Feedback on Yesterday's Battleground Brawl Livestream

merevie

RoA is also 'pulling from Narnia' 20-30m, through walls, from back keep flags to the top a d ring stairs, INTO walls/floors/rocks, across formations in open world -basically if someone sees you across the map it's going to pull.

It's not just the cc issue.

I was really hoping to watch Stream live but live in kiwiland and am employed -so had to watch someone's stream hours after -so please do more

And it's great to watch our ole DC nb dev do his thing

Erickson9610

kyle.wilson wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

kyle.wilson wrote: »

Reddit should never be the primary method of communication when there is a forum dedicated for the purpose.

There are many outlets for official ESO communication — the forums is not the only place for it.

The format of the ESO subreddit is useful for AUA prompts, as each comment can have their own discussion chains without disrupting the rest of the conversation. The ESO forums is not good for this, because every message is fixed in chronological order and the discussion gets difficult to follow.

The answer isn't reddit, the answer is to fix the forum.
I shouldn't get search results that if commented on are immediately closed for necroing it.

Both Reddit and the Vanilla Forums have strengths and weaknesses.

One advantage Reddit has is that the order of comments in a thread aren't fixed chronologically — those can be sorted by most popular first, so they're likely to be seen by people skimming the thread. One advantage of the forums is that they are fixed chronologically — you always know who commented after who and you can read the discussion like a book.

Both the ESO Reddit and the ESO Forums should be used. In some cases, it's preferable to host an AUA on the ESO Reddit than it is to host it on the ESO Forums. Sometimes, it's easier to keep track of feedback using the ESO Forums, such as when a pinned, closed discussion is made that links to other relevant threads, as we've seen in the PTS section of the forums.

Deserrick

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

It's not expected that a developer has god-tier skill at the game.

Correct. It is expected that a developer has basic understanding of the fundamentals of the game.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We don't expect perfect encyclopedic recall of every piece a developer has ever worked on.

Correct. We expect passing familiarity with something that has been brought up frequently as something to look at.

Erickson9610

Deserrick wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

It's not expected that a developer has god-tier skill at the game.

Correct. It is expected that a developer has basic understanding of the fundamentals of the game.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We don't expect perfect encyclopedic recall of every piece a developer has ever worked on.

Correct. We expect passing familiarity with something that has been brought up frequently as something to look at.

Is knowledge of Rushing Agony supposed to be common knowledge? It's just one item set out of hundreds.

Yes, I know it comes up a lot in practice. It is a very good set, and I've personally used it enough to know how it works, and played against it enough to know how to counter it. But these rules about what is "fundamental" are completely subjective.

I'd argue that "fundamental" game mechanics are the ones explained in the tutorial — things like crouching, lockpicking, bashing/interrupting, heavy attacking when the enemy is Off Balance, and so on. Fundamentals are mechanics you literally cannot progress through the game without knowing.

blktauna

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

It's not expected that a developer has god-tier skill at the game.

Correct. It is expected that a developer has basic understanding of the fundamentals of the game.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We don't expect perfect encyclopedic recall of every piece a developer has ever worked on.

Correct. We expect passing familiarity with something that has been brought up frequently as something to look at.

Is knowledge of Rushing Agony supposed to be common knowledge? It's just one item set out of hundreds.

Yes, I know it comes up a lot in practice. It is a very good set, and I've personally used it enough to know how it works, and played against it enough to know how to counter it. But these rules about what is "fundamental" are completely subjective.

I'd argue that "fundamental" game mechanics are the ones explained in the tutorial — things like crouching, lockpicking, bashing/interrupting, heavy attacking when the enemy is Off Balance, and so on. Fundamentals are mechanics you literally cannot progress through the game without knowing.

If you are the combat dev, you should understand combat. He seemed unaware heavy attacking restored resources. He looked to be block cancelling his own jabs... This is the person making the decisions on how combat is to be balanced and adjusted, yet gives the impression of cluelessness. If he spent time in Cyrodil or BGs or IC he would totally know Rush of Agony, as everyone in zone has been complaining about it for ages. I got pulled off a back flag then out the front door of Nikel and bombed on the porch as an example. This has been gone over pretty vocally for some time. If the lead was truly unaware of this, that's another serious black mark on their testing and listening to the customer.

I feel kinda bad for him as he seemed unprepared but for pete's sake he's the lead combat designer...

Aldoss

@ZOS_Kevin, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom, @ZOS_BrianWheeler I'm getting into this post late, but I'm caught up now and want to say thank you for:

1) being willing to devote an entire patch and an entire marketing stream to the PvP side of this game
2) for putting the Combat Lead out there for the community to see
3) for being active in this thread and making useful posts that are not just moderation

I'll try to be brief.

By trade I am an instructor of a physical activity. I've trained students to do things that I've never been able to accomplish myself. This is the nature of the teacher/student relationship. While I can't actually perform the skill, I am expected to understand the mechanics at play well enough to be able to train someone, who also cannot yet perform the skill, to be able to accomplish it. If I can't do that, then what use am I?

Anyone who expected @ZOS_BrianWheeler to be amazing at PvP is devoid of this reality. There are very few athletes in any sport who can not only perform at elite levels, but also train themselves to perform at that level. 99% of top athletes have at least one coach, if not more than one. Brian, I hope you ignore the hate directed at you and take pride in the fact that you put yourself out there.

