It's time to uphold NB Cloak to the same standards!

Tonturri

Alharion wrote: »

Many people here forget that the NB doesn't have a spell giving 5k resistance, or a solid shield like most other classes with a shield or even several, so the NB's stealth is pretty much its only defence, and the NB is a fairly technical class compared to other classes that can do everything with little or no difficulty.

Yeah, they have their armor buff as a passive that procs the buff for 6 seconds baseline +1.5 sec per heavy armor piece whenever they cast a Shadow skill. It's quite nice.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

HidesInPlainSight wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

red_emu wrote: »

If cloak was to receive a ramping up cost, they would need to make a viable way to stop roll dodge and streak as well, and don't say "just stun them", as this grants CC immunity. NB can be reliably pulled out of cloak every 1 GCD, there is no way to reliably stop someone who can roll dodge 18 times in a row (which is pretty much standard in PvP, despite the ramping up cost).

Either that, or introduce a detection immunity cool down. Then it would be a fair game with ramping up costs.

It's called a gap closer. Have you ever been chased by someone with a gap closer as a sorc? I have, and it's pretty obnoxious.

You can't just rely on only Streak to get away. You have to combine Streak and fast movement speed. Streak only serves to create enough distance so that you can run away. Streaking 3x in a row without movement speed to back it up doesn't do anything but waste your magicka, while the other dude with a faster movement speed can just sprint up to you for barely 1k stam cost.

You need movement speed to get away fast enough while in cloak, or you'll be within range of detect skills. I see nothing wrong with cloak having a ramping cost at all.

Ball of Lightning really should have major expedition tbh

Id be all for counters to cloak though as long as they came with fixes to cloaks to reliability. I get annoyed with gankers just as much as the next guy.

Ramping cost could work but personally I think id rather detect skills become a toggle with the cost be the same as now just split over the time its used for. Maybe up the radius to 7 meters to fit the new melee range so pretty much if you can hit them you can see them.

Lol no it shouldn't. Sorcs do not need any more mobility. They are already the highest mobility class in the game and that is coming from a player with 6 sorcs,

All they need to do is make skills that reveal stealthed players not trash. You have better luck spamming Vigor or whatever area of effect skill with a direct "dmg" aspect then to use Hunter / Light / Flare to reveal after a failed gank.

Half the time you reveal the player with a skill that says they can't stealth again for a period of time, they can stealth immediately again.

Exactly how are Sorcerer's the most mobile? they only have 2 abilities that grant any sort of movement, Bolt Escape and the morphs of Lightning Form, one which only grants Minor Expedition and the other Major Expedition.

Meanwhile Nightblades have a Gap Closer, a Teleport, a class ability that grants permanent minor expedition when slotted and an ability that grants major expedition.

HidesInPlainSight

Tontu[quote= wrote:

HidesInPlainSight wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

red_emu wrote: »

If cloak was to receive a ramping up cost, they would need to make a viable way to stop roll dodge and streak as well, and don't say "just stun them", as this grants CC immunity. NB can be reliably pulled out of cloak every 1 GCD, there is no way to reliably stop someone who can roll dodge 18 times in a row (which is pretty much standard in PvP, despite the ramping up cost).

Either that, or introduce a detection immunity cool down. Then it would be a fair game with ramping up costs.

It's called a gap closer. Have you ever been chased by someone with a gap closer as a sorc? I have, and it's pretty obnoxious.

You can't just rely on only Streak to get away. You have to combine Streak and fast movement speed. Streak only serves to create enough distance so that you can run away. Streaking 3x in a row without movement speed to back it up doesn't do anything but waste your magicka, while the other dude with a faster movement speed can just sprint up to you for barely 1k stam cost.

You need movement speed to get away fast enough while in cloak, or you'll be within range of detect skills. I see nothing wrong with cloak having a ramping cost at all.

Ball of Lightning really should have major expedition tbh

Id be all for counters to cloak though as long as they came with fixes to cloaks to reliability. I get annoyed with gankers just as much as the next guy.

Ramping cost could work but personally I think id rather detect skills become a toggle with the cost be the same as now just split over the time its used for. Maybe up the radius to 7 meters to fit the new melee range so pretty much if you can hit them you can see them.

Lol no it shouldn't. Sorcs do not need any more mobility. They are already the highest mobility class in the game and that is coming from a player with 6 sorcs,

All they need to do is make skills that reveal stealthed players not trash. You have better luck spamming Vigor or whatever area of effect skill with a direct "dmg" aspect then to use Hunter / Light / Flare to reveal after a failed gank.

Half the time you reveal the player with a skill that says they can't stealth again for a period of time, they can stealth immediately again.

Exactly how are Sorcerer's the most mobile? they only have 2 abilities that grant any sort of movement, Bolt Escape and the morphs of Lightning Form, one which only grants Minor Expedition and the other Major Expedition.

Meanwhile Nightblades have a Gap Closer, a Teleport, a class ability that grants permanent minor expedition when slotted and an ability that grants major expedition.

Streak beats everything else for mobility, nothing else even remotely comes close. Major and Minor expedition are accessible to every class. Streak is a gap closer, stun, damage reduction / avoidance, damage skill, and the best mobility skill the game. It is also the most consistent way to pull a NB out of stealth via skill.

Good NBs are not spamming cloak, they are cloaking, repositioning and entering stealth via crouching. Movement speed is the only reason why cloaks is good. Without movement speed you get pulled out of stealth damn near almost everytime.

Everything you listed NB as having, sorcs have as well, built into 2 skills, Hurricane, and Streak.

