It's time to uphold NB Cloak to the same standards!

Redguards_Revenge

Meurto wrote: »

Just like politics, everyone has an opinion, but lacks the understanding to arrive at an informed conclusion. There is a lot confirmation bias and an overwhelming absence of fundamental understanding of how cloak functions in addition to cloak counters. [snip]

Can you, give me this understanding? Can you, help resolve the problem?

Regardless of how anything works it comes down to this.

Problem: Cloak is too OP.
Solution: Ramp up the cost.

I am willing to listen to any other solutions to the problem other than complaints about my solution.

I could have experimented and gotten data from unbiased sources and still, people wouldn't agree.

Day one I said proc sets were OP. Many disagreed.
Day one I said certain sets were OP. Many disagreed.
Day one I said Mythics were OP. Many disagreed.
Day one I said "OakenSoul OP." many disagreed. (Oakensoul was not a mythic it was the utter destruction of the fabric of the game day one.)

NB and DK is not right of course...many disagree. Nobody wants to fix an exploit. Nobody wants to fix an advantage. Nobody wants to own up to having an advantage, because they want to feel superior.

Just like I said with oaken soul when it came out day one. If one can admit that they have a broken advantage over others, I will allow it. It's when one sits there and acts like they don't that rubs me wrong.

NB DK have a clear advantage over others. Every time I use the same build on them, I get multi kills. ZoS can fix this easily by strengthening other classes. Yet they don't.

Arcanist is a JOKE in pvp. The only reason why people are dying in PVP to arcanist is because they don't know all of their skills and how they work yet.

[edited to remove quote]

wolfie1.0.

One can easily hide in light. There are reasons armies used to use dawn and dusk to fight. Fighter pilots in WW2 would use to try to attack so to have the sun at there backs to avoid detection. The light obscures vision just as much as darkness if there is too much of it. I think that instead of nerfing cloak that changes should be made to other classes to give them such a maneuver. As far as I am aware only templars don't have such a mechanism. So how about changing a skill so that they have a flashbang instead?

DrNukenstein

I will lay out simple and effective solutions for the stealth problem, that empower players who want to counter it and protects the play style for those that enjoy it. If you don't engage with the copious counters for stealth, then don't complain

-Mage light, and hunter should give the user (only the user) the same detection that detect pots give while active and the reveal radius should be increased to 12m.

-detect pots should have this same effect that a reworked hunter and magelight would have (user only, reveal radius), but last 15 seconds

-Introduce a new class of slottable. Trinkets. One of these choices of trinket could be some form of stationary detection with a significant cool down that gives vision of targets entering its perimeter. This one works great in games with strong stealth classes that need to be kept in check. This would be one more part of your build where you could decide to counter stealth.

-All hostile ground DOTs break stealth. If you were really trying to be sneaky, you wouldn't step in them

-First second of first contiguous cloak is unbreakable (aside from actual detect effects), but the first cast can't be made within 7 meters of an enemy or while being affected by a hostile channeled skill. This one would hurt since I love breaking the bow ult, that move is so lame. But if we want to point out the area where cloak really is OP it's the ability to break things like the bow ult.

There we have it. Improvement in the use and fairness of the tools that exist, a new spot to slot detection, ground hazards as a detection method, a transparent condition for when you can't cloak and a guarantee when you can cloak. Everyone who stealths or fights people who use stealth wins.

Tommy_The_Gun

Redguards_Revenge wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I think it is worth to clarify some things, as invisibility works differently than OP states. ZOS changes how invisibility works quite often . The way OP describes it makes me think that last time he/she played as a NB was around 3 or 2 years ago (if ever), because back then things were different than they are now:

- Cloak does not remove direct damage. If you cloak and you have incoming projectile, that was casted before you cloaked (example bow light attack), that projectile will still hit you and de-cloak you. Cloak only prevents you from being targeted (because you are invisible) by single target abilities.
- Any "direct damage" taken interrupts / breaks invisibility / cloak. So any aoe skill that does not require a target (example Arrow Spray & morphs) will hit cloaked nb / invisible vampire and remove invisibility effect. Sometimes it is even possible to LA even on melee range and if your stand close enough and if your attack animation started before NB hited cloak button - it will hit & remove invisibility.
- Cloak does not remove dots or aoe ground dots. You take that damage. If you are cloaked, enemy players can't see you, but you still take damage while being invisible.

