It's time to uphold NB Cloak to the same standards!

Redguards_Revenge

No questions.

Cloak should ramp up in cost after being spammed within x seconds.(5 seconds)

Cloak is similar to roll dodge, block and streak! If not better!

Roll dodge removes direct damage for the duration of the roll AoE, DoT still affect them and they are visible.

Block lowers direct damage, AoE, DoT still affect them, and they are visible. (I finally see why DoT builds are powerful, block doesn't block DoT lol)


Cloak removes direct damage AND Suppresses DoT? (I am not sure about AoE, does it matter? most AoEs are small. Not only that 2 seconds per tick for the larger ones give ample time to walk out of them with the weak damage.) Then they have a guaranteed critical strike or critical heal?

EDIT:
Cloak removes channels like Templar Beam and suppresses Templar Light. roll dodge, block, streak etc. doesn't. That's a partial purge. RAMP UP THE COST!
Stack that with Vampire and there is no other class quite like NB...NB has the highest crit in the game...probably crit damage...and a guaranteed crit...and then vampire gives it even more weapon damage? Come on.

Tell me how does one hide in light?

You know what I hate the most? When one is crouching, and the NB can see you while stealthed but you can't see them. Just to use a detect skill and see nothing still. Then they attack like it was such a surprise. No, I knew you were there for a while. Detection mechanics in the game let's you really get close in for a whiff, but I can't see you. I know you're there but I don't know where. It's like I am an Oblivion NPC.
:ENDEDIT

I find it strange and disconnected.

Just like when I jumped off the ledge in BGs and an arcanist charmed me and instead of hitting the ground it made me walk back up on the ledge 2 stories high. But That's a different post.

NBs aren't squishy. They choose to be squishy. Sorcs do as well, and they have to streak with a ramping cost while being seen.

NB's aren't glass because they are NBs...They are glass because of cloak.

Identity? Ask a templar what that means and see their identity ripped through 3 classes.

I have a song and it goes like this.

When I go in bgs all I see is, NB, DK , NB,DK,
When I go into cyrodil, I swallow the red pill because everyone is still, NB, DK, NB, DK,
Arcanist might be here and there, but then they'll still die everywhere there is NB, DK , NB, DK

Chorus
NB, DK, NB, DK
NB, DK ,NB, DK
Is this really OK?
NB, DK, NB, DK
NB, DK ,NB, DK
Do I really want to fight? (I didn't know if you guys were going to pronounce Dee-Kay... or say it DragonKnight so I tossed in both)

JerBearESO

Yeah it needs ramping cost, but could also use some quality of life. Like why are we still needing to recast it all the time. Make it a toggle already. Toggle with ramping cost.

Also, why does EVERYTHING take NB out of stealth now. Its own DoT skill takes it out of stealth.... Need indirect damage to never pull it from stealth once it has ramping cost.

BlueRaven

NB needs to change but not in the way suggested here.

Too much of their toolkit is pvp focused, the class needs to have greater pve emphasis. (Actually all classes do but nbs are by far the worst off.)

Too many useless pvp abilities and cloaks duration is far too short for pve. Also cloak does not need ramping costs, but needs to move away from being only a mag spell.

And beyond cloak they need more emphasis on being straightforward damage dealers particularly stam. They have too many just confusing abilities that rely on secondary spells.

Pvp is just a series of complaints, even if nbs were nerfed the community there would just focus on the next skill to demand nerfs upon.
Just base the game in pve, and whatever happens in pvp happens. Since they will never be happy, why try?

Norith_Gilheart_Flail

As a former NB main that I only persevered with as had lal motifs, furniture etc. I can both agree with you that it's a pain in PVP, but also totally useless in PVE, and yet, is one of the classes defining hallmarks.

I am on board with gutting it provided the class is completely shifted away from stealth and given new mechanics to make up for its departure.

Alternatively, I'd love to see it as a toggle where the stealth is in place until broken, and then either incurs a 10 second cool down or something, or an increase in cost as you suggested.