Weckless

Im sorry i know this comment is messed up but this is my 5th time editing it and im done with this over complicated ***

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Alharion wrote: »

Many people here forget that the NB doesn't have a spell giving 5k resistance, or a solid shield like most other classes with a shield or even several, so the NB's stealth is pretty much its only defence, and the NB is a fairly technical class compared to other classes that can do everything with little or no difficulty.

What? You get Major Resolve for free on a Nightblade by using any Shadow abilities, like Concealed Weapon, or Cloak. Nightblade has the easiest access to the most important defense buff in the game, and for free baked into every build with no ability slot sacrifice, something you would think belongs to either DK or Templar.

So then, if you want to double down on your resolve, Nightblade has an ability called Blur that gives Minor Resolve with Major Evasion (20% AoE Mitigation) and free roll dodge reductions, hands down one of the best abilities in the game for defense.

So that’s Minor and Major Resolve, Major Evasion, and 10% Roll Dodge cost reduction every time you take direct damage. Nice.

To be fair most armor buffs are great skills so I wouldnt necessarily say it's "taking up a bar slot" like it's a bad skill or something.

Vulkunne wrote: »

Just got back from Imperial City. First of all its true what they say in that it is really competitive now lol

Secondly, my NB spent most of its time there getting pulled out of cloak and dying from no burst heal. Buff NB.

And no ranged magblade is not competitive. Being a nuisance is not the same. Swallow soul having a travel time should be removed because it's not a projectile. You're ripping the targets soul out and pulling it back to you, the attack starts from the target the only projectile is their soul on its way back to heal you.

Weckless wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Alharion wrote: »

Many people here forget that the NB doesn't have a spell giving 5k resistance, or a solid shield like most other classes with a shield or even several, so the NB's stealth is pretty much its only defence, and the NB is a fairly technical class compared to other classes that can do everything with little or no difficulty.

What? You get Major Resolve for free on a Nightblade by using any Shadow abilities, like Concealed Weapon, or Cloak. Nightblade has the easiest access to the most important defense buff in the game, and for free baked into every build with no ability slot sacrifice, something you would think belongs to either DK or Templar.

So then, if you want to double down on your resolve, Nightblade has an ability called Blur that gives Minor Resolve with Major Evasion (20% AoE Mitigation) and free roll dodge reductions, hands down one of the best abilities in the game for defense.

So that’s Minor and Major Resolve, Major Evasion, and 10% Roll Dodge cost reduction every time you take direct damage. Nice.

To be fair most armor are great skills so I wouldnt necessarily say it's "taking up a bar slot" like it's a bad skill or something.

Vulkunne wrote: »

Just got back from Imperial City. First of all its true what they say in that it is really competitive now lol

Secondly, my NB spent most of its time there getting pulled out of cloak and dying from no burst heal. Buff NB.

And no ranged magblade is not competitive. Being a nuisance is not the same. Swallow soul having a travel time should be removed because it's not a projectile. You're ripping the targets soul out and pulling it back to you, the attack starts from the target the only projectile is their soul on its way back to heal you.

Tyrant_Tim

Weckless wrote: »

To be fair most armor are great skills so I wouldnt necessarily say it's "taking up a bar slot" like it's a bad skill or something.

Yet having to throw an ugly Spiked Armor on my bar prevents me from slotting Igneous Weapons, a 20% increase to damage for a whole minute that buffs my entire group, and remember, ZOS did a balance pass on the game with a spreadsheet, by their logic, Spiked Armor = Igneous Weapons, and we all know that little 6k shield or less than 10k DoT over 20 seconds isn’t putting the weight on the ability, it’s the Major Resolve.

So yes, it’s a sacrifice that every other class deals with, so it’s disingenuous to say Nightblades are struggling with defense, especially when you start taking the whole picture into account.

RedFireDisco

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

To be fair most armor are great skills so I wouldnt necessarily say it's "taking up a bar slot" like it's a bad skill or something.

Yet having to throw an ugly Spiked Armor on my bar prevents me from slotting Igneous Weapons, a 20% increase to damage for a whole minute that buffs my entire group, and remember, ZOS did a balance pass on the game with a spreadsheet, by their logic, Spiked Armor = Igneous Weapons, and we all know that little 6k shield or less than 10k DoT over 20 seconds isn’t putting the weight on the ability, it’s the Major Resolve.

So yes, it’s a sacrifice that every other class deals with, so it’s disingenuous to say Nightblades are struggling with defense, especially when you start taking the whole picture into account.

As if the resolve bonus is the be all end all of defense. Shields, armor passives, health bonuses, damage mitigation bonuses, and more, matter.

NB in particularly MagNb have less armor because if they do not build for damage they do far less than anyone and their crit bonus is reliant on cloak. So, you need a lot of mag regen to enable a 3 second cloak for very long.

But cloak by itself is NEVER enough because 100% of good players know how to kill an NB without speed, so, NBs have to spec more into speed like swift jewelry.

But you can be fast and cloaky or do damage but not both unlike a DK that can spec to almost complete immortality and still kill many things.

Take your DK vs a cloaking magblade and I'll give you money if you lose.

Xandreia_

Vulkunne wrote: »

Just got back from Imperial City. First of all its true what they say in that it is really competitive now lol

Secondly, my NB spent most of its time there getting pulled out of cloak and dying from no burst heal. Buff NB.

No burst heal? Nb has the best burst heal in the game 😂

Tyrant_Tim

RedFireDisco wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

To be fair most armor are great skills so I wouldnt necessarily say it's "taking up a bar slot" like it's a bad skill or something.

Yet having to throw an ugly Spiked Armor on my bar prevents me from slotting Igneous Weapons, a 20% increase to damage for a whole minute that buffs my entire group, and remember, ZOS did a balance pass on the game with a spreadsheet, by their logic, Spiked Armor = Igneous Weapons, and we all know that little 6k shield or less than 10k DoT over 20 seconds isn’t putting the weight on the ability, it’s the Major Resolve.

