Hardened Ward... Where player based skill can go from C-tier to S+-tier

Pelanora · July 6

Thanks @StaticWave That's super interesting. 😀

Have you dropped ulfids?

Bushido2513 · July 6

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

@Bushido2513 Who do I have to talk to about joining the SWDF ?

That is to say; The Sorcerors Ward Defense Force.

I'll throw ZOS a bone and say I heard membership is included when you purchase the new chapter lol. I didn't actually purchase the latest content but it sounded funny to say

Bushido2513 · July 6

StaticWave wrote: »

@Bushido2513

And what I find most funny about your entire stance from the beginning is that you spent 15+ pages arguing with me when you haven’t even experienced the shield buff yet.

Can you believe that? Arguing with me who did the testing and gave feedback on day 1, and continuing to argue with me for a week after U40 patch went live and hearing from me that people are complaining about sorc on the live server, when you have not experienced what the shield change was like lol. Then several months later when magsorc has been baking and more people are complaining on the forums compared to the first few days of my thread, you still deny and move the goal post.

Let’s face it, magsorc is broken right now and the forums have more people agreeing with that than before. The forums is also a small part of the population disliking magsorc. The majority of players in game don’t like this change because it’s too strong. Even if Zabagad demonstrated a spike in Sorc population in Cyrodiil in U40 and 1st month of U41, you’re still going to dismiss that fact because you have this weird idea of “balancing around zergs”, when ironically you’re a solo PvPer.

All I see is you don’t want Ward nerfed because it affects you, and you’re using that idea to mask your actual agenda. If you truly didn’t care, you wouldn’t be commenting on every Ward thread and arguing against the ppl who want Ward nerfed lol.

Why do you say I haven't experienced it yet? Not sure what you mean? I've played the game since the change was made.

You know what I've learned about saying the vocal minority is the majority is that it's not always true. People are always more likely to make a complaint online before they will add thanks. There could be a majority loving ward but even if so it's not likely they would create an account just to say so

I will grant you this, most don't really care for population playing majority same class. Most can agree that's boring.

I can say for me personally that ward staying the same or being reverted wouldn't be a deal breaker. I just think that choice should be made from full analysis of data that only ZOS has

StaticWave · July 6

Here's something else to take a look at too. I was fighting that proc plar on magsorc and he said it was aids to fight a magsorc that kites all the time:

[snip]

So I dropped Streak cause I wanted to see if I could face tank him:

Tanked him for 7 minutes no problem lol

[edited for profanity bypass]

Bushido2513 · July 6

StaticWave wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Ulopi casually tanking 5-6 ppl on magsorc. For a class that’s ranged and has excellent mobility, does it look fair to also have tankiness?

I never understand these kind of comments.

Ulopi did that since U29 or even longer - he is for sure one of the Top 5 on PC/EU. (I'm not able to rank them in a perfect order, but I would guess he is just behind Malcolm as #2)
With that kind of proof you could prove any class OP.

Also I don't exactly get your point. Are you willing to sacrifice class balance just to raise the floor?

The allure of magsorc is its high skill ceiling. You raise the floor and the class becomes a generic tanky class. I get that Ulopi is an outlier but if he does fine without the change then he is fine when it gets nerfed too. He's unaffected basically. What gets affected is low-skilled magsorc who now can't crutch on this skill to stay alive anymore. Isn't that better than having a bunch of tanky wannabe magsorcs?

This comment so represents what you're trying to hold on to and what ZOS seems to be letting go of.

I could be wrong but as I see it the game isn't encouraging skill anymore. Look at the list of changes and see that things have become about making it easier for players to basically play any class and somewhat survive regardless of skill.

I'm not saying I really support the direction but seriously when you look back doesn't it seem like they are about giving out fun choices and things that encourage new players vs encouraging veteran skill levels/building?

Bushido2513 · July 6

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

What is it that makes him so good, @Turtle_Bot? Just super fast reactions?

It's a combination of basically everything:
- Super fast reactions
- Knowledge of the game in general
- Knowledge of all classes, strengths/weaknesses/capabilities etc.
- Awareness
- Target priority
- Decision making
And probably most important, an insane amount of time/practice developing/maintaining those skills (and more).

He also plays very confidently because he has developed those skills.

And I can tell you he won't be able to do the same on stamsorc this patch. I'm a stamsorc main who can do pretty much everything he does, and the moment I swap to magsorc it felt night and day.

