Anti-Teabagging Policy now encouraging even worse toxic behavior

WaywardArgonian

This has been the issue with this context-sensitive policy from the beginning.

In addition to telling people how to report toxic behavior, you are also handing bad actors instructions on how to bait people into doing something they can frame as toxic. This is compounded by the fact that you gave the support team the mission to take context into consideration, making the reporting process more complicated for the player, and the investigation process more complicated for a support team that seems, I'm sorry to say, not equipped to handle such a burden.

I realize context has to be taken into account at times, but the game would benefit a lot from more straight-up 'this behavior is allowed/not allowed' rules. The current system is too complex, prone to abuse, and has resulted in a disciplinary system that seems at times completely random.

TheMajority

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Another game I play frequently is Overwatch. I was playing a healer named Lifeweaver and the enemy was playing a hero named Ana. Ana has an ability called sleep dart that she can use to put an enemy to sleep (stun them) for a few seconds. She caught me with it right after I used my ultimate to try to help my team and then teabagged me afterwards.

I decided to get back and the next fight killed her and returned the favor. Ana types back "LOL." She tried a couple more times to get me but instead I got her.

Later on, I got a very good ultimate that blocked a ton of damage.

Ana says "nice tree LW"

At the end of the game (which I won) our messages went like this

Ana

"GG LW. Teabag wasn't personal."

Me

"LOL I know GG"

And that's it. That's the whole story. My team won but despite teabagging the Ana player had no hard feelings.

I have seen the situations where people say rude, lewd, or other such things. But I have also seen it be entirely friendly.

I understand some people have had nothing but bad experiences with it. That is why I never initiate this action against anyone. But, I fully recognize that others do. And that a context based policy is Zenimax's way of acknowledging those different experiences, all of which are valid.

regardless of what gets said, the very action is not apropriate, even implied by the name itself. it is uncalled for and not an action that should be used in a friendly manner. there are other ways to greet or congradulate someone, regardless of words exchanged the action is inappropriate.

the action should not be used, period, and should be heavily discouraged in gaming communities because of what it represents and simulates. I want to see a no tolerance policy, not a "context" policy. there is no context in which simulating such actions is ok. the context policy forces people who feel they are being harassed to jump through hoops to report.

I even consider the very name of the action inappropriate . It really is time to crack down on this idea that it is okay to use inappropriate things involving non-consensual acts casually or for humor.

i would even say that when a person dies, that the crouch action for enemy players should be disabled within several meters of a corpse to stop this permanently. put a circle around the corpse like around guards in hews bane which disables crouch for enemies and blows them out of stealth.

people would PVP more if they did not have to avoid toxic players doing such things

katanagirl1

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I have been a victim of bullying. I don't see teabagging as bullying. It is not generally a targeted attack. And it is done in the context of competitive activities. And it's been a part of PvP video game culture for decades.

Some people make it personal. But, it is not inherently personal.

There is no way you can say this for every occasion. Not every single person uses it in a friendly manner. You cannot assume that it is okay if you do it to someone who doesn’t know you. You cannot speak for that person.

Even though our avatars are just pixels, they are representations of us online. One character tbagging another is doing an action that is directed at another player, how is that not personal?

spartaxoxo

katanagirl1 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I have been a victim of bullying. I don't see teabagging as bullying. It is not generally a targeted attack. And it is done in the context of competitive activities. And it's been a part of PvP video game culture for decades.

Some people make it personal. But, it is not inherently personal.

There is no way you can say this for every occasion. Not every single person uses it in a friendly manner. You cannot assume that it is okay if you do it to someone who doesn’t know you. You cannot speak for that person.

Even though our avatars are just pixels, they are representations of us online. One character tbagging another is doing an action that is directed at another player, how is that not personal?

I never said I could. I have consistently said it can be both malicious or friendly and that it depends on context. There have been other posts that state that it is always malicious, but I'm not one of them.

