Feedback on Yesterday's Battleground Brawl Livestream

ZOS_Kevin

Hi all, just wanted to follow up here. Normally, we do not leave threads open that specifically call out an individual dev team member. We will be editing the title for that reason. However, it seems like there is some constructive conversation here in this thread. So we want to make sure to keep constructive conversations around for us to reflect on later. All we ask is that those conversations try to address criticisms more generally, rather than at an individual team member. As along as we stay constructive, we can keep the thread open.

We do want to note the that Brian is not a rep for "sweaty PvP". He said that on the stream as well. He takes a more causal route now when he plays PvP himself. Also, part of the stream was meant to showcase that you don't have to be a sweat to jump into PvP. Brian's take on being more causal in PvP was meant to speak to that.

Also wanted to note that Brian was responsible for running the livestream and keeping things on track. If anyone has livestreamed before, you know there are a lot of moving parts to make sure things stay on track, so sometimes questions get missed. We're all human, so these things happen.

Just as a reminder, all we ask for this thread is to keep conversations and/or criticism more generally, rather than at a specific team member. We're taking feedback to the team for how we can better address Battlegrounds, livestreams showcasing content, and the PvP community in general. As along as we stay constructive, we can keep the thread open. Thanks for the feedback so far.

JustLovely

The take home message I got from the PvP live stream is that even those at ZOS who are in charge of PvP do not spend sufficient time playing the game mode to understand how their various sets are impacting PvP or to be sufficiently aware of whats going on with ball groups etc. It was made clear that even the dev in charge of PvP doesn't spend much time at all actually playing PvP.

In short, the root of the problem with ESO PvP is EXACTLY what the PvP vets have been claiming for years. ZOS does not have employees spending enough time playing PvP to even be aware of let alone know how to fix many of the issues concerning sets like RoA and ball groups etc.

The stream made it abundantly clear that PvP in ESO is an afterthought for ZOS and has been for a long time.

JustLovely

Jaimeh wrote: »

DemonicGoat wrote: »

Yea, That stream was insightful as to why things are they way they are around combat,pvp,bgs,etc. (IMO)

Syphers question to Brian at 01:33:40

The VOD is here:

10th anniversary..

Poss wrote: »

Sypher’s question “what is that Arcanist hard cc called” was met with complete silence from the head PvP guy because he just didn’t know. And then Brian’s claim he wasn’t a tank despite running Maras, Hist, 40k health and literally walking around the entire arena perma blocking.

This whole stream told me all I needed to know about the Dev’s opinion of PvP. I walked away feeling an intense sensation of emptiness. They really do not have a clue what the PvP playerbase want even Sypher looked bored out of his mind. This was exactly why he left the game in the first place

This is worrisome, they don't know or play their own game enough, this is the lead combat designer right there.

Exactly.

merevie

Recommend watching Okuy's Twitch stream with Gilliam (skip ahead a bit as they had issues with the queue) -quite a different showcase of play in that. And RoA from the other perspective

React

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, just wanted to follow up here. Normally, we do not leave threads open that specifically call out an individual dev team member. We will be editing the title for that reason. However, it seems like there is some constructive conversation here in this thread. So we want to make sure to keep constructive conversations around for us to reflect on later. All we ask is that those conversations try to address criticisms more generally, rather than at an individual team member. As along as we stay constructive, we can keep the thread open.

We do want to note the that Brian is not a rep for "sweaty PvP". He said that on the stream as well. He takes a more causal route now when he plays PvP himself. Also, part of the stream was meant to showcase that you don't have to be a sweat to jump into PvP. Brian's take on being more causal in PvP was meant to speak to that.

Also wanted to note that Brian was responsible for running the livestream and keeping things on track. If anyone has livestreamed before, you know there are a lot of moving parts to make sure things stay on track, so sometimes questions get missed. We're all human, so these things happen.

Just as a reminder, all we ask for this thread is to keep conversations and/or criticism more generally, rather than at a specific team member. We're taking feedback to the team for how we can better address Battlegrounds, livestreams showcasing content, and the PvP community in general. As along as we stay constructive, we can keep the thread open. Thanks for the feedback so far.

Respectfully, Brian is the lead combat designer, and the person in charge of PVP development. He doesn't need to be an excellent, or even a good PVP player - but the fact that he did not understand basic combat mechanics and was unable to answer combat related questions from Sypher is very concerning.

For example, sypher asked brian what was pulling and stunning them - and brian simply could not answer. Shouldn't the lead combat designer know which set does that, especially when that set is talked about DAILY as a pain point here on the forums? There are dozens of posts complaining about rush of agony, and brian not even recognizing it (while one of his teammates is also wearing it, by the way) is infuriating.

As far as combat goes, I won't nitpick his performance. Anyone with any experience whatsoever in PVP could watch his gameplay and make the assumption that he has never once touched PVP before, and I'd tend to agree with them.

