not be as clear, but for those of us who do, it's frustrating to see how disconnected the developers seem to be from it.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom, to be honest, it’s hard to see how communication can improve if there is no meaningful effort to engage with the community in the first place. Take the performance thread, for example, seven months of issues with little more than a generic, copy-pasta response, often followed by defensive delays. Games like Destiny have set a great example with their communication, they’re always open, honest about their shortcomings, and actively work on fixes rather than just talking about them.

Lately, I've found myself drifting away from ESO. I log in twice a week for a trial core and then don’t touch the game again until the following week. Honestly, I dread logging in now. The lack of communication, the absence of meaningful fixes, and the way the stream was handled just made me feel even more disconnected. I don’t want to continue investing time in a game where it feels like the people behind it don’t understand what they’ve created.

I really hope this feedback doesn’t get deleted.

LadyGP

NotNi.ya wrote: »

I don't mean this as a roast or to be disrespectful, but as React mentioned in his post, it's concerning that the person responsible for PvP doesn't seem to have answers to very basic questions. PvP in this game has been left in a poor state, and this lack of knowledge highlights how little attention it has received from the developers. It's disappointing because it gives the impression that PvP has been neglected. For those who don't engage in PvP, it might not be as clear, but for those of us who do, it's frustrating to see how disconnected the developers seem to be from it.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom, to be honest, it’s hard to see how communication can improve if there is no meaningful effort to engage with the community in the first place. Take the performance thread, for example, seven months of issues with little more than a generic, copy-pasta response, often followed by defensive delays. Games like Destiny have set a great example with their communication, they’re always open, honest about their shortcomings, and actively work on fixes rather than just talking about them.

Lately, I've found myself drifting away from ESO. I log in twice a week for a trial core and then don’t touch the game again until the following week. Honestly, I dread logging in now. The lack of communication, the absence of meaningful fixes, and the way the stream was handled just made me feel even more disconnected. I don’t want to continue investing time in a game where it feels like the people behind it don’t understand what they’ve created.

I really hope this feedback doesn’t get deleted.

Look at 343i (now Halo Studios) handled that disaster of a game when it launched. Someone in leadership got infront of a camera each month and they did an hour long video session talking with developers about how they were stacking bugs, trying to isolate the root causes of all the problems, what they did, what has worked, what setbacks were, and they even explained their logic as to why some things were fixed before other things (a lot of "oh that makes sense" moments happened).

I'm not asking for this by any means... but just a basic forum post... maybe once a week outlining hey.. here is where we are at... here is what the team has tried thus far... here is what is working and what isn't etc... would go a long way.

"Nothing new to update" for 7 straight months... is...to put it bluntly... unacceptable for any company lead alone a company with this much resources.

Tannus15

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey all, thank you for the additional replies - there are many good insights here. Increasing the amount of Q&As/AMAs we do, and adding more regular feedback surveys does seem doable. As Kevin touched on in this post earlier tonight, many of us are going to be out for Thanksgiving holiday, and we'll follow up when we return. We are making an effort to be here on the forums a bit more, and we don't want our lighter presence over the next week to send the wrong message. The Community team will still drop by as we're able in to check on things here. For those of you who celebrate, we hope you have a restful Thanksgiving with family and/or friends.

[snip]

What is there to ask about? What answer can you possible give other than acknowledging the service you are providing is horribly flawed and barely functional?

[snip]
[edited for bashing]

Tannus15

Seriously, get the whole team into a conference room and watch the entire stream together and see how great you feel about the game in it's current live state.

NotNi.ya

Tannus15 wrote: »

Seriously, get the whole team into a conference room and watch the entire stream together and see how great you feel about the game in it's current live state.

This is actually a really good idea.

Erickson9610

Reading through this thread, I get the impression that most players responding here want someone on ESO's dev team to be at the same level of mastery as they are — though I think it's unreasonable to expect a developer to play the game as much as a player does. The players don't have to develop the game during working hours and then play the game during non-working hours, after all.


I think it'd be nice if there was some level of understanding between the developers and the dedicated players who really know this game's ins and outs.

I say this for selfish reasons, of course — ZOS made some changes for Werewolf this year which didn't make any sense. Despite feedback that me and other players provided, nothing at all changed. I don't have a reason to expect that those changes were actually being playtested by a developer who cares or has a deep understanding of its mechanics like I do.


