PTS Update 44 - Feedback Thread for Classes & Abilities

Tommy_The_Gun

Quoted post has been removed.

I agree with you that there aren't many NBs that use cloak "permanently". If someone is doing that, then they are mostly PvE players who want to traverse PvP zone without being seen to avoid PvP entirely & I don't see how it is an issue. And if even something like this happen then it is more or less a combination of cloak & crouch.

I think that players are just comparing live cloak vs PTS "toggle" cloak. And it is not necessarily about "permanent" invisibility, but rather a duration that is "long enough" to do anything relevant. And from my experience on PTS, in order to stay in cloak for any duration that makes NB's Cloak "usable" in any realistic scenario, you will actually need to slot another skill (like Syphoning or equilibrium) and use it. That is what most people are mad about. That managing cloak will be way harder than what we have on live & will require additional bar space (and bar space is not made out of rubber). It is an opposite of the goal of this entire change.

I have also kinda confirmed my suspicions that "toggle" cloak will be highly unreliable, especially in lag. In PvE, I had all kinds of weird issues that are non-issue on live server. There were multiple situations when some enemies were just "ignoring" the fact that cloak is on, or just by "staring at me" cloak was turned off. Sometimes it worked, but sometimes it was just "I want to fight you" and poof ! On live you can just re-cast cloak, but on PTS, it is janky as heck.

Situations like this will be notorious in IC or Cyrodiil, when some random wolf or mudcrab will detect you & de-cloak you & whole enemy zerg will wipe you. Same stuff will be happening when capturing a resource (PvP "Guards NPCs) & in an event when you are alone & 5 players appear, it will be close to impossible to get away - as again - toggle cloak is very janky. Most PvP NBs will prolly switch to ranged or bombing, as melee will be too risky as cloak will be 50/50 chance if it works or not.

It just seems like everything that interacts with cloak & invisibility was never made to interact with a "toggle-able" skill & I suspect that cloak itself was also not coded to be a "toggle-able" skill. I would not be surprised if "under the hood" cloak was still a skill with a duration, but they just changed 3 seconds to 9999999999 seconds and added a line of code that changes the duration to 0.000001 second when you cast it again - giving the impression of a "toggle". I mean PTS cloak kinda behaves like that.

Anyway, I would like to add that I find it odd that no one mentions how ZOS kinda (accidentally ?) destroyed Shadow Barrier Passive. NB cant use their spammable to proc it as it was moved to assasination and now cloak with a toggle, only enables this passive when it is toggled on. If you turn it off, it is not procing it. So vast majority of NB builds lost a way to naturally & fluidly proc this passive.

Now the reason I say it is "accidental" is that other NB's passive - Dark Veil on PTS, literally still has same description as Live server:

Increases the duration of your non-invisibility based Shadow abilities by 2 seconds.

^ The issue is that cloak no longer has duration.... So I would not be surprised is Shadow Barrier "indirect nerf" was an oversight.

I think that perhaps Shadow Barrier should also proc when Cloak is toggled off & count that as "a cast" since it counts activating cloak and it also costs nothing.

fred4

Quoted post has been removed.

You seem to be another NB, like me. Still, I have to concur with the opposition that you're wrong on this point. I've built my life around perma-cloaking for 9 years. I've been a magblade when it was an underdog and I still play it now that it's decent. My build remains off meta. I play it because I enjoy the playstyle, not to be at the competitive edge. There are many reasons why you might do this, from being a beginner, to avoiding aggro in IC and around NPC guards, to the sheer joy of being fast in cloak and going where you want, unseen, unhindered, fast, in a straight line, without NPC nor player aggro.

Another side effect of perma-cloaking, which you only discover when you do it all the time, is how gank-proof that makes you. I'm almost as fast as a mount in cloak. Thus I don't ride. I don't get shot off a horse with a ranged Tarnished / Winterborn / whatever gank. Cloaking when you might get detected only works if you see the enemy. For a measure of gank protection you, then, need other solutions, such as health >= 30K and less light armor. I frequently run 25K health or lower, because I can. What perma-cloaking buys me is a nice, sustainy playstyle that comes along with that. I don't sacrifice my health for damage, but for sustain, because that plays nicely.

Quoted post has been removed.

Well, so you're saying perma-cloaking is a pointless cheese tactic? If you only seek combat in open world, like you do in a Deathmatch BG, then I can see how you would call it that. To me, it is not. To me it is flexible. It allows me to avoid PvP and NPC trash equally when I want to boss farm in IC. It allows me to engage on my terms. Have a duel or an occasional 1vX, but zerg at other times, burn siege, gank siegers, and so on.

Maybe it's this last point that other players take the most issue with. That there is a class that is so much in control of their destiny, if played well. I say that dying as a nightblade is always your fault. With enough experience and situational awareness, Cloak should allow you to get away. That said, you are typically the squishiest player on the battlefield. Your main defense is reading the situation and it is precisely to get away with Cloak. Otherwise you're the party that is dead every single time.

Some players seem to genuinely hate that last part with a passion, possibly regardless of whether that NB is also a threat. They consider invisibility OP and against the spirit of RPGs in general, despite ESO having a 10-year history of integrating invisibility and invisibility counters into the game. Ironically ZOS' current proposal will make nightblades even stealthier, since you won't hear them cloak every 3 seconds anymore. I've dodge rolled melee gankers, when I heard them cloak, but never mind that.

What bothers me the most are the unclear goals and motivations of both ZOS and players. Everyone leads with "a Cloak change is clearly necessary" and proceeds from there. No, it's not. One player has conceded that they are not concerned with my playstyle. They also conceded that a ramping cost would not nerf bow ganking nor brawlerblades much, if at all. Arguably ZOS' change won't do that either. In fact, I think it's a buff to bow ganking. In terms of actual combat balance, I remain unclear and annoyed as to why a Cloak change is on the table at all.

xylena_lazarow

warm_blanket wrote: »

The delay to tarnished is a start but not quite enough.

Should've gotten the "against monsters" treatment that Azureblight got.

Sometimes the sledgehammer is in fact the right tool.

universal_wrath

This comment is for sorcerer class exclusivly.

Sorcerer shield healing nerf, why? The whole point of this healing part from the begining is that sorcerer (especialy non pet) were lacking healing power since pet sorc would most likely use twlight. If you think the healing scale too far, you can simply put cap and solve the issue of "too much healing". Another solution is to give sorcerer an actual healing skill that us not a pet or cast time.

Also, negate? Both morphs and base skill are hardly ever used except for very very specific situations in PvP.

Another useless sorcerer skill is power surge, now dragonknights have there own better version of power surge, why this skill is still the same useless morph?

Another skill that is in a weird spot is mages fury, the only excute skill in the game that does not have excution modifier, instead given flat number making it much weaker than excute skills. Even worse is one morph thst us supposed to be be the "extra damage morph" is only dealing more dmg to surrounding enemies while other morph return resources, needless to say the latter morph is much better in both PvE and PvP. This skill sould be looked at and addressed according to what it is supposed to do.

Last skill is escape bolt, why is this skill still not functions like its better counterpart mist form where you choost a target location instead of being lock on the full 15m distance? Furthermore, why streak still does not have a targeting option as well as the free aim one? It would be a quality imporvment that will let sorcerer use its offensive cc streak as intended straight into the targets face or back instead of going going though to other side only to run back to target again in which they already broken free of cc. This location targeting/enemy targeting will make escape bolt a better skill easily used in conjuction with armor sets/skills in the game.

universal_wrath

I'm still waiting and hoping for MoL sets to be buffed/reworked especialy twlight remedy(my favorite healing set) and moondancer, alkosh excluded. It is honestly very sad to see sets that were once the best in game to be in this state where they are almost never used. Here is options how to impove these sets

For twlight, make the wearer able to activate the buff, this will give the set an offensive option. Another idea is whenever an ally activates a synrgy, you also get the buff with 10-15 secs cooldown on healing so you don't have infinte healing from you allies especialy in PvP.

As for moondancer, one option is to make the set work on you max offensive resources in which above 50% magicka/stamina whichever higher you get weapon/spell dmage, while below 50% you get recovery with same 20 secs for both. Another option is to be able to have 2 buffs at same time in which you get one buff on first synrgy with 20 secs duration but 10 secs cooldown, next time you use synrgy you will get the other buff with same duration and cooldown; This option will allow the player to have 10 secs of each buff individual and 10 secs of both buffs same time of used perfect with atleast 2 synrgies to use.

ZOS_GregoryV

Greetings all,

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Skulptro

did someone say JABS?! Make jabs great again!

notyuu

Skulptro wrote: »

did someone say JABS?! Make jabs great again!

Which would be so easy to do with one ity bitty change of removing burning lights internal 0.5 second cooldown

mmtaniac

JAB JAB JAB through forum for buffs.

Deimus

@ZOS_Kevin could you pass along the player feedback of making the effects of Ghostly Embrace's circles cumulative for example:

1st Circle: DoT
2nd Circle: DoT+Chilled
3rd Cirlce: DoT+Chilled+Corpse

Comparison of the value and damage of this skill, Burning Talons, and Acid Spray seem similar on paper but in reality the damage you will do with Ghostly Embrace will almost always be much less than the other two since you will rarely hit anything with all 3 circles.

As it is now Burning Talons will always hit everything within 6 meters of the caster dealing its full damage, DoT, cc, and synergy if you have another player. Acid Spray has a 20 meter range and will deal its full damage and DoT to anything within that 20 meter range.

Ghostly Embrace has an 18 meter range split into 3. So just 6 meters, the 7-12m section is the only one to deal DoT damage. Each circle does half of the damage Burning Talons and Acid Spray does so to deal equivalent damage you have to hit the target with 2 circles which is difficult, and Burning Talons is still clearly the better skill for its ease of use, having the immobilize cc, and synergy attached to it. The only time Ghostly Embrace might be considered better is if you hit the target with all 3 sections which will not happen often. Most uses of this skill will result in half the damage and one of the 3 new effects for the same Magicka cost.

Making Ghostly Embrace cumulative with all 3 sections applying the DoT will make it more consistent, rewarding for landing the further patches, and comparable in value to the other 2 skills listed in the patch notes.

MincMincMinc

universal_wrath wrote: »

This comment is for sorcerer class exclusivly.

Sorcerer shield healing nerf, why? The whole point of this healing part from the begining is that sorcerer (especialy non pet) were lacking healing power since pet sorc would most likely use twlight. If you think the healing scale too far, you can simply put cap and solve the issue of "too much healing". Another solution is to give sorcerer an actual healing skill that us not a pet or cast time.

