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Columbine prices are getting out of hand.
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Braffin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭PvP players buying tripots for AP? No argument from me. I don't think this is a problem.
So why won't ZOS let me buy AP loot boxes for gold? I don't PvP much anymore, but if I want AP loot boxes, I need to go to Cyro and farm AP.
The last thing I want ZOS to do is directly interfere in the market via price fixing schemes to artificially lower or raise the prices of certain mats, especially when done only to please a certain segment of the player base. This is a very slippery slope and can cause major damage to the game's economy if done haphazardly.
They're already doing this with Chromium Grains and Chromium Platings, and even that is a change which they state was done only after a lot of thinking and much discussion internally due to the large impact it will have on the game's economy with regards to the relative value of JC mats.
Artificial price caps or manipulation of spawn rates will discourage both farmers and sellers, and with Crown gifting disabled, the last thing players need right now is to have yet another sustainable and reliable source of gold income taken away from them.
Agreed.
Compelling players to engage with activities that they do not enjoy is always going to be a source of friction, if they are to 'intervene' in order to reduce friction then do it across the board.
1) They already intervene across the board. Never witnessed one of the countless nerfs to "lower the ceiling and raise the floor" within the last 10 years, so that more players may participate in endgame-content? There isn't a single reason, why they should leave out a single part of the game (namely trading), while "balancing" every other aspect.
2) There is, as said before, a difference between consumables and almost every other item one may buy at a guild trader: While every other item has to be obtained once (think of monster helmets out of vet dungeons for example) to have access to it, consumables enforce a steady and ongoing supply to be used. How would you feel, if your monster helmet were destroyed automatically after a certain amount of time (let's say 100 fights) and has to be farmed again? That's exactly the situation of players, which are in dire need of columbine. There is in fact a difference between a limited grind and an endless one.
Nothing stops a player from engaging on the 'endless grind'. is not limited to some players, is available to all.
My playing day consists on two hours of doing daily writs, picking up surveys and stocking the trader(s) then other stuff can happen.
If a player wants to skip the first couple of hours and focus on the 'other stuff' that's fine too, they just have to be prepared to pay for the privilege of being exempt from the 'endless grind'.
If the described playstyle suits you and you get your fun out of it, that's fine.
Nonetheless a lot of other players (namely PvPers and tanks) currently struggle with playing the game how they want, because a single basic ingredient of the needed potions got dominant above all others due to (halfway-abandoned) hybridization and the following changes to potion-meta.
Last time that happened with corn flowers (around 2017, if I remember correctly) and ZoS reacted by inventing alchemy satchels ti IC vendors. I expect a similar approach this time.
Besides that I don't see, how farming mats or doing daily writs would be affected by this change. Farming would be the very same before, especially if I decide not to interact with the trading system. And daily writs could even yield an alternative solution for the problem at hand, for example by adjusting the amount of columbine given by them.
Sure, the best solution would be an overhaul of the entire alchemy craft, but something like that can't be done quick. Meanwhile our best option is to either make those potions buyable through AP/gold/Tel-Var/EA-currency.
If you think any other of the game's systems would be even affected by this change, then plz show me how, because I don't see it.
Sounds more like "I can't have my things, so you shall not get yours:" tbh.
I do what I have to do to not be dependant on others for supplies.
I am not immune to being cross at the hypocrisy though, of being told when something is available exclusively from activities I loathe that 'I should be grateful for it' and that 'forcing players to engage in all activities is necessary for the health of the game' then threads like this one crop up and the same people go 'except in this case, in this case they should totally make an exception, is only right if they do'.
Either way I am going to step out because this is going nowhere. Ultimately ZOS will do what ZOS will do.
Don't know what you're talking about. At least I for myself don't think people should be forced into content they dislike by tieing gameplaywise relevant rewards to them and never voted for something like that.Edited by Braffin on October 10, 2023 2:26PMNever get between a cat and it's candy!
---
Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. It's not that hard.0 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »PvP players buying tripots for AP? No argument from me. I don't think this is a problem.
So why won't ZOS let me buy AP loot boxes for gold? I don't PvP much anymore, but if I want AP loot boxes, I need to go to Cyro and farm AP.
The last thing I want ZOS to do is directly interfere in the market via price fixing schemes to artificially lower or raise the prices of certain mats, especially when done only to please a certain segment of the player base. This is a very slippery slope and can cause major damage to the game's economy if done haphazardly.
They're already doing this with Chromium Grains and Chromium Platings, and even that is a change which they state was done only after a lot of thinking and much discussion internally due to the large impact it will have on the game's economy with regards to the relative value of JC mats.
Artificial price caps or manipulation of spawn rates will discourage both farmers and sellers, and with Crown gifting disabled, the last thing players need right now is to have yet another sustainable and reliable source of gold income taken away from them.
Agreed.
Compelling players to engage with activities that they do not enjoy is always going to be a source of friction, if they are to 'intervene' in order to reduce friction then do it across the board.
I disagree. There should be great rewards in all content. This incentivizes people to try new things and makes each activity feel fun and rewarding to the people who like it. A natural byproduct of this is that sometimes people will feel compelled to play content they don't enjoy for the sole purpose of getting the reward. When that happens, there are some things that should be taken into consideration about whether or not there should be any intervention, in my opinion.
1) Is the amount of time they'd need to spend reasonable for the difficulty of the content itself?
2) Are the things they want essential to basic gameplay or purely cosmetic?
3) Is incentivizing players in this manner necessary to maintaining the health of the activity?
The tripots have unsatisfactory answers for all three of those questions. Because they are consumable, they can't spend a reasonably short amount of time getting it and then never look back. It's an ongoing process. They are essential to basic gameplay and not merely cosmetic. And their current scarcity is not necessary to maintaining the health of picking mats.
So, they definitely should intervene in this case, imo.
Under that premise at the very least Hakeijo should be made available for gold too.
Quid pro quo.
Those who farm tel var set the price for it and it has gotten out of hand so is nigh time something is done about it (in other words it sells for the highest price people are prepared to pay for it, same as everything else that is tradeable).
Otherwise is just devaluing an activity (engaging on daily writs) just because some people refuse to engage with it.
No, because Hakeijo is necessary to the health of Imperial City. So much so they actually removed it from Wrothgar. Daily writs would still be valuable regardless of Columbine price. Hakeijo is one of the only reasons to bother with IC anymore.
The closest equivalent is the way transmutes used to only be reasonably available to Cyrodiil, and then they added it to the Random Dungeons.
They removed it from Wrothgar because it was never intended to drop from heavy sacks in that zone.
it was a bug and eventually they fixed it. Nothing to do with the economy of any given zone.
That's not accurate.
Bug Fixes and improvements tend to be listed under the same category. But bug fixes are generally marked as "fixed a bug that x" or "fixed Y."
Instead, they announced they were adding Hakeijo to new sources and making IC the only source for Hakeijo. They then noted they removed Hakeijo from Wrothgar. They didn't state fixed a bug, but simply noted it would no longer be a source.Heavy Sacks in the Imperial City Prison and White-Gold Tower dungeons (Normal and Veteran) now have a chance to drop Prismatic Runestones. Prismatic Runestones will not appear in Heavy Sacks that are not in Imperial City or its two Dungeons.
Slightly increased the chance for Prismatic Runestones to drop from Heavy Sacks in Imperial City.Heavy Sacks in Wrothgar will no longer have a chance to drop Prismatic Runestones.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/586882/pts-patch-notes-v7-2-0
They made the move because they specifically wanted Hakeijo runes to be sourced only from IC from that point on.IC also has the gear coffers that can be significantly more profitable than hakeijo.
Hakeijo nevertheless is a critical part of IC's economy. IC is also very clearly not in a healthy spot.Transmutes cannot be traded so is not in any way an equivalent. People still have to farm their own transmutes, and Cyro remains by far the most efficient way to do so, more so if one wants to store transmutes (50 per geode vs 10) because of not having ESO+ for instance (500 limit).
