Where are the QoL improvements for Sorcerer?

MashmalloMan · October 2023

Pelanora wrote: »

Why does the execute suck. Thats some qol id like. Hit twice with an arrow or sword to get what maybe, maybe, MAYBE i get from calling down lightning.

It sucks because all Sorc skills "suck" comparitively to other class skills in a vacuum. We have the highest access to delayed burst in the game which is why we swing so heavily depending on the meta of the games combat design and sets.

We're expected to stack all of them together which made more sense when we had 3rd bar overload. We have more quantity, but the quality of those skills is lacking a bit when you compare damage and auxillary effects to other similar category skills. The core concepts of the skills are strong, but what a Sorc does in 5 abilities, a NB does in 3. I'd say it's a pro/con and I'm mostly okay with it.

StaticWave wrote: »

I'm a stamsorc main and I think stamsorc just needs 2-3 adjustments:

1) Remove cast time from Dark Deal and reduce sustain return (value to be determined)
Stamsorc has no burst heal and relies on Rally or slotting a set to cover this weakness. This is a band-aid fix and limits build diversity. Removing the cast time from Dark Deal and reducing the sustain return would ensure that stamsorc has access to a usable burst heal, but would also limit its potential to be OP

2) Reduce Crit Surge tooltip (value to be determined) but increase proc chance to 100% OR give 2% crit damage and healing per Sorc ability slotted
Crit Surge is a great heal when it procs a lot, but the issue is getting it to proc a lot requires you to sacrifice a lot. You have to run several DoTs and restrict your build diversity, or stack crit chance and lose out on damage. Increasing Crit Surge proc chance to 100% and reducing its tooltip value would ensure that the class has access to a reliable HoT while also limiting its potential to be OP.

Another path is to give Sorc 2% crit damage and healing per Sorc ability slotted instead of 2% WD/SD. This is imo, better than the 2% SD/WD because it would buff both Sorc damage and healing, whereas 2% WD/SD only buffs damage.

3) Give Bound Armaments 1 extra dagger and something when used
It's currently a gimped Merciless Resolved. Not only is MR significantly harder hitting, it also has a 52% life steal when you use it in melee range. Give BA something meaningful when used, like X more crit chance for 10s to help the class fit its crit theme.

1+2) I think you're underestimating how easily ZOS can completely destroy these skills based on your ideas to overhaul them. I understand your points about surge being hard to proc nowadays completely, it stems from multiple issues with ESO context today.

- Medium armor stopped providing crit chance.
- Hurricane ticks on 2s instead of 1s.
- Many other universal skills used to tick on 1s or 0.5s, now ticking on 2s.
- The 3.6% (or 3.8%, can't remember) on sets 1-4 pieces went to 3%.
Thief mundus got nerfed.

However, we have earned some things..

- Dot proc sets work with surge.
- Minor prophecy is technically usable to boost our crit where it didn't before, just kind of difficult right now without an active skill or Stam pot to give major prophecy, this would easily be fixed with ZOS finishing hybridization.
- Medium armor increases the potency of healing now.
- Minor Force and Minor Berserk for doing something we've always done, adding flexibility to not always require RAT when we have Streak or Camo Hunter

It's one of the strongest hots in the game because it has a proc chance which you can negate when outnumbered or if you stack tick frequencies. Making it proc 100% of the time would not only demolish the core concept of the skill and where it originated from (back when it scaled on damage dealt and no or little CD, can't remember), but also the heal potential.
It would be 1 step forward 1 step back.

Same idea with Dark Deal, other Stam classes earned a mag burst heal with hybridization, we didn't because Matriarch is dooky. I understand your point that we need one, but your solution is focussing on the wrong problem. That is our burst heal, we're never going to get a second 1 at that level, certainly not 1 that is also our sustain tool.

I do like your idea for crit damage done per slotted and BA though. Much more fitting for the theme of the class.

I think to your point points, they would be addressed by a few basic changes that don't require overhauling the skills:

1- revert hurricane tick change.
2- source of major prophecy so we can use minor prophecy and proc surge more frequently.
3- on demand hot, my suggestion is to dark deal.
4- fix Matriarch. 1 bar, untargettable, unkillable, anyone could use it, mag or stam.
5- BA pre nerf and giving crit chance per dagger or major prophecy would also fix your qualm. The stamina it gives is unnecessary and weak.
6- converting the 2% damage per slotted to crit or crit damage is a really cool idea. Maybe BA could give prophecy, this passive could give crit chance.
7- surge needs a bit more oomph because ESO has power crept up with CP 2.0 and sets, yet it's had the same value for 6+ years. If it scaled on offensive stats, it would go a long way. If not, a 20-30% boost is warranted.

I really feel like Sorc should be the death by a thousand cuts class, high crit chance, maybe low crit damage. It goes hand in hand with surge and our multi hit direct damage skills. NB should continue focussing on crit damage since they have 2 ways to guarantee crit. It distinguishes them a bit.

Aces-High-82 · October 2023

1. Crit surge
Either increase its healing by 33% or lower frequency to 0.5sec
2. Bound armaments
Remove stam% granted, add 3% crit chance per active dagger
3. Haunting curse
remove splash damage, either add major breach or introduce unique resistance decrease like CW with value matching major breach after second hit
4. Ugly bird
double its HP
5. Fury
Turn into lightning themed spammable shooting 3 bolts (like runeblades)
cost determined via highest resource
one morph provides exe scaling up to 25% to targets below 25% HP but 15m range
other morph guarantees minor vulnerability but 28m range
6. Dark Deal/Dark Conversion
a) leave cast time as is but restore true fixed HP value (8k) unaffected by battle spirit
b) lower cast time to 0.8sec and equalize restored HP/stat (Instant and over time introducing a small HoT)

StaticWave · October 2023

MashmalloMan wrote: »

1+2) I think you're underestimating how easily ZOS can completely destroy these skills based on your ideas to overhaul them. I understand your points about surge being hard to proc nowadays completely, it stems from multiple issues with ESO context today.

- Dot proc sets work with surge.
- Minor prophecy is technically usable to boost our crit where it didn't before, just kind of difficult right now without an active skill or Stam pot to give major prophecy, this would easily be fixed with ZOS finishing hybridization.
- Medium armor increases the potency of healing now.
- Minor Force and Minor Berserk for doing something we've always done, adding flexibility to not always require RAT when we have Streak or Camo Hunter

It's one of the strongest hots in the game because it has a proc chance which you can negate when outnumbered or if you stack tick frequencies. Making it proc 100% of the time would not only demolish the core concept of the skill and where it originated from (back when it scaled on damage dealt and no or little CD, can't remember), but also the heal potential.
It would be 1 step forward 1 step back.

The 2 problems I have with current Surge are

1) It limits build diversity

Like you said, Crit Surge proc chance increases when you stack DoTs, but that goes back to the issue I have with this class which is build diversity. You HAVE to stack DoTs to increase the proc chance, which limits build diversity as every Sorc build will now have to be a pseudo DoT build because that's the only way to make Crit Surge more reliable. What happens to a bursty Sorc like the old days? The majority of stamSorc builds you currently see are mDW or bow builds with multiple sources of DoTs. It just feels like a fast DK without the healing, and I don't think it fits the theme of this class which is supposed to be a highly mobile and super bursty killer (in contrast to the stealthy NB assassin).

2) It's a double edged sword and reduces in efficiency when you are playing defensive and kiting

It's a double edged sword when you mentioned that the proc chance increases when outnumbered. Yes, it does increase, but this class already lacks severely in the healing department and any potential ulti dump will make it impossible for you to recover from. If I have to throw myself into the fight to brawl to make full use of this class's healing, while not having a single burst heal to save myself in case I get ulti dumped, then does this really work efficiently?

Not only that, but the efficiency diminishes greatly when you start kiting. No people around you = no one to damage = no heals. What I find works best from my own experience 1vXing is I would slot Caltrops on my bar, drop it somewhere, and then kite them through the Caltrop zone with Hurricane and Quick Cloak ticking. That enables me to still heal from Surge while kiting, but again that goes back to the build diversity issue I mentioned because now I have to stack 3 AoE DoTs (2 of which aren't part of the class kit).

So either give Surge a 100% proc chance for a reduced tooltip, or give this class more crit chance so that other builds can still use this ability without being shoehorned into running specific setups.

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Same idea with Dark Deal, other Stam classes earned a mag burst heal with hybridization, we didn't because Matriarch is dooky. I understand your point that we need one, but your solution is focussing on the wrong problem. That is our burst heal, we're never going to get a second 1 at that level, certainly not 1 that is also our sustain tool.

