PTS Update 44 - Feedback Thread for Classes & Abilities

Gabriel_H

Faulgor wrote: »

This is not a skill a PvE tank would use. As others have stated, one of the core responsibilities of a tank is to group enemies so the DDs can dispatch them more efficiently. Maybe there are some high end encounters where the tank needs to zip around the battlefield? I have not encountered this in any of the veteran dungeons, DLC or otherwise.

I already use both these skills as PvE tank, and have for years. Adding a taunt to explosive charge - which I use as a closer, or when I have aleady herded mobs to gain the major prot - means with multiple mobs I am not having to expend as much resources at the start, and can manage pierces with less hassle. The Sun Shield change, applying an AoE minor maim is what has been lacking for Templar's imo for better damage mitigation against multiple mobs.

As for "zipping around" ... Twins, Sail Ripper, and Bow Breaker in DSR immediately spring to mind. Other places it is useful to have a charge skill: CT following the flight phase, MoS after hunt phase, UG after ghost phase and grappling back, Bloodroot to control the minos quickly, Dread Cellar after exiting portal, or any other place where you don't want the mobs to move, including any mob pack, allowing the DD to immediately lay down AoEs, and leashing in the other mobs.

Just because you wouldn't use something, doesn't mean others wouldn't too.

bladenick

ioResult wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Please download and try it for yourself on pts. The toggle is fine and plays far more smoothly than old cloak. Itll be far easier to time combos into ganks since you do not need to recast every other gcd.

This doesnt even affect bow gankers, because 90% of the time you are sitting in crouch and would only use cloak for 1-2s during initiation....

Do you even play in Cyrodiil during prime time? The lag caused by ball groups definitely WILL cause the toggle off of this Cloak to fail in Cyrodiil just exactly like other toggles fail to toggle off in Cyrodiil.

Beyond this, the complete lack of Mag regen while it is on makes it extremely difficult for a squishy Nightblade to even just solo take a resource outside of a keep. Right now on Live when the guards all focus you, you can cast burst heal and then cast Cloak to be unseen for a couple of seconds while your Magicka regens and then continue attacking.

This is completely impossible to do on PTS because your Mag is not regening when you go into cloak. I know because I spent hours on PTS trying to do all the things Nightblades actually do in Cyrodiil, not just brawl while running around in towers or running around rocks - which is ALL the sweaties on these forums ever do no matter what class they are running.

So on PTS you end up having to completely back off and just crouch in the far distance from the flag, spamming Leeching just to get resources back. And because you're just crouching and guards have a RIDICULOUS stealth detection distance nowadays (yet another nerf ZOS implemented in the past), you have to try to get back into attack range again while they can suddenly see you.

Repeat this two or three times on PTS just to solo take a single resource or to solo the guards on the front door of a keep, where it was something any Nightblade could easily do before this stupidly ridiculous nerf to Cloak.

Then try to actually sneak into the open front door of an enemy keep while the zerglings are firing siege over & over at the front door. With Cloak toggled on and no Magicka regen, you can't HEAL yourself as you try to get inside because you have no Mag regen & the only burst heal available to the class is MAGICKA based.

So yes, those of us who have gone onto the PTS and tried to do all these things, have plainly seen them FAIL on PTS whereas they are easy things for the Nightblade to go do on Live.

This change doesn't affect Brawlerblades, which make up what maybe 10% or less of the Nightblade population in Cyrodiil but it completely BREAKS the class for 90% of the the Nightblades in Cyrodiil, most of whom are PvDooring, not trying to gank the sweaties.

This is a mindlessly stupid change to a class-defining skill that is unnecessary and unwanted by 90% of the people who actually play the class in Cyrodiil.

If sweaties want ZOS to nerf the class in a way that will actually help the sweaties defeat immortal Brawlblades, they need to go yell at ZOS about the Shadow Barrier passive. That is something that will actually make the Brawlblades that they cry are too OP, less so. But 90% of Nightblades are so squishy, this passive doesn't even matter to them and wouldn't care if they nerfed it.

And if ZOS wants to increase damage for PvE, there are a ton of skills in the Nightblade class trees that are never used in PvP which could be buffed for PvE in all sorts of ways.

But ZOS doesn't do that. It is completely evident now that they don't have a single person on the "Combat Team" who even remotely plays Nightblade at all, let alone in Cyrodiil PvP.

Sweaties on these forums all whine to us to play a Brawlblade. Guess what? Some of us do play one, but not in Cyrodiil. We play them in BGs where brawling is so much more necessary to win a BG whereas there are far more fun things to do in Cyrodiil - in open world PvP - than running around humping towers and licking grout as a Brawlblade. That Nightblade playstyle holds no appeal to 90% of the people who actually main a Nightblade overall for all the things they do in ESO.

So the sweaties on this forum can stop telling us how to play a class that we actually main every day but which they - at best - roll into Cyrodiil on occassionally to run around towers with their friends Ulti-dumping casuals Xv1 and calling themselves "S-Tier" or whatever other silly name they come up with to try to rank how sweaty each other are when we're just out there having fun with our friends.

Toggle + No Mag Regen for this skill is a death sentence for 90% or more of the people just trying to have fun playing the class in Cyrodiil.

Advice from sweaties is unwanted and unappreciated because we've not seen them play anything other than a Brawlblade. Or if we have seen them on a squishy Nightblade, they get clapped so hard so many times so quickly that the sweaties run back on their Afraid To Die classes like Warden, DK and Sorc so fast it'll make your head spin. Playing a squishy Nighblade in Cyrodiil is hard and none of the sweaties do it for long - if at all - so they can just stop trying to tell us how we play the game is wrong and bad and intolerable. Their opinion doesn't matter to us at all & shouldn't matter to ZOS either.