While it's true transmutes cannot be traded, it nevertheless remains they added a reasonable PvE alternative specifically so PvE players wouldn't have to spend an unreasonable amount of time PvPing for a basic gameplay function. This was also a reason for the spell power pots being added to the alliance points system.Edited by spartaxoxo on October 10, 2023 3:05PM1 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭PvP players buying tripots for AP? No argument from me. I don't think this is a problem.
So why won't ZOS let me buy AP loot boxes for gold? I don't PvP much anymore, but if I want AP loot boxes, I need to go to Cyro and farm AP.
The last thing I want ZOS to do is directly interfere in the market via price fixing schemes to artificially lower or raise the prices of certain mats, especially when done only to please a certain segment of the player base. This is a very slippery slope and can cause major damage to the game's economy if done haphazardly.
They're already doing this with Chromium Grains and Chromium Platings, and even that is a change which they state was done only after a lot of thinking and much discussion internally due to the large impact it will have on the game's economy with regards to the relative value of JC mats.
Artificial price caps or manipulation of spawn rates will discourage both farmers and sellers, and with Crown gifting disabled, the last thing players need right now is to have yet another sustainable and reliable source of gold income taken away from them.
Agreed.
Compelling players to engage with activities that they do not enjoy is always going to be a source of friction, if they are to 'intervene' in order to reduce friction then do it across the board.
1) They already intervene across the board. Never witnessed one of the countless nerfs to "lower the ceiling and raise the floor" within the last 10 years, so that more players may participate in endgame-content? There isn't a single reason, why they should leave out a single part of the game (namely trading), while "balancing" every other aspect.
2) There is, as said before, a difference between consumables and almost every other item one may buy at a guild trader: While every other item has to be obtained once (think of monster helmets out of vet dungeons for example) to have access to it, consumables enforce a steady and ongoing supply to be used. How would you feel, if your monster helmet were destroyed automatically after a certain amount of time (let's say 100 fights) and has to be farmed again? That's exactly the situation of players, which are in dire need of columbine. There is in fact a difference between a limited grind and an endless one.
Nothing stops a player from engaging on the 'endless grind'. is not limited to some players, is available to all.
My playing day consists on two hours of doing daily writs, picking up surveys and stocking the trader(s) then other stuff can happen.
If a player wants to skip the first couple of hours and focus on the 'other stuff' that's fine too, they just have to be prepared to pay for the privilege of being exempt from the 'endless grind'.
If the described playstyle suits you and you get your fun out of it, that's fine.
Nonetheless a lot of other players (namely PvPers and tanks) currently struggle with playing the game how they want, because a single basic ingredient of the needed potions got dominant above all others due to (halfway-abandoned) hybridization and the following changes to potion-meta.
Last time that happened with corn flowers (around 2017, if I remember correctly) and ZoS reacted by inventing alchemy satchels ti IC vendors. I expect a similar approach this time.
Besides that I don't see, how farming mats or doing daily writs would be affected by this change. Farming would be the very same before, especially if I decide not to interact with the trading system. And daily writs could even yield an alternative solution for the problem at hand, for example by adjusting the amount of columbine given by them.
Sure, the best solution would be an overhaul of the entire alchemy craft, but something like that can't be done quick. Meanwhile our best option is to either make those potions buyable through AP/gold/Tel-Var/EA-currency.
If you think any other of the game's systems would be even affected by this change, then plz show me how, because I don't see it.
Sounds more like "I can't have my things, so you shall not get yours:" tbh.
I do what I have to do to not be dependant on others for supplies.
I am not immune to being cross at the hypocrisy though, of being told when something is available exclusively from activities I loathe that 'I should be grateful for it' and that 'forcing players to engage in all activities is necessary for the health of the game' then threads like this one crop up and the same people go 'except in this case, in this case they should totally make an exception, is only right if they do'.
Either way I am going to step out because this is going nowhere. Ultimately ZOS will do what ZOS will do.
Don't know what you're talking about. At least I for myself don't think people should be forced into content they dislike by tieing gameplaywise relevant rewards to them and never voted for something like that.
In the post I made about when exceptions should be made, I stated that as a general rule I think all content should have unique things that make the game feel fun and rewarding for the player.
But, I personally think it's a bit of a false equivalency to compare say a mount someone would get from beating vet trials to tripots for resources. One is a basic gameplay item, the other is a cosmetic.
For example, I have recently posted that I think the music box lead should stay in ToT. It's just a cosmetic. But, I still support tripots being added to AP because it's a basic gameplay essential.
So I do have personal criteria I use when I think something should be more broadly available.Edited by spartaxoxo on October 10, 2023 3:31PM0 -
Braffin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »PvP players buying tripots for AP? No argument from me. I don't think this is a problem.
So why won't ZOS let me buy AP loot boxes for gold? I don't PvP much anymore, but if I want AP loot boxes, I need to go to Cyro and farm AP.
The last thing I want ZOS to do is directly interfere in the market via price fixing schemes to artificially lower or raise the prices of certain mats, especially when done only to please a certain segment of the player base. This is a very slippery slope and can cause major damage to the game's economy if done haphazardly.
They're already doing this with Chromium Grains and Chromium Platings, and even that is a change which they state was done only after a lot of thinking and much discussion internally due to the large impact it will have on the game's economy with regards to the relative value of JC mats.
Artificial price caps or manipulation of spawn rates will discourage both farmers and sellers, and with Crown gifting disabled, the last thing players need right now is to have yet another sustainable and reliable source of gold income taken away from them.
Agreed.
Compelling players to engage with activities that they do not enjoy is always going to be a source of friction, if they are to 'intervene' in order to reduce friction then do it across the board.
1) They already intervene across the board. Never witnessed one of the countless nerfs to "lower the ceiling and raise the floor" within the last 10 years, so that more players may participate in endgame-content? There isn't a single reason, why they should leave out a single part of the game (namely trading), while "balancing" every other aspect.
2) There is, as said before, a difference between consumables and almost every other item one may buy at a guild trader: While every other item has to be obtained once (think of monster helmets out of vet dungeons for example) to have access to it, consumables enforce a steady and ongoing supply to be used. How would you feel, if your monster helmet were destroyed automatically after a certain amount of time (let's say 100 fights) and has to be farmed again? That's exactly the situation of players, which are in dire need of columbine. There is in fact a difference between a limited grind and an endless one.
Nothing stops a player from engaging on the 'endless grind'. is not limited to some players, is available to all.
My playing day consists on two hours of doing daily writs, picking up surveys and stocking the trader(s) then other stuff can happen.
If a player wants to skip the first couple of hours and focus on the 'other stuff' that's fine too, they just have to be prepared to pay for the privilege of being exempt from the 'endless grind'.
If the described playstyle suits you and you get your fun out of it, that's fine.
Nonetheless a lot of other players (namely PvPers and tanks) currently struggle with playing the game how they want, because a single basic ingredient of the needed potions got dominant above all others due to (halfway-abandoned) hybridization and the following changes to potion-meta.
Last time that happened with corn flowers (around 2017, if I remember correctly) and ZoS reacted by inventing alchemy satchels ti IC vendors. I expect a similar approach this time.
Besides that I don't see, how farming mats or doing daily writs would be affected by this change. Farming would be the very same before, especially if I decide not to interact with the trading system. And daily writs could even yield an alternative solution for the problem at hand, for example by adjusting the amount of columbine given by them.
Sure, the best solution would be an overhaul of the entire alchemy craft, but something like that can't be done quick. Meanwhile our best option is to either make those potions buyable through AP/gold/Tel-Var/EA-currency.
If you think any other of the game's systems would be even affected by this change, then plz show me how, because I don't see it.
Sounds more like "I can't have my things, so you shall not get yours:" tbh.
I do what I have to do to not be dependant on others for supplies.
I am not immune to being cross at the hypocrisy though, of being told when something is available exclusively from activities I loathe that 'I should be grateful for it' and that 'forcing players to engage in all activities is necessary for the health of the game' then threads like this one crop up and the same people go 'except in this case, in this case they should totally make an exception, is only right if they do'.
Either way I am going to step out because this is going nowhere. Ultimately ZOS will do what ZOS will do.