Finally, Cloak does not have ramping cost for a couple of reasons. But most important one is the following situation:
- Imagine if it had ramping cost and one player would just be bow pew-pew-ing you. Every projectile casted before cloaking interrupts it. That is why players initially spam it. So Imagine if it had ramping cost. So that once you cast it 3 times over 2 - 3 seconds - your next 4th cast would cost 10K magicka.
- The other reason why cloak does not have ramping cost is directly connected to the 1st one. Cloak, if it gets interrupted even split second after being casted - you don't get your resources back that you have spent on casting it.
NBs if they want to actually stay invisible for longer, they have to cast it quite often (every 3 seconds). And if they are pressured they often tend to do a "cloak panic-spaming" to begin with. Only mag builds with huge mag sustain can actually use this for longer.
- Hard counters. The game has tons of them. For the most part those counters either cancel the skill or outright prevent the skill from being used (detection skills). Those "detection" skills are very often slotted just for a passive buff they offer (like major protection that flare gives).
- Buffed detection potions are also there, and while those are more a hard counter to crouch-sneak, will actually force a NB to run out of magicka as they will have to keep cloak UP for the entire duration of the potion that some one else used.

There is also one other thing. Streak vs Cloak. I really don't know why, but People very often wrongly compare cloak to streak, because both of those skill do something completely different, but those are iconic class skills.

Streak has ramping cost because you can not prevent someone from using it (only couter is to use a stationary sorc ulti - negate, but that is a poor counter), while cloak & invisibility can be blocked almost casually if you know what you are doing.

Fun fact from the past: I clearly remember "the old days" before streak had ramping cost. You know how places in between keeps in Cyrodill looked like back then ? Blue orbs hanging in the air every 8 - 10 meters. Everywhere. Why ? Because people were literally able to chain-cast streak and almost teleport between keeps.

Anyway, speaking about "same standards" - If Cloak would receive a ramping cost (just like streak has) - I would expect it so they would also put that in line and standardise it in a same manner as streak is - with no hard counters. They would have to remove all of the detection skills and detection potions... unless the goal is not to standardize skill, but just to nerf it so that people would not have to learn how to play.

Your last paragraph is not true. One can still target and see someone streaking. Hit the sorc harder next time. He'll die streaking. I've done it before. Removing detection has nothing to do with cloaking because people still crouch or run for 5 seconds as a vampire.

Yes. They can see people while they are using Bolt Escape. And Cloak does not teleport you 15 meters away + stun either. Both skills are different, and yet somehow people think that both should be treated in a same manner. That is my entire point. Those skills are different. They operate differently. The solutions that were used to balance out one skill, should not be used to balance out the other and vice-versa.

For instance - imagine if some one thought that it would be good idea to remove Streak ramping cost, but added tons of Detection Anti-teleport Skills... yeah... terrible idea.

Genfe

The other day I had to hit cloak at least 20 plus times for it to work. Literally got pulled out everytime from my own dots/other people. Then I got caught with camo. Survived only to have to hit it 10 more times before I got a full cloak duration.

Bucky_13

As a stamblade, I would be okay with ramping costs on one condition: Cloak cannot be countered whatsoever, Magelight, bombard etc cannot work on someone who is cloaked. There are so many ways to counter a cloaking nightblade that nerfing it is pointless. You might want to learn to counter them instead, it's not that hard.

Heartrage

DrNukenstein wrote: »

-Introduce a new class of slottable. Trinkets. One of these choices of trinket could be some form of stationary detection with a significant cool down that gives vision of targets entering its perimeter. This one works great in games with strong stealth classes that need to be kept in check. This would be one more part of your build where you could decide to counter stealth.

Revealing flare already does that and I sincerely doubt that they will add a new slotable anytime soon. It would be more logical to add a consumable that does the same like a throwing flask or something.

