It's time to uphold NB Cloak to the same standards!

Lumsdenml

The cost does not need to be ramped up. NB are Squishy and cloak is their main defense. I dont hear anyone calling to ramping up cost on shields where there are very few counters...

Weckless

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

A cloaked NB not only is not revealed when hit with player skills, they don't even take damage. As it is now a cloaked NB can stand right in front of a player using an AOE and nothing what so ever happens to them, they are not revealed and they don't take damage.

It's a broken system as it is now.

This is a flat out lie lol good try though. Its actually hilarious tbh i almost want to respect the audacity it takes to say something so silly

ProudMary

Weckless wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

A cloaked NB not only is not revealed when hit with player skills, they don't even take damage. As it is now a cloaked NB can stand right in front of a player using an AOE and nothing what so ever happens to them, they are not revealed and they don't take damage.

It's a broken system as it is now.

This is a flat out lie lol good try though. Its actually hilarious tbh i almost want to respect the audacity it takes to say something so silly

I see what Saffron is saying happen every day. A cloaked NB can stand right in front of someone who uses a skill like "bombard", and nothing happens to the NB. The NB doesn't get revealed and they don't take damage.

Tommy_The_Gun

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

A cloaked NB not only is not revealed when hit with player skills, they don't even take damage. As it is now a cloaked NB can stand right in front of a player using an AOE and nothing what so ever happens to them, they are not revealed and they don't take damage.

It's a broken system as it is now.

Cloak or invisibility does not prevent taking damage. It only prevents you from being targeted by single target skills. DOTs do not interrupt cloak, but you take all of the DOT damage (including AOE DOT). Direct damage does break the cloak.

Using a heal over time however (like Vigor) before casting cloak is something common. Furthermore, healing potion can also be used while invisible, so yeah, if someone is inexperienced, it may look like NB that was de-cloaked & cloaked again and was de-cloaked again did not took dmg or took minimal damage - but if you would pressure them more afterwards they would not have any healing buffer left and their HP bar would start to go down.

ProudMary wrote: »

I see what Saffron is saying happen every day. A cloaked NB can stand right in front of someone who uses a skill like "bombard", and nothing happens to the NB. The NB doesn't get revealed and they don't take damage.

Well, as some one who is often at "the receiving end" I will say that Arrow Spray & morphs do interrupt cloak & invisibility and it needs to be re-casted. But the thing is that Arrow Spray & morphs only has around 20 meters range and as far as I am aware is not increased by any passive that normally would increase ranged abilities in Cyro. It is also a Cone, so more experienced NBs after being de-clokaed will use a speed buff (like RAT), then cloak and either move away so that the "cone" would not hit them, or would run away from the range altogether using CC immunity (after breaking free) - since nowadays reaching a speed cap on any class is not that hard.

Redguards_Revenge

So ok, how about this, ZoS adds this on vampire tree, as vampire, the cost of cloak ramps up cost. If you're not Vampire then.. you don't get a ramp up.

Is this not fair or what?

EDIT: sorry that other text was from some 2 weeks ago that was still in the save draft I forgot to delete lol. Not sure how many eyes saw that. The one right now in here is what I meant to say.

Weckless

ProudMary wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

A cloaked NB not only is not revealed when hit with player skills, they don't even take damage. As it is now a cloaked NB can stand right in front of a player using an AOE and nothing what so ever happens to them, they are not revealed and they don't take damage.

It's a broken system as it is now.

This is a flat out lie lol good try though. Its actually hilarious tbh i almost want to respect the audacity it takes to say something so silly

I see what Saffron is saying happen every day. A cloaked NB can stand right in front of someone who uses a skill like "bombard", and nothing happens to the NB. The NB doesn't get revealed and they don't take damage.

Then you are simply not hitting them. I assure you if that nightblade is in the area that your bombard is hitting in they will be uncloaked and take damage and be immobilized. Position desync is the only time it would appear this happens but it isnt because cloak is making them invincible its just that they werent where you thought they were and would happen with anyone not just cloaking nightblades.

ksbrugh

Ramping cost for a skill that does not instantly dart you away 12 m and or blocks direct damage thrown at you.