Additionally, Brian said something along the lines of "I'm playing a tank just to annoy people in PVP", which is a sentiment he repeated multiple times throughout the stream. The forums are full of complaints about the current tank meta and issues surrounding cross healing. It has been the number one pain point for the majority of the playerbase going on years now. To hear the lead combat designer and head of PVP development repeatedly flaunt his enjoyment for "useless tank builds" because they "annoy people" is disgusting, to be frank. It is so far disconnected from the reality of what the players want, but indicates to us that the universally poorly received balance of the past year is in fact exactly what the lead combat designer has in mind for the future of this game.

Finally, the state of these battlegrounds is absolutely unacceptable. The fact that something like 40-50% of the games during yesterday's stream did not start due to a bug is just unbelievable. We went nearly 6 years without receiving any meaningful PVP content whatsoever. This was the first patch in 6 years where we expected to be delivered a functioning, enjoyable piece of PVP content - and the battlegrounds we received are the furthest thing from that. They are plagued with gamebreaking bugs in regards to starting, massive oversights in death/respawn mechanics as well as inactivity kicking, and possess a completely meaningless "competitive" leaderboard where you dominate simply by spamming heals and playing more than other people, not by performing well offensively or in regards to objectives. There was an enormous amount of feedback surrounding these problems on the PTS - which was patently ignored, as is seemingly the norm for our feedback as players.

Personofsecrets

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

We do want to note the that Brian is not a rep for "sweaty PvP". He said that on the stream as well. He takes a more causal route now when he plays PvP himself. Also, part of the stream was meant to showcase that you don't have to be a sweat to jump into PvP. Brian's take on being more causal in PvP was meant to speak to that.

I have a feedback regarding feedback that comes from sweats. First and foremost, we know that some very passionate players have the full capability to improve the game because some players have been hired to work on the game in an official capacity.

Any individual sweat, such as myself, may be making feedback that is of particular concern to the things that they personally like or dislike. So it can seem that sweaty concerns are not necessary casual player concerns.

What I'd like to point out is that if sweaty concerns are ameliorated, then there can be a positive effect that flows outward to all players. This aspect of design is quite obvious to me from playing Tales of Tribute the amount that I have. The game has certain aspects that are the way they are because it's a casual game. Those aspects, such as some cards that are poorly balanced, could be improved for all players via taking into account sweaty feedback.

To circle back to PVP, I am just an okay player. I've rarely found myself to be that powerful in PVP. I have a hard time with resources. I have a terrible time with self-heals. That all said, I've found my niche in battlegrounds and stayed on the leaderboard the last 3 weeks (without healing others) by abusing Rush of Agony bombing. Maybe there is some skill there, but it's not a ton. Setting up the same combo over and over often get's me the top damage dealt and highest kill number in the games that I play. I'm in the MMR bracket where this play style isn't always that effective without team synergies, but I still don't see how the sets I use enrich the game.That said, I really really don't know how the game is enriched by players balling with 40k health and occasionally aligning their ultimate abilities in a way that finishes off the squishy player which the opposing team was unfortunate to receive. But I'm more of a TOT person. I'm sure that serious PVP players have already written novels about Rush of Agony and other commonly abused tactics in battlefield.

chessalavakia_ESO

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Cooperharley wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Sypher sure picked a strange time to return. This update is a huge stinker.

He didn’t pick a time to return. He was likely paid a big sum of money due to his millions of subscribers to bring more attention to the game, but all it did was display his boredom even more so, so it likely hurt them more than anything.

I promise you Sypher is going straight back to Fortnite at 100mph and deleting ESO off his PC 🤣 I love this game but man, if that stream didn’t show off the pain points I don’t know what will!

If this is the case then we have to give zos credit for trying and investing time and potentially money to bring new players to the game. We desperately need this.

My gripe is that they lean on a dude who hasn't played the game in years. This is a gigantic slap in the face to all of the current content creators and players who oro.ote the game THEY ARW CURRENTLY PLAYING.

Really dint have big ESO streamers any more. Definitely not near the viewers Sypher gets.

True, and visibility is good. My point is that there is a community of existing players that they completely ignore. These players can provide way better insight and feedback on proposed changes to combat, sets, skills, etc. Before... this is key... before zos goes in and inevitably makes the game worse.

Instead we are left to complain here after the fact while zos steamrolls ahead with other things that will continue to degrade the gaming experience.

It is so backwards and so frustrating to have to keep absorbing bad combat changes already. So, when they go out and stream with some dude who gave up the game years ago, it's insulting.

I think you do run into the issue that what players want doesn't necessarily align and that the developer approach may be attempting to make multiple sides that disagree happy when that may not always be possible.