Agree with you dude, since I main Mag melee NB, it totally destroyed

But I'm afraid, the dev will implment this change whatever, becasue the new 2 side BG, which is round base for each game set, round end with only 1 side all dead, it conflict with current NB cloak play style, which can be build as perm cloak, this will end that round never end casue 1 NB use perm cloak to play hide and seek...
Destory 1 class for purpose for this new game mode seems the reason behind this, maybe it not somthing of balance.. it look so lazy and no logic if only conside in balance aspect.

StihlReign

The changes to Nightblade cloak from PTS Update 44 should not be released live. The changes to Shadowy Disguise offer no improvement to the current version on the live servers.

The toggle feels terrible, it's awkward to use, it feels broken. Weaving the ability while fighting in almost any environment where NBs use cloak - PvE or PvP, results in death. Resource management while fighting is a strain. It shouldn't be used in a fight, the cost is extreme. Hundreds of hours of split second timing for thousands of players will need to be retrained.

This change will probably force tons of NBs to either quit, or abandon most playstyles to become extreme burst, group gankers.

FamousNBZonneSo

arcanist needing to use 3 crux for worse hardened ward , getting nerfed feels funny

MincMincMinc

StihlReign wrote: »

The changes to Nightblade cloak from PTS Update 44 should not be released live. The changes to Shadowy Disguise offer no improvement to the current version on the live servers.

The toggle feels terrible, it's awkward to use, it feels broken. Weaving the ability while fighting in almost any environment where NBs use cloak - PvE or PvP, results in death. Resource management while fighting is a strain. It shouldn't be used in a fight, the cost is extreme. Hundreds of hours of split second timing for thousands of players will need to be retrained.

This change will probably force tons of NBs to either quit, or abandon most playstyles to become extreme burst, group gankers.

You should try downloading pts and actually trying the skill first before making uninformed comments. The toggle feels flawless and mechanically is sound. What are you complaining about hundreds of hours of timing needs to be retrained.... you literally dont need to juggle the skill anymore. It auto disables when expected.

The cost structure should be your focus of debate.... otherwise zos may not focus their changes on the correct aspect. Ask for a ramping cost instead of the flat out mag cut. Problem with the mag cut is that if you cloak when a regen tick happens instead of just being the initial cost, it will be the initial cost+regen tick lost. This would happen 'randomly' depending on how well you time your ticks.

AndreNoir

I haven't tried cloak changes yet, but toggle has been one of my top wishes for a long time. Resource management may become a problem, but only because, during armor changes, they made light armor useless and even harmful.

bladenick

MincMincMinc wrote: »

StihlReign wrote: »

The changes to Nightblade cloak from PTS Update 44 should not be released live. The changes to Shadowy Disguise offer no improvement to the current version on the live servers.

The toggle feels terrible, it's awkward to use, it feels broken. Weaving the ability while fighting in almost any environment where NBs use cloak - PvE or PvP, results in death. Resource management while fighting is a strain. It shouldn't be used in a fight, the cost is extreme. Hundreds of hours of split second timing for thousands of players will need to be retrained.

This change will probably force tons of NBs to either quit, or abandon most playstyles to become extreme burst, group gankers.

You should try downloading pts and actually trying the skill first before making uninformed comments. The toggle feels flawless and mechanically is sound. What are you complaining about hundreds of hours of timing needs to be retrained.... you literally dont need to juggle the skill anymore. It auto disables when expected.

The cost structure should be your focus of debate.... otherwise zos may not focus their changes on the correct aspect. Ask for a ramping cost instead of the flat out mag cut. Problem with the mag cut is that if you cloak when a regen tick happens instead of just being the initial cost, it will be the initial cost+regen tick lost. This would happen 'randomly' depending on how well you time your ticks.

i had tried... press crouch not untoggle to remove this god damn mana drain status. you just like a fool if your oppenent drink detect pot.. i just found the only conveince way to untoggle it, is press sprint... for other method such as cast skill need take 1 GCD, either press mouse LB hit the air or just press ctrl to stand not able to untoggle cloak..

it god dman sucide in PVP. use it = sucide.. get no mana to cast healing....

Tommy_The_Gun

bladenick wrote: »

ioResult wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Please download and try it for yourself on pts. The toggle is fine and plays far more smoothly than old cloak. Itll be far easier to time combos into ganks since you do not need to recast every other gcd.

This doesnt even affect bow gankers, because 90% of the time you are sitting in crouch and would only use cloak for 1-2s during initiation....

Do you even play in Cyrodiil during prime time? The lag caused by ball groups definitely WILL cause the toggle off of this Cloak to fail in Cyrodiil just exactly like other toggles fail to toggle off in Cyrodiil.

Beyond this, the complete lack of Mag regen while it is on makes it extremely difficult for a squishy Nightblade to even just solo take a resource outside of a keep. Right now on Live when the guards all focus you, you can cast burst heal and then cast Cloak to be unseen for a couple of seconds while your Magicka regens and then continue attacking.

This is completely impossible to do on PTS because your Mag is not regening when you go into cloak. I know because I spent hours on PTS trying to do all the things Nightblades actually do in Cyrodiil, not just brawl while running around in towers or running around rocks - which is ALL the sweaties on these forums ever do no matter what class they are running.

So on PTS you end up having to completely back off and just crouch in the far distance from the flag, spamming Leeching just to get resources back. And because you're just crouching and guards have a RIDICULOUS stealth detection distance nowadays (yet another nerf ZOS implemented in the past), you have to try to get back into attack range again while they can suddenly see you.

Repeat this two or three times on PTS just to solo take a single resource or to solo the guards on the front door of a keep, where it was something any Nightblade could easily do before this stupidly ridiculous nerf to Cloak.

Then try to actually sneak into the open front door of an enemy keep while the zerglings are firing siege over & over at the front door. With Cloak toggled on and no Magicka regen, you can't HEAL yourself as you try to get inside because you have no Mag regen & the only burst heal available to the class is MAGICKA based.

So yes, those of us who have gone onto the PTS and tried to do all these things, have plainly seen them FAIL on PTS whereas they are easy things for the Nightblade to go do on Live.