There are multiple defenses against cloak like detect pots, spells even a whole five piece armor set that when crouching you detect stelthed enemies.

So you suppose we should add the reduced the cost of cloak to the will fitted trait for armor like roll Dodge or absorb direct damage if cloak fails. Now I would go for the absorbed direct damage when cloak fails bawhahahahaha give it to me!!!!!

I want a spell pot that when I take it no sorcerers can streak away from me for 15 seconds in a 48 m radius or add that ability to mage light. Might as well add prevent mist form as well. And don't forget no stun from streak if the pot is active

Shadow cloak has been a staple for that class since the beginning it should not occur a ramping cost. Too many ways of detecting a steslthed individual.

And yes I run a nightblade but I also run a Templar and a DK and a warden. It hurts when they pop out and kill you or almost kill you but nine times out of 10 I find them and kill them before they can get away. I have the detect pots always ready to go and mage light why wouldn't you.

ksbrugh

ProudMary wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

A cloaked NB not only is not revealed when hit with player skills, they don't even take damage. As it is now a cloaked NB can stand right in front of a player using an AOE and nothing what so ever happens to them, they are not revealed and they don't take damage.

It's a broken system as it is now.

This is a flat out lie lol good try though. Its actually hilarious tbh i almost want to respect the audacity it takes to say something so silly

I see what Saffron is saying happen every day. A cloaked NB can stand right in front of someone who uses a skill like "bombard", and nothing happens to the NB. The NB doesn't get revealed and they don't take damage.

Link video please or otherwise?

ADarklore

Just NO! The ONLY reason I ever played a NB in ESO was because I could continuously cloak past enemies so I wouldn't be forced into combat when I just had to pick up quest items. Adding a ramping cost would all but gut the NB in PVE for those who use it mostly for making questing easier.

I know if this were to ever change, I would just delete my NB and never, ever create another one. Sorry, but NB has had this ability since the very beginning, if you as a player cannot figure out, like others have, how to counter it, then that's on you and not the game.

TheValkyn

ADarklore wrote: »

Just NO! The ONLY reason I ever played a NB in ESO was because I could continuously cloak past enemies so I wouldn't be forced into combat when I just had to pick up quest items. Adding a ramping cost would all but gut the NB in PVE for those who use it mostly for making questing easier.

I know if this were to ever change, I would just delete my NB and never, ever create another one. Sorry, but NB has had this ability since the very beginning, if you as a player cannot figure out, like others have, how to counter it, then that's on you and not the game.

Please, help me understand. Do you want this ability to remain intact so you don't have to interact with the game's core gameplay loop?

Gruumsh1

"Some men just want to watch the world burn...."

SaffronCitrusflower

Cloak continues to be one of the most unsportsmanlike and broken mechanics ever to be put into a PvP environment. It was a mistake from day one to make it possible for people to be in combat while also being invisible.

mb10

You've got people who main classes that have HoTs, cleanse, AoE burst damage etc moaning about cloak.

The pretty much whole NB kit is single target. I'd argue its the most outdated class of them all. The comparison between NB and Arcanist is actually hiliarious.

The ONLY unique thing NBs have going for them is cloak and even that has been butchered because you can take DoT damage in it now and even die to that. If you try to heal through it, it takes you out of cloak.
The other morph? You have to stand STILL to get a below average HoT.

I dont mind a ramping cost but the no DoT damage in it has to return or what on Earth is the point of a ramping cost, taking damage within it AND not being able to heal or it will break the cloak?

Alharion

the arcanist is already enough to be toxic for NB, NB is practically unplayable now because of this class of misfortune...

Amottica

Galeriano wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Although ramping cost doesn't sound right from balance perspective, some form of drawback should be introduced to cloak.

It could for example block the ability to enter stealth with crouch afterwards for a certain period of time or it could extend duration of dodge roll fatigue or just add stacks to it. It could also go with the different approach and drastically lower healing recived while in cloak, something that some of the other games are doing.

This solution is already in the game. There are hard counters that prevent the immediate return to cloak or sneak. All we have to do is choose to use it. We often have someone who is running a hard counter.