I don't think people are going to slot Matriarch if it becomes 1 barred. This class already lacks bar space severely and I don't think people can afford to fit it on to their bar. For example here is what my hybrid vs stamSorc setup look like:

Hybrid:

Stam:

As you can see, I gained 1 bar slot by sacrificing Tri-potions and running the Mag/HP/Spell Crit one. That's still not enough though. I'm still missing a source of Expedition and Evasion on my hybrid Sorc, and I'm missing a burst heal on my stam Sorc. If Matriarch were 1 bar-able, I'd only be able to slot that on my hybrid Sorc. Stamsorc would definitely not have bar space for that as I'd be dropping Quick Cloak which is imo better for openworld due to the fact that it's an on demand Major Expedition and Evasion.

I proposed Dark Deal being instant cast with a reduced tooltip for the stam sustain because you don't need to change your bar, and still have access to an instant cast burst heal. Even at 8k tooltip, it's still a decent heal as you can now block cast it. For a class that is so mobile, having just an instant cast burst heal even with a gimped tooltip is still insanely strong.

MashmalloMan wrote: »

I think to your point points, they would be addressed by a few basic changes that don't require overhauling the skills:

1- revert hurricane tick change.
2- source of major prophecy so we can use minor prophecy and proc surge more frequently.
3- on demand hot, my suggestion is to dark deal.
4- fix Matriarch. 1 bar, untargettable, unkillable, anyone could use it, mag or stam.
5- BA pre nerf and giving crit chance per dagger or major prophecy would also fix your qualm. The stamina it gives is unnecessary and weak.
6- converting the 2% damage per slotted to crit or crit damage is a really cool idea. Maybe BA could give prophecy, this passive could give crit chance.
7- surge needs a bit more oomph because ESO has power crept up with CP 2.0 and sets, yet it's had the same value for 6+ years. If it scaled on offensive stats, it would go a long way. If not, a 20-30% boost is warranted.

I really feel like Sorc should be the death by a thousand cuts class, high crit chance, maybe low crit damage. It goes hand in hand with surge and our multi hit direct damage skills. NB should continue focussing on crit damage since they have 2 ways to guarantee crit. It distinguishes them a bit.

I actually had a build called A Thousand Cuts, and it was pretty strong back then with Rapid Strikes:

https://youtu.be/egDoKWV8Py8

It was pretty good but would not work in today's meta where damage is so high. The cast time is detrimental to this class's mobile playstyle. I would much prefer Sorc to be a super fast and bursty class with adequate survivability - certainly not in the realm of NB or DK, but enough to recover from mistakes. Maybe that's where our class ideology differs lol.

KainedED · October 2023

People out here try to give sorc major breach on curse lol come on.

MashmalloMan · October 2023

KainedED wrote: »

People out here try to give sorc major breach on curse lol come on.

What exactly is the problem with that? It's not a rare debuff anymore, you can expect an enemy to have it from someone else even if you don't run it in group content. The point is to throw Mag Sorc a bone and introduce a bit of build diversity they desperately lack, making them a bit more self sufficient as well. Yes they've historically run Ele Sus to fix this, and yes it's meta right now with Vat staff, but meta's don't last forever and rightly so. 95% of Mag Sorcs have Haunting Curse and Ele Sus on their bars, if they could free up 1 slot it could go a long way with other potential reworks to help Mag Sorc out again.

Haunting Curse only applies to 1 enemy at a time so you can easily say only the cursed enemy has Breach instead of the typical "breach for x seconds" and I would think that's completey fair and in line with other sources of it.

- Warden can apply 10s of AOE major and minor breach every 3-9s, its a travesty they nerfed this skills damage output, I've fought for them to change the 1st tick to be the stronger hit instead of the 2nd as it makes more sense to the original play style and makes it easier to land. Now it's basically a little stronger than a Dizz Swing.
- DK aoe major breach.
- Necro aoe major breach, although not great, they need plenty buffs, this thread isn't about them.
- NB has major breach, although mark target is kinda crap now and needs a rework.
- Templar doesn't, but I'd argue they should get major instead of minor on POTL or both, they can get Minor from Jabs pretty easily because it's 3 ticks of direct aoe damage. Minor only made sense back when it was a unique source that gave them a spot in trials 6 years ago, now it's not and POTL needs desperate help.
- Arcanist. Nope.

Back in the day, Breach and Fracture were separate from Ele Drain and Puncture.. now we have both on Caltrops, Crushing Weapon and Ele Sus/Drain. So again, not a rare named debuff.

KainedED · October 2023

The implication of your request would make sure the class that already has overwhelmingly good offensive capabilities no longer need to build into damage, allowing it to simply only wear pure defensive stats similar to night blade making it another problem.

Yes, curse applies only to one person but it’s also an ability that cannot be blocked or dodged.

You have to be objective when balancing

MashmalloMan · October 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

The 2 problems I have with current Surge are

1) It limits build diversity
Like you said, Crit Surge proc chance increases when you stack DoTs, but that goes back to the issue I have with this class which is build diversity. You HAVE to stack DoTs to increase the proc chance, which limits build diversity as every Sorc build will now have to be a pseudo DoT build because that's the only way to make Crit Surge more reliable. What happens to a bursty Sorc like the old days? The majority of stamSorc builds you currently see are mDW or bow builds with multiple sources of DoTs. It just feels like a fast DK without the healing, and I don't think it fits the theme of this class which is supposed to be a highly mobile and super bursty killer (in contrast to the stealthy NB assassin).

2) It's a double edged sword and reduces in efficiency when you are playing defensive and kiting
It's a double edged sword when you mentioned that the proc chance increases when outnumbered. Yes, it does increase, but this class already lacks severely in the healing department and any potential ulti dump will make it impossible for you to recover from. If I have to throw myself into the fight to brawl to make full use of this class's healing, while not having a single burst heal to save myself in case I get ulti dumped, then does this really work efficiently?

Not only that, but the efficiency diminishes greatly when you start kiting. No people around you = no one to damage = no heals. What I find works best from my own experience 1vXing is I would slot Caltrops on my bar, drop it somewhere, and then kite them through the Caltrop zone with Hurricane and Quick Cloak ticking. That enables me to still heal from Surge while kiting, but again that goes back to the build diversity issue I mentioned because now I have to stack 3 AoE DoTs (2 of which aren't part of the class kit).

So either give Surge a 100% proc chance for a reduced tooltip, or give this class more crit chance so that other builds can still use this ability without being shoehorned into running specific setups.

Well here's where we agree, as I said, if Sorc had better inate access to crit chance, this wouldn't be as much of a problem. Finish hybridization and even a simple Stam/Crit/Health potion is going to allow us to use minor prophecy instead of having to rely on Camo Hunter or Mag/Crit/Health pots.

You're describing issues for the play style that make sense for the abundant strength of the skill and I think those drawbacks are warranted, as are Dark Deals, asking it to be guaranteed is asking for it to be destroyed.

In my view, Surge is best used when YOU are the eye of the storm, getting the benefit of a long and decent passive hot for going offensive plays into its strengths. You have to be in the thick of it or at least have some dots to proc it when you're not.

If you're a brawler, you don't need to stack a ton of dots because in theory, your are the dot (although they f'ed this by making hurricane tick on 2s).

If you're more elusive, more of a glass cannon, then you either run some dots to proc it for free when you're on the run or you don't and get less potency out of it.

I'm sorry, but to me, that is what makes it balanced, it's a trade off. Guaranteeing procs is asking it to become something it's not just because Sorc lacks an on demand hot and a burst heal not attached to a 2 bar killable pet.

Also, haven't seen this mentioned, but Sorc lacks a purge. Since dots last 20-30s now, it's easy to just completely overwhelm a Sorc to the point where their hots are essentially reduced by half because they're being consumed by dots.

Fix the core problems, instead of introducing new ones by potential reworks.

To your comments about your 2 builds, I'm not sure what to say other than you can't expect to slot everything all the time. Even classes with more named buff access run out of space for things like major expedition or major evasion.

Yeah Sorc has a harder time with it because none of our core skills have decent named buffs, but that's exactly why I proposed major breach on Curse and major prophecy on BA. Those 2 changes alone would make Sorc's easier to build for. Open up potions and skill space a little for some builds.

"The cast time is detrimental to this class's mobile playstyle."

I don't agree. We have a teleport that can get you into places others can't so you can dark deal in safety, higher innate movement speed because of minor expedition allowing us to move quickly despite not sprinting. We have Amplitude for a free 10-7% upfront damage, lots of sustain passives, and dark deal to recoup our losses in 2-3 GCDs allowing most Sorc's to build less into sustain or defence than other classes feel required to do. You can sacrifice 1 or 2 jewelry pieces for Swift, you can wear mostly medium armor, rely on dodge rolling and speed.

A cast time on Dark Deal which would normally be annoying for other classes, fits right at home on Sorc because of all the above things that compensate for it.

Agree to disagree I guess. Not expecting to convince you, I just think Crit Surge and Dark Deal are balanced very well and aren't the root of our problems. Asking them to become something completely different functionally is most likely going to nerf them into a place no one will be happy with and won't address your concerns that can be fixed in other ways.

MashmalloMan · October 2023

@Aces-High-82 pretty much on the exact same page as you, although I don't think doubling pet health would fix anything, it's more of a bandaid.