It's not personal because there are many people who do it automatically after every kill, or because they accomplished something difficult, etc. It could have been anyone and was not directed at the target as an individual person.

MidniteOwl1913

Xandreia_ wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

I don't want to make a career of celebrating or I'm going to get killed myself. I don't have time to fool around with the emote wheel figuring out which emote best represents the message I'm trying to send so I'll do a quick dragon squat and on my way I go.

Why do anything? The player knows they were defeated. They don't need a gesture directed at them to realize this. And no one is looking at the teabagging player with admiration for pointing this out.

I honestly find it immature but if some think it's so important to their enjoyment then they can keep doing it. Just don't come to the forums to complain if they get banned for it, because they know this is a risk they are taking.

No one is coming to the forums complaining. The only people I see complaining are in this thread and by people who want it banned.

And most of them are NON PVP per their own posts.

thats one of the problems! same as calling it a lewd act, hardly anyone who plays multi player games sees it as that, its more of a "lol you died" or a greeting to a friend on another team, im over explaining that to people because if it isn't their narrative its wrong and you're gonna get a paragraph and a warning from the mods lol

So somehow I'm to blame for feeling shamed because this the only video game I've ever played? Is that what you are saying?

MidniteOwl1913

So if for instance someone did a happy dance around my corpse singing, "I beat you, you couldn't kill a sick mouse, lalala" I wouldn't mind. Yeah I really do s**k at PVP. That I'm 100% ok with. But the teabagging has implications that I can't overlook, it's the nature of that gesture. Not the expression of joy in victory.

And it doesn't matter to me how many people are ok with having it done to them. They are not me. I know what I feel. I know how it makes me feel and that feeling is not ok.

No matter how much fun I thought it was I would never treat another person with this level of disrespect.

SilverBride

There is a thing in competitive sports... football to be specific... where touchdown victory dances are considered unsportsmanlike, and a team can even be penalized if one of their players does this. This is a similar situation, only imuch worse in my opinion, because it involves an explicit act.

The only reason someone does this is to taunt the fallen player. That alone could be considered harassment in my opinion, even if the other player didn't ask them not to do it. In fact, why does the fallen player have to ask not to be teabagged in the first place? Shouldn't the one teabagging be the one to ask their permission before they do it?

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

There is a thing in competitive sports... football to be specific... where touchdown victory dances are considered unsportsmanlike, and a team can even be penalized if one of their players does this. This is a similar situation, only imuch worse in my opinion, because it involves an explicit act.

The only reason someone does this is to taunt the fallen player. That alone could be considered harassment in my opinion, even if the other player didn't ask them not to do it. In fact, why does the fallen player have to ask not to be teabagged in the first place? Shouldn't the one teabagging be the one to ask their permission before they do it?

Because the action isn't inherently harassment. ZOS doesn't impose any one view on its playerbase. It lets each player decide for themselves. It's a very common action in PvP games across the all genres for decades. So, the ones who don't like it opt out.

SilverBride

If players continue to force a lewd act on others then they can't complain if they are banned for it.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

If players continue to force a lewd act on others then they can't complain if they are banned for it.

I agree. If someone asks you to stop, you stop. period. I don't agree with the OP of the thread that you can "baited" into teabagging. If someone is baiting, report them for that. But you don't teabag them anyway.

People aren't being banned for teabagging. They are being banned for continuing to do it after they were asked to stop.

SilverBride

Maybe that needs to change.

ajkb78

Given evidence is required of the request to stop, which can only be provided by the person making the request, all mass reportings should probably be discarded as false reporting in any case. Only one person ever needs to be filing a harassment report and that's the person who feels harassed.

lardvader

Aggrovious

Teabagging is never going away.

Don't get offended or take it personal. You should be allowed to teabag the other player back when you get your revenge. What makes any of this a problem is that fact that ZOS made teabagging a bannable offense, even though its a PVP game.
So, players can now weaponized an action that has been in PVP games for 2 decades as a mass report. Does teabagging stop? HELL no. How do this make any sense?

