It's time to uphold NB Cloak to the same standards!

Weckless

Lumenn wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

We've had enough changes to balance the game with the casual and unskilled player in mind. It's time to break that bad habit and shut down changes like these and balance the game with healthy competitive play in mind. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

HEAR HEAR! I agree 100%! So bring back prenerf WINGS! Another skill that fell victim to those filthy "unskilled and casual" players outcry as being too OP, especially against a certain class. While we're at it non crit shields with original timers, and remove ramping cost on streak! It's WAR, there is no whining in WAR! And those FILTHY, NASTY "UNSKILLED AND CASUAL" players can just SUFFER muwahahahaha!

[snip] Second of all theres a difference in changing the the functionality of a skill vs tweaking a skills cost lol.cloak does not shut down entire playstyles and make some classes completely useless and at their mercy like wings used to so the comparison is laughable and bad faith. Ive been fair and honest this whole thread and even said I wasnt opposed to the ramping cost but stuff like making it not work in combat? Seriously? I stand by what I said about these kind of suggestions and the players who are making them.

[Edited for Abusive Language]

Lumenn

Weckless wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

We've had enough changes to balance the game with the casual and unskilled player in mind. It's time to break that bad habit and shut down changes like these and balance the game with healthy competitive play in mind. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

HEAR HEAR! I agree 100%! So bring back prenerf WINGS! Another skill that fell victim to those filthy "unskilled and casual" players outcry as being too OP, especially against a certain class. While we're at it non crit shields with original timers, and remove ramping cost on streak! It's WAR, there is no whining in WAR! And those FILTHY, NASTY "UNSKILLED AND CASUAL" players can just SUFFER muwahahahaha!

[snip] Second of all theres a difference in changing the the functionality of a skill vs tweaking a skills cost lol.cloak does not shut down entire playstyles and make some classes completely useless and at their mercy like wings used to so the comparison is laughable and bad faith. Ive been fair and honest this whole thread and even said I wasnt opposed to the ramping cost but stuff like making it not work in combat? Seriously? I stand by what I said about these kind of suggestions and the players who are making them.

[Edited for Abusive Language]

No BROTHER! you were TOTALLY right! Catering to the "UNSKILLED and CASUAL" has RUINED the war! Let us reflect meteor again! Leap into keeps! Let oblivion dmg cut through the masses! The "UNSKILLED and CASUAL" will weep and tremble in fear! Nightblades must adapt! Defenders must contend with armies of DK scaling the walls! Sorcs will once again rule the land! get GUD or get DEAD! rrRRAAAAAAAAAHHH!

On a calmer note, in my opinion MOST nerfs throughout the years due to the outcry of the masses have been wrong. A difference of opinion doesn't mean "unskilled and casual" though. At the time of the wing nerf, many dk mains could say nb were "unskilled and casual" as there WERE workarounds, yet zos catered to them.

Cloak makes EVERYONE use extra resources and/or items to counter it, and has been said here a good nb will counter the counter. Old wings made nb use different skills but no extra cost on items or extra resources, yet still got whined into a nerf. Comparisons not in bad faith. Alas that argument is old and lost, along with many other changes.

I don't want cloak nerfed any more than the few nerfs I've mentioned earlier. But I also see it as the same arguments that came out with the wing nerf, yet somehow NOW when it's flipped they're valid when they weren't then? How odd....

Personally, I feel like ALL nerfs need to stop before pvp is more watered down than it is. We've lost too much as it is. Unfortunately half of pvp is on the forums.

[Edited for Quote]

Galeriano

RedFireDisco wrote: »

Yes, but only if we do the same to shields. Make them last 3 seconds like cloak and increase the cost and also give us a potion that removes the opponent's shield.

See how ridiculous that sounds

If cloak would recive as many nerfs as shields did, nightblade population would be almost extinct at that point. And if You want to bring shields to cloak standards than You also will want to give every shield user a instant cast, non pet, strong and cheap burst heal plus high base mobility combined with decent damage avoidance. You will then also need to introduce abilities and buffs to help shields users to easily deal with that shield countering potion same as nightblades can deal with detect potions and give shield users more base survivability to bring them up to nightblade standards.

The only ridicolous thing was bringing shields to make a point. Also the class most known and critiqued for using shields was always sorc which have an ability with a drawback in the form of streak so one can say in a twisted way You kinda prove with Your argument that nightblade also need an ability with a drawback.

