Anti-Teabagging Policy now encouraging even worse toxic behavior

Amottica

Elsonso wrote: »

Wait, they updated the "teabagging rules" away from "no means no"?

It has not changed and no one gets banned for a teabagging offense. It may be the last straw that leads to a ban, but there is much more to the situation than a single teabagging incident.

If this is a new tactic some children use, Zenimax will quickly tire of wasting their time and take action against the real offenders since it is harassment. That is the very reason why they adopted their stance on teabagging to start with.

Syldras

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

In real life and in the real world, there have ALWAYS been "Rules of Engagement" that expect even people in War to maintain some semblance of actual humanity. That's why we try people who break those rules for "War Crimes".

Thank you. This is a misconception I often come across, probably coming from action movies and games where some macho type character just shoots at everyone and everything that moves (I have nothing against shooter games, btw, but that's simplified entertainment, unrelated to reality).

Amottica

Syldras wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

In real life and in the real world, there have ALWAYS been "Rules of Engagement" that expect even people in War to maintain some semblance of actual humanity. That's why we try people who break those rules for "War Crimes".

Thank you. This is a misconception I often come across, probably coming from action movies and games where some macho type character just shoots at everyone and everything that moves (I have nothing against shooter games, btw, but that's simplified entertainment, unrelated to reality).

They did not seem to be talking about shooter games but real life as they stated.

Syldras

Amottica wrote: »

They did not seem to be talking about shooter games but real life as they stated.

This is exactly what I mean: Mainstream media (action games, movies) often give people a warped view about war. They often just show some buff guy armed to the teeth shooting at everything that moves. There's nothing about how to treat civilians or enemy combatants who surrender. There's nothing about the many rules that exist in real life.

SteveCampsOut

Syldras wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

In real life and in the real world, there have ALWAYS been "Rules of Engagement" that expect even people in War to maintain some semblance of actual humanity. That's why we try people who break those rules for "War Crimes".

Thank you. This is a misconception I often come across, probably coming from action movies and games where some macho type character just shoots at everyone and everything that moves (I have nothing against shooter games, btw, but that's simplified entertainment, unrelated to reality).

I am not sure what you are calling a misconception. Human behavior is the same both in the real world and in games and media, and it is up to society to decide how they want to treat people who behave inhumanely both in the real world and in games. The game makers set rules of behavior that are somewhat close to real life rules, and the players need to figure them out and abide by them as well as hold each other accountable to them.

Techwolf_Lupindo

A lot of folks are failing to grasp the concept that when one consent to combat(PvP), does not mean consent to sexual harassment.

Syldras

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

I am not sure what you are calling a misconception.

The statements that come up almost every single time when it's about behavior in PvP, claiming that showing other players courtesy was nonsense because "real war knows no rules either", showcasing an ahistorical view that seems to stem directly from Hollywood action movies.

I was grateful that you corrected this - if you hadn't done it, I would have written about it. It is a view I, as a historian, come across very often: People believing war is (as horrible as it sounds) some big playground where everyone just shoots every enemy and that's it, being completele unaware about the International Humanitarian Law or any earlier laws regarding lawful behaviour in war (which exist since antiquity, already the Code of Hammurabi had passages about this topic).

We don't have to debate that, sadly, these laws are often broken, but as you already said, these acts are considered war crimes; which again shows that there are strict behavioral rules and it's not about randomly running around and slaughtering everyone and then desecrating their corpses.

I hope I have clarified what I mean. I'm not a native English speaker.

GLP323b14_ESO

I for one enjoy being tea-bagged.

I'll lay there for EVER waiting to be tea-bagged. Alas, nobody does. 😥

BXR_Lonestar

Amottica wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Wait, they updated the "teabagging rules" away from "no means no"?

If this is a new tactic some children use, Zenimax will quickly tire of wasting their time and take action against the real offenders since it is harassment.