Maybe they should reverse the policy on this and look into the whispers and reporting system instead. The real toxic nature are whispers. Every week, I learn a new incel phrase because of it, but it doesn't bother me personally. I can see it bothering others though and it should be reported. Especially the occasional life threats. When you make a report, you get a bot response. You have to submit a video to get people banned or mass spam report. An MMO issue that has been out for awhile now.

Elsonso

Aggrovious wrote: »

Teabagging is never going away.

Of course not. It's not a thing that the game does, it is a thing that the players do. Players are never going to stop doing it, or whatever passes as the equivalent.

BXR_Lonestar

SilverBride wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

I don't want to make a career of celebrating or I'm going to get killed myself. I don't have time to fool around with the emote wheel figuring out which emote best represents the message I'm trying to send so I'll do a quick dragon squat and on my way I go.

Why do anything? The player knows they were defeated. They don't need a gesture directed at them to realize this. And no one is looking at the teabagging player with admiration for pointing this out.

I honestly find it immature but if some think it's so important to their enjoyment then they can keep doing it. Just don't come to the forums to complain if they get banned for it, because they know this is a risk they are taking.

Why do a touchdown dance when you get a touchdown? Why celebrate winning a big case at work? Why do anything to celebrate life's accomplishments? Because it feels good to see the fruits of your labor. I know this is a game and it's not productive, but people put a lot of time and effort to perfect their builds, so when they work, we have the same urge to celebrate as people do when they accomplish something productive in life. It is quite literally just one of those things that you do - when something good happens in a competitive environment, you want to celebrate.

And Teabagging, IMO, is not hyper-sexualized like the name would imply. Honestly, it has been something that has been done since the days of Halo: Combat Evolved. A quick little squat celebrates the victory and you don't make a career of celebrating, which would leave you exposed to getting killed while you were doing something silly.

I'm sorry to those people who find the practice offensive, but I don't need your consent to celebrate. Whether it be by emote, teabagging, or some other means - that is quite literally all it is. And if that triggers you, perhaps your finding yourself to be in a place where you should not be.

BXR_Lonestar

SilverBride wrote: »

There is a thing in competitive sports... football to be specific... where touchdown victory dances are considered unsportsmanlike, and a team can even be penalized if one of their players does this. This is a similar situation, only imuch worse in my opinion, because it involves an explicit act.

The only reason someone does this is to taunt the fallen player. That alone could be considered harassment in my opinion, even if the other player didn't ask them not to do it. In fact, why does the fallen player have to ask not to be teabagged in the first place? Shouldn't the one teabagging be the one to ask their permission before they do it?

You are wrong again here. They did think celebrating went too far when players were bringing props on the field. So they came down on post-TD celebrations which sucked the fun out of the game. When the fans reacted negatively to the rule changes, it only took a couple of years to reverse their stance. Now there is some common sense with regards to celebrations: You can celebrate individually or as a team, you can use the ball as a prop, but you cannot bring props onto the football field to use in your celebration.

IMO, that is all that needs to be done here. Some common freaking sense. Let people celebrate as they will. When it gets excessive and crosses the line between celebrating and harassment, then step in and take disciplinary action. And when people try to weaponize the rules by raising meritless claims, punish those who filed false claims. Just like in real life - if you call 911 Emergency Services and you waste their time, you can be punished. As it should be here. But it is going to take more than AI monitoring complaints to actually enforce these rules with an even hand.

SilverBride

I don't know when the focus went from stopping bad behaviors to telling people to just accept and deal with them, but this doesn't bode well for society.

SilverBride

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

You are wrong again here. They did think celebrating went too far when players were bringing props on the field. So they came down on post-TD celebrations which sucked the fun out of the game. When the fans reacted negatively to the rule changes, it only took a couple of years to reverse their stance. Now there is some common sense with regards to celebrations: You can celebrate individually or as a team, you can use the ball as a prop, but you cannot bring props onto the football field to use in your celebration.