HidesInPlainSight

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

Devonax wrote: »

It will be a fight or flight choice instead of using cloak as a battle move..
It's not like Nb are low in damage.. they can kill a person in 3 sec if they are set up right.. so adding on a cloak to be used constantly in battle is OP and not necessary..

Or pull the other more pvp related skills up the the level of cloak..
Sorcerer's streak will not only do damage and stun but leave a debuff on any target so they cannot cloak for 5 sec.
The Templar's Jezus beam prevents NB from cloaking as long as the beam is on them..
The Shield stomp of the DK will uncloak any NB in a 10 meter proximity and stun them for 3 seconds when they are pulled out of stealth. etc.

True, NB are not low on damage, but they are low in survivability. Cloak is not an offensive skill, it is defensive, so why is it being compared to offensive skills to "other more pvp related skills up the the level of cloak"?

NB's are NOT low on survivability. They have the strongest burst heal in the game. And when that's not enough, they just turn invisible and run away even if they are still in combat and initiated the encounter. NB's have one of the most complete, if not the most complete tool kit to work with in the game. Yet they still complain when people ask for some balance and point out they shouldn't have to be fighting the invisible man all the time.

For real, between Rally, Cloak, Leeching, Healing Offering, Vigor. I go from sub 500hp to full health faster then any other class besides DK.

The probl

Lumenn wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

We've had enough changes to balance the game with the casual and unskilled player in mind. It's time to break that bad habit and shut down changes like these and balance the game with healthy competitive play in mind. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

HEAR HEAR! I agree 100%! So bring back prenerf WINGS! Another skill that fell victim to those filthy "unskilled and casual" players outcry as being too OP, especially against a certain class. While we're at it non crit shields with original timers, and remove ramping cost on streak! It's WAR, there is no whining in WAR! And those FILTHY, NASTY "UNSKILLED AND CASUAL" players can just SUFFER muwahahahaha!

[snip] Second of all theres a difference in changing the the functionality of a skill vs tweaking a skills cost lol.cloak does not shut down entire playstyles and make some classes completely useless and at their mercy like wings used to so the comparison is laughable and bad faith. Ive been fair and honest this whole thread and even said I wasnt opposed to the ramping cost but stuff like making it not work in combat? Seriously? I stand by what I said about these kind of suggestions and the players who are making them.

[Edited for Abusive Language]

No BROTHER! you were TOTALLY right! Catering to the "UNSKILLED and CASUAL" has RUINED the war! Let us reflect meteor again! Leap into keeps! Let oblivion dmg cut through the masses! The "UNSKILLED and CASUAL" will weep and tremble in fear! Nightblades must adapt! Defenders must contend with armies of DK scaling the walls! Sorcs will once again rule the land! get GUD or get DEAD! rrRRAAAAAAAAAHHH!

On a calmer note, in my opinion MOST nerfs throughout the years due to the outcry of the masses have been wrong. A difference of opinion doesn't mean "unskilled and casual" though. At the time of the wing nerf, many dk mains could say nb were "unskilled and casual" as there WERE workarounds, yet zos catered to them.

Cloak makes EVERYONE use extra resources and/or items to counter it, and has been said here a good nb will counter the counter. Old wings made nb use different skills but no extra cost on items or extra resources, yet still got whined into a nerf. Comparisons not in bad faith. Alas that argument is old and lost, along with many other changes.

I don't want cloak nerfed any more than the few nerfs I've mentioned earlier. But I also see it as the same arguments that came out with the wing nerf, yet somehow NOW when it's flipped they're valid when they weren't then? How odd....

Personally, I feel like ALL nerfs need to stop before pvp is more watered down than it is. We've lost too much as it is. Unfortunately half of pvp is on the forums.

[Edited for Quote]

Old wings were op, if they were in the game now. DK might actually get a nerf. At the time DK got its wings clipped, they were not the op class they are today, and it was met with considerable backlash.

Other classes need to be buffed into the levels of DK and NB for pvp.

Once more of the playerbase gets more time on the Arcanist, they are going to finally come to the conclusion, that the class is hot garbage in PvP. Masters DW / Vateshran is carrying the class, and even then that combo performs better on other classes.