So in the context of PvP, I agree that it'd be nice if one of the developers knew as much as the community does about current balancing issues and pain points. I know I'd want someone at ZOS to care about the aspect of the game that I care the most about, after all.

As much as I wish ZOS would act on suggestions from the community (such as some of those Werewolf changes that I took issue with in U42) I can't imagine ZOS sees reason to. Maybe they just need more time to see how much better or worse the game feels for a variety of playstyles from popular and unpopular balance changes alike? It's frustrating because I can see how it affects my playstyles immediately.

kiwi_tea

I also think it is worth dropping another quick comment that the update cadence seems wrong for maintaining any sort of balance in PVP.

When something goes wrong in any update - a set that outperforms in a gamebreaking way, a bug that's *just* not urgent enough - everyone who PVPs is suddenly horribly conscious that it will probably be this way for months - if not years. That, more than anything, is why ESO updates are equally as dreaded as they are a source of excitement.

PVP needs more frequent maintenance than it gets. I don't know if that's something the devs can afford to give, but it is what the game mode would *need* to thrive.

Miracle19

kiwi_tea wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey all, thank you for the additional replies - there are many good insights here. Increasing the amount of Q&As/AMAs we do, and adding more regular feedback surveys does seem doable. As Kevin touched on in this post earlier tonight, many of us are going to be out for Thanksgiving holiday, and we'll follow up when we return. We are making an effort to be here on the forums a bit more, and we don't want our lighter presence over the next week to send the wrong message. The Community team will still drop by as we're able in to check on things here. For those of you who celebrate, we hope you have a restful Thanksgiving with family and/or friends.

I should have acknowledged what a watershed the new Battlegrounds feel like, despite all the criticism. More feedback would be amazing, because I know PVPers have come to think, after years and years of hearing nothing: "No news is bad news". It is so incredibly welcome to have something new, and it is clear that effort went into crafting the new mode. Lobby issues aside, 8v8 is a success in my book. It is chaotic fun! 4v4 will be a success-ish in the long term, once it ceases to be the default queue, and ceases to place people who wanted to queue 8v8 back into 4v4.

In 4v4 the biggest barrier to their success is the poor state of the PVP gameplay at this moment. I know a huge number of people in the PVP community have come to feel the situation in PVP is beyond fixing, and that it's well past the point of "too little, too late". I struggle to imagine how we might get PVP back to a healthy place where core skills and gameplay really matter more than heal-stacking and big proc damage. Making Battle Spirit restrict the number of same-name heals over time you can stack to one stack over what you cast yourself would be a major contribution. Even with such an enormous nerf, ball groups and cross heals would still be incredibly powerful, but it would take bar space away from ball groups in particular who would have to run a wider range of HoT skills to achieve the effect they can currently get just by stacking up a dozen radiating regens and echoing vigors on each other. Ball grouping is a skillful playstyle, but it is painfully overtuned with very little counterplay beyond running an opposing ball group. It also lags the whole region around these groups. In Cyrodiil you can currently tell a ballgroup is coming to a keep just by the drastic drop in framerate as they approach. The huge lag spikes they can create add to the fact that - even if you aren't bait for them - it is very hard to form much counterplay. Right now, with the sheer amount of healing over time they can stack, even the huge DoTs applied by multiple fire ballista can struggle to make a dent. You will sometimes see ball groups just run right through very, very hot killboxes on a breach, and almost immediately recover off any of the damage. Without sets like Azureblight that can punish big cross-healing clusters, siege is some of the only counterplay to a ball group, but the healing is still just too strong, and modern ball groups are too fast and snare-immune to be caught in siege very often.

The sheer power of cross healing really is one of the biggest issues PVP faces. It is evident in BGs too, where you get lobbies that go the full 15minutes with barely a single kill because there are just so many cross heals stacking up.

Some form of "trap" siege in Cyrodiil that circumvents Snowtreaders and Banner Bearer would be nice. Spike traps, etc. You could set it down and you get a few seconds of immobilise to siege or attack ball groups or zergs. A way for smaller - but organised - groups to have counterplay to large, coordinated healing swarms would make Cyrodiil less discouraging.

There is also the fact that very, very tanky builds can output enormous damage with proc-sets. I think Sypher during his stream after the official one even did a brief little thought experiment about having Battle Spirit apply a damage debuff once you go over a certain health threshold. That honestly doesn't sound like an awful idea.