The policy is DEFINITELY being weaponized to target and try to eliminate good players in the opposite alliance, which is a problem. Whether people like it or not, Teabagging has been a thing in competitive games since before ESO even existed. Its not something new and it is a common practice among highly competitive players. Except now, you have players who squeal with glee at the opportunity to now hide behind this new policy, knowing full well they're guilty of the same offense, and it is just middle-school/high-school level stuff. It's utterly ridiculous, and IMO, the atmosphere has become even more toxic because of it.

spartaxoxo

It is very easy to not tea bag someone that asks. And if you don't think you can, it's also easy to not tea bag at sll. So, it can only really be weaponized against someone who chooses to let it be used against in them.

LadyGP

Honestly it's just the same 5-10 people who complain about t-bagging over and over and over and over.

It's not as big of an issue as they are trying to make it seem.

SilverBride

Every few seconds a player is taunting another player with this is time they could have been using to defeat another player.

LadyGP

SilverBride wrote: »

Every few seconds a player is taunting another player with this is time they could have been using to defeat another player.

Just curious, if a rival guild t bags my guild or we t bag them (in good fun we send GG good fight whispers all the time) how does this affect you?

you also underestimate my bagging efficiency. Throw AoE/Ulti down while getting a bag in on the move.

ZoS has given their stance on t bagging. Play as you want is the name of the game. Seems like you even agree.

NordSwordnBoard

SilverBride wrote: »

Every few seconds a player is taunting another player with this is time they could have been using to defeat another player.

It's very rare, so I will take this opportunity to fully agree with you. I share this view, I am on to the next kill or objective immediately. I take pride in my situational awareness in PvP. I watch with weapons ready for a NB to go and bomb or gank those bagging, and try to stop that NB. I do this not because I want bagging to happen so badly, but because they are my allies. I still refuse to scold anybody, even if they get killed while bagging. I can laugh at them for dying, and they usually laugh as well. "To each their own" works best imo.

SilverBride

LadyGP wrote: »

Play as you want is the name of the game.

Play as you want within the confines of the ToS.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

Play as you want within the confines of the ToS.

Teabagging is playing as you want within the confines of the TOS. It is not generally a violation. This isn't a matter of opinion, we have a direct response from Zenimax and they determine what is and isn't a TOS violation. It can be used to harass people. So, if someone asks you to stop then you must. Harassment is a tos violation. But, teabagging, in and of itself is not.

Edit: the royal you, not you or anyone else in this thread in particular.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all. We wanted to address the recent conversations around teabagging and proper etiquette around the action in-game. In the past, we have noted that context matters when teabagging in-game and when responding to that action. Teabagging in-game is generally not a direct violation of ToS. However, when an impacted player asks you to stop and you refuse, that is when we have crossed into targeted harassment territory.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/662880/teabagging-update-would-be-good-before-mym/p3#Comment_8157509

Emphasis mine. Click the link to view the full quote. This is just a brief snippet of the full post.

SilverBride

I understand what their stand is on teabagging. But do we really want something to be left to interpretation, knowing how each person's perception may be different?

The simplest solution is just don't do it.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

I understand what their stand is on teabagging. But do we really want something to be left to interpretation, knowing how each person's perception may be different?

The simplest solution is just don't do it.

Yes. Because context determines whether or not a ban is appropriate. Teabagging, like most forms of communication, has different meanings depending on context. It is not accurate to say it always malicious. It also not accurate to say it is always friendly banter and everyone who doesn't like it must get over themselves. Both of those stances ignore context imo.

Friendly banter requires it to be fun for both participants. And yes, some people use it as exactly that with friends and rivals.

I don't want innocent players punished for having fun with one another. And I don't want those who harass others to be able to that unchecked. Context being the determining factor helps to prevent both of those.

SilverBride

Teabagging only has one meaning, and we are not even allowed to post a definition because of how explicit it is. That alone should make it unacceptable.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

Teabagging only has one meaning, and we are not even allowed to post a definition because of how explicit it is. That alone should make it unacceptable.