This change doesn't affect Brawlerblades, which make up what maybe 10% or less of the Nightblade population in Cyrodiil but it completely BREAKS the class for 90% of the the Nightblades in Cyrodiil, most of whom are PvDooring, not trying to gank the sweaties.

This is a mindlessly stupid change to a class-defining skill that is unnecessary and unwanted by 90% of the people who actually play the class in Cyrodiil.

If sweaties want ZOS to nerf the class in a way that will actually help the sweaties defeat immortal Brawlblades, they need to go yell at ZOS about the Shadow Barrier passive. That is something that will actually make the Brawlblades that they cry are too OP, less so. But 90% of Nightblades are so squishy, this passive doesn't even matter to them and wouldn't care if they nerfed it.

And if ZOS wants to increase damage for PvE, there are a ton of skills in the Nightblade class trees that are never used in PvP which could be buffed for PvE in all sorts of ways.

But ZOS doesn't do that. It is completely evident now that they don't have a single person on the "Combat Team" who even remotely plays Nightblade at all, let alone in Cyrodiil PvP.

Sweaties on these forums all whine to us to play a Brawlblade. Guess what? Some of us do play one, but not in Cyrodiil. We play them in BGs where brawling is so much more necessary to win a BG whereas there are far more fun things to do in Cyrodiil - in open world PvP - than running around humping towers and licking grout as a Brawlblade. That Nightblade playstyle holds no appeal to 90% of the people who actually main a Nightblade overall for all the things they do in ESO.

So the sweaties on this forum can stop telling us how to play a class that we actually main every day but which they - at best - roll into Cyrodiil on occassionally to run around towers with their friends Ulti-dumping casuals Xv1 and calling themselves "S-Tier" or whatever other silly name they come up with to try to rank how sweaty each other are when we're just out there having fun with our friends.

Toggle + No Mag Regen for this skill is a death sentence for 90% or more of the people just trying to have fun playing the class in Cyrodiil.

Advice from sweaties is unwanted and unappreciated because we've not seen them play anything other than a Brawlblade. Or if we have seen them on a squishy Nightblade, they get clapped so hard so many times so quickly that the sweaties run back on their Afraid To Die classes like Warden, DK and Sorc so fast it'll make your head spin. Playing a squishy Nighblade in Cyrodiil is hard and none of the sweaties do it for long - if at all - so they can just stop trying to tell us how we play the game is wrong and bad and intolerable. Their opinion doesn't matter to us at all & shouldn't matter to ZOS either.

Agree with you dude, since I main Mag melee NB, it totally destroyed

But I'm afraid, the dev will implment this change whatever, becasue the new 2 side BG, which is round base for each game set, round end with only 1 side all dead, it conflict with current NB cloak play style, which can be build as perm cloak, this will end that round never end casue 1 NB use perm cloak to play hide and seek...
Destory 1 class for purpose for this new game mode seems the reason behind this, maybe it not somthing of balance.. it look so lazy and no logic if only conside in balance aspect.

If this is indeed the case and sole reason for cloak change, then I have a suggestion: Don't change cloak at all, but instead add a rule to 2 side BG to not allow invisibility & stealth at all. I mean it is already "a thing" if you are for example carrying an Elder Scroll in Cyrodiil. Why nuke an entire class & its gameplay if you can simply remove mechanic from a problematic game mode ? Especially considering that "perma invisibility" will still be available via other means. And tbh. I never understood why it is such a big deal in a 1st place. Form my experience, the only players who use perma-invisbility are basically PvE-ers who want to avoid PvP in a 1st place in a PvP areas and just do PvE questing & stuff. PvP NBs don't really stay perma-invisible.

And btw. I alredy posted it here, but I will repeat:
Toggle Cloak feels junky as heck. Clunky and unreliable. Compared to live, on PTS you have close to no control & feedback if it works or not. This imho will have the potenial to kill this unique skill in PvP as when it comes to reliability and actual usage on live server it is quite possible that Vamp invisiblity & invisiblity potions will out-preform it (if it happnes it means that any class may outperorm NB in tearms of stealth). This will be also true even in PvE to some degree.

Clearly, game can't handle this and it also seems like Cloak itself was never meant to be a toggle. It behavaviour & things that interact, such us detection potions & skills highly suggest that.

As for the PvE buff... I am not sure if it is even worth it. I mean I have tried a couple of different rotations and in every single one it just felt awkward & clynky to just cast cloak for a split second to gain dmg buff. I am not sure if wasting global cooldown is even worth it really.

I would also want to adress the elephant in the room that no one seem to mention:

Shadow Barrier passive - it is a crucial buff for every NB build.
Last patch, NBs can no longer use their spamable to proc it (Veiled Strike was moved to assasination). Cloak that is castable does proc it, but when it becomes a toggle - it only procs it with initial cast. So again - it can't be used to fluidly proc Shadow Barrier.

This basically means that the only reliable way to naturally proc Shadow Barrier passive is basically gone for the majority of builds, as the only builds that can proc it without breaking their rotation & combos will be the ones that use Twisting Path - and this means that it is basically only Mag NB PvE DPS and maybe that one NB that is in a Ball Group (if BGs have any NBs at all).

MincMincMinc

bladenick wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

StihlReign wrote: »

The changes to Nightblade cloak from PTS Update 44 should not be released live. The changes to Shadowy Disguise offer no improvement to the current version on the live servers.

The toggle feels terrible, it's awkward to use, it feels broken. Weaving the ability while fighting in almost any environment where NBs use cloak - PvE or PvP, results in death. Resource management while fighting is a strain. It shouldn't be used in a fight, the cost is extreme. Hundreds of hours of split second timing for thousands of players will need to be retrained.

This change will probably force tons of NBs to either quit, or abandon most playstyles to become extreme burst, group gankers.

You should try downloading pts and actually trying the skill first before making uninformed comments. The toggle feels flawless and mechanically is sound. What are you complaining about hundreds of hours of timing needs to be retrained.... you literally dont need to juggle the skill anymore. It auto disables when expected.