So yes, it’s a sacrifice that every other class deals with, so it’s disingenuous to say Nightblades are struggling with defense, especially when you start taking the whole picture into account.

As if the resolve bonus is the be all end all of defense. Shields, armor passives, health bonuses, damage mitigation bonuses, and more, matter.

NB in particularly MagNb have less armor because if they do not build for damage they do far less than anyone and their crit bonus is reliant on cloak. So, you need a lot of mag regen to enable a 3 second cloak for very long.

But cloak by itself is NEVER enough because 100% of good players know how to kill an NB without speed, so, NBs have to spec more into speed like swift jewelry.

But you can be fast and cloaky or do damage but not both unlike a DK that can spec to almost complete immortality and still kill many things.

Take your DK vs a cloaking magblade and I'll give you money if you lose.

DK is only one of the classes I play, and hardly at that as I absolutely hate the appearance of half of their kit and the best looking abilities, like Wings, are not comparable to the utility of it’s other ones, and outside of running a Chudan you’re stuck looking like a porcupine.

My three go-to classes currently are Necromancer, Templar, and you could probably guess it… Nightblade.

Which is how I referenced the in-class “passive” Major Resolve and Blur, the only in-class ability in the game that provides Major Evasion a free 20% reduction of all AoE damage which is the vast majority of ultimates while also applying a free Dodge ICD reset, I could also bring up Power Extraction that applies Minor Cowardice while providing Minor Courage reducing my opponents damage and healing while buffing my own, and Major Cowardice from Mass Hysteria which by itself takes away a whole 5th piece of a damage set from someone, last I checked, there’s no ability in the game that provides Major Courage, while I can frivolously take that amount of damage and healing from other players in an AoE roll-catching hard stun.

You say Cloak by itself, but Cloak is never by itself, as I’ve mentioned it earlier in the thread, it’s how the ability synergizes with the rest of it’s very tanky ability kit when used properly.

Edit: Sorry, I forgot Minor Maim from Summon Shade aswell, which is another damage debuff that’s applicable to an opponent.

Tommy_The_Gun

Xandreia_ wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

Just got back from Imperial City. First of all its true what they say in that it is really competitive now lol

Secondly, my NB spent most of its time there getting pulled out of cloak and dying from no burst heal. Buff NB.

No burst heal? Nb has the best burst heal in the game 😂

To be fair, the heal is strong, but...
1. One healing ability is a morph of Cloak that does not provide invisibility - so you have to use other healing if you want to have iconic class feature.
2. The other healing ability requires light/heavy attacking stack of 5, that all have to hit - if those are dodged it won't count. lt also requires you to be in combat and on melee range. So you actively need to be fighting someone. Not only that, but melee range is something like up to 7 meters. In order to receive a heal you need to hit a target with bow proc. And bow proc can be dodged, as it is relatively slow moving projectile. If it is dodged then target receives no damage and you receive no healing, but you lose all of the LA/HA stacks & resources it costed to cast.

...So, since it has so many hoops you need to jump through and kiss-curse effects build in as it is basically a risk vs reward yolo skill, I can totally understand why it is strong. It is not like Templar or Warden or DK or Sorc that hit a button and they can reliably heal themselves. If you look at all of the NB healing abilities, for the most part they all have this "thing" that you need to deal damage in order to be healed, with only exception being Dark Cloak, but as mentioned earlier - you no longer can use invisibility if you chose that morph and it is clearly made with PvE in mind as it has this "if you don't move, the heal is stronger" stuff.

RedFireDisco

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

RedFireDisco wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

To be fair most armor are great skills so I wouldnt necessarily say it's "taking up a bar slot" like it's a bad skill or something.

Yet having to throw an ugly Spiked Armor on my bar prevents me from slotting Igneous Weapons, a 20% increase to damage for a whole minute that buffs my entire group, and remember, ZOS did a balance pass on the game with a spreadsheet, by their logic, Spiked Armor = Igneous Weapons, and we all know that little 6k shield or less than 10k DoT over 20 seconds isn’t putting the weight on the ability, it’s the Major Resolve.

So yes, it’s a sacrifice that every other class deals with, so it’s disingenuous to say Nightblades are struggling with defense, especially when you start taking the whole picture into account.

As if the resolve bonus is the be all end all of defense. Shields, armor passives, health bonuses, damage mitigation bonuses, and more, matter.

NB in particularly MagNb have less armor because if they do not build for damage they do far less than anyone and their crit bonus is reliant on cloak. So, you need a lot of mag regen to enable a 3 second cloak for very long.

But cloak by itself is NEVER enough because 100% of good players know how to kill an NB without speed, so, NBs have to spec more into speed like swift jewelry.

But you can be fast and cloaky or do damage but not both unlike a DK that can spec to almost complete immortality and still kill many things.

Take your DK vs a cloaking magblade and I'll give you money if you lose.

DK is only one of the classes I play, and hardly at that as I absolutely hate the appearance of half of their kit and the best looking abilities, like Wings, are not comparable to the utility of it’s other ones, and outside of running a Chudan you’re stuck looking like a porcupine.

My three go-to classes currently are Necromancer, Templar, and you could probably guess it… Nightblade.

Which is how I referenced the in-class “passive” Major Resolve and Blur, the only in-class ability in the game that provides Major Evasion a free 20% reduction of all AoE damage which is the vast majority of ultimates while also applying a free Dodge ICD reset, I could also bring up Power Extraction that applies Minor Cowardice while providing Minor Courage reducing my opponents damage and healing while buffing my own, and Major Cowardice from Mass Hysteria which by itself takes away a whole 5th piece of a damage set from someone, last I checked, there’s no ability in the game that provides Major Courage, while I can frivolously take that amount of damage and healing from other players in an AoE roll-catching hard stun.