However, the stream was extremely informative for me and not in a good way. It really helped put into perspective all of the reasons as to why my wife and I chose to turn off our subs and stop financially supporting this game back in U35. If there were one sentence of feedback that I can give you as a former paying customer (who is ready and willing to open my wallet again) it's this:

I have no faith that the combat issues that plague this game will be resolved anytime soon.

My lack of faith stems from witnessing the stream and realizing that the lead combat dev doesn't seem to have the requisite knowledge that might appropriately direct his team towards bringing balance back into this game. This isn't based off his gameplay, but of his communication throughout the stream. As someone who regularly streams irl for my business to my customers, I know how stressful the position is and how exposing it is. I am applying a healthy amount of buffer into this and still landing on this conclusion.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom I asked a couple questions in chat and I'm very pleased that they were allowed to stay up and I'm even more pleased that you took the time to answer them. That kind of communication needs to continue. The kind of communication that is happening in this thread also needs to continue and needs to happen more. These types of replies are exactly what we mean when we say we want more communication from ZOS.

I'm honestly baffled that ZOS doesn't send out customer surveys to better aggregate player sentiment. My business doesn't service millions of customers, but I rely so heavily on the feedback that we receive from them and I'd feel so blind without them. These forums are akin to me having random conversations with my customers. I get useful feedback every time I do, but then I have to remember it. It's so powerful when I have true data in front of my face educating me on where I'm lacking in my service to my customers who want to support me.

The neglected Q&A was a huge factor in me deciding to close my wallet. It proved to me that ZOS didn't care about my feelings or my enjoyment of this game and if that were true, then why would I choose to support it? You're saying the words Q&A again. If you really mean it, yes, 100%, I personally would love to see a Q&A surrounding this topic. However what I'd like to see more is a commitment made by ZOS to have a recurring Q&A on at least a monthly basis that focus on various aspects of this game and the various sub-communities that have been cultivated here. PvPers are only one of them.

In conclusion, there is a lot of issues with the state of PvP combat right now and the slowness of ZOS' replies, the even more slowness of their actions, and the rollercoastering of emotions that come 4 times a year when ZOS actually acts on feedback is truly awful to experience as a player.

I don't expect combat balance to be fixed in one patch, but I hope you understand when I say that I cannot open my wallet again until ZOS shows me that they're committed to giving me and my wife the quality experience that we used to get when we were choosing to pay $500+/year on this game.

One Q&A won't win me back, but the journey towards proving that ZOS is committed to improving the combat experience of ESO could start with one.

Please don't turtle up again. Please do more PvP streams, despite how many haters there are. Please keep having real conversations with us that are not just moderation posts or "we passed this along". Every time you turtle up and go silent, it just proves more and more to a person like me that you're not interested in my feedback.

My wallet is ready. I just need to have faith that my support is going somewhere. Please give me that faith.

Lags

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey all, adding onto what Kevin posted earlier in this thread we'd like to address a few pieces of feedback we’ve seen about yesterday’s stream and more broadly touch on some of our communication philosophies.

First and foremost, thank you to everyone who has maintained constructiveness in this discussion thread. We’ve always said that constructive critical feedback is welcome and valuable, and we do mean it. As many of you who have been around awhile know, we also typically do not allow discussions about specific developers or the dev team. We prefer discussions focus on the game, as discussions about individual devs or the team often turn personal in a bad way. That said, we appreciate the efforts by most in this discussion to remain constructive and will leave it open so long as that continues. We do still encourage focusing commentary on the game, though, and not individual devs.

On the topic of our developers, we’ve seen through the years commentary around expectations of developer skill levels, especially with the more competitive PVP and PVE content. It's not expected that a developer has god-tier skill at the game. We have a wide range of skills and interests on the team, just like within our community. We range from progression pushers to casual players and everything in between, and that allows us to account for all player types - not just the god-tier ones.
This goes for knowledge about the game, too. ESO is a huge game with a lot of remember and track. We don't expect perfect encyclopedic recall of every piece a developer has ever worked on. Spacing on a name of an ability while running a stream or taking part in an interview doesn't mean that developer doesn't know the game or skills. It means they’re human.

On the topic of communication, we want to be able to talk with you all more, get out there and play with game with you more, do more livestreams, etc. When a developer puts themselves out there and is met with unrealistic expectations and general personal attacks, it makes them not want to do any of those things again. So please, if you want more communication from us, keep in mind to be respectful and constructive. It’s okay to be frustrated, disappointed, unhappy with something, etc. and we only ask that you communicate that to us without bashing our developers in the process. Anecdotally, we also want players of all skill levels to feel welcome to try out things like PVP Battlegrounds, Cyrodiil, dungeons, and trials, and feel okay with not necessarily being top-tier at it. It's always disappointing to see gatekeeping commentary and behavior – that’s not in the spirit of our community.

On the topic of some of the issues and concerns you all have called out, we are looking into why there are still some queuing issues like the ones you saw us encounter yesterday during the stream. We are aware of them and are digging into whether they’re due to people disconnecting, people declining the invite, or if something else is going on. We are also working on improving our MMR logic so that it provides a better experience and more balanced matches.

This was long, so if you read it all, thank you. 😊 The team here does care, very much, and we want to get out there and interact with you more. Please remember there are hardworking individuals behind the names, and a little kindness can go a long way.

The answer is not to never do this type of thing again. The answer is to start listening to the community about things we want, and fixes/improvements we need, instead of ignoring it for literal years. I dont have it in me to make a giant response anymore, i just dont care. So many of us have tried many times. From the terrible pvp meta, to the terrible healing/heal stacking issues, a terrible lack of rewards in this game, and incentives, old bugs that never get fixed, terrible combat changes, terrible performance that never improves, and the list goes on and on.