Don't know what you're talking about. At least I for myself don't think people should be forced into content they dislike by tieing gameplaywise relevant rewards to them and never voted for something like that.
In the post I made about when exceptions should be made, I stated that as a general rule I think all content should unique thing things that make the game feel fun and rewarding for the player.
But, I think it's a bit of a false equivalency to compare say a mount you get from beating vet trials to tripots for resources. One is a basic gameplay item, the other is a cosmetic. I don't subscribe to an extremist belief that everyone should only ever play what they want and can get everything. So, I don't think it's hypocritical to consider what should be broadly available and what is okay as exclusive based off criteria like impacting basic gameplay.
For example, I have recently posted that I think the music box lead should stay in ToT. It's just a cosmetic.
I see, thanks for clarifying.
I agree 100% btw. There is a massive difference between items necessary for gameplay and completely optional cosmetics. The latter may be desireable, but never necessary.
Never get between a cat and it's candy!
---
Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. It's not that hard.0 -
tomofhyrule✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Wow, this thread blew up and went in an... interesting direction.
Look, the issue here isn't the fact that Columbine is expensive. It's that tripots are a lot more onerous than other similar potions, despite being needed by a large potion of the playerbase. It's simply trying to make an equivalence between DPS and their 'standard' potion (the spell or weapon pots) and tanks (whos standard is a tripot).
Yes, we can all farm for mats. But I notice now DPS players now have the option of using AP to get their pots instead. Making them available didn't make Corn Flower the cheapest reagent - it's still 750-900 per. But DPS can get their standard from another source. Tanks however don't get another source of pots. Tanks even have to deal with the fact that, if they do daily writs, they need to stash all their expensive tripots on some days because they're called "Essence of Health," and that's accepted for writs, unlike the "Essence of Spell/Weapon Power" that other roles use.
I wonder if the people who are so against AP tripots are in favor of removing the green/blue alliance pots then? Same idea - a potion used heavily in PvE which means the people using them aren't buying Corn Flower or Blessed Thistle from others.
But instead, we get people saying "yeah, tanks should have the most expensive potions because it's not my problem! Now why are there so many fake tanks in the dungeon queue?"8 -
PapaTankers✭✭✭As a tank tri-pots are a nessecity for me. I don't really want to pay in addition more than I could possibly earn from doing the content.
I'm sure pvp players feel the same way.
Im fine with dishing out bigger gold for high level prog runs and buy herosim pots.
I dont see why it shouldnt be aviable AP.
I think the most effective approach would be adding it aviable for AP and adding tristat recovery for more flowers, but keeping columbine heroism pot exclusive.
In that way you can still keep price of columbine high because they are used in heroism pots and severly lower the price for tripots.
0 -
Tyrant_Tim✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I find it fascinating that anyone would be opposed to an update to the Health/Invisibility/Immovable AP potions that see next-to-no use.
Especially so when people compare style pages, a cosmetic, to a potion that allows you to sustain your gameplay experience.4 -
ApoAlaia✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Tyrant_Tim wrote: »I find it fascinating that anyone would be opposed to an update to the Health/Invisibility/Immovable AP potions that see next-to-no use.
Especially so when people compare style pages, a cosmetic, to a potion that allows you to sustain your gameplay experience.
I find it peculiar that people would consider acquiring cosmetics something detached from the gameplay experience.
I also find it peculiar that people would consider harvesting, engaging in commerce or daily writs detached from the gameplay experience.
Probably that is the crux of the matter: whatever we don't engage on becomes detached, superfluous, ancillary, something that should not in any way factor in or have any bearing on our gameplay experience.
I am not exempt from that, for instance getting one of the chapter rewards locked behind ToT is irksome to me.
However I am not being facetious here, for me acquiring cosmetics IS the gameplay experience.
Engaging in harvesting, commerce and daily writs in an integral part of what enables me to acquire cosmetics by generating wealth that I can use to acquire the ones that are tradeable (because there are not enough hours in the day to acquire all of them by oneself with the unfavourable RNG and the degree of granularity in their implementation) and consumables/sundries that allow me to engage with the content that yields the ones that are soulbound.
Cosmetics might be irrelevant to you, I understand that, but they are definitely not irrelevant to me.
Furthermore, it might be because I'm dense, or narrow minded, but I don't see the difference.
For me is a matter of 'I need to spend time doing x in order to acquire y but I don't want to spend my time on x therefore y should be made available to me by other means that are more amenable to me.'
In principle I don't see an issue with that proposition, is just when the following corollary is added that I start taking issue with it:
'But you, you should definitely have to carry on doing x in order to acquire y, because your y is most definitely not as important as mine. When it comes to your y there are overriding factors that need taking into account. Not my y though, mine is exempt. 'Edited by ApoAlaia on October 11, 2023 9:21AM3 -
Braffin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Tyrant_Tim wrote: »I find it fascinating that anyone would be opposed to an update to the Health/Invisibility/Immovable AP potions that see next-to-no use.
Especially so when people compare style pages, a cosmetic, to a potion that allows you to sustain your gameplay experience.
I find it peculiar that people would consider acquiring cosmetics something detached from the gameplay experience.
I also find it peculiar that people would consider harvesting, engaging in commerce or daily writs detached from the gameplay experience.
Probably that is the crux of the matter: whatever we don't engage on becomes detached, superfluous, ancillary, something that should not in any way factor in or have any bearing on our gameplay experience.
I am not exempt from that, for instance getting one of the chapter rewards locked behind ToT is irksome to me.
However I am not being facetious here, for me acquiring cosmetics IS the gameplay experience.
Engaging in harvesting, commerce and daily writs in an integral part of what enables me to acquire cosmetics by generating wealth that I can use to acquire the ones that are tradeable (because there are not enough hours in the day to acquire all of them by oneself with the unfavourable RNG and the degree of granularity in their implementation) and consumables/sundries that allow me to engage with the content that yields the ones that are soulbound.
Cosmetics might be irrelevant to you, I understand that, but they are definitely not irrelevant to me.
It's fine to be after cosmetics of course. Nonetheless they don't change your performance during gaming sessions. For example there isn't a single cosmetic in this game, which results in better harvesting yields or which would give you the possibility to do more writs per day and so on.
So there is in fact a very noticeable difference between cosmetics (which are just that, a change to your appearance while playing the game) and basic gameplay tools (which directly change the performance of the chosen activity).Edited by Braffin on October 11, 2023 9:20AMNever get between a cat and it's candy!
---
Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. It's not that hard.0 -
ApoAlaia✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Tyrant_Tim wrote: »I find it fascinating that anyone would be opposed to an update to the Health/Invisibility/Immovable AP potions that see next-to-no use.
Especially so when people compare style pages, a cosmetic, to a potion that allows you to sustain your gameplay experience.
I find it peculiar that people would consider acquiring cosmetics something detached from the gameplay experience.
I also find it peculiar that people would consider harvesting, engaging in commerce or daily writs detached from the gameplay experience.
Probably that is the crux of the matter: whatever we don't engage on becomes detached, superfluous, ancillary, something that should not in any way factor in or have any bearing on our gameplay experience.
I am not exempt from that, for instance getting one of the chapter rewards locked behind ToT is irksome to me.
However I am not being facetious here, for me acquiring cosmetics IS the gameplay experience.
Engaging in harvesting, commerce and daily writs in an integral part of what enables me to acquire cosmetics by generating wealth that I can use to acquire the ones that are tradeable (because there are not enough hours in the day to acquire all of them by oneself with the unfavourable RNG and the degree of granularity in their implementation) and consumables/sundries that allow me to engage with the content that yields the ones that are soulbound.
Cosmetics might be irrelevant to you, I understand that, but they are definitely not irrelevant to me.
It's fine to be after cosmetics of course. Nonetheless they don't change your performance during gaming sessions. For example there isn't a single cosmetic in this game, which results in better harvesting yields or which would give you the possibility to do more writs per day and so on.
So there is in fact a very noticeable difference between cosmetics (which are just that, a change to your appearance while playing the game) and basic gameplay tools (which directly change the performance of the chosen activity).
Apologies, I edited my comment while you were replying.