Our % heal and burst heal shouldn't be attached to 2 bar, killable pets. Period. No debate.

This only made an ounce of sense when we had overload 3rd bar, which has been gone for 5+ years.

For BA, 3% is a bit too high. Looking at NB's Grim Focus as an example:

- Mercilous 300 DMG = Hundings Rage
- Hundings Rage = Leviathan
- Leviathan = 6.98% crit, so 7%
- Ratio = 1% crit = 42.86 damage
- Relentless = 400 DMG, so 9.33% crit

Would make more sense if it was between 1.5%-2% per dagger, then did something when it fired like how Grim Focus heals.

I do think this is the best candidate for Major Prophecy though, if it did that, maybe the daggers could give 2% crit damage/healing per dagger instead which is equivalent to 1% crit chance as seen on Med vs Light armor. A named buff and the equivalent of 170 damage is a fair middle ground on 1 skill where NB gives 300-400 damage.

Arizona_Steve · October 2023

Nerf or remove the Twilight Matriach. Or put it on the ground. Anything to get rid of the flapping. Or add a third pet type.

MashmalloMan · October 2023

Arizona_Steve wrote: »

Nerf or remove the Twilight Matriach. Or put it on the ground. Anything to get rid of the flapping. Or add a third pet type.

Huge missed opportunity to not provide crown store reskins for pets. I'd pay 10k crowns to reskin flappy bird into a mini storm atro.

Aces-High-82 · October 2023

2% per dagger for BA Sounds reasonable. Any further goodies might force them to replace its exclusive targeting features....which I'd like to keep.
I forgot to mention being tired loosing of weapons passives when overload ist toogled...that ult could use rework too. Somthin like reaching 30 ult treshold automatically converts your next LA to a overload using 30 ult or your HA to 7m radius AOE.

StaticWave · October 2023

MashmalloMan wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

The 2 problems I have with current Surge are

1) It limits build diversity
Like you said, Crit Surge proc chance increases when you stack DoTs, but that goes back to the issue I have with this class which is build diversity. You HAVE to stack DoTs to increase the proc chance, which limits build diversity as every Sorc build will now have to be a pseudo DoT build because that's the only way to make Crit Surge more reliable. What happens to a bursty Sorc like the old days? The majority of stamSorc builds you currently see are mDW or bow builds with multiple sources of DoTs. It just feels like a fast DK without the healing, and I don't think it fits the theme of this class which is supposed to be a highly mobile and super bursty killer (in contrast to the stealthy NB assassin).

2) It's a double edged sword and reduces in efficiency when you are playing defensive and kiting
It's a double edged sword when you mentioned that the proc chance increases when outnumbered. Yes, it does increase, but this class already lacks severely in the healing department and any potential ulti dump will make it impossible for you to recover from. If I have to throw myself into the fight to brawl to make full use of this class's healing, while not having a single burst heal to save myself in case I get ulti dumped, then does this really work efficiently?

Not only that, but the efficiency diminishes greatly when you start kiting. No people around you = no one to damage = no heals. What I find works best from my own experience 1vXing is I would slot Caltrops on my bar, drop it somewhere, and then kite them through the Caltrop zone with Hurricane and Quick Cloak ticking. That enables me to still heal from Surge while kiting, but again that goes back to the build diversity issue I mentioned because now I have to stack 3 AoE DoTs (2 of which aren't part of the class kit).

So either give Surge a 100% proc chance for a reduced tooltip, or give this class more crit chance so that other builds can still use this ability without being shoehorned into running specific setups.

Well here's where we agree, as I said, if Sorc had better inate access to crit chance, this wouldn't be as much of a problem. Finish hybridization and even a simple Stam/Crit/Health potion is going to allow us to use minor prophecy instead of having to rely on Camo Hunter or Mag/Crit/Health pots.

You're describing issues for the play style that make sense for the abundant strength of the skill and I think those drawbacks are warranted, as are Dark Deals, asking it to be guaranteed is asking for it to be destroyed.

In my view, Surge is best used when YOU are the eye of the storm, getting the benefit of a long and decent passive hot for going offensive plays into its strengths. You have to be in the thick of it or at least have some dots to proc it when you're not.

If you're a brawler, you don't need to stack a ton of dots because in theory, your are the dot (although they f'ed this by making hurricane tick on 2s).

If you're more elusive, more of a glass cannon, then you either run some dots to proc it for free when you're on the run or you don't and get less potency out of it.

I'm sorry, but to me, that is what makes it balanced, it's a trade off. Guaranteeing procs is asking it to become something it's not just because Sorc lacks an on demand hot and a burst heal not attached to a 2 bar killable pet.

Also, haven't seen this mentioned, but Sorc lacks a purge. Since dots last 20-30s now, it's easy to just completely overwhelm a Sorc to the point where their hots are essentially reduced by half because they're being consumed by dots.

Fix the core problems, instead of introducing new ones by potential reworks.

To your comments about your 2 builds, I'm not sure what to say other than you can't expect to slot everything all the time. Even classes with more named buff access run out of space for things like major expedition or major evasion.

Yeah Sorc has a harder time with it because none of our core skills have decent named buffs, but that's exactly why I proposed major breach on Curse and major prophecy on BA. Those 2 changes alone would make Sorc's easier to build for. Open up potions and skill space a little for some builds.

"The cast time is detrimental to this class's mobile playstyle."

I don't agree. We have a teleport that can get you into places others can't so you can dark deal in safety, higher innate movement speed because of minor expedition allowing us to move quickly despite not sprinting. We have Amplitude for a free 10-7% upfront damage, lots of sustain passives, and dark deal to recoup our losses in 2-3 GCDs allowing most Sorc's to build less into sustain or defence than other classes feel required to do. You can sacrifice 1 or 2 jewelry pieces for Swift, you can wear mostly medium armor, rely on dodge rolling and speed.

A cast time on Dark Deal which would normally be annoying for other classes, fits right at home on Sorc because of all the above things that compensate for it.

Agree to disagree I guess. Not expecting to convince you, I just think Crit Surge and Dark Deal are balanced very well and aren't the root of our problems. Asking them to become something completely different functionally is most likely going to nerf them into a place no one will be happy with and won't address your concerns that can be fixed in other ways.

Sorc has historically never been a true brawler though. I’ve played a 2h/SnB or DW/SnB Sorc for years and the class can’t brawl like an actual brawler. You still need to Streak a lot and have small windows where you can go offensive.

Amplitude isn’t that great considering it’s a diminishing value the lower your opponent gets. Some of the top classes currently have access to Major Berserk, which is a much better damage buff.

I don’t agree that having a teleport somehow justifies the cast time. Mist Form exists and people can in fact get to places only we can get to now. That is no longer exclusive to Sorc. After Mist Form was reworked I’ve had several fights where my opponents slotted Mist Form to get to places that only Streak could get to.

If that’s the case then the remaining 6 classes should have cast times on their core abilities since they can be just as fast as a stamsorc and can afford to slot Mist Form while having better survivability?

I know you’ve PvPed in Cyrodiil, and I’m 100% sure you’ve had many fights against people who are just as fast as you on a better class. It’s a cop out excuse to say cast times are warranted because the class has Streak. I mean, if Streak is really that powerful, then why are magSorcs complaining so much about being weak defensively?

StaticWave · October 2023

@MashmalloMan

And I get why you disagree because you prefer the class to be a DoT/multiple instances of damage class, but that’s disregarding the rest of the playstyles.

I’ve played Dizzy sorc, spin2win sorc, DoT sorc, SnB sorc, bow sorc, inferno sorc, you name it. I just don’t think it’s fair to pigeonhole sorc into another pressure based class. It just doesn’t fit the theme of the class at all.

I looked at your suggestions and 2 of them are basically overhauls of the class skills. For example:

1) Giving an on demand Hot to Dark Deal is a major overhaul because they would have to convert the burst heal to a HoT. This would be a NERF. Not only do you still have a cast time, but you now don’t have a burst heal lol

2) Making pets 1 barred is a major overhaul as they now have to remove the toggle and possibly remove the damage portion and turn the heal into something like Intensive Mender

So if you disagreed with my suggestions because they are overhauls, then I will have to disagree with those 2 too because they are also overhauls. The other suggestions sound nice and I think could help the class.

I think overall our differences come down to what we prefer in our Sorc. You obviously play Sorc as a DoT focused killing machine, while I prefer my Sorc to be a 100-0 delete type. So a good start and middle ground would be to alleviate bar space issue by giving the class some needed Major buffs/debuffs and update the passives to be more hybrid friendly.

Remiem · October 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

I don’t agree that having a teleport somehow justifies the cast time. Mist Form exists and people can in fact get to places only we can get to now. That is no longer exclusive to Sorc. After Mist Form was reworked I’ve had several fights where my opponents slotted Mist Form to get to places that only Streak could get to.