Untrue. It could mean an explicit act. It can also just mean celebrate one's victory over an opponent in a video game.

SilverBride

It still represents a lewd action.

LadyGP

SilverBride wrote: »

I understand what their stand is on teabagging. But do we really want something to be left to interpretation, knowing how each person's perception may be different?

The simplest solution is just don't do it.

The simplest solution is to just move along - TBH. I think you're trying to make a problem out of something that really isn't a problem in the grand scheme of things.

For the sake of an argument lets say they ban it.

I'm not on my NB in a big field fight. I want to try to bomb a group, I go into stealth and there are the remains of 20 EP around me - I stealth while on top of them.

BUT *GASP* at that exact moment someone spots me and pops me out of stealth. I have to think quick on my feet so I uncrouch and prepare to fight.

This all happens in the span of two seconds.

Did I just tbag someone? No.

Do the dead EP on the ground think I tbagged them? Maybe - more than likely yes.

They report me. Do I get banned? Maybe. I don't have any clips to prove my side of it.

This isn't a position I want ZoS in - we have seen they tend to over police things.

So - "The simplest solution" is to keep it how it is and not make it against ToS.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

It still represents a lewd action.

I mean that's the origin of flipping the bird as well. But, that's "ancient" history at this point. And people can recognize the difference between someone doing that as a joke among friends and someone doing it with malicious intent. We even have a bird flipping emote that is uses absurdity humor. Like bird flipping, it really depends on context whether or not it's playful or lewd. A lot of people just mean "lol you lost."

SilverBride

I think the player on the ground knows they lost without having a lewd gesture made over their face.

Desiato

SilverBride wrote: »

I understand what their stand is on teabagging. But do we really want something to be left to interpretation, knowing how each person's perception may be different?

It's not up to interpretation any more than other forms of harassment.

They don't have a specific policy for teabagging. It falls under their general harassment policy. Following someone around blowing kisses to them after they've asked you not to is as against the rules as teabagging after someone has asked the other party not to.

SilverBride wrote: »

The simplest solution is just don't do it.

Sure, that's very simple. But what's not simple is enforcing that as a rule that everyone must obey, which is a hopeless cause anyway.

It's hopeless because you can ban a word or gesture and even go to extremes to successfully enforce it, only for a new word or gesture to emerge with the same meaning.

The actual practical solution here is for people to put the act of crouching and uncrouching repeatedly into perspective and respond accordingly.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Like bird flipping, it really depends on context whether or not it's playful or lewd. A lot of people just mean "lol you lost."

It is essentially sticking ones tongue out and saying "nyah nyah!"

The heinous behaviour described in this thread isn't teabagging, it's the act of trying to get other players suspended or banned. ZOS should make it clear that there is zero tolerance for weaponizing rules and permanently ban anyone caught conspiring to have another player banned in this way.

SilverBride

If I was a great PvPer and I felt like I was being mass reported for teabagging by an opposing alliance as a means to remove me from the competition the first thing I would do is stop teabagging.

I_killed_Vivec

GLP323b14_ESO wrote: »

I for one enjoy being tea-bagged.

I'll lay there for EVER waiting to be tea-bagged. Alas, nobody does. 😥

Sorry, I'm a bit shy and prefer to be introduced to someone properly before going that far.

It goes against what my mother taught me, but I'll try to be a bit more forward in future.

Xandreia_

SilverBride wrote: »

If I was a great PvPer and I felt like I was being mass reported for teabagging by an opposing alliance as a means to remove me from the competition the first thing I would do is stop teabagging.

just stop -.-

making a mountain out of a mole hill

SilverBride

Why would anyone continue a non essential behavior they know they could be banned for, especially if they feel they are being targeted?

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

If I was a great PvPer and I felt like I was being mass reported for teabagging by an opposing alliance as a means to remove me from the competition the first thing I would do is stop teabagging.

We may not agree on whether it can be all in good fun or not, but I do agree with this. Nobody makes you teabag and it's really easy to avoid