For example,

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668970/bg-2-team-format-means-the-deathmatch-vs-objective-debate-is-mostly-over

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/669195/players-arent-playing-the-objectives-on-new-battlegrounds

You also hit that while some of the people are currently very vocal about not being happy with the state of Battlegrounds, some of them are actually happier with the current iteration than the past one. Some of us that are somewhat less vocal preferred the old battlegrounds to the current.

Joy_Division

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, just wanted to follow up here. Normally, we do not leave threads open that specifically call out an individual dev team member. We will be editing the title for that reason. However, it seems like there is some constructive conversation here in this thread. So we want to make sure to keep constructive conversations around for us to reflect on later. All we ask is that those conversations try to address criticisms more generally, rather than at an individual team member. As along as we stay constructive, we can keep the thread open.

We do want to note the that Brian is not a rep for "sweaty PvP". He said that on the stream as well. He takes a more causal route now when he plays PvP himself. Also, part of the stream was meant to showcase that you don't have to be a sweat to jump into PvP. Brian's take on being more causal in PvP was meant to speak to that.

Also wanted to note that Brian was responsible for running the livestream and keeping things on track. If anyone has livestreamed before, you know there are a lot of moving parts to make sure things stay on track, so sometimes questions get missed. We're all human, so these things happen.

Just as a reminder, all we ask for this thread is to keep conversations and/or criticism more generally, rather than at a specific team member. We're taking feedback to the team for how we can better address Battlegrounds, livestreams showcasing content, and the PvP community in general. As along as we stay constructive, we can keep the thread open. Thanks for the feedback so far.

I appreciate the call here @ZOS_Kevin

I do hope that this thread remains a constructive source of feedback for PvP.

I want to echo something Kevin said here regarding Brian. I have personally met him. He is a super nice person. He genuinely wants the best. I agree wholeheartedly with Kevin's description here about the motivations and intent.

Insofar as my general feedback: I am going to agree with the large number of voices about the current state of PvP that everyone is too darn tanky, with only highly disruptive proc sets like Rush of Agony and organized groups (i.e., "ball groups") able to have an offensive impact.

What I would have like to see most from the stream is that a more "casual" PvP showcase (as was the intention if Brian's PoV) to contributing in PvP to not be the very sort of low-damage tank " just to annoy people in PVP." I think it is very revealing the mindset for a non "sweaty" player taking the more casual route would in the 2024 PvP meta would default to a proc set defensive oriented setup that has zero chance to even threaten another player's health bar. That is absolutely discouraging and emblematic of why I do not find PvP fun anymore.

Estin

I'm a casual PvPer. I didn't start getting into it until August this year. In the short time doing it, I've learned enough to survive, put out some damage, and recognize what pain points that need (not should) to be addressed. All I can say is that I'm simply displeased by the showcasing in this stream and am completely discouraged to continue with PvP if this is what's to be expected in PvP moving forward. I had fun in my short time with it, but I don't see much point in continuing it anymore.

blktauna

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Sypher sure picked a strange time to return. This update is a huge stinker.

They paid him

And Seriously how is the Lead Combat Dev unable to answer combat questions and be seemingly unaware of basic combat techniques like HA resource management?

Cooperharley

Estin wrote: »

I'm a casual PvPer. I didn't start getting into it until August this year. In the short time doing it, I've learned enough to survive, put out some damage, and recognize what pain points that need (not should) to be addressed. All I can say is that I'm simply displeased by the showcasing in this stream and am completely discouraged to continue with PvP if this is what's to be expected in PvP moving forward. I had fun in my short time with it, but I don't see much point in continuing it anymore.

This is the sentiment of many long time PvPers. The upside to streams like this is they can ~potentially~ bring in lots of new players, garner support for the game, and just increase the spotlight, right? But that can absolutely bite you in the butt!

Major combat developers being unable to give your special guest any answers about what’s going on is not a good thing. And with certain sentiments like the overly-tanky META being a nuisance and a bad feel for that aspect of the game being extremely prevalent and then said devs saying they enjoy playing that playstyle is… not an exciting thing to hear to say the least. I get it! Have fun YOUR way. BUT - there are a number of issues that are ~seemingly~ ignored and pushed under the rug and not only did this stream highlight the issues but it did, in fact, the opposite of what I think they wanted which was to excite people about the “big new PvP update!” Seems like it just simply bummed out a lot of people frankly.

This is not a personal bash by any means, but it’s simply a comment about priorities NEEDING to change, or the game will continue to bleed loyal and long term players. There hasn’t been much of anything for me personally, outside of the POTENTIAL golden pursuits has, that has genuinely excited me in a few years now unfortunately. The game will always have a special place in my heart, which is why I care and participate in the forums, but man, I want my favorite MMO to be so much better than it is currently

Rkindaleft

Jaimeh wrote: »

DemonicGoat wrote: »

Yea, That stream was insightful as to why things are they way they are around combat,pvp,bgs,etc. (IMO)

Syphers question to Brian at 01:33:40

The VOD is here:

10th anniversary..