They loosened their stance but some things are still not permitted.

• Taunting: Demonstrations that constitute taunting or unsportsmanlike conduct are penalized.
• Using props: Using the goalposts as a prop is penalized.
• Violent gestures: Lewd or violent gestures are penalized.

Taunting and lewd gestures both describe teabagging.

spartaxoxo

Not everyone agrees this is a bad behavior. Not everyone views it as explicit. Not everyone who does it has malicious intentions or is even paying any attention at all to their target.

Everyone has different lines that they draw. And that's perfectly okay. That's why ZOS requires context. Some people like it and some people don't. Both are valid. And the policy they have ensures that neither viewpoint is forced onto anyone.

Aggrovious

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't know when the focus went from stopping bad behaviors to telling people to just accept and deal with them, but this doesn't bode well for society.

Teabagging is just crouching up and down. If you get offended by that, don't play multiplayer games with PVP.

The issue is toxic whispers and mass reporting. Lets get that straight.

spartaxoxo

Aggrovious wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't know when the focus went from stopping bad behaviors to telling people to just accept and deal with them, but this doesn't bode well for society.

Teabagging is just crouching up and down. If you get offended by that, don't play multiplayer games with PVP.

The issue is toxic whispers and mass reporting. Lets get that straight.

I mean, with the OP, they don't need to teabag someone who doesn't want them to. Whoever they are discussing is obviously a known quantity. So, just don't teabag them. If they teabag you after being asked to stop, report them

SilverBride

Look up the definition of teabagging then copy and paste it here. I guarantee it will be snipped because of how explicit it is. If it's too explicit to be defined on the forum then it's too explicit to be done in game.

I'm not a proponent of banning players without giving them a chance to stop the bad behavior first, but it's obvious that many are not going to change, so maybe that's what it's going to take to stop this.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

Look up the definition of teabagging then copy and paste it here. I guarantee it will be snipped because of how explicit it is. If it's too explicit to be defined on the forum then it's too explicit to be done in game.

Sure, I can do that. Here's the definition in Oxford's English Dictionary.

2.c. transitive. In online gaming: to make one's character squat down repeatedly on the head of (an opponent's defeated character) to celebrate the victory and humiliate one's opponent.

And let's how Giant Bomb, a video game news website, explains how it's used. As surely a news publication that specializes in video games would know.

Giant Bomb

Similar to taunting, but nigh-universal due to crouching being a common mechanic, players may do this to humiliate and provoke the downed opponent (mind games), simply out of sport (fun) or to celebrate a hard-earned win in an encounter.

I won't link to either of these as they do both go into the namesake of the gesture. And the namesake is lewd, which is why some people prefer to call it "Tactical Crouching" or "Bad Manners". Nevertheless, the online gaming definition is treated separately because it is has its own separate meaning. And that meaning is "LOL you lost" for so many people that the dictionary has this as its own separate definition.

ajkb78

Elsonso wrote: »

Aggrovious wrote: »

Teabagging is never going away.

Of course not. It's not a thing that the game does, it is a thing that the players do. Players are never going to stop doing it, or whatever passes as the equivalent.

The "Play Tiny Violin" emote works quite well as a substitute if you don't want to teabag. (So I'm told ;-))

Aggrovious

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Aggrovious wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't know when the focus went from stopping bad behaviors to telling people to just accept and deal with them, but this doesn't bode well for society.

Teabagging is just crouching up and down. If you get offended by that, don't play multiplayer games with PVP.

The issue is toxic whispers and mass reporting. Lets get that straight.

I mean, with the OP, they don't need to teabag someone who doesn't want them to. Whoever they are discussing is obviously a known quantity. So, just don't teabag them. If they teabag you after being asked to stop, report them

That is the thing. It was dumb the day they activated this policy and its still dumb now. You don't ask someone to stop teabagging you, you just ignore it all together. You are begging to be made fun of by doing this.