If this would be reliable solution the same debate about cloak wouldn't go for almost 10 years.

Problem with solutions You are talking about is that they are often unreliable and they are not on the user's side forcing attackers to make sacrifices when cloak user makes none. Nightblade can even counter these solutions, often pretty easily, still without the need to slot any additional skills over what he would be normally using. They are not hard counters and in all honestly they shouldn't be. Stealth playstyle deserves to have a place in the game but cloak itself should have a drawback built in, same like abilities like streak or mist form have.

While bugs do occur in the game, this has been a reliable solution. I know because I have used it when playing solo and our group has at least one person with a hard counter slotted. And yes, there are hard counters to sneak and stealth in the game.

As far as an NB being able to counter being pulled out of stealth, well, an experienced NB will not be a one-button wonder. Just like any other skilled and experienced, they will utilize the tools they have available. It is what makes much of the difference between an experienced player and one that is less experienced.

It wasn't and still isn't a reliable solution unless by reliable You mean capable to work fine against unexperienced solo wondering players relying too heavily on cloak alone, panicking if cloak fails even once. Bugs have nothing to do with these solutions being unreliable in their core. There really isn't a true hard counter to the invisibility part of the nightblade's stealth playstyle.

Of course, the counter to cloak is more effective against the less experienced NB as the more experienced one utilizes more tools than just a cloak. So I fail to see the point in bringing that up. But the fact remains there are both hard and soft counters to cloak. The hard ones do in fact put a debuff on the NB (or any player sneaking) that prevents them from entering stealth for a few seconds, enough to do some real damage and then refresh the counter. It works and works very well against NBs that rely on cloak. I know they are reliable in their core because I use them.

Weckless

Im ngl I try to be honest and the whole prevent the NB from recloaking seems to not work more than it does but cloak fails when it shouldnt so much that it's a step towards evening it out imo

Quackery

I hate nightblades, but the 45 meter detect pot is just ridiculous. It's removing the joy of playing as a nightblade. Just restore the detect pot to what it was and implement the other changes the OP mentions.

Lumsdenml

Dekrypted wrote: »

The fact that it doesnt have a ramping cost increase and any refusal to acknowledge why it doesnt by the developers after this long would only show that there is a bias toward the ability and the class.

Put the ramping cost on the ability. It's the right thing to do.

Why? This thread has already explained how many counters to cloak exist in the game. Is it because of streak? How many counters to streak are there? How about shield? No, ramping up cost is NOT the right thing to do.

Devonax

I do not think it should be a cost/sec thing.. I do not play NBs but I have played against A LOT of them in pvp.. To me they are cowards. When they cannot make it in battle they cloak and scurry off to try again next time.. See to many enemies coming, cloak and move.. I know it makes me sound like I'm crying here but not being able to see or target your enemy is really OP.. and sure we can use detection potions but why should we use a consumable to be able to fight.. do NB or other classes need consumable to be able to counter other OP skills from other classes? I think not..

So... no cost/sec thing but a HYBRID cost...
Make it cost both stamina AND magicka to cloak. 55% procent of the current cost in magicka and stamina..
If they spam to stay in stealth at least its going from their damage resource..

this makes it much more fair in pvp imho.

Devonax

It will be a fight or flight choice instead of using cloak as a battle move..
It's not like Nb are low in damage.. they can kill a person in 3 sec if they are set up right.. so adding on a cloak to be used constantly in battle is OP and not necessary..

Or pull the other more pvp related skills up the the level of cloak..
Sorcerer's streak will not only do damage and stun but leave a debuff on any target so they cannot cloak for 5 sec.
The Templar's Jezus beam prevents NB from cloaking as long as the beam is on them..
The Shield stomp of the DK will uncloak any NB in a 10 meter proximity and stun them for 3 seconds when they are pulled out of stealth. etc.

Lumsdenml

Devonax wrote: »

It will be a fight or flight choice instead of using cloak as a battle move..
It's not like Nb are low in damage.. they can kill a person in 3 sec if they are set up right.. so adding on a cloak to be used constantly in battle is OP and not necessary..