Poss wrote: »

Sypher’s question “what is that Arcanist hard cc called” was met with complete silence from the head PvP guy because he just didn’t know. And then Brian’s claim he wasn’t a tank despite running Maras, Hist, 40k health and literally walking around the entire arena perma blocking.

This whole stream told me all I needed to know about the Dev’s opinion of PvP. I walked away feeling an intense sensation of emptiness. They really do not have a clue what the PvP playerbase want even Sypher looked bored out of his mind. This was exactly why he left the game in the first place

This is worrisome, they don't know or play their own game enough, this is the lead combat designer right there.

When the developers don’t understand the game as well as random people on the forums…

This is exactly what happened at U35. We told them to stop with the spreadsheet balancing and listen to the players. They ignored us because “the players don’t know what they want.”

Well, we know how the game plays better than ZOS, that’s for sure.

The_Meathead

If Brian isn't the "sweaty PvP rep," who is?

Please tell me we have one or even several!

There needs to be someone who gets PvP at that level, who is current and aware, that is involved in the direction at a high enough position to have influence.

It's all well and good to say he was supposed to represent the casual PvPer playing in a BG, but that's hardly inspirational for the players watching in a way that makes us feel confidence our concerns are his, that he has his thumb on the gameplay and atmosphere he's in charge of, or that we'll see improvement.

I don't say this to attack him as a person or his position, but if he's not the "sweaty PvP" guy with some authority? That's entirely fine and I really appreciate his participation, but we absolutely need someone who has that as a focus too, in addition to Brian overseeing all of ESO's combat.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Hey all, adding onto what Kevin posted earlier in this thread we'd like to address a few pieces of feedback we’ve seen about yesterday’s stream and more broadly touch on some of our communication philosophies.

First and foremost, thank you to everyone who has maintained constructiveness in this discussion thread. We’ve always said that constructive critical feedback is welcome and valuable, and we do mean it. As many of you who have been around awhile know, we also typically do not allow discussions about specific developers or the dev team. We prefer discussions focus on the game, as discussions about individual devs or the team often turn personal in a bad way. That said, we appreciate the efforts by most in this discussion to remain constructive and will leave it open so long as that continues. We do still encourage focusing commentary on the game, though, and not individual devs.

On the topic of our developers, we’ve seen through the years commentary around expectations of developer skill levels, especially with the more competitive PVP and PVE content. It's not expected that a developer has god-tier skill at the game. We have a wide range of skills and interests on the team, just like within our community. We range from progression pushers to casual players and everything in between, and that allows us to account for all player types - not just the god-tier ones.
This goes for knowledge about the game, too. ESO is a huge game with a lot of remember and track. We don't expect perfect encyclopedic recall of every piece a developer has ever worked on. Spacing on a name of an ability while running a stream or taking part in an interview doesn't mean that developer doesn't know the game or skills. It means they’re human.

On the topic of communication, we want to be able to talk with you all more, get out there and play with game with you more, do more livestreams, etc. When a developer puts themselves out there and is met with unrealistic expectations and general personal attacks, it makes them not want to do any of those things again. So please, if you want more communication from us, keep in mind to be respectful and constructive. It’s okay to be frustrated, disappointed, unhappy with something, etc. and we only ask that you communicate that to us without bashing our developers in the process. Anecdotally, we also want players of all skill levels to feel welcome to try out things like PVP Battlegrounds, Cyrodiil, dungeons, and trials, and feel okay with not necessarily being top-tier at it. It's always disappointing to see gatekeeping commentary and behavior – that’s not in the spirit of our community.

On the topic of some of the issues and concerns you all have called out, we are looking into why there are still some queuing issues like the ones you saw us encounter yesterday during the stream. We are aware of them and are digging into whether they’re due to people disconnecting, people declining the invite, or if something else is going on. We are also working on improving our MMR logic so that it provides a better experience and more balanced matches.

This was long, so if you read it all, thank you. 😊 The team here does care, very much, and we want to get out there and interact with you more. Please remember there are hardworking individuals behind the names, and a little kindness can go a long way.

acastanza_ESO

I had the pleasure to meet Brian at the San Diego meetup. He very clearly does care about PVP in ESO (whether or not I personally think he might be one of the only one's at ZOS who does is beside the point).

Dragging him for not remembering that the "Arc stun", with that little description, is "Rune of the Colorless Pool" (I googled it) is absolutely ridiculous, and it really reflects poorly on the community.

That said, the PVP community, top to bottom, is very frustrated with the state of the game currently, how it doesn't seem to be a priority for the dev team at large, and how broken so much of the game balance is. There's been an attitude among players where we feel like "the dev's don't play/don't understand the game", so I can understand why a combat dev in such a prominent position not dominating at a battleground could be seen to reinforce that belief.