Almost all my fights are easier. I can survive combos that I normally wouldn't be able to on stamsorc. I don't need to kite as often unless overwhelmingly outnumbered because I can tank more. I can also just slot Hurricane and get the same mobility as stamsorc. It feels unfair to have a class that is good at almost everything.

This is somewhat how I've felt about NB being able to cloak, have damage, and a good heal. ZOS has continued to double down on that so I'm curious what they will do in regards to Ward.

StaticWave · July 6

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Ulopi casually tanking 5-6 ppl on magsorc. For a class that’s ranged and has excellent mobility, does it look fair to also have tankiness?

I never understand these kind of comments.

Ulopi did that since U29 or even longer - he is for sure one of the Top 5 on PC/EU. (I'm not able to rank them in a perfect order, but I would guess he is just behind Malcolm as #2)
With that kind of proof you could prove any class OP.

Also I don't exactly get your point. Are you willing to sacrifice class balance just to raise the floor?

The allure of magsorc is its high skill ceiling. You raise the floor and the class becomes a generic tanky class. I get that Ulopi is an outlier but if he does fine without the change then he is fine when it gets nerfed too. He's unaffected basically. What gets affected is low-skilled magsorc who now can't crutch on this skill to stay alive anymore. Isn't that better than having a bunch of tanky wannabe magsorcs?

This comment so represents what you're trying to hold on to and what ZOS seems to be letting go of.

I could be wrong but as I see it the game isn't encouraging skill anymore. Look at the list of changes and see that things have become about making it easier for players to basically play any class and somewhat survive regardless of skill.

I'm not saying I really support the direction but seriously when you look back doesn't it seem like they are about giving out fun choices and things that encourage new players vs encouraging veteran skill levels/building?

So instead of opposing the changes ZOS made, you just accept it?

StaticWave · July 6

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

What is it that makes him so good, @Turtle_Bot? Just super fast reactions?

It's a combination of basically everything:
- Super fast reactions
- Knowledge of the game in general
- Knowledge of all classes, strengths/weaknesses/capabilities etc.
- Awareness
- Target priority
- Decision making
And probably most important, an insane amount of time/practice developing/maintaining those skills (and more).

He also plays very confidently because he has developed those skills.

And I can tell you he won't be able to do the same on stamsorc this patch. I'm a stamsorc main who can do pretty much everything he does, and the moment I swap to magsorc it felt night and day.

Almost all my fights are easier. I can survive combos that I normally wouldn't be able to on stamsorc. I don't need to kite as often unless overwhelmingly outnumbered because I can tank more. I can also just slot Hurricane and get the same mobility as stamsorc. It feels unfair to have a class that is good at almost everything.

This is somewhat how I've felt about NB being able to cloak, have damage, and a good heal. ZOS has continued to double down on that so I'm curious what they will do in regards to Ward.

I'd rather deal with a NB meta than Sorc meta lol.

Turtle_Bot · July 6

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

What is it that makes him so good, @Turtle_Bot? Just super fast reactions?

It's a combination of basically everything:
- Super fast reactions
- Knowledge of the game in general
- Knowledge of all classes, strengths/weaknesses/capabilities etc.
- Awareness
- Target priority
- Decision making
And probably most important, an insane amount of time/practice developing/maintaining those skills (and more).

He also plays very confidently because he has developed those skills.

And I can tell you he won't be able to do the same on stamsorc this patch. I'm a stamsorc main who can do pretty much everything he does, and the moment I swap to magsorc it felt night and day.

Almost all my fights are easier. I can survive combos that I normally wouldn't be able to on stamsorc. I don't need to kite as often unless overwhelmingly outnumbered because I can tank more. I can also just slot Hurricane and get the same mobility as stamsorc. It feels unfair to have a class that is good at almost everything.

Not as "easy" as he can on magsorc, but he likely could still do that on stamsorc.

I did say in my previous comment that he did do that to the group I played with back in the elswyr chapter when he was on a NB (the chapter that NB mains continuously cry about the class being completely dead in).

One time that will always stick with me, is back in Elswyr chapter, he solo wiped my entire group (7 of us) on his own, on his NB (a supposedly "dead" class at that time). None of us could get him to half health, let alone get him as close to dying as he got in all of the clips in that video.

So it is definitely not a stretch to see him doing that on stamsorc even though it's not as easy as magsorc if he could do it on NB back before NB got any of it's current defensive tools.

divnyi · July 6

StaticWave wrote: »

Jeez this looks solid asf, didn't know druids can be put on spammable without any cost increase.