You say Cloak by itself, but Cloak is never by itself, as I’ve mentioned it earlier in the thread, it’s how the ability synergizes with the rest of it’s very tanky ability kit when used properly.

Edit: Sorry, I forgot Minor Maim from Summon Shade aswell, which is another damage debuff that’s applicable to an opponent.

Yeah, anyone can get free major evasion in elusive mist so pair back the horror.

You could make the same argument that omg flame lash does 10-20% more damage than swallow soul with a full burst heal and write a filibuster about how that's ridiculous or broken. Or that noxious gives you a burst aoe with a dot, with free major breach and NB's useless piercing mark only hits one target and NO ONE uses it like a lot of the kit.

and no decent NB is running shade anymore when mist is a cheaper escape that gives speed and projectile protection on demand without the need for a cast. Don't worry, arcanists are doing the same thing. Sorcs, not so much.

I'm happy DK is in a good place, it was my first toon back in '14. I wish people would differentiate Stamblades and magblades tho, because magnbs have suffered and a couple of good utility skills doesn't make up for a useless offensive kit

Brrrofski

I genuinely don't find it that hard to keep a NB out of stealth. And that without a detect pot.

To the point where I'm not even running it on my build. Healing and speed is my defence.

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

This thread has been moved to the Combat & Character Mechanics section, as it is better suited there.

Thank you for your understanding.

Weckless

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

To be fair most armor are great skills so I wouldnt necessarily say it's "taking up a bar slot" like it's a bad skill or something.

Yet having to throw an ugly Spiked Armor on my bar prevents me from slotting Igneous Weapons, a 20% increase to damage for a whole minute that buffs my entire group, and remember, ZOS did a balance pass on the game with a spreadsheet, by their logic, Spiked Armor = Igneous Weapons, and we all know that little 6k shield or less than 10k DoT over 20 seconds isn’t putting the weight on the ability, it’s the Major Resolve.

So yes, it’s a sacrifice that every other class deals with, so it’s disingenuous to say Nightblades are struggling with defense, especially when you start taking the whole picture into account.

Volatile armor is arguably the best armor buff in the game lol. And idk how you can't fit igneous on my dk I fit them both with a flex spot lol and it's not like major brutailty is hard to get otherwise. If you're not running brutality you need to tweak your build. And i never said nightblade was struggling with defense you got the wrong guy.

Weckless

Xandreia_ wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

Just got back from Imperial City. First of all its true what they say in that it is really competitive now lol

Secondly, my NB spent most of its time there getting pulled out of cloak and dying from no burst heal. Buff NB.

No burst heal? Nb has the best burst heal in the game 😂

Coag is the best burst heal in the game

Weckless

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

RedFireDisco wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

To be fair most armor are great skills so I wouldnt necessarily say it's "taking up a bar slot" like it's a bad skill or something.

Yet having to throw an ugly Spiked Armor on my bar prevents me from slotting Igneous Weapons, a 20% increase to damage for a whole minute that buffs my entire group, and remember, ZOS did a balance pass on the game with a spreadsheet, by their logic, Spiked Armor = Igneous Weapons, and we all know that little 6k shield or less than 10k DoT over 20 seconds isn’t putting the weight on the ability, it’s the Major Resolve.

So yes, it’s a sacrifice that every other class deals with, so it’s disingenuous to say Nightblades are struggling with defense, especially when you start taking the whole picture into account.

As if the resolve bonus is the be all end all of defense. Shields, armor passives, health bonuses, damage mitigation bonuses, and more, matter.

NB in particularly MagNb have less armor because if they do not build for damage they do far less than anyone and their crit bonus is reliant on cloak. So, you need a lot of mag regen to enable a 3 second cloak for very long.

But cloak by itself is NEVER enough because 100% of good players know how to kill an NB without speed, so, NBs have to spec more into speed like swift jewelry.

But you can be fast and cloaky or do damage but not both unlike a DK that can spec to almost complete immortality and still kill many things.

Take your DK vs a cloaking magblade and I'll give you money if you lose.

DK is only one of the classes I play, and hardly at that as I absolutely hate the appearance of half of their kit and the best looking abilities, like Wings, are not comparable to the utility of it’s other ones, and outside of running a Chudan you’re stuck looking like a porcupine.

My three go-to classes currently are Necromancer, Templar, and you could probably guess it… Nightblade.

Which is how I referenced the in-class “passive” Major Resolve and Blur, the only in-class ability in the game that provides Major Evasion a free 20% reduction of all AoE damage which is the vast majority of ultimates while also applying a free Dodge ICD reset, I could also bring up Power Extraction that applies Minor Cowardice while providing Minor Courage reducing my opponents damage and healing while buffing my own, and Major Cowardice from Mass Hysteria which by itself takes away a whole 5th piece of a damage set from someone, last I checked, there’s no ability in the game that provides Major Courage, while I can frivolously take that amount of damage and healing from other players in an AoE roll-catching hard stun.

You say Cloak by itself, but Cloak is never by itself, as I’ve mentioned it earlier in the thread, it’s how the ability synergizes with the rest of it’s very tanky ability kit when used properly.

Edit: Sorry, I forgot Minor Maim from Summon Shade aswell, which is another damage debuff that’s applicable to an opponent.

Just because you dont use good skills because you think theyre ugly doesnt mean NB has it better it kinda weakens your whole argument. DK outclasses nightblade and warden is around the same level. Other classes need to be buffed is what the focus should be

Weckless

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Xandreia_ wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

Just got back from Imperial City. First of all its true what they say in that it is really competitive now lol

Secondly, my NB spent most of its time there getting pulled out of cloak and dying from no burst heal. Buff NB.