NB is the hardest class for an Arcanist to deal with, because they can negate the entire kit of the Arcanist by cloaking. Drop a beam on a NB, they cloak and reposition, Now you have to rebuild your Crux's. NB base kit sustain, heals, and damage, is 10x as strong as Arcanist base kit in pvp. Arcanist starts every fight at a time and resource disadvantage in against every class, against a NB, they start several fights all at a time and resource disadvantage. Only time a Arcanist will win a fight against NB, is when the NB over commits and tries to go toe to toe with an Arcanist.

The Arcanist class needs so much work to be viable in the top levels of PvP, the devs know it, and the top PvPers know it.

[Edited for Quote]

Amottica

Galeriano wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Although ramping cost doesn't sound right from balance perspective, some form of drawback should be introduced to cloak.

It could for example block the ability to enter stealth with crouch afterwards for a certain period of time or it could extend duration of dodge roll fatigue or just add stacks to it. It could also go with the different approach and drastically lower healing recived while in cloak, something that some of the other games are doing.

This solution is already in the game. There are hard counters that prevent the immediate return to cloak or sneak. All we have to do is choose to use it. We often have someone who is running a hard counter.

If this would be reliable solution the same debate about cloak wouldn't go for almost 10 years.

Problem with solutions You are talking about is that they are often unreliable and they are not on the user's side forcing attackers to make sacrifices when cloak user makes none. Nightblade can even counter these solutions, often pretty easily, still without the need to slot any additional skills over what he would be normally using. They are not hard counters and in all honestly they shouldn't be. Stealth playstyle deserves to have a place in the game but cloak itself should have a drawback built in, same like abilities like streak or mist form have.

While bugs do occur in the game, this has been a reliable solution. I know because I have used it when playing solo and our group has at least one person with a hard counter slotted. And yes, there are hard counters to sneak and stealth in the game.

As far as an NB being able to counter being pulled out of stealth, well, an experienced NB will not be a one-button wonder. Just like any other skilled and experienced, they will utilize the tools they have available. It is what makes much of the difference between an experienced player and one that is less experienced.

It wasn't and still isn't a reliable solution unless by reliable You mean capable to work fine against unexperienced solo wondering players relying too heavily on cloak alone, panicking if cloak fails even once. Bugs have nothing to do with these solutions being unreliable in their core. There really isn't a true hard counter to the invisibility part of the nightblade's stealth playstyle.

Of course, the counter to cloak is more effective against the less experienced NB as the more experienced one utilizes more tools than just a cloak. So I fail to see the point in bringing that up. But the fact remains there are both hard and soft counters to cloak. The hard ones do in fact put a debuff on the NB (or any player sneaking) that prevents them from entering stealth for a few seconds, enough to do some real damage and then refresh the counter. It works and works very well against NBs that rely on cloak. I know they are reliable in their core because I use them.

Against less skilled nightblades You don't even need specific cloak counters [snip] There is lot of nightblade players performing poorly in PvP. This is propably one of the reasons they choose stealth based class in the first place. This is also why so many nightblades defends cloak and says there are reliable counters. This is why it's worth to bring this up.

Against every nightblade who is either range playstyle or have some level of experience things You call as hard counters very often don't even work as soft counters. These abilites take bar space, cost lot of resources to cast, cover pretty small area and as You've mentioned last only for few seconds. Any nightblade who knows what he is doing will easily counter that just by using his mobility (which he right now is one of the best classes at), dodging (which he right now have tool to lower cost of it) and healing (he recived one of the best spammable selfheals). It's also worth to mention how wonky reveal itself works but that's more of a technical issue.

As I've mentioned for solo play it works only against extremly unskilled nightblades [snip] but that doesn't change a fact playstyle itself is busted when played properly. You mentioned You are often outnumbering these nightblades to defeat them which is completly different story.

These counters in their core nature are not reliable and they are definietly not a hard counters. If they would, devs wouldn't constantly try to buff them and we wouldn't have the same conversation for almost 10 years now. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Sorry. I cannot speak to how to counter cloak with a NB that is at a distance (ranged) since I cannot recall having problems with a ranged player. I just LOS them. They have to come to me.

As far as when I mentioned being with my group, yes that is outnumbering a NB if that is the only target we are dealing with. I also go solo and always have a hard counter on my bar so my experience is extremely on point from an experienced player perspective.

So again, these counters are, at their core, very effective the ones that are hard counters are in fact reliable hard counters. I will attest that when I first started using them I floundered. Experience paid off just like it does with pretty much anything PvP.