The cost structure should be your focus of debate.... otherwise zos may not focus their changes on the correct aspect. Ask for a ramping cost instead of the flat out mag cut. Problem with the mag cut is that if you cloak when a regen tick happens instead of just being the initial cost, it will be the initial cost+regen tick lost. This would happen 'randomly' depending on how well you time your ticks.

i had tried... press crouch not untoggle to remove this god damn mana drain status. you just like a fool if your oppenent drink detect pot.. i just found the only conveince way to untoggle it, is press sprint... for other method such as cast skill need take 1 GCD, either press mouse LB hit the air or just press ctrl to stand not able to untoggle cloak..

it god dman sucide in PVP. use it = sucide.. get no mana to cast healing....

Youd never need to untoggle in any pressure scenario, so what is the issue. Can you provide a situation where you would want to untoggle in combat where you are in danger instead of using the various actions that uncloak you?

Detect pots haven't changed the dynamic really, if a player is running after you trying to attack you after drinking a potion....they probably used a detect pot. Cloak would untoggle correctly when you decide to run or fight. Would you rather detect pots show you to the enemy that drank it, or uncloak you to the entire enemy zerg? The main issue I think may confuse you here is that it is unclear who used detect pots. This is a greater issue in the game where hard counterplay mechanics are near invisible, yet some newer animations for simple non important procs and skills have crazy ultimate looking animations that block all vision *cough* arc tentacles. Look at how many roots simply dont have animations that are clear, some dont even have animations like escapist poisons.

Again I think we and everyone else can agree that the mag cut MUST change.

necro_the_crafter

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Youd never need to untoggle in any pressure scenario, so what is the issue. Can you provide a situation where you would want to untoggle in combat where you are in danger instead of using the various actions that uncloak you?

Detect pots haven't changed the dynamic really, if a player is running after you trying to attack you after drinking a potion....they probably used a detect pot. Cloak would untoggle correctly when you decide to run or fight. Would you rather detect pots show you to the enemy that drank it, or uncloak you to the entire enemy zerg? The main issue I think may confuse you here is that it is unclear who used detect pots. This is a greater issue in the game where hard counterplay mechanics are near invisible, yet some newer animations for simple non important procs and skills have crazy ultimate looking animations that block all vision *cough* arc tentacles. Look at how many roots simply dont have animations that are clear, some dont even have animations like escapist poisons.

Again I think we and everyone else can agree that the mag cut MUST change.

Enemy player that under an effect of detect pot have a LITERALLY BIG RED EYE ABOVE THEM. You can see peeople who use detection, be it potion, evil hunter or mages light. Just look for a BIG RED EYE ICON ABOVE THEM.

What actualy makes me question any post where nb's complainig about decet pots, its like, you literaly have to go off your way, to spend ingame gold or time collecting mats, to then craft a specific poition that works only against 1 skill on a single class. Oh, also you have to drop tri-stat potion, ulti potion, immovability poition, or anything that can give you real advantage, to have a 15 sec window to chase down that one pesky NB. No other class has a need for you to spend so much time ouside of combat, outside of pvp, to counter them. AND without this potion NBs can literraly reset the fight as many times as they want. OR you have to change one of your skill to have a detect that is again, only good against a person that can go invis and needs to be detected, and against everyone else its just passive major savagery or major protection. No other class forces you to itemise or build your skills in a specific way, to have atleast a chanse against them.

MincMincMinc

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Youd never need to untoggle in any pressure scenario, so what is the issue. Can you provide a situation where you would want to untoggle in combat where you are in danger instead of using the various actions that uncloak you?

Detect pots haven't changed the dynamic really, if a player is running after you trying to attack you after drinking a potion....they probably used a detect pot. Cloak would untoggle correctly when you decide to run or fight. Would you rather detect pots show you to the enemy that drank it, or uncloak you to the entire enemy zerg? The main issue I think may confuse you here is that it is unclear who used detect pots. This is a greater issue in the game where hard counterplay mechanics are near invisible, yet some newer animations for simple non important procs and skills have crazy ultimate looking animations that block all vision *cough* arc tentacles. Look at how many roots simply dont have animations that are clear, some dont even have animations like escapist poisons.

Again I think we and everyone else can agree that the mag cut MUST change.

Enemy player that under an effect of detect pot have a LITERALLY BIG RED EYE ABOVE THEM. You can see peeople who use detection, be it potion, evil hunter or mages light. Just look for a BIG RED EYE ICON ABOVE THEM.

I know, and apparently these nightblades cant see that clearly.

necro_the_crafter

MincMincMinc wrote: »

I know, and apparently these nightblades cant see that clearly.

my bad, must have read it wrong.

Tommy_The_Gun

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

Enemy player that under an effect of detect pot have a LITERALLY BIG RED EYE ABOVE THEM. You can see peeople who use detection, be it potion, evil hunter or mages light. Just look for a BIG RED EYE ICON ABOVE THEM.

I think that "The Red eye icon" is for Detection Skills only. I don't think that Detection Potions have any indicator / feedback who has it "on" at all. So, unless they patched it very recently and I am mistaken, I do think this is the very reason why people use detection potions. Cuz enemy players have no way of knowing who is using them and they also have no feedback who can see them. I mean, weird things do happen with detection potions. Some times players are detected "by nothing" (stealth/invisibility is interrupted with blue orb) - but in reality it is an invisible player that is using detection potions (yes, you can use those potions and remain in stealth/invisible yourself), or players are hidden, but all of the sudden hit with single target skill as they had no feedback that "some one sees them".

Hence why detecion potions are a very strong & "nuclar option" hard counter to any form of stealth & invisbility... and you can make various kinds of those potions so aside from detection you can have other effects, so it is not like you are wasting potions cooldown entirely. and btw. Imagine if there were potions that for example "remove X mechanic" (shields, healing, gap closers, buffs and what have you) from enemy players around you. Of course people would use them.