No burst heal? Nb has the best burst heal in the game 😂

To be fair, the heal is strong, but...
1. One healing ability is a morph of Cloak that does not provide invisibility - so you have to use other healing if you want to have iconic class feature.
2. The other healing ability requires light/heavy attacking stack of 5, that all have to hit - if those are dodged it won't count. lt also requires you to be in combat and on melee range. So you actively need to be fighting someone. Not only that, but melee range is something like up to 7 meters. In order to receive a heal you need to hit a target with bow proc. And bow proc can be dodged, as it is relatively slow moving projectile. If it is dodged then target receives no damage and you receive no healing, but you lose all of the LA/HA stacks & resources it costed to cast.

...So, since it has so many hoops you need to jump through and kiss-curse effects build in as it is basically a risk vs reward yolo skill, I can totally understand why it is strong. It is not like Templar or Warden or DK or Sorc that hit a button and they can reliably heal themselves. If you look at all of the NB healing abilities, for the most part they all have this "thing" that you need to deal damage in order to be healed, with only exception being Dark Cloak, but as mentioned earlier - you no longer can use invisibility if you chose that morph and it is clearly made with PvE in mind as it has this "if you don't move, the heal is stronger" stuff.

I think you may have missed the healthy offering change bro. We have a pretty bomb burst heal now. It's still not the best though. Coag is the best.

Tyrant_Tim

Weckless wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

RedFireDisco wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

To be fair most armor are great skills so I wouldnt necessarily say it's "taking up a bar slot" like it's a bad skill or something.

Yet having to throw an ugly Spiked Armor on my bar prevents me from slotting Igneous Weapons, a 20% increase to damage for a whole minute that buffs my entire group, and remember, ZOS did a balance pass on the game with a spreadsheet, by their logic, Spiked Armor = Igneous Weapons, and we all know that little 6k shield or less than 10k DoT over 20 seconds isn’t putting the weight on the ability, it’s the Major Resolve.

So yes, it’s a sacrifice that every other class deals with, so it’s disingenuous to say Nightblades are struggling with defense, especially when you start taking the whole picture into account.

As if the resolve bonus is the be all end all of defense. Shields, armor passives, health bonuses, damage mitigation bonuses, and more, matter.

NB in particularly MagNb have less armor because if they do not build for damage they do far less than anyone and their crit bonus is reliant on cloak. So, you need a lot of mag regen to enable a 3 second cloak for very long.

But cloak by itself is NEVER enough because 100% of good players know how to kill an NB without speed, so, NBs have to spec more into speed like swift jewelry.

But you can be fast and cloaky or do damage but not both unlike a DK that can spec to almost complete immortality and still kill many things.

Take your DK vs a cloaking magblade and I'll give you money if you lose.

DK is only one of the classes I play, and hardly at that as I absolutely hate the appearance of half of their kit and the best looking abilities, like Wings, are not comparable to the utility of it’s other ones, and outside of running a Chudan you’re stuck looking like a porcupine.

My three go-to classes currently are Necromancer, Templar, and you could probably guess it… Nightblade.

Which is how I referenced the in-class “passive” Major Resolve and Blur, the only in-class ability in the game that provides Major Evasion a free 20% reduction of all AoE damage which is the vast majority of ultimates while also applying a free Dodge ICD reset, I could also bring up Power Extraction that applies Minor Cowardice while providing Minor Courage reducing my opponents damage and healing while buffing my own, and Major Cowardice from Mass Hysteria which by itself takes away a whole 5th piece of a damage set from someone, last I checked, there’s no ability in the game that provides Major Courage, while I can frivolously take that amount of damage and healing from other players in an AoE roll-catching hard stun.

You say Cloak by itself, but Cloak is never by itself, as I’ve mentioned it earlier in the thread, it’s how the ability synergizes with the rest of it’s very tanky ability kit when used properly.

Edit: Sorry, I forgot Minor Maim from Summon Shade aswell, which is another damage debuff that’s applicable to an opponent.

Just because you dont use good skills because you think theyre ugly doesnt mean NB has it better it kinda weakens your whole argument. DK outclasses nightblade and warden is around the same level. Other classes need to be buffed is what the focus should be

Nobody is refusing to use good skills because they are ugly… Spiked Armor is a necessity. No class can do a Major Resolve pass and get away with it. Neither can they do a Major Sorcery or Brutality pass. You missed the point entirely though. Nightblade has a passive that is as strong as an active skill, show me that anywhere else.

DK is overpowered, yeah. Nightblade is right beside them, and any competent PvP player will tell you the same thing, right after getting hit by a 20k spec bow from stealth while having full 33k+ resistance.

Tyrant_Tim

RedFireDisco wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

RedFireDisco wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

To be fair most armor are great skills so I wouldnt necessarily say it's "taking up a bar slot" like it's a bad skill or something.

Yet having to throw an ugly Spiked Armor on my bar prevents me from slotting Igneous Weapons, a 20% increase to damage for a whole minute that buffs my entire group, and remember, ZOS did a balance pass on the game with a spreadsheet, by their logic, Spiked Armor = Igneous Weapons, and we all know that little 6k shield or less than 10k DoT over 20 seconds isn’t putting the weight on the ability, it’s the Major Resolve.

So yes, it’s a sacrifice that every other class deals with, so it’s disingenuous to say Nightblades are struggling with defense, especially when you start taking the whole picture into account.

As if the resolve bonus is the be all end all of defense. Shields, armor passives, health bonuses, damage mitigation bonuses, and more, matter.