Of course people are going to be concerned when all these problems exist, many on display in that stream, and they never improve. i dont think so many people would have reacted this way if the game was in a better place. But there is a disconnect. There has been for a long time. Between zos and pvp players, and what we want. And between zos and veteran/non casual players in general, and what we want. And in the vision you guys have for eso, and what we want or miss from how things used to be. I feel bad for brian but i think the reason you guys have gotten this feedback is because of how bad things have become. I think if the game was in a better place most people wouldnt have even given it a second thought.

fluffybunny

React wrote: »

Additionally, Brian said something along the lines of "I'm playing a tank just to annoy people in PVP", which is a sentiment he repeated multiple times throughout the stream. The forums are full of complaints about the current tank meta and issues surrounding cross healing. It has been the number one pain point for the majority of the playerbase going on years now. To hear the lead combat designer and head of PVP development repeatedly flaunt his enjoyment for "useless tank builds" because they "annoy people" is disgusting, to be frank. It is so far disconnected from the reality of what the players want, but indicates to us that the universally poorly received balance of the past year is in fact exactly what the lead combat designer has in mind for the future of this game.

First of all, this is probably the best reply I’ve seen on the forums as far as PvP goes. Thank you for posting, this should be cross posted on other platforms.

Secondly, I do not understand why the response from the team has been, essentially, “We can tell you and thousands of others that we don’t care about an issue that has been complained about for years, we’ll go so far as actively try to annoy you, and if you say anything about it, you’re being mean and scaring off developers from streaming again.”

Like?? What did you expect from people who actually care about PvP when the lead combat developer makes a jab about undying tank builds? Are we supposed to have no issue with the fact that the combat team purposely allows tank builds so casual players won’t die apparently?

I truly believe this comment was likely partially tongue in cheek; tons of people have said Brian is a nice guy. I don’t doubt he is. I don’t doubt PvP ranks incredibly low on the totem pole for ZOS, or that not even constructive criticism is taken into account, or that these forums are basically a containment ground for complaints until you get threatened with a ban.

Honestly, I would much rather ZOS come out with an official statement that the tank meta is here to say, that PvP is not lucrative or enjoyed by the developers enough to be the focus of improvements, and that PvP will continue to be on the back burner than what happened in this stream. Like, that would be better than what we saw. This wasn’t just a stream, this was clearly some type of sales pitch, at least partially, and yeah, it failed miserably. If I wasn’t already attached to ESO, I probably wouldn’t touch this game simply for one reason: it didn’t look fun, and no one on this stream looked like they were having fun either.

Lastly, I can’t help but notice the constant focus on casual players. “You don’t need to be a sweat to get into PvP!” yeah, most people can figure that out. This stream would have been WAY better if Brian had showcased his causal build for, say, half the time, and then an actual good - not god tier, but good - player played the other half. ZOS could’ve paid one of the few remaining ESO PvP YouTubers or streamers to showcase their skill. More people would’ve been able to see the difference in play styles, from casual to aggressive.

It’s just such a shame, a wasted opportunity. I don’t understand why there was seemingly 0 foresight into the reaction of the player base and potential players. It just seems lazy.

Vulkunne

I'm in agreement with what Aldoss said ^

I think that was very well said. However, let me just say, that at one time, I can remember posting something similar. And nothing changed. I've seen others who have been we'll say more precise in their critical feedback and nothing changed. This has gone on for years. Some have been banned for pushing too hard on here, even.

So nah I really don't have much faith that things are going to 'get right' here. Nope. However, I am thankful the game is still around and most of it is still really enjoyable. But sometimes people need a reason to have faith and when I see things like Templar Jabs and DW Flurry animations basically ruined, with many of us talking about this and asking for this to get fixed and other things that were taken out of the game and never returned.

I am indeed thankful for whatever is left. But I don't have any faith that things are to improve the way they should. I think the Corporate overreach is in effect and as someone once told me in confidence, 'they will not be moved'. And it's shameful that this Crown store is so expensive for getting minor character adjustments done when I can rely on the fact that 100% of what I post or others who don't know me but have similar line of thinking will be ignored 100% of the time. On the forums.

That is what I set my clock to and what I bank on is that no one cares what I think, just want more money for something that is already over-priced. And they don't have to care, and you know what? After this, they still won't care. But I do care enough to be thankful for what I have, yet the insight that I could provide is useless and completely goes to waste because they will not be moved. So, my advice, the only conclusion I can come to, is we need someone who will at least meet us half-way.

Be thankful for what you got, hope you don't win the lottery and lose the thing you like from whichever upcoming patch notes.

SalamanNZ

Damn it. They jumped the shark

Vulkunne

SalamanNZ wrote: »

Damn it. They jumped the shark

Well hopefully you're not talking about what I said. Note, I said nothing personal about anyone whatsoever and my judgement is based on what I've noticed over time. This is nothing new and I'm showing more fairness than some people here have shown to me in the past. I mean, sure I can take my post down and just sit back and see how nothing changes. As much time and support as many of us have put into the game I really don't think it's that painful to listen to us once in a while.

And if you don't like I guess my feelings on this matter, being negative yourself isn't helping. But maybe ESO is only for certain people who aren't going to say something that some of you don't like. Then why take my money and time but not want to hear me out? You don't have to agree. And these days this is just what gets me, they always say, "speak up" if you don't agree "speak up" but every time I do, everyone blames me for the problems instead of actually listening.