Also, negate? Both morphs and base skill are hardly ever used except for very very specific situations in PvP.

Another useless sorcerer skill is power surge, now dragonknights have there own better version of power surge, why this skill is still the same useless morph?

Another skill that is in a weird spot is mages fury, the only excute skill in the game that does not have excution modifier, instead given flat number making it much weaker than excute skills. Even worse is one morph thst us supposed to be be the "extra damage morph" is only dealing more dmg to surrounding enemies while other morph return resources, needless to say the latter morph is much better in both PvE and PvP. This skill sould be looked at and addressed according to what it is supposed to do.

Last skill is escape bolt, why is this skill still not functions like its better counterpart mist form where you choost a target location instead of being lock on the full 15m distance? Furthermore, why streak still does not have a targeting option as well as the free aim one? It would be a quality imporvment that will let sorcerer use its offensive cc streak as intended straight into the targets face or back instead of going going though to other side only to run back to target again in which they already broken free of cc. This location targeting/enemy targeting will make escape bolt a better skill easily used in conjuction with armor sets/skills in the game.

Anyone who takes 5 mins and throws together builds to compare a sorc with power surge vs a warden with polar wind could see the vast difference in class heals. Even if you compare crit surge to polar wind it is not even worth slotting by comparison. The main issue with both morphs of surge is that they require investment into crit, then require a crit to occur, which requires ticks per second, which then has a cooldown baked on to it. Only to just be a single target heal that is sub par after HEAVY amounts of build investment. Compare that to polar wind, where it scales off the easiest and most prevalent stat in the game. Acts as a burst, hot, and heals allies while also giving you major mending at low hp.

I would like to see both morphs have their cooldown removed since you already have the crit chance based cooldown.(opens up incentive to not just stack pen and wd on builds.) Then make power surge the large group 12p morph triggering off outgoing heal crits and crit surge the small group 4p morph that triggers off your outgoing damage.

This would at least help give sorcs a place in group combat. Right now they can only contribute damage, where other classes contribute the same damage + heals.

DrSlaughtr

fred4 wrote: »

Quoted post has been removed.

You seem to be another NB, like me. Still, I have to concur with the opposition that you're wrong on this point. I've built my life around perma-cloaking for 9 years. I've been a magblade when it was an underdog and I still play it now that it's decent. My build remains off meta. I play it because I enjoy the playstyle, not to be at the competitive edge. There are many reasons why you might do this, from being a beginner, to avoiding aggro in IC and around NPC guards, to the sheer joy of being fast in cloak and going where you want, unseen, unhindered, fast, in a straight line, without NPC nor player aggro.

Another side effect of perma-cloaking, which you only discover when you do it all the time, is how gank-proof that makes you. I'm almost as fast as a mount in cloak. Thus I don't ride. I don't get shot off a horse with a ranged Tarnished / Winterborn / whatever gank. Cloaking when you might get detected only works if you see the enemy. For a measure of gank protection you, then, need other solutions, such as health >= 30K and less light armor. I frequently run 25K health or lower, because I can. What perma-cloaking buys me is a nice, sustainy playstyle that comes along with that. I don't sacrifice my health for damage, but for sustain, because that plays nicely.

Quoted post has been removed.

Well, so you're saying perma-cloaking is a pointless cheese tactic? If you only seek combat in open world, like you do in a Deathmatch BG, then I can see how you would call it that. To me, it is not. To me it is flexible. It allows me to avoid PvP and NPC trash equally when I want to boss farm in IC. It allows me to engage on my terms. Have a duel or an occasional 1vX, but zerg at other times, burn siege, gank siegers, and so on.

Maybe it's this last point that other players take the most issue with. That there is a class that is so much in control of their destiny, if played well. I say that dying as a nightblade is always your fault. With enough experience and situational awareness, Cloak should allow you to get away. That said, you are typically the squishiest player on the battlefield. Your main defense is reading the situation and it is precisely to get away with Cloak. Otherwise you're the party that is dead every single time.

Some players seem to genuinely hate that last part with a passion, possibly regardless of whether that NB is also a threat. They consider invisibility OP and against the spirit of RPGs in general, despite ESO having a 10-year history of integrating invisibility and invisibility counters into the game. Ironically ZOS' current proposal will make nightblades even stealthier, since you won't hear them cloak every 3 seconds anymore. I've dodge rolled melee gankers, when I heard them cloak, but never mind that.

What bothers me the most are the unclear goals and motivations of both ZOS and players. Everyone leads with "a Cloak change is clearly necessary" and proceeds from there. No, it's not. One player has conceded that they are not concerned with my playstyle. They also conceded that a ramping cost would not nerf bow ganking nor brawlerblades much, if at all. Arguably ZOS' change won't do that either. In fact, I think it's a buff to bow ganking. In terms of actual combat balance, I remain unclear and annoyed as to why a Cloak change is on the table at all.

If you're building enough recovery, along with siphoning+rally spamming, in order to completely negative the cost of hitting Shadowy Disguise every two-ish seconds, then you are the exception, not the rule, and you are giving up a lot more than some health to do so.

That that is 100% okay! The problem is with other players who think 1) what you do is typical player behavior, and 2) there are no drawbacks to going that hard into constantly hitting those skills.

Without knowing what you are doing to attain that level of sustain, I can only imagine your DPS output is less than most (which is also okay. If you are clever and good at targeting, you know who to hit and who not to.)

I think shields are a little overtuned on live because of scribing. I do think they should be adjusted a little. My reasons for it have nothing to do with the players who go all in on shields and run around spamming 100% shields while light attacking air. They are the very small minority, and the game should never be balanced against them.

So if someone decides to wear every sustain set possible and blast recovery skills just so they can stay invisible all the time, I say more power to them, but that isn't typical behavior.

MashmalloMan

MincMincMinc wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

This comment is for sorcerer class exclusivly.

Sorcerer shield healing nerf, why? The whole point of this healing part from the begining is that sorcerer (especialy non pet) were lacking healing power since pet sorc would most likely use twlight. If you think the healing scale too far, you can simply put cap and solve the issue of "too much healing". Another solution is to give sorcerer an actual healing skill that us not a pet or cast time.

Also, negate? Both morphs and base skill are hardly ever used except for very very specific situations in PvP.

Another useless sorcerer skill is power surge, now dragonknights have there own better version of power surge, why this skill is still the same useless morph?

Another skill that is in a weird spot is mages fury, the only excute skill in the game that does not have excution modifier, instead given flat number making it much weaker than excute skills. Even worse is one morph thst us supposed to be be the "extra damage morph" is only dealing more dmg to surrounding enemies while other morph return resources, needless to say the latter morph is much better in both PvE and PvP. This skill sould be looked at and addressed according to what it is supposed to do.

Last skill is escape bolt, why is this skill still not functions like its better counterpart mist form where you choost a target location instead of being lock on the full 15m distance? Furthermore, why streak still does not have a targeting option as well as the free aim one? It would be a quality imporvment that will let sorcerer use its offensive cc streak as intended straight into the targets face or back instead of going going though to other side only to run back to target again in which they already broken free of cc. This location targeting/enemy targeting will make escape bolt a better skill easily used in conjuction with armor sets/skills in the game.

Anyone who takes 5 mins and throws together builds to compare a sorc with power surge vs a warden with polar wind could see the vast difference in class heals. Even if you compare crit surge to polar wind it is not even worth slotting by comparison. The main issue with both morphs of surge is that they require investment into crit, then require a crit to occur, which requires ticks per second, which then has a cooldown baked on to it. Only to just be a single target heal that is sub par after HEAVY amounts of build investment. Compare that to polar wind, where it scales off the easiest and most prevalent stat in the game. Acts as a burst, hot, and heals allies while also giving you major mending at low hp.

I would like to see both morphs have their cooldown removed since you already have the crit chance based cooldown.(opens up incentive to not just stack pen and wd on builds.) Then make power surge the large group 12p morph triggering off outgoing heal crits and crit surge the small group 4p morph that triggers off your outgoing damage.

This would at least help give sorcs a place in group combat. Right now they can only contribute damage, where other classes contribute the same damage + heals.

Original Critical Surge scaled based on direct critical damage done and had a 0.25s cooldown, felt similar to how Briarheart works. I highly doubt ZOS would go back to that design because they changed it to 1s based on any critical hit for a flat value.

I think the current design is fine if a few tweaks were made, I'm not saying you're wrong, but overall they're already very strong abilities in terms of a HOT. Comparing Polar Wind to Power Surge is a very odd comparison because it's a health scaling heal that effects an additional target vs effecting 6 targets with no scaling, they're not really the same category and Polar Wind has been overdue for a nerf for years.

For starters, Sorc needs a class sourced version of Major Prophecy + Savagery to pair with the Minor version. Bound Armaments makes the most sense to me, although Curse.. or even Streak for slotting on either bar could work too. As a comparison, Shadowy Disguise got Prophecy/Savagery and monster damage done added since it's largely a pvp utility skill you won't find useful in pve. You can apply the same logic for Streak and BOL.

Change Critical Surge to scale based on highest offensive stats. Hopefully the dynamic would become tank/healer can still use it for the same or slightly lesser value as live's 3300, but damage dealers would see a decent increase which modernizes it for the extra health and damage we take now vs the last time it was changed before CP 2.0. Bump it up to 60s instead of 33s. ZOS previously mentioned intentions of reducing buff management, only to change like 3 abilities.. Lotus Flower, Chanelled Focus, and Molten Armaments. What happened to everything else? I'm fine with the 1s GCD.

For Power Surge leave the heal as a flat value because healers don't typically have the opportunity to stack high offensive stats so it would probably just end up in a nerf (although I'm not married to this idea), can still scale from crit chance, crit healing, and healing done, change the tick frequency from 3s to 2s to better align with HOTs that it requires to proc from, then change the duration from 33s to 30s... or 20s if it became a really strong aoe hot.

All that said, you want to get real boring with it, you could remove the Crit requirement all together like Siphoning Attacks, but I think that would completely destroy the identity of the skill and it would receive heavy nerfs to its tooltip to justify the guaranteed ticks. I'm completely against making Crit Surge effect 4 people because that would NUKE it. The fact that it only effects yourself is why it has a 3.3k tooltip, which although I think should improve, could not work as a 4 person 60s duration HOT.

MincMincMinc

MashmalloMan wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

This comment is for sorcerer class exclusivly.

Sorcerer shield healing nerf, why? The whole point of this healing part from the begining is that sorcerer (especialy non pet) were lacking healing power since pet sorc would most likely use twlight. If you think the healing scale too far, you can simply put cap and solve the issue of "too much healing". Another solution is to give sorcerer an actual healing skill that us not a pet or cast time.