If ZOS had been more open in communicating about the vision for PVP, particularly in Cyrodiil (which is by far more popular than BGs, and should have been first in line to get any kind of new content), and combat balance, I think the conversation would be significantly less toxic than it is right now.

silky_soft

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, just wanted to follow up here. Normally, we do not leave threads open that specifically call out an individual dev team member. We will be editing the title for that reason. However, it seems like there is some constructive conversation here in this thread. So we want to make sure to keep constructive conversations around for us to reflect on later. All we ask is that those conversations try to address criticisms more generally, rather than at an individual team member. As along as we stay constructive, we can keep the thread open.

We do want to note the that Brian is not a rep for "sweaty PvP". He said that on the stream as well. He takes a more causal route now when he plays PvP himself. Also, part of the stream was meant to showcase that you don't have to be a sweat to jump into PvP. Brian's take on being more causal in PvP was meant to speak to that.

Also wanted to note that Brian was responsible for running the livestream and keeping things on track. If anyone has livestreamed before, you know there are a lot of moving parts to make sure things stay on track, so sometimes questions get missed. We're all human, so these things happen.

Just as a reminder, all we ask for this thread is to keep conversations and/or criticism more generally, rather than at a specific team member. We're taking feedback to the team for how we can better address Battlegrounds, livestreams showcasing content, and the PvP community in general. As along as we stay constructive, we can keep the thread open. Thanks for the feedback so far.

Can he stream on a VPN to Australia, Brazil or Japan next time or any dev streaming. Be great if they could get a non server side perspective.

Destai

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

On the topic of communication, we want to be able to talk with you all more, get out there and play with game with you more, do more livestreams, etc. When a developer puts themselves out there and is met with unrealistic expectations and general personal attacks, it makes them not want to do any of those things again. So please, if you want more communication from us, keep in mind to be respectful and constructive. It’s okay to be frustrated, disappointed, unhappy with something, etc. and we only ask that you communicate that to us without bashing our developers in the process. Anecdotally, we also want players of all skill levels to feel welcome to try out things like PVP Battlegrounds, Cyrodiil, dungeons, and trials, and feel okay with not necessarily being top-tier at it. It's always disappointing to see gatekeeping commentary and behavior – that’s not in the spirit of our community.

Please don't let the negative people scare you guys away. Just saying you'll stop communicating because there's some bad eggs really does us all a disservice. That hasn't helped the game. If anything, sparse or stopped communications just makes things worse for you guys. Just look at how many people bombard your streams about PVP.

There's clearly a lot of pent-up frustration in the community because you guys really don't give us paragraphs like this often. And when players do constructively communicate, in these forums and Reddit, and give you guys detailed feedback, the vast majority of what we get back is "we're passing it along". If we're giving you guys detailed feedback, it's only fair to expect detailed responses.

Now, we had this stream - which was wonderful - where the lead combat developer wasn't able to speak some concerns or system mechanics. I get it - people stumble, people get nervous. Like you said, he's human. But, we've been after you guys for roadmaps, Q&As and AMAs and just general back-and-forth for years. Those suggestions are important. They give you something to prep for, and get everyone calmly to the table.

Back in U35, you guys rescinded a Q&A that really should've happened. That left a very bad taste in many people's mouths, that people still lament to this day. The changes themselves were confusing to many people. So there's this impression that the developers aren't even close to the players' skills on the system they themselves design. There's concern that the development is focused on spreadsheets over feel. It was further made worse when the class rep program was closed down with no visible replacement.

Because of that history, when people see the lead combat designer (or any ZOS rep) stream, they see it as their one chance to be heard. When there's such a long history of changes that go against our feedback - like U35, the nightblade permaglow, etc. - and you guys turtling up when things get heated, you're going to keep dealing with these kinds of situations. I'm telling you this so you guys can find a way to address the old frustration and turn over a new leaf where paragraphs like this are more commonplace from ZOS.

People are thirsty for conversation with you guys. They really are. Please don't turtle up. Nothing is going to replace open, transparent communication.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

This was long, so if you read it all, thank you. 😊 The team here does care, very much, and we want to get out there and interact with you more. Please remember there are hardworking individuals behind the names, and a little kindness can go a long way.

Thank you, Jessica. I read it all, wonderful post. Keep 'em coming. And let Brian know at least one person wants to see him stream more.

Personofsecrets

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

It's always disappointing to see gatekeeping commentary and behavior – that’s not in the spirit of our community.

Earlier, I produced the idea that sweaty players can come up with ideas that are to the benefit of not just themselves, but other players too. Changes advocated by sweats can be good for those are are more casual.

The idea of gatekeeping should be seen in a similar way. There are some types of play which may appeal to a certain player, but also gatekeep others from participation. The people here disappointed with tank based play or bomb setups, for example, are being gatekept to some extent.

I think that the best that the game can do is to continue to offer different modes for players who enjoy different things. In such a way, fewer people are gatekept from enjoying some part of ESO.