You already have Battle Spirit. Please use it more, or otherwise implement more similar PVP-instance specific effects. It could be the solution to a great number of PVP's issues. The one thing I can't even imagine a solution to is the sheer scope of power creep that proc sets have created, and how completely ineffective nearly all the "core ability" counterplay can be in the face of their power. They just don't cost enough to players for the damage they put out, but players also need that level of damage to cut through the power of all the healing over time. If cross healing is nerfed - which needs to happen - the power creep is effectively worse due to the sudden drop in effective bulk, and I just don't have the slightest idea how to solve that issue.

Please communicate with us more, and if devs already have a clear, concise vision for the kind of PVP they want to give us, then please outline for us what that is. Right now I don't think anyone feels there is a clear, concise vision from the devs for what PVP should look like, and often the few insights we've had seem to directly contradict what has actually happened in ESO PVP. For example, devs seem to genuinely not *want* a high power proc meta, but nevertheless a very extreme one has developed. Another example, devs seem to genuinely want to foster set diversity, but then very few sets - including even most of the ones released in the most recent patch - sit well below the baseline level devs have created for a set to have PVP viability.

Lots of good points. Truly, the only way to semi address a lot of these points are proc sets. Proc sets need to stop being completely gutted. Azureblight is a very good example. It gave zerglings a way to kill coordinated ball groups, they complained and it was completely removed form pvp. So counter play no longer exist. That is just once recent example of this, there are many many more in history.

This is why it’s important for the decision makers to understand the PVP side thoroughly and the compounding effects of decisions made.

Anyhow, currently in group play, proc sets often aren’t even used. Cross buffing with buff sets are what’s used, because you are able to get giga stats, become immortal, and 1 shot your opponent. This is seen typically in 4man+ content. That is simply because, the stats you get from cross buffing are super high and it’s incredibly difficult to die or kill outside of 1gcd ulti dumps. You get maximum effect using buff sets and not procs.

In the past, you could use proc sets and other layered dots to out-pressure(counter) cross heal/buff stacking, and not have to play one dimensional in group play due to groups stacking cross heals and buffs.

It’s important from this day on, if the PvP community wishes to survive that instead of crying on public forums to nerf sets or play-styles, instead we should encourage players to learn the counter play-styles instead of simply killing a play-style(removing counters completely).

Aldoss

Here's about an hour of game time today during the toddler's nap. 4v4 and 8v8 group queue, because my wife and I always queue together. The result:



The first BG was a 4v4 deathmatch that went 500-0. It lasted nearly 10 minutes because it took a few minutes to get all the players in the lobby, then the last player alive played that stupid hide and seek game and even got their teammate kicked due to inactivity. Pointless match.

It then took 44 minutes (including time spent in the lobby) for us to get a BG that actually happened. Nearly 25% of our "game time" was spent sitting in the lobby waiting for players to join, with two of those lobbies getting cancelled. My wife specifically said, "I find it infuriating that I could be spending this time waiting for players in my house decorating it, but instead I have to sit here for 5 minutes and do nothing and it probably won't even run..."

This is in the afternoon ~2:30-3:30pm EST on a Sunday.

Please answer honestly @ZOS_JessicaFolsom and @ZOS_Kevin, is this experience a game that you personally would pay money for? Does this sound like the type of experience a AAA game studio should be proud of delivering for their customers?

Zabagad

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey all, it's late but I wanted to hop in and say thank you for the many constructive and thoughtful responses since I last posted, especially those from @Destai @ESO_Nightingale @ForumSavant and @Turtle_Bot. There are fair concerns, criticisms, and suggestions here. While I can't respond to all of them, please know I've read every post and we are discussing best steps forward. I know we've said this before, but we can always do better with our communication. In that line of thought, beyond forum posts what method do you all most prefer for answers to questions? What is the most visible? A Q&A post/article? A Reddit AMA? Something else?

Hi Jessica,
first of all I'm not a native speaker and therefore I didn't watch the stream yet.
(listen english is much harder then reading here)
So my impression of the stream is based on this thread here and what ppl wrote about it.

To answer you question: "what method do you all most prefer for answers to questions?" imo is not the biggest problem to "best steps forward."
The real problem are not answers to question in our direction - it's the missing input you get from us.
In my opinion the best steps forward would be to get the first hand informations from the player base about the current state of PvP and which are the major painpoints.