NB in particularly MagNb have less armor because if they do not build for damage they do far less than anyone and their crit bonus is reliant on cloak. So, you need a lot of mag regen to enable a 3 second cloak for very long.

But cloak by itself is NEVER enough because 100% of good players know how to kill an NB without speed, so, NBs have to spec more into speed like swift jewelry.

But you can be fast and cloaky or do damage but not both unlike a DK that can spec to almost complete immortality and still kill many things.

Take your DK vs a cloaking magblade and I'll give you money if you lose.

DK is only one of the classes I play, and hardly at that as I absolutely hate the appearance of half of their kit and the best looking abilities, like Wings, are not comparable to the utility of it’s other ones, and outside of running a Chudan you’re stuck looking like a porcupine.

My three go-to classes currently are Necromancer, Templar, and you could probably guess it… Nightblade.

Which is how I referenced the in-class “passive” Major Resolve and Blur, the only in-class ability in the game that provides Major Evasion a free 20% reduction of all AoE damage which is the vast majority of ultimates while also applying a free Dodge ICD reset, I could also bring up Power Extraction that applies Minor Cowardice while providing Minor Courage reducing my opponents damage and healing while buffing my own, and Major Cowardice from Mass Hysteria which by itself takes away a whole 5th piece of a damage set from someone, last I checked, there’s no ability in the game that provides Major Courage, while I can frivolously take that amount of damage and healing from other players in an AoE roll-catching hard stun.

You say Cloak by itself, but Cloak is never by itself, as I’ve mentioned it earlier in the thread, it’s how the ability synergizes with the rest of it’s very tanky ability kit when used properly.

Edit: Sorry, I forgot Minor Maim from Summon Shade aswell, which is another damage debuff that’s applicable to an opponent.

Yeah, anyone can get free major evasion in elusive mist so pair back the horror.

You could make the same argument that omg flame lash does 10-20% more damage than swallow soul with a full burst heal and write a filibuster about how that's ridiculous or broken. Or that noxious gives you a burst aoe with a dot, with free major breach and NB's useless piercing mark only hits one target and NO ONE uses it like a lot of the kit.

and no decent NB is running shade anymore when mist is a cheaper escape that gives speed and projectile protection on demand without the need for a cast. Don't worry, arcanists are doing the same thing. Sorcs, not so much.

I'm happy DK is in a good place, it was my first toon back in '14. I wish people would differentiate Stamblades and magblades tho, because magnbs have suffered and a couple of good utility skills doesn't make up for a useless offensive kit

“Pair back the horror?”

You’ve got it 100% backwards, you’re not going to be hitting 20k+ Spec Bows on Stamblade in PvP, that’s a Magblade thing now which is not “useless” offensively, it’s excessive. If your offense is struggling, try adding more crit damage, because it sounds like you’ve got a build problem.

That Major Evasion from Mist lasts about 2 seconds, whereas Blur lasts 20… it’s not even a comparison, and Shade is 1,000x better than Mist, you can see where someone is going with Mist, where Shade has way more range, does some damage and if you cast it outside of visibility and then port back to it you’re just gone. Nothing anyone can do to stop that, where a gap closer shuts down Mist completely.

Weckless

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

RedFireDisco wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

To be fair most armor are great skills so I wouldnt necessarily say it's "taking up a bar slot" like it's a bad skill or something.

Yet having to throw an ugly Spiked Armor on my bar prevents me from slotting Igneous Weapons, a 20% increase to damage for a whole minute that buffs my entire group, and remember, ZOS did a balance pass on the game with a spreadsheet, by their logic, Spiked Armor = Igneous Weapons, and we all know that little 6k shield or less than 10k DoT over 20 seconds isn’t putting the weight on the ability, it’s the Major Resolve.

So yes, it’s a sacrifice that every other class deals with, so it’s disingenuous to say Nightblades are struggling with defense, especially when you start taking the whole picture into account.

As if the resolve bonus is the be all end all of defense. Shields, armor passives, health bonuses, damage mitigation bonuses, and more, matter.

NB in particularly MagNb have less armor because if they do not build for damage they do far less than anyone and their crit bonus is reliant on cloak. So, you need a lot of mag regen to enable a 3 second cloak for very long.

But cloak by itself is NEVER enough because 100% of good players know how to kill an NB without speed, so, NBs have to spec more into speed like swift jewelry.

But you can be fast and cloaky or do damage but not both unlike a DK that can spec to almost complete immortality and still kill many things.

Take your DK vs a cloaking magblade and I'll give you money if you lose.

DK is only one of the classes I play, and hardly at that as I absolutely hate the appearance of half of their kit and the best looking abilities, like Wings, are not comparable to the utility of it’s other ones, and outside of running a Chudan you’re stuck looking like a porcupine.

My three go-to classes currently are Necromancer, Templar, and you could probably guess it… Nightblade.

Which is how I referenced the in-class “passive” Major Resolve and Blur, the only in-class ability in the game that provides Major Evasion a free 20% reduction of all AoE damage which is the vast majority of ultimates while also applying a free Dodge ICD reset, I could also bring up Power Extraction that applies Minor Cowardice while providing Minor Courage reducing my opponents damage and healing while buffing my own, and Major Cowardice from Mass Hysteria which by itself takes away a whole 5th piece of a damage set from someone, last I checked, there’s no ability in the game that provides Major Courage, while I can frivolously take that amount of damage and healing from other players in an AoE roll-catching hard stun.

You say Cloak by itself, but Cloak is never by itself, as I’ve mentioned it earlier in the thread, it’s how the ability synergizes with the rest of it’s very tanky ability kit when used properly.

Edit: Sorry, I forgot Minor Maim from Summon Shade aswell, which is another damage debuff that’s applicable to an opponent.