Or pull the other more pvp related skills up the the level of cloak..
Sorcerer's streak will not only do damage and stun but leave a debuff on any target so they cannot cloak for 5 sec.
The Templar's Jezus beam prevents NB from cloaking as long as the beam is on them..
The Shield stomp of the DK will uncloak any NB in a 10 meter proximity and stun them for 3 seconds when they are pulled out of stealth. etc.

True, NB are not low on damage, but they are low in survivability. Cloak is not an offensive skill, it is defensive, so why is it being compared to offensive skills to "other more pvp related skills up the the level of cloak"?

Lumsdenml

Devonax wrote: »

I do not think it should be a cost/sec thing.. I do not play NBs but I have played against A LOT of them in pvp.. To me they are cowards. When they cannot make it in battle they cloak and scurry off to try again next time.. See to many enemies coming, cloak and move.. I know it makes me sound like I'm crying here but not being able to see or target your enemy is really OP.. and sure we can use detection potions but why should we use a consumable to be able to fight.. do NB or other classes need consumable to be able to counter other OP skills from other classes? I think not..

So... no cost/sec thing but a HYBRID cost...
Make it cost both stamina AND magicka to cloak. 55% procent of the current cost in magicka and stamina..
If they spam to stay in stealth at least its going from their damage resource..

this makes it much more fair in pvp imho.

So no one uses pots to counter CC?

Galeriano

Amottica wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Although ramping cost doesn't sound right from balance perspective, some form of drawback should be introduced to cloak.

It could for example block the ability to enter stealth with crouch afterwards for a certain period of time or it could extend duration of dodge roll fatigue or just add stacks to it. It could also go with the different approach and drastically lower healing recived while in cloak, something that some of the other games are doing.

This solution is already in the game. There are hard counters that prevent the immediate return to cloak or sneak. All we have to do is choose to use it. We often have someone who is running a hard counter.

If this would be reliable solution the same debate about cloak wouldn't go for almost 10 years.

Problem with solutions You are talking about is that they are often unreliable and they are not on the user's side forcing attackers to make sacrifices when cloak user makes none. Nightblade can even counter these solutions, often pretty easily, still without the need to slot any additional skills over what he would be normally using. They are not hard counters and in all honestly they shouldn't be. Stealth playstyle deserves to have a place in the game but cloak itself should have a drawback built in, same like abilities like streak or mist form have.

While bugs do occur in the game, this has been a reliable solution. I know because I have used it when playing solo and our group has at least one person with a hard counter slotted. And yes, there are hard counters to sneak and stealth in the game.

As far as an NB being able to counter being pulled out of stealth, well, an experienced NB will not be a one-button wonder. Just like any other skilled and experienced, they will utilize the tools they have available. It is what makes much of the difference between an experienced player and one that is less experienced.

It wasn't and still isn't a reliable solution unless by reliable You mean capable to work fine against unexperienced solo wondering players relying too heavily on cloak alone, panicking if cloak fails even once. Bugs have nothing to do with these solutions being unreliable in their core. There really isn't a true hard counter to the invisibility part of the nightblade's stealth playstyle.

Of course, the counter to cloak is more effective against the less experienced NB as the more experienced one utilizes more tools than just a cloak. So I fail to see the point in bringing that up. But the fact remains there are both hard and soft counters to cloak. The hard ones do in fact put a debuff on the NB (or any player sneaking) that prevents them from entering stealth for a few seconds, enough to do some real damage and then refresh the counter. It works and works very well against NBs that rely on cloak. I know they are reliable in their core because I use them.

Against less skilled nightblades You don't even need specific cloak counters [snip] There is lot of nightblade players performing poorly in PvP. This is propably one of the reasons they choose stealth based class in the first place. This is also why so many nightblades defends cloak and says there are reliable counters. This is why it's worth to bring this up.

Against every nightblade who is either range playstyle or have some level of experience things You call as hard counters very often don't even work as soft counters. These abilites take bar space, cost lot of resources to cast, cover pretty small area and as You've mentioned last only for few seconds. Any nightblade who knows what he is doing will easily counter that just by using his mobility (which he right now is one of the best classes at), dodging (which he right now have tool to lower cost of it) and healing (he recived one of the best spammable selfheals). It's also worth to mention how wonky reveal itself works but that's more of a technical issue.