As if everything was fine and dandy but darn me for noticing something was wrong. I mean, there are still many good things about the game, sure. But not talking about some of these things is just as bad as having them existing to start with.

Coo_PnT

I don't care which streaming site (Twitch, Youtube), but I would like to see more distribution on ZoS, both PvP and PvE.
Maybe we could describe it as a housing broadcast and invite a few housing professionals.

I would also like to see more active communication with the community. We all love ESO and want to actively talk about it.

OgnevkaFenella

I guess I'll chime in.

Others above have talked plenty about the issues surrounding pvp balance, state of communication and combat as a whole, so I shall focus on the technical aspect.

• The stream started off with no sound. This is a staple for ZOS streams, has been happening as long as I remember, even back when they had a studio. Any of us knows that forgetting to unmute is something that can happen in literally any online meeting, no matter how professional. But it's still a thing that should be avoided!
• Audio all throughout the stream was very very low, despite the constant complaints from chat and acknowledgment from ZOS team. This should have been tested beforehand.
• There was no way to identify players and their characters, we only knew we are watching Brian because his build was posted beforehand. Some people came away thinking they were watching Sae's gameplay (dubious...). Turning on @ names and nameplates, putting markers on members of the team would be very helpful.
• Having multiple teams playing on multiple streams sounds good but needs way better organization. Many people - including myself - only saw the main Bethesda channel stream and thought that next teams will follow, only to find out that everything ended that same night. The announcement post was not clear on how streams would be handled. In my opinion, it would be better if it was just a long Bethesda stream with teams rotating throughout, along with members parallel streaming it on their own channels.
• It appears that Brian was managing livestream tech, gameplay and interaction all by himself. He usually appears in streams as a guest, and afaik he doesn't stream on his own time, so this must've been extremely overwhelming. It is very unfair from ZOS management to saddle a single team member with so many tasks at once in front of a live and extremely volatile audience. Next items in the list will be direct consequences of this decision.
• There was only one POV, and even if you had MalcolMY at the wheel, he still could not make an oakensoul meatshield interesting to watch. Technology for switching POVs exists and absolutely should have been implemented. I understand that Sae's internet was unstable, but surely it could be done between Brian, Sypher and Madeline. Instead, we watched a riveting 2 hours of a character running and blocking, which is the intended gameplay for this build, but not something that would excite a potential player or reassure an existing one.
• There was no interaction with twitch chat. Gina and Jessica were fighting for their lives in there but mainly to uphold moderation and not answer questions. Actual gameplay questions were being answered by us veteran players. Again, totally understandable that Brian was not able to add chat interaction to his already insane list of tasks for the stream, and there should have been another member in the call (could be someone who we haven't heard before) who could be handling that.

Overall, it appears that the event was poorly organized. It seems that little effort was put on the technical side, and not enough testing was done to alleviate the ever-present audio issues. There should have been way more people on deck to manage the POVs, interact with chat, fill the awkward silence when team members are focused on gameplay. Also, ZOS were ill-prepared for the inevitable backlash - ZOS knows what the chat is like usually for pvp focused streams, Brian knows his own playstyle, it should have been very clear to everyone that 2 hours of oakensoul tanking would not be met with deafening applause.

As a comms suggestion, try doing the discord channel thing again before/during/after streams. It went well last time, except this time get more mods onboard (you can even invite trusted members of the community, especially because they know who the bad eggs are and won't allow them to lurk in the server for hours to suddenly emerge with heinous things). I found it to be a great way for ESO players to connect - the official server is like a root that unites the many many smaller servers and it was nice to meet people from other ESO bubbles, potentially even play with them.

Oh, and for future stream ideas - Tanxiety was great, that format rocked. Try doing the same exact thing with Hyperioxes for tank, SeaUnicorn for healer, luchtt for dungeon mechanics, there is a wide array of great DD players who are both normal people who can be trusted to be on a stream and are very skilled and can offer advice on their role. Just throwing some names in the hat. This can be done for pvp as well.

Skoomah

It’s critically important that people can load into game and actually play. You wait at least 5 minutes in queue for a match and then another 5 minutes for it to start once you’re teleported into the zone, for maybe 5 minutes of gameplay.

So if a match is playable you wait around for 10 minutes for 5 minutes of fighting. That’s a net negative when you can actually play.

If the match doesn’t start, you’ve lost 10 minutes of your life doing nothing. And if the match you’ve teleported into has an opponents side that is empty of any players, you’ve lost 10 minutes of your time.

This net loss of time is even more pronounced when you wait even longer for the queue to pop.

Solution:
1. Let the matches start regardless if both sides are fully 4v4 or 8v8
2. Fix the empty opponents side, this is crazy how it’s not fixed yet

Muizer

Aldoss wrote: »

My lack of faith stems from witnessing the stream and realizing that the lead combat dev doesn't seem to have the requisite knowledge that might appropriately direct his team towards bringing balance back into this game.

All the more so because I don't think he actually 'has' a team. He just gets to borrow some devs who spend 99% of their time working on other things.

manukartofanu

A recurring thought in many responses on this topic seems to suggest that a Lead Combat Designer doesn't need any skills in PvP, and the negative feedback from many players is tied to their supposedly false expectations in this regard.

I think it's important to clarify that a significant portion of the audience providing negative feedback has no expectations about developers being skilled at playing the games they create. Since we can't discuss specific individuals here, I'll just use an analogy.