Either way cosmetics do have a bearing on gameplay, might no increase my character's stats (which is good) but if affects my engagement with the game.
Furthermore I need to play the game same as everyone else to get them, is not like there is a gameplay avenue that allows me to get soulbound cosmetics without engaging with the content (nor I am wishing for one, there is precious little reward for playing the game, I won't be the one asking for less.)
I still need tri-pots same as everyone else, and heroism pots, and resist pots, and detection pots (because I have to PvP whether I like it or not).
The difference is that I consider producing the means to have access to those pots a requirement, same as I consider having to PvP a requirement. For me there is no difference. Is stuff I have to do, whether I like it or not is irrelevant.
And the way I read the prevalent opinion in this thread is that is not the same, that providing players an exemption from doing something they don't want to do is OK depending of what the exemption is.
Where I am of the opinion that if exemptions are to be dispensed on that basis - stuff people don't want to do - then they should be much wider in scope.
Edited by ApoAlaia on October 11, 2023 9:47AM1 -
Braffin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Tyrant_Tim wrote: »I find it fascinating that anyone would be opposed to an update to the Health/Invisibility/Immovable AP potions that see next-to-no use.
Especially so when people compare style pages, a cosmetic, to a potion that allows you to sustain your gameplay experience.
I find it peculiar that people would consider acquiring cosmetics something detached from the gameplay experience.
I also find it peculiar that people would consider harvesting, engaging in commerce or daily writs detached from the gameplay experience.
Probably that is the crux of the matter: whatever we don't engage on becomes detached, superfluous, ancillary, something that should not in any way factor in or have any bearing on our gameplay experience.
I am not exempt from that, for instance getting one of the chapter rewards locked behind ToT is irksome to me.
However I am not being facetious here, for me acquiring cosmetics IS the gameplay experience.
Engaging in harvesting, commerce and daily writs in an integral part of what enables me to acquire cosmetics by generating wealth that I can use to acquire the ones that are tradeable (because there are not enough hours in the day to acquire all of them by oneself with the unfavourable RNG and the degree of granularity in their implementation) and consumables/sundries that allow me to engage with the content that yields the ones that are soulbound.
Cosmetics might be irrelevant to you, I understand that, but they are definitely not irrelevant to me.
It's fine to be after cosmetics of course. Nonetheless they don't change your performance during gaming sessions. For example there isn't a single cosmetic in this game, which results in better harvesting yields or which would give you the possibility to do more writs per day and so on.
So there is in fact a very noticeable difference between cosmetics (which are just that, a change to your appearance while playing the game) and basic gameplay tools (which directly change the performance of the chosen activity).
Apologies, I edited my comment while you were replying.
Either way cosmetics do have a bearing on gameplay, might no increase my character's stats (which is good) but if affects my engagement with the game.
Furthermore I need to play the game same as everyone else to get them, is not like there is a gameplay avenue that allows me to get soulbound cosmetics without engaging with the content (nor I am wishing for one, there is precious little reward for playing the game, I won't be the one asking for less.)
I still need tri-pots same as everyone else, and heroism pots, and resist pots, and detection pots (because I have to PvP whether I like it or not).
The difference is that I consider producing the means to have access to those pots a requirement, same as I consider having to PvP a requirement. For me there is no difference. Is stuff I have to do, whether I like it or not is irrelevant.
And the way I read the prevalent opinion in this thread is that is not the same, that providing players an exemption for doing something they don't want to do is OK depending of what the exemption is.
Where I am of the opinion that if exemptions are to be dispensed on that basis - stuff people don't want to do - then it should be much wider in scope.
Nobody should feel forced to do something in a video game, I agree this far. Thus I indeed would appreciate alternatives for players to earn rewards locked behind content they really don't want to do.
The main difference regarding your ToT-example is this imo: In the thread you referred to, OP asked for the utter elimination of leads dropping from ToT, which would lead to an unrewarding gaming experience for all players interested in this minigame (I'm not one of them tho. Never played ToT.). I see no reason for this. But I wouldn't oppose an alternate way of obtaining the lead in question for example.
Nonetheless I stand by my distinction between cosmetics and gameplaywise relevant items. While the first have possibly an impact on a player's engagement with the game (which is a relevant consideration), the second additionally are relevant in realizing this engagement.
I also vote for putting housing materials at the vendors for example for the very same reason: Players should be able to spend the majority of their time in content they are enjoying, as this is the main reason of playing any video game.
And I also want to see reasonable alternatives for obtaining leads, hakejio-runes and any other reward locked behind specific content. Zos already invented a vendor for golden jewelry and monster helmets years ago and there are still enough players interested in dungeons to maintain a healthy population.
So long story short: I definitely support players which are asking for reasonable (= not easier, but comparable) alternatives, while I oppose demands, which are trying to take away stuff from other people to maximize own profit (as was done in the ToT-thread).Never get between a cat and it's candy!
---
Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. It's not that hard.0 -
ApoAlaia✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Tyrant_Tim wrote: »I find it fascinating that anyone would be opposed to an update to the Health/Invisibility/Immovable AP potions that see next-to-no use.
Especially so when people compare style pages, a cosmetic, to a potion that allows you to sustain your gameplay experience.
I find it peculiar that people would consider acquiring cosmetics something detached from the gameplay experience.
I also find it peculiar that people would consider harvesting, engaging in commerce or daily writs detached from the gameplay experience.
Probably that is the crux of the matter: whatever we don't engage on becomes detached, superfluous, ancillary, something that should not in any way factor in or have any bearing on our gameplay experience.
I am not exempt from that, for instance getting one of the chapter rewards locked behind ToT is irksome to me.
However I am not being facetious here, for me acquiring cosmetics IS the gameplay experience.
Engaging in harvesting, commerce and daily writs in an integral part of what enables me to acquire cosmetics by generating wealth that I can use to acquire the ones that are tradeable (because there are not enough hours in the day to acquire all of them by oneself with the unfavourable RNG and the degree of granularity in their implementation) and consumables/sundries that allow me to engage with the content that yields the ones that are soulbound.
Cosmetics might be irrelevant to you, I understand that, but they are definitely not irrelevant to me.
It's fine to be after cosmetics of course. Nonetheless they don't change your performance during gaming sessions. For example there isn't a single cosmetic in this game, which results in better harvesting yields or which would give you the possibility to do more writs per day and so on.
So there is in fact a very noticeable difference between cosmetics (which are just that, a change to your appearance while playing the game) and basic gameplay tools (which directly change the performance of the chosen activity).
Apologies, I edited my comment while you were replying.
Either way cosmetics do have a bearing on gameplay, might no increase my character's stats (which is good) but if affects my engagement with the game.
Furthermore I need to play the game same as everyone else to get them, is not like there is a gameplay avenue that allows me to get soulbound cosmetics without engaging with the content (nor I am wishing for one, there is precious little reward for playing the game, I won't be the one asking for less.)
I still need tri-pots same as everyone else, and heroism pots, and resist pots, and detection pots (because I have to PvP whether I like it or not).
The difference is that I consider producing the means to have access to those pots a requirement, same as I consider having to PvP a requirement. For me there is no difference. Is stuff I have to do, whether I like it or not is irrelevant.
And the way I read the prevalent opinion in this thread is that is not the same, that providing players an exemption for doing something they don't want to do is OK depending of what the exemption is.
Where I am of the opinion that if exemptions are to be dispensed on that basis - stuff people don't want to do - then it should be much wider in scope.
Nobody should feel forced to do something in a video game, I agree this far. Thus I indeed would appreciate alternatives for players to earn rewards locked behind content they really don't want to do.
The main difference regarding your ToT-example is this imo: In the thread you referred to, OP asked for the utter elimination of leads dropping from ToT, which would lead to an unrewarding gaming experience for all players interested in this minigame (I'm not one of them tho. Never played ToT.). I see no reason for this. But I wouldn't oppose an alternate way of obtaining the lead in question for example.
Nonetheless I stand by my distinction between cosmetics and gameplaywise relevant items. While the first have possibly an impact on a player's engagement with the game (which is a relevant consideration), the second additionally are relevant in realizing this engagement.