If that’s the case then the remaining 6 classes should have cast times on their core abilities since they can be just as fast as a stamsorc and can afford to slot Mist Form while having better survivability?

I know you’ve PvPed in Cyrodiil, and I’m 100% sure you’ve had many fights against people who are just as fast as you on a better class. It’s a cop out excuse to say cast times are warranted because the class has Streak. I mean, if Streak is really that powerful, then why are magSorcs complaining so much about being weak defensively?

Mist form is nowhere near as good as Streak and sorc mains need to stop pretending otherwise, both offensively and defensively (massive AoE stun >> 3 projectiles absorbed and major evasion for a couple seconds) or as a mobility tool.
Especially after the last patch that added a delay for no reason and made it completely unreliable in high ping situations, I went back to Race against time on most of my characters.

MashmalloMan · October 2023

Sorc has historically never been a true brawler though. I’ve played a 2h/SnB or DW/SnB Sorc for years and the class can’t brawl like an actual brawler. You still need to Streak a lot and have small windows where you can go offensive.

I mean yeah, that's just the type of brawler we are. We're never going to be like DK. Converting an inheritely evasive glass cannon class into a brawler is still going to keep some of the core identity. A DK is 1 of the most popular brawlers, but it can't disengage like we can. There are pro's and con's that make them feel different and removing that from Surge is just unnecessary.

Amplitude isn’t that great considering it’s a diminishing value the lower your opponent gets. Some of the top classes currently have access to Major Berserk, which is a much better damage buff.

On paper, compared to what other classes are working with it's pretty good.. but yes, you can't compare passives in a vacuum, when the core skills also provide passive power, the only power we get from our combat skills is major brutality and 8% Stam or Mag. The fact that major berserk and 300 weapon/spell damage has been handed out like candy to and DK/NB has been a major factor as to why other classes like Sorc feel forgotten.

As I said I miss old Implosion and it's a shame they deleted it instead of reworking it. A reverse execute is a dumb idea that doesn't fit Sorc and feels counter productive to actually securing any kills. At the very least, reversing it to low health instead of high health would be a nice bonus, while keeping within ZOS's flawed rework of the passive - I'd take that in a heart beat.

I don’t agree that having a teleport somehow justifies the cast time. Mist Form exists and people can in fact get to places only we can get to now. That is no longer exclusive to Sorc. After Mist Form was reworked I’ve had several fights where my opponents slotted Mist Form to get to places that only Streak could get to.

Mist form is nowhere near as useful as Streak. People could always reach places we went with a gap closer, this isn't something new and in no way takes away from the power of Sorc's evasion. Your surprise is only granted because people are apprehensive to put a gap closer on their bar for whatever reason. I for one don't like playing without 1, the 1 thing Streak can't do is go vertically 22m, gap closers can. When you combine the 2...

If that’s the case then the remaining 6 classes should have cast times on their core abilities since they can be just as fast as a stamsorc and can afford to slot Mist Form while having better survivability?

My point was Dark Deal is a borderline overloaded skill, thus the cast time is justified. I don't like cast times on ults, but this skill is fine the way it is, the drawbacks aren't noticable for Sorc's. Removing the cast time and changing it to purely burst resources or purely over time would kill it's power. I guarantee it. I certainly wouldn't expect it to keep the minor buffs that were just added.

I know you’ve PvPed in Cyrodiil, and I’m 100% sure you’ve had many fights against people who are just as fast as you on a better class. It’s a cop out excuse to say cast times are warranted because the class has Streak. I mean, if Streak is really that powerful, then why are magSorcs complaining so much about being weak defensively?

Streak isn't an I win button. Mag Sorcs have problems because shields suck, the class burst heal is attached to a 2 bar killable pet, and many skills lack value for the slot as in they don't provide named buffs so they're forced to miss out or sacrifice slots for universal skills.

Frags, Haunting Curse, Fury, and Streak have no named buff, BA does nothing for them, Hardened Ward is required over Empowered Ward to be decent, no named buff. It's a massive problem for them. There's no passive for healing, none for defence. They end up with an entire front bar with no additional effects.

Malcom's favourite build for is what probably 5-6 years STILL includes Chudan just so he can save a slot from slotting Hurricane/Boundless Storm. That's really sad to see and I feel bad for Mag Sorc mains, that speaks volumes to the state of Sorc and why we need better access to some common buffs like breach and/or prophecy.

And I get why you disagree because you prefer the class to be a DoT/multiple instances of damage class, but that’s disregarding the rest of the playstyles.

I'm specifically talking about how most of our skills are designed and what Crit Surge currently asks for, that can be Hurricanes massive AOE ticking at 1s, Crystal Weapon's 2 hits, Haunting Curse's 2 hits, Fury's 2 hits, BA's 4 hits, they all have multiple instances. For the most part, were direct damage, which is why the MA 2H rework has found a place in Sorc's kit where it hasn't in other classes.

I'm not sure how that disregards other playstyles when it's baked into the class itself and on our most important self heal. You want more flexibility, but you're asking to nerf our 2 strongest skills just to make them easier to use. It's not necessary.

I’ve played Dizzy sorc, spin2win sorc, DoT sorc, SnB sorc, bow sorc, inferno sorc, you name it. I just don’t think it’s fair to pigeonhole sorc into another pressure based class. It just doesn’t fit the theme of the class at all

Again, not saying it needs to be pressure or dot based. Adding a bit of potency to surge that was lost due to power creep and tick frequency lost, a source of major prophecy, maybe a bit higher innate crit chance somewhere, reverting hurricane's tick change, and an on demand hot/burst heal so you're not purely relying on rng.

I looked at your suggestions and 2 of them are basically overhauls of the class skills. For example:

1) Giving an on demand Hot to Dark Deal is a major overhaul because they would have to convert the burst heal to a HoT. This would be a NERF. Not only do you still have a cast time, but you now don’t have a burst heal lol

I never disagreed with you purely because you suggested overhauls. I disagreed because you're trying to overhaul 2 of our best skills to make them easier, but weaker. We don't need it. My "overhauls" are only for skills that are underused and in an objectively bad place.

I also never said Dark Deal should change to a hot. I said it should ADD a hot with the same ratio as the resources because it's in theme with what it already does. It gives upfront resources and resources over time, but only upfront health, no health over time. The ratio is 60% upfront, 40% over time. Do the same thing for health. It would be small, but decent so you're not purely relying on surge.

2) Making pets 1 barred is a major overhaul as they now have to remove the toggle and possibly remove the damage portion and turn the heal into something like Intensive Mender

Yes. These are terrible skills, dark deal and surge are not.

So if you disagreed with my suggestions because they are overhauls, then I will have to disagree with those 2 too because they are also overhauls. The other suggestions sound nice and I think could help the class.

What I said above, not disagreeing because it's specifically an overhaul, it's an overhaul that goes against how the class functions by diluting and nerfing the 2 skills in question that are actually well designed just to make them easier to use. If DD was instant and Surge was 100% they would definitely be nerfed and I'm not keen on that.

We're the only Stam class that earned 0 defensive/healing power from the hybridization changes because our pets are terrible, that needs to change. My suggestion isn't out of left field, it's been a common sentiment since 2014.

I think overall our differences come down to what we prefer in our Sorc. You obviously play Sorc as a DoT focused killing machine, while I prefer my Sorc to be a 100-0 delete type. So a good start and middle ground would be to alleviate bar space issue by giving the class some needed Major buffs/debuffs and update the passives to be more hybrid friendly.

Agreed, that is the most obvious approach I think they need to take most Sorc mains can agree on. Same problem for Necro really, but they lost their crutches with harmony bombs.

Although I actually don't consider what I play a dot Sorc. I do (or did when I played more often) try to fit at least 1 dot and decent crit chance to proc surge on cooldown. For me, that meant around 40%+ crit chance and 1 AOE dot like old MA 2H or Plaguebreak or Unleashed Terror or Carve or Caltrops. All plenty enough to proc it on CD without actually always being on top of people.

The Hurricane change was a gut punch though.

StaticWave · October 2023

Remiem wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I don’t agree that having a teleport somehow justifies the cast time. Mist Form exists and people can in fact get to places only we can get to now. That is no longer exclusive to Sorc. After Mist Form was reworked I’ve had several fights where my opponents slotted Mist Form to get to places that only Streak could get to.

If that’s the case then the remaining 6 classes should have cast times on their core abilities since they can be just as fast as a stamsorc and can afford to slot Mist Form while having better survivability?

I know you’ve PvPed in Cyrodiil, and I’m 100% sure you’ve had many fights against people who are just as fast as you on a better class. It’s a cop out excuse to say cast times are warranted because the class has Streak. I mean, if Streak is really that powerful, then why are magSorcs complaining so much about being weak defensively?

Mist form is nowhere near as good as Streak and sorc mains need to stop pretending otherwise, both offensively and defensively (massive AoE stun >> 3 projectiles absorbed and major evasion for a couple seconds) or as a mobility tool.
Especially after the last patch that added a delay for no reason and made it completely unreliable in high ping situations, I went back to Race against time on most of my characters.