Also, negate? Both morphs and base skill are hardly ever used except for very very specific situations in PvP.

Another useless sorcerer skill is power surge, now dragonknights have there own better version of power surge, why this skill is still the same useless morph?

Another skill that is in a weird spot is mages fury, the only excute skill in the game that does not have excution modifier, instead given flat number making it much weaker than excute skills. Even worse is one morph thst us supposed to be be the "extra damage morph" is only dealing more dmg to surrounding enemies while other morph return resources, needless to say the latter morph is much better in both PvE and PvP. This skill sould be looked at and addressed according to what it is supposed to do.

Last skill is escape bolt, why is this skill still not functions like its better counterpart mist form where you choost a target location instead of being lock on the full 15m distance? Furthermore, why streak still does not have a targeting option as well as the free aim one? It would be a quality imporvment that will let sorcerer use its offensive cc streak as intended straight into the targets face or back instead of going going though to other side only to run back to target again in which they already broken free of cc. This location targeting/enemy targeting will make escape bolt a better skill easily used in conjuction with armor sets/skills in the game.

Anyone who takes 5 mins and throws together builds to compare a sorc with power surge vs a warden with polar wind could see the vast difference in class heals. Even if you compare crit surge to polar wind it is not even worth slotting by comparison. The main issue with both morphs of surge is that they require investment into crit, then require a crit to occur, which requires ticks per second, which then has a cooldown baked on to it. Only to just be a single target heal that is sub par after HEAVY amounts of build investment. Compare that to polar wind, where it scales off the easiest and most prevalent stat in the game. Acts as a burst, hot, and heals allies while also giving you major mending at low hp.

I would like to see both morphs have their cooldown removed since you already have the crit chance based cooldown.(opens up incentive to not just stack pen and wd on builds.) Then make power surge the large group 12p morph triggering off outgoing heal crits and crit surge the small group 4p morph that triggers off your outgoing damage.

This would at least help give sorcs a place in group combat. Right now they can only contribute damage, where other classes contribute the same damage + heals.

Original Critical Surge scaled based on direct critical damage done and had a 0.25s cooldown, felt similar to how Briarheart works. I highly doubt ZOS would go back to that design because they changed it to 1s based on any critical hit for a flat value.

I think the current design is fine if a few tweaks were made, I'm not saying you're wrong, but overall they're already very strong abilities in terms of a HOT. Comparing Polar Wind to Power Surge is a very odd comparison because it's a health scaling heal that effects an additional target vs effecting 6 targets with no scaling, they're not really the same category and Polar Wind has been overdue for a nerf for years.

For starters, Sorc needs a class sourced version of Major Prophecy + Savagery to pair with the Minor version. Bound Armaments makes the most sense to me, although Curse.. or even Streak for slotting on either bar could work too. As a comparison, Shadowy Disguise got Prophecy/Savagery and monster damage done added since it's largely a pvp utility skill you won't find useful in pve. You can apply the same logic for Streak and BOL.

Change Critical Surge to scale based on highest offensive stats. Hopefully the dynamic would become tank/healer can still use it for the same or slightly lesser value as live's 3300, but damage dealers would see a decent increase which modernizes it for the extra health and damage we take now vs the last time it was changed before CP 2.0. Bump it up to 60s instead of 33s. ZOS previously mentioned intentions of reducing buff management, only to change like 3 abilities.. Lotus Flower, Chanelled Focus, and Molten Armaments. What happened to everything else? I'm fine with the 1s GCD.

For Power Surge leave the heal as a flat value because healers don't typically have the opportunity to stack high offensive stats so it would probably just end up in a nerf (although I'm not married to this idea), can still scale from crit chance, crit healing, and healing done, change the tick frequency from 3s to 2s to better align with HOTs that it requires to proc from, then change the duration from 33s to 30s... or 20s if it became a really strong aoe hot.

All that said, you want to get real boring with it, you could remove the Crit requirement all together like Siphoning Attacks, but I think that would completely destroy the identity of the skill and it would receive heavy nerfs to its tooltip to justify the guaranteed ticks. I'm completely against making Crit Surge effect 4 people because that would NUKE it. The fact that it only effects yourself is why it has a 3.3k tooltip, which although I think should improve, could not work as a 4 person 60s duration HOT.

I compare them as they are the main heal options for the classes assuming hardened will be cut down based on who I was originally responding to. I also would expect hardened to be gutted at some point in the future.

Scaling wise, I would rather heals scale with max stats to incentivize other builds while bringing tension back to the Max Mag and Stam. I really dont like the concept of flat non scaling skills with a generic cooldown limitation on top of a chance event. Obviously I would prefer the old version of the skill because the heals were situational and skill based. It was sorc's anti group defense and 1vX potential. >>> give me a reason to not just stack pen, wd, and max hp

Its silly at this point that prophecy isn't on sorc yet considering crit surge needs it lol. Boggles my mind that NB has prophecy and minor expedition now..... What ever happened to sorc being the speedy movement class? >>even warden beats out sorc speed with 6s major+immunity predator.

Sorc is one thing, but stamsorc is in such a terrible place when it comes to this. Its bad enough I only play it solo and just swap to stamden for small group play because my self heals more than double while also healing allies for the same amount. Streak is the only reason I go back to sorc for solo fun/nostalgia. Even Static and I have been battling for months to get a decent feeling build going.

fred4

x

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Quoted post has been removed.

You seem to be another NB, like me. Still, I have to concur with the opposition that you're wrong on this point. I've built my life around perma-cloaking for 9 years. I've been a magblade when it was an underdog and I still play it now that it's decent. My build remains off meta. I play it because I enjoy the playstyle, not to be at the competitive edge. There are many reasons why you might do this, from being a beginner, to avoiding aggro in IC and around NPC guards, to the sheer joy of being fast in cloak and going where you want, unseen, unhindered, fast, in a straight line, without NPC nor player aggro.

Another side effect of perma-cloaking, which you only discover when you do it all the time, is how gank-proof that makes you. I'm almost as fast as a mount in cloak. Thus I don't ride. I don't get shot off a horse with a ranged Tarnished / Winterborn / whatever gank. Cloaking when you might get detected only works if you see the enemy. For a measure of gank protection you, then, need other solutions, such as health >= 30K and less light armor. I frequently run 25K health or lower, because I can. What perma-cloaking buys me is a nice, sustainy playstyle that comes along with that. I don't sacrifice my health for damage, but for sustain, because that plays nicely.

Quoted post has been removed.

Well, so you're saying perma-cloaking is a pointless cheese tactic? If you only seek combat in open world, like you do in a Deathmatch BG, then I can see how you would call it that. To me, it is not. To me it is flexible. It allows me to avoid PvP and NPC trash equally when I want to boss farm in IC. It allows me to engage on my terms. Have a duel or an occasional 1vX, but zerg at other times, burn siege, gank siegers, and so on.

Maybe it's this last point that other players take the most issue with. That there is a class that is so much in control of their destiny, if played well. I say that dying as a nightblade is always your fault. With enough experience and situational awareness, Cloak should allow you to get away. That said, you are typically the squishiest player on the battlefield. Your main defense is reading the situation and it is precisely to get away with Cloak. Otherwise you're the party that is dead every single time.

Some players seem to genuinely hate that last part with a passion, possibly regardless of whether that NB is also a threat. They consider invisibility OP and against the spirit of RPGs in general, despite ESO having a 10-year history of integrating invisibility and invisibility counters into the game. Ironically ZOS' current proposal will make nightblades even stealthier, since you won't hear them cloak every 3 seconds anymore. I've dodge rolled melee gankers, when I heard them cloak, but never mind that.

What bothers me the most are the unclear goals and motivations of both ZOS and players. Everyone leads with "a Cloak change is clearly necessary" and proceeds from there. No, it's not. One player has conceded that they are not concerned with my playstyle. They also conceded that a ramping cost would not nerf bow ganking nor brawlerblades much, if at all. Arguably ZOS' change won't do that either. In fact, I think it's a buff to bow ganking. In terms of actual combat balance, I remain unclear and annoyed as to why a Cloak change is on the table at all.

If you're building enough recovery, along with siphoning+rally spamming, in order to completely negative the cost of hitting Shadowy Disguise every two-ish seconds, then you are the exception, not the rule, and you are giving up a lot more than some health to do so.

That that is 100% okay! The problem is with other players who think 1) what you do is typical player behavior, and 2) there are no drawbacks to going that hard into constantly hitting those skills.

Without knowing what you are doing to attain that level of sustain, I can only imagine your DPS output is less than most (which is also okay. If you are clever and good at targeting, you know who to hit and who not to.)

I think shields are a little overtuned on live because of scribing. I do think they should be adjusted a little. My reasons for it have nothing to do with the players who go all in on shields and run around spamming 100% shields while light attacking air. They are the very small minority, and the game should never be balanced against them.

So if someone decides to wear every sustain set possible and blast recovery skills just so they can stay invisible all the time, I say more power to them, but that isn't typical behavior.

I've been trying to explain this to people. I'm basically married to the Atro mundus, 1x cost reduction enchant, Breton, no vampire, 5x light armor and very high sustain food (Hissmir Fisheye Rye) on live. This is enough for full cloak uptime and, with Siphoning Attacks, near full RAT uptime while cloaked and out of combat. I'm not actually sacrificing an armor set, but the other sacrifices add up.

I want to have a realistic discussion about this. Thus I'll clarify that you do not actually need to wear every sustain set possible, at least not on live. In fact, wearing Wretched Vitality is counter-productive for a perma-cloaking build, because you transition to out-of-combat status quite often and Wretched doesn't work for that nor, as it turns out, do most other sustain sets. This is due to quirks of the game engine I can explain in detail, if needed.

At the end of the day, I play a decent build. It is not useless for PvP combat. However, it's not a build that will gank you outright and it's squishy. Some very meta things are off the table, namely vampire, Wretched Vitality and medium armor, otherwise you compromise your cloak sustain or you have to make compromises elsewhere to claw it back.

I'm saying this, because I think people voting for a cloak nerf have a point. This playstyle is viable and you will encounter people who are very good at getting away from you. I want you all to understand, however, that this is neither a brawler playstyle, nor an outright ganker playstyle. The power isn't there and neither is the tankiness. If I was a bow ganker, especially, I don't think I would need this amount of sustain, because Focused Aim allows you to attack from so far away. I play in mixed range with a destro staff and Incap. I go in close, but I'm not tanky enough to stick around for long. That's why I rely on cloak and speed. I could play differently, of course, but it's a fun playstyle.