I also vote for putting housing materials at the vendors for example for the very same reason: Players should be able to spend the majority of their time in content they are enjoying, as this is the main reason of playing any video game.
And I also want to see reasonable alternatives for obtaining leads, hakejio-runes and any other reward locked behind specific content. Zos already invented a vendor for golden jewelry and monster helmets years ago and there are still enough players interested in dungeons to maintain a healthy population.
So long story short: I definitely support players which are asking for reasonable (= not easier, but comparable) alternatives, while I oppose demands, which are trying to take away stuff from other people to maximize own profit (as was done in the ToT-thread).
Well then we are not on disagreement.
I am not asking for - to use the same example - the lead from ToT to magically appear on my inbox just for logging in, nor for the ToT related rewards (furnishings, house guests etc) to be taken away from ToT.
I know that if I ever want access to those cosmetics I will have to bite the bullet and LTP ToT.
Neither I am vehemently opposed to tri-pots being available for purchase.
I'm just saying that to me having to learn an entire new game that I have no interest on - not just ToT, these kind of card games have never been appealing to me, whatever guise they appear under - to get a lead for the chapter cosmetic reward is no different to someone having to do daily writs they don't want to do to have access to potions.
The operating premise is 'doing things we don't want to do to get what we want'.
And if an exemption is made for the latter - by putting the pots for sale on vendors - so should be for the former - by making the lead available by other means.0 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Transmutes cannot be traded so is not in any way an equivalent. People still have to farm their own transmutes, and Cyro remains by far the most efficient way to do so, more so if one wants to store transmutes (50 per geode vs 10) because of not having ESO+ for instance (500 limit).
Daily random normal dungeons are the most efficient way to farm transmutes currently. Followed by doing the daily pledges. PvP is not even close to them for farming transmutes.
10 per character per day for the daily random normal dungeons, assuming non DLC pledges are vet HM and dlc is normal, its between 9 and 13 transmutes per day (average of 11).
Lets assume only 1 character for simplicities sake.Cyrodiil is a 30 day campaign, so it takes 30 days for 1 geode worth 50 transmutes.
Cyrodiil daily rewards for the worthy is once per day per account and has a roughly 70-80% chance to drop 4 transmutes with a less than 5% chance to drop 25 transmutes. It roughly equates to an average of 6 transmutes per character per day on average (some will get lucky and get more, majority wont).
If we combine the rewards from the monthly drop and the daily average we get 1.6 transmutes for each day from the monthly reward + 6 (on average) from the daily rewards for the worthy for an average transmute gain of 7.6 transmutes per day, per character.
1 Daily random dungeon gives a guaranteed 10 transmutes per day, or roughly 30% more on average, and its guaranteed.
The daily random does not include doing pledges. Daily pledges give 1 to 5 transmutes for normal (or 3 on average), and guaranteed 4 for completing vet hard mode. Assuming you do 2 non DLC pledges on vet HM and DLC pledge on normal (or non HM), you get 4 + 4 + 3, so you get on average 11 transmutes from doing the daily pledges.
As you can see, for the average player (someone who won't typically be on a leaderboard) playing the game, doing 1 daily random + 3 pledges (with the DLC being on normal mode) they can get on average 21 transmutes per day, per character. Compare this to a PvPer who on average gets 7 to 8 transmutes per day doing PvP.
Assuming best case scenario (only 1 character and the PvP player gets the 25 transmute drop every day for the full month, statistically this is nearly impossible), they are only barely ahead of a PvE player doing their daily randoms + pledges by about 25%, or 5 transmutes per day and the PvE player has their transmutes guaranteed, while the PvP player has to win that 25 transmute roll every single day for a full month.
So to simplify that down:
[*] PvP nets a player on average 50 + (6*30) or 50 +180 = 230 transmutes over a 30 day period (on average).
[*] PvE daily random nets a player 30 * 10 = 300 transmutes over a 30 day period (assuming ONLY daily random dungeons).
[*] PvE daily pledges nets a player 30 * 11 = 330 transmutes over a 30 day period (on average, assuming 2 vet HM (non DLC) + 1 normal (DLC) pledge).
On average over a 30 day period, doing both daily PvE content nets a player nearly 3 times the amount of transmutes than doing daily PvP.
This is only calculating for a single character, if we have 2 characters:You get 2 transmute geodes worth 50 once every 30 days, then 1 guaranteed rewards for the worthy drop each day from PvP. This equates to about 9 transmutes per day on average for doing PvP on 2 characters every day for a month.
[*] Or 50 + 50 + 180 = 280 transmutes
Meanwhile doing the daily random guarantees 20 transmutes per day (10 per character per day), doing pledges on top of daily randoms gets on average 42 (minimum 38) transmutes per day.
[*] Or 30 * 10 * 2 = 600 transmutes (for daily random)
[*] and 30 * 11 * 2 = 660 transmutes (for daily pledges) or 30 * 9 * 2 = 540 transmutes (bare minimum with pledges outlined above)
Or 1260 transmutes each month from PvE activities compared to 280 each month from PvP activities for 2 characters.
And the amount of extra transmutes you gain from PvE sources compared to PvP sources exponentially increases the more characters you include and these PvE sourced transmutes are guaranteed, not an extremely vast range with a miniscule chance to get the best reward.
Yes, rewards for the worthy has a chance to give additional daily geodes, but those are not guaranteed and their drop chance is small enough anyway that the difference those would make for a reasonable play duration is negligeable.
Yes, the 50 transmute geodes are an efficient way to store transmutes, but those only drop once per month, not daily like the 10 transmute geodes from PvE content does.2 -
ApoAlaia✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »Transmutes cannot be traded so is not in any way an equivalent. People still have to farm their own transmutes, and Cyro remains by far the most efficient way to do so, more so if one wants to store transmutes (50 per geode vs 10) because of not having ESO+ for instance (500 limit).
Daily random normal dungeons are the most efficient way to farm transmutes currently. Followed by doing the daily pledges. PvP is not even close to them for farming transmutes.
10 per character per day for the daily random normal dungeons, assuming non DLC pledges are vet HM and dlc is normal, its between 9 and 13 transmutes per day (average of 11).
Lets assume only 1 character for simplicities sake.Cyrodiil is a 30 day campaign, so it takes 30 days for 1 geode worth 50 transmutes.
Cyrodiil daily rewards for the worthy is once per day per account and has a roughly 70-80% chance to drop 4 transmutes with a less than 5% chance to drop 25 transmutes. It roughly equates to an average of 6 transmutes per character per day on average (some will get lucky and get more, majority wont).
If we combine the rewards from the monthly drop and the daily average we get 1.6 transmutes for each day from the monthly reward + 6 (on average) from the daily rewards for the worthy for an average transmute gain of 7.6 transmutes per day, per character.
1 Daily random dungeon gives a guaranteed 10 transmutes per day, or roughly 30% more on average, and its guaranteed.
The daily random does not include doing pledges. Daily pledges give 1 to 5 transmutes for normal (or 3 on average), and guaranteed 4 for completing vet hard mode. Assuming you do 2 non DLC pledges on vet HM and DLC pledge on normal (or non HM), you get 4 + 4 + 3, so you get on average 11 transmutes from doing the daily pledges.
As you can see, for the average player (someone who won't typically be on a leaderboard) playing the game, doing 1 daily random + 3 pledges (with the DLC being on normal mode) they can get on average 21 transmutes per day, per character. Compare this to a PvPer who on average gets 7 to 8 transmutes per day doing PvP.
Assuming best case scenario (only 1 character and the PvP player gets the 25 transmute drop every day for the full month, statistically this is nearly impossible), they are only barely ahead of a PvE player doing their daily randoms + pledges by about 25%, or 5 transmutes per day and the PvE player has their transmutes guaranteed, while the PvP player has to win that 25 transmute roll every single day for a full month.
So to simplify that down:
[*] PvP nets a player on average 50 + (6*30) or 50 +180 = 230 transmutes over a 30 day period (on average).
[*] PvE daily random nets a player 30 * 10 = 300 transmutes over a 30 day period (assuming ONLY daily random dungeons).