DrNukenstein

Heartrage wrote: »

Revealing flare already does that and I sincerely doubt that they will add a new slotable anytime soon. It would be more logical to add a consumable that does the same like a throwing flask or something.

Just one of several good ideas. There could be more options for trinkets too. Think like reusable, short duration, single effect potions. We could collect them all

omnidoh

Xarc wrote: »

'cause people have no idea how NB works

Basically this.
The lack of understanding and rampant ignorance boggles the mind of Hermaeus Mora himself.

I've been playing a NB for nearly a decade now, and throughout all the buffs, nerfs, adjustments, etc... I will never play another class that cannot break combat or circumvent undesired combat at will.
I simply won't.

That's not for a love of nightblade, no.
That's because no other class has an equivalent ability, when there were several options available to any player in all the classic elder scrolls games. Camouflage, invisibility, flat out mind-control, etc...

In classic Elder Scrolls, there were no classes, only skills.
If Zeni wants to be true to form, they need to remove "class" all together, or at least allow players to choose their own skill lines from the existing ones and math it up to prevent imbalanced combinations.

Even adding a ramp-up cost for Streak and other abilities was not true to form.
A spell or ability doesn't arbitrarily become more expensive just because you don't like how it works against you.
Bullets don't require increasingly greater amounts of gun-powder to fire simply because you don't like that you're getting swiss-cheesed by a mini-gun.

That's now how this works.
That's not how ANY of this works.

Those changes were made due to counterplay issues and development cost. That's all.

And as for those folks who say NB's are ineffective at PvE?
What plane of oblivion have you been on for the last decade?
I can assure you that as a NB player, I can tank, heal, dps, and function as utility for ALL content in this game; Normal, Veteran, Trial, Trifecta, etc with zero issues, and never even change my mundus, food buff, morphs, or champion points.
All I do is swap gear and abilities, and voila. No need to change anything else.
And no, I don't use one-bar builds or super-cheese uniques.
Granted I might not do 123,456,789K dps, but none of that is required for completing content in this game.
None of it is. Zero. Notta.

This game doesn't require Path of Exile levels of META to succeed at or enjoy. It simply doesn't.
I'm sure I'm not alone when I ask that folks please stop speaking for others (nightblade players) who not only disagree with you, but can consistently and unequivocally disprove baseless claims.

As for PvP, well... not gonna touch that with a million-league pole.
PvP will never be balanced, because it cannot be. PvP is a war of attrition via reflex and Min/Maxed opportunity. For now, that realm belongs to the Nightblades. Don't like it? Call your Zeni-Congressman.

Vaqual

Thousand years from now archaeologists will dig up this forum, try to translate ancient threads and conclude that they found some kind if ritual that was conducted here regularly: nerf cloak threads with the same five arguments.

[snip]
[edited for trolling]

ArchMikem

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Cloak is the only ability in the game that requires you to use different potions or slot different abilities to counter, a ramping cost is more than fair.

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

You can't counter Streak. Two casts and they're well out of range of anything you can do to them.

Cloak. AoE's, Ability Detects, Detect Pots. Even the NB's own Dots they've placed brings them out whenever it ticks. Yes a gankblade is annoying bur this is a decayed Horse. Slot Magelight or Detect Pots and chase them down.

You can counter Streak with any gap closer in the game, which unlike Magelight or Camo Hunter have other uses than only appearing on your bar to counter one of the seven classes.

The passives are negligible.

I'd call gap closers to be a "different ability" for some, they're not required for all builds and sometimes they just don't weigh enough in value on people's crowded bars. Mage/Inner Light also is a very prominent passive ability for Magicka characters. Mine won't go into the world without it.

I'll add, that making Cloak more costly to use is more or less forcing Nightblades into different builds to compensate. Armor isn't our defense, Invisibility is. Everyone should admit these complaints against Nightblade Cloak are first and foremost born from frustration having to fight them. (I was one of you, once. Still am, a little bit) This isn't about what's fair, it's about righting a misplaced sense of feeling like you're at a disadvantage. There have been hard counters to Invisibility, I see MANY in Campaign using them in their builds to great success, whether it be Magelight, Camo Hunter, Detect Pots, Revealing Flare, or really just Heavy Armor/Crit Resist/Overheals. More and more are kitted out to negate NightBlades, and then we get bagged relentlessly. There's already a permanent stigma/prejudice against those playing Nightblades the way ZOS wanted us to and then people want them neutered because they're still annoying to deal with.

