It's time to uphold NB Cloak to the same standards!

ProudMary

If cloak wasn't grossly OP you wouldn't see all the PvP NB players flocking to these threads making every justification they can think of to keep cloak unchanged. The mere mention of something as rational as a ramping up cost for repeated use of the skill puts them on the defensive and causes them to, apparently, panic.

A ramping up cost for repeated back to back uses of cloak makes total, rational sense. There are many NB's in Cyrodiil that are invisible more than 80% of the time, even during fights. Their up time with cloak is far in excess of the up time for detect pots and other detect options. This is an imbalance that should have been addressed years ago. Hopefully the increased range for detect pots will help, but we'll see.

ProudMary

Saint-Ange wrote: »

[snip]

It's impossible to balance both PvP and PvE, so let's the great split happen.
We PvE players have had enough to always getting the short end of the stick [snip]

[edited for bashing and inappropriate content]

The vast majority of the game is catered to the casual PvE player. What percentage of the game is PvE based vs. PvP based?

Tyrant_Tim

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

One can easily hide in light. There are reasons armies used to use dawn and dusk to fight. Fighter pilots in WW2 would use to try to attack so to have the sun at there backs to avoid detection. The light obscures vision just as much as darkness if there is too much of it. I think that instead of nerfing cloak that changes should be made to other classes to give them such a maneuver. As far as I am aware only templars don't have such a mechanism. So how about changing a skill so that they have a flashbang instead?

A long time ago, Templar used to have an ability called Blinding Flashes, and it was amazing, it caused your player to dodge attacks similar to how Shuffle used to work, later they decided to change it to Radiant Oppression.

ArchMikem wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Cloak is the only ability in the game that requires you to use different potions or slot different abilities to counter, a ramping cost is more than fair.

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

You can't counter Streak. Two casts and they're well out of range of anything you can do to them.

Cloak. AoE's, Ability Detects, Detect Pots. Even the NB's own Dots they've placed brings them out whenever it ticks. Yes a gankblade is annoying bur this is a decayed Horse. Slot Magelight or Detect Pots and chase them down.

You can counter Streak with any gap closer in the game, which unlike Magelight or Camo Hunter have other uses than only appearing on your bar to counter one of the seven classes.

The passives are negligible.

I'd call gap closers to be a "different ability" for some, they're not required for all builds and sometimes they just don't weigh enough in value on people's crowded bars. Mage/Inner Light also is a very prominent passive ability for Magicka characters. Mine won't go into the world without it.

I'll add, that making Cloak more costly to use is more or less forcing Nightblades into different builds to compensate. Armor isn't our defense, Invisibility is. Everyone should admit these complaints against Nightblade Cloak are first and foremost born from frustration having to fight them. (I was one of you, once. Still am, a little bit) This isn't about what's fair, it's about righting a misplaced sense of feeling like you're at a disadvantage. There have been hard counters to Invisibility, I see MANY in Campaign using them in their builds to great success, whether it be Magelight, Camo Hunter, Detect Pots, Revealing Flare, or really just Heavy Armor/Crit Resist/Overheals. More and more are kitted out to negate NightBlades, and then we get bagged relentlessly. There's already a permanent stigma/prejudice against those playing Nightblades the way ZOS wanted us to and then people want them neutered because they're still annoying to deal with.

These complaints and suggested changes, in the name of "what's fair" is just pushing everyone to become a Two Handed Heavy armor Brawler build.

Currently, Shadowy Disguise is the best outnumbered tool in the game, you can effectively reset fights and pick your targets.

In a duel, using Shadowy Disguise you can effective shut someone off from Heavy Attack resource return while cycling roll-dodge.

When in the hands of a knowledgeable player, it is hands down one of the best abilities in the game.

It’s not just how Cloak performs individually, it’s how it interacts with the rest of Nightblades kit. This wouldn’t be as big of problem if the class didn’t also have access to the 2nd best single target burst heal in the game or a means to roll dodge for free through Blur in effect, resetting the roll dodge ICD every 10 hits you take by weaving Cloak into your dodge’s place.

For context, I have over 2,000cp and over 30 in-game days played in PvP on just my Nightblade.

Not everyone here with an adverse opinion is coming from a place of ignorance.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Alternate solution: Make Shadow Cloak and Shadowy Disguise act more like Dsrk Cloak, both will add a heal that gets stronger if you do not move, the diference is where Dark Dloak grants minor protection, Shadowy Disguise can reduce detection radius and the time it takes to enter stealth.

Vulkunne

Mayrael wrote: »

OP's lack of knowledge about how cloak works tells everything what needs to be said. It's typical case "I have no idea how it works but it's to strong".