Four_Fingers

You will already be dead before it ramps. lol

Mayrael

OP's lack of knowledge about how cloak works tells everything what needs to be said. It's typical case "I have no idea how it works but it's to strong".

Dr_Con

Ramping costs is more than fair

Sarannah

Cloak should not get ramping costs... as cloak is used in PvE as well. Just do not allow re-cloaking when in combat(or only when in combat with another player). That also fixes the try and try and try again to kill someone playstyle. No re-cloaking during combat would add a risk to trying to gank someone from stealth.

Kisakee

Yeah, as if detection potions and skills aren't already enough to counter it...

You can't counter dodge rolls and Streak so there's a reason for ramping costs. Cloak can easily be dispelled or nullified in multiple ways and now you're asking to make it completely useless? Nerfing things is not the way to go just because people don't know how to handle them properly.

SaffronCitrusflower

Cloak very much needs to have a ramping cost, just like streak and other OP skills.

People have been calling for this for years though, so don't expect it to happen.

Other ways to make Cloak fair have also been suggested, like a 10 second cool down or can't cloak in combat have also been suggested for a long time now. Any of these options would make sense to me. The gank then disappear mechanic is just not fair. Players should not be able to disappear over and over again after initiating a fight.

Kisakee

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

Cloak very much needs to have a ramping cost, just like streak and other OP skills.

People have been calling for this for years though, so don't expect it to happen.

Other ways to make Cloak fair have also been suggested, like a 10 second cool down or can't cloak in combat have also been suggested for a long time now. Any of these options would make sense to me. The gank then disappear mechanic is just not fair and it attracts people who aren't looking to engage in fair fights.

So you feel umcomfortable with other people playstyles? Do you work against it in any way? Do you use detection potions? Detection skills? Maybe even the CP for it? Do you?

Starbridge84

Ramping cost is needed 100%!

Kisakee

It's just useless to argue with someone who doesn't have the understanding of things.

Starbridge84 wrote: »

Ramping cost is needed 100%!

No, it's not.

Starbridge84

Kisakee wrote: »

Ist just useless to argue with someone who doesn't have the understanding

Starbridge84 wrote: »

Ramping cost is needed 100%!

No, it's not.

I can see that you are in defense of NB and that's ok. The problem with NB cloak is that some builds have unlimited sustain which means they can be invisible all the time even while attacking because a rotation where you can attack/cloak/attack/cloak doesn't seem a little broken to you? And yes, I have seen this tactic first hand as well as watched it done on streams. You can't streak or dodge roll unlimitedly, so why is cloak getting a pass?

Every damage tick a NB takes pulls them out of stealth, but it doesn't matter if you can just spam cloak. That needs to change and a ramping cost would balance it.

Kisakee

Starbridge84 wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

Ist just useless to argue with someone who doesn't have the understanding

Starbridge84 wrote: »

Ramping cost is needed 100%!

No, it's not.

The problem with NB cloak is that some builds have unlimited sustain.

How can ramping costs affect someone with unlimited sustain?

Starbridge84

Because eventually that cost will drain your bar so much that you can't recover it fast enough to cast. It's unlimited sustain right now because the cost to cast is so cheap compared to rate at which those builds can recover their magicka.

It's simple math.

Kisakee

Starbridge84 wrote: »

Because eventually that cost will drain your bar so much that you can't recover it fast enough to cast. It's unlimited sustain right now because the cost to cast is so cheap compared to rate at which those builds can recover their magicka.

It's simple math.

They would simply pull back for a couple seconds longer to get some more regen ticks in and come back at you right after. Unless you're a very experienced player that can take those couple seconds to its advantage it's doing nothing for you. Also gankers don't spam Cloak for the most part but only when they retreat or maybe 1-2 times on engaging in battle.

It would hardly make any difference on you as their target, you would be dead before the ramping costs kick in.

Amottica

Nightblade cloak is already held to much higher standards. We have many skills that pull NBs out of cloak with several of them preventing the use of cloak for a short duration. These skills have been proven to work well.