MincMincMinc

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

I know, and apparently these nightblades cant see that clearly.

my bad, must have read it wrong.

No, i worded it to convey that the "counterplay" is unclear. Or atleast not prioritized animation wise.

IMO the game is a clusterFk when it comes to animations. What happened to clear telegraphs for crucial skills? I dont care to see massive tentacle spam that are 50m long shooting across the battlefield. I want to see the snares, stuns, roots, chains, ultimates that might hit me so I have proper time to react and counterplay. Maybe it is an issue of zos having multiple devs work on different aspects at the same time, but the team does not have a clearly layed out standard for this VERY important part of combat.

bladenick

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Youd never need to untoggle in any pressure scenario, so what is the issue. Can you provide a situation where you would want to untoggle in combat where you are in danger instead of using the various actions that uncloak you?

Detect pots haven't changed the dynamic really, if a player is running after you trying to attack you after drinking a potion....they probably used a detect pot. Cloak would untoggle correctly when you decide to run or fight. Would you rather detect pots show you to the enemy that drank it, or uncloak you to the entire enemy zerg? The main issue I think may confuse you here is that it is unclear who used detect pots. This is a greater issue in the game where hard counterplay mechanics are near invisible, yet some newer animations for simple non important procs and skills have crazy ultimate looking animations that block all vision *cough* arc tentacles. Look at how many roots simply dont have animations that are clear, some dont even have animations like escapist poisons.

Again I think we and everyone else can agree that the mag cut MUST change.

Enemy player that under an effect of detect pot have a LITERALLY BIG RED EYE ABOVE THEM. You can see peeople who use detection, be it potion, evil hunter or mages light. Just look for a BIG RED EYE ICON ABOVE THEM.

What actualy makes me question any post where nb's complainig about decet pots, its like, you literaly have to go off your way, to spend ingame gold or time collecting mats, to then craft a specific poition that works only against 1 skill on a single class. Oh, also you have to drop tri-stat potion, ulti potion, immovability poition, or anything that can give you real advantage, to have a 15 sec window to chase down that one pesky NB. No other class has a need for you to spend so much time ouside of combat, outside of pvp, to counter them. AND without this potion NBs can literraly reset the fight as many times as they want. OR you have to change one of your skill to have a detect that is again, only good against a person that can go invis and needs to be detected, and against everyone else its just passive major savagery or major protection. No other class forces you to itemise or build your skills in a specific way, to have atleast a chanse against them.

I'm main NB player, it WRONG, the big RED EYE is only for blue potion named as Detect Potion, if you get Red color Immobilize potion with Detect feature, this potion get no RED EYE , and the cloak caster get no way to know if the it been see or not




the most USAUAL CASE of untoggle cloak is switch INVISIBLE stauts to HIDE, in live server, if you keep crouch during invisble, it auto switch to HIDE status once 3 sec cloak end and your are far enough from enemy, then look at PTS, there NO WAY to do this, you toggle on cloak, run away from enemy, then you want end the INVISIBLE which burn you mana out, and switch to HIDE status, sorry , there NO WAY, you need either cast an skill which had porperty of expose youself(shred offer as exampler, in opposite, Cast 2H skill Rally will not Untoggle it) or press sprint,

it operate very stupid and poorly implemented, there no NB main not enrage with this change, it shall with class redesign to incorperate this class fundamantal change, and the main purpose of this change is nothing to do with balance, just for the 2 side BG that no invisible class allowed, as it get new ROUND feature for each game set, each side need fight for death, not allow to run with cloak...

MincMincMinc

bladenick wrote: »

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Youd never need to untoggle in any pressure scenario, so what is the issue. Can you provide a situation where you would want to untoggle in combat where you are in danger instead of using the various actions that uncloak you?

Detect pots haven't changed the dynamic really, if a player is running after you trying to attack you after drinking a potion....they probably used a detect pot. Cloak would untoggle correctly when you decide to run or fight. Would you rather detect pots show you to the enemy that drank it, or uncloak you to the entire enemy zerg? The main issue I think may confuse you here is that it is unclear who used detect pots. This is a greater issue in the game where hard counterplay mechanics are near invisible, yet some newer animations for simple non important procs and skills have crazy ultimate looking animations that block all vision *cough* arc tentacles. Look at how many roots simply dont have animations that are clear, some dont even have animations like escapist poisons.

Again I think we and everyone else can agree that the mag cut MUST change.

Enemy player that under an effect of detect pot have a LITERALLY BIG RED EYE ABOVE THEM. You can see peeople who use detection, be it potion, evil hunter or mages light. Just look for a BIG RED EYE ICON ABOVE THEM.

What actualy makes me question any post where nb's complainig about decet pots, its like, you literaly have to go off your way, to spend ingame gold or time collecting mats, to then craft a specific poition that works only against 1 skill on a single class. Oh, also you have to drop tri-stat potion, ulti potion, immovability poition, or anything that can give you real advantage, to have a 15 sec window to chase down that one pesky NB. No other class has a need for you to spend so much time ouside of combat, outside of pvp, to counter them. AND without this potion NBs can literraly reset the fight as many times as they want. OR you have to change one of your skill to have a detect that is again, only good against a person that can go invis and needs to be detected, and against everyone else its just passive major savagery or major protection. No other class forces you to itemise or build your skills in a specific way, to have atleast a chanse against them.

I'm main NB player, it WRONG, the big RED EYE is only for blue potion named as Detect Potion, if you get Red color Immobilize potion with Detect feature, this potion get no RED EYE , and the cloak caster get no way to know if the it been see or not

So how does this make the toggle a bad feature?

Your issue lies with the potion system of the game. If you believe there is a clear bug or mechanic working against the design intent, report it as such. Complaining saying some good change shouldn't happen because another mechanic is broken makes no sense. Ask for the dysfunctional mechanic to be fixed and provide the info for it to be fixed.

ioResult

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

Enemy player that under an effect of detect pot have a LITERALLY BIG RED EYE ABOVE THEM. You can see peeople who use detection, be it potion, evil hunter or mages light. Just look for a BIG RED EYE ICON ABOVE THEM.