Bushido2513 · July 6

StaticWave wrote: »

Here's something else to take a look at too. I was fighting that proc plar on magsorc and he said it was aids to fight a magsorc that kites all the time:

[snip]

So I dropped Streak cause I wanted to see if I could face tank him:

Tanked him for 7 minutes no problem lol

I believe we have all agreed that it's obviously this result in a 1v1. The game also isn't balanced for 1v1 so this is fairly expected.

[edited to remove quote]

Bushido2513 · July 6

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Ulopi casually tanking 5-6 ppl on magsorc. For a class that’s ranged and has excellent mobility, does it look fair to also have tankiness?

I never understand these kind of comments.

Ulopi did that since U29 or even longer - he is for sure one of the Top 5 on PC/EU. (I'm not able to rank them in a perfect order, but I would guess he is just behind Malcolm as #2)
With that kind of proof you could prove any class OP.

Also I don't exactly get your point. Are you willing to sacrifice class balance just to raise the floor?

The allure of magsorc is its high skill ceiling. You raise the floor and the class becomes a generic tanky class. I get that Ulopi is an outlier but if he does fine without the change then he is fine when it gets nerfed too. He's unaffected basically. What gets affected is low-skilled magsorc who now can't crutch on this skill to stay alive anymore. Isn't that better than having a bunch of tanky wannabe magsorcs?

This comment so represents what you're trying to hold on to and what ZOS seems to be letting go of.

I could be wrong but as I see it the game isn't encouraging skill anymore. Look at the list of changes and see that things have become about making it easier for players to basically play any class and somewhat survive regardless of skill.

I'm not saying I really support the direction but seriously when you look back doesn't it seem like they are about giving out fun choices and things that encourage new players vs encouraging veteran skill levels/building?

So instead of opposing the changes ZOS made, you just accept it?

I more so accept that ZOS has shown that they follow their own internal guidance far beyond player input. PTS is just one giant example off the top of my head. I think other than all players cancelling their sub and writing in the reason box, nerf ward, ZOS is just going to make their own choice using their data. Yes of course they or at least ICY reads the forums but as I said I believe they follow their agenda first.

Bushido2513 · July 6

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

What is it that makes him so good, @Turtle_Bot? Just super fast reactions?

It's a combination of basically everything:
- Super fast reactions
- Knowledge of the game in general
- Knowledge of all classes, strengths/weaknesses/capabilities etc.
- Awareness
- Target priority
- Decision making
And probably most important, an insane amount of time/practice developing/maintaining those skills (and more).

He also plays very confidently because he has developed those skills.

And I can tell you he won't be able to do the same on stamsorc this patch. I'm a stamsorc main who can do pretty much everything he does, and the moment I swap to magsorc it felt night and day.

Almost all my fights are easier. I can survive combos that I normally wouldn't be able to on stamsorc. I don't need to kite as often unless overwhelmingly outnumbered because I can tank more. I can also just slot Hurricane and get the same mobility as stamsorc. It feels unfair to have a class that is good at almost everything.

This is somewhat how I've felt about NB being able to cloak, have damage, and a good heal. ZOS has continued to double down on that so I'm curious what they will do in regards to Ward.

I'd rather deal with a NB meta than Sorc meta lol.

Sorc is a annoying and effective at range so you have to chase them. NB is annoying and effective with cloak so you have to look for them but it's at least melee range so not as much guaranteed chasing required. I could certainly understand the annoyance against sorc.

StaticWave · July 6

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

What is it that makes him so good, @Turtle_Bot? Just super fast reactions?

It's a combination of basically everything:
- Super fast reactions
- Knowledge of the game in general
- Knowledge of all classes, strengths/weaknesses/capabilities etc.
- Awareness
- Target priority
- Decision making
And probably most important, an insane amount of time/practice developing/maintaining those skills (and more).

He also plays very confidently because he has developed those skills.

And I can tell you he won't be able to do the same on stamsorc this patch. I'm a stamsorc main who can do pretty much everything he does, and the moment I swap to magsorc it felt night and day.

Almost all my fights are easier. I can survive combos that I normally wouldn't be able to on stamsorc. I don't need to kite as often unless overwhelmingly outnumbered because I can tank more. I can also just slot Hurricane and get the same mobility as stamsorc. It feels unfair to have a class that is good at almost everything.

Not as "easy" as he can on magsorc, but he likely could still do that on stamsorc.

I did say in my previous comment that he did do that to the group I played with back in the elswyr chapter when he was on a NB (the chapter that NB mains continuously cry about the class being completely dead in).