[*] PvE daily pledges nets a player 30 * 11 = 330 transmutes over a 30 day period (on average, assuming 2 vet HM (non DLC) + 1 normal (DLC) pledge).
On average over a 30 day period, doing both daily PvE content nets a player nearly 3 times the amount of transmutes than doing daily PvP.
This is only calculating for a single character, if we have 2 characters:You get 2 transmute geodes worth 50 once every 30 days, then 1 guaranteed rewards for the worthy drop each day from PvP. This equates to about 9 transmutes per day on average for doing PvP on 2 characters every day for a month.
[*] Or 50 + 50 + 180 = 280 transmutes
Meanwhile doing the daily random guarantees 20 transmutes per day (10 per character per day), doing pledges on top of daily randoms gets on average 42 (minimum 38) transmutes per day.
[*] Or 30 * 10 * 2 = 600 transmutes (for daily random)
[*] and 30 * 11 * 2 = 660 transmutes (for daily pledges) or 30 * 9 * 2 = 540 transmutes (bare minimum with pledges outlined above)
Or 1260 transmutes each month from PvE activities compared to 280 each month from PvP activities for 2 characters.
And the amount of extra transmutes you gain from PvE sources compared to PvP sources exponentially increases the more characters you include and these PvE sourced transmutes are guaranteed, not an extremely vast range with a miniscule chance to get the best reward.
Yes, rewards for the worthy has a chance to give additional daily geodes, but those are not guaranteed and their drop chance is small enough anyway that the difference those would make for a reasonable play duration is negligeable.
Yes, the 50 transmute geodes are an efficient way to store transmutes, but those only drop once per month, not daily like the 10 transmute geodes from PvE content does.
I guess I never sat down and did the math.
For me it felt like the most efficient way at the time - half an hour in Cyro per character, 18 x 50 transmutes at the end of the month that I could feasibly store.
In PvE it felt like an absolute chore to do RND after RND, crack the geodes, reconstruct equipment and still have only half the density - although as a tradeoff the means of storage were not character bound.
Maybe I would have spent less time if I didn't do it the Cyro way.
I haven't needed to farm transmutes for a long time; between reconstructed equipment, uncracked geodes and the frankly risible amount that can be stored in the account itself I am sitting on 11k transmutes on my main and 5k on my alt but if I ever find myself in need I will definitely try the PvE route.1 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »Transmutes cannot be traded so is not in any way an equivalent. People still have to farm their own transmutes, and Cyro remains by far the most efficient way to do so, more so if one wants to store transmutes (50 per geode vs 10) because of not having ESO+ for instance (500 limit).
Daily random normal dungeons are the most efficient way to farm transmutes currently. Followed by doing the daily pledges. PvP is not even close to them for farming transmutes.
10 per character per day for the daily random normal dungeons, assuming non DLC pledges are vet HM and dlc is normal, its between 9 and 13 transmutes per day (average of 11).
Lets assume only 1 character for simplicities sake.Cyrodiil is a 30 day campaign, so it takes 30 days for 1 geode worth 50 transmutes.
Cyrodiil daily rewards for the worthy is once per day per account and has a roughly 70-80% chance to drop 4 transmutes with a less than 5% chance to drop 25 transmutes. It roughly equates to an average of 6 transmutes per character per day on average (some will get lucky and get more, majority wont).
If we combine the rewards from the monthly drop and the daily average we get 1.6 transmutes for each day from the monthly reward + 6 (on average) from the daily rewards for the worthy for an average transmute gain of 7.6 transmutes per day, per character.
1 Daily random dungeon gives a guaranteed 10 transmutes per day, or roughly 30% more on average, and its guaranteed.
The daily random does not include doing pledges. Daily pledges give 1 to 5 transmutes for normal (or 3 on average), and guaranteed 4 for completing vet hard mode. Assuming you do 2 non DLC pledges on vet HM and DLC pledge on normal (or non HM), you get 4 + 4 + 3, so you get on average 11 transmutes from doing the daily pledges.
As you can see, for the average player (someone who won't typically be on a leaderboard) playing the game, doing 1 daily random + 3 pledges (with the DLC being on normal mode) they can get on average 21 transmutes per day, per character. Compare this to a PvPer who on average gets 7 to 8 transmutes per day doing PvP.
Assuming best case scenario (only 1 character and the PvP player gets the 25 transmute drop every day for the full month, statistically this is nearly impossible), they are only barely ahead of a PvE player doing their daily randoms + pledges by about 25%, or 5 transmutes per day and the PvE player has their transmutes guaranteed, while the PvP player has to win that 25 transmute roll every single day for a full month.
So to simplify that down:
[*] PvP nets a player on average 50 + (6*30) or 50 +180 = 230 transmutes over a 30 day period (on average).
[*] PvE daily random nets a player 30 * 10 = 300 transmutes over a 30 day period (assuming ONLY daily random dungeons).
[*] PvE daily pledges nets a player 30 * 11 = 330 transmutes over a 30 day period (on average, assuming 2 vet HM (non DLC) + 1 normal (DLC) pledge).
On average over a 30 day period, doing both daily PvE content nets a player nearly 3 times the amount of transmutes than doing daily PvP.
This is only calculating for a single character, if we have 2 characters:You get 2 transmute geodes worth 50 once every 30 days, then 1 guaranteed rewards for the worthy drop each day from PvP. This equates to about 9 transmutes per day on average for doing PvP on 2 characters every day for a month.
[*] Or 50 + 50 + 180 = 280 transmutes
Meanwhile doing the daily random guarantees 20 transmutes per day (10 per character per day), doing pledges on top of daily randoms gets on average 42 (minimum 38) transmutes per day.
[*] Or 30 * 10 * 2 = 600 transmutes (for daily random)
[*] and 30 * 11 * 2 = 660 transmutes (for daily pledges) or 30 * 9 * 2 = 540 transmutes (bare minimum with pledges outlined above)
Or 1260 transmutes each month from PvE activities compared to 280 each month from PvP activities for 2 characters.
And the amount of extra transmutes you gain from PvE sources compared to PvP sources exponentially increases the more characters you include and these PvE sourced transmutes are guaranteed, not an extremely vast range with a miniscule chance to get the best reward.
Yes, rewards for the worthy has a chance to give additional daily geodes, but those are not guaranteed and their drop chance is small enough anyway that the difference those would make for a reasonable play duration is negligeable.
Yes, the 50 transmute geodes are an efficient way to store transmutes, but those only drop once per month, not daily like the 10 transmute geodes from PvE content does.
I guess I never sat down and did the math.
For me it felt like the most efficient way at the time - half an hour in Cyro per character, 18 x 50 transmutes at the end of the month that I could feasibly store.
In PvE it felt like an absolute chore to do RND after RND, crack the geodes, reconstruct equipment and still have only half the density - although as a tradeoff the means of storage were not character bound.
Maybe I would have spent less time if I didn't do it the Cyro way.
I haven't needed to farm transmutes for a long time; between reconstructed equipment, uncracked geodes and the frankly risible amount that can be stored in the account itself I am sitting on 11k transmutes on my main and 5k on my alt but if I ever find myself in need I will definitely try the PvE route.
It's a fair amount of math to sort through and my math won't be completely accurate for every single person due to the massive variance in the PvP daily geodes and just so many additional factors to account for (state/faction of PvP, length of dungeon, variance of geodes, additional geodes beyond the first, etc).
On average though it should be faster to gain transmutes via PvE, but the 50 geodes are definitely the best way to store them (we really just need no cap on how many can be stored imo).
Yeah, some of the dungeons can be a chore to run over and over. You can also get some very fast ones at the same time though.
Sounds like you won't be needing any transmutes for a long time though. Wish I had half the amount you have.1 -
notyuu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭You want easy columbine (and other reagents)
Go to imperal city
Get 500 stones (which takes ~90 mins topside)
Buy a Waxed Apothecary's Satchel in your alliance base
Recieve 6-12 of a bunch of random reagents
rinse and repeat1 -
Braffin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭You want easy columbine (and other reagents)
Go to imperal city
Get 500 stones (which takes ~90 mins topside)
Buy a Waxed Apothecary's Satchel in your alliance base
Recieve 6-12 of a bunch of random reagents
rinse and repeat
I assume you meant "~90 sec".