Something else uttered by someone who has never played the class which is NOT true.

Some of the pots you can craft to give you Stealth Detection DO NOT PUT A BIG RED EYE ABOVE YOU so there is NO way to know you are running a detect. We have asked ZOS to fix this FOR YEARS but all they do instead is nerf after nerf after nerf to be in stealth or be pulled out of stealth.

monkidb16_ESO

monkidb16_ESO wrote: »

Either keep the pulsing magicka cost but only stunt your magicka while moving (similar to sneak) or sharply reduce the pulsing magicka cost (similar to Vamp).

Shadow Cloak: This ability and the Shadowy Disguise morph now only disable your Magicka Recovery while you are actively moving while either ability is active, rather than during the entire time. These abilities both also cost half as much when active and you are stationary.

Seems like they went with the sneak-like approach.

I still think the changes don't address the correct issues, but at least Cloak isn't entirely gutted anymore, so thanks for that.

Jaimeh

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

And btw. I alredy posted it here, but I will repeat:
Toggle Cloak feels junky as heck. Clunky and unreliable. Compared to live, on PTS you have close to no control & feedback if it works or not. This imho will have the potenial to kill this unique skill in PvP as when it comes to reliability and actual usage on live server it is quite possible that Vamp invisiblity & invisiblity potions will out-preform it (if it happnes it means that any class may outperorm NB in tearms of stealth). This will be also true even in PvE to some degree.

Yes, I agree, it's awful to use. They said in the dev comment that it feels way more natural... I wonder where they get their feedback from. To me it reads as if they've already made up their minds about it, but at least they could have the decency not present it as feedback-based, the majority of NB players hate the toggle @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Tommy_The_Gun

monkidb16_ESO wrote: »

Seems like they went with the sneak-like approach.

I still think the changes don't address the correct issues, but at least Cloak isn't entirely gutted anymore, so thanks for that.

PTS is still offline, so it is hard to tell for sure, but When I think about it... it kinda feels like it won't help much and won't address the numerous issues that were raised. If it will cost half per 2 seconds when stationary but mag recovery will be on when stationary, it means that it will still require at least 1500+ mag recovery to slowly regenerate. Bu then again, we have "transitioning" to crouch stealth or invisibility potions or vamp invisibility passive... and on top skill like equilibrium so it will be still possible to stay invisible for a very long time, but managing cloak will be way harder than on live. So again, I do have a strong feeling that the result will be the opposite of the goal.

If they are trying to mimic crouch-stealth, but in a form of a toggle magicka costing ability, then imho they could add different "tiers" of magicka cost. Very cheap like 500 when stationary, more expensive when "walking" and then the current cost when moving normally. And it would actually make perfect logical sense. I mean cloak in TES lore is an illusion spell. Like "chameleon". So it would make sense to base the cost on moving speed somehow. Very cheap, close to nothing if you are stationary, but costs would increase the faster you move. So, if you have troubles maintaining it (example: you are stam build and don't have huge mag recovery, you could still use it, but you would need to move slower or stand still from time to time).

Additionally, I am not sure if it would not be better to play around with magicka recovery % reduction instead of just flat out disabling it. So it could be a mixture of cost per second based on movement speed and magicka recovery % reduction on various types of movement (stand still, walk, normal).

Either way, it seems like they went with a toggle anyway, so I guess it is kinda RIP in Cyro as it most likely will be far to unreliable and will bug out way too often to be usable in lag (Cyro 24/7). Most PvP NBs will probably switch to ranged or bombing. Melee & Brawling will be close to impossible with cloak being a toggle (unless you don't use it, but at that point should be playing stam sorc really).

Also, this is week 3, and most likely this is the final version (it usually is).

GraysontheGray

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

monkidb16_ESO wrote: »

Seems like they went with the sneak-like approach.

I still think the changes don't address the correct issues, but at least Cloak isn't entirely gutted anymore, so thanks for that.

PTS is still offline, so it is hard to tell for sure, but When I think about it... it kinda feels like it won't help much and won't address the numerous issues that were raised. If it will cost half per 2 seconds when stationary but mag recovery will be on when stationary, it means that it will still require at least 1500+ mag recovery to slowly regenerate. Bu then again, we have "transitioning" to crouch stealth or invisibility potions or vamp invisibility passive... and on top skill like equilibrium so it will be still possible to stay invisible for a very long time, but managing cloak will be way harder than on live. So again, I do have a strong feeling that the result will be the opposite of the goal.

If they are trying to mimic crouch-stealth, but in a form of a toggle magicka costing ability, then imho they could add different "tiers" of magicka cost. Very cheap like 500 when stationary, more expensive when "walking" and then the current cost when moving normally. And it would actually make perfect logical sense. I mean cloak in TES lore is an illusion spell. Like "chameleon". So it would make sense to base the cost on moving speed somehow. Very cheap, close to nothing if you are stationary, but costs would increase the faster you move. So, if you have troubles maintaining it (example: you are stam build and don't have huge mag recovery, you could still use it, but you would need to move slower or stand still from time to time).

Additionally, I am not sure if it would not be better to play around with magicka recovery % reduction instead of just flat out disabling it. So it could be a mixture of cost per second based on movement speed and magicka recovery % reduction on various types of movement (stand still, walk, normal).

Either way, it seems like they went with a toggle anyway, so I guess it is kinda RIP in Cyro as it most likely will be far to unreliable and will bug out way too often to be usable in lag (Cyro 24/7). Most PvP NBs will probably switch to ranged or bombing. Melee & Brawling will be close to impossible with cloak being a toggle (unless you don't use it, but at that point should be playing stam sorc really).

Also, this is week 3, and most likely this is the final version (it usually is).