These complaints and suggested changes, in the name of "what's fair" is just pushing everyone to become a Two Handed Heavy armor Brawler build.

ArchangelIsraphel

I don't even PVP on a NB and I think this is a bad idea >_>

Weckless

Cloak doesnt suppress dots anymore. They changed that over a year ago

Weckless

Redguards_Revenge wrote: »

No questions.

Tell me how does one hide in light?

You know what I hate the most? When one is crouching, and the NB can see you while stealthed but you can't see them. Just to use a detect skill and see nothing still. Then they attack like it was such a surprise. No, I knew you were there for a while. Detection mechanics in the game let's you really get close in for a whiff, but I can't see you. I know you're there but I don't know where. It's like I am an Oblivion NPC.
:ENDEDIT

This is actually flat out wrong. Cloak has progressively become worse and worse as a defensive option patch after patch. Its the most unreliable form of defense in the game. A lot of the time reveal skills arent even required because if you have at least 2 or 3 people on you one of them will for sure bug you out of stealth almost every time. They just increased the range on detect pots to a stupid degree as well. 43 meters doesnt make sense, 28 is the highest it reasonably should be as any farther than that and they cant even hit you so that was a pretty dumb change.

And i say all of this to agree though. I think cloak should have a ramping cost but only if they actually fix it and make it work. If not the ramping cost should only kick in if you get your whole 3 seconds of invisibility or you attack and break it yourself, then in that case you get a 50% increase for 3 seconds. If its broken (not by a reveal) by a gap closer someone used right as you cloak and they bug you out of it or some lightning heavy attack sticks to you after you cloak then no cost increase. As a matter of fact you should get a 100% decrease to the next cloak when that happens /s

Gnesnig

As a PVE stamblade, cloak isn't overpowered either. Yes, guaranteed crit. But also less attacks. For example, I don't use cloak in most execute stages, cause I can on average do more damage because I can land more Killer's Blade, without cloaking first and some of those will crit anyway. I sometimes do it on vet hardmode with high hp mobs, as the first 2-3 hits of the execute stage, but since i'm not specced for high Magicka Regen, I prefer to refresh Swallow Soul after that.

It's fun to use as opening strike on overland mobs though. But mostly, I use it to ditch agro if tank dropped taunt or you're getting pounded too hard and want your companion to take a few hits while you recover. Since I'm using Mirri, we can ping pong agro a few times per fight this way.

Brrrofski

How are people still struggling to pull a NB out of stealth in 2023?

Weckless

Sarannah wrote: »

Cloak should not get ramping costs... as cloak is used in PvE as well. Just do not allow re-cloaking when in combat(or only when in combat with another player). That also fixes the try and try and try again to kill someone playstyle. No re-cloaking during combat would add a risk to trying to gank someone from stealth.

No this is a horrible idea and no it's not used in pve its a pvp skill don't try and steal it and make it worthless for its intended use. Seriously if you couldn't use it in combat then literally what is the point of the skill when you can just sneak at that point

Weckless

Starbridge84 wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

Ist just useless to argue with someone who doesn't have the understanding

Starbridge84 wrote: »

Ramping cost is needed 100%!

No, it's not.

I can see that you are in defense of NB and that's ok. The problem with NB cloak is that some builds have unlimited sustain which means they can be invisible all the time even while attacking because a rotation where you can attack/cloak/attack/cloak doesn't seem a little broken to you? And yes, I have seen this tactic first hand as well as watched it done on streams. You can't streak or dodge roll unlimitedly, so why is cloak getting a pass?

Every damage tick a NB takes pulls them out of stealth, but it doesn't matter if you can just spam cloak. That needs to change and a ramping cost would balance it.