I would argue that the kind of build I play is the one most affected by Cloak sustain nerfs. Even the current PTS change is a nerf, by the way. My question to everyone is whether you think that's justified or, even more simply, whether that is indeed the kind of nightblade you'd like to see nerfed.

DrSlaughtr

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

This comment is for sorcerer class exclusivly.

Sorcerer shield healing nerf, why? The whole point of this healing part from the begining is that sorcerer (especialy non pet) were lacking healing power since pet sorc would most likely use twlight. If you think the healing scale too far, you can simply put cap and solve the issue of "too much healing". Another solution is to give sorcerer an actual healing skill that us not a pet or cast time.

Also, negate? Both morphs and base skill are hardly ever used except for very very specific situations in PvP.

Another useless sorcerer skill is power surge, now dragonknights have there own better version of power surge, why this skill is still the same useless morph?

Another skill that is in a weird spot is mages fury, the only excute skill in the game that does not have excution modifier, instead given flat number making it much weaker than excute skills. Even worse is one morph thst us supposed to be be the "extra damage morph" is only dealing more dmg to surrounding enemies while other morph return resources, needless to say the latter morph is much better in both PvE and PvP. This skill sould be looked at and addressed according to what it is supposed to do.

Last skill is escape bolt, why is this skill still not functions like its better counterpart mist form where you choost a target location instead of being lock on the full 15m distance? Furthermore, why streak still does not have a targeting option as well as the free aim one? It would be a quality imporvment that will let sorcerer use its offensive cc streak as intended straight into the targets face or back instead of going going though to other side only to run back to target again in which they already broken free of cc. This location targeting/enemy targeting will make escape bolt a better skill easily used in conjuction with armor sets/skills in the game.

Anyone who takes 5 mins and throws together builds to compare a sorc with power surge vs a warden with polar wind could see the vast difference in class heals. Even if you compare crit surge to polar wind it is not even worth slotting by comparison. The main issue with both morphs of surge is that they require investment into crit, then require a crit to occur, which requires ticks per second, which then has a cooldown baked on to it. Only to just be a single target heal that is sub par after HEAVY amounts of build investment. Compare that to polar wind, where it scales off the easiest and most prevalent stat in the game. Acts as a burst, hot, and heals allies while also giving you major mending at low hp.

I would like to see both morphs have their cooldown removed since you already have the crit chance based cooldown.(opens up incentive to not just stack pen and wd on builds.) Then make power surge the large group 12p morph triggering off outgoing heal crits and crit surge the small group 4p morph that triggers off your outgoing damage.

This would at least help give sorcs a place in group combat. Right now they can only contribute damage, where other classes contribute the same damage + heals.

Original Critical Surge scaled based on direct critical damage done and had a 0.25s cooldown, felt similar to how Briarheart works. I highly doubt ZOS would go back to that design because they changed it to 1s based on any critical hit for a flat value.

I think the current design is fine if a few tweaks were made, I'm not saying you're wrong, but overall they're already very strong abilities in terms of a HOT. Comparing Polar Wind to Power Surge is a very odd comparison because it's a health scaling heal that effects an additional target vs effecting 6 targets with no scaling, they're not really the same category and Polar Wind has been overdue for a nerf for years.

For starters, Sorc needs a class sourced version of Major Prophecy + Savagery to pair with the Minor version. Bound Armaments makes the most sense to me, although Curse.. or even Streak for slotting on either bar could work too. As a comparison, Shadowy Disguise got Prophecy/Savagery and monster damage done added since it's largely a pvp utility skill you won't find useful in pve. You can apply the same logic for Streak and BOL.

Change Critical Surge to scale based on highest offensive stats. Hopefully the dynamic would become tank/healer can still use it for the same or slightly lesser value as live's 3300, but damage dealers would see a decent increase which modernizes it for the extra health and damage we take now vs the last time it was changed before CP 2.0. Bump it up to 60s instead of 33s. ZOS previously mentioned intentions of reducing buff management, only to change like 3 abilities.. Lotus Flower, Chanelled Focus, and Molten Armaments. What happened to everything else? I'm fine with the 1s GCD.

For Power Surge leave the heal as a flat value because healers don't typically have the opportunity to stack high offensive stats so it would probably just end up in a nerf (although I'm not married to this idea), can still scale from crit chance, crit healing, and healing done, change the tick frequency from 3s to 2s to better align with HOTs that it requires to proc from, then change the duration from 33s to 30s... or 20s if it became a really strong aoe hot.

All that said, you want to get real boring with it, you could remove the Crit requirement all together like Siphoning Attacks, but I think that would completely destroy the identity of the skill and it would receive heavy nerfs to its tooltip to justify the guaranteed ticks. I'm completely against making Crit Surge effect 4 people because that would NUKE it. The fact that it only effects yourself is why it has a 3.3k tooltip, which although I think should improve, could not work as a 4 person 60s duration HOT.

Boggles my mind that NB has prophecy and minor expedition now.....major+immunity predator

I posted a video comparing with and without minor expedition in a race. Two runs sync'd with a timer using the same character. I received them between two lights on a path in craglorn. It was a good amount of distance.

In the end, minor expedition was about 0.30 seconds faster. It's not very impactful. It's nice to have but if you take the skill off it's nearly visually unnoticeable.

universal_wrath

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

This comment is for sorcerer class exclusivly.

Sorcerer shield healing nerf, why? The whole point of this healing part from the begining is that sorcerer (especialy non pet) were lacking healing power since pet sorc would most likely use twlight. If you think the healing scale too far, you can simply put cap and solve the issue of "too much healing". Another solution is to give sorcerer an actual healing skill that us not a pet or cast time.

Also, negate? Both morphs and base skill are hardly ever used except for very very specific situations in PvP.

Another useless sorcerer skill is power surge, now dragonknights have there own better version of power surge, why this skill is still the same useless morph?

Another skill that is in a weird spot is mages fury, the only excute skill in the game that does not have excution modifier, instead given flat number making it much weaker than excute skills. Even worse is one morph thst us supposed to be be the "extra damage morph" is only dealing more dmg to surrounding enemies while other morph return resources, needless to say the latter morph is much better in both PvE and PvP. This skill sould be looked at and addressed according to what it is supposed to do.

Last skill is escape bolt, why is this skill still not functions like its better counterpart mist form where you choost a target location instead of being lock on the full 15m distance? Furthermore, why streak still does not have a targeting option as well as the free aim one? It would be a quality imporvment that will let sorcerer use its offensive cc streak as intended straight into the targets face or back instead of going going though to other side only to run back to target again in which they already broken free of cc. This location targeting/enemy targeting will make escape bolt a better skill easily used in conjuction with armor sets/skills in the game.

Anyone who takes 5 mins and throws together builds to compare a sorc with power surge vs a warden with polar wind could see the vast difference in class heals. Even if you compare crit surge to polar wind it is not even worth slotting by comparison. The main issue with both morphs of surge is that they require investment into crit, then require a crit to occur, which requires ticks per second, which then has a cooldown baked on to it. Only to just be a single target heal that is sub par after HEAVY amounts of build investment. Compare that to polar wind, where it scales off the easiest and most prevalent stat in the game. Acts as a burst, hot, and heals allies while also giving you major mending at low hp.

I would like to see both morphs have their cooldown removed since you already have the crit chance based cooldown.(opens up incentive to not just stack pen and wd on builds.) Then make power surge the large group 12p morph triggering off outgoing heal crits and crit surge the small group 4p morph that triggers off your outgoing damage.

This would at least help give sorcs a place in group combat. Right now they can only contribute damage, where other classes contribute the same damage + heals.

Original Critical Surge scaled based on direct critical damage done and had a 0.25s cooldown, felt similar to how Briarheart works. I highly doubt ZOS would go back to that design because they changed it to 1s based on any critical hit for a flat value.

I think the current design is fine if a few tweaks were made, I'm not saying you're wrong, but overall they're already very strong abilities in terms of a HOT. Comparing Polar Wind to Power Surge is a very odd comparison because it's a health scaling heal that effects an additional target vs effecting 6 targets with no scaling, they're not really the same category and Polar Wind has been overdue for a nerf for years.

For starters, Sorc needs a class sourced version of Major Prophecy + Savagery to pair with the Minor version. Bound Armaments makes the most sense to me, although Curse.. or even Streak for slotting on either bar could work too. As a comparison, Shadowy Disguise got Prophecy/Savagery and monster damage done added since it's largely a pvp utility skill you won't find useful in pve. You can apply the same logic for Streak and BOL.

Change Critical Surge to scale based on highest offensive stats. Hopefully the dynamic would become tank/healer can still use it for the same or slightly lesser value as live's 3300, but damage dealers would see a decent increase which modernizes it for the extra health and damage we take now vs the last time it was changed before CP 2.0. Bump it up to 60s instead of 33s. ZOS previously mentioned intentions of reducing buff management, only to change like 3 abilities.. Lotus Flower, Chanelled Focus, and Molten Armaments. What happened to everything else? I'm fine with the 1s GCD.

For Power Surge leave the heal as a flat value because healers don't typically have the opportunity to stack high offensive stats so it would probably just end up in a nerf (although I'm not married to this idea), can still scale from crit chance, crit healing, and healing done, change the tick frequency from 3s to 2s to better align with HOTs that it requires to proc from, then change the duration from 33s to 30s... or 20s if it became a really strong aoe hot.

All that said, you want to get real boring with it, you could remove the Crit requirement all together like Siphoning Attacks, but I think that would completely destroy the identity of the skill and it would receive heavy nerfs to its tooltip to justify the guaranteed ticks. I'm completely against making Crit Surge effect 4 people because that would NUKE it. The fact that it only effects yourself is why it has a 3.3k tooltip, which although I think should improve, could not work as a 4 person 60s duration HOT.

I compare them as they are the main heal options for the classes assuming hardened will be cut down based on who I was originally responding to. I also would expect hardened to be gutted at some point in the future.

Scaling wise, I would rather heals scale with max stats to incentivize other builds while bringing tension back to the Max Mag and Stam. I really dont like the concept of flat non scaling skills with a generic cooldown limitation on top of a chance event. Obviously I would prefer the old version of the skill because the heals were situational and skill based. It was sorc's anti group defense and 1vX potential. >>> give me a reason to not just stack pen, wd, and max hp

Its silly at this point that prophecy isn't on sorc yet considering crit surge needs it lol. Boggles my mind that NB has prophecy and minor expedition now..... What ever happened to sorc being the speedy movement class? >>even warden beats out sorc speed with 6s major+immunity predator.