Correct. I don't like it so make sure that no one else can use it either. That's not a technical issue its called something else. Something that rythms with "Sprite".

Like some people want to make changes out of... just cannot think of the word but its appropriate.

Vulkunne

JerBearESO wrote: »

Yeah it needs ramping cost, but could also use some quality of life. Like why are we still needing to recast it all the time. Make it a toggle already. Toggle with ramping cost.

Also, why does EVERYTHING take NB out of stealth now. Its own DoT skill takes it out of stealth.... Need indirect damage to never pull it from stealth once it has ramping cost.

So the invisibility cloak has actually gone thru a series of nerfs over time. For example, upon cast it used to cleanse DOTs and then the last passive in the Shadow Tree used to dynamically extend its duration a little.

Folks, we need to come to an understanding about something here. Sorc Teleport and now Vamp Teleport changes your location, allowing you great mobility and can really affect the outcome of a situation. Invisibility cloak breaks LOS yet you are still there... That's why its so easy for cloak to be broken, once someone knows where you are that's it.

Teleport is a completely different animal which provides I would argue more options than invisibility. Furthermore, for Stamblades cloak is so expensive that a ramping cost would make it virtually unusable. Ramping cost should follow Ramping benefits and the NB Invisibility Cloak does not provide this.

Vulkunne

Zavijah_Arventi wrote: »

As a former NB main that I only persevered with as had lal motifs, furniture etc. I can both agree with you that it's a pain in PVP, but also totally useless in PVE, and yet, is one of the classes defining hallmarks.

I am on board with gutting it provided the class is completely shifted away from stealth and given new mechanics to make up for its departure.

Alternatively, I'd love to see it as a toggle where the stealth is in place until broken, and then either incurs a 10 second cool down or something, or an increase in cost as you suggested.

Oh well that's nice. So what do we do then about all the people who enjoy playing stealth characters and would almost certainly disagree with you? We love our NBs as they are and don't want them gutted.

Alternatively, you can just go play another class. A toggle too won't work because we already have that, its called "going into Stealth". A cloak toggle is mathematically the exact same difference whereas the cloak allows a little more freedom when its not convenient to go into stealth mode.

And that's really what a NB is about, at least to me. Freedom. I have the freedom to leave a fight, I have the freedom to not fight, I have the freedom to just go home and log off if I choose to. I have the freedom uhh to not be on a DK with 10k Tel Vars and forced to fight every single person in Imperial City to get to the exit, or at least to exit where I'm frequently in combat.

The NB is just not well understood and quite frankly it doesn't really matter if you've played it before because sometimes a class or something is not just defined by its technical attributes but the affect it has on the person playing it as well as how it interacts with those around it.

You cannot simply use a faulty medical procedure to 'fix' something that you don't like based on your own personal opinion. Any patching or any fixes need to be based on factual evidence and keeping with the spirit of the thing. I swear some of these replies to this thread alone are similar to some of the darkest impulses in human history towards things that we simply have a negative opinion of and it needs to stop or we'll not have anything left to enjoy in this game. Not to mention outside of it but I digress.

Heartrage

ProudMary wrote: »

If cloak wasn't grossly OP you wouldn't see all the PvP NB players flocking to these threads making every justification they can think of to keep cloak unchanged. The mere mention of something as rational as a ramping up cost for repeated use of the skill puts them on the defensive and causes them to, apparently, panic.

A ramping up cost for repeated back to back uses of cloak makes total, rational sense. There are many NB's in Cyrodiil that are invisible more than 80% of the time, even during fights. Their up time with cloak is far in excess of the up time for detect pots and other detect options. This is an imbalance that should have been addressed years ago. Hopefully the increased range for detect pots will help, but we'll see.

People arguing that there isn’t a problem doesn’t prove that the problem exist. Calling your argument rational doesn’t make it a good argument.

There are many tools to disable cloak and some have an up time that can be as long as cloak. The differences between cloak and other abilities that have ramped up costs are sufficient that the comparison isn’t a good argument.

Saint-Ange

ProudMary wrote: »

The vast majority of the game is catered to the casual PvE player. What percentage of the game is PvE based vs. PvP based?

We're talking class balance not texture of the trees or kill ten rats.
The main focus of any type of player is gameplay first. A nice vivid world will never do for bad gameplay.

Everytime a skill is nerfed it's toward PvP class balance with zero consideration for PvE and it happens in all the games whom combat dev teams run after the Graal of balancing both PvE and PvP. I remember a meeting between game devs from different companies being organized by Massively-Joystick, before it became MassivelyOP. 100% of devs and journalists agreed it was impossible. All the tension come from this situation, it's a Gording knot that can only be solved by separating stuff for PvP and PvE.