It is interesting that there seem to be game aspects where a consensus of players agree that those aspects should change. So who is the beneficiary of those game aspects? Is it really the casual players? It seems doubtful that casual players who have less knowledge will be less frustrated by challenging game mechanics than those who play alot and have a deeper understanding of why the frustrating thing just happened.

Estin

Cooperharley wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

I'm a casual PvPer. I didn't start getting into it until August this year. In the short time doing it, I've learned enough to survive, put out some damage, and recognize what pain points that need (not should) to be addressed. All I can say is that I'm simply displeased by the showcasing in this stream and am completely discouraged to continue with PvP if this is what's to be expected in PvP moving forward. I had fun in my short time with it, but I don't see much point in continuing it anymore.

This is the sentiment of many long time PvPers. The upside to streams like this is they can ~potentially~ bring in lots of new players, garner support for the game, and just increase the spotlight, right? But that can absolutely bite you in the butt!

Major combat developers being unable to give your special guest any answers about what’s going on is not a good thing. And with certain sentiments like the overly-tanky META being a nuisance and a bad feel for that aspect of the game being extremely prevalent and then said devs saying they enjoy playing that playstyle is… not an exciting thing to hear to say the least. I get it! Have fun YOUR way. BUT - there are a number of issues that are ~seemingly~ ignored and pushed under the rug and not only did this stream highlight the issues but it did, in fact, the opposite of what I think they wanted which was to excite people about the “big new PvP update!” Seems like it just simply bummed out a lot of people frankly.

This is not a personal bash by any means, but it’s simply a comment about priorities NEEDING to change, or the game will continue to bleed loyal and long term players. There hasn’t been much of anything for me personally, outside of the POTENTIAL golden pursuits has, that has genuinely excited me in a few years now unfortunately. The game will always have a special place in my heart, which is why I care and participate in the forums, but man, I want my favorite MMO to be so much better than it is currently

I can say as a casual PvPer that one of the most discouraging things about getting into PvP is hitting somebody and not having their healthbar move an inch. Over time I've learned to ignore the builds that only serve as a distraction, but it only goes so far because there are builds that can have both high defenses and high damage, or a healer being capable of negating damage for an entire group, something that the new BGs has really amplified. What discourages me from the showcase is the play style appears to be here to stay and not seen as a pain point for PvP. Before I could see pass it with the hope that it would be addressed in the future, but now I'm not so sure it would. It makes me only want to hop into cyrodiil to siege during whitestrakes and not go back until the next one.

ForumSavant

Biggest problems with the stream, as well as people's comments here.

Obviously the Bethesda stream group was not anywhere near what a "sweaty" PvP group would consist of. At the start of Sypher's game you could see his camera was zoomed in, he was roll dodging without being under any pressure, and would even incap and then roll dodge to cancel it without knowing.
The average player is much better nowadays than they were 4-6 years ago, as is the case with any game that has been out for a long period of time. Even the other group of streamers that were advertised along with the Bethesda stream would get beaten very badly on multiple occasions, and they are admittedly much better than the group on Bethesda's main stream. The issue most people have is with Brian and other employees of ZOS being part of the balance team but not performing well in PvP, and then people assuming that this makes balancing of PvP bad, even though the current iteration of balance isn't bad.

This leads to the second issue, the players complaining will always complain about things they don't like or don't perform well against, as is evident by the comments here that say mainly the same thing, rush is too strong. I agree, rush WAS very strong, with it being changed to a 1 second delay on the pull going off, it became very very easy to block and play against. Those who continue to complain and call it unbalanced are the same as the dev team they are complaining about. The only thing that makes rush strong is the fact that it does not apply CC immunity on pull, but it actually pulling you is easy to counterplay.

The overall biggest problem with the stream wasn't even the performance of the players on stream, it was the MASSIVE issues with the BGs themselves. Multiple BGs never started because sometimes teams would have 7 out of 8 people needed, and it would not fill, even with people qued in to make it fill. This happened multiple BGs in a row and there was a huge lull in action on the stream. They would wait 5 minutes, the BG would end, and it would happen again. The simple fix for this is to make it work the way dungeon finder does and make the match not start unless people accept it, a ready check to get in, along with penalties for declining multiple times. If you miss the que by accident or something comes up, no problem, if you do it twice in a row it happens but you get a 1 minute timeout, then a 15 minute, etc. with it resetting once you actually accept a BG. The current BG que system is much worse than this. You can decline a que with only a 30 second penalty and completely ruin the game for those that accepted it, and then just que again, decline, same 30 second penalty, and continue to ruin it for the people that accepted.

Overall, when you combine the performance of the players as well as the bugs preventing the BGs from even starting, it was a let down for those watching. From a marketing standpoint I don't know why you would stream that if you know the BGs don't start often, and it would just make the system look bad, and I know the devs are aware of this because it was mentioned several times in the PTS discussion of the BG system.