RedFireDisco

Galeriano wrote: »

RedFireDisco wrote: »

Yes, but only if we do the same to shields. Make them last 3 seconds like cloak and increase the cost and also give us a potion that removes the opponent's shield.

See how ridiculous that sounds

If cloak would recive as many nerfs as shields did, nightblade population would be almost extinct at that point. And if You want to bring shields to cloak standards than You also will want to give every shield user a instant cast, non pet, strong and cheap burst heal plus high base mobility combined with decent damage avoidance. You will then also need to introduce abilities and buffs to help shields users to easily deal with that shield countering potion same as nightblades can deal with detect potions and give shield users more base survivability to bring them up to nightblade standards.

The only ridicolous thing was bringing shields to make a point. Also the class most known and critiqued for using shields was always sorc which have an ability with a drawback in the form of streak so one can say in a twisted way You kinda prove with Your argument that nightblade also need an ability with a drawback.

But cloaks has received more nerfs than shields from day one, so far it's 8 nerfs for anyone counting vs 4 for shields, so, that's 100% more

Tyrant_Tim

Lumenn wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

We've had enough changes to balance the game with the casual and unskilled player in mind. It's time to break that bad habit and shut down changes like these and balance the game with healthy competitive play in mind. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

HEAR HEAR! I agree 100%! So bring back prenerf WINGS! Another skill that fell victim to those filthy "unskilled and casual" players outcry as being too OP, especially against a certain class. While we're at it non crit shields with original timers, and remove ramping cost on streak! It's WAR, there is no whining in WAR! And those FILTHY, NASTY "UNSKILLED AND CASUAL" players can just SUFFER muwahahahaha!

While we’re at it, let’s make Burning Light hit for more than 1.5k, Breath of Life heal 3 targets the same value, Blazing Shield not mitigate twice by battle spirit, Repentance work with Engine Guardian again while also giving the whole group stamina, Total Dark deflect ranged attacks and provide adequate burst again; and either morph of Shards disorient players again. Maybe bring back Blinding Flashes too.

People cry about Nightblade nerfs, Templar is the most nerfed class in ESO history and people still play them at a high level.

Embrace change, and adapt.

Edit: Sorry, I forgot about Ritual of Retribution and Extended Ritual, both dealing damage and healing, and pulling Nightblades out of stealth, let’s bring that back first.

Weckless

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

We've had enough changes to balance the game with the casual and unskilled player in mind. It's time to break that bad habit and shut down changes like these and balance the game with healthy competitive play in mind. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

HEAR HEAR! I agree 100%! So bring back prenerf WINGS! Another skill that fell victim to those filthy "unskilled and casual" players outcry as being too OP, especially against a certain class. While we're at it non crit shields with original timers, and remove ramping cost on streak! It's WAR, there is no whining in WAR! And those FILTHY, NASTY "UNSKILLED AND CASUAL" players can just SUFFER muwahahahaha!

While we’re at it, let’s make Burning Light hit for more than 1.5k, Breath of Life heal 3 targets the same value, Blazing Shield not mitigate twice by battle spirit, Repentance work with Engine Guardian again while also giving the whole group stamina, Total Dark deflect ranged attacks and provide adequate burst again; and either morph of Shards disorient players again. Maybe bring back Blinding Flashes too.

People cry about Nightblade nerfs, Templar is the most nerfed class in ESO history and people still play them at a high level.

Embrace change, and adapt.

Edit: Sorry, I forgot about Ritual of Retribution and Extended Ritual, both dealing damage and healing, and pulling Nightblades out of stealth, let’s bring that back first.

As long as they don't give ritual it's snare idc how much they buff templar. Im not against other classes getting good things but I am against bad changes

And corrosive. Def against corrosive

Lumenn

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

We've had enough changes to balance the game with the casual and unskilled player in mind. It's time to break that bad habit and shut down changes like these and balance the game with healthy competitive play in mind. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

HEAR HEAR! I agree 100%! So bring back prenerf WINGS! Another skill that fell victim to those filthy "unskilled and casual" players outcry as being too OP, especially against a certain class. While we're at it non crit shields with original timers, and remove ramping cost on streak! It's WAR, there is no whining in WAR! And those FILTHY, NASTY "UNSKILLED AND CASUAL" players can just SUFFER muwahahahaha!

