Maintenance for the week of November 4:
• [COMPLETE] ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – November 6, 9:00AM EST (14:00 UTC) - 6:00PM EST (23:00 UTC)
• [COMPLETE] ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – November 6, 9:00AM EST (14:00 UTC) - 6:00PM EST (23:00 UTC)
Guild trader listings being changed to 14 days??!?
-
GooGa592✭✭✭✭✭
✭If you can't generate in-game gold by selling the free things that you find lying around in the game, then the problem is at your end.
People who know to trade won't have much problem with this change.
I just had to relist an atherial cypher. That is a 3.5-4 million dollar item. These items often do not sell in 14 days due to their high cost/value. So now we have to pay the listing fees twice as often, and those fees don't even go to the guild.
The listing fee is a percentage that applies whether the 3.5 Million is sold as one sale; or across hundreds of smaller sales. We all pay the same rate and ultimately the same amount of fees.
Even if you spend 100000 to list the item before it sells, who cares? You still have 3.4-3.9 million left over. Presumably you found this item, so it cost you nothing to acquire. However, flippers may now have a real problem, as the fee costs will now add to the overall cost.
Everyone who relies on guild traders as their primary source of income in game cares.
The more times a person has to list an item the more they have to pay to sell that item. That means the player makes less gold, especially on big ticket items. With an item like an aetherial cypher that could add up to 200,000-400,000 less take home profit from selling the item. So everyone who sells in guild stores care because it really adds up.
Exactly.
I don't understand why any player would try to justify these changes made to the guild trading listing time being cut in half. The reason given defies logic.7 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Everyone who relies on guild traders as their primary source of income in game cares.
Trading is my main source of income and this change won't affect how I sell at all. If I have an item that is up for a week without selling I take it down and relist at a lower price. The only exception are some furnishings that I may leave up for a couple of weeks, but the bulk of what I sell are crafting mats.PCNA0 -
LaintalAy✭✭✭✭✭If you can't generate in-game gold by selling the free things that you find lying around in the game, then the problem is at your end.
People who know to trade won't have much problem with this change.
I just had to relist an atherial cypher. That is a 3.5-4 million dollar item. These items often do not sell in 14 days due to their high cost/value. So now we have to pay the listing fees twice as often, and those fees don't even go to the guild.
The listing fee is a percentage that applies whether the 3.5 Million is sold as one sale; or across hundreds of smaller sales. We all pay the same rate and ultimately the same amount of fees.
Even if you spend 100000 to list the item before it sells, who cares? You still have 3.4-3.9 million left over. Presumably you found this item, so it cost you nothing to acquire. However, flippers may now have a real problem, as the fee costs will now add to the overall cost.
Everyone who relies on guild traders as their primary source of income in game cares.
The more times a person has to list an item the more they have to pay to sell that item. That means the player makes less gold, especially on big ticket items. With an item like an aetherial cypher that could add up to 200,000-400,000 less take home profit from selling the item. So everyone who sells in guild stores care because it really adds up.
Exactly.
I don't understand why any player would try to justify these changes made to the guild trading listing time being cut in half. The reason given defies logic.
What logic?
Game over, manHudson ~ Aliens ~ 19862 -
FlopsyPrince✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭If you can't generate in-game gold by selling the free things that you find lying around in the game, then the problem is at your end.
People who know to trade won't have much problem with this change.
I just had to relist an atherial cypher. That is a 3.5-4 million dollar item. These items often do not sell in 14 days due to their high cost/value. So now we have to pay the listing fees twice as often, and those fees don't even go to the guild.
The listing fee is a percentage that applies whether the 3.5 Million is sold as one sale; or across hundreds of smaller sales. We all pay the same rate and ultimately the same amount of fees.
Even if you spend 100000 to list the item before it sells, who cares? You still have 3.4-3.9 million left over. Presumably you found this item, so it cost you nothing to acquire. However, flippers may now have a real problem, as the fee costs will now add to the overall cost.
Everyone who relies on guild traders as their primary source of income in game cares.
The more times a person has to list an item the more they have to pay to sell that item. That means the player makes less gold, especially on big ticket items. With an item like an aetherial cypher that could add up to 200,000-400,000 less take home profit from selling the item. So everyone who sells in guild stores care because it really adds up.
An item's true value is what it sells for on the day.
Prior to that, it's all speculation.
If I find an item, it cost me nothing. If after selling it, I have 3M gold, then I fail to see how this is a problem.
If everyone in ESO agrees that Aetheric Cipher is "worth 3 - 3.5 million"; then If I place the one I found up for sale at 2Million,
what is the most likely outcome? This:- It WILL be sold within a period of six hours or so.
- I will have 2M gold that I didn't have 6 hours before.