React

Yeah, this is a long overdue change.

Soarora

As someone who uses radiating magelight, I don’t see the problem with NB cloak. Just use a reveal and laugh as they can’t go back into stealth.

Mayrael

Starbridge84 wrote: »

Because eventually that cost will drain your bar so much that you can't recover it fast enough to cast. It's unlimited sustain right now because the cost to cast is so cheap compared to rate at which those builds can recover their magicka.

It's simple math.

Okay, I'll try just once because over the course of 9 years of playing ESO, I've learned that it's impossible to convince someone who lacks basic knowledge about the game because they will make up "facts" to fit their argument.

Contrary to what OP wrote, Shadowy Disguise does not affect the chance of a critical heal.
OP stated that AoE (Area of Effect) abilities are irrelevant when it comes to cloak, and that's the biggest nonsense because they are actually crucial when it comes to cloak because they simply interrupt it.
And now, the most important part. Cloak is not a skill that can be compared to streak/mist form or roll dodge, and now I ask for everyone's attention and focus because I'll be talking about the obvious things that everyone knows but are always twisted in cloak discussions: streak/mist form and roll dodge always work if we manage to use them and always guarantee the expected result - movement from point A to point B because that is their MAIN function, all other effects are just additional features that can be mitigated in various ways. However, it is an undeniable fact that movement from point A to B always takes place (unless we're dealing with a bug, which cannot be treated as a rule). In the case of cloak, it's a completely different matter. You can use cloak 3 times and still be in the same place, barely moved after each use, and even still be visible, which means that resources that could have been used for other defensive measures were wasted. AND THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF RISK ASSOCIATED WITH USING CLOAK, IT DOES NOT GUARANTEE AN EFFECT, NB MAKES A DECISION ON HOW TO USE MAGICKA AND IF SOMEONE COUNTERS IT SKILLFULLY, NB JUST WASTED MAGICKA ACHIEVING NOTHING, unlike the previously discussed cases with increasing cost. If Cloak guaranteed that no one would see us, then it should definitely have an increasing cost; otherwise, it's simply an unfair approach.

As for "infinite" sustain. You know, a much more effective way to survive with infinite sustain would be to use burst healing. Because cloak doesn't heal you, you can spam cloak indefinitely, and I can kill you by spamming a single AoE. However, if you spam any burst heal, I won't be able to do that.

Another overlooked fact is that infinite sustain is not free. To achieve it, you have to sacrifice damage or defense or other utility stuff. If a Nightblade wants to spam cloak endlessly, they need at least 2500-3000 magicka recovery depending on the build; any lower value will make your Magicka run out faster than you think. Do you know how much you have to sacrifice to have such sustain?

If someone wants to have a factual discussion on this topic, I'm more than willing, but I only discuss facts, not "personal feelings." Lack of knowledge doesn't justify anyone; I am ready to confront my statements in the game, what about you?

ArchMikem

You can't counter Streak. Two casts and they're well out of range of anything you can do to them.

Cloak. AoE's, Ability Detects, Detect Pots. Even the NB's own Dots they've placed brings them out whenever it ticks. Yes a gankblade is annoying bur this is a decayed Horse. Slot Magelight or Detect Pots and chase them down.

Heartrage

Cloak has a lot more restrictions and counter than roll dodge has, I don’t see why it should also be harder to keep active.

colossalvoids

So we're also giving cloak invinc frame or ability to eat up some last attacks when we're at it? You can spam it all you want for sure, but you're wasting resource and eating attacks at the same time, seems balanced for an ability to vanish on success.

Xarc

Heartrage wrote: »

Cloak has a lot more restrictions and counter than roll dodge has, I don’t see why it should also be harder to keep active.

'cause people have no idea how NB works

Tyrant_Tim

Cloak is the only ability in the game that requires you to use different potions or slot different abilities to counter, a ramping cost is more than fair.

Veterans Nightblades will find ways to work around it by simply roll dodging or blocking a second to reset the ICD, but the ramp would be at least something and a lot less severe than other possible solutions, like an added cast time.