Imagine you have a working service—say, a pizza delivery service. The person in charge of managing it doesn’t use the delivery service or even eat pizza. Is that a problem? Not at all, as long as the service works well and delivers tasty pizza. Nobody questions who’s managing the service as long as it runs smoothly.

But what happens if the service starts changing the menu, removing many beloved types of pizza, and instead makes half the menu extremely spicy? Moreover, due to some production issues, even the remaining pizzas often end up containing spicy peppers. First, some people will simply stop ordering pizza from this place and move elsewhere. Second, those who still enjoy the remaining menu options will continue ordering but will frequently complain about their pizza sometimes arriving spicy. The more often this happens, the louder the complaints will become.

Now imagine what happens if, after years of complaints and the general assumption that the company doesn’t care about feedback, the person managing the service publicly states that they don’t like pizza and made half the menu spicy just to annoy pizza lovers.

Come on—people don’t care how good someone is at playing games unless they claim to be an esports professional (which wasn’t the case here). But people do expect one of the following:
- Either you have a deep understanding of the field you’re managing, in which case you can ignore others because you genuinely know better;
- Or you listen to people who are experts in the field you’re managing to make informed decisions;
- Or, ignoring the first two, you collect feedback from the end users—but in that case, you need to conduct a lot of surveys since the opinions of a few uninformed individuals are rarely relevant.

But people know that the third option is missing in this case. So, what should they expect then?

Synapsis123

I'm willing to assume Brian wasn't actively answering questions during combat because he was focusing on his own performance. Just because he's not a pro pvper doesn't really mean anything. I think the combat in this game is pretty good. In fact, it is probably the best balanced pvp mmo out there despite what other people think. So if he is as the helm it doesn't really matter if he can perform well in pvp because apparently he can design pvp well and thats what really matters if you're a developer.

TLDR You can completely understand how a F1 car works and be able to build one from scratch, but that doesn't mean you can drive it well.

Varana

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey all, it's late but I wanted to hop in and say thank you for the many constructive and thoughtful responses since I last posted, especially those from @Destai @ESO_Nightingale @ForumSavant and @Turtle_Bot. There are fair concerns, criticisms, and suggestions here. While I can't respond to all of them, please know I've read every post and we are discussing best steps forward. I know we've said this before, but we can always do better with our communication. In that line of thought, beyond forum posts what method do you all most prefer for answers to questions? What is the most visible? A Q&A post/article? A Reddit AMA? Something else?

Regardless of format, what I usually find frustrating is the vagueness and PR language of answers on Q&As and similar things.

Questions are cherrypicked, with no indication of why these questions were chosen, leaving the reader to assume they got picked because they were easy to answer. If there are questions that come up again and again - like quite a lot when talking about PvP - and you can't answer them, say so, and ideally why.

Answers are often saddled with bland PR speech that is designed to convey as little actual information as possible while putting the most positive spin on it. Don't avoid getting technical or into details.

Less filter. More nuts and bolts and nerd talk.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey all, it's late but I wanted to hop in and say thank you for the many constructive and thoughtful responses since I last posted, especially those from @Destai @ESO_Nightingale @ForumSavant and @Turtle_Bot. There are fair concerns, criticisms, and suggestions here. While I can't respond to all of them, please know I've read every post and we are discussing best steps forward. I know we've said this before, but we can always do better with our communication. In that line of thought, beyond forum posts what method do you all most prefer for answers to questions? What is the most visible? A Q&A post/article? A Reddit AMA? Something else?

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom

For me the issue has always been less about 'one off' Q&A's or AMA's because whilst they can be nice generally they lack the option for 'feedback and response' following the answer. As a playerbase on the whole (from what i've seen on the forums) whenever ZOS Devs or Community Managers visit and engage with the playerbase the response is always initially good. I think most players were 'happy' that a PVP livestream was planned. The issue comes when the response or event is posted/finished and then there's silence on the feedback and questions following it.

Lets take the Population test as an example here.
Originally posted December 2023 players were excited to see if population could finally increase, in any event perhaps we would finally move towards understanding more of the issues behind the lag.
The tests started really rough, multiple crashes and issues. Whilst things did improve over the course of the test and were eventually fun the event ended and there was a promise of follow up to review the data and feedback. Then instead of hearing the results of the test 9 days later we just receive "We are reviewing the data gained from this test, along with all the player feedback provided during this period." Since then nothing for over 11 months.
Are you still reviewing? Was there any outcome? For players the feeling is that performance has been heavily deteriorating for the past 2 years since the 'server refresh' which actually improved things for 6 months.

I would suggest again, do a monthly/quarterly forum Q&A where the top 3 pvp & pvp combat issues/questions are answered and then when players respond to those answers a followed up post a week later. This will show that there is a back and forth dialog and that viewpoints have been heard and considered.
If players know that communication is more frequent they will be far less pushy to try and make themselves heard by any means possible on the small amount of interaction occasions the pvp community gets.


My suggestions would be the following topics for the first 3 questions:

1. A lot of players have communicated concerns with highly optimised group pvp being too dominant in Cyrodiil, with reasons such as the prevalence of uncapped (12 capped) group sets offering huge player power spikes along with uncapped HoT healing(multiple stacking HoTs). Is ZOS considering any changes in either of these areas?

2. Hybridisation has greatly narrowed build diversity within ESO and has caused Stamina and Magicka to be fairly irrelevant which is leading to very high health pools. Is the team happy with Hybridisation and what are the future plans for combat?