So you're telling me that a massive AoE stun is some how better than 3 projectile absorbed + 4s Major Evasion + 4s Major Expedition + 6s 300 wd/sd? Yea no, I find that hard to believe lol.

The only reasons I and many Sorc mains aren't slotting Mist Form are because we don't have a burst heal to compensate for the slight delay (which it should have for balance reason), and we don't have bar space to fit a stun. I'm sorry but if I had a good burst heal and bar space for a stun I would literally drop Streak for Mist Form in a heart beat. That single ability will give me 2 crucial Major Buffs that I don't have and 300 extra wd that will carry over to front bar and get amplified even more (I have 5 Sorc abilities slotted on front bar), and since I have a burst heal I don't have to worry about being squishy and can now tolerate the slower activation.

MashmalloMan · October 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

Remiem wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I don’t agree that having a teleport somehow justifies the cast time. Mist Form exists and people can in fact get to places only we can get to now. That is no longer exclusive to Sorc. After Mist Form was reworked I’ve had several fights where my opponents slotted Mist Form to get to places that only Streak could get to.

If that’s the case then the remaining 6 classes should have cast times on their core abilities since they can be just as fast as a stamsorc and can afford to slot Mist Form while having better survivability?

I know you’ve PvPed in Cyrodiil, and I’m 100% sure you’ve had many fights against people who are just as fast as you on a better class. It’s a cop out excuse to say cast times are warranted because the class has Streak. I mean, if Streak is really that powerful, then why are magSorcs complaining so much about being weak defensively?

Mist form is nowhere near as good as Streak and sorc mains need to stop pretending otherwise, both offensively and defensively (massive AoE stun >> 3 projectiles absorbed and major evasion for a couple seconds) or as a mobility tool.
Especially after the last patch that added a delay for no reason and made it completely unreliable in high ping situations, I went back to Race against time on most of my characters.

So you're telling me that a massive AoE stun is some how better than 3 projectile absorbed + 4s Major Evasion + 4s Major Expedition + 6s 300 wd/sd? Yea no, I find that hard to believe lol.

The only reasons I and many Sorc mains aren't slotting Mist Form are because we don't have a burst heal to compensate for the slight delay (which it should have for balance reason), and we don't have bar space to fit a stun. I'm sorry but if I had a good burst heal and bar space for a stun I would literally drop Streak for Mist Form in a heart beat. That single ability will give me 2 crucial Major Buffs that I don't have and 300 extra wd that will carry over to front bar and get amplified even more (I have 5 Sorc abilities slotted on front bar), and since I have a burst heal I don't have to worry about being squishy and can now tolerate the slower activation.

I wouldn't really directly compare streak and mist form, the only thing they share is moving your character to which streak does much better. No debate. It's instant. You don't need to awkwardly aim it, always get max distance (assuming both skills don't get stuck on a pebble).

The real comparison is ball of lightning vs mist form, to that, yes, mist form provides much better defensive and offensive properties all in 1 skill because they gutted bol like a damn fish. I would drop the immobilization and snare immunity in a heartbeat to get back the infinite projectiles or a new effect like major expedition+major evasion.

Unfortunately because Boundless Storm awkwardly provides a crap source of major expedition, Sorc will never get an in class version of it on another skill so they can stack minor/major. We're forced into bow, rat, elude, or quick cloak(another crap source of major exp).

Idk how ESO got to a state where NB can stack minor+major exp in class, 300 DMG (vamp), 300 dmg (Mercilous), major prophecy (cloak), and major berserk.. all while having the strongest burst skill, strongest burst ult, strongest execute, and strongest burst heal in the game.

Incoming NB rant..

Take this in.. BA despite effectively being the same skill as Mercilous, has a tooltip of 57% the damage. Considering all the added damage bonuses NB get.. 3k flanking pen, 10% crit damage, 20% Incap.. now NBs doing 3-4x damage of a typical BA proc.. and BA lands less often because it has a 0.3s delay per dagger. Oh yeah, it burst heals too for whatever reason lol.

Oh but it gives 8% Stam.. oh yeah NB gets 8% mag passively, just wait until that gets inevitably hybridized.

You know how Malcom uses 2x Chudan to save a slot from our armor buff, NB gets that passively for using their spammable 😂.

Our burst heal takes 2 slots and can be killed. NBs burst heal is 1 slot, gives minor mending increasing all their healing by 8% plus having the +600 damage from vamp/Mercilous, better crit chance because assassination tree, better healing because of siphoning tree... but oh, Matriarch tickles you with it's passive damage and heals a second target.

Minor savagery on ANY crit damage vs minor prophecy from specifically dark magic casts..

Hey.. at least we get Minor Force right? Oh that's only Stam Sorc 😂. Sorry Mag Sorc.. also NB gets an unarmed 10% crit DMG so they can stack the 2.

Minor Berserk, that's unique right?! Oh no wait, NB gets that on their gap closer which also procs guaranteed minor vulnerability for even more damage, as if all the other bonuses I went over weren't enough.

They have in class access to empower (sorry heavy attack 1 bar Sorc impaired builds), major breach, major cowardice, guaranteed sundered, major protection, minor maim, 50% snare and guaranteed minor magickasteal in 1 dot.. randomly unique effects no other class has like guaranteed crit on a spammable and reduced dodge roll cost from a defensive skill.

Their spammable has off balance built in, so they can drop a dedicated stun skill if they want to. Oh and the best damage CP in the game for 10% off balance damage, yep, they can guarantee it for their bursy combo.

Both their in class ults stun and do hefty burst damage to boot. At least we have Dawnbreaker and Atro..

Class sets come along, and the only decently designed set is NBs, giving them up to a whopping 34% damage and healing for their siphoning tree that they don't need. I mean c'mon! Oh but I can proc an easy to avoid lightning ground dot that doesn't crit, despite being for the tree that relies on crit to heal. Laughably generic and worse by 2-3x from the strongest proc sets in the game and functionally impossible to spawn.

Only notable downside is their source of major brutality is on a skill that needs to hit an enemy and they don't have any tanky passives.

...I gotta stop while I'm ahead. Every comparison you make between the 2 classes despite originally being very similar, favours NB. There is some clear bias going on in the past 2 years, neglecting and even nerfing Necro, Templar and Sorc. To be clear, not saying NB needs to be nerfed, I'm saying they're the gold standard for how classes should be balanced.

Haunting Curse, Frags and Streak are good skills at least. We can use Overload to desync. Dark Deal gives resources upfront instead of waiting for 20s and we can hide behind Atro occasionally when enemies don't realize they can tab target you..

Turtle_Bot · October 2023

MashmalloMan wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Remiem wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I don’t agree that having a teleport somehow justifies the cast time. Mist Form exists and people can in fact get to places only we can get to now. That is no longer exclusive to Sorc. After Mist Form was reworked I’ve had several fights where my opponents slotted Mist Form to get to places that only Streak could get to.

If that’s the case then the remaining 6 classes should have cast times on their core abilities since they can be just as fast as a stamsorc and can afford to slot Mist Form while having better survivability?

I know you’ve PvPed in Cyrodiil, and I’m 100% sure you’ve had many fights against people who are just as fast as you on a better class. It’s a cop out excuse to say cast times are warranted because the class has Streak. I mean, if Streak is really that powerful, then why are magSorcs complaining so much about being weak defensively?

Mist form is nowhere near as good as Streak and sorc mains need to stop pretending otherwise, both offensively and defensively (massive AoE stun >> 3 projectiles absorbed and major evasion for a couple seconds) or as a mobility tool.
Especially after the last patch that added a delay for no reason and made it completely unreliable in high ping situations, I went back to Race against time on most of my characters.

So you're telling me that a massive AoE stun is some how better than 3 projectile absorbed + 4s Major Evasion + 4s Major Expedition + 6s 300 wd/sd? Yea no, I find that hard to believe lol.

The only reasons I and many Sorc mains aren't slotting Mist Form are because we don't have a burst heal to compensate for the slight delay (which it should have for balance reason), and we don't have bar space to fit a stun. I'm sorry but if I had a good burst heal and bar space for a stun I would literally drop Streak for Mist Form in a heart beat. That single ability will give me 2 crucial Major Buffs that I don't have and 300 extra wd that will carry over to front bar and get amplified even more (I have 5 Sorc abilities slotted on front bar), and since I have a burst heal I don't have to worry about being squishy and can now tolerate the slower activation.

I wouldn't really directly compare streak and mist form, the only thing they share is moving your character to which streak does much better. No debate. It's instant. You don't need to awkwardly aim it, always get max distance (assuming both skills don't get stuck on a pebble).

Just want to chime in here on this point, I don't know if its just me or if anyone else experiences this too, but streak seems far more susceptible to those pebbles than mist form.