Fight changing abilities tend to have cast times, so it makes little sense Cloak doesn’t have one.

Tyrant_Tim

ArchMikem wrote: »

You can't counter Streak. Two casts and they're well out of range of anything you can do to them.

Cloak. AoE's, Ability Detects, Detect Pots. Even the NB's own Dots they've placed brings them out whenever it ticks. Yes a gankblade is annoying bur this is a decayed Horse. Slot Magelight or Detect Pots and chase them down.

You can counter Streak with any gap closer in the game, which unlike Magelight or Camo Hunter have other uses than only appearing on your bar to counter one of the seven classes.

The passives are negligible.

Tommy_The_Gun

I think it is worth to clarify some things, as invisibility works differently than OP states. ZOS changes how invisibility works quite often . The way OP describes it makes me think that last time he/she played as a NB was around 3 or 2 years ago (if ever), because back then things were different than they are now:

- Cloak does not remove direct damage. If you cloak and you have incoming projectile, that was casted before you cloaked (example bow light attack), that projectile will still hit you and de-cloak you. Cloak only prevents you from being targeted (because you are invisible) by single target abilities.
- Any "direct damage" taken interrupts / breaks invisibility / cloak. So any aoe skill that does not require a target (example Arrow Spray & morphs) will hit cloaked nb / invisible vampire and remove invisibility effect. Sometimes it is even possible to LA even on melee range and if your stand close enough and if your attack animation started before NB hited cloak button - it will hit & remove invisibility.
- Cloak does not remove dots or aoe ground dots. You take that damage. If you are cloaked, enemy players can't see you, but you still take damage while being invisible.

Finally, Cloak does not have ramping cost for a couple of reasons. But most important one is the following situation:
- Imagine if it had ramping cost and one player would just be bow pew-pew-ing you. Every projectile casted before cloaking interrupts it. That is why players initially spam it. So Imagine if it had ramping cost. So that once you cast it 3 times over 2 - 3 seconds - your next 4th cast would cost 10K magicka.
- The other reason why cloak does not have ramping cost is directly connected to the 1st one. Cloak, if it gets interrupted even split second after being casted - you don't get your resources back that you have spent on casting it.
NBs if they want to actually stay invisible for longer, they have to cast it quite often (every 3 seconds). And if they are pressured they often tend to do a "cloak panic-spaming" to begin with. Only mag builds with huge mag sustain can actually use this for longer.
- Hard counters. The game has tons of them. For the most part those counters either cancel the skill or outright prevent the skill from being used (detection skills). Those "detection" skills are very often slotted just for a passive buff they offer (like major protection that flare gives).
- Buffed detection potions are also there, and while those are more a hard counter to crouch-sneak, will actually force a NB to run out of magicka as they will have to keep cloak UP for the entire duration of the potion that some one else used.

There is also one other thing. Streak vs Cloak. I really don't know why, but People very often wrongly compare cloak to streak, because both of those skill do something completely different, but those are iconic class skills.

Streak has ramping cost because you can not prevent someone from using it (only couter is to use a stationary sorc ulti - negate, but that is a poor counter), while cloak & invisibility can be blocked almost casually if you know what you are doing.

Fun fact from the past: I clearly remember "the old days" before streak had ramping cost. You know how places in between keeps in Cyrodill looked like back then ? Blue orbs hanging in the air every 8 - 10 meters. Everywhere. Why ? Because people were literally able to chain-cast streak and almost teleport between keeps.

Anyway, speaking about "same standards" - If Cloak would receive a ramping cost (just like streak has) - I would expect it so they would also put that in line and standardise it in a same manner as streak is - with no hard counters. They would have to remove all of the detection skills and detection potions... unless the goal is not to standardize skill, but just to nerf it so that people would not have to learn how to play.