3. The design of gearsets often has many rules behind it yet we still see sets such as Rush of Agony which break the rules around crowd control and proc sets such as Tarnished Nightmare which was again introduced without any counterplay considered (this has since been adjusted but it is a recurring pattern). Are any changes to Rush of Agony being considered when Battle spirit is active and what is the teams thoughts on the current balance between player skill and proc sets when it comes to ESO combat?

(if you choose to answer more then)

4. Player population imbalance and one-sided faction control has long been a problem within Cyrodiil. Are there any plans to try and find solutions for this? For example in the past there have been suggestions to adjust the campaign points gain during times of imbalance (not via Low population/Low Score bonus but instead by decreasing the points gain overall whilst the imbalance is prevalent). Along with improving rewards and increasing the amount of 'reward tiers' to encourage more participation within Cyrodiil.

blktauna

Synapsis123 wrote: »

TLDR You can completely understand how a F1 car works and be able to build one from scratch, but that doesn't mean you can drive it well.

No but you can usually drive a car and that's rather what the concern is here.

StarOfElyon

I don't remember if I shared my thoughts in this thread already so:

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Over the years YouTube and Twitch content creators have expressed their complaints about combat in ESO, especially when proc sets began dominating, and making the game less about skill and more about set combinations.

Those complaints were never addressed and led to ESO losing what I see as a great treasure in these content creators. I feel like they were treated as replaceable and the value that they brought to the game was under valued.

Now ESO is having an event with streamers and expecting that them playing the game that ignored their complaints is going to make for some positive exposure. I don't believe it will have that effect. I believe it will be the opposite. Maybe I'm alone in that opinion.

I can say that I was definitely taken aback while watching the stream. I appreciate Wheeler putting himself out there to play the game but I don't understand why he didn't seem to have a sense of how to PvP at all. He looked completely lost. I mean first battle ground match ever lost.

Synapsis123

blktauna wrote: »

Synapsis123 wrote: »

TLDR You can completely understand how a F1 car works and be able to build one from scratch, but that doesn't mean you can drive it well.

No but you can usually drive a car and that's rather what the concern is here.

He was driving a car. He just wasn't driving it fast enough for you.

StarOfElyon

Poss wrote: »

Cooperharley wrote: »

He didn’t pick a time to return. He was likely paid a big sum of money due to his millions of subscribers to bring more attention to the game, but all it did was display his boredom even more so, so it likely hurt them more than anything.

Sypher didn’t stream nor did he advertise this collaboration to his subscribers. He was literally just there as a special guest. I’m still disappointed we had to watch Brian’s tank PoV for 2 hours

He wasn't even a tank. Tanks should crowd control or support the team somehow. He was just there. He might as well have been a spectator. XD

StarOfElyon

JustLovely wrote: »

The take home message I got from the PvP live stream is that even those at ZOS who are in charge of PvP do not spend sufficient time playing the game mode to understand how their various sets are impacting PvP or to be sufficiently aware of whats going on with ball groups etc. It was made clear that even the dev in charge of PvP doesn't spend much time at all actually playing PvP.

In short, the root of the problem with ESO PvP is EXACTLY what the PvP vets have been claiming for years. ZOS does not have employees spending enough time playing PvP to even be aware of let alone know how to fix many of the issues concerning sets like RoA and ball groups etc.

The stream made it abundantly clear that PvP in ESO is an afterthought for ZOS and has been for a long time.

Yes, the game in theory is not equal to the game in practice. The voices of those who know the game in practice have gone ignored for too many years and it broke my heart to watch those content creators walk away from the game as a result. The devs need to have time to play in a real environment to know the game in practice as part of quality assurance, especially if they don't listen to players

XSTRONG

Imagine a dev for Gran Turismo that works on to make the racing track the best for players and also work on how the player can adjust their car to be good.

He knows all those things but still crashes his car in every corner when playing the game, is he still a bad dev? Or should he adjust the game to his lvl of play? Lol

Aldoss

Synapsis123 wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

Synapsis123 wrote: »

TLDR You can completely understand how a F1 car works and be able to build one from scratch, but that doesn't mean you can drive it well.

No but you can usually drive a car and that's rather what the concern is here.

He was driving a car. He just wasn't driving it fast enough for you.

I think the reason why this back and forth is occurring is because of a faulty analogy.

Brian's role at ZOS is not to drive cars (play in PvP) nor is it to design cars (craft a PvP build). His role at ZOS is to manage the roadways and the flow of traffic to ensure that all the inhabitants of his city are able to get to and fro with ease and efficiency (Combat Mechanics and Balance Directing). I don't expect Brian to know how to play a Templar effectively, but I do expect him to know how the various combat systems that he has direct oversight of interact with the Templar class.

I also expect someone in charge of combat direction to know how much stronger healing is versus damage. I expect them to understand the resource systems. I expect them to understand how skills might affect the gameplay experience of their players. If someone is in charge of the roadways for my city, I expect them to understand how the roads are being used by the various vehicles that drive on them, whether or not they're for commercial or personal use, how frequently roads are traveled, at what time of day, and know how to maintain all those systems to ensure that the roadways function as best as possible for all the inhabitants.

I also don't think it's a stretch for players (especially players in the PvP community) to expect their combat lead at ZOS to not proclaim during a marketing stream that they are purposefully antagonizing them. How would you feel if the road you need to drive on in order to get to work everyday was suddenly and purposefully changed to have all red lights, at every light, only for your flow of traffic, simply because the road manager didn't like you?

None of this has to do with the performance we saw, nor does it relate to the templar build we witnessed. It all has to do with the communication that was presented during the public stream marketing the new BGs to new players surrounding the apparent lack of knowledge of the combat mechanics that make this game function for all its players.