Amottica

Redguards_Revenge wrote: »

Meurto wrote: »

Just like politics, everyone has an opinion, but lacks the understanding to arrive at an informed conclusion. There is a lot confirmation bias and an overwhelming absence of fundamental understanding of how cloak functions in addition to cloak counters. [snip]

Can you, give me this understanding? Can you, help resolve the problem?

Regardless of how anything works it comes down to this.

Problem: Cloak is too OP.
Solution: Ramp up the cost.

I am willing to listen to any other solutions to the problem other than complaints about my solution.

I could have experimented and gotten data from unbiased sources and still, people wouldn't agree.

Day one I said proc sets were OP. Many disagreed.
Day one I said certain sets were OP. Many disagreed.
Day one I said Mythics were OP. Many disagreed.
Day one I said "OakenSoul OP." many disagreed. (Oakensoul was not a mythic it was the utter destruction of the fabric of the game day one.)

NB and DK is not right of course...many disagree. Nobody wants to fix an exploit. Nobody wants to fix an advantage. Nobody wants to own up to having an advantage, because they want to feel superior.

Just like I said with oaken soul when it came out day one. If one can admit that they have a broken advantage over others, I will allow it. It's when one sits there and acts like they don't that rubs me wrong.

NB DK have a clear advantage over others. Every time I use the same build on them, I get multi kills. ZoS can fix this easily by strengthening other classes. Yet they don't.

Arcanist is a JOKE in pvp. The only reason why people are dying in PVP to arcanist is because they don't know all of their skills and how they work yet.

[edited to remove quote]

We have already provided information on the subject. We have already noted the solution is and has been in the game. It is the numerous counters to cloak that have been proven time and time again to work very well.

So the suggestion is to start using the counters and find what works best for you.

SaffronCitrusflower

Amottica wrote: »

Redguards_Revenge wrote: »

Meurto wrote: »

Just like politics, everyone has an opinion, but lacks the understanding to arrive at an informed conclusion. There is a lot confirmation bias and an overwhelming absence of fundamental understanding of how cloak functions in addition to cloak counters. [snip]

Can you, give me this understanding? Can you, help resolve the problem?

Regardless of how anything works it comes down to this.

Problem: Cloak is too OP.
Solution: Ramp up the cost.

I am willing to listen to any other solutions to the problem other than complaints about my solution.

I could have experimented and gotten data from unbiased sources and still, people wouldn't agree.

Day one I said proc sets were OP. Many disagreed.
Day one I said certain sets were OP. Many disagreed.
Day one I said Mythics were OP. Many disagreed.
Day one I said "OakenSoul OP." many disagreed. (Oakensoul was not a mythic it was the utter destruction of the fabric of the game day one.)

NB and DK is not right of course...many disagree. Nobody wants to fix an exploit. Nobody wants to fix an advantage. Nobody wants to own up to having an advantage, because they want to feel superior.

Just like I said with oaken soul when it came out day one. If one can admit that they have a broken advantage over others, I will allow it. It's when one sits there and acts like they don't that rubs me wrong.

NB DK have a clear advantage over others. Every time I use the same build on them, I get multi kills. ZoS can fix this easily by strengthening other classes. Yet they don't.

Arcanist is a JOKE in pvp. The only reason why people are dying in PVP to arcanist is because they don't know all of their skills and how they work yet.

[edited to remove quote]

We have already provided information on the subject. We have already noted the solution is and has been in the game. It is the numerous counters to cloak that have been proven time and time again to work very well.

So the suggestion is to start using the counters and find what works best for you.

This post reads like the author doesn't PvP in cyrodiil much in ESO if at all.

SandandStars

Amottica wrote: »

Nightblade cloak is already held to much higher standards. We have many skills that pull NBs out of cloak with several of them preventing the use of cloak for a short duration. These skills have been proven to work well.

Hi @Amottica , based on your insightful and helpful comments I see, I think you know the game very well; however, the 2 skills ppl use the most to pull NBs out of Cloak, Flare & Inner Light, do not prevent NBs from immediately recloaking. I’ve carefully observed/documented this multiple times.

There is either a trick some NBs know, or a straight up bug. I am on Xbox NA, and at least 80% of the time I use these skills (typically Lingering Flare), the NB is revealed then immediately recloaks.

I’ve seen this in Bug Reports but there has been no developer/ZOS response.

It makes cloak a great deal more powerful & effective in PvP.