- Proof that Aethric Cipher is actually only worth 2M gold.
It's that simple. If you choose to relist an incorrectly priced item multiple times at the same fantasy price, then this is not 'sales' but 'gambling', as in: I'll wager another 3.5% listing fee that I can sell this thing FOR WHAT I WANT; and not what it's really worth.
This is foolish.
Some things do not sell quickly no matter what they are priced at. Well, they will sell quickly if they are massively underpriced, to a flipper, but not to someone who wants one to use.
Having a chance to get something worth "a lot" is part of the motivation of the game, yet you totally discount it.
Yes, some things are overpriced, but some require the right person coming to look for them, a horrid thing in the stupid guild trading system we must work with. Making it more costly is foolish.PC
PS4/PS55 -
dkblight✭✭✭If you can't generate in-game gold by selling the free things that you find lying around in the game, then the problem is at your end.
People who know to trade won't have much problem with this change.
I just had to relist an atherial cypher. That is a 3.5-4 million dollar item. These items often do not sell in 14 days due to their high cost/value. So now we have to pay the listing fees twice as often, and those fees don't even go to the guild.
The listing fee is a percentage that applies whether the 3.5 Million is sold as one sale; or across hundreds of smaller sales. We all pay the same rate and ultimately the same amount of fees.
Even if you spend 100000 to list the item before it sells, who cares? You still have 3.4-3.9 million left over. Presumably you found this item, so it cost you nothing to acquire. However, flippers may now have a real problem, as the fee costs will now add to the overall cost.
Everyone who relies on guild traders as their primary source of income in game cares.
The more times a person has to list an item the more they have to pay to sell that item. That means the player makes less gold, especially on big ticket items. With an item like an aetherial cypher that could add up to 200,000-400,000 less take home profit from selling the item. So everyone who sells in guild stores care because it really adds up.
An item's true value is what it sells for on the day.
Prior to that, it's all speculation.
If I find an item, it cost me nothing. If after selling it, I have 3M gold, then I fail to see how this is a problem.
If everyone in ESO agrees that Aetheric Cipher is "worth 3 - 3.5 million"; then If I place the one I found up for sale at 2Million,
what is the most likely outcome? This:- It WILL be sold within a period of six hours or so.
- I will have 2M gold that I didn't have 6 hours before.
- Proof that Aethric Cipher is actually only worth 2M gold.
It's that simple. If you choose to relist an incorrectly priced item multiple times at the same fantasy price, then this is not 'sales' but 'gambling', as in: I'll wager another 3.5% listing fee that I can sell this thing FOR WHAT I WANT; and not what it's really worth.
[Snip]
Here, let us set a pov that is different, to determine why it is flawed.
Let us replace the "Aetheric Cipher" with yourself.
Other people like yourself with similar experience and skills want to make 30hr at the lowest to do a job. You tell a job you're willing to work for half or 15hr as you need work/money fast.
What is the outcome by your logic?
[*] You will most certainly land the job.
[*] You will work the same amount of hours and preform the same skills for half the pay cost than your peers, but you are getting money you needed right away.
[*] Proof that you are actually only worth 15 an hr.
The point I'm making is you are devaluing the system of trade that has been around since mankind found items/creatures to represent value for trade.
There are factors that go into value:
Difficulty in getting the item
How many are actually trying to get said item
Rarity of said item
Likelihood item will surface
RNG is quite annoying in certain aspects. Take the recent Baron Mask drop
One, you need the DLC/Expansion Some players don't have real money to put toward buying the expansions/DLC
Two, you must do it in Vet, many casual players can barely do normal
Three, rng is minuit in Vet, so one must do HM for a slight increase. Many players struggle through vet let alone HM
Four, even with HM, the vet run rng is horrid, some get it in 3 runs, some don't get it in 30 runs.
Five, the event has a limited time frame that won't be available for at least 2 years.
Six, this particular mask set, is by far the coolest monster set, thus it is high sought after,
These factors raise the value and it will climb over the next 1.5 years. Now is it worth 150mil? NO, but I'm sure it will one day sell for 50mil. Because it was difficult to get due to availability to get it, skill and time to have a chance at getting it, and demand for said item. People right now are saving their money to buy someone's 9-10mil page.
Supply and demand, look it up, countless books about it and plenty of real world examples.
If you want to devalue yourself and efforts by selling something for 2mil valued at 9 mil, by all means, but don't act like your logic is sound as if everyone in the world wants to make less money.
I mean really, I'd buy a Tesla car for 10k if someone wanted to legit sell one for 10k, that does not make a Tesla car worth 10k.
[Edited for bashing]Edited by ZOS_Volpe on June 12, 2024 1:32PM1 -
SaffronCitrusflower✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭If you can't generate in-game gold by selling the free things that you find lying around in the game, then the problem is at your end.