The tiniest of pebbles will instantly stop streak, while mist form easily just ports over them (at least for me).

Also, something mist forming NBs can do that others cannot do (even streaking sorcs), is when you mist form down a slope you can easily cast invis mid air so you literally just poof out of existence even though you're still falling down, meanwhile streaking sorcs just sit there effectively stunned on even the smallest of stepdowns the whole fall, completely visible and vulnerable to incoming attacks.

Remiem · October 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

So you're telling me that a massive AoE stun is some how better than 3 projectile absorbed + 4s Major Evasion + 4s Major Expedition + 6s 300 wd/sd? Yea no, I find that hard to believe lol.

Yes, the best stun in the game + non negligible damage + 2% wd/sp always up is better.

StaticWave wrote: »

The only reasons I and many Sorc mains aren't slotting Mist Form are because we don't have a burst heal to compensate for the slight delay (which it should have for balance reason), and we don't have bar space to fit a stun. I'm sorry but if I had a good burst heal and bar space for a stun I would literally drop Streak for Mist Form in a heart beat. That single ability will give me 2 crucial Major Buffs that I don't have and 300 extra wd that will carry over to front bar and get amplified even more (I have 5 Sorc abilities slotted on front bar), and since I have a burst heal I don't have to worry about being squishy and can now tolerate the slower activation.

No, you wouldn't even if sorcs were given Healthy offering. The 2 buffs stamsorcs can easily get with Quick cloak and the Strike from the shadows passive is pretty much irrelevant for any class that isnt nightblade, with how clunky Mist form is and bar swapping you wouldn't have much more than 3 sec of duration to do anything with it.
But even beyond the passives and secondary effects, Mist form is just nowhere near as good as Streak as a mobility tool so using it as a reason why sorcs should receive a burst heal because other classes got a "non class Streak" is just arguing in bad faith.
Much clunkier and unreliable due to the way it works with its ground targeting (I had moments in Cyro where I mashed it for 5 sec straight for it to go off, something that never happened to me with Streak), much slower to activate and much more finicky to use to cross gaps with, the only thing it has over Streak is cost (at vamp stage 3).

MashmalloMan · October 2023

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Remiem wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I don’t agree that having a teleport somehow justifies the cast time. Mist Form exists and people can in fact get to places only we can get to now. That is no longer exclusive to Sorc. After Mist Form was reworked I’ve had several fights where my opponents slotted Mist Form to get to places that only Streak could get to.

If that’s the case then the remaining 6 classes should have cast times on their core abilities since they can be just as fast as a stamsorc and can afford to slot Mist Form while having better survivability?

I know you’ve PvPed in Cyrodiil, and I’m 100% sure you’ve had many fights against people who are just as fast as you on a better class. It’s a cop out excuse to say cast times are warranted because the class has Streak. I mean, if Streak is really that powerful, then why are magSorcs complaining so much about being weak defensively?

Mist form is nowhere near as good as Streak and sorc mains need to stop pretending otherwise, both offensively and defensively (massive AoE stun >> 3 projectiles absorbed and major evasion for a couple seconds) or as a mobility tool.
Especially after the last patch that added a delay for no reason and made it completely unreliable in high ping situations, I went back to Race against time on most of my characters.

So you're telling me that a massive AoE stun is some how better than 3 projectile absorbed + 4s Major Evasion + 4s Major Expedition + 6s 300 wd/sd? Yea no, I find that hard to believe lol.

The only reasons I and many Sorc mains aren't slotting Mist Form are because we don't have a burst heal to compensate for the slight delay (which it should have for balance reason), and we don't have bar space to fit a stun. I'm sorry but if I had a good burst heal and bar space for a stun I would literally drop Streak for Mist Form in a heart beat. That single ability will give me 2 crucial Major Buffs that I don't have and 300 extra wd that will carry over to front bar and get amplified even more (I have 5 Sorc abilities slotted on front bar), and since I have a burst heal I don't have to worry about being squishy and can now tolerate the slower activation.

I wouldn't really directly compare streak and mist form, the only thing they share is moving your character to which streak does much better. No debate. It's instant. You don't need to awkwardly aim it, always get max distance (assuming both skills don't get stuck on a pebble).

Just want to chime in here on this point, I don't know if its just me or if anyone else experiences this too, but streak seems far more susceptible to those pebbles than mist form.

The tiniest of pebbles will instantly stop streak, while mist form easily just ports over them (at least for me).

Also, something mist forming NBs can do that others cannot do (even streaking sorcs), is when you mist form down a slope you can easily cast invis mid air so you literally just poof out of existence even though you're still falling down, meanwhile streaking sorcs just sit there effectively stunned on even the smallest of stepdowns the whole fall, completely visible and vulnerable to incoming attacks.

I think that's because Steaks hit detection is essentially a straight line starting from the front of your character. Mist form doesn't have this problem because the targeting is a small circle you aim with your mouse rather than a straight (invisible) line from the front of your character.

Imagine a gun firing a bullet along the floor, like a torpedo. If there is a pebble with a jagged edge over a specific degrees they probably programmed in, then it gets jammed on that object.

There was a previous patch that aimed to fix the detection of Streak, maybe 2-3 years ago now and it made things worse.

If you're a Stam Sorc main you know what I'm talking about, but often times you'll aim streak directly at a wall maybe 4-5m in front of you so you can stay on top of your target for melee range.

This use to work flawlessly, but after the "fix", Streak will sometimes think it's too close to something and not fire at all, it will glitch out, but still waste a global cool down. It's like it gets cancelled mid cast. Luckily it doesn't waste your mag, but it doesn't stun either.

Now that bug will happen in a completely open space because it detects something to close to the player.

I've had some success in the past recreating this bug by aiming near a street lamp in towns. It's very thin, so if you aim near the lamp it will sometimes glitch streak out.

Turtle_Bot · October 2023

Never found mist form to be all that clunky myself.

It's targeting is fine, and practically speaking, just as fast when using auto ground cast (from the in game settings menu).

I can do every single trick with mist form that I can do on streak (turn mid travel, jump at the end, etc etc), much easier too, and there are a few more tricks with mist form that can't be done with streak, especially on a NB (as if they didn't have enough unique/strong interactions already).

Turtle_Bot · October 2023

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Remiem wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I don’t agree that having a teleport somehow justifies the cast time. Mist Form exists and people can in fact get to places only we can get to now. That is no longer exclusive to Sorc. After Mist Form was reworked I’ve had several fights where my opponents slotted Mist Form to get to places that only Streak could get to.

If that’s the case then the remaining 6 classes should have cast times on their core abilities since they can be just as fast as a stamsorc and can afford to slot Mist Form while having better survivability?

I know you’ve PvPed in Cyrodiil, and I’m 100% sure you’ve had many fights against people who are just as fast as you on a better class. It’s a cop out excuse to say cast times are warranted because the class has Streak. I mean, if Streak is really that powerful, then why are magSorcs complaining so much about being weak defensively?

Mist form is nowhere near as good as Streak and sorc mains need to stop pretending otherwise, both offensively and defensively (massive AoE stun >> 3 projectiles absorbed and major evasion for a couple seconds) or as a mobility tool.
Especially after the last patch that added a delay for no reason and made it completely unreliable in high ping situations, I went back to Race against time on most of my characters.

So you're telling me that a massive AoE stun is some how better than 3 projectile absorbed + 4s Major Evasion + 4s Major Expedition + 6s 300 wd/sd? Yea no, I find that hard to believe lol.

The only reasons I and many Sorc mains aren't slotting Mist Form are because we don't have a burst heal to compensate for the slight delay (which it should have for balance reason), and we don't have bar space to fit a stun. I'm sorry but if I had a good burst heal and bar space for a stun I would literally drop Streak for Mist Form in a heart beat. That single ability will give me 2 crucial Major Buffs that I don't have and 300 extra wd that will carry over to front bar and get amplified even more (I have 5 Sorc abilities slotted on front bar), and since I have a burst heal I don't have to worry about being squishy and can now tolerate the slower activation.

I wouldn't really directly compare streak and mist form, the only thing they share is moving your character to which streak does much better. No debate. It's instant. You don't need to awkwardly aim it, always get max distance (assuming both skills don't get stuck on a pebble).

Just want to chime in here on this point, I don't know if its just me or if anyone else experiences this too, but streak seems far more susceptible to those pebbles than mist form.

The tiniest of pebbles will instantly stop streak, while mist form easily just ports over them (at least for me).

Also, something mist forming NBs can do that others cannot do (even streaking sorcs), is when you mist form down a slope you can easily cast invis mid air so you literally just poof out of existence even though you're still falling down, meanwhile streaking sorcs just sit there effectively stunned on even the smallest of stepdowns the whole fall, completely visible and vulnerable to incoming attacks.

I think that's because Steaks hit detection is essentially a straight line starting from the front of your character. Mist form doesn't have this problem because the targeting is a small circle you aim with your mouse rather than a straight (invisible) line from the front of your character.