That's only a solution for small amount of the playerbase tho, as IC is only an easy farm if the population is small.Never get between a cat and it's candy!
---
Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. It's not that hard.1 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The operating premise is 'doing things we don't want to do to get what we want'.
And if an exemption is made for the latter - by putting the pots for sale on vendors - so should be for the former - by making the lead available by other means.
It's not the operating premise for me though. It's comparing apples to oranges. The operating premise for me is "What best impacts the health of each activity in the game?"
Cosmetics is the reward. Gameplay items are the means through which rewards are acquired. I like rewards too. Cosmetics aren't nothing for me. That's why I strongly oppose the idea that different types of content shouldn't each have unique rewards. A journey without a destination isn't as fun.
I think someone doing something they don't want to do is a natural part of ensuring each piece of content feels rewarding. The question for me is when does that cross the line.Edited by spartaxoxo on October 11, 2023 12:54PM0 -
ApoAlaia✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »The operating premise is 'doing things we don't want to do to get what we want'.
And if an exemption is made for the latter - by putting the pots for sale on vendors - so should be for the former - by making the lead available by other means.
It's not the operating premise for me though. It's comparing apples to oranges. The operating premise for me is "What best impacts the health of each activity in the game?"
Cosmetics is the reward. Gameplay items are the means through which rewards are acquired. I like rewards too. Cosmetics aren't nothing for me. That's why I strongly oppose the idea that different types of content shouldn't each have unique rewards. A journey without a destination isn't as fun.
I think someone doing something they don't want to do is a natural part of ensuring each piece of content feels rewarding. The question for me is when does that cross the line.
Well, we have different motivators and that affects our perception.
I don't see why one player spending time learning to play an entirely new and unrelated game of a variety that has never been interested on is 'healthy' but having another player spending time learning a system that has arguably a much easier learning curve and has been in the game since beta is 'unhealthy', and frankly I don't think going in circles is going to change either our minds.
1 -
PrincessOfThieves✭✭✭✭✭
✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »Transmutes cannot be traded so is not in any way an equivalent. People still have to farm their own transmutes, and Cyro remains by far the most efficient way to do so, more so if one wants to store transmutes (50 per geode vs 10) because of not having ESO+ for instance (500 limit).
Daily random normal dungeons are the most efficient way to farm transmutes currently. Followed by doing the daily pledges. PvP is not even close to them for farming transmutes.
10 per character per day for the daily random normal dungeons, assuming non DLC pledges are vet HM and dlc is normal, its between 9 and 13 transmutes per day (average of 11).
Lets assume only 1 character for simplicities sake.Cyrodiil is a 30 day campaign, so it takes 30 days for 1 geode worth 50 transmutes.
Cyrodiil daily rewards for the worthy is once per day per account and has a roughly 70-80% chance to drop 4 transmutes with a less than 5% chance to drop 25 transmutes. It roughly equates to an average of 6 transmutes per character per day on average (some will get lucky and get more, majority wont).
If we combine the rewards from the monthly drop and the daily average we get 1.6 transmutes for each day from the monthly reward + 6 (on average) from the daily rewards for the worthy for an average transmute gain of 7.6 transmutes per day, per character.
1 Daily random dungeon gives a guaranteed 10 transmutes per day, or roughly 30% more on average, and its guaranteed.
The daily random does not include doing pledges. Daily pledges give 1 to 5 transmutes for normal (or 3 on average), and guaranteed 4 for completing vet hard mode. Assuming you do 2 non DLC pledges on vet HM and DLC pledge on normal (or non HM), you get 4 + 4 + 3, so you get on average 11 transmutes from doing the daily pledges.
As you can see, for the average player (someone who won't typically be on a leaderboard) playing the game, doing 1 daily random + 3 pledges (with the DLC being on normal mode) they can get on average 21 transmutes per day, per character. Compare this to a PvPer who on average gets 7 to 8 transmutes per day doing PvP.
Assuming best case scenario (only 1 character and the PvP player gets the 25 transmute drop every day for the full month, statistically this is nearly impossible), they are only barely ahead of a PvE player doing their daily randoms + pledges by about 25%, or 5 transmutes per day and the PvE player has their transmutes guaranteed, while the PvP player has to win that 25 transmute roll every single day for a full month.
So to simplify that down:
[*] PvP nets a player on average 50 + (6*30) or 50 +180 = 230 transmutes over a 30 day period (on average).
[*] PvE daily random nets a player 30 * 10 = 300 transmutes over a 30 day period (assuming ONLY daily random dungeons).
[*] PvE daily pledges nets a player 30 * 11 = 330 transmutes over a 30 day period (on average, assuming 2 vet HM (non DLC) + 1 normal (DLC) pledge).
On average over a 30 day period, doing both daily PvE content nets a player nearly 3 times the amount of transmutes than doing daily PvP.
This is only calculating for a single character, if we have 2 characters:You get 2 transmute geodes worth 50 once every 30 days, then 1 guaranteed rewards for the worthy drop each day from PvP. This equates to about 9 transmutes per day on average for doing PvP on 2 characters every day for a month.
[*] Or 50 + 50 + 180 = 280 transmutes
Meanwhile doing the daily random guarantees 20 transmutes per day (10 per character per day), doing pledges on top of daily randoms gets on average 42 (minimum 38) transmutes per day.
[*] Or 30 * 10 * 2 = 600 transmutes (for daily random)
[*] and 30 * 11 * 2 = 660 transmutes (for daily pledges) or 30 * 9 * 2 = 540 transmutes (bare minimum with pledges outlined above)
Or 1260 transmutes each month from PvE activities compared to 280 each month from PvP activities for 2 characters.
And the amount of extra transmutes you gain from PvE sources compared to PvP sources exponentially increases the more characters you include and these PvE sourced transmutes are guaranteed, not an extremely vast range with a miniscule chance to get the best reward.
Yes, rewards for the worthy has a chance to give additional daily geodes, but those are not guaranteed and their drop chance is small enough anyway that the difference those would make for a reasonable play duration is negligeable.
Yes, the 50 transmute geodes are an efficient way to store transmutes, but those only drop once per month, not daily like the 10 transmute geodes from PvE content does.
There's one more factor, though, and that is time.
I could get 1-2 chars to rank 1 rewards while waiting for my random normal queue as a dd. And you arent required to play daily to get these 50 transmutes.
That being said, it would be nice to make BiS potion materials more accessible. Not just columbines, dragon blood an rheum as well.
They could at least add an alchemy hireling so that there's more mats on the market. Or make alchemy satchels that you could buy with AP.Edited by PrincessOfThieves on October 11, 2023 1:24PM0 -
katanagirl1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭PrincessOfThieves wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »Transmutes cannot be traded so is not in any way an equivalent. People still have to farm their own transmutes, and Cyro remains by far the most efficient way to do so, more so if one wants to store transmutes (50 per geode vs 10) because of not having ESO+ for instance (500 limit).
Daily random normal dungeons are the most efficient way to farm transmutes currently. Followed by doing the daily pledges. PvP is not even close to them for farming transmutes.
10 per character per day for the daily random normal dungeons, assuming non DLC pledges are vet HM and dlc is normal, its between 9 and 13 transmutes per day (average of 11).
Lets assume only 1 character for simplicities sake.Cyrodiil is a 30 day campaign, so it takes 30 days for 1 geode worth 50 transmutes.
Cyrodiil daily rewards for the worthy is once per day per account and has a roughly 70-80% chance to drop 4 transmutes with a less than 5% chance to drop 25 transmutes. It roughly equates to an average of 6 transmutes per character per day on average (some will get lucky and get more, majority wont).
If we combine the rewards from the monthly drop and the daily average we get 1.6 transmutes for each day from the monthly reward + 6 (on average) from the daily rewards for the worthy for an average transmute gain of 7.6 transmutes per day, per character.