People who know to trade won't have much problem with this change.
I just had to relist an atherial cypher. That is a 3.5-4 million dollar item. These items often do not sell in 14 days due to their high cost/value. So now we have to pay the listing fees twice as often, and those fees don't even go to the guild.
The listing fee is a percentage that applies whether the 3.5 Million is sold as one sale; or across hundreds of smaller sales. We all pay the same rate and ultimately the same amount of fees.
Even if you spend 100000 to list the item before it sells, who cares? You still have 3.4-3.9 million left over. Presumably you found this item, so it cost you nothing to acquire. However, flippers may now have a real problem, as the fee costs will now add to the overall cost.
Everyone who relies on guild traders as their primary source of income in game cares.
The more times a person has to list an item the more they have to pay to sell that item. That means the player makes less gold, especially on big ticket items. With an item like an aetherial cypher that could add up to 200,000-400,000 less take home profit from selling the item. So everyone who sells in guild stores care because it really adds up.
Exactly.
I don't understand why any player would try to justify these changes made to the guild trading listing time being cut in half. The reason given defies logic.
What logic?
Exactly. There is no logic to the claim that reducing the the item listing duration to 14 days will reduce server stress.SilverBride wrote: »Everyone who relies on guild traders as their primary source of income in game cares.
Trading is my main source of income and this change won't affect how I sell at all. If I have an item that is up for a week without selling I take it down and relist at a lower price. The only exception are some furnishings that I may leave up for a couple of weeks, but the bulk of what I sell are crafting mats.
The reduction in listing duration will effect everyone, but it will effect those that rarely if ever sell big ticket items much less.4 -
LaintalAy✭✭✭✭✭FlopsyPrince wrote: »snip
This is foolish.
Some things do not sell quickly no matter what they are priced at. Well, they will sell quickly if they are massively underpriced, to a flipper, but not to someone who wants one to use.
Having a chance to get something worth "a lot" is part of the motivation of the game, yet you totally discount it.
Yes, some things are overpriced, but some require the right person coming to look for them, a horrid thing in the stupid guild trading system we must work with. Making it more costly is foolish.
Some things do not sell quickly no matter what they are priced at. Well, they will sell quickly if they are massively underpriced, to a flipper, but not to someone who wants one to use.
You can't ever be sure that the final purchaser is a flipper. But again, who cares? If YOU found it rather than bought it, then everything you receive in the sale email is pure profit. Getting 2 million for an instant sale; rather than 4 million for a sale that takes six months still puts 2 million into your bank...for something that you found and therefore cost you nothing. If something takes 6 months to sell, well even before this change, that's six re-listing fees...
Flipping big ticket items is a gamble that only really knowledgeable players should consider. Profitable flippers are more likely to go after stuff like platinum dust.
Having a chance to get something worth "a lot" is part of the motivation of the game, yet you totally discount it. Yes, for me that item is Aetherial Dust. So, I don't 'totally' discount the idea. I get it regularly every 2-3months. I sell these on, because they are nice boost to funds. I apply the current sales price from ATT. I considered learning the recipe for the ambrosia, but that's a huge investment. Selling the ambrosia isn't as profitable as it seems and I have no personal use for it...
The point here is that, these super-rare items are supposed to be a surprise, not a farming objective. My advice is that you find the price that the last one sold for, drop it slightly to sell it fast. Then move on to something else.
the stupid guild trading system we must work with
The default guild trader system in it's most basic form works well enough. Whatever problems you experience are actually introduced and supported by players. Every weekend, I see comments like "how do I donate to stop me being kicked". Players shouldn't allow themselves to be bullied in this way.
This is foolish.
The real foolishness is allowing your decisions to be driven by 'market perceptions' about an objects 'value' and what you might get for it at some point in the future. Focus on what you can get now and move on, that's my advice.
Game over, manHudson ~ Aliens ~ 19863 -
LaintalAy✭✭✭✭✭snip
[Snip]
Here, let us set a pov that is different, to determine why it is flawed.
Let us replace the "Aetheric Cipher" with yourself.
Other people like yourself with similar experience and skills want to make 30hr at the lowest to do a job. You tell a job you're willing to work for half or 15hr as you need work/money fast.
What is the outcome by your logic?
[*] You will most certainly land the job.
[*] You will work the same amount of hours and preform the same skills for half the pay cost than your peers, but you are getting money you needed right away.
[*] Proof that you are actually only worth 15 an hr.
The point I'm making is you are devaluing the system of trade that has been around since mankind found items/creatures to represent value for trade.