While we’re at it, let’s make Burning Light hit for more than 1.5k, Breath of Life heal 3 targets the same value, Blazing Shield not mitigate twice by battle spirit, Repentance work with Engine Guardian again while also giving the whole group stamina, Total Dark deflect ranged attacks and provide adequate burst again; and either morph of Shards disorient players again. Maybe bring back Blinding Flashes too.

People cry about Nightblade nerfs, Templar is the most nerfed class in ESO history and people still play them at a high level.

Embrace change, and adapt.

Edit: Sorry, I forgot about Ritual of Retribution and Extended Ritual, both dealing damage and healing, and pulling Nightblades out of stealth, let’s bring that back first.

Ah, now you're speaking straight to my heart! My main has been a stam sorc (that I made from pure stubbornness as I was told it's the worst for solo play and to go Magicka over 7 years ago), but I've a soft spot for my templar that has him at ALMOST as many hours played. I weep at the shadow he's become.

HidesInPlainSight

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

We've had enough changes to balance the game with the casual and unskilled player in mind. It's time to break that bad habit and shut down changes like these and balance the game with healthy competitive play in mind. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

HEAR HEAR! I agree 100%! So bring back prenerf WINGS! Another skill that fell victim to those filthy "unskilled and casual" players outcry as being too OP, especially against a certain class. While we're at it non crit shields with original timers, and remove ramping cost on streak! It's WAR, there is no whining in WAR! And those FILTHY, NASTY "UNSKILLED AND CASUAL" players can just SUFFER muwahahahaha!

While we’re at it, let’s make Burning Light hit for more than 1.5k, Breath of Life heal 3 targets the same value, Blazing Shield not mitigate twice by battle spirit, Repentance work with Engine Guardian again while also giving the whole group stamina, Total Dark deflect ranged attacks and provide adequate burst again; and either morph of Shards disorient players again. Maybe bring back Blinding Flashes too.

People cry about Nightblade nerfs, Templar is the most nerfed class in ESO history and people still play them at a high level.

Embrace change, and adapt.

Edit: Sorry, I forgot about Ritual of Retribution and Extended Ritual, both dealing damage and healing, and pulling Nightblades out of stealth, let’s bring that back first.

ill tell you what? ill give you a burning light buff, if we get a jesus beam rework, that stops its from going through buildings and does not get the execute damage if applied before the target goes into execute range.

Im tired of 3 templars putting jesus beams on me, then another dropping an ult,then jesus beaming themselves to insta die, all done from stealth.

Galeriano

RedFireDisco wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

RedFireDisco wrote: »

Yes, but only if we do the same to shields. Make them last 3 seconds like cloak and increase the cost and also give us a potion that removes the opponent's shield.

See how ridiculous that sounds

If cloak would recive as many nerfs as shields did, nightblade population would be almost extinct at that point. And if You want to bring shields to cloak standards than You also will want to give every shield user a instant cast, non pet, strong and cheap burst heal plus high base mobility combined with decent damage avoidance. You will then also need to introduce abilities and buffs to help shields users to easily deal with that shield countering potion same as nightblades can deal with detect potions and give shield users more base survivability to bring them up to nightblade standards.

The only ridicolous thing was bringing shields to make a point. Also the class most known and critiqued for using shields was always sorc which have an ability with a drawback in the form of streak so one can say in a twisted way You kinda prove with Your argument that nightblade also need an ability with a drawback.

But cloaks has received more nerfs than shields from day one, so far it's 8 nerfs for anyone counting vs 4 for shields, so, that's 100% more

It didn't. I would really like to know what changes to cloak You consider when talking about these 8 nerfs because I suspect it will be a fun lecture to read with mostly some minor tweaks being mentioned as nerfs. What is worth to take under consideration is magnitude of the nerf. No cloak nerf can come close to shields for example going down from 20 seconds to 6 seconds. It changed one of the core aspects of how shields are being used. If You want to play in math games that's a 70% duration nerf, so if You want to make one on one comparisions imagine if that would happen to a cloak and it would end up lasting 0,9 sec. Taking away crit immunity from shields was also a massive change that forced sorcs to completly change their setups and fact that shields now have users resistances do not compensate for that at all.

There was nothing like that happening to cloak. The only thing I can think of was changing 5 DoTs removal to just DoTs not kicking nb out of cloak but tbh with today's standards and how many DoTs You can have applied on You sometimes that is actually a buff since there are setups that can consistantly keep 6+ DoTs on You. Cloak also recived decent buffs some basically gamechanging ones like for example fact that AoE DoTs no longer reveal cloaked nb.