Imagine a gun firing a bullet along the floor, like a torpedo. If there is a pebble with a jagged edge over a specific degrees they probably programmed in, then it gets jammed on that object.

There was a previous patch that aimed to fix the detection of Streak, maybe 2-3 years ago now and it made things worse.

If you're a Stam Sorc main you know what I'm talking about, but often times you'll aim streak directly at a wall maybe 4-5m in front of you so you can stay on top of your target for melee range.

This use to work flawlessly, but after the "fix", Streak will sometimes think it's too close to something and not fire at all, it will glitch out, but still waste a global cool down. It's like it gets cancelled mid cast. Luckily it doesn't waste your mag, but it doesn't stun either.

Now that bug will happen in a completely open space because it detects something to close to the player.

I've had some success in the past recreating this bug by aiming near a street lamp in towns. It's very thin, so if you aim near the lamp it will sometimes glitch streak out.

Yeah, I've noticed that a lot myself, streak just not firing. It's the same for magsorc too, we just don't have the stamina to roll out of that situation instead of having to recast streak is the main difference there between magsorc and stamsorc

MashmalloMan · October 2023

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Remiem wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I don’t agree that having a teleport somehow justifies the cast time. Mist Form exists and people can in fact get to places only we can get to now. That is no longer exclusive to Sorc. After Mist Form was reworked I’ve had several fights where my opponents slotted Mist Form to get to places that only Streak could get to.

If that’s the case then the remaining 6 classes should have cast times on their core abilities since they can be just as fast as a stamsorc and can afford to slot Mist Form while having better survivability?

I know you’ve PvPed in Cyrodiil, and I’m 100% sure you’ve had many fights against people who are just as fast as you on a better class. It’s a cop out excuse to say cast times are warranted because the class has Streak. I mean, if Streak is really that powerful, then why are magSorcs complaining so much about being weak defensively?

Mist form is nowhere near as good as Streak and sorc mains need to stop pretending otherwise, both offensively and defensively (massive AoE stun >> 3 projectiles absorbed and major evasion for a couple seconds) or as a mobility tool.
Especially after the last patch that added a delay for no reason and made it completely unreliable in high ping situations, I went back to Race against time on most of my characters.

So you're telling me that a massive AoE stun is some how better than 3 projectile absorbed + 4s Major Evasion + 4s Major Expedition + 6s 300 wd/sd? Yea no, I find that hard to believe lol.

The only reasons I and many Sorc mains aren't slotting Mist Form are because we don't have a burst heal to compensate for the slight delay (which it should have for balance reason), and we don't have bar space to fit a stun. I'm sorry but if I had a good burst heal and bar space for a stun I would literally drop Streak for Mist Form in a heart beat. That single ability will give me 2 crucial Major Buffs that I don't have and 300 extra wd that will carry over to front bar and get amplified even more (I have 5 Sorc abilities slotted on front bar), and since I have a burst heal I don't have to worry about being squishy and can now tolerate the slower activation.

I wouldn't really directly compare streak and mist form, the only thing they share is moving your character to which streak does much better. No debate. It's instant. You don't need to awkwardly aim it, always get max distance (assuming both skills don't get stuck on a pebble).

Just want to chime in here on this point, I don't know if its just me or if anyone else experiences this too, but streak seems far more susceptible to those pebbles than mist form.

The tiniest of pebbles will instantly stop streak, while mist form easily just ports over them (at least for me).

Also, something mist forming NBs can do that others cannot do (even streaking sorcs), is when you mist form down a slope you can easily cast invis mid air so you literally just poof out of existence even though you're still falling down, meanwhile streaking sorcs just sit there effectively stunned on even the smallest of stepdowns the whole fall, completely visible and vulnerable to incoming attacks.

I think that's because Steaks hit detection is essentially a straight line starting from the front of your character. Mist form doesn't have this problem because the targeting is a small circle you aim with your mouse rather than a straight (invisible) line from the front of your character.

Imagine a gun firing a bullet along the floor, like a torpedo. If there is a pebble with a jagged edge over a specific degrees they probably programmed in, then it gets jammed on that object.

There was a previous patch that aimed to fix the detection of Streak, maybe 2-3 years ago now and it made things worse.

If you're a Stam Sorc main you know what I'm talking about, but often times you'll aim streak directly at a wall maybe 4-5m in front of you so you can stay on top of your target for melee range.

This use to work flawlessly, but after the "fix", Streak will sometimes think it's too close to something and not fire at all, it will glitch out, but still waste a global cool down. It's like it gets cancelled mid cast. Luckily it doesn't waste your mag, but it doesn't stun either.

Now that bug will happen in a completely open space because it detects something to close to the player.

I've had some success in the past recreating this bug by aiming near a street lamp in towns. It's very thin, so if you aim near the lamp it will sometimes glitch streak out.

Yeah, I've noticed that a lot myself, streak just not firing. It's the same for magsorc too, we just don't have the stamina to roll out of that situation instead of having to recast streak is the main difference there between magsorc and stamsorc

True, shouldn't have said stam specifically, it's just more common. I just imagined most mag sorcs attempt to keep their distance.

At the very least, they fixed the issue with ground skills pausing your characters momentum, that felt terrible on streak and I had been asking for a fix for years. Streak feels much more fluid now. Made me really hate Barbed Trap for PvE.

ZhuJiuyin · October 2023

Does anyone know the last time Sorcer appeared in an official live broadcast?
We repeatedly reiterated all the shortcomings of Sorcer and put forward our ideas, but the official attitude towards Sorcer was just unfamiliar and indifferent.
Remember what they said about the Sorcer set? "There are ongoing discussions on which route the set will go" As if giving Monolith of Storms critical damage is a very expensive gift, most similar sets can deal critical damage, right? This is obviously a BUG and should not be treated as buffs and given to Sorcer!
Monolith of Storms completely needs rework and buffs, just like the rest of Sorcer's abilities.

MashmalloMan · October 2023

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Does anyone know the last time Sorcer appeared in an official live broadcast?
We repeatedly reiterated all the shortcomings of Sorcer and put forward our ideas, but the official attitude towards Sorcer was just unfamiliar and indifferent.
Remember what they said about the Sorcer set? "There are ongoing discussions on which route the set will go" As if giving Monolith of Storms critical damage is a very expensive gift, most similar sets can deal critical damage, right? This is obviously a BUG and should not be treated as buffs and given to Sorcer!
Monolith of Storms completely needs rework and buffs, just like the rest of Sorcer's abilities.

Maybe I'm grasping at straws, but I think their comment was acknowledging the missing standard that should be applicable to the set. The only reason it wasn't fixed was they're still on the fence about whether it should simply crit as it was meant to with its current design (limited to 1 beam per enemy) or do as some are asking, rework it to have it stack/multiply since you can have up to 3 links at a time.

To them, we can't have both.

To me, it should obviously crit, even at the cost of some sort of multiplier or stacking the links. The set is meant for Storm Calling, of which has Crit Surge, of which tells Sorcs to build into Crit Chance and/or multiple instances of damage to heal themselves.

How counter intutive is it to make a class set that doesn't work nicely with the design of the class. Like what? There is no debate here. It should be obvious to developers handling our class, not some sort of debate behind the scenes. I think thats the true travesty here.

ZhuJiuyin · October 2023

Yes, from the design of Monolith of Storms, we can see that the official did not understand the sorcer at all, so that they initially planned to design a set that could not cause critical hits.
There are many such examples. Remember what the official gave us when the sorcer asked for buffs? Stuff the almost useless Minor Berserk & Minor Force into Dark Exchange (Conversion /Deal)! And these two buffs already have multiple sources! Some are even better. (Combat Prayer, Kinras's Wrath, Grave Inevitability, Gryphon's Ferocity, Medusa, Trap Beast, Tzogvin's Warband, Velothi Ur-Mage's Amulet)

More ironically, the sorcer lacks Major Prophecy, but gives Minor Force to increase Critical Damage.

StaticWave · October 2023

Remiem wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

So you're telling me that a massive AoE stun is some how better than 3 projectile absorbed + 4s Major Evasion + 4s Major Expedition + 6s 300 wd/sd? Yea no, I find that hard to believe lol.

Yes, the best stun in the game + non negligible damage + 2% wd/sp always up is better.

StaticWave wrote: »

The only reasons I and many Sorc mains aren't slotting Mist Form are because we don't have a burst heal to compensate for the slight delay (which it should have for balance reason), and we don't have bar space to fit a stun. I'm sorry but if I had a good burst heal and bar space for a stun I would literally drop Streak for Mist Form in a heart beat. That single ability will give me 2 crucial Major Buffs that I don't have and 300 extra wd that will carry over to front bar and get amplified even more (I have 5 Sorc abilities slotted on front bar), and since I have a burst heal I don't have to worry about being squishy and can now tolerate the slower activation.