Sorc is one thing, but stamsorc is in such a terrible place when it comes to this. Its bad enough I only play it solo and just swap to stamden for small group play because my self heals more than double while also healing allies for the same amount. Streak is the only reason I go back to sorc for solo fun/nostalgia. Even Static and I have been battling for months to get a decent feeling build going.

I think the best skill to compare power surge with is the new cauterize because they have similar functions being 3 ssecs cooldown group heals over the caster, only problem is power surge heal need a tertiary activation condition which is critical heal where as cauterize heal acrivate with the activating the actual skill.

It should also be noted that cauterize scales scale based of your passives, stats and CP while power surge only scale you CP or passive. We know sorcerer have no healing passives so essentialy power surge only scale with CP leaving it way behind the old and new cauterize.

I should also highlight how the base skill and its morphs provide major sorcery when the class relies primarily on critical chance to heal. I think power surge should loss the cooldown part or be reduce to 12 secs to negotiate the activation conditions.

LinusMain

Please remove the taunt from Templar's Exploding Charge morph. It has a very good use case in Infinite Archive right now as an AoE interrupt. Giving it taunt makes it unusable when playing with a tank.

(Or make it conditional on wearing 5 heavy armor or something tank-related.)

MincMincMinc

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

This comment is for sorcerer class exclusivly.

Sorcerer shield healing nerf, why? The whole point of this healing part from the begining is that sorcerer (especialy non pet) were lacking healing power since pet sorc would most likely use twlight. If you think the healing scale too far, you can simply put cap and solve the issue of "too much healing". Another solution is to give sorcerer an actual healing skill that us not a pet or cast time.

Also, negate? Both morphs and base skill are hardly ever used except for very very specific situations in PvP.

Another useless sorcerer skill is power surge, now dragonknights have there own better version of power surge, why this skill is still the same useless morph?

Another skill that is in a weird spot is mages fury, the only excute skill in the game that does not have excution modifier, instead given flat number making it much weaker than excute skills. Even worse is one morph thst us supposed to be be the "extra damage morph" is only dealing more dmg to surrounding enemies while other morph return resources, needless to say the latter morph is much better in both PvE and PvP. This skill sould be looked at and addressed according to what it is supposed to do.

Last skill is escape bolt, why is this skill still not functions like its better counterpart mist form where you choost a target location instead of being lock on the full 15m distance? Furthermore, why streak still does not have a targeting option as well as the free aim one? It would be a quality imporvment that will let sorcerer use its offensive cc streak as intended straight into the targets face or back instead of going going though to other side only to run back to target again in which they already broken free of cc. This location targeting/enemy targeting will make escape bolt a better skill easily used in conjuction with armor sets/skills in the game.

Anyone who takes 5 mins and throws together builds to compare a sorc with power surge vs a warden with polar wind could see the vast difference in class heals. Even if you compare crit surge to polar wind it is not even worth slotting by comparison. The main issue with both morphs of surge is that they require investment into crit, then require a crit to occur, which requires ticks per second, which then has a cooldown baked on to it. Only to just be a single target heal that is sub par after HEAVY amounts of build investment. Compare that to polar wind, where it scales off the easiest and most prevalent stat in the game. Acts as a burst, hot, and heals allies while also giving you major mending at low hp.

I would like to see both morphs have their cooldown removed since you already have the crit chance based cooldown.(opens up incentive to not just stack pen and wd on builds.) Then make power surge the large group 12p morph triggering off outgoing heal crits and crit surge the small group 4p morph that triggers off your outgoing damage.

This would at least help give sorcs a place in group combat. Right now they can only contribute damage, where other classes contribute the same damage + heals.

Original Critical Surge scaled based on direct critical damage done and had a 0.25s cooldown, felt similar to how Briarheart works. I highly doubt ZOS would go back to that design because they changed it to 1s based on any critical hit for a flat value.

I think the current design is fine if a few tweaks were made, I'm not saying you're wrong, but overall they're already very strong abilities in terms of a HOT. Comparing Polar Wind to Power Surge is a very odd comparison because it's a health scaling heal that effects an additional target vs effecting 6 targets with no scaling, they're not really the same category and Polar Wind has been overdue for a nerf for years.

For starters, Sorc needs a class sourced version of Major Prophecy + Savagery to pair with the Minor version. Bound Armaments makes the most sense to me, although Curse.. or even Streak for slotting on either bar could work too. As a comparison, Shadowy Disguise got Prophecy/Savagery and monster damage done added since it's largely a pvp utility skill you won't find useful in pve. You can apply the same logic for Streak and BOL.

Change Critical Surge to scale based on highest offensive stats. Hopefully the dynamic would become tank/healer can still use it for the same or slightly lesser value as live's 3300, but damage dealers would see a decent increase which modernizes it for the extra health and damage we take now vs the last time it was changed before CP 2.0. Bump it up to 60s instead of 33s. ZOS previously mentioned intentions of reducing buff management, only to change like 3 abilities.. Lotus Flower, Chanelled Focus, and Molten Armaments. What happened to everything else? I'm fine with the 1s GCD.

For Power Surge leave the heal as a flat value because healers don't typically have the opportunity to stack high offensive stats so it would probably just end up in a nerf (although I'm not married to this idea), can still scale from crit chance, crit healing, and healing done, change the tick frequency from 3s to 2s to better align with HOTs that it requires to proc from, then change the duration from 33s to 30s... or 20s if it became a really strong aoe hot.

All that said, you want to get real boring with it, you could remove the Crit requirement all together like Siphoning Attacks, but I think that would completely destroy the identity of the skill and it would receive heavy nerfs to its tooltip to justify the guaranteed ticks. I'm completely against making Crit Surge effect 4 people because that would NUKE it. The fact that it only effects yourself is why it has a 3.3k tooltip, which although I think should improve, could not work as a 4 person 60s duration HOT.

Boggles my mind that NB has prophecy and minor expedition now.....major+immunity predator

I posted a video comparing with and without minor expedition in a race. Two runs sync'd with a timer using the same character. I received them between two lights on a path in craglorn. It was a good amount of distance.

In the end, minor expedition was about 0.30 seconds faster. It's not very impactful. It's nice to have but if you take the skill off it's nearly visually unnoticeable.

Well to keep it short minor expedition used to be a big deal since there weren't as many speed buffs. Now everyone is simply too fast and the counterplay aspect of snare and root immunity is an absolute mess.

Old had 10%(minor)+30%(pots) === 40%
Current has 15%(minor)+30%(rats)+10/11%(celerity)+5%(bosmer)+7%*0:3(swift)+2%*1:5(medium armor) === 62%-92%

I detailed why this is unhealthy for the game in my movement speed thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/discussion/666066/movement-and-speed-must-be-addressed/p1

CameraBeardThePirate

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

This comment is for sorcerer class exclusivly.

Sorcerer shield healing nerf, why? The whole point of this healing part from the begining is that sorcerer (especialy non pet) were lacking healing power since pet sorc would most likely use twlight. If you think the healing scale too far, you can simply put cap and solve the issue of "too much healing". Another solution is to give sorcerer an actual healing skill that us not a pet or cast time.

Also, negate? Both morphs and base skill are hardly ever used except for very very specific situations in PvP.

Another useless sorcerer skill is power surge, now dragonknights have there own better version of power surge, why this skill is still the same useless morph?

Another skill that is in a weird spot is mages fury, the only excute skill in the game that does not have excution modifier, instead given flat number making it much weaker than excute skills. Even worse is one morph thst us supposed to be be the "extra damage morph" is only dealing more dmg to surrounding enemies while other morph return resources, needless to say the latter morph is much better in both PvE and PvP. This skill sould be looked at and addressed according to what it is supposed to do.

Last skill is escape bolt, why is this skill still not functions like its better counterpart mist form where you choost a target location instead of being lock on the full 15m distance? Furthermore, why streak still does not have a targeting option as well as the free aim one? It would be a quality imporvment that will let sorcerer use its offensive cc streak as intended straight into the targets face or back instead of going going though to other side only to run back to target again in which they already broken free of cc. This location targeting/enemy targeting will make escape bolt a better skill easily used in conjuction with armor sets/skills in the game.

Anyone who takes 5 mins and throws together builds to compare a sorc with power surge vs a warden with polar wind could see the vast difference in class heals. Even if you compare crit surge to polar wind it is not even worth slotting by comparison. The main issue with both morphs of surge is that they require investment into crit, then require a crit to occur, which requires ticks per second, which then has a cooldown baked on to it. Only to just be a single target heal that is sub par after HEAVY amounts of build investment. Compare that to polar wind, where it scales off the easiest and most prevalent stat in the game. Acts as a burst, hot, and heals allies while also giving you major mending at low hp.

I would like to see both morphs have their cooldown removed since you already have the crit chance based cooldown.(opens up incentive to not just stack pen and wd on builds.) Then make power surge the large group 12p morph triggering off outgoing heal crits and crit surge the small group 4p morph that triggers off your outgoing damage.

This would at least help give sorcs a place in group combat. Right now they can only contribute damage, where other classes contribute the same damage + heals.

Original Critical Surge scaled based on direct critical damage done and had a 0.25s cooldown, felt similar to how Briarheart works. I highly doubt ZOS would go back to that design because they changed it to 1s based on any critical hit for a flat value.

I think the current design is fine if a few tweaks were made, I'm not saying you're wrong, but overall they're already very strong abilities in terms of a HOT. Comparing Polar Wind to Power Surge is a very odd comparison because it's a health scaling heal that effects an additional target vs effecting 6 targets with no scaling, they're not really the same category and Polar Wind has been overdue for a nerf for years.

For starters, Sorc needs a class sourced version of Major Prophecy + Savagery to pair with the Minor version. Bound Armaments makes the most sense to me, although Curse.. or even Streak for slotting on either bar could work too. As a comparison, Shadowy Disguise got Prophecy/Savagery and monster damage done added since it's largely a pvp utility skill you won't find useful in pve. You can apply the same logic for Streak and BOL.

Change Critical Surge to scale based on highest offensive stats. Hopefully the dynamic would become tank/healer can still use it for the same or slightly lesser value as live's 3300, but damage dealers would see a decent increase which modernizes it for the extra health and damage we take now vs the last time it was changed before CP 2.0. Bump it up to 60s instead of 33s. ZOS previously mentioned intentions of reducing buff management, only to change like 3 abilities.. Lotus Flower, Chanelled Focus, and Molten Armaments. What happened to everything else? I'm fine with the 1s GCD.

For Power Surge leave the heal as a flat value because healers don't typically have the opportunity to stack high offensive stats so it would probably just end up in a nerf (although I'm not married to this idea), can still scale from crit chance, crit healing, and healing done, change the tick frequency from 3s to 2s to better align with HOTs that it requires to proc from, then change the duration from 33s to 30s... or 20s if it became a really strong aoe hot.