If a nb is cloaking every other attack and you are dying to that its not a cloak problem its a skill issue. Having a full second to heal every other gcd is enough to easily keep you alive and still kill them at the same time

Weckless

Kisakee wrote: »

Starbridge84 wrote: »

Because eventually that cost will drain your bar so much that you can't recover it fast enough to cast. It's unlimited sustain right now because the cost to cast is so cheap compared to rate at which those builds can recover their magicka.

It's simple math.

They would simply pull back for a couple seconds longer to get some more regen ticks in and come back at you right after. Unless you're a very experienced player that can take those couple seconds to its advantage it's doing nothing for you. Also gankers don't spam Cloak for the most part but only when they retreat or maybe 1-2 times on engaging in battle.

It would hardly make any difference on you as their target, you would be dead before the ramping costs kick in.

Exactly. Even if they added ramping costs the players actually asking for it would not notice a difference. No nb worth mentioning uses cloak in a manner that they would even suffer from it outside of hauling ass to get some breathing room

Saint-Ange

[snip]

It's impossible to balance both PvP and PvE, so let's the great split happen.
We PvE players have had enough to always getting the short end of the stick [snip]

[edited for bashing and inappropriate content]

Gnesnig

Saint-Ange wrote: »

[snip]

It's impossible to balance both PvP and PvE, so let's the great split happen.
We PvE players have had enough to always getting the short end of the stick [snip]

[edited for bashing and inappropriate content]

As a PVE player, I'd like to distance myself from this kind of stigtatisation and polarisation.

[Edited for quote]

colossalvoids

Weckless wrote: »

Starbridge84 wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

Ist just useless to argue with someone who doesn't have the understanding

Starbridge84 wrote: »

Ramping cost is needed 100%!

No, it's not.

I can see that you are in defense of NB and that's ok. The problem with NB cloak is that some builds have unlimited sustain which means they can be invisible all the time even while attacking because a rotation where you can attack/cloak/attack/cloak doesn't seem a little broken to you? And yes, I have seen this tactic first hand as well as watched it done on streams. You can't streak or dodge roll unlimitedly, so why is cloak getting a pass?

Every damage tick a NB takes pulls them out of stealth, but it doesn't matter if you can just spam cloak. That needs to change and a ramping cost would balance it.

If a nb is cloaking every other attack and you are dying to that its not a cloak problem its a skill issue. Having a full second to heal every other gcd is enough to easily keep you alive and still kill them at the same time

I'd love fighting those cloak spam nb's giving me breathing room every second gcd while wasting theirs.

ebix_

as a melee blade if you rely on your cloak for survival you will die 95% of the times, unless you are fighting players who dont know how to counter it. the most random things breaks cloak and you have to cast it multiple times so its worse than having a ramping cost right now.

Kisakee

Weckless wrote: »

Redguards_Revenge wrote: »

No questions.

Tell me how does one hide in light?

You know what I hate the most? When one is crouching, and the NB can see you while stealthed but you can't see them. Just to use a detect skill and see nothing still. Then they attack like it was such a surprise. No, I knew you were there for a while. Detection mechanics in the game let's you really get close in for a whiff, but I can't see you. I know you're there but I don't know where. It's like I am an Oblivion NPC.
:ENDEDIT

And i say all of this to agree though. I think cloak should have a ramping cost but only if they actually fix it and make it work

Dunno how much of that was sarcasm but if anything they need to fix Cloak first and THEN we can talk about ramping cost and what we get in return.

Weckless

colossalvoids wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

Starbridge84 wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

Ist just useless to argue with someone who doesn't have the understanding

Starbridge84 wrote: »

Ramping cost is needed 100%!

No, it's not.

I can see that you are in defense of NB and that's ok. The problem with NB cloak is that some builds have unlimited sustain which means they can be invisible all the time even while attacking because a rotation where you can attack/cloak/attack/cloak doesn't seem a little broken to you? And yes, I have seen this tactic first hand as well as watched it done on streams. You can't streak or dodge roll unlimitedly, so why is cloak getting a pass?

Every damage tick a NB takes pulls them out of stealth, but it doesn't matter if you can just spam cloak. That needs to change and a ramping cost would balance it.