1500+ mag recovery is possible with no investment other than khajiit race and 1 piece of light armor. Infinite invisibility was possible before this change and will be laughably easy if this goes live. Awful change that I can’t wait to abuse.

Theist_VII

Thanks for eclipsing the horrible Sun Shield pass we finally got week 1 with the Cloak changes.

Akatosh forbid an unused skill finally gets attention, let’s just nerf everything else to be equally garbage.

Theist_VII

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

This is not a skill a PvE tank would use. As others have stated, one of the core responsibilities of a tank is to group enemies so the DDs can dispatch them more efficiently. Maybe there are some high end encounters where the tank needs to zip around the battlefield? I have not encountered this in any of the veteran dungeons, DLC or otherwise.

I already use both these skills as PvE tank, and have for years. Adding a taunt to explosive charge - which I use as a closer, or when I have aleady herded mobs to gain the major prot - means with multiple mobs I am not having to expend as much resources at the start, and can manage pierces with less hassle. The Sun Shield change, applying an AoE minor maim is what has been lacking for Templar's imo for better damage mitigation against multiple mobs.

As for "zipping around" ... Twins, Sail Ripper, and Bow Breaker in DSR immediately spring to mind. Other places it is useful to have a charge skill: CT following the flight phase, MoS after hunt phase, UG after ghost phase and grappling back, Bloodroot to control the minos quickly, Dread Cellar after exiting portal, or any other place where you don't want the mobs to move, including any mob pack, allowing the DD to immediately lay down AoEs, and leashing in the other mobs.

Just because you wouldn't use something, doesn't mean others wouldn't too.

There’s always one. ☝️

Better Sun Shield A

Better Sun Shield B

Better Sun Shield C

Better Sun Shield D

Best part about it is, they are all available to EVERYONE, regardless of your class!

You say that Templars have been lacking in mitigation on mob pulls, Radiant Ward is and has been ONLY good when getting slammed by groups of mobs, and Minor Maim is already sourced in all organized groups, that change does not move the needle.

What are you actually talking about?

Templar tanks have been lacking a health based burst heal, an in-class pull, and any form of offensive group buff outside of the overridden Minor Sorcery by a much more common Minor Brutality found on a class that gives groupwide Major versions of that buff, among the damage increase from Stone Fist.



Eat up those Templar changes though, the game is clearly moving in a direction for you.

Theist_VII

You want to talk about making Templar tank an actual option…

• Give 5m range Sun Shield an AoE Major Courage or Major Heroism, instantly Templar would become a viable option in organized play.

Want to make tanking not feel as though you’re pulling teeth while also balancing PvP?

• Reduce the tick frequency of Living Dark and have the skill once again scale off of Max Health.

Ready for the finishing touch?

• Instead of adding a taunt to both morphs of Charge, make one a pull that sets a target off-balance if they were casting while still granting the user Major Protection.

It’s that simple, I just fixed Templar tanks in not even a minute of thought, yet it’s been a decade and Zenimax continues to do nothing, actually?

Worse than nothing

STOP PRETENDING TO CARE ABOUT US!

Skulptro

@Theist_VII no matter what we do, how many posts we left here. Or in other threads. No any responce. Not even a glance. JUST NOTHING.

Please, devs, if you will read that, leave any reply, just anything.

DrSlaughtr

GraysontheGray wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

monkidb16_ESO wrote: »

Seems like they went with the sneak-like approach.

I still think the changes don't address the correct issues, but at least Cloak isn't entirely gutted anymore, so thanks for that.

PTS is still offline, so it is hard to tell for sure, but When I think about it... it kinda feels like it won't help much and won't address the numerous issues that were raised. If it will cost half per 2 seconds when stationary but mag recovery will be on when stationary, it means that it will still require at least 1500+ mag recovery to slowly regenerate. Bu then again, we have "transitioning" to crouch stealth or invisibility potions or vamp invisibility passive... and on top skill like equilibrium so it will be still possible to stay invisible for a very long time, but managing cloak will be way harder than on live. So again, I do have a strong feeling that the result will be the opposite of the goal.

If they are trying to mimic crouch-stealth, but in a form of a toggle magicka costing ability, then imho they could add different "tiers" of magicka cost. Very cheap like 500 when stationary, more expensive when "walking" and then the current cost when moving normally. And it would actually make perfect logical sense. I mean cloak in TES lore is an illusion spell. Like "chameleon". So it would make sense to base the cost on moving speed somehow. Very cheap, close to nothing if you are stationary, but costs would increase the faster you move. So, if you have troubles maintaining it (example: you are stam build and don't have huge mag recovery, you could still use it, but you would need to move slower or stand still from time to time).

Additionally, I am not sure if it would not be better to play around with magicka recovery % reduction instead of just flat out disabling it. So it could be a mixture of cost per second based on movement speed and magicka recovery % reduction on various types of movement (stand still, walk, normal).

Either way, it seems like they went with a toggle anyway, so I guess it is kinda RIP in Cyro as it most likely will be far to unreliable and will bug out way too often to be usable in lag (Cyro 24/7). Most PvP NBs will probably switch to ranged or bombing. Melee & Brawling will be close to impossible with cloak being a toggle (unless you don't use it, but at that point should be playing stam sorc really).

Also, this is week 3, and most likely this is the final version (it usually is).

1500+ mag recovery is possible with no investment other than khajiit race and 1 piece of light armor. Infinite invisibility was possible before this change and will be laughably easy if this goes live. Awful change that I can’t wait to abuse.

I have a little over 1.5k recovery with Khajiit and 1 light armor piece (construct) and it is only that high because I run one of, if not the most expensive food in the game to do so.

So yes, if I am going to sink all my gold into food, I think I deserve to use it.

And no, you can't be permanently invisible unless you do all that AND run something like Darloc AND sit in a corner without ever using another mag skill. Sounds fun!

ArctosCethlenn

Still need to put the taunt on only one morph of charge not both, as it is you're gonna force everyone who isn't a tank to avoid using the skill.