@ZOS_MattFiror should really look into releasing more of the plentiful funds that come in from the Crown Store and use them to invest in a bigger team of people who can devote more time and brain power into analyzing and managing the combat systems of ESO. Update patches have not only become less big than they used to be, but they're also getting delivered with more and more issues. U44 is yet another full content patch that will be remembered for years to come as one of worst delivered patches in ESO's history and that failure was on full display to all of SypherPK's community, prominently.

The queuing system of BGs is a massive slap in face to the playerbase with how much time is getting wasted on a daily basis with empty lobbies.

This level of change needs to come from the top. I hope Matt makes the right decision and invests more into the management of the combat mechanics. Game balance feels awful right now and we've been talking about it for years with no real changes.

Destai

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey all, it's late but I wanted to hop in and say thank you for the many constructive and thoughtful responses since I last posted, especially those from @Destai @ESO_Nightingale @ForumSavant and @Turtle_Bot. There are fair concerns, criticisms, and suggestions here. While I can't respond to all of them, please know I've read every post and we are discussing best steps forward. I know we've said this before, but we can always do better with our communication. In that line of thought, beyond forum posts what method do you all most prefer for answers to questions? What is the most visible? A Q&A post/article? A Reddit AMA? Something else?

Thank you @ZOS_JessicaFolsom, it means a lot to feel heard. I'll provide some feedback, most of which is focused on how the forums feel and what could be improved with them, while answering some of your points. I'm sure I'll edit this a few times.

I'd encourage you to check my post history on this thread, as many of comments are in the spirit of improving communication and driving that issue. A lot of my posts and comments are influenced by my work, where I'm a delivery & technical lead in the SAP space. A lot of my job is talking to change management, executives, and integration developers. So the suggestions are coming from experience, albeit in a different industry.

General Communication Concerns/Points
Understanding Roles & Responsibilities.

I think it'd be helpful if we knew who does what; like who can respond to a given topic. I'm going to use this thread as an example, which sorely needs similar attention. People are asking @ZOS_Kevin for things like regular status updates and additional clarifications. If it's a matter of "they're not authorized to say more", getting that context would be appreciated that way we're not getting frustrated at someone for something they don't own.

Communicating Time Constraints.

If a CM's been on a thread, most people are going to assume they're available to answer it. If there's competing priorities, it's crunch time, they're on trips, whatever - it'd be nice to know the point of contact is unavailable. And more candidly, if a CM is strapped for time, I'd really appreciate if their comments were more focused on answering - or even just acknowledging - suggestions and concerns. Rather than just going straight to the defensive when people get understandably frustrated. When there's limited information, people are going to assume the worst. Being defensive doesn't help, because it doesn't really get to the heart of the matter.

Additional examples:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8173087#Comment_8173087

Being Conscious of Language & Tone.

Tone is important. Many times it feels like we're given boilerplate responses that feel divorced from the tone and concern in a thread. Getting short responses feels like someone's snippy. There's other times, where it feels like the responses are purposefully obtuse. Like last year, there was the situation around New Life Festival. It was shortened from its usual length, and the language we got - "it'll be inline with other events" - felt very careful and vague. We also saw this with U35 when we got "something to address the sentiment". You wind up irking people off way, way more when such careful language is used. It feels artificial, which leads people to think they're being hoodwinked. I think more specificity and candid communication is going to be helpful. Speak to us like adults, you know?

Forum Management
Adopting a Forums-First Approach.

Overall, I believe the forums should be a focal point for your comms. Reason being, this is the place where players can truly get into detail that social media will not allow. Don't discount your forums. If anything, lean into them more. And by that, I mean taking a look at the staffing and how those resources are used. The focus so far has been on news, patch notes, and moderation. The latter of which has really pushed some people away from coming here. Shifting the staff to be more focused on truly being warm and engaging will seriously improve things. Be refocused on helping and organizing feedback with things like questions logs and recaps is the ask here.

Also there's been a few major bugs/issues (the stuck in combat bug, chiefly) that get acknowledged interviews or Reddit and other social media. Any related threads here haven't received attention, despite their age and frequent tagging of devs. I've brought this up before and there seemed to be resistance to the idea of closing the loop here - being told here that the forums aren't a news round up. Responses like this make it seem like someone has an attitude.

Confirming your understanding of our feedback.

Provide a recap list of questions/concerns when saying you're "taking this back to the teams". Or just aligning on an issue's criticality. I've asked for these a few times, and those requests have typically gone unanswered; again just reference my post history as suggested earlier. There's also been times where suggestions/feedback get wildly misunderstood. When that happens, it's not that far fetched to think that the general issue itself is being misunderstood.

Additional examples:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8184291#Comment_8184291
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8203972#Comment_8203972
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8101530#Comment_8101530
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8046958#Comment_8046958
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7775662#Comment_7775662

Improving Responsiveness.

Just using the U35 threads and performance thread earlier as examples, I've seen quite a few times where people are tagging people constantly for an update. If these are situations where you guys were in panic mode, then those are situations where turtling up really does the most damage. And if there's issues that are ongoing, committing to regular updates is going to calm the situation down. As of right now, we don't know what communication cadence works for you guys on major issues, so we as a community keep panic pinging you and getting pissed off even more. There's a vicious cycle there.

Additional examples:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8206904#Comment_8206904
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8205974#Comment_8205974
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8200402#Comment_8200402
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8056252#Comment_8056252

Improving Follow ups.