And for whatever reason the class rep program was ended ( I believe I remember that you (ZOS) said you are getting enough information from other sources) the stream seems to show that this is not the case.

And despite other voices here I don't think that we need big surveys on other platforms like reddit or social whatever - I don't even think that we need surveys here. (I guess they wouldn't hurt either)
I guess if you get to much input - like even reading in all threads here (pts+PvP) it will be hard to filter the real important points.
All you need is the input from some trustworthy players. (like class rep before)
I'm pretty sure that a brainstorming with the right 3-4 ppl here in this forum would be enough to explain 90% of the biggest painpoints. Sure not 100% would agree to all points and many would miss something - but the major problems would be on the table for you.

I don't know, but I guess the 3 ppl I will mention now, would be happy to help you in reagards to a better PvP experience.
I don't know how you could do the round table (meeting/discord/just a thread here in the forum) but if you would listen to the input from:
@React
@Joy_Division
@Turtle_Bot
(sorry if one of you don't want this or I put to much pressure on you! If you don't want this much of responsibility on you shoulder pls say so)
Maybe 1-2 more people could be chosen (via survey? some streamer?) - but I'm absolutly confident that even the input from these 3 is already enough.

Based on all I red here in this forum over the last years - I would trust these 3 ppl enough that they would be fair and not only looking for their class.
Again - sure there would be still a lot of ppl not completely happy, but that will always be the case.
I would be 99% sure that the result would be a huge step forward for the state of PvP.

So you can try to get input from the hole playerbase in whatever way - but I guess this way would be faster and enough to understand the main problems....

kiwi_tea

Miracle19 wrote: »

Truly, the only way to semi address a lot of these points are proc sets. Proc sets need to stop being completely gutted.

They need to do what everyone has been begging for years - carefully and iteratively buff the hundreds of old useless sets to have some level of viability (or just fun-ness). Give them relevant proc conditions. Give them unique buffs that might see fun and fringe-y use.

Looking over some of the PVP sets, a couple of things stand out.

1. The heavy tank-y sets (heal if block, etc) have the least value, mostly in the sense that they're traps for newer players, and won't grant much in return for running them. They generally *don't* grant the survivability they promise (although some of them did do that in No Proc years ago, and *might* still in BGs at a low MMR *if* run with enough impen trait).
2. The "X% less damage from players" sets *do* tend to grant survivability, and it is a kind that scales better with the HoT versus Proc meta, hence they have maintained relevance and are among my strongest backbar recommendations for casual players just starting out.
3. Craftable defensive and sustain sets just eat PVP defensive and sustain sets for breakfast. So many PVP-earned defensive sets just seem to offer build options that are inherently much weaker and less versatile than slapping on some Daedric Trickery, Wretched Vitality, etc.
4. Sets that eat up a whole five armor slots for an effect that comes easily from a skill almost never seem worth it. Many seem like relics from when those debuffs were relatively hard to source. Especially with scribing giving widespread access to the Defiles, etc, many of these sets could be reworked to be more fun and original.
5. A lot of the sets sound fun at first glance, but when it comes to building with them, they lose out quickly as you browse other options. A lot of these sets just present much too steep an opportunity cost to run very often, or ever.
6. Only about 3-5 of the first 20 sets would ever see *much* play in fairly casual PVP, and only a few of the others hit the "this would at least be fun to experiment with" on a casual or silly build marker.
7. Procs like "this much spell power when your opponent dodges" could be heaps of fun *if* they offered a boost comparable to the silliness and rareness of that proc. These sets never do that. They offer boosts that are in real content significantly weaker than most reliable sets. How often will you ever get many stacks of this? Running these is weaker than running a reliable, self-controlled proc like Clever Alchemist. You can't even get a "fun and silly" value out of them in their present state, especially because you need reliable boosts for your own healing. Nobody wants to fall short on healing cos nobody is dodging just now.
8. All the sets that proc when you're under 50% health, then do almost nothing, and then have a looooooong cooldown need a rework. "If under 50%" is almost always a silly proc condition in PVP, cos you're probably already dead unless maybe you're running Pariah's, and if you're running Pariah's, you're not running any of these silly "If under 50%" procs cos that would be a deathwish in terms of sustain and power. If you're not already dead, it's cos you're running much better sets. Find a better proc condition for them. Lower their cooldowns. Just give them some fun and some life.
9. Quite a lot of the sets would be a lot worse for a "casual PVP experience" than just rocking into PVP on a bulked out PVE build with Race Against Time slapped somewhere, and trying your best. There's just so many that have no conceivable use case even for fun.