Redguards_Revenge

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I think it is worth to clarify some things, as invisibility works differently than OP states. ZOS changes how invisibility works quite often . The way OP describes it makes me think that last time he/she played as a NB was around 3 or 2 years ago (if ever), because back then things were different than they are now:

- Cloak does not remove direct damage. If you cloak and you have incoming projectile, that was casted before you cloaked (example bow light attack), that projectile will still hit you and de-cloak you. Cloak only prevents you from being targeted (because you are invisible) by single target abilities.
- Any "direct damage" taken interrupts / breaks invisibility / cloak. So any aoe skill that does not require a target (example Arrow Spray & morphs) will hit cloaked nb / invisible vampire and remove invisibility effect. Sometimes it is even possible to LA even on melee range and if your stand close enough and if your attack animation started before NB hited cloak button - it will hit & remove invisibility.
- Cloak does not remove dots or aoe ground dots. You take that damage. If you are cloaked, enemy players can't see you, but you still take damage while being invisible.

Finally, Cloak does not have ramping cost for a couple of reasons. But most important one is the following situation:
- Imagine if it had ramping cost and one player would just be bow pew-pew-ing you. Every projectile casted before cloaking interrupts it. That is why players initially spam it. So Imagine if it had ramping cost. So that once you cast it 3 times over 2 - 3 seconds - your next 4th cast would cost 10K magicka.
- The other reason why cloak does not have ramping cost is directly connected to the 1st one. Cloak, if it gets interrupted even split second after being casted - you don't get your resources back that you have spent on casting it.
NBs if they want to actually stay invisible for longer, they have to cast it quite often (every 3 seconds). And if they are pressured they often tend to do a "cloak panic-spaming" to begin with. Only mag builds with huge mag sustain can actually use this for longer.
- Hard counters. The game has tons of them. For the most part those counters either cancel the skill or outright prevent the skill from being used (detection skills). Those "detection" skills are very often slotted just for a passive buff they offer (like major protection that flare gives).
- Buffed detection potions are also there, and while those are more a hard counter to crouch-sneak, will actually force a NB to run out of magicka as they will have to keep cloak UP for the entire duration of the potion that some one else used.

There is also one other thing. Streak vs Cloak. I really don't know why, but People very often wrongly compare cloak to streak, because both of those skill do something completely different, but those are iconic class skills.

Streak has ramping cost because you can not prevent someone from using it (only couter is to use a stationary sorc ulti - negate, but that is a poor counter), while cloak & invisibility can be blocked almost casually if you know what you are doing.

Fun fact from the past: I clearly remember "the old days" before streak had ramping cost. You know how places in between keeps in Cyrodill looked like back then ? Blue orbs hanging in the air every 8 - 10 meters. Everywhere. Why ? Because people were literally able to chain-cast streak and almost teleport between keeps.

Anyway, speaking about "same standards" - If Cloak would receive a ramping cost (just like streak has) - I would expect it so they would also put that in line and standardise it in a same manner as streak is - with no hard counters. They would have to remove all of the detection skills and detection potions... unless the goal is not to standardize skill, but just to nerf it so that people would not have to learn how to play.

Your last paragraph is not true. One can still target and see someone streaking. Hit the sorc harder next time. He'll die streaking. I've done it before. Removing detection has nothing to do with cloaking because people still crouch or run for 5 seconds as a vampire.

Meurto

Just like politics, everyone has an opinion, but lacks the understanding to arrive at an informed conclusion. There is a lot confirmation bias and an overwhelming absence of fundamental understanding of how cloak functions in addition to cloak counters. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

DrNukenstein

I'm totally down for a ramping cost once:

-Cloak becomes unbreakable
-suppresses dots again
-disjoints projectiles every time, not just the 1/10 times that your projectile got disjointed
-provides 100%crit chance for the entire global when attacking from cloak

Until then it is fine as it is and fair since a successful cloak while under pressure requires the use of multiple skills. On average 1 roll, 1 shade and/or RAT, and at least one cloak. An easy upwards of 6-8k magicka and 2-3k stamina for a potential reset on the fight if you can pull it off. Otherwise, you just burnt a bunch of resources for nothing and will lose because you relied on a very janky and fragile skill.