Decimus

100% Agreed on what @ZOS_JessicaFolsom & @ZOS_Kevin wrote above; you can't just bash people and expect something positive out of it, there's nothing constructive about that.

It was fun watching things from Brian's point of view and I really appreciate the developers for taking the time to PvP with us!

You can't expect everyone to be a god-tier PvPer, I'm sure there's developers of varying skill levels on the ZOS team and I think in general it's better to try and teach and help people who are a bit more casual to get better at PvP than it is to just point and laugh or bash them... the latter only drives people away from PvP.


I hope we'll see more dev team PvP streams in the future and if you guys need help with builds or tips don't hesitate to hit up some of the more experienced PvPers, I'm sure a lot of them would be happy to help!

blktauna

There's a big difference between expecting god tier and expecting the combat designer to know that heavy attacks restore resources.

I expected competency. Sypher not so much as he's only there when paid and I still have no idea why they keep bring him on. Saenyra was excellent and I was sad for her to be saddled with those guys.

I would like to see more pvp streams as well, but please with some people who actually play. Its a very bad look when stuff like this goes down. No one here wants a bad look.

fizzylu

ForumSavant wrote: »

The overall biggest problem with the stream wasn't even the performance of the players on stream, it was the MASSIVE issues with the BGs themselves. Multiple BGs never started because sometimes teams would have 7 out of 8 people needed, and it would not fill, even with people qued in to make it fill. This happened multiple BGs in a row and there was a huge lull in action on the stream. They would wait 5 minutes, the BG would end, and it would happen again. The simple fix for this is to make it work the way dungeon finder does and make the match not start unless people accept it, a ready check to get in, along with penalties for declining multiple times. If you miss the que by accident or something comes up, no problem, if you do it twice in a row it happens but you get a 1 minute timeout, then a 15 minute, etc. with it resetting once you actually accept a BG. The current BG que system is much worse than this. You can decline a que with only a 30 second penalty and completely ruin the game for those that accepted it, and then just que again, decline, same 30 second penalty, and continue to ruin it for the people that accepted.

Agreed, I feel like there's a weird focus on how Brian played (although I do understand how his playstyle can be conflicting for players who want to see PvP go away from those kinds of builds, myself included), but I'd personally argue that even outside of performance.... the 2 team BGs just don't make for entertaining/fun looking gameplay.
I showed that stream to some people I know that used to play ESO (I even posted it on my Facebook along with a status about it), and yeah.... ignoring how Brian was playing; no one saw the other players in the matches fighting, no one saw the new maps, no one saw just simply the 4v4 or 8v8 and thought "I think I'll check out the game again/for the first time". And most didn't even comment on the matches failing to start, they were all focused on how boring and unengaging it all looked-- and of course old players were talking about how bad combat balance looked along with how there still seems to be a tanky meta.
Absolutely no one I showed that stream to had interest in playing the game. If anything, it only cemented or even made their already bad opinion of the game worse. And I wouldn't even attempt to post what the people (ones that have played ESO and ones that haven't) on the status I made about it had to say about the game and it's BGs here since I know what that would result in for me, haha.

ZDunlain

DemonicGoat wrote: »

Yea, That stream was insightful as to why things are they way they are around combat,pvp,bgs,etc. (IMO)

Syphers question to Brian at 01:33:40

The VOD is here:

10th anniversary..

Poss wrote: »

Sypher’s question “what is that Arcanist hard cc called” was met with complete silence from the head PvP guy because he just didn’t know. And then Brian’s claim he wasn’t a tank despite running Maras, Hist, 40k health and literally walking around the entire arena perma blocking.

This whole stream told me all I needed to know about the Dev’s opinion of PvP. I walked away feeling an intense sensation of emptiness. They really do not have a clue what the PvP playerbase want even Sypher looked bored out of his mind. This was exactly why he left the game in the first place

I left this game 2 months ago because of PvP state in general as a sweaty PvP player and mainly templar main and watching the stream makes me laugh a lot, the main PvP players are not well represented because of what we saw on the stream. My god now I can verify many questions I had about balance and this things.

I came here once every 2 weeks to see what is going on but man, hope they realize that PvP needs more love, we got this bg thing that I didnt test and I will not test it unless they give more than that to PvP and more in terms of balance. Sadly I played constantly since 2016 and I gave up on this, expectations on every update made burn myself. Great game for chill players and casuals but in my opinion not too great for endgame players and specifically for PvP.

Stamicka

I know that Sypher is a big streamer now and all, but I would have liked to see someone who actively plays the game. Sypher seemed about as bored and unhappy with the game as I am, so it was a tough stream to watch. I think playing with an active player would result in more engaging questions being asked.