StarOfElyon

Feedback from Eman on YouTube:

https://youtu.be/QDtOOh2jXhw?si=DJ-cFDAUlMm8HndU

ercknn

Maybe with all this constructive feed back ZOS will finally start addressing more time to improving the PvP experience.
Cross your fingers, us die hards can only hope.

Suddwrath

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey all, it's late but I wanted to hop in and say thank you for the many constructive and thoughtful responses since I last posted, especially those from @Destai @ESO_Nightingale @ForumSavant and @Turtle_Bot. There are fair concerns, criticisms, and suggestions here. While I can't respond to all of them, please know I've read every post and we are discussing best steps forward. I know we've said this before, but we can always do better with our communication. In that line of thought, beyond forum posts what method do you all most prefer for answers to questions? What is the most visible? A Q&A post/article? A Reddit AMA? Something else?

To be honest, I'm at a loss that this even being asked...10 years into this game's lifecycle and here we are getting the same "our communication can be better" acknowledgement and the communication team asking us how we would like to receive answers to questions. That feedback has already been given repeatedly by the community over the years, and what came from it?

Not to beat a dead horse or anything, but...
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/446497/so-about-that-communication-zos/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/528790/improving-communication#latest

Thumbless_Bot

Tannus15 wrote: »

Seriously, get the whole team into a conference room and watch the entire stream together and see how great you feel about the game in it's current live state.

There are things that most scrum teams do and they are called retrospectives and are a normal part of an Agile development shop and can be done after releases or after pr events like this.

A scrum team is a small group of people that work together to deliver a product or service, like software or features within a larger software package. In this case, battlegrounds.

Retrospectives usually include direct end user feedback.

End user feedback should also be brought to the scrum by the product owner. This is supposed to help define the roadmap.

I have a hard time believing zos does any of these things in any substantive way given how they cloister themselves away until their products are fully baked AND keep repeating the same mistakes by introducing things that no one wants and that make no sense from a product prospective.

This is more of a leadership issue at the top of the house imho because this is both a PR issue and a SDLC (software development life cycle) issue.

LadyGP

Aldoss wrote: »

Here's about an hour of game time today during the toddler's nap. 4v4 and 8v8 group queue, because my wife and I always queue together. The result:



The first BG was a 4v4 deathmatch that went 500-0. It lasted nearly 10 minutes because it took a few minutes to get all the players in the lobby, then the last player alive played that stupid hide and seek game and even got their teammate kicked due to inactivity. Pointless match.

It then took 44 minutes (including time spent in the lobby) for us to get a BG that actually happened. Nearly 25% of our "game time" was spent sitting in the lobby waiting for players to join, with two of those lobbies getting cancelled. My wife specifically said, "I find it infuriating that I could be spending this time waiting for players in my house decorating it, but instead I have to sit here for 5 minutes and do nothing and it probably won't even run..."

This is in the afternoon ~2:30-3:30pm EST on a Sunday.

Please answer honestly @ZOS_JessicaFolsom and @ZOS_Kevin, is this experience a game that you personally would pay money for? Does this sound like the type of experience a AAA game studio should be proud of delivering for their customers?

This feedback paired with the performance thread should be a leadership has a come to (ah ha) moment and puts everyone in a conference room and closes the door for a few hours till (stuff) gets figured out.

Insane that both of these have allowed to linger for such a long time and ZoS only coms is - yeah, we are aware.

@ZOS_Kevin

LadyGP

Suddwrath wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey all, it's late but I wanted to hop in and say thank you for the many constructive and thoughtful responses since I last posted, especially those from @Destai @ESO_Nightingale @ForumSavant and @Turtle_Bot. There are fair concerns, criticisms, and suggestions here. While I can't respond to all of them, please know I've read every post and we are discussing best steps forward. I know we've said this before, but we can always do better with our communication. In that line of thought, beyond forum posts what method do you all most prefer for answers to questions? What is the most visible? A Q&A post/article? A Reddit AMA? Something else?