Its like if you are in a room with a bunch of vets and then you giggle and say oh sorry I am ticklish. You just asked for a death wish even though you don't wish it.

spartaxoxo

Aggrovious wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Aggrovious wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't know when the focus went from stopping bad behaviors to telling people to just accept and deal with them, but this doesn't bode well for society.

Teabagging is just crouching up and down. If you get offended by that, don't play multiplayer games with PVP.

The issue is toxic whispers and mass reporting. Lets get that straight.

I mean, with the OP, they don't need to teabag someone who doesn't want them to. Whoever they are discussing is obviously a known quantity. So, just don't teabag them. If they teabag you after being asked to stop, report them

That is the thing. It was dumb the day they activated this policy and its still dumb now. You don't ask someone to stop teabagging you, you just ignore it all together. You are begging to be made fun of by doing this.

Its like if you are in a room with a bunch of vets and then you giggle and say oh sorry I am ticklish. You just asked for a death wish even though you don't wish it.

Nah. It takes two to play. Respect that someone has declined and leave them alone.

ajkb78

SilverBride wrote: »

Look up the definition of teabagging then copy and paste it here. I guarantee it will be snipped because of how explicit it is. If it's too explicit to be defined on the forum then it's too explicit to be done in game.

I'm not a proponent of banning players without giving them a chance to stop the bad behavior first, but it's obvious that many are not going to change, so maybe that's what it's going to take to stop this.

When did we collectively lose our grip on what's real and what's not? Real teabagging involves naked parts and (if without consent) inappropriate touching. However what we're talking about is making a (virtually clothed) sprite repeatedly crouch and stop crouching. It might be reminiscent of real teabagging, and as with anything you shouldn't use it to harass people if they ask you not to. (The same goes for the trumpeting emote, the sack of questionable meat vomit, and anything else.) But there's a massive difference between real teabagging, which is explicit and absolutely never something to be done to anyone without their consent, and in-game teabagging. If you can't tell that any more, perhaps you need to spend a bit more time in meatspace.

Aggrovious

SilverBride wrote: »

Look up the definition of teabagging then copy and paste it here. I guarantee it will be snipped because of how explicit it is. If it's too explicit to be defined on the forum then it's too explicit to be done in game.

I'm not a proponent of banning players without giving them a chance to stop the bad behavior first, but it's obvious that many are not going to change, so maybe that's what it's going to take to stop this.

We are talking about crouching up and down. You've got to be kidding me. Yes, there is sexual suggest in this, but also a rated M game.

The bad behavior is the toxic whispering and mass reporting. Obviously, teabagging is bad in this pvp game because ZOS said so, but that shouldn't be the case.

Aggrovious

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Aggrovious wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Aggrovious wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't know when the focus went from stopping bad behaviors to telling people to just accept and deal with them, but this doesn't bode well for society.

Teabagging is just crouching up and down. If you get offended by that, don't play multiplayer games with PVP.

The issue is toxic whispers and mass reporting. Lets get that straight.

I mean, with the OP, they don't need to teabag someone who doesn't want them to. Whoever they are discussing is obviously a known quantity. So, just don't teabag them. If they teabag you after being asked to stop, report them

That is the thing. It was dumb the day they activated this policy and its still dumb now. You don't ask someone to stop teabagging you, you just ignore it all together. You are begging to be made fun of by doing this.

Its like if you are in a room with a bunch of vets and then you giggle and say oh sorry I am ticklish. You just asked for a death wish even though you don't wish it.

Nah. It takes two to play. Respect that someone has declined and leave them alone.

Nah, you got to read what I said here:

Its like if you are in a room with a bunch of vets and then you giggle and say oh sorry I am ticklish. You just asked for a death wish even though you don't wish it.