All too often "we're monitoring feedback" is given to us and then we never hear from it again. The issue here is - what are you doing with that feedback? If it's meant as a "we're not changing our minds right now, but may in the future", those expectations could be better set.

PTS Management
Developer Engagement on PTS.

It goes without saying that we need true developer engagement the PTS forums. Not every topic needs Brian on it, but getting that back and forth will prevent blowback reactions like we saw in U35. This one of those areas where people pour a lot of effort into and really want that emotional satisfaction of a response. Or if there's misunderstandings, getting them cleared up.

Managing controversy.

One of the key frustrations is changes going against our feedback. And I think this is one of those areas where the tone ZOS takes really, really matters. There's been tweets and streams in the past that have really, really begrudged people towards ZOS and certain developers. That spills over to other devs and their streams. Candidly and respectfully explaining controversial changes is something you guys can vastly improve on.

Big example: the permaglow changes to Nightblade - 100s of comments on it and you guys stayed the course. To me, this is one of those times where it feels like someone's just digging their heels in. I can see sticking to your guns on mechanical things like combat balance or whatever where we may not see the big picture. But cosmetic changes like that - be willing to change or at least truly explain why you can't or won't. More than just "this is the change and we'll be monitoring your feedback". That feels dismissive.

Provide context.

I think it was last year, we had a PVP performance test. Myself and many other asked for context around why the test was happening, what was the outcome, etc. and that context wasn't provided. In previous AMAs, I've asked ZOS, I believe it was Rich, what happens here. The explanation was that basically PTS isn't solely for us and the testing is also just for visible internal testing. If something's just being tested for sanity checks, and you're not open to changing course, then that context should be visibly communicated. We need to know what areas of the game are most open to our feedback.

Interactive Sessions

Ultimately, I propose a Q&A for the following events/reasons

1. The beginning of the year. Getting a look ahead and candid feedback sets the tone for the year. This one could be really light and more fun, not really needing super technical folks involved. Diving into the roadmap, recounting existing issues, and what's slated to be fixed would be a good place to start.
2. Preceding a big combat change. I think there's incredibly value in having a Q&A mid-PTS cycle, especially if there's big combat changes. You want to get candid feedback ASAP so that way you can change course if needed. Just having forum posts read doesn't really tell us what you're thinking as a team.
3. Mid-year after big chapter release. Again, more of a temperature check than anything.
4. End of Year. Getting that EOY reflection is helpful. It should be an honest acknowledgement of the good and the bad.
5. Pop-ups. There's been big some issues over the years that wound up being pretty big controversies. Moments like U35, this big performance issue we have now, the issue earlier this where PTS got connected to live - you get the idea. Those moments, more than anything would be best served by someone talking with us and telling us what happened.
6. Performance. In general, performance has been a longstanding pain point for many of us. To be frank, it's always been an issue. And I think it behooves all of us to understand what's being done to improve it and I think a Q&A will help. I also think pegging changes in patch notes to performance-related threads and concerns will also help. There's concern that the Server Architecture got closed off and there wasn't any real deep dives into why beyond one post. That post generated many questions that are still outstanding today.
7. Roadmaps. To be confident in ZOS and the game, we need roadmaps of big efforts like hybridization and other big combat initiatives. By roadmaps, I mean detailed discussions and documents on what's involved in the efforts. Would suggest looking at how other studios communicate this information.
8. More official streams. I get this stream may not have been the most comfortable, but I think we need more of these. Most of the authoritative sources on the game are streamers. I think it would build credibility for you guys to stream and talk combat again. Back when Rich streamed, getting those questions answered was really helpful.

In closing, whatever changes you guys make to communication, please stick with them. Consistency is key. We've heard similar resolutions before. Moments like this really are an opportunity for you guys to improve your image, don't let it pass you by.

StarOfElyon

I wish I had saved specific videos from content creators like Isth3reno1else, Grimsforge Gaming, Kristofer ESO, and more over the years who have taken the time to explain the problems with combat. Their feedback was not heard. If I can find those videos, I will post them.

XSTRONG

StarOfElyon wrote: »

I wish I had saved specific videos from content creators like Isth3reno1else, Grimsforge Gaming, Kristofer ESO, and more over the years who have taken the time to explain the problems with combat. Their feedback was not heard. If I can find those videos, I will post them.

What about PvE content creators? I started playing eso because Alcast content

Pelanora

Theres so much artistic talent going into ESO, which of course is so very personal and profound to the person creating and delivering it- is that why zos can't see that companies delivering product to customers absolutely need to stay close to what the customers want, else they will lose those customers? There is always new competition, there is always shifting tastes- delivering TO and FOR the customer is the only thing that will keep a company alive?

I just cannot understand the reluctance to collect every last drop of feedback and data possible and absolutely deliver a product that will sell to the customer base.

This thread is full of people begging for a company to not 'turtle up' and that is staggering to me.

Zos you are not selling paintings in an art gallery, you are not releasing your studio album, you are not a dancer on tour. Your artistry matters BUT you're also needing to balance that with reaching customers.

You are also not the dominant game or absolutely nailing it in terms of sales. You cannot argue that you have found your way to a product you can feel secure about for the time being. Player counts are visibly dropping on at least one major platform- and that should be enough to make you think about what you could be doing differently. No company for any of their sales channels should watch that channel shrink and not worry about how maybe theyve got to figure out what their customers want.

DO EVERYTHING to collect data from your customers and figure a path through their preferences. Youve had suggestions for a bunch of channels, use them.