ArchMikem

ProudMary wrote: »

If cloak wasn't grossly OP you wouldn't see all the PvP NB players flocking to these threads making every justification they can think of to keep cloak unchanged. The mere mention of something as rational as a ramping up cost for repeated use of the skill puts them on the defensive and causes them to, apparently, panic.

A ramping up cost for repeated back to back uses of cloak makes total, rational sense. There are many NB's in Cyrodiil that are invisible more than 80% of the time, even during fights. Their up time with cloak is far in excess of the up time for detect pots and other detect options. This is an imbalance that should have been addressed years ago. Hopefully the increased range for detect pots will help, but we'll see.

And the Stamblades that can only cast cloak maybe five times before they're dry? Want to cut that to two or three at most with cost scaling? Buffs like Acceleration cost magic too.

I'm now starting to realize these complaints are aimed at the Magblades, or the new Hybrids running around. Basically people with decent magicka pools.

Vulkunne

Amottica wrote: »

Redguards_Revenge wrote: »

Meurto wrote: »

Just like politics, everyone has an opinion, but lacks the understanding to arrive at an informed conclusion. There is a lot confirmation bias and an overwhelming absence of fundamental understanding of how cloak functions in addition to cloak counters. [snip]

Can you, give me this understanding? Can you, help resolve the problem?

Regardless of how anything works it comes down to this.

Problem: Cloak is too OP.
Solution: Ramp up the cost.

I am willing to listen to any other solutions to the problem other than complaints about my solution.

I could have experimented and gotten data from unbiased sources and still, people wouldn't agree.

Day one I said proc sets were OP. Many disagreed.
Day one I said certain sets were OP. Many disagreed.
Day one I said Mythics were OP. Many disagreed.
Day one I said "OakenSoul OP." many disagreed. (Oakensoul was not a mythic it was the utter destruction of the fabric of the game day one.)

NB and DK is not right of course...many disagree. Nobody wants to fix an exploit. Nobody wants to fix an advantage. Nobody wants to own up to having an advantage, because they want to feel superior.

Just like I said with oaken soul when it came out day one. If one can admit that they have a broken advantage over others, I will allow it. It's when one sits there and acts like they don't that rubs me wrong.

NB DK have a clear advantage over others. Every time I use the same build on them, I get multi kills. ZoS can fix this easily by strengthening other classes. Yet they don't.

Arcanist is a JOKE in pvp. The only reason why people are dying in PVP to arcanist is because they don't know all of their skills and how they work yet.

[edited to remove quote]

We have already provided information on the subject. We have already noted the solution is and has been in the game. It is the numerous counters to cloak that have been proven time and time again to work very well.

So the suggestion is to start using the counters and find what works best for you.

There you have it. This should always be the first action taken instead of logging out and then most likely coming straight to the forums and making demands for nerfs.

Galeriano

Although ramping cost doesn't sound right from balance perspective, some form of drawback should be introduced to cloak.

It could for example block the ability to enter stealth with crouch afterwards for a certain period of time or it could extend duration of dodge roll fatigue or just add stacks to it. It could also go with the different approach and drastically lower healing recived while in cloak, something that some of the other games are doing.

Amottica

SandandStars wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Nightblade cloak is already held to much higher standards. We have many skills that pull NBs out of cloak with several of them preventing the use of cloak for a short duration. These skills have been proven to work well.

Hi @Amottica , based on your insightful and helpful comments I see, I think you know the game very well; however, the 2 skills ppl use the most to pull NBs out of Cloak, Flare & Inner Light, do not prevent NBs from immediately recloaking. I’ve carefully observed/documented this multiple times.

There is either a trick some NBs know, or a straight up bug. I am on Xbox NA, and at least 80% of the time I use these skills (typically Lingering Flare), the NB is revealed then immediately recloaks.

I’ve seen this in Bug Reports but there has been no developer/ZOS response.

It makes cloak a great deal more powerful & effective in PvP.

Bugs are things devs need to fix. The skill itself, and the numerous counters, is a good design. The same issue would occur if they did go down the unwise route of adding the increased cost and that bugs out.

fastolfv_ESO

if you look at cloak style abilitys in literally any mmo since the dawn of mmos you will see a massive cooldown or being done in ultimate style. The idea of spammable cloak is the most rediculous concept they cold have come up with, it needs to come with drawbacks to being used and easily accessible counters if its going to be spammable

mb10

They already butchered cloak when you could start taking damage in it smh

Amottica

Galeriano wrote: »

Although ramping cost doesn't sound right from balance perspective, some form of drawback should be introduced to cloak.

It could for example block the ability to enter stealth with crouch afterwards for a certain period of time or it could extend duration of dodge roll fatigue or just add stacks to it. It could also go with the different approach and drastically lower healing recived while in cloak, something that some of the other games are doing.