One time that will always stick with me, is back in Elswyr chapter, he solo wiped my entire group (7 of us) on his own, on his NB (a supposedly "dead" class at that time). None of us could get him to half health, let alone get him as close to dying as he got in all of the clips in that video.

So it is definitely not a stretch to see him doing that on stamsorc even though it's not as easy as magsorc if he could do it on NB back before NB got any of it's current defensive tools.

Nah stamsorc was a completely different class. It was really really hard to survive on the class back then and it is still hard to survive on it now unless you go full hybrid or make use of the scribing burst heals. The class just lacks any decent defensive heals and requires good understanding of kiting mechanics. Magsorc was the same, but the floor has been raised now and you don't need to learn how to kite anymore. I doubt Ulopi would want to downgrade to stamsorc when magsorc is much stronger in terms of survivability.

Easiest example for me to compare is by dueling this guy:

I can't survive him on my stamsorc even if I slot Malubeth, but on magsorc I stalemated him after a 10 minute duel. Not even kiting with Streak, just literally tanked him:

If I want to survive him on my stamsorc, I would have to slot 2 extra HoTs and drop my damage. I can never have enough tankiness and damage to kill him with these numbers on stamsorc:

My stat on magsorc was this:

It's really easy to surpass these offensive stats on my stamsorc, but I lack the defensive strength of Ward. Regardless of anyone says, a 15.6k Ward + 7.3k crit burst heal is HUGE. It's worth at least 3 defensive skills imo.

Turtle_Bot · July 6

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

What is it that makes him so good, @Turtle_Bot? Just super fast reactions?

It's a combination of basically everything:
- Super fast reactions
- Knowledge of the game in general
- Knowledge of all classes, strengths/weaknesses/capabilities etc.
- Awareness
- Target priority
- Decision making
And probably most important, an insane amount of time/practice developing/maintaining those skills (and more).

He also plays very confidently because he has developed those skills.

And I can tell you he won't be able to do the same on stamsorc this patch. I'm a stamsorc main who can do pretty much everything he does, and the moment I swap to magsorc it felt night and day.

Almost all my fights are easier. I can survive combos that I normally wouldn't be able to on stamsorc. I don't need to kite as often unless overwhelmingly outnumbered because I can tank more. I can also just slot Hurricane and get the same mobility as stamsorc. It feels unfair to have a class that is good at almost everything.

Not as "easy" as he can on magsorc, but he likely could still do that on stamsorc.

I did say in my previous comment that he did do that to the group I played with back in the elswyr chapter when he was on a NB (the chapter that NB mains continuously cry about the class being completely dead in).

One time that will always stick with me, is back in Elswyr chapter, he solo wiped my entire group (7 of us) on his own, on his NB (a supposedly "dead" class at that time). None of us could get him to half health, let alone get him as close to dying as he got in all of the clips in that video.

So it is definitely not a stretch to see him doing that on stamsorc even though it's not as easy as magsorc if he could do it on NB back before NB got any of it's current defensive tools.

I doubt Ulopi would want to downgrade to stamsorc when magsorc is much stronger in terms of survivability.

This is my point though, I was never saying the he would want to, but that he could if he chose to.

Zabagad · July 6

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

How about first hand experience of someone who has played against him (and more recently on the same alliance as him) for nearly 10 years now?

I can say with certainty that Ulopi has been doing the stuff shown in those clips (and not just on sorc) for years now (and against better players than were in those clips). I have even been on the receiving end of it over the years, countless times.

[...]
In terms of magsorc specifically, I would probably say Malcolm is slightly ahead of Ulopi, but Ulopi plays all classes at that top level, so overall I would probably rate Ulopi higher in terms of overall skill.

TY

TechMaybeHic · July 6

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Here's something else to take a look at too. I was fighting that proc plar on magsorc and he said it was aids to fight a magsorc that kites all the time:

[snip]

So I dropped Streak cause I wanted to see if I could face tank him:

Tanked him for 7 minutes no problem lol

I believe we have all agreed that it's obviously this result in a 1v1. The game also isn't balanced for 1v1 so this is fairly expected.

Whats part of it is balanced if not 1v1. 1v1s happen constantly even in Cyrodiil and BGs. And it's worse than just being a little better. If you come across an equal skilled sorc, it's not just a bit stronger, it's pointless. At least in duels, it's generally frowned on to LOS where the 1v1 in the wild, pretty much anything goes.

Where is it balanced if not 1v1? In large fights where they already were wanted for negates and all that same survivability still stands out over other classes?