As I've mentioned for solo play it works only against extremly unskilled nightblades [snip] but that doesn't change a fact playstyle itself is busted when played properly. You mentioned You are often outnumbering these nightblades to defeat them which is completly different story.

These counters in their core nature are not reliable and they are definietly not a hard counters. If they would, devs wouldn't constantly try to buff them and we wouldn't have the same conversation for almost 10 years now. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

SaffronCitrusflower

Lumsdenml wrote: »

Devonax wrote: »

It will be a fight or flight choice instead of using cloak as a battle move..
It's not like Nb are low in damage.. they can kill a person in 3 sec if they are set up right.. so adding on a cloak to be used constantly in battle is OP and not necessary..

Or pull the other more pvp related skills up the the level of cloak..
Sorcerer's streak will not only do damage and stun but leave a debuff on any target so they cannot cloak for 5 sec.
The Templar's Jezus beam prevents NB from cloaking as long as the beam is on them..
The Shield stomp of the DK will uncloak any NB in a 10 meter proximity and stun them for 3 seconds when they are pulled out of stealth. etc.

True, NB are not low on damage, but they are low in survivability. Cloak is not an offensive skill, it is defensive, so why is it being compared to offensive skills to "other more pvp related skills up the the level of cloak"?

NB's are NOT low on survivability. They have the strongest burst heal in the game. And when that's not enough, they just turn invisible and run away even if they are still in combat and initiated the encounter. NB's have one of the most complete, if not the most complete tool kit to work with in the game. Yet they still complain when people ask for some balance and point out they shouldn't have to be fighting the invisible man all the time.

Rowjoh

Using Cloak successfully in the face of half decent players who know the many ways to counter it, is a real test of skill.

Factor in the ridiculous 43 metres reveal distance of detect potions, and only the new, inexperienced and seriously misinformed players can fail to understand how easy it is to deal with cloaking players now.

Weckless

We've had enough changes to balance the game with the casual and unskilled player in mind. It's time to break that bad habit and shut down changes like these and balance the game with healthy competitive play in mind. [snip]

* I still don't care if they put a ramping cost on it but these other ideas are just silly*

[edited for baiting]

Lumenn

Weckless wrote: »

We've had enough changes to balance the game with the casual and unskilled player in mind. It's time to break that bad habit and shut down changes like these and balance the game with healthy competitive play in mind. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

HEAR HEAR! I agree 100%! So bring back prenerf WINGS! Another skill that fell victim to those filthy "unskilled and casual" players outcry as being too OP, especially against a certain class. While we're at it non crit shields with original timers, and remove ramping cost on streak! It's WAR, there is no whining in WAR! And those FILTHY, NASTY "UNSKILLED AND CASUAL" players can just SUFFER muwahahahaha!

Galeriano

What is truly funny is that ZoS refuses to acknowledge the fact that cloak is completly incorrectly designed in its core and they preffer to throw multiple "counters" to the game that they hope will solve the issue when in reality it always fail because at this point there is simply too many issues with different variants of stealth playstyle in ESO.

Best example is the recent change to detect potions aimed at nightblade archers which really changed nothing because earlier ZoS provided nightblade with so many survival and mobility tools that nightblades archers could deal even with 100 meters detection range.

RedFireDisco

Yes, but only if we do the same to shields. Make them last 3 seconds like cloak and increase the cost and also give us a potion that removes the opponent's shield.

See how ridiculous that sounds

schoober

As a main nb I get why you are so mad with the class. I get pissed as well with the gankers that can cloak over and over. But a decent pvper can kill them very easily since they have extremely low HP and armor. It's the only way to sustain cloak spamming.
And I'm telling you this because my NB has 3k crit res and 33k Physical/Spell resist (fully buffed) and if I spam cloak too many times then I won't have enough magicka to heal and buff myself. Then I'm dead.
If you're having trouble with gankers just slot some detection pots, inner's light, learn to be quicker, you know.. get good.
But don't ask to ruin a class identity.
By the way, the magicka cost is not cheap, it's 4K, the reason why only squishy builds can cast it so many times.