All that said, you want to get real boring with it, you could remove the Crit requirement all together like Siphoning Attacks, but I think that would completely destroy the identity of the skill and it would receive heavy nerfs to its tooltip to justify the guaranteed ticks. I'm completely against making Crit Surge effect 4 people because that would NUKE it. The fact that it only effects yourself is why it has a 3.3k tooltip, which although I think should improve, could not work as a 4 person 60s duration HOT.

Boggles my mind that NB has prophecy and minor expedition now.....major+immunity predator

I posted a video comparing with and without minor expedition in a race. Two runs sync'd with a timer using the same character. I received them between two lights on a path in craglorn. It was a good amount of distance.

In the end, minor expedition was about 0.30 seconds faster. It's not very impactful. It's nice to have but if you take the skill off it's nearly visually unnoticeable.

What a silly way to measure the impact of movement speed.

The impact of movement speed comes from the fact that if you have more movement speed percentage than your opponent (even just a few % points), you can dance in and out of their melee range with nothing they can do about it. If you move away from them, they literally cannot hit you, because you are faster than them and they will not be able to catch you to bring you back into range. It doesn't matter if the difference is slight, because once you're out of range that's it - unless they have more speed or a gap close they aren't catching you with melee abilities.

Joy_Division

MincMincMinc wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

This comment is for sorcerer class exclusivly.

Sorcerer shield healing nerf, why? The whole point of this healing part from the begining is that sorcerer (especialy non pet) were lacking healing power since pet sorc would most likely use twlight. If you think the healing scale too far, you can simply put cap and solve the issue of "too much healing". Another solution is to give sorcerer an actual healing skill that us not a pet or cast time.

Also, negate? Both morphs and base skill are hardly ever used except for very very specific situations in PvP.

Another useless sorcerer skill is power surge, now dragonknights have there own better version of power surge, why this skill is still the same useless morph?

Another skill that is in a weird spot is mages fury, the only excute skill in the game that does not have excution modifier, instead given flat number making it much weaker than excute skills. Even worse is one morph thst us supposed to be be the "extra damage morph" is only dealing more dmg to surrounding enemies while other morph return resources, needless to say the latter morph is much better in both PvE and PvP. This skill sould be looked at and addressed according to what it is supposed to do.

Last skill is escape bolt, why is this skill still not functions like its better counterpart mist form where you choost a target location instead of being lock on the full 15m distance? Furthermore, why streak still does not have a targeting option as well as the free aim one? It would be a quality imporvment that will let sorcerer use its offensive cc streak as intended straight into the targets face or back instead of going going though to other side only to run back to target again in which they already broken free of cc. This location targeting/enemy targeting will make escape bolt a better skill easily used in conjuction with armor sets/skills in the game.

Anyone who takes 5 mins and throws together builds to compare a sorc with power surge vs a warden with polar wind could see the vast difference in class heals. Even if you compare crit surge to polar wind it is not even worth slotting by comparison. The main issue with both morphs of surge is that they require investment into crit, then require a crit to occur, which requires ticks per second, which then has a cooldown baked on to it. Only to just be a single target heal that is sub par after HEAVY amounts of build investment. Compare that to polar wind, where it scales off the easiest and most prevalent stat in the game. Acts as a burst, hot, and heals allies while also giving you major mending at low hp.

I would like to see both morphs have their cooldown removed since you already have the crit chance based cooldown.(opens up incentive to not just stack pen and wd on builds.) Then make power surge the large group 12p morph triggering off outgoing heal crits and crit surge the small group 4p morph that triggers off your outgoing damage.

This would at least help give sorcs a place in group combat. Right now they can only contribute damage, where other classes contribute the same damage + heals.

Trying to compare a busted burst heal skill in Polar Wind to the Sorcerer's skill whose primary function is providing major sorcerery/brutality of course is going to provide a vast differnce in healing.

Polar wind is thr primary survival skill wardens use and that is best compared to Hardened Ward, which is the primary skill Sorcerers. Both are incredibly strong, skills that even make Cloaking NBs jealous, and as such neither Wardens nor sorcerers need a buff for survivability in group combat.

BasP

Deimus wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin could you pass along the player feedback of making the effects of Ghostly Embrace's circles cumulative for example:

1st Circle: DoT
2nd Circle: DoT+Chilled
3rd Cirlce: DoT+Chilled+Corpse

Comparison of the value and damage of this skill, Burning Talons, and Acid Spray seem similar on paper but in reality the damage you will do with Ghostly Embrace will almost always be much less than the other two since you will rarely hit anything with all 3 circles.

As it is now Burning Talons will always hit everything within 6 meters of the caster dealing its full damage, DoT, cc, and synergy if you have another player. Acid Spray has a 20 meter range and will deal its full damage and DoT to anything within that 20 meter range.

Ghostly Embrace has an 18 meter range split into 3. So just 6 meters, the 7-12m section is the only one to deal DoT damage. Each circle does half of the damage Burning Talons and Acid Spray does so to deal equivalent damage you have to hit the target with 2 circles which is difficult, and Burning Talons is still clearly the better skill for its ease of use, having the immobilize cc, and synergy attached to it. The only time Ghostly Embrace might be considered better is if you hit the target with all 3 sections which will not happen often. Most uses of this skill will result in half the damage and one of the 3 new effects for the same Magicka cost.

Making Ghostly Embrace cumulative with all 3 sections applying the DoT will make it more consistent, rewarding for landing the further patches, and comparable in value to the other 2 skills listed in the patch notes.

Yeah, I think that it'd be great if this change was made before U44 launches, because the skill is really lackluster if you happen to only hit targets with either the first or third patch at the moment.

notyuu

A taunt on focused charge for Templar, is this intentional malice or do the Devs not understand that this change has zero use cases?

For a tank it has no use case as they are already going to be using a shield, thus having access to shield charge, which serves the same function of gap closer + stun, and pierce armour, which has the taunt function AND debuffs that are vital to the tank doing their duty.

For the pvper, well, no change there.

For the dps and healers, it has a negative use case as it removes their ability to close distance in fights rapidly without peeling enemies off the tank and thus causing chaos and frustration for the group.

Look, I get it, you want to help Templar tank be a thing, but this isn't how you do it, what Templar tank needs is two things.

1: some sort of aoe immobiliser/snare, adding a snare into ritual of retribution would fill this niche (and make the morph less garbage)

2: sunshield needs either a cost refund based on number of enemies NOT hit IE the fewer enemies (and thus the weaker the shield is) the more of its cost gets refunded OR a massive power increase due to the fact that as it stands now it's about as useful and expensive as a fart in a spacesuit.

MincMincMinc

Joy_Division wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

This comment is for sorcerer class exclusivly.

Sorcerer shield healing nerf, why? The whole point of this healing part from the begining is that sorcerer (especialy non pet) were lacking healing power since pet sorc would most likely use twlight. If you think the healing scale too far, you can simply put cap and solve the issue of "too much healing". Another solution is to give sorcerer an actual healing skill that us not a pet or cast time.

Also, negate? Both morphs and base skill are hardly ever used except for very very specific situations in PvP.

Another useless sorcerer skill is power surge, now dragonknights have there own better version of power surge, why this skill is still the same useless morph?

Another skill that is in a weird spot is mages fury, the only excute skill in the game that does not have excution modifier, instead given flat number making it much weaker than excute skills. Even worse is one morph thst us supposed to be be the "extra damage morph" is only dealing more dmg to surrounding enemies while other morph return resources, needless to say the latter morph is much better in both PvE and PvP. This skill sould be looked at and addressed according to what it is supposed to do.

Last skill is escape bolt, why is this skill still not functions like its better counterpart mist form where you choost a target location instead of being lock on the full 15m distance? Furthermore, why streak still does not have a targeting option as well as the free aim one? It would be a quality imporvment that will let sorcerer use its offensive cc streak as intended straight into the targets face or back instead of going going though to other side only to run back to target again in which they already broken free of cc. This location targeting/enemy targeting will make escape bolt a better skill easily used in conjuction with armor sets/skills in the game.

Anyone who takes 5 mins and throws together builds to compare a sorc with power surge vs a warden with polar wind could see the vast difference in class heals. Even if you compare crit surge to polar wind it is not even worth slotting by comparison. The main issue with both morphs of surge is that they require investment into crit, then require a crit to occur, which requires ticks per second, which then has a cooldown baked on to it. Only to just be a single target heal that is sub par after HEAVY amounts of build investment. Compare that to polar wind, where it scales off the easiest and most prevalent stat in the game. Acts as a burst, hot, and heals allies while also giving you major mending at low hp.

I would like to see both morphs have their cooldown removed since you already have the crit chance based cooldown.(opens up incentive to not just stack pen and wd on builds.) Then make power surge the large group 12p morph triggering off outgoing heal crits and crit surge the small group 4p morph that triggers off your outgoing damage.

This would at least help give sorcs a place in group combat. Right now they can only contribute damage, where other classes contribute the same damage + heals.

Trying to compare a busted burst heal skill in Polar Wind to the Sorcerer's skill whose primary function is providing major sorcerery/brutality of course is going to provide a vast differnce in healing.

Polar wind is thr primary survival skill wardens use and that is best compared to Hardened Ward, which is the primary skill Sorcerers. Both are incredibly strong, skills that even make Cloaking NBs jealous, and as such neither Wardens nor sorcerers need a buff for survivability in group combat.

I thought I already responded to this, sorry.

I was comparing polar to surge because the previous conversation was about the hardened ward nerf or impending nerfs. IMO bouncing between stamsorc and better stamsorc(warden) polar wind is comparable to hardened(burst) and critsurge(hot). I can try to pull numbers next time i play them.....though I think we all know polar is ridiculous with how easy it is to sit at 50khp on any pvp build these days. My main gripe is that sorc and more so stamsorc has absolutely nothing you can do to help allies and a change to power surge would be nice. Its bad enough my group has me swap of stamsorc and one of our other guys swaps off templar for warden off heals.

I actually wonder about comparing a max mag and a max health(pen/sd) mag sorc build. Curious on the scaling of ward one vs the other. (in general wd is 40% more damage per line vs max stat and pen is 80% more damage per line so there could be damage gains)

DrSlaughtr

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

This comment is for sorcerer class exclusivly.

Sorcerer shield healing nerf, why? The whole point of this healing part from the begining is that sorcerer (especialy non pet) were lacking healing power since pet sorc would most likely use twlight. If you think the healing scale too far, you can simply put cap and solve the issue of "too much healing". Another solution is to give sorcerer an actual healing skill that us not a pet or cast time.