Nearly anywhere they go in PvP, if a sorc struggles more than any other class would; they are pretty bad

[edited to remove quote]

Tcholl · July 6

It is pretty obvious that many ppl here is bringing opinions based on evidence to make a point, which is pretty clear to the majority of players that are playing everyday: the ward skill does not compare to any other skills alike and is an issue to PvP. You can check the posts here, on reddit or even look at how many players are playing sorc right now.

Others, which are showing themselves more and more as somenone that must abuse a busted skill to play PvP, are just Knit-picking the posts and arguments to create noise. They are not defending the skill as it is but quoting others trying to downplay their valid comments. Bring your own evidence to support your opinion.

It does not matter if the player in the video has skill or not, also does not matter if 10 or 2 players are needed to kill a sorc, those are only EXAMPLES to ILUSTRATE that this skill has TOO MUCH POTENTIAL and IS NOT ON LINE WITH ANY OTHER SKILL ALIKE IN THE WHOLE GAME, INCLUDING SCRIBING.

Bushido2513 · July 6

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Here's something else to take a look at too. I was fighting that proc plar on magsorc and he said it was aids to fight a magsorc that kites all the time:

[snip]

So I dropped Streak cause I wanted to see if I could face tank him:

Tanked him for 7 minutes no problem lol

I believe we have all agreed that it's obviously this result in a 1v1. The game also isn't balanced for 1v1 so this is fairly expected.

Whats part of it is balanced if not 1v1. 1v1s happen constantly even in Cyrodiil and BGs. And it's worse than just being a little better. If you come across an equal skilled sorc, it's not just a bit stronger, it's pointless. At least in duels, it's generally frowned on to LOS where the 1v1 in the wild, pretty much anything goes.

Where is it balanced if not 1v1? In large fights where they already were wanted for negates and all that same survivability still stands out over other classes?

Nearly anywhere they go in PvP, if a sorc struggles more than any other class would; they are pretty bad

The game balance as a whole is not that great first off. So with that being said I can fairly say game balance is skewed towards PVE and GVG PVP. It's honestly just the easiest and most logical way for ZOS to go with their obviously limited resources.

I think people are just thinking of what they want and not why what they want hasn't happened yet. I'm pretty sure it's not even because ZOS can't fix the problems, it's just easier for them to maintain revenue with less effort if they skew more toward PVE and just let PVP deal with it.

Other people have already proposed great solutions way back when that just never got implemented. Obviously battle spirit needs a more robust ruleset if not pvp and pve being balanced entirely separately. This alone is a possible thing in programing that ZOS has not implemented that would be a big step in fixing a lot of the issues we complain about.

Just ask the question, if it's totally doable and would solve a lot of problems why has ZOS instead chosen to repeatedly make changes that just double down on the existing system rather than fixing it? I think they just balance for the top earner pve and let pve just kind of deal with it while trying to sell new content. Look at the first part of the sentence "A lot of players are playing sorc now.". Now if that sentence were a lot of players are quitting because of sorc, well I think zos would take notice but obviously their data doesn't indicate this so it is what it is.

[edited to remove quote]

xylena_lazarow · July 6

Bushido2513 wrote: »

The game balance as a whole is not that great first off.

So it's already bad, therefore why bother trying to improve it? Still going with that logic?

StaticWave · July 6

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Here's something else to take a look at too. I was fighting that proc plar on magsorc and he said it was aids to fight a magsorc that kites all the time:

[snip]

So I dropped Streak cause I wanted to see if I could face tank him:

Tanked him for 7 minutes no problem lol

I believe we have all agreed that it's obviously this result in a 1v1. The game also isn't balanced for 1v1 so this is fairly expected.

The game isn’t balanced around zerging either if that’s what you’re after, otherwise the countless #nerf cross healing threads would die out.

So my point still stands. You’re a solo PvPer using the argument of balancing around large scale PvP to mask your own agenda. Even more clear when you said something like this in my thread:

“When you fix the healing of other classes then give me a call”.

Clearly the change benefits you and you don’t want it nerfed, plain and simple.

[edited to remove quote]

StaticWave · July 6

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Here's something else to take a look at too. I was fighting that proc plar on magsorc and he said it was aids to fight a magsorc that kites all the time:

[snip]

So I dropped Streak cause I wanted to see if I could face tank him:

Tanked him for 7 minutes no problem lol

I believe we have all agreed that it's obviously this result in a 1v1. The game also isn't balanced for 1v1 so this is fairly expected.