From the perspective of promoting the game itself, I don't think that this stream hit the mark. One of my biggest pain points with BGs and the game in general is the fact that you can run the highest possible damage build in the game, but you will still encounter a lot of builds that you simply can't kill on your own. I think many people who have quit the game or even Sypher himself would have listed that as a pain point if asked. If I didn't keep up with ESO and I tuned into this stream to see if the state of the game has changed, I would only be witnessing the very thing that I dislike most about the game. It would solidify my decision to not come back.

One thing about BGs is that the only game mode that is not winnable by a group of unkillable builds is deathmatch. As we saw on the stream, you can make yourself tanky enough to where players will avoid you to not waste time. However, the tanky player can still capture relics, interrupt people, and stand on flags during domination and crazy king. At some point, it's difficult to call battlegrounds "PvP" if players are avoiding each other to capture objectives. After watching this stream, I don't expect that this will be addressed soon since this is how a lead developer engages with BGs.

fizzylu

Stamicka wrote: »

I know that Sypher is a big streamer now and all, but I would have liked to see someone who actively plays the game. Sypher seemed about as bored and unhappy with the game as I am, so it was a tough stream to watch. I think playing with an active player would result in more engaging questions being asked.

I think this is exactly why it was good to have Sypher there. Brian was already there filling the role of "someone who thinks everything is just dandy" and clearly the BG rework was intended to pull in more players to BGs and overall, the game.... so having only people who are content or questionably somehow happy with the current state of things would have taken away from the facts that many people (I'd even dare to say most people) don't enjoy what combat, and of course BGs, in ESO have become.

Stamicka

fizzylu wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

I know that Sypher is a big streamer now and all, but I would have liked to see someone who actively plays the game. Sypher seemed about as bored and unhappy with the game as I am, so it was a tough stream to watch. I think playing with an active player would result in more engaging questions being asked.

I think this is exactly why it was good to have Sypher there. Brian was already there filling the role of "someone who thinks everything is just dandy" and clearly the BG rework was intended to pull in more players to BGs and overall, the game.... so having only people who are content or questionably somehow happy with the current state of things would have taken away from the facts that many people (I'd even dare to say most people) don't enjoy what combat, and of course BGs, in ESO have become.

I don't think the player has to be content with the game, but it would be nice if they were interested enough to ask questions that would give more insight about the game's design choices. For example, an active player would know that Rush of Agony is pulling them, so they wouldn't ask "what is pulling me?" instead they might ask "what was the idea behind designing this set?" or a broader question about pulls in general. Many players hated dark convergence and rush of agony when they first came out, but it seems like ZOS has only doubled down on pulls in PvP by adding more to the game and even making them apart of scribing. I personally don't understand the intent of such additions and it would really be nice to understand what the developers are trying to do.

Pelanora

When people go to Wimbledon for the British Open, they expect one kind of tennis. When they watch a game at their local courts, they expect another.

Maybe the lead for combat isn't top tier, but putting him in a stream-- well that's about managing expectations. Was it about giving people Wimbledon or a fun game at some local club among friends.

If people think they're in for real show of skill, then the players need to be skilled enough to give it to them.

Jierdanit

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

First and foremost, thank you to everyone who has maintained constructiveness in this discussion thread. We’ve always said that constructive critical feedback is welcome and valuable, and we do mean it.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

On the topic of communication, we want to be able to talk with you all more, get out there and play with game with you more, do more livestreams, etc. When a developer puts themselves out there and is met with unrealistic expectations and general personal attacks, it makes them not want to do any of those things again. So please, if you want more communication from us, keep in mind to be respectful and constructive. It’s okay to be frustrated, disappointed, unhappy with something, etc. and we only ask that you communicate that to us without bashing our developers in the process. Anecdotally, we also want players of all skill levels to feel welcome to try out things like PVP Battlegrounds, Cyrodiil, dungeons, and trials, and feel okay with not necessarily being top-tier at it. It's always disappointing to see gatekeeping commentary and behavior – that’s not in the spirit of our community.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

This was long, so if you read it all, thank you. 😊 The team here does care, very much, and we want to get out there and interact with you more. Please remember there are hardworking individuals behind the names, and a little kindness can go a long way.

You can say that you care about feedback as much as you want.
As long as that is not actually reflected in the changes made by your dev team that means absolutely nothing.

You have been ignoring almost any feedback given to you by the players for so long that most of us have accepted that you are never going to actually listen to us.

People bash the developers because it seems like that is the only way to get any "meaningful" reactions out of you.
If you want the players to continue with constructive feedback you should probably start actually listening to it, instead of saying: "we have heard the feedback" and then still doing the complete opposite of what the players have been telling you.

Erickson9610

Honestly, it's no wonder the developers don't want to communicate with the community as freely if this is the kind of response they get — the community asks for open communication with the developers, only for the community to bash the developers for failing to meet the community's unrealistic expectations.


I know you all love this game (at least enough to make a forum account and use it) but the demographic on the forums is the exception in this case; it is hardly representative of the playerbase as a whole.