Also, negate? Both morphs and base skill are hardly ever used except for very very specific situations in PvP.

Another useless sorcerer skill is power surge, now dragonknights have there own better version of power surge, why this skill is still the same useless morph?

Another skill that is in a weird spot is mages fury, the only excute skill in the game that does not have excution modifier, instead given flat number making it much weaker than excute skills. Even worse is one morph thst us supposed to be be the "extra damage morph" is only dealing more dmg to surrounding enemies while other morph return resources, needless to say the latter morph is much better in both PvE and PvP. This skill sould be looked at and addressed according to what it is supposed to do.

Last skill is escape bolt, why is this skill still not functions like its better counterpart mist form where you choost a target location instead of being lock on the full 15m distance? Furthermore, why streak still does not have a targeting option as well as the free aim one? It would be a quality imporvment that will let sorcerer use its offensive cc streak as intended straight into the targets face or back instead of going going though to other side only to run back to target again in which they already broken free of cc. This location targeting/enemy targeting will make escape bolt a better skill easily used in conjuction with armor sets/skills in the game.

Anyone who takes 5 mins and throws together builds to compare a sorc with power surge vs a warden with polar wind could see the vast difference in class heals. Even if you compare crit surge to polar wind it is not even worth slotting by comparison. The main issue with both morphs of surge is that they require investment into crit, then require a crit to occur, which requires ticks per second, which then has a cooldown baked on to it. Only to just be a single target heal that is sub par after HEAVY amounts of build investment. Compare that to polar wind, where it scales off the easiest and most prevalent stat in the game. Acts as a burst, hot, and heals allies while also giving you major mending at low hp.

I would like to see both morphs have their cooldown removed since you already have the crit chance based cooldown.(opens up incentive to not just stack pen and wd on builds.) Then make power surge the large group 12p morph triggering off outgoing heal crits and crit surge the small group 4p morph that triggers off your outgoing damage.

This would at least help give sorcs a place in group combat. Right now they can only contribute damage, where other classes contribute the same damage + heals.

Original Critical Surge scaled based on direct critical damage done and had a 0.25s cooldown, felt similar to how Briarheart works. I highly doubt ZOS would go back to that design because they changed it to 1s based on any critical hit for a flat value.

I think the current design is fine if a few tweaks were made, I'm not saying you're wrong, but overall they're already very strong abilities in terms of a HOT. Comparing Polar Wind to Power Surge is a very odd comparison because it's a health scaling heal that effects an additional target vs effecting 6 targets with no scaling, they're not really the same category and Polar Wind has been overdue for a nerf for years.

For starters, Sorc needs a class sourced version of Major Prophecy + Savagery to pair with the Minor version. Bound Armaments makes the most sense to me, although Curse.. or even Streak for slotting on either bar could work too. As a comparison, Shadowy Disguise got Prophecy/Savagery and monster damage done added since it's largely a pvp utility skill you won't find useful in pve. You can apply the same logic for Streak and BOL.

Change Critical Surge to scale based on highest offensive stats. Hopefully the dynamic would become tank/healer can still use it for the same or slightly lesser value as live's 3300, but damage dealers would see a decent increase which modernizes it for the extra health and damage we take now vs the last time it was changed before CP 2.0. Bump it up to 60s instead of 33s. ZOS previously mentioned intentions of reducing buff management, only to change like 3 abilities.. Lotus Flower, Chanelled Focus, and Molten Armaments. What happened to everything else? I'm fine with the 1s GCD.

For Power Surge leave the heal as a flat value because healers don't typically have the opportunity to stack high offensive stats so it would probably just end up in a nerf (although I'm not married to this idea), can still scale from crit chance, crit healing, and healing done, change the tick frequency from 3s to 2s to better align with HOTs that it requires to proc from, then change the duration from 33s to 30s... or 20s if it became a really strong aoe hot.

All that said, you want to get real boring with it, you could remove the Crit requirement all together like Siphoning Attacks, but I think that would completely destroy the identity of the skill and it would receive heavy nerfs to its tooltip to justify the guaranteed ticks. I'm completely against making Crit Surge effect 4 people because that would NUKE it. The fact that it only effects yourself is why it has a 3.3k tooltip, which although I think should improve, could not work as a 4 person 60s duration HOT.

Boggles my mind that NB has prophecy and minor expedition now.....major+immunity predator

I posted a video comparing with and without minor expedition in a race. Two runs sync'd with a timer using the same character. I received them between two lights on a path in craglorn. It was a good amount of distance.

In the end, minor expedition was about 0.30 seconds faster. It's not very impactful. It's nice to have but if you take the skill off it's nearly visually unnoticeable.

What a silly way to measure the impact of movement speed.

The impact of movement speed comes from the fact that if you have more movement speed percentage than your opponent (even just a few % points), you can dance in and out of their melee range with nothing they can do about it. If you move away from them, they literally cannot hit you, because you are faster than them and they will not be able to catch you to bring you back into range. It doesn't matter if the difference is slight, because once you're out of range that's it - unless they have more speed or a gap close they aren't catching you with melee abilities.

It's not a silly way to measure it. It's measuring it. It's specific data rather than general assumptions.

Yes it's better than not having it. No it doesn't let you dance around opponents and flee from melee range. To do that you need other sources of speed, like wild hunt.

Major expedition is much more effective.

I run 3 Swift + major and minor expedition + speed relevant cp. I'm fast but far from the fastest on the field. If I put on WH with the same set up I'm a blur.

If you have a better way of demonstration the effect of minor expedition, then by all means share! I'm very interested to see.

Kulikayo

A lot of players are not honest when it comes to class balancing in pvp, as they just want to shine with their main character and be able to 1vX everything. Problem is not underpowered classes (as good builds exist for everyone). Problem is overpowered classes.

Let’s be honest and let’s try to understand what the current pvp state. Let’s considered bruiser playstyle and same level of skills.

It is simply IMPOSSIBLE for other classes to beat Sorc and NB : insane mobility, insane shield (sorc) and heal (NB – crit heal) and insane damage.

I must say that SORC & NB are a bit different. I am no SORC player but I tried MagSorc and they are so super easy to play. I did 10 bg, I 1vX people (sometimes 1v6) and I just don’t die… and get some descent kills : spam shield, spam healing soul, wait for cristal, burst with Energy Overload and sustain… and repeat ! NB bruiser requires some training and advanced skills, but after training, lol, you can just mock everyone else (except sorc).

So we can all think: what is the point today playing pvp with other classes if I don’t stand a chance vs Sorc and NB. If I want to be competitive, should I stop playing my templar, my necro, my stamden, my DK ? What is the point when, even if I am an advanced player, It will be simply IMPOSSIBLE for me to kill a NB or a sorc ? and worst, I know that I will be deleted by those classes.

(2 classes can try, StamArc (Jerall Mountain build maybe) and MagDen (Nothern Storm + Acuity fb +Sachleel bb), but at the end they will lose.)

“Pyrebrand” set is a good example of things I don't understand. It will be nerfed with next update : minus 18% dmg. A skilled bruiser DK with pyrebrand still doesn’t stand a chance vs a skilled bruiser sorc or NB with basic build (wv, ow, rallying, balorgh, crafty...). So why nerfing pyrebrand ? Class sets could be a nice way to balance class and to give a chance to remain competitive for templar, necro, DK...

I believe that PVP must be balanced to maintain high interest to play with all the classes and that none of them should have it all. Sorc and NB have it all today, so they must lost something: maybe dmg, maybe mobility, maybe shield/heal… I let you decide.

And btw, minus 5% heal on shield sorc won't change a thing...

Kulikayo

A lot of players are not honest when it comes to class balancing in pvp, as they just want to shine with their main character and be able to 1vX everything. Problem is not underpowered classes (as good builds exist for everyone). Problem is overpowered classes.

Let’s be honest and let’s try to understand what the current pvp state. Let’s considered bruiser playstyle and same level of skills.

It is simply IMPOSSIBLE for other classes to beat Sorc and NB : insane mobility, insane shield (sorc) and heal (NB – crit heal) and insane damage.

I must say that SORC & NB are a bit different. I am no SORC player but I tried MagSorc and they are so super easy to play. I did 10 bg, I 1vX people (sometimes 1v6) and I just don’t die… and get some descent kills : spam shield, spam healing soul, wait for cristal, burst with Energy Overload and sustain… and repeat ! NB bruiser requires some training and advanced skills, but after training, lol, you can just mock everyone else (except sorc).

So we can all think: what is the point today playing pvp with other classes if I don’t stand a chance vs Sorc and NB. If I want to be competitive, should I stop playing my templar, my necro, my stamden, my DK ? What is the point when, even if I am an advanced player, It will be simply IMPOSSIBLE for me to kill a NB or a sorc ? and worst, I know that I will be deleted by those classes.

(2 classes can try, StamArc (Jerall Mountain build maybe) and MagDen (Nothern Storm + Acuity fb +Sachleel bb), but at the end they will lose.)

“Pyrebrand” set is a good example of things I don't understand. It will be nerfed with next update : minus 18% dmg. A skilled bruiser DK with pyrebrand still doesn’t stand a chance vs a skilled bruiser sorc or NB with basic build (wv, ow, rallying, balorgh, crafty...). So why nerfing pyrebrand ? Class sets could be a nice way to balance class and to give a chance to remain competitive for templar, necro, DK...

I believe that PVP must be balanced to maintain high interest to play with all the classes and that none of them should have it all. Sorc and NB have it all today, so they must lost something: maybe dmg, maybe mobility, maybe shield/heal… I let you decide.

And btw, minus 5% heal on shield sorc won't change a thing...

Nethervoid

I have realized that with the previous change of moving Veiled Strike to Assassination skill tree from Shadow and now with the Cloak nerf it's near impossible for my Stamina Nightblade to have a reasonable access to the Shadow passive "Shadow Barrier" that gives us Major Resolve. Since every single Shadow ability now costs Magicka and cloak being expensive I cannot keep up my Major Resolve. Therefore I think at least 1 ability morph on the Shadow skill tree should be turned into a Stamina ability. Currently Magicka Nightblades are already stronger and now with the cloak change stamina nightblades simply no longer have enough Magicka resource to even have Major Resolve most of the fight. My suggestion would be to change either Mirage or Phantasmal Escape into a stamina morph so that at least Stamina Nightblades are not completely destroyed after this change.