Whats part of it is balanced if not 1v1. 1v1s happen constantly even in Cyrodiil and BGs. And it's worse than just being a little better. If you come across an equal skilled sorc, it's not just a bit stronger, it's pointless. At least in duels, it's generally frowned on to LOS where the 1v1 in the wild, pretty much anything goes.

Where is it balanced if not 1v1? In large fights where they already were wanted for negates and all that same survivability still stands out over other classes?

Nearly anywhere they go in PvP, if a sorc struggles more than any other class would; they are pretty bad

Right, he thinks everyone is just going to follow as a team in BGs and that ppl aren’t going to split up to take objectives or get split up. He thinks every fight in Cyrodiil is this massive 60v60 zerg and not small fights that could occur and result in small 1v1s lol. For a solo PvPer like he claimed I thought it was obvious, unless he’s either lying about it or playing on a platform where the population is so small there are hardly any fights outside of zergs.

Either way, that isn’t grounds for balancing. The game has never been balanced around large scale fights. There are countless threads complaining about the same issue until this day. The game is balanced around raising the floor, and when the floor gets raised too much, we jump in to give feedback.

[edited to remove quote]

Bushido2513 · July 6

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

The game balance as a whole is not that great first off.

So it's already bad, therefore why bother trying to improve it? Still going with that logic?

My logic is those that have the data are best prepared to make the choices and that players of course should chime in but perhaps also consider the overall direction of the game and that focusing on one thing isn't perhaps the best approach.

Bushido2513 · July 6

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Here's something else to take a look at too. I was fighting that proc plar on magsorc and he said it was aids to fight a magsorc that kites all the time:

[snip]

So I dropped Streak cause I wanted to see if I could face tank him:

Tanked him for 7 minutes no problem lol

I believe we have all agreed that it's obviously this result in a 1v1. The game also isn't balanced for 1v1 so this is fairly expected.

The game isn’t balanced around zerging either if that’s what you’re after, otherwise the countless #nerf cross healing threads would die out.

So my point still stands. You’re a solo PvPer using the argument of balancing around large scale PvP to mask your own agenda. Even more clear when you said something like this in my thread:

“When you fix the healing of other classes then give me a call”.

Clearly the change benefits you and you don’t want it nerfed, plain and simple.

So I've said this a few times already but sure I'll give it one more go. This change doesn't really do anything for me. I mean yes it does make me survivable but I was already one of the most survivable sorcs in the game before the change. I haven't even changed my build to take advantage of the change to ward because I don't really care to embrace it. I also just don't mind if others find it to be their cup of tea.

Maybe this is a better way to say it and something simpler that people can latch on to. Due to the overall direction of the game I really don't put too much care into who I can and can't kill. I've had players on all classes that I can't kill and who can't kill me so I'm just ok with that when it happens. I can also kill multiple players with no big issues so for me I'm just in an ok place in the game and this ward change doesn't really bother me or make me happy one way or another.

So I can understand why some don't like ward but that doesn't mean it's also overpowered just because a vocal group doesn't like it. That's why I'm saying let people that can actually effect the game and see game data make those calls. Again I'm not saying don't say anything, please do, but don't act like anything is evidence of something when it's really more your experience of the thing.

[edited to remove quote]

Bushido2513 · July 6

StaticWave wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Here's something else to take a look at too. I was fighting that proc plar on magsorc and he said it was aids to fight a magsorc that kites all the time:

[snip]

So I dropped Streak cause I wanted to see if I could face tank him:

Tanked him for 7 minutes no problem lol

I believe we have all agreed that it's obviously this result in a 1v1. The game also isn't balanced for 1v1 so this is fairly expected.

Whats part of it is balanced if not 1v1. 1v1s happen constantly even in Cyrodiil and BGs. And it's worse than just being a little better. If you come across an equal skilled sorc, it's not just a bit stronger, it's pointless. At least in duels, it's generally frowned on to LOS where the 1v1 in the wild, pretty much anything goes.

Where is it balanced if not 1v1? In large fights where they already were wanted for negates and all that same survivability still stands out over other classes?

Nearly anywhere they go in PvP, if a sorc struggles more than any other class would; they are pretty bad

Right, he thinks everyone is just going to follow as a team in BGs and that ppl aren’t going to split up to take objectives or get split up. He thinks every fight in Cyrodiil is this massive 60v60 zerg and not small fights that could occur and result in small 1v1s lol. For a solo PvPer like he claimed I thought it was obvious, unless he’s either lying about it or playing on a platform where the population is so small there are hardly any fights outside of zergs.