There are factors that go into value:
Difficulty in getting the item
How many are actually trying to get said item
Rarity of said item
Likelihood item will surface
RNG is quite annoying in certain aspects. Take the recent Baron Mask drop
One, you need the DLC/Expansion Some players don't have real money to put toward buying the expansions/DLC
Two, you must do it in Vet, many casual players can barely do normal
Three, rng is minuit in Vet, so one must do HM for a slight increase. Many players struggle through vet let alone HM
Four, even with HM, the vet run rng is horrid, some get it in 3 runs, some don't get it in 30 runs.
Five, the event has a limited time frame that won't be available for at least 2 years.
Six, this particular mask set, is by far the coolest monster set, thus it is high sought after,
These factors raise the value and it will climb over the next 1.5 years. Now is it worth 150mil? NO, but I'm sure it will one day sell for 50mil. Because it was difficult to get due to availability to get it, skill and time to have a chance at getting it, and demand for said item. People right now are saving their money to buy someone's 9-10mil page.
Supply and demand, look it up, countless books about it and plenty of real world examples.
If you want to devalue yourself and efforts by selling something for 2mil valued at 9 mil, by all means, but don't act like your logic is sound as if everyone in the world wants to make less money.
I mean really, I'd buy a Tesla car for 10k if someone wanted to legit sell one for 10k, that does not make a Tesla car worth 10k.
The fundamental argument here is about the 'doubling' of listing fees, based on reducing the active sales period from 30 down to 14 days. Therefore, the ideal solution is to sell on the first listing to minimise the selling costs and maximise profit.
But do it your way...
[Edited quote]Edited by ZOS_Volpe on June 12, 2024 1:35PMGame over, manHudson ~ Aliens ~ 19861 -
FlopsyPrince✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭These arguments are completely off target because good pricing information is really hard to find, even on the PC. I have found that even TTC pricing (on the PC) is low many times, as it catches things that sell quickly by flippers.
And it does matter if you are selling to real people vs. flippers. You are not getting what you should in almost all cases if a flipper is buying your product. It may be worth it to you if you just want to sell quickly, but not if you are personally trying to earn the most in the game.PC
PS4/PS51 -
LaintalAy✭✭✭✭✭FlopsyPrince wrote: »These arguments are completely off target because good pricing information is really hard to find, even on the PC. I have found that even TTC pricing (on the PC) is low many times, as it catches things that sell quickly by flippers.
And it does matter if you are selling to real people vs. flippers. You are not getting what you should in almost all cases if a flipper is buying your product. It may be worth it to you if you just want to sell quickly, but not if you are personally trying to earn the most in the game.
TTC is rubbish, rely on it at your peril.
Game over, manHudson ~ Aliens ~ 19862 -
Treeshka✭✭✭✭✭
✭If the real reason is to shrink database, do not think they will revert this change. But if they want to add another small gold sink, let players decide the active listing time. But charge more listing fee if they want longer active listing times.
I could really put Dreugh Wax with three days active listing time it would still sell anyway. But for an expensive Luxury Furnishing piece, i would like a month long active listing.0 -
LaintalAy✭✭✭✭✭If the real reason is to shrink database, do not think they will revert this change. But if they want to add another small gold sink, let players decide the active listing time. But charge more listing fee if they want longer active listing times.
I could really put Dreugh Wax with three days active listing time it would still sell anyway. But for an expensive Luxury Furnishing piece, i would like a month long active listing.
I no longer make furniture.
Some idiot always comes along and sells under the cost of the raw mats and the pricing history is distorted downwards as a result. The volumes are so low that the break-even price can never be recovered.
Then the unsold stuff sits around in an inventory, wasting free space.Game over, manHudson ~ Aliens ~ 19862 -
vsrs_au✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
TTC is fine, you just have to understand where its numbers come from. I find it very useful in setting my listing prices.FlopsyPrince wrote: »These arguments are completely off target because good pricing information is really hard to find, even on the PC. I have found that even TTC pricing (on the PC) is low many times, as it catches things that sell quickly by flippers.
And it does matter if you are selling to real people vs. flippers. You are not getting what you should in almost all cases if a flipper is buying your product. It may be worth it to you if you just want to sell quickly, but not if you are personally trying to earn the most in the game.
TTC is rubbish, rely on it at your peril.PC(Steam) / EU / play from Melbourne, Australia / avg ping 3905 -
ProudMary✭✭✭✭✭
✭FlopsyPrince wrote: »These arguments are completely off target because good pricing information is really hard to find, even on the PC. I have found that even TTC pricing (on the PC) is low many times, as it catches things that sell quickly by flippers.
And it does matter if you are selling to real people vs. flippers. You are not getting what you should in almost all cases if a flipper is buying your product. It may be worth it to you if you just want to sell quickly, but not if you are personally trying to earn the most in the game.
TTC is rubbish, rely on it at your peril.