To be honest, I'm at a loss that this even being asked...10 years into this game's lifecycle and here we are getting the same "our communication can be better" acknowledgement and the communication team asking us how we would like to receive answers to questions. That feedback has already been given repeatedly by the community over the years, and what came from it?

Not to beat a dead horse or anything, but...
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/446497/so-about-that-communication-zos/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/528790/improving-communication#latest

Jabbs_Giggity

DeadlySerious wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

So Sypher's first experience back was getting Rush combod...

Oh please, please tell us that there is a video of this out there somewhere. I'm begging you!

I'd like nothing more than to see ZOS employees go to Cyrodiil and get yanked around into RoA death balls over and over again, and from way out of the official range of the set. Maybe if they see just how RoA just sucks the fun out of Cyrodiil they'll make some changes to the set. It just seems like they don't know because they've never seen it first hand, so they need to. That's all. Not wishing ill on zos employees, just saying I think things might change if they saw how bad RoA is to deal with first hand.

So, I do run Rushing Agony on my NB with my group. I will say this...RA NEEDS to apply CC Immunity to anyone pulled, just like Dark Convergence. You should not be able to have three people pull with RA, then another pull again with DC. It's too much.

On the flip side, RA also needs to apply a 1s immunity to CC after the pull is complete. The reason I say this is because if you are applying a "gap closer" (I.E. Pull, teleport, etc.) there is way too many other pulls in the game, such as necro pull skill, sets, etc. that will pull you 10m off your target AFTER you complete the pull. Coupled with game lag, Immovable pots are not always reliable.

This 1s immunity to CC should apply to ALL listed gap closers.

Specific to the live stream, I think it's great that @ZOS_BrianWheeler came out to do this. Being a sweaty try-hard is not necessary to his job title. However, I will say that I think he may want to invest a little extra time looking back into core mechanics, set balance and skill balance for PVP. Otherwise, start taking community feedback a little more serious and open up dialogue with the community. I know the PVP Dev team is small, but c'mon.

As for things noted from this alone (aside from hundreds of community feedback threads), @ZOS_Kevin can we please, please get someone to take a hard look into the following AND get some official feedback?
1. Sources of damage mitigation - sets, skills, passives, traits review
2. Healing, cross-healing, cross-shielding
3. Pull sets having standard cool-downs and CC immunity across the board
4. Full balance pass on ALL classes
5. Tone-down on Proc Sets
6. Possibly reworking 5 pcs sets to 4 pc sets (moving all slots required down by one to 1,2,3,4 bonus - instead of 2,3,4,5) OR change mythics to it's own slot outside of the standard Helm, Shoulder, Chest, Hands, Waist, Legs, Feet, Amulet, Ring(s), Weapons.

Muizer

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

This is more of a leadership issue at the top of the house imho because this is both a PR issue and a SDLC (software development life cycle) issue.

I fear they may be trying to fit PvP development into the regimen of PvE development. Setting aside large blocks of time with a team assembled for the duration may work well for building one-off features from scratch, but that doesn't fit improving PvP in existing content. That would require a persistent, stable team working on a very short cycle of development and evaluation.

StarOfElyon

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

6. Possibly reworking 5 pcs sets to 4 pc sets (moving all slots required down by one to 1,2,3,4 bonus - instead of 2,3,4,5) OR change mythics to it's own slot outside of the standard Helm, Shoulder, Chest, Hands, Waist, Legs, Feet, Amulet, Ring(s), Weapons.

Why do this? That would create a lot of power that I don't believe we need.

Jabbs_Giggity

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

6. Possibly reworking 5 pcs sets to 4 pc sets (moving all slots required down by one to 1,2,3,4 bonus - instead of 2,3,4,5) OR change mythics to it's own slot outside of the standard Helm, Shoulder, Chest, Hands, Waist, Legs, Feet, Amulet, Ring(s), Weapons.

Why do this? That would create a lot of power that I don't believe we need.

Becuase as the game evolved, new options became available over time. 5 pc sets, 3 pc weapon sets, monster sets, arena sets, now mythics.

As we get more options for build crafting, less space is available to achieve build crafting. Most 5 pc sets have been nerfed, or moved on from. With hybridization and jewels of misrule, sets like bone pirate are long forgotten. As the tank meta increases, the need to have a front bar/back bar setup is necessary.

What's the point of grinding a mythic if I can't use it with a monster set unless I fb/bb two 5 pc sets?