And while nightblade especially lately was reciving hefty buffs to all the other aspects of the defense, shields users especially magsorcs were getting close to nothing. Only lately ZoS decided to slightly buff magsorcs shield value which have almost zero impact on overall performance of the class when things like new versions of healthy offering, shadow image, concealed weapon, blur etc drastically improved nightblade's defense even without cloak. There is even new mist form that some nightblades incorporated to their kits with a success. Imagine if sorc would get shields changed to cloak-like instant cast ability and on top of that recived non pet instant cast burst heal, easy acces to both major and minor expedition, major evasion combined with dodge cost reduction and snare+immobilize removal+imminity and something resembling shadow image. Forums would go wild.

Galeriano

Amottica wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Although ramping cost doesn't sound right from balance perspective, some form of drawback should be introduced to cloak.

It could for example block the ability to enter stealth with crouch afterwards for a certain period of time or it could extend duration of dodge roll fatigue or just add stacks to it. It could also go with the different approach and drastically lower healing recived while in cloak, something that some of the other games are doing.

This solution is already in the game. There are hard counters that prevent the immediate return to cloak or sneak. All we have to do is choose to use it. We often have someone who is running a hard counter.

If this would be reliable solution the same debate about cloak wouldn't go for almost 10 years.

Problem with solutions You are talking about is that they are often unreliable and they are not on the user's side forcing attackers to make sacrifices when cloak user makes none. Nightblade can even counter these solutions, often pretty easily, still without the need to slot any additional skills over what he would be normally using. They are not hard counters and in all honestly they shouldn't be. Stealth playstyle deserves to have a place in the game but cloak itself should have a drawback built in, same like abilities like streak or mist form have.

While bugs do occur in the game, this has been a reliable solution. I know because I have used it when playing solo and our group has at least one person with a hard counter slotted. And yes, there are hard counters to sneak and stealth in the game.

As far as an NB being able to counter being pulled out of stealth, well, an experienced NB will not be a one-button wonder. Just like any other skilled and experienced, they will utilize the tools they have available. It is what makes much of the difference between an experienced player and one that is less experienced.

It wasn't and still isn't a reliable solution unless by reliable You mean capable to work fine against unexperienced solo wondering players relying too heavily on cloak alone, panicking if cloak fails even once. Bugs have nothing to do with these solutions being unreliable in their core. There really isn't a true hard counter to the invisibility part of the nightblade's stealth playstyle.

Of course, the counter to cloak is more effective against the less experienced NB as the more experienced one utilizes more tools than just a cloak. So I fail to see the point in bringing that up. But the fact remains there are both hard and soft counters to cloak. The hard ones do in fact put a debuff on the NB (or any player sneaking) that prevents them from entering stealth for a few seconds, enough to do some real damage and then refresh the counter. It works and works very well against NBs that rely on cloak. I know they are reliable in their core because I use them.

Against less skilled nightblades You don't even need specific cloak counters [snip] There is lot of nightblade players performing poorly in PvP. This is propably one of the reasons they choose stealth based class in the first place. This is also why so many nightblades defends cloak and says there are reliable counters. This is why it's worth to bring this up.

Against every nightblade who is either range playstyle or have some level of experience things You call as hard counters very often don't even work as soft counters. These abilites take bar space, cost lot of resources to cast, cover pretty small area and as You've mentioned last only for few seconds. Any nightblade who knows what he is doing will easily counter that just by using his mobility (which he right now is one of the best classes at), dodging (which he right now have tool to lower cost of it) and healing (he recived one of the best spammable selfheals). It's also worth to mention how wonky reveal itself works but that's more of a technical issue.

As I've mentioned for solo play it works only against extremly unskilled nightblades [snip] but that doesn't change a fact playstyle itself is busted when played properly. You mentioned You are often outnumbering these nightblades to defeat them which is completly different story.

These counters in their core nature are not reliable and they are definietly not a hard counters. If they would, devs wouldn't constantly try to buff them and we wouldn't have the same conversation for almost 10 years now. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Sorry. I cannot speak to how to counter cloak with a NB that is at a distance (ranged) since I cannot recall having problems with a ranged player. I just LOS them. They have to come to me.

As far as when I mentioned being with my group, yes that is outnumbering a NB if that is the only target we are dealing with. I also go solo and always have a hard counter on my bar so my experience is extremely on point from an experienced player perspective.