What source for information on prices for items do you suggest we rely upon?3 -
ProudMary✭✭✭✭✭
✭If the real reason is to shrink database, do not think they will revert this change. But if they want to add another small gold sink, let players decide the active listing time. But charge more listing fee if they want longer active listing times.
I could really put Dreugh Wax with three days active listing time it would still sell anyway. But for an expensive Luxury Furnishing piece, i would like a month long active listing.
I no longer make furniture.
Some idiot always comes along and sells under the cost of the raw mats and the pricing history is distorted downwards as a result. The volumes are so low that the break-even price can never be recovered.
Then the unsold stuff sits around in an inventory, wasting free space.
But isn't this exactly what you were suggesting we all do in an earlier post defending the 14 day duration on listings? The post wasn't in reference to furniture or crafted items, but you did say to, essentially, list items for half their worth and they will sell.4 -
ProudMary✭✭✭✭✭
✭.Yamenstein wrote: »allochthons wrote: »From this comment:Hello, All. We have received a lot of feedback regarding the changes to the Mail expiration timers on the PTS. We understand the concerns raised around shortening Mail timers, specifically in instances where a player may need to step away from the game for an extended period of time, and that with this shortened window they may miss items or gold coming from Guild Traders through the Mail.
As we reviewed this feedback and investigated those concerns, our data revealed that the vast majority of items listed at Guild Traders sell within a week. If an item does not sell by then, it typically doesn't sell during that listing period. In light of this, Guild Trader listings will now be reduced from 30 to 14 days. All Mail expiration timers will remain at 14 days. To be clear, the timer for Mail expiration will be 14 days from when the item sells or is returned to the player. A Guild Trader listing will expire 14 days from when an item is listed. This will affect all new Mail items and Guild Trader listings from U42 launch onward.
We understand that this may not be the news some of you were hoping to hear, and want to provide context for this decision. Based on the data of how quickly items typically sell, the team felt that 30 days for Guild Trader listings was unnecessarily long, and reducing the Mail expiration timers and the Guild Trader listings will allow for improvements in server performance by reducing strain on the database.
If you plan on being away from the game for an extended period, we recommend taking those personal plans into account when making decisions regarding Guild Trader listings.
We hope this information has been insightful, and as always, you are welcome to leave additional feedback in the PTS section of the Forums.
Here is a better idea. Improve your database with better storage and compute resources.
Improve your underlying infrastructure and tech stack.
Next change - reduce inventory and bank space.
Data analytics show that majority of players tend to scrap/dismantle/bank items before they reach 200 inventory capacity. Due to this we have reduced inventory space to 200. It allows for improvements in server performance by reducing strain in the database.
This situation of too much bloat from materials and items is ZOS' own creation. How many different materials for all the different crafts are truly unnecessary? Just think how many different provisioning ingredients there are alone. Add to that all the different trait stones. Add to that all the different levels of metals, woods and clothing materials.
ZOS created this bloat. Now they are restricting our mail and guild store usage as a result.
Instead of making us pay the price for what is fundamentally bad design, most likely done on purpose to encourage eso+ subs, ZOS should look at reducing some of these excess materials from the game.
100%
If the problem is too much database bloat, then scale back on all the excess materials that are almost never used.4 -
katanagirl1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Some of the posts on here make it sound like players who farm and find things should list at ridiculously low prices because they don’t deserve to make gold, but flippers somehow are justified in making profit. Very confusing.
Khajiit Stamblade main
Dark Elf Magsorc
Redguard Stamina Dragonknight
Orc Stamplar PVP
Breton Magsorc PVP
Dark Elf Magden
Khajiit Stamblade
Khajiit Stamina Arcanist
PS5 NA6 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭FlopsyPrince wrote: »Collecting mail should be made easier to help in this area. It is a pain on console to collect all the stock emails.
Let me have (on console) something like the PC addon I use to automatically collect all the regular mails.
the gold road mail updates do make collecting mails a lot easier (and will for console come next monday)
for system mails (which like hireling mails) fall under there is a button to auto claim and delete all mails in the category in 1 swoop
im not sure why, but the guild sales from a trader go through "system alerts" mail which does not also work with the auto claim, but they did include a checkbox to remove the delete mail dialog, so you can claim and delete a mail in 1 action instead of multipleplays PC/NA
handle @Necrotech_Master
active player since april 2014
i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them
feel free to stop by and use the facilities0 -
DenverRalphy✭✭✭✭✭
✭The argument that items should be listed lower to account for the shorter list term is ludicrous. That basically makes the change to the list time a mechanic to lower prices on the traders. And Zos has made it very clear in the past that the economy is player driven, and not to be influenced by Zos itself.