On a second note: Necromancer needs immediate further buffs. There are 2 major problems with the class that can be fixed as follows:

1) The class has no strong spammable skill. Flaming Skull is a joke. It's maybe OK in PVE i have no idea but in terms of PVP necro needs a very good spammable. So either change Flaming Skull OR even better change Hungry Scythe into an Execute ability. That would be thematic and cool to "reap" low hp people with a scythe. Necro is lacking in the department of "awesome" looking/feeling abilities anyways.

2) Speaking of looking/feeling bad the class has 2 "tether" abilities that are both unreliable and comical to be honest. I don't want to "tether" myself to a corpse. No one is gonna stand in that tether and to REITERATE it LOOKS BAD. So remove the tether element from both Shocking Siphon and Restoring Tether and make them both give benefits on the character itself. A nice example is the new necro set that allows the necro himself to be the corpse which LOOKS and FEELS awesome and that you actually can use these abilities to their full potential this way. I think this should be the standard of these skills. Necro should drain the corpse (maybe a 0.4 second cast time can be put in place here) and the benefit should "stick" on the necro himself.

DrSlaughtr

Kulikayo wrote: »

A lot of players are not honest when it comes to class balancing in pvp, as they just want to shine with their main character and be able to 1vX everything. Problem is not underpowered classes (as good builds exist for everyone). Problem is overpowered classes.

Let’s be honest and let’s try to understand what the current pvp state. Let’s considered bruiser playstyle and same level of skills.

It is simply IMPOSSIBLE for other classes to beat Sorc and NB : insane mobility, insane shield (sorc) and heal (NB – crit heal) and insane damage.

I must say that SORC & NB are a bit different. I am no SORC player but I tried MagSorc and they are so super easy to play. I did 10 bg, I 1vX people (sometimes 1v6) and I just don’t die… and get some descent kills : spam shield, spam healing soul, wait for cristal, burst with Energy Overload and sustain… and repeat ! NB bruiser requires some training and advanced skills, but after training, lol, you can just mock everyone else (except sorc).

So we can all think: what is the point today playing pvp with other classes if I don’t stand a chance vs Sorc and NB. If I want to be competitive, should I stop playing my templar, my necro, my stamden, my DK ? What is the point when, even if I am an advanced player, It will be simply IMPOSSIBLE for me to kill a NB or a sorc ? and worst, I know that I will be deleted by those classes.

(2 classes can try, StamArc (Jerall Mountain build maybe) and MagDen (Nothern Storm + Acuity fb +Sachleel bb), but at the end they will lose.)

“Pyrebrand” set is a good example of things I don't understand. It will be nerfed with next update : minus 18% dmg. A skilled bruiser DK with pyrebrand still doesn’t stand a chance vs a skilled bruiser sorc or NB with basic build (wv, ow, rallying, balorgh, crafty...). So why nerfing pyrebrand ? Class sets could be a nice way to balance class and to give a chance to remain competitive for templar, necro, DK...

I believe that PVP must be balanced to maintain high interest to play with all the classes and that none of them should have it all. Sorc and NB have it all today, so they must lost something: maybe dmg, maybe mobility, maybe shield/heal… I let you decide.

And btw, minus 5% heal on shield sorc won't change a thing...

Maybe you can't kill sorcs and nightblades but that doesn't mean they are unkillable. People rely too heavily on what they see. We are all the main character in a first person simulation.

If someone is waving their hand behind your head and you can't see it doesn't mean it isn't happening.

Sorcs and NBs die. Non brawler NBs die a lot easier. You just have to fight them on your terms and not theirs.

For example, last night I had three blues running me down. I went around a corner, cloaked, then went right back to where I was as they ran past. I killed two of them immediately.

If one of them had hit a detect, or just dropped a dawnbreaker, I would have been instant smashed. They shouldn't have followed me but sometimes players get tunnel vision. I take advantage of that.

Likewise, most of the times I get killed are because I made similar mistakes.

Everyone dies. But how you kill a sorc is different than how you kill a warden.

CameraBeardThePirate

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

This comment is for sorcerer class exclusivly.

Sorcerer shield healing nerf, why? The whole point of this healing part from the begining is that sorcerer (especialy non pet) were lacking healing power since pet sorc would most likely use twlight. If you think the healing scale too far, you can simply put cap and solve the issue of "too much healing". Another solution is to give sorcerer an actual healing skill that us not a pet or cast time.

Also, negate? Both morphs and base skill are hardly ever used except for very very specific situations in PvP.

Another useless sorcerer skill is power surge, now dragonknights have there own better version of power surge, why this skill is still the same useless morph?

Another skill that is in a weird spot is mages fury, the only excute skill in the game that does not have excution modifier, instead given flat number making it much weaker than excute skills. Even worse is one morph thst us supposed to be be the "extra damage morph" is only dealing more dmg to surrounding enemies while other morph return resources, needless to say the latter morph is much better in both PvE and PvP. This skill sould be looked at and addressed according to what it is supposed to do.

Last skill is escape bolt, why is this skill still not functions like its better counterpart mist form where you choost a target location instead of being lock on the full 15m distance? Furthermore, why streak still does not have a targeting option as well as the free aim one? It would be a quality imporvment that will let sorcerer use its offensive cc streak as intended straight into the targets face or back instead of going going though to other side only to run back to target again in which they already broken free of cc. This location targeting/enemy targeting will make escape bolt a better skill easily used in conjuction with armor sets/skills in the game.

Anyone who takes 5 mins and throws together builds to compare a sorc with power surge vs a warden with polar wind could see the vast difference in class heals. Even if you compare crit surge to polar wind it is not even worth slotting by comparison. The main issue with both morphs of surge is that they require investment into crit, then require a crit to occur, which requires ticks per second, which then has a cooldown baked on to it. Only to just be a single target heal that is sub par after HEAVY amounts of build investment. Compare that to polar wind, where it scales off the easiest and most prevalent stat in the game. Acts as a burst, hot, and heals allies while also giving you major mending at low hp.

I would like to see both morphs have their cooldown removed since you already have the crit chance based cooldown.(opens up incentive to not just stack pen and wd on builds.) Then make power surge the large group 12p morph triggering off outgoing heal crits and crit surge the small group 4p morph that triggers off your outgoing damage.

This would at least help give sorcs a place in group combat. Right now they can only contribute damage, where other classes contribute the same damage + heals.

Original Critical Surge scaled based on direct critical damage done and had a 0.25s cooldown, felt similar to how Briarheart works. I highly doubt ZOS would go back to that design because they changed it to 1s based on any critical hit for a flat value.

I think the current design is fine if a few tweaks were made, I'm not saying you're wrong, but overall they're already very strong abilities in terms of a HOT. Comparing Polar Wind to Power Surge is a very odd comparison because it's a health scaling heal that effects an additional target vs effecting 6 targets with no scaling, they're not really the same category and Polar Wind has been overdue for a nerf for years.

For starters, Sorc needs a class sourced version of Major Prophecy + Savagery to pair with the Minor version. Bound Armaments makes the most sense to me, although Curse.. or even Streak for slotting on either bar could work too. As a comparison, Shadowy Disguise got Prophecy/Savagery and monster damage done added since it's largely a pvp utility skill you won't find useful in pve. You can apply the same logic for Streak and BOL.

Change Critical Surge to scale based on highest offensive stats. Hopefully the dynamic would become tank/healer can still use it for the same or slightly lesser value as live's 3300, but damage dealers would see a decent increase which modernizes it for the extra health and damage we take now vs the last time it was changed before CP 2.0. Bump it up to 60s instead of 33s. ZOS previously mentioned intentions of reducing buff management, only to change like 3 abilities.. Lotus Flower, Chanelled Focus, and Molten Armaments. What happened to everything else? I'm fine with the 1s GCD.

For Power Surge leave the heal as a flat value because healers don't typically have the opportunity to stack high offensive stats so it would probably just end up in a nerf (although I'm not married to this idea), can still scale from crit chance, crit healing, and healing done, change the tick frequency from 3s to 2s to better align with HOTs that it requires to proc from, then change the duration from 33s to 30s... or 20s if it became a really strong aoe hot.

All that said, you want to get real boring with it, you could remove the Crit requirement all together like Siphoning Attacks, but I think that would completely destroy the identity of the skill and it would receive heavy nerfs to its tooltip to justify the guaranteed ticks. I'm completely against making Crit Surge effect 4 people because that would NUKE it. The fact that it only effects yourself is why it has a 3.3k tooltip, which although I think should improve, could not work as a 4 person 60s duration HOT.

Boggles my mind that NB has prophecy and minor expedition now.....major+immunity predator

I posted a video comparing with and without minor expedition in a race. Two runs sync'd with a timer using the same character. I received them between two lights on a path in craglorn. It was a good amount of distance.

In the end, minor expedition was about 0.30 seconds faster. It's not very impactful. It's nice to have but if you take the skill off it's nearly visually unnoticeable.

What a silly way to measure the impact of movement speed.

The impact of movement speed comes from the fact that if you have more movement speed percentage than your opponent (even just a few % points), you can dance in and out of their melee range with nothing they can do about it. If you move away from them, they literally cannot hit you, because you are faster than them and they will not be able to catch you to bring you back into range. It doesn't matter if the difference is slight, because once you're out of range that's it - unless they have more speed or a gap close they aren't catching you with melee abilities.

It's not a silly way to measure it. It's measuring it. It's specific data rather than general assumptions.

Yes it's better than not having it. No it doesn't let you dance around opponents and flee from melee range. To do that you need other sources of speed, like wild hunt.

Major expedition is much more effective.

I run 3 Swift + major and minor expedition + speed relevant cp. I'm fast but far from the fastest on the field. If I put on WH with the same set up I'm a blur.

If you have a better way of demonstration the effect of minor expedition, then by all means share! I'm very interested to see.

You realize Wild Hunt is the same movement speed bonus as Minor Expedition in combat, right? So you're calling Minor Expedition worthless but Wild Hunt great? How is it that adding 15% from Minor Expedition to your build is not impactful but adding 15% from Wild Hunt makes you a blur?

And on that specific setup you mentioned, Wild Hunt is even less useful, because you're already almost at movement speed cap.

Speed cap is 200%. Triple swift is 21% (121%), Major and Minor is 45% (166% total), celerity is 10% (176%), and sprint is another 40% (over cap - 216%) plus another 3% for each piece of medium. You're hitting movement speed cap while sprinting already, so adding Wild Hunt would not be "making you a blur", and your note about "not being the fastest on the field" is flat out wrong - you literally are the fastest on the field with triple swift, celerity, and major+minor expedition.

Instead of running Wild Hunt, a mythic that is basically being disabled while you're sprinting, why not run Dov Rha instead? You'd still be at speed cap while sprinting, and now you'd have a boatload of resists as well.