Just because you dont use good skills because you think theyre ugly doesnt mean NB has it better it kinda weakens your whole argument. DK outclasses nightblade and warden is around the same level. Other classes need to be buffed is what the focus should be

Nobody is refusing to use good skills because they are ugly… Spiked Armor is a necessity. No class can do a Major Resolve pass and get away with it. Neither can they do a Major Sorcery or Brutality pass. You missed the point entirely though. Nightblade has a passive that is as strong as an active skill, show me that anywhere else.

DK is overpowered, yeah. Nightblade is right beside them, and any competent PvP player will tell you the same thing, right after getting hit by a 20k spec bow from stealth while having full 33k+ resistance.

Dk has minor brutality. On my DK that gives me 500+ extra weapon damage. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Weckless

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

RedFireDisco wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

RedFireDisco wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

To be fair most armor are great skills so I wouldnt necessarily say it's "taking up a bar slot" like it's a bad skill or something.

Yet having to throw an ugly Spiked Armor on my bar prevents me from slotting Igneous Weapons, a 20% increase to damage for a whole minute that buffs my entire group, and remember, ZOS did a balance pass on the game with a spreadsheet, by their logic, Spiked Armor = Igneous Weapons, and we all know that little 6k shield or less than 10k DoT over 20 seconds isn’t putting the weight on the ability, it’s the Major Resolve.

So yes, it’s a sacrifice that every other class deals with, so it’s disingenuous to say Nightblades are struggling with defense, especially when you start taking the whole picture into account.

As if the resolve bonus is the be all end all of defense. Shields, armor passives, health bonuses, damage mitigation bonuses, and more, matter.

NB in particularly MagNb have less armor because if they do not build for damage they do far less than anyone and their crit bonus is reliant on cloak. So, you need a lot of mag regen to enable a 3 second cloak for very long.

But cloak by itself is NEVER enough because 100% of good players know how to kill an NB without speed, so, NBs have to spec more into speed like swift jewelry.

But you can be fast and cloaky or do damage but not both unlike a DK that can spec to almost complete immortality and still kill many things.

Take your DK vs a cloaking magblade and I'll give you money if you lose.

DK is only one of the classes I play, and hardly at that as I absolutely hate the appearance of half of their kit and the best looking abilities, like Wings, are not comparable to the utility of it’s other ones, and outside of running a Chudan you’re stuck looking like a porcupine.

My three go-to classes currently are Necromancer, Templar, and you could probably guess it… Nightblade.

Which is how I referenced the in-class “passive” Major Resolve and Blur, the only in-class ability in the game that provides Major Evasion a free 20% reduction of all AoE damage which is the vast majority of ultimates while also applying a free Dodge ICD reset, I could also bring up Power Extraction that applies Minor Cowardice while providing Minor Courage reducing my opponents damage and healing while buffing my own, and Major Cowardice from Mass Hysteria which by itself takes away a whole 5th piece of a damage set from someone, last I checked, there’s no ability in the game that provides Major Courage, while I can frivolously take that amount of damage and healing from other players in an AoE roll-catching hard stun.

You say Cloak by itself, but Cloak is never by itself, as I’ve mentioned it earlier in the thread, it’s how the ability synergizes with the rest of it’s very tanky ability kit when used properly.

Edit: Sorry, I forgot Minor Maim from Summon Shade aswell, which is another damage debuff that’s applicable to an opponent.

Yeah, anyone can get free major evasion in elusive mist so pair back the horror.

You could make the same argument that omg flame lash does 10-20% more damage than swallow soul with a full burst heal and write a filibuster about how that's ridiculous or broken. Or that noxious gives you a burst aoe with a dot, with free major breach and NB's useless piercing mark only hits one target and NO ONE uses it like a lot of the kit.

and no decent NB is running shade anymore when mist is a cheaper escape that gives speed and projectile protection on demand without the need for a cast. Don't worry, arcanists are doing the same thing. Sorcs, not so much.

I'm happy DK is in a good place, it was my first toon back in '14. I wish people would differentiate Stamblades and magblades tho, because magnbs have suffered and a couple of good utility skills doesn't make up for a useless offensive kit

“Pair back the horror?”

You’ve got it 100% backwards, you’re not going to be hitting 20k+ Spec Bows on Stamblade in PvP, that’s a Magblade thing now which is not “useless” offensively, it’s excessive. If your offense is struggling, try adding more crit damage, because it sounds like you’ve got a build problem.

That Major Evasion from Mist lasts about 2 seconds, whereas Blur lasts 20… it’s not even a comparison, and Shade is 1,000x better than Mist, you can see where someone is going with Mist, where Shade has way more range, does some damage and if you cast it outside of visibility and then port back to it you’re just gone. Nothing anyone can do to stop that, where a gap closer shuts down Mist completely.

It sounds like you might have one too. I won't say I've never hit 20k+ spec bow because I have. But I've personally never been hit with a 20k+ spec bow and I play about 10k under the armor cap with no major protection and all offensive blue cp except for the single target healing one. The only people I've hit those high bows on were glass cannons and people who seemed new to pvp and let their buffs fall off etc

Weckless

Dk also for some reason can stack their whip out of combat and it doesn't lose the stacks until it lands no matter how many times they miss it. I want my bow proc to refund me my stacks when someone dodges it. In the name of fairness and consistent standards yall surely can't disagree with that right? It's what most of everyones argument is based around so don't start being hypocrites. Sorcs should also get every dagger back that misses when they fire bound armaments. "Fair"

Weckless

Frag too

SandandStars

If the aim of the combat dev team was to make classes balanced, you would be 100% correct Weckless.

However, it seems likely that DK’s significant advantages over other classes are intentional.