I don't know why they actually made the change, but the stated reason doesn't hold water. Because the change will increase the number of database transactions, not lower them. And it has nothing to do with Database Bloat. Every account has 150 guild trader slots (based on each account able to be in 5 guilds). Whether those slots hold an item, or are empty, it doesn't matter because each slot still holds the same amount of storage/memory regardless if the value of the slot is zero or greater than zero.
The only people that would argue that the solution is to list items at a lower price for a faster sale, are players that aren't happy with the current economy. But the state of the economy and any opinions on it, are a completely separate issue that would be better served in a thread of it's own, with a topic pertinent to that discussion.
Edited by DenverRalphy on June 11, 2024 8:48PM4 -
wolfie1.0.✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭DenverRalphy wrote: »The argument that items should be listed lower to account for the shorter list term is ludicrous. That basically makes the change to the list time a mechanic to lower prices on the traders. And Zos has made it very clear in the past that the economy is player driven, and not to be influenced by Zos itself.
I don't know why they actually made the change, but the stated reason doesn't hold water. Because the change will increase the number of database transactions, not lower them. And it has nothing to do with Database Bloat. Every account has 150 guild trader slots (based on each account able to be in 5 guilds). Whether those slots hold an item, or are empty, it doesn't matter because each slot still holds the same amount of storage/memory regardless if the value of the slot is zero or greater than zero.
The only people that would argue that the solution is to list items at a lower price for a faster sale, are players that aren't happy with the current economy. But the state of the economy and any opinions on it, are a completely separate issue that would be better served in a thread of it's own, with a topic pertinent to that discussion.
Humans are rational beings that often act irrationally. That is the paradox of humanity.
Regardless of whether or not it should have an effect on sales and the economy logically, if enough players think it does then it will. That's how the economy works. Really that's how most of the worlds monetary systems work, at their core anyways things have value based on the belief that it has value, and how that changes is based on the change in perception.
That said, it seems like it could be working. Prices on pc-na appear to be falling on most items.0 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭wolfie1.0. wrote: »That said, it seems like it could be working. Prices on pc-na appear to be falling on most items.
If prices fall but the amount of gold entering the game remains the same, then the economy tanks. Less gold is vanishing into thin air through sales tax, guilds will not be able to afford traders due to depressed sales, and things will have no value because everybody can afford them. The desire to grind for funds decreases, player engagement suffers, leading to less people logging in. Which means less items for sale... it's a vicious economic cycle.
RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.1 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭wolfie1.0. wrote: »DenverRalphy wrote: »The argument that items should be listed lower to account for the shorter list term is ludicrous. That basically makes the change to the list time a mechanic to lower prices on the traders. And Zos has made it very clear in the past that the economy is player driven, and not to be influenced by Zos itself.
I don't know why they actually made the change, but the stated reason doesn't hold water. Because the change will increase the number of database transactions, not lower them. And it has nothing to do with Database Bloat. Every account has 150 guild trader slots (based on each account able to be in 5 guilds). Whether those slots hold an item, or are empty, it doesn't matter because each slot still holds the same amount of storage/memory regardless if the value of the slot is zero or greater than zero.
The only people that would argue that the solution is to list items at a lower price for a faster sale, are players that aren't happy with the current economy. But the state of the economy and any opinions on it, are a completely separate issue that would be better served in a thread of it's own, with a topic pertinent to that discussion.
Humans are rational beings that often act irrationally. That is the paradox of humanity.
Regardless of whether or not it should have an effect on sales and the economy logically, if enough players think it does then it will. That's how the economy works. Really that's how most of the worlds monetary systems work, at their core anyways things have value based on the belief that it has value, and how that changes is based on the change in perception.
That said, it seems like it could be working. Prices on pc-na appear to be falling on most items.
i think prices on PC are still a little unstable after the anniversary event, a lot of mats especially are about 30-50% lower than they were pre-anniversary
prices of other items, such as furnishing blueprints, provisioning recipes, and motifs tends to trend downward over time as fewer people need themplays PC/NA
handle @Necrotech_Master
active player since april 2014
i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them
feel free to stop by and use the facilities0 -
h9dlb✭✭✭✭snip
[Snip]
Here, let us set a pov that is different, to determine why it is flawed.
Let us replace the "Aetheric Cipher" with yourself.
Other people like yourself with similar experience and skills want to make 30hr at the lowest to do a job. You tell a job you're willing to work for half or 15hr as you need work/money fast.
What is the outcome by your logic?
[*] You will most certainly land the job.
[*] You will work the same amount of hours and preform the same skills for half the pay cost than your peers, but you are getting money you needed right away.
[*] Proof that you are actually only worth 15 an hr.
The point I'm making is you are devaluing the system of trade that has been around since mankind found items/creatures to represent value for trade.