So again, these counters are, at their core, very effective the ones that are hard counters are in fact reliable hard counters. I will attest that when I first started using them I floundered. Experience paid off just like it does with pretty much anything PvP.

Cool story but sadly it have little to do with reality. You cherrypick situations that suits You agenda and ignore multiple situations that don't. If Your solution to fight single nightblade, is hugging to obstacle counting that player behind the keyboard will be naive enough to enter meele brawl with You than I must tell You that You admitted that ranged nightblade is busted. As I've said already running with group or facing some ganker one on one is not the whole picture.

No there is currently zero reliable and effective counters to cloak against any properly build nightblade who more or less knows what to do. I know because I laugh at people using these "counters" when i play on nightblade. More often than not I can easily survive and if I will die it is only due to me making some ridicolous mistake. Fact that there is plenty of nightblades who rely on cloak too much and play very poorly won't change the reality of cloak counters being very weak.

As I've said multiple times if these counters would be reliable ZoS wouldn't have to continously buff them and we wouldn't have the same debate about cloak consistantly for 10 years already. it's just a fact, You really can't disprove that.

Meurto

Looks like the person leading the crusade for the destruction of cloak has found their way to this thread with the usual empty rhetoric. Best thing to do is just ignore them and move on as any counter point you make will simply be dismissed. There are plenty of working counters (most recently the increased range on detect pots) and if you find yourself struggling it is highly likely a learn to play issue.

Amottica

Galeriano wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Although ramping cost doesn't sound right from balance perspective, some form of drawback should be introduced to cloak.

It could for example block the ability to enter stealth with crouch afterwards for a certain period of time or it could extend duration of dodge roll fatigue or just add stacks to it. It could also go with the different approach and drastically lower healing recived while in cloak, something that some of the other games are doing.

This solution is already in the game. There are hard counters that prevent the immediate return to cloak or sneak. All we have to do is choose to use it. We often have someone who is running a hard counter.

If this would be reliable solution the same debate about cloak wouldn't go for almost 10 years.

Problem with solutions You are talking about is that they are often unreliable and they are not on the user's side forcing attackers to make sacrifices when cloak user makes none. Nightblade can even counter these solutions, often pretty easily, still without the need to slot any additional skills over what he would be normally using. They are not hard counters and in all honestly they shouldn't be. Stealth playstyle deserves to have a place in the game but cloak itself should have a drawback built in, same like abilities like streak or mist form have.

While bugs do occur in the game, this has been a reliable solution. I know because I have used it when playing solo and our group has at least one person with a hard counter slotted. And yes, there are hard counters to sneak and stealth in the game.

As far as an NB being able to counter being pulled out of stealth, well, an experienced NB will not be a one-button wonder. Just like any other skilled and experienced, they will utilize the tools they have available. It is what makes much of the difference between an experienced player and one that is less experienced.

It wasn't and still isn't a reliable solution unless by reliable You mean capable to work fine against unexperienced solo wondering players relying too heavily on cloak alone, panicking if cloak fails even once. Bugs have nothing to do with these solutions being unreliable in their core. There really isn't a true hard counter to the invisibility part of the nightblade's stealth playstyle.

Of course, the counter to cloak is more effective against the less experienced NB as the more experienced one utilizes more tools than just a cloak. So I fail to see the point in bringing that up. But the fact remains there are both hard and soft counters to cloak. The hard ones do in fact put a debuff on the NB (or any player sneaking) that prevents them from entering stealth for a few seconds, enough to do some real damage and then refresh the counter. It works and works very well against NBs that rely on cloak. I know they are reliable in their core because I use them.

Against less skilled nightblades You don't even need specific cloak counters [snip] There is lot of nightblade players performing poorly in PvP. This is propably one of the reasons they choose stealth based class in the first place. This is also why so many nightblades defends cloak and says there are reliable counters. This is why it's worth to bring this up.

Against every nightblade who is either range playstyle or have some level of experience things You call as hard counters very often don't even work as soft counters. These abilites take bar space, cost lot of resources to cast, cover pretty small area and as You've mentioned last only for few seconds. Any nightblade who knows what he is doing will easily counter that just by using his mobility (which he right now is one of the best classes at), dodging (which he right now have tool to lower cost of it) and healing (he recived one of the best spammable selfheals). It's also worth to mention how wonky reveal itself works but that's more of a technical issue.