It's also outshined by most of the taunts available to templar tanks on live, topple/explosive charge are too selfish compared to things like puncture, inner beast, wield soul (pull) and frost clench.

fred4

IMO the Cloak change is change for change's sake.

It won't make the people happy who have disliked Cloak for 10 years and who are looking for a ramping cost increase or wish the skill wasn't available in PvP at all.

It doesn't make me happy either, perma-cloaking magblade that I am. The joy of my build is moving while invisible and moving fast, not sitting still. I've been to the PTS and gone over combinations of sets and skills, including the new Banner. To maintain my current playstyle, I would basically be forced into 2H, give up a skill slot, and still have 3 skills to juggle in Cloak, as before but with less uptime of Major Expedition from Race Against Time.

It seems like ZOS do not want to nerf perma-cloaking outright. Then come out and say so and do nothing, please, cause this isn't making anyone happy. What actual combat balance problem does it fix?

As has been pointed out - I take an above poster's word for that - a Khajiit with Bear Haunch and some light armor, not an unreasonable choice for the pen and crit %, could already sit at break-even point for cloak sustain while sitting still. The bow player who does that will now be invisible instead of merely crouched.

Do not underestimate the opportunity cost of current Cloak. If you want to maintain Cloak as you maneuver, waiting for the right moment to strike, you have to cast Cloak every 3s. That is 1s out of 3 where you are busy, not ready to pounce. The same if you were crouching, but you want to avail of the guaranteed crit from Shadowy Disguise. This will now always be available. In other words, I see the current (PTS week 3) iteration of Cloak as a buff to ganking, particularly bow ganking.

The overall result of this change will be mixed. A buff to some nightblades, namely gankers and bombers, the latter of which should also benefit from being better able to pick their moment, a nerf to some magblades such as myself, even if we can largely work around it, and much ado about nothing for brawlerblades who only use the skill occasionally.

Then there's new players in both PvE and PvP. This may arguably be the only demographic ZOS are aiming this change at. For them I'm not sure whether the subtle difference between Cloak, in this form, and crouch won't still be learning curve.

This is just simply a miserable change, even for things like traversing a delve and fetching the skyshard. Unless you sacrifice everything for a pure PvE cloak build with specialised sustain tools like Darloc Brae or the Siphoning / Rally combination, you will have to stop and sit every so often. This saps the life out of what Cloak can currently do. You still have to build for it, but you can perma-cloak with a reasonably general build on live. You have more choices, better choices, and Cloak has a more distinct personality as opposed to crouch. Homogenisation strikes again.

Gabriel_H

Theist_VII wrote: »

Best part about it is, they are all available to EVERYONE, regardless of your class!

And they don't trigger Spear Wall, meaning you don't have an on-demand minor protection that Sun Shield gives.

Theist_VII wrote: »

You say that Templars have been lacking in mitigation on mob pulls, Radiant Ward is and has been ONLY good when getting slammed by groups of mobs, and Minor Maim is already sourced in all organized groups, that change does not move the needle.

Erm ... yeah that was my point. Sun Shield was lacking against multiple mobs. It means 1) you don't need to source it elsewhere, and 2) it's extra mitigation when other sources are focused elsewhere - you know like when off-tanking.

Theist_VII wrote: »

Templar tanks have been lacking a health based burst heal, an in-class pull, and any form of offensive group buff outside of the overridden Minor Sorcery by a much more common Minor Brutality found on a class that gives groupwide Major versions of that buff, among the damage increase from Stone Fist.

You know that silly argument you just made scribing skills? Well, there's your pull or you could just use Silver Leash, they are available to everyone (as you said). Offensive group buff also available through scribing.

Theist_VII wrote: »

Eat up those Templar changes though, the game is clearly moving in a direction for you.

The changes coming will mean I can remove 2 skills from my current bars, and replace them with something else that can provide more group support. Any move away from a selfish-type skill to one that provides benefits for the whole group is a positive move, and that's what these changes provide.

I have one character, and desire to only play one character, being a Templar focused mainly on tanking. So thanks, I will eat them up. Nom nom.

Joy_Division

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

Best part about it is, they are all available to EVERYONE, regardless of your class!

And they don't trigger Spear Wall, meaning you don't have an on-demand minor protection that Sun Shield gives.

Theist_VII wrote: »

You say that Templars have been lacking in mitigation on mob pulls, Radiant Ward is and has been ONLY good when getting slammed by groups of mobs, and Minor Maim is already sourced in all organized groups, that change does not move the needle.

Erm ... yeah that was my point. Sun Shield was lacking against multiple mobs. It means 1) you don't need to source it elsewhere, and 2) it's extra mitigation when other sources are focused elsewhere - you know like when off-tanking.

Theist_VII wrote: »

Templar tanks have been lacking a health based burst heal, an in-class pull, and any form of offensive group buff outside of the overridden Minor Sorcery by a much more common Minor Brutality found on a class that gives groupwide Major versions of that buff, among the damage increase from Stone Fist.

You know that silly argument you just made scribing skills? Well, there's your pull or you could just use Silver Leash, they are available to everyone (as you said). Offensive group buff also available through scribing.

Theist_VII wrote: »

Eat up those Templar changes though, the game is clearly moving in a direction for you.

The changes coming will mean I can remove 2 skills from my current bars, and replace them with something else that can provide more group support. Any move away from a selfish-type skill to one that provides benefits for the whole group is a positive move, and that's what these changes provide.

I have one character, and desire to only play one character, being a Templar focused mainly on tanking. So thanks, I will eat them up. Nom nom.

That you only have one character and the desire to play only one character in one particular way suggests you do not have experience on how the capabilities of other classes stack up relative to Templars. In isolation, sure, the Ward and Charge skills may help your build function a little more effectively.

The problem though when it comes to MMOs with character customization, balance is always dependent on how things are compared to what else is possible with other players, not to mention other formats/game systems. From this wider perspective, these changes are not moving the needle for Templar tanks (or templars in general).