There are factors that go into value:
Difficulty in getting the item
How many are actually trying to get said item
Rarity of said item
Likelihood item will surface
RNG is quite annoying in certain aspects. Take the recent Baron Mask drop
One, you need the DLC/Expansion Some players don't have real money to put toward buying the expansions/DLC
Two, you must do it in Vet, many casual players can barely do normal
Three, rng is minuit in Vet, so one must do HM for a slight increase. Many players struggle through vet let alone HM
Four, even with HM, the vet run rng is horrid, some get it in 3 runs, some don't get it in 30 runs.
Five, the event has a limited time frame that won't be available for at least 2 years.
Six, this particular mask set, is by far the coolest monster set, thus it is high sought after,
These factors raise the value and it will climb over the next 1.5 years. Now is it worth 150mil? NO, but I'm sure it will one day sell for 50mil. Because it was difficult to get due to availability to get it, skill and time to have a chance at getting it, and demand for said item. People right now are saving their money to buy someone's 9-10mil page.
Supply and demand, look it up, countless books about it and plenty of real world examples.
If you want to devalue yourself and efforts by selling something for 2mil valued at 9 mil, by all means, but don't act like your logic is sound as if everyone in the world wants to make less money.
I mean really, I'd buy a Tesla car for 10k if someone wanted to legit sell one for 10k, that does not make a Tesla car worth 10k.
The fundamental argument here is about the 'doubling' of listing fees, based on reducing the active sales period from 30 down to 14 days. Therefore, the ideal solution is to sell on the first listing to minimise the selling costs and maximise profit.
But do it your way...
You are wrong. No matter what price you list something for , no matter how underpriced compared to market norms, someone will look at the TTC website and ALWAYS undercut you, hence high ticket rare items often don't sell within 14 days.
[Edited quote]Edited by ZOS_Volpe on June 12, 2024 1:36PM1 -
Alinhbo_Tyaka✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I think people are getting caught up in pricing's relationship to listing time. While listing price has an effect I think it is secondary to the real problem with the Guild Trader system. That problem is a buyers have no means of finding the items they are looking for other than stopping by each guild trader to search their inventory. Yes there is the unreliable TTC on PC but nothing for the console world. The result is you can have the lowest price but if no players looking for your item stop at your trader it will sit in there for who knows how long. To make matters worse you might have had the lowest price when you listed but by the time a player stops by it could be the highest cost listed item. The fact is the guild trader system was a nice experiment but it has many problems that prevent quick sales with more impact than item pricing.2 -
LaintalAy✭✭✭✭✭If the real reason is to shrink database, do not think they will revert this change. But if they want to add another small gold sink, let players decide the active listing time. But charge more listing fee if they want longer active listing times.
I could really put Dreugh Wax with three days active listing time it would still sell anyway. But for an expensive Luxury Furnishing piece, i would like a month long active listing.
I no longer make furniture.
Some idiot always comes along and sells under the cost of the raw mats and the pricing history is distorted downwards as a result. The volumes are so low that the break-even price can never be recovered.
Then the unsold stuff sits around in an inventory, wasting free space.
But isn't this exactly what you were suggesting we all do in an earlier post defending the 14 day duration on listings? The post wasn't in reference to furniture or crafted items, but you did say to, essentially, list items for half their worth and they will sell.
Making furniture to sell to others did not work for me. I already explained the reasons.
I have done the multiple-month listing thing and on some items that worked, but by then I didn't recover any of the costsFlopsyPrince wrote: »These arguments are completely off target because good pricing information is really hard to find, even on the PC. I have found that even TTC pricing (on the PC) is low many times, as it catches things that sell quickly by flippers.
And it does matter if you are selling to real people vs. flippers. You are not getting what you should in almost all cases if a flipper is buying your product. It may be worth it to you if you just want to sell quickly, but not if you are personally trying to earn the most in the game.
TTC is rubbish, rely on it at your peril.
What source for information on prices for items do you suggest we rely upon?
I use Arkadius Trade Tools.
That doesn't require me to leave personal information on a foreign website.Game over, manHudson ~ Aliens ~ 19860 -
LaintalAy✭✭✭✭✭If the real reason is to shrink database, do not think they will revert this change. But if they want to add another small gold sink, let players decide the active listing time. But charge more listing fee if they want longer active listing times.
I could really put Dreugh Wax with three days active listing time it would still sell anyway. But for an expensive Luxury Furnishing piece, i would like a month long active listing.
I no longer make furniture.
Some idiot always comes along and sells under the cost of the raw mats and the pricing history is distorted downwards as a result. The volumes are so low that the break-even price can never be recovered.
Then the unsold stuff sits around in an inventory, wasting free space.