5 pc sets made sense back then, not so much now. Changing 5 pc sets to 4 pc sets makes builds optimal - while I would say a n adjustment should be made to all bonuses per pc.

*Edit: with a 4 pc set instead of 5, while running fb/bb builds this allows use of all 1,2,3 (or 2,3,4 bonus) on both bars, while making the last bonus available on one bar at a time. Alternatively, you can front bar a 4 pc, double bar a 4 pc, bb a 3pc (makes sets like Potentates viable fully), while still running a mythic and monster set.

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

As we've removed a few comments that were trolling and bashing, this is a friendly reminder that comments need to adhere to our Community Rules to avoid thread derailment.

• Bashing and Slanderous Comments: We do not permit the bashing of individuals (including ZeniMax employees), groups, or other companies on our forums. We believe that doing so is neither constructive nor in spirit of our game and community.

• Trolling or Baiting: The act of trolling is defined as something that is created for the intent to provoke conflict, shock others, or to elicit a strong negative or emotional reaction. It’s okay and very normal to disagree with others, and even to debate, but provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community. If you do not have something constructive or meaningful to add to a discussion, we strongly recommend you refrain from posting in that thread, and find another discussion to participate in instead. It is also not constructive or helpful to publicly call out others and accuse them of trolling, or call them a troll—please refrain from doing so. If you genuinely believe someone is trolling, please report the post or thread to the ESO Team, and leave it at that.

Thank you for your understanding.

December7854

Honestly there are some personal manifestos in the comment section and if I were a dev I'd say, "I'm not reading all that."

Give the tldr version and maybe we'll be able to make some headway. Use bullet points if necessary, be succinct, don't ramble and repeat yourself. These devs are already busy. Please consider their time.

Stridig

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

DeadlySerious wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

So Sypher's first experience back was getting Rush combod...

Oh please, please tell us that there is a video of this out there somewhere. I'm begging you!

I'd like nothing more than to see ZOS employees go to Cyrodiil and get yanked around into RoA death balls over and over again, and from way out of the official range of the set. Maybe if they see just how RoA just sucks the fun out of Cyrodiil they'll make some changes to the set. It just seems like they don't know because they've never seen it first hand, so they need to. That's all. Not wishing ill on zos employees, just saying I think things might change if they saw how bad RoA is to deal with first hand.

So, I do run Rushing Agony on my NB with my group. I will say this...RA NEEDS to apply CC Immunity to anyone pulled, just like Dark Convergence. You should not be able to have three people pull with RA, then another pull again with DC. It's too much.

On the flip side, RA also needs to apply a 1s immunity to CC after the pull is complete. The reason I say this is because if you are applying a "gap closer" (I.E. Pull, teleport, etc.) there is way too many other pulls in the game, such as necro pull skill, sets, etc. that will pull you 10m off your target AFTER you complete the pull. Coupled with game lag, Immovable pots are not always reliable.

This 1s immunity to CC should apply to ALL listed gap closers.

Specific to the live stream, I think it's great that @ZOS_BrianWheeler came out to do this. Being a sweaty try-hard is not necessary to his job title. However, I will say that I think he may want to invest a little extra time looking back into core mechanics, set balance and skill balance for PVP. Otherwise, start taking community feedback a little more serious and open up dialogue with the community. I know the PVP Dev team is small, but c'mon.

As for things noted from this alone (aside from hundreds of community feedback threads), @ZOS_Kevin can we please, please get someone to take a hard look into the following AND get some official feedback?
1. Sources of damage mitigation - sets, skills, passives, traits review
2. Healing, cross-healing, cross-shielding
3. Pull sets having standard cool-downs and CC immunity across the board
4. Full balance pass on ALL classes
5. Tone-down on Proc Sets
6. Possibly reworking 5 pcs sets to 4 pc sets (moving all slots required down by one to 1,2,3,4 bonus - instead of 2,3,4,5) OR change mythics to it's own slot outside of the standard Helm, Shoulder, Chest, Hands, Waist, Legs, Feet, Amulet, Ring(s), Weapons.

I have a better idea. Ban all pull sets from PvP. Make people slot a skill if they want to pull people.

Erickson9610

Stridig wrote: »

I have a better idea. Ban all pull sets from PvP. Make people slot a skill if they want to pull people.

What's the difference between a skill and a proc set? They're both part of the same aspect of combat — the part where you plan/assemble your build before entering combat.