Weckless

For real i want to be able to stack my bow and bound armaments by light attacking the air like people used to proc kena

Sikon

Simple answer: If you nerf cloak on NBs you also need to give them more Resistances and Sustainability like other classes have. NBs are really squishy and cloak is there "Staying on Block stance" like DKs, Wardes do or "Flashheal spam" like Templars do...

every class has its unique way to survive... you can like NB or hate it, but this class is designed on being a "stealth" "burst" class. It is not designed for long fights and damage over time. So getting in fights for a short burst and getting out again is part of the concept.

Turtle_Bot

Simple response:

If NB's want to remain an evasive, stealthy class that get in, burst and get out, gut healthy offering. NB did not need one of the best burst heals (behind only coag and maybe polar) to go alongside their extremely efficient kiting and unique mitigation abilities (major evasion for 20+s, free dodge roll, BOTH major AND minor expedition for free on already good/overloaded skills, snare removal/immunity, major resolve as a passive).

Sorc has been prevented from having any reliable heal that's not tied to a cast time or HoT that's not tied to them dealing damage (all of which can be easily dodge rolled or cleansed) for forever now because of streak and on top of the lack of healing, streak (sorcs evasive tool) has a ramping cost, so lets hold NB to the same standard as the other "squishy DD burst class", give offering a 1.5s cast time that when interrupted stuns them and hard locks the skill for 3 seconds preventing its use during that period and on top of that give cloak a ramping cost, that would bring NB into line with the other "squishy dd burst class" in the game.

Or you know, maybe NBs should stay off sorc threads that merely ask for a fraction of the buffs/fixes NB got over the past year to make sorcs a more cohesive and functional class in modern ESO. Many of the buffs sorcs ask for even include/propose actual nerfs/balance to account for the better functionality, something NB never had to think about when they got given all of their straight up buffs (not even side grades with better functionality, they were just straight up buffs NB got).

Sikon

Ah, see what it's all about, Sorc player feels bad and wanna have Buffs for his class or nerf the other classes to hell. Just another senseless PvP thread then.

Btw Sorc is based on a shielding, mobility concept and doing high damage without doing anything, by "sticking bombs, dots" to the target and run with a Hurricane in the groups... like I said every class has is high and down sides. Sorcs are pretty good atm in PvP tho.. just check good builds

Turtle_Bot

Sikon wrote: »

Ah, see what it's all about, Sorc player feels bad and wanna have Buffs for his class or nerf the other classes to hell. Just another senseless PvP thread then.

Btw Sorc is based on a shielding, mobility concept and doing high damage without doing anything, by "sticking bombs, dots" to the target and run with a Hurricane in the groups... like I said every class has is high and down sides. Sorcs are pretty good atm in PvP tho.. just check good builds

stamsorcs are decent in pvp, magsorcs are not, they are playable (more than they were a couple patches ago) but they're nowhere near being good.

maybe nerfs for nb wouldn't be asked for if NBs would stop going onto sorc threads screaming and trying to prevent sorcs from getting any buffs at all. Maybe if NBs had minded their own business instead of getting butthurt over other classes asking for buffs there wouldn't be any push back against them.

As for the constant crying about NBs being bad from many on this thread, maybe NB mains should take your advice and look up good NB builds instead of trying to keep other weaker classes down so they can feel good about themselves.

Sikon

ESO overall has by far never had a class balance. This "Hybridization" of ZOS made PvP even more unbalanced.

Play what you like does totally not fit for the game. So complaining about other classes makes no sense. You just need to play you class with the "meta". NBs get pushed to play Magicka, like Sorcs get pushed to play Stamina.

If you want a perfect solution just split the game in "Fighters" ,"Tanks" and "Healer" roles. Remove every class individuality, give everyone the same spells (maybe change colors abit) and you have balance in the game. What a boring concept it would be...

I tell you even then players would complain about other players if they get "owned" by someone because then its probably bug abusing, exploiting, macroing or cheating at all. If you get beat up you everytime find a way to complain. GG

Weckless

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Simple response:

If NB's want to remain an evasive, stealthy class that get in, burst and get out, gut healthy offering. NB did not need one of the best burst heals (behind only coag and maybe polar) to go alongside their extremely efficient kiting and unique mitigation abilities (major evasion for 20+s, free dodge roll, BOTH major AND minor expedition for free on already good/overloaded skills, snare removal/immunity, major resolve as a passive).

Sorc has been prevented from having any reliable heal that's not tied to a cast time or HoT that's not tied to them dealing damage (all of which can be easily dodge rolled or cleansed) for forever now because of streak and on top of the lack of healing, streak (sorcs evasive tool) has a ramping cost, so lets hold NB to the same standard as the other "squishy DD burst class", give offering a 1.5s cast time that when interrupted stuns them and hard locks the skill for 3 seconds preventing its use during that period and on top of that give cloak a ramping cost, that would bring NB into line with the other "squishy dd burst class" in the game.

Or you know, maybe NBs should stay off sorc threads that merely ask for a fraction of the buffs/fixes NB got over the past year to make sorcs a more cohesive and functional class in modern ESO. Many of the buffs sorcs ask for even include/propose actual nerfs/balance to account for the better functionality, something NB never had to think about when they got given all of their straight up buffs (not even side grades with better functionality, they were just straight up buffs NB got).

Bro in all for sorc buffs and advocate for them more than I do for my NB. Calling for nerfs because youre lacking just comes off as bitter. I give no *** if cloak gets a ramping cost but if youre going to touch the heal then we need to talk about compensation because regardless of what everyone says cloak is not reliable. Im putting together a video proving it just collecting more proof but from about 30 minutes of pvp i got 4 or 5 different examples of it failing. It actually works less than it doesnt.