But isn't this exactly what you were suggesting we all do in an earlier post defending the 14 day duration on listings? The post wasn't in reference to furniture or crafted items, but you did say to, essentially, list items for half their worth and they will sell.
Not exactly, no. Furniture making and selling is lesson I learned the hard way. It is a cost to make and then it's a slow hard slog to sell it. ZOS have included ridiculous amounts of mats to make it expensive to make, when selling the raw mats would be more effective. I think they'd rather you bought off the Golden Furn NPC.
And NO. I did NOT say cut your prices in half. Please go back and read what said.
Game over, manHudson ~ Aliens ~ 19860 -
LaintalAy✭✭✭✭✭katanagirl1 wrote: »Some of the posts on here make it sound like players who farm and find things should list at ridiculously low prices because they don’t deserve to make gold, but flippers somehow are justified in making profit. Very confusing.
No one said anything about flippers being justified in making a profit.
Please quote what you are referring to here.Game over, manHudson ~ Aliens ~ 19860 -
LaintalAy✭✭✭✭✭
The guild trader listing time is part of the economy. ZOS are changing it. Those two things are facts.DenverRalphy wrote: »snip
And Zos has made it very clear in the past that the economy is player driven, and not to be influenced by Zos itself.
snip
Or, do please correct me if either of those two things isn't a fact. But that's how it looks to me.
Game over, manHudson ~ Aliens ~ 19860 -
DenverRalphy✭✭✭✭✭
✭
The guild trader listing time is part of the economy. ZOS are changing it. Those two things are facts.DenverRalphy wrote: »snip
And Zos has made it very clear in the past that the economy is player driven, and not to be influenced by Zos itself.
snip
Or, do please correct me if either of those two things isn't a fact. But that's how it looks to me.
Yes, the fees for listing and the subsequent change in listing times does impact the player driven economy. Hence the uproar. If the solution to avoid increased listing fees for long term items is to drastically cut the list prices, then that runs against Zos' stance that the economy must be player driven. Which is exactly why it can't be the solution. There needs to be either a reduction in listing fees, or the listing time needs to be reinstated to its original term. Otherwise it's just punishing a subset of players who, like it or not, significantly influence the game.
Edited by DenverRalphy on June 11, 2024 11:26PM2 -
wolfie1.0.✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭snip
Your logic is flawed horridly
Here, let us set a pov that is different, to determine why it is flawed.
Let us replace the "Aetheric Cipher" with yourself.
Other people like yourself with similar experience and skills want to make 30hr at the lowest to do a job. You tell a job you're willing to work for half or 15hr as you need work/money fast.
What is the outcome by your logic?
[*] You will most certainly land the job.
[*] You will work the same amount of hours and preform the same skills for half the pay cost than your peers, but you are getting money you needed right away.
[*] Proof that you are actually only worth 15 an hr.
The point I'm making is you are devaluing the system of trade that has been around since mankind found items/creatures to represent value for trade.
There are factors that go into value:
Difficulty in getting the item
How many are actually trying to get said item
Rarity of said item
Likelihood item will surface
RNG is quite annoying in certain aspects. Take the recent Baron Mask drop
One, you need the DLC/Expansion Some players don't have real money to put toward buying the expansions/DLC
Two, you must do it in Vet, many casual players can barely do normal
Three, rng is minuit in Vet, so one must do HM for a slight increase. Many players struggle through vet let alone HM
Four, even with HM, the vet run rng is horrid, some get it in 3 runs, some don't get it in 30 runs.
Five, the event has a limited time frame that won't be available for at least 2 years.
Six, this particular mask set, is by far the coolest monster set, thus it is high sought after,
These factors raise the value and it will climb over the next 1.5 years. Now is it worth 150mil? NO, but I'm sure it will one day sell for 50mil. Because it was difficult to get due to availability to get it, skill and time to have a chance at getting it, and demand for said item. People right now are saving their money to buy someone's 9-10mil page.
Supply and demand, look it up, countless books about it and plenty of real world examples.
If you want to devalue yourself and efforts by selling something for 2mil valued at 9 mil, by all means, but don't act like your logic is sound as if everyone in the world wants to make less money.
I mean really, I'd buy a Tesla car for 10k if someone wanted to legit sell one for 10k, that does not make a Tesla car worth 10k.
The fundamental argument here is about the 'doubling' of listing fees, based on reducing the active sales period from 30 down to 14 days. Therefore, the ideal solution is to sell on the first listing to minimise the selling costs and maximise profit.
But do it your way...
You are wrong. No matter what price you list something for , no matter how underpriced compared to market norms, someone will look at the TTC website and ALWAYS undercut you, hence high ticket rare items often don't sell within 14 days.
And someone will always snag the undercut items and relist for a higher amount in an attempt to flip the item at a higher risk.
It's going to happen either way.1