Either way, that isn’t grounds for balancing. The game has never been balanced around large scale fights. There are countless threads complaining about the same issue until this day. The game is balanced around raising the floor, and when the floor gets raised too much, we jump in to give feedback.

So as a solo player I really can speak to this one. I've had wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy more xv1s then I've had fights I can finish as a 1v1. I'm all about the 1v1 that I can stumble upon and finish out, it's actually a great thing to find. But in IC and open world you will more likely run up on a minimum 2 players or if one is solo a nb or two waiting to take advantage.

Again I'm not saying 1v1s don't happen, they do, all the time actually but more often if you're open world it will become an xv1.

Oh and to be clear I don't really count something where 1 person is standing around and you just nuke them in a sec. Yes that's a 1v1 but for me I more so tend to count 1v1s where the opponent is good enough to hold their own and so those tend to take more time and when they do that's when your chances of it turning into an xv1 go up fairly quickly.

I mean even if we just cater by occurrence count are people in here really trying to say that players in a given play session in general will run into more 1v1s then they will gvg ?

If that's what's happening then tell me where the 1v1 server is because I'd be down to get on it. Of course I'm going to be honest and say I've always preferred IC because of the more predatory element and chances of being outnumbers so maybe I'm just not looking in the right places?

[edited to remove quote]

StaticWave · July 6

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Here's something else to take a look at too. I was fighting that proc plar on magsorc and he said it was aids to fight a magsorc that kites all the time:

[snip]

So I dropped Streak cause I wanted to see if I could face tank him:

Tanked him for 7 minutes no problem lol

I believe we have all agreed that it's obviously this result in a 1v1. The game also isn't balanced for 1v1 so this is fairly expected.

The game isn’t balanced around zerging either if that’s what you’re after, otherwise the countless #nerf cross healing threads would die out.

So my point still stands. You’re a solo PvPer using the argument of balancing around large scale PvP to mask your own agenda. Even more clear when you said something like this in my thread:

“When you fix the healing of other classes then give me a call”.

Clearly the change benefits you and you don’t want it nerfed, plain and simple.

So I've said this a few times already but sure I'll give it one more go. This change doesn't really do anything for me. I mean yes it does make me survivable but I was already one of the most survivable sorcs in the game before the change. I haven't even changed my build to take advantage of the change to ward because I don't really care to embrace it. I also just don't mind if others find it to be their cup of tea.

Maybe this is a better way to say it and something simpler that people can latch on to. Due to the overall direction of the game I really don't put too much care into who I can and can't kill. I've had players on all classes that I can't kill and who can't kill me so I'm just ok with that when it happens. I can also kill multiple players with no big issues so for me I'm just in an ok place in the game and this ward change doesn't really bother me or make me happy one way or another.

So I can understand why some don't like ward but that doesn't mean it's also overpowered just because a vocal group doesn't like it. That's why I'm saying let people that can actually effect the game and see game data make those calls. Again I'm not saying don't say anything, please do, but don't act like anything is evidence of something when it's really more your experience of the thing.

[edited to remove quote]

But you do mind. You keep telling everyone the change doesn’t affect you in anyway, but you say things like “other classes have a strong burst heal so why should Sorc not get one”, or “nerf the other class healings first then we can talk” which are subtle indicators that you do want the change to stay.

I’m a stamsorc main and I played without a true burst heal for 5 years. Even when I asked for a burst heal, I asked for it to be less potent compared to other burst heals because the class is just too strong. I asked for Dark Deal to be instant cast with the same non scaling tooltip at a reduced resource return, NOT a 9k tooltip burst heal underneath a 15k Ward in PvP.

I don’t think you are unintentionally ignoring this balance issue. I think you’re jumping hoops trying to justify the change as “needed” because “other classes have it too”. You know what I think is wrong on your part? You’re leaving out the threads asking for nerfs to the changes that those classes have. Corrosive took 2 years to be nerfed and there were multiple threads complaining about it. Concealed Weapon took 6 patches to finally have its 10% damage done buff removed completely. Do you think 2 years is what it should take for a mechanic to be nerfed when it only took at best 2 months to see everything wrong with it? Do you think as players, we shouldn’t give feedback at all because at the end of the say ZOS has the data?

Posts like yours don’t help at all, to be frank. They sound indifferent with a slight hint of favoring one side, and anytime someone proposes a solid piece of counter argument you can always fall back to “ZOS has the data and decides”. It’s almost impossible to discuss with you if I’m being honest.