1 Daily random dungeon gives a guaranteed 10 transmutes per day, or roughly 30% more on average, and its guaranteed.
The daily random does not include doing pledges. Daily pledges give 1 to 5 transmutes for normal (or 3 on average), and guaranteed 4 for completing vet hard mode. Assuming you do 2 non DLC pledges on vet HM and DLC pledge on normal (or non HM), you get 4 + 4 + 3, so you get on average 11 transmutes from doing the daily pledges.
As you can see, for the average player (someone who won't typically be on a leaderboard) playing the game, doing 1 daily random + 3 pledges (with the DLC being on normal mode) they can get on average 21 transmutes per day, per character. Compare this to a PvPer who on average gets 7 to 8 transmutes per day doing PvP.
Assuming best case scenario (only 1 character and the PvP player gets the 25 transmute drop every day for the full month, statistically this is nearly impossible), they are only barely ahead of a PvE player doing their daily randoms + pledges by about 25%, or 5 transmutes per day and the PvE player has their transmutes guaranteed, while the PvP player has to win that 25 transmute roll every single day for a full month.
So to simplify that down:
[*] PvP nets a player on average 50 + (6*30) or 50 +180 = 230 transmutes over a 30 day period (on average).
[*] PvE daily random nets a player 30 * 10 = 300 transmutes over a 30 day period (assuming ONLY daily random dungeons).
[*] PvE daily pledges nets a player 30 * 11 = 330 transmutes over a 30 day period (on average, assuming 2 vet HM (non DLC) + 1 normal (DLC) pledge).
On average over a 30 day period, doing both daily PvE content nets a player nearly 3 times the amount of transmutes than doing daily PvP.
This is only calculating for a single character, if we have 2 characters:You get 2 transmute geodes worth 50 once every 30 days, then 1 guaranteed rewards for the worthy drop each day from PvP. This equates to about 9 transmutes per day on average for doing PvP on 2 characters every day for a month.
[*] Or 50 + 50 + 180 = 280 transmutes
Meanwhile doing the daily random guarantees 20 transmutes per day (10 per character per day), doing pledges on top of daily randoms gets on average 42 (minimum 38) transmutes per day.
[*] Or 30 * 10 * 2 = 600 transmutes (for daily random)
[*] and 30 * 11 * 2 = 660 transmutes (for daily pledges) or 30 * 9 * 2 = 540 transmutes (bare minimum with pledges outlined above)
Or 1260 transmutes each month from PvE activities compared to 280 each month from PvP activities for 2 characters.
And the amount of extra transmutes you gain from PvE sources compared to PvP sources exponentially increases the more characters you include and these PvE sourced transmutes are guaranteed, not an extremely vast range with a miniscule chance to get the best reward.
Yes, rewards for the worthy has a chance to give additional daily geodes, but those are not guaranteed and their drop chance is small enough anyway that the difference those would make for a reasonable play duration is negligeable.
Yes, the 50 transmute geodes are an efficient way to store transmutes, but those only drop once per month, not daily like the 10 transmute geodes from PvE content does.
There's one more factor, though, and that is time.
I could get 1-2 chars to rank 1 rewards while waiting for my random normal queue as a dd. And you arent required to play daily to get these 50 transmutes.
That being said, it would be nice to make BiS potion materials more accessible. Not just columbines, dragon blood an rheum as well.
They could at least add an alchemy hireling so that there's more mats on the market. Or make alchemy satchels that you could buy with AP.
Even with time being factored in, whether you like the activity or not can change the outcome. I would much rather get my transmutes from Cyrodiil than do random daily dungeons. In fact, I’m going to be doing Cyrodiil anyway.
You also have to consider all of the transmutes you get from Rewards of the Worthy too, it’s at least 4 crystals and can be up to 25 per geode.
Khajiit Stamblade
Dark Elf Magsorc
Redguard Stamina Dragonknight
Orc Stamplar PVP
Breton Magsorc PVP
PS5 NA2 -
prof-dracko✭✭✭✭✭Sorry, how much is Columbine going for atm? I have around 450 on me and if that could pay for a house (or at least some bloody Heartwood) then I'd be happy.0 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Sheezabeast wrote: »Letting you buy tripots with AP is a win-win, some pvpers are sitting on huge mountains of AP and would sell those potions for income. You'd see them on guild traders! Everyone benefits from it.
Yea, I know a lot of Cyrodiil players are sitting on millions and millions of AP because almost nothing is worth purchasing with AP at the moment (except for Alliance Spell Draught and some meta gear pieces that don’t always appear on the golden vendor).
When ZOS let PvPers buy Spell power pots with AP, a lot of us would sell them on traders and made a decent amount for ourselves. It’s a win win for everyone.Edited by StaticWave on October 12, 2023 7:14PMPlatform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc2 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭prof-dracko wrote: »Sorry, how much is Columbine going for atm? I have around 450 on me and if that could pay for a house (or at least some bloody Heartwood) then I'd be happy.
Depends on your server, but PC EU is an average of 2k+ per columbine.0 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Every single listing put up over the past hour on TTC EU is showing minimum of 1699 gold per columbine with the average and a 95% majority of listings being 2k or higher gold per columbine.
In other words, a stack of columbine (200) is about 400k gold on average for a consumable.
Yeah... this needs intervention. This is the old corn flower levels of absurdity and they added those pots to alliance vendors.0 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »Every single listing put up over the past hour on TTC EU is showing minimum of 1699 gold per columbine with the average and a 95% majority of listings being 2k or higher gold per columbine.
In other words, a stack of columbine (200) is about 400k gold on average for a consumable.
Yeah... this needs intervention. This is the old corn flower levels of absurdity and they added those pots to alliance vendors.
The price for a stack of tripots is 2-3x the highest I ever paid for spell power pots.0 -
prof-dracko✭✭✭✭✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »prof-dracko wrote: »Sorry, how much is Columbine going for atm? I have around 450 on me and if that could pay for a house (or at least some bloody Heartwood) then I'd be happy.
Depends on your server, but PC EU is an average of 2k+ per columbine.
That's well over 800k for me...0 -
EmEm_Oh✭✭✭✭✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »prof-dracko wrote: »Sorry, how much is Columbine going for atm? I have around 450 on me and if that could pay for a house (or at least some bloody Heartwood) then I'd be happy.
Depends on your server, but PC EU is an average of 2k+ per columbine.
Have people just gotten lazy and don't grind for mats?2 -
TaSheen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »prof-dracko wrote: »Sorry, how much is Columbine going for atm? I have around 450 on me and if that could pay for a house (or at least some bloody Heartwood) then I'd be happy.
Depends on your server, but PC EU is an average of 2k+ per columbine.
Have people just gotten lazy and don't grind for mats?
I guess? I harvest all mats on every character I'm playing. Of course, I don't bother with pvp or pve endgame. So yeah, my craft bag is worth millions....______________________________________________________
"But even in books, the heroes make mistakes, and there isn't always a happy ending." Mercedes Lackey, Into the West
PC NA, PC EU (non steam)- four accounts, many alts....1 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »prof-dracko wrote: »Sorry, how much is Columbine going for atm? I have around 450 on me and if that could pay for a house (or at least some bloody Heartwood) then I'd be happy.
Depends on your server, but PC EU is an average of 2k+ per columbine.
Have people just gotten lazy and don't grind for mats?
Nope, columbine is just needed for far too many BiS things considering its lowered drop rate (it tends to drop slightly less flowers than other alchemy ingredients do on average and I'm fairly certain the spawn rate of the specific flower is lower as well).
It's usages include:- Heroism-pots (BiS pot for PvE end game)
- tri-pots (Main pot for PvE tanking and general PvP)
- multiple (3-5 that I can think of) BiS poisons (this is a PvP thing)
- 2 stat + immovability pots (very common in PvP but can be useful for some PvE builds/content)
BTW, adding tri-pots to AP vendors doesn't remove the fact that columbine will still be needed for the other potions/poisons listed above, so it will still be a very expensive alchemical ingredient, it will just reduce the cost burden of players who aren't pushing the very top end of playing since the most common use case (tri-pots) will have another way to be sourced and more widely accessible.5