This solution is already in the game. There are hard counters that prevent the immediate return to cloak or sneak. All we have to do is choose to use it. We often have someone who is running a hard counter.

Amottica

fastolfv_ESO wrote: »

if you look at cloak style abilitys in literally any mmo since the dawn of mmos you will see a massive cooldown or being done in ultimate style. The idea of spammable cloak is the most rediculous concept they cold have come up with, it needs to come with drawbacks to being used and easily accessible counters if its going to be spammable

Those games are not comparable. In those games, only specific classes could sneak around. In ESO everyone can sneak which is why we have a completely different design than those other games. We also have soft and hard counters to sneak and cloak whereas in many of those other games, any counter to stealth is usually limited to specific classes.

So not so ridiculous.

Xandreia_

Detect pots

wolfie1.0.

I mean they could just limit pvp to weapon and armor skills....

WalkingBomb

ArchMikem wrote: »

You can't counter Streak. Two casts and they're well out of range of anything you can do to them..

Have you tried holding down a movement key and simply sprinting faster than the streak goes?

Rowjoh

Sorry but the OP and those agreeing are mis-informed and 100% wrong.

Stealth is no longer viable in PVP (redundant in PVE) as there is now so much that pulls a Nightblade out of cloak its a wonder anyone uses it anymore. Plus the cost is already high for the stronger stamina NB too.

And the pièce de résistance is the recent buff to 'Detect Potions' and sets that have a detect mechanic on them, up from 20 metres to 43 metres !

It's pretty clear the majority jumping on this 'nerf it!' bandwagon have next to no knowledge of the class, the skill and the easy counters available to all.

R.I.P. pvp stealth/ganking/scouting etc.

merevie

Ways to reveal nb:
siege
aoe
pots
magelight
FG
pets
put a dot on the nb that will tick and reveal them -lots are 15 secs+
run anywhere near other people doing any of these

A 2 or 3 sec cloak isn't a threat against all of that.

There is even a mythic that prevents you being ganked to wear.

Good players also have a multitude of ways of bouncing that damage back in a nb's face.

and some players block

biminirwb17_ESO

Mudcrabs break Cloak - give NBs a break guys,

WaywardArgonian

This is not an attack or provocation, but a genuine question, as I do wonder how many of the people who argue in favor of a ramping cloak cost have actually extensively played a Nightblade in PVP. As I found that having experienced cloak mechanics first-hand made me realize it's not as great as it might look, as well as enabling me to counter it pretty easily when I'm facing other NBs.

Usually, Nightblades who rely heavily on cloak aren't the cream of the crop, as the skill is too easily countered. If you're countered and you have no plan B, you're toast.

When I look at my more competent friends who play Nightblade, none of them use cloak as their primary defensive tool. Some of them straight-up don't slot it. If this skill is so broken and problematic, how come it is not even a given on a Nightblade's skillbar? If you want to talk about what makes Nightblades hard to deal with defensively these days, it'd make much more sense to focus on their healing prowess. Just standing in Refreshing Path and spamming Healthy Offering even makes squishblades seem tanky. And purely from a hard-to-counter point of view, something like Teleport Shade is way more frustrating to deal with than cloak.

Rowjoh

merevie wrote: »

Ways to reveal nb:
siege
aoe
pots
magelight
FG
pets
put a dot on the nb that will tick and reveal them -lots are 15 secs+
run anywhere near other people doing any of these

A 2 or 3 sec cloak isn't a threat against all of that.

There is even a mythic that prevents you being ganked to wear.

Good players also have a multitude of ways of bouncing that damage back in a nb's face.

and some players block

this says it all.

...also Revealing Flare (Alliance skill line) along with the fact that most of the NB's own skills take them out of cloak!

In actual fact 'Cloak' needs to be made much more effective as its viability has been eroded to near uselessness!

Xandreia_

Rowjoh wrote: »

.

R.I.P. pvp stealth/ganking/scouting etc.

Rip ganking? I get ganked multiple times a day by multiple people. We must not be playing the same game 😂

Rowjoh

Xandreia_ wrote: »

Rowjoh wrote: »

.

R.I.P. pvp stealth/ganking/scouting etc.

Rip ganking? I get ganked multiple times a day by multiple people. We must not be playing the same game 😂

you're wanting us to assume that only nightblades are responsible for your demise when other classes are more than capable of successfully ganking - stealthing, some gear sets and invisibilty potions are open to all !

and if you're getting hit as much as multiple times a day it'll have nothing to do with just one specific skill or class...