And quite frankly, I see you leaning more towards the ppl favoring Ward than actually being neutral. Clearly you disregard 1v1s as a metric of balance, when 1v1s is as accurate as you can get to combat balance in this game. Then you use large scale PvP as a metric of balance, but when magsorc is undoubtedly considered by many ppl to be overperforming in Cyrodiil, an environment where large scale battles occur, you still disregard it and instead ask for a bunch of unobtainable data. Why don’t you do the testing yourself then?

Alchimiste1 · July 6

I feel like if you try and provide supporting evidence from duels people say oh the data from 1v1s means nothing because the game isn't centered around 1v1. And if you try and provide supporting evidence from OW gameplay people will say something like there are too many variables to accurately arrive to any conclusion

Can we all just be honest. Magsorc is busted right now. I don't know how that is even arguable. Whether it be for 1v1s or open world. Making an argument such as, " oh ward is only busted on particular setups", doesn't make sense. It is like trying to say yeah magsorc is fair and balanced if they use Juliano's rage and shackle breaker. No one cares about that.

Current magsorc has to press 1 skill for defense and that's all. Its 15k shield with and 8k heal attached to it.

StaticWave · July 6

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Here's something else to take a look at too. I was fighting that proc plar on magsorc and he said it was aids to fight a magsorc that kites all the time:

[snip]

So I dropped Streak cause I wanted to see if I could face tank him:

Tanked him for 7 minutes no problem lol

I believe we have all agreed that it's obviously this result in a 1v1. The game also isn't balanced for 1v1 so this is fairly expected.

Whats part of it is balanced if not 1v1. 1v1s happen constantly even in Cyrodiil and BGs. And it's worse than just being a little better. If you come across an equal skilled sorc, it's not just a bit stronger, it's pointless. At least in duels, it's generally frowned on to LOS where the 1v1 in the wild, pretty much anything goes.

Where is it balanced if not 1v1? In large fights where they already were wanted for negates and all that same survivability still stands out over other classes?

Nearly anywhere they go in PvP, if a sorc struggles more than any other class would; they are pretty bad

Right, he thinks everyone is just going to follow as a team in BGs and that ppl aren’t going to split up to take objectives or get split up. He thinks every fight in Cyrodiil is this massive 60v60 zerg and not small fights that could occur and result in small 1v1s lol. For a solo PvPer like he claimed I thought it was obvious, unless he’s either lying about it or playing on a platform where the population is so small there are hardly any fights outside of zergs.

Either way, that isn’t grounds for balancing. The game has never been balanced around large scale fights. There are countless threads complaining about the same issue until this day. The game is balanced around raising the floor, and when the floor gets raised too much, we jump in to give feedback.

So as a solo player I really can speak to this one. I've had wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy more xv1s then I've had fights I can finish as a 1v1. I'm all about the 1v1 that I can stumble upon and finish out, it's actually a great thing to find. But in IC and open world you will more likely run up on a minimum 2 players or if one is solo a nb or two waiting to take advantage.

Again I'm not saying 1v1s don't happen, they do, all the time actually but more often if you're open world it will become an xv1.

Oh and to be clear I don't really count something where 1 person is standing around and you just nuke them in a sec. Yes that's a 1v1 but for me I more so tend to count 1v1s where the opponent is good enough to hold their own and so those tend to take more time and when they do that's when your chances of it turning into an xv1 go up fairly quickly.

I mean even if we just cater by occurrence count are people in here really trying to say that players in a given play session in general will run into more 1v1s then they will gvg ?

If that's what's happening then tell me where the 1v1 server is because I'd be down to get on it. Of course I'm going to be honest and say I've always preferred IC because of the more predatory element and chances of being outnumbers so maybe I'm just not looking in the right places?

[edited to remove quote]

I also 1vX too and in those 1vXs I have to do several 1v1s. It happens when I kite far enough and someone gets a little too overconfident and gets caught with their pants down. It happens all the time. I’m sure you’re familiar with that scenario if you also do solo PvP.

In fact, unless you’re a in a dedicated AoE build, almost every 1vX is going to be small sequences of 1v1s because the majority of spammables and burst abilities are single target. So I’m not sure where you get this notion that 1v1s don’t occur frequently.

xylena_lazarow · July 6

Bushido2513 wrote: »

My logic is those that have the data

The forum posts we are making do in fact function as data for ZOS, so yes, working as intended.

xylena_lazarow · July 6

StaticWave wrote: »

almost every 1vX is going to be small sequences of 1v1s because the majority of spammables and burst abilities are single target. So I’m not sure where you get this notion that 1v1s don’t occur frequently.

100% true, they obviously get that notion because they've never even come close to winning 1vX.