No, you wouldn't even if sorcs were given Healthy offering. The 2 buffs stamsorcs can easily get with Quick cloak and the Strike from the shadows passive is pretty much irrelevant for any class that isnt nightblade, with how clunky Mist form is and bar swapping you wouldn't have much more than 3 sec of duration to do anything with it.
But even beyond the passives and secondary effects, Mist form is just nowhere near as good as Streak as a mobility tool so using it as a reason why sorcs should receive a burst heal because other classes got a "non class Streak" is just arguing in bad faith.
Much clunkier and unreliable due to the way it works with its ground targeting (I had moments in Cyro where I mashed it for 5 sec straight for it to go off, something that never happened to me with Streak), much slower to activate and much more finicky to use to cross gaps with, the only thing it has over Streak is cost (at vamp stage 3).

No, the best stun in the game is Fossilize. Yes, it’s single target, but it is also unblockable/undodgable and immobilizes you afterwards, and doesn’t require aiming.

Also, you can’t be serious to say the 2% wd is better than 300 wd lol. First of all, yes it’s always up, but with the condition that you have to be on that bar. That means you won’t get the 2% if you swap to another bar. 300 wd from Mist Form will carry over to the other bar, and having it last 6s means you can just use it every 6s like how Streak users would use it every 7s to stun people lol.

Second of all, the 2% wd is not even comparable to 300 wd in terms of value. For that 2% wd to give an equal value, you would need to have your BASE wd to be 15000 (2% * 15000 = 300). I’m actually going to break it down mathematically for you to see just how wrong you are.

Let’s use my build for example. I currently have 7.3k weapon damage fully buffed. That’s a respectable amount for most builds. Say, I remove all the % wd modifiers to find my base wd value. That’s 10% from medium armor, 20% from Major Brut, 3% from Dawnbreaker, and 8% from slotting 4 Sorc skills, totaling 41%.

7300 - (7300 * 41%) = 4307 wd.

That is my base wd without a single modifier. That’s still 10693 wd short of the required 15k base wd for 2% modifier to give an equal wd value to 300 wd.

Not only that, but this 300 wd ALSO GETS BUFFED by my 41% wd modifier. That’s 423 wd with modifiers, making the comparison even worse for the 2% value. For that 2% value to be equal, it would require you to have a 21150 BASE wd value. Sorry lol, that is never going to happen.

I said I wouldn’t use Mist because I need 2 conditions to be met: 1) I need a burst heal, and 2) I need bar space for a stun.

I run a shield, so that can be thrown out for something like Healthy Offering. However the 2nd condition hasnt been met yet, and that is what keeps me from slotting Mist on Sorc. I would 100% slot Mist if Sorc gets Off Balance for one of its offensive ability.

Remiem · October 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

No, the best stun in the game is Fossilize. Yes, it’s single target, but it is also unblockable/undodgable and immobilizes you afterwards, and doesn’t require aiming.

Most DKs go for Shattering rocks these days so Fossilize's root must not be that big of deal, it's single target and very short range but yeah it's a great stun too, and lol at Streak needing aiming with its massive AoE.

StaticWave wrote: »

Also, you can’t be serious to say the 2% wd is better than 300 wd lol. First of all, yes it’s always up, but with the condition that you have to be on that bar. That means you won’t get the 2% if you swap to another bar. 300 wd from Mist Form will carry over to the other bar, and having it last 6s means you can just use it every 6s like how Streak users would use it every 7s to stun people lol.

Second of all, the 2% wd is not even comparable to 300 wd in terms of value. For that 2% wd to give an equal value, you would need to have your BASE wd to be 15000 (2% * 15000 = 300). I’m actually going to break it down mathematically for you to see just how wrong you are.
Let’s use my build for example. I currently have 7.3k weapon damage fully buffed. That’s a respectable amount for most builds. Say, I remove all the % wd modifiers to find my base wd value. That’s 10% from medium armor, 20% from Major Brut, 3% from Dawnbreaker, and 8% from slotting 4 Sorc skills, totaling 41%.

7300 - (7300 * 41%) = 4307 wd.

That is my base wd without a single modifier. That’s still 10693 wd short of the required 15k base wd for 2% modifier to give an equal wd value to 300 wd.

Not only that, but this 300 wd ALSO GETS BUFFED by my 41% wd modifier. That’s 423 wd with modifiers, making the comparison even worse for the 2% value. For that 2% value to be equal, it would require you to have a 21150 BASE wd value. Sorry lol, that is never going to happen.

I am, I don't care about mathemagician tricks and what looks good on the UESP build editor, I care about what actually works in game. The 2% is always there while if you're not a nightblade the Strike from the shadows buff most likely wont be up when you need it the most.
And you streak every 7 sec because you have a very good reason to do so (the best stun in the game), you certainly wont waste gcds mist forming every 6 gcds just to keep that buff up.

StaticWave wrote: »

I said I wouldn’t use Mist because I need 2 conditions to be met: 1) I need a burst heal, and 2) I need bar space for a stun.

I run a shield, so that can be thrown out for something like Healthy Offering. However the 2nd condition hasnt been met yet, and that is what keeps me from slotting Mist on Sorc. I would 100% slot Mist if Sorc gets Off Balance for one of its offensive ability.

Well if you have a flex spot then replace Streak with Mist form and use that flex spot for Turn evil for your stun. And for the burst heal, you play stamsorc, you should be used to surviving with just Crit surge, Vigor and Dark deal. Play with it for like 1-2 hours and tell me Mist form is even close to Streak.
Like I said, beyond the passives and secondary effects, one skill is responsive and does its primary function well the other is an unresponsive trashfire of a skill that often gets you killed because of how it works, anyone who actually used it in Cyro for an extended amount of time realized it.

CGPsaint · October 2023

Arizona_Steve wrote: »

Nerf or remove the Twilight Matriach. Or put it on the ground. Anything to get rid of the flapping. Or add a third pet type.

Use the Nixad model for the Matriarch and we're golden. No health bar and doesn't impact targeting the player. Done.

StaticWave · October 2023

Remiem wrote: »

Most DKs go for Shattering rocks these days so Fossilize's root must not be that big of deal, it's single target and very short range but yeah it's a great stun too, and lol at Streak needing aiming with its massive AoE.

Shattering Rocks gives a fat heal and is also unblockable and does not require aiming.

Massive AoE? Lol. That's exaggerating. At best the width of the AoE is 5m, and that's pushing it. Also, what you said about Mist Form being "completely unreliable in high ping situations" literally applies to Streak. Streak is extremely unreliable in high ping situations and that's one of the biggest reasons why I stopped Streaking as much when I went from 100 ping to 280 ping.

Remiem wrote: »

I am, I don't care about mathemagician tricks and what looks good on the UESP build editor, I care about what actually works in game. The 2% is always there while if you're not a nightblade the Strike from the shadows buff most likely wont be up when you need it the most.
And you streak every 7 sec because you have a very good reason to do so (the best stun in the game), you certainly wont waste gcds mist forming every 6 gcds just to keep that buff up.

It's not even a math trick lol. You claimed that 2% wd is better than a flat 300 wd, and I just showed you mathematically why it's not the case. That 2% wd would need to be a 6% modifier, or your base wd would need to be 15000 for your statement to be correct.

And why would that be any different on a NB? You are still going to use Cloak every 6s to re-proc the 300 wd passive. You can just as easily use Mist Form every 6s to re-proc the wd passive and also give yourself Major Evasion + Major Expedition. It's literally not that hard to keep up.

Also, your argument about 2% wd being there at all times falls short when you slot it on back bar. This is what I currently have on my bar:

Even if I put Streak front bar, I'm not going to gain an extra 2% wd because I already got that through slotting 4 Sorc abilities. 300 wd from Mist would have been much better than Streak in that scenario.

Remiem wrote: »

Well if you have a flex spot then replace Streak with Mist form and use that flex spot for Turn evil for your stun. And for the burst heal, you play stamsorc, you should be used to surviving with just Crit surge, Vigor and Dark deal. Play with it for like 1-2 hours and tell me Mist form is even close to Streak.

I would have no burst heal if I tried your suggestion. If you think a stamsorc can survive without a burst heal in the current meta you are very mistaken. Even the meta proc stamsorc build still has a form of burst heal (Dragon's Appetite). How do you expect to recover from an unsuspecting burst without an instant cast burst heal lol? Dark Deal channel takes too long and by the time you're finished casting it you're probably already dead.

Remiem wrote: »

Like I said, beyond the passives and secondary effects, one skill is responsive and does its primary function well the other is an unresponsive trashfire of a skill that often gets you killed because of how it works, anyone who actually used it in Cyro for an extended amount of time realized it.

I literally watched a Warden kite multiple people with Mist Form and Bird of Prey in Cyrodiil, and recorded it too. Here's the link:

https://youtu.be/Tj_y31QG5-c

He's literally capable of all the jukes and kiting of a Sorc while also having better survivability with Warden heals. Like I don't need to even explain this point, as the evidence is in the video lol.