If a nb is cloaking every other attack and you are dying to that its not a cloak problem its a skill issue. Having a full second to heal every other gcd is enough to easily keep you alive and still kill them at the same time

I'd love fighting those cloak spam nb's giving me breathing room every second gcd while wasting theirs.

Right. Won't even have to scramble to roll after their incap. They'll delay and disrupt the combo on their own

Weckless

Kisakee wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

Redguards_Revenge wrote: »

No questions.

Tell me how does one hide in light?

You know what I hate the most? When one is crouching, and the NB can see you while stealthed but you can't see them. Just to use a detect skill and see nothing still. Then they attack like it was such a surprise. No, I knew you were there for a while. Detection mechanics in the game let's you really get close in for a whiff, but I can't see you. I know you're there but I don't know where. It's like I am an Oblivion NPC.
:ENDEDIT

And i say all of this to agree though. I think cloak should have a ramping cost but only if they actually fix it and make it work

Dunno how much of that was sarcasm but if anything they need to fix Cloak first and THEN we can talk about ramping cost and what we get in return.

Honestly i really would like it to have ramping cost of its being used in succession. And I main nightblade. But if they do this then they need to fix it first and a properly dependable cloak is worth the tradeoff of a lil ramping increase in cost. Using it back to back is never really a good move unless you're running or kiting in which case a few cloaks will usually give you the chance to get into a good position to get all that extra mag spent back. This way those annoying gankers might actually have to play the game and fight more often.

edward_frigidhands

You should update the topic title to reference "Shadowy Disguise" so everyone knows what you are talking about.

https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/shadowy-disguise

NordSwordnBoard

As a non NB main who's also used NB for ganking and relied on cloak with a bomb blade, it's not OP.
It can be used by skillfull players to outsmart the best pvpers and certain circumstances will make it look OP. Streak looks OP in the right hands, as well as a host of class defining unique skills.
I prefer opponents who can think, and yet I respect the planned choreography and teamwork of pve. @Saint-Ange No need to be disrepectful, sensible pvp players consider how nerfs effect all players.

BlueRaven

Weckless wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Cloak should not get ramping costs... as cloak is used in PvE as well. Just do not allow re-cloaking when in combat(or only when in combat with another player). That also fixes the try and try and try again to kill someone playstyle. No re-cloaking during combat would add a risk to trying to gank someone from stealth.

No this is a horrible idea and no it's not used in pve its a pvp skill don't try and steal it and make it worthless for its intended use. Seriously if you couldn't use it in combat then literally what is the point of the skill when you can just sneak at that point

Wut??!!

My vampire nb assassin would beg to differ. As would my kahjiit nb thief.

I use it in pve all the time. It goes beyond class identity, it’s fundamentally useful for pve dailies and making lots of gold.

Pvp players should not steal and wreck it. Cloak has a ton of counters in pvp, you can put a lot less effort into fixing your issues by just utilizing one of them.

Weckless

BlueRaven wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Cloak should not get ramping costs... as cloak is used in PvE as well. Just do not allow re-cloaking when in combat(or only when in combat with another player). That also fixes the try and try and try again to kill someone playstyle. No re-cloaking during combat would add a risk to trying to gank someone from stealth.

No this is a horrible idea and no it's not used in pve its a pvp skill don't try and steal it and make it worthless for its intended use. Seriously if you couldn't use it in combat then literally what is the point of the skill when you can just sneak at that point

Wut??!!

My vampire nb assassin would beg to differ. As would my kahjiit nb thief.

I use it in pve all the time. It goes beyond class identity, it’s fundamentally useful for pve dailies and making lots of gold.

Pvp players should not steal and wreck it. Cloak has a ton of counters in pvp, you can put a lot less effort into fixing your issues by just utilizing one of them.

I was being hyperbolic because the person before me said that cloak was a pve skill which is ridiculous. I agree it has its uses in both but if you were to pick which one it was more integrated and part of then pvp is the obvious answer. Pve uses cloak in niche situations and to avoid content and takes it off their bar when it comes time to fight. Pvp actually uses it in combat and how its "generally" expected to be used.