As I've mentioned for solo play it works only against extremly unskilled nightblades [snip] but that doesn't change a fact playstyle itself is busted when played properly. You mentioned You are often outnumbering these nightblades to defeat them which is completly different story.

These counters in their core nature are not reliable and they are definietly not a hard counters. If they would, devs wouldn't constantly try to buff them and we wouldn't have the same conversation for almost 10 years now. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Sorry. I cannot speak to how to counter cloak with a NB that is at a distance (ranged) since I cannot recall having problems with a ranged player. I just LOS them. They have to come to me.

As far as when I mentioned being with my group, yes that is outnumbering a NB if that is the only target we are dealing with. I also go solo and always have a hard counter on my bar so my experience is extremely on point from an experienced player perspective.

So again, these counters are, at their core, very effective the ones that are hard counters are in fact reliable hard counters. I will attest that when I first started using them I floundered. Experience paid off just like it does with pretty much anything PvP.

Cool story but sadly it have little to do with reality. You cherrypick situations that suits You agenda and ignore multiple situations that don't. If Your solution to fight single nightblade, is hugging to obstacle counting that player behind the keyboard will be naive enough to enter meele brawl with You than I must tell You that You admitted that ranged nightblade is busted. As I've said already running with group or facing some ganker one on one is not the whole picture.

No there is currently zero reliable and effective counters to cloak against any properly build nightblade who more or less knows what to do. I know because I laugh at people using these "counters" when i play on nightblade. More often than not I can easily survive and if I will die it is only due to me making some ridicolous mistake. Fact that there is plenty of nightblades who rely on cloak too much and play very poorly won't change the reality of cloak counters being very weak.

As I've said multiple times if these counters would be reliable ZoS wouldn't have to continously buff them and we wouldn't have the same debate about cloak consistantly for 10 years already. it's just a fact, You really can't disprove that.

Nope. I brought up a situation to which you had a reply suggesting it was limited to that and then I explained that wsa not the only way I played.

In other words, I have noted multiple ways I play, and in each, I have found the counter work extremely well which means that there is, in fact, reliability in using the counters. 100% guarantee? No, and it requires skill to use them well just like any other aspect of fighting a player that is fighting back.

As for the ranged NB, well, if we let them stay at range then cloak is not an issue. I am not going to stand there and let them pelt me at range until I die. That does not make sense. So yes, I will be smart about it and either LOS, outrange them, or go after them with the idea of killing them but also trying to not die in the process.

We can go back and forth saying the same thing in different ways but that serves no purpose. The reality is Zenimax sees the counters to cloak work as they can see that players who have spent the time figuring out how to go after stealthers are able to effectively utilize the counters. That is all that matters.

So have a good day.

HidesInPlainSight

I don't think increasing the cost to cloak in consecutve cloaks is going to be a solution the players in this thread think it is. Good NB are not spamming cloak, it is weaved or it is used situationally.

What there needs to be is more reliable way to pull a player out of Cloak and servers actually refreshing fast enough that both sides can clearly tell if they are pulled from cloak.

Im tired of being pulled from cloak but my client not updating, while my opponent can clearly see me. The desync makes cloak unreliable in when it actually puts / pulls you in stealth for the opponent.

SandandStars

For what it’s worth, when I use Blinding Flare or Inner Light to pull an NB out of cloak, they immediately recloak at least 80% of the time.

I’m a PvPer for about 2.5 years, and I tend to do quite well. Often win 1st place on winning team in high mmr bgs, etc. (Xbox NA)

I really am confused by the sharp contrast between ppl who say the counters to cloak consistently work well for them and those who say they don’t prevent NBs from immediately recloaking.

I honestly don’t believe it’s a “Learn to Play” issue.

I’m trying to think of other factors that could account for such markedly different experiences using Blinding Flare or Inner Light…

Maybe there are tricks/exploits that are more widely known on different platforms?

HidesInPlainSight

SandandStars wrote: »

For what it’s worth, when I use Blinding Flare or Inner Light to pull an NB out of cloak, they immediately recloak at least 80% of the time.

I’m a PvPer for about 2.5 years, and I tend to do quite well. Often win 1st place on winning team in high mmr bgs, etc. (Xbox NA)

I really am confused by the sharp contrast between ppl who say the counters to cloak consistently work well for them and those who say they don’t prevent NBs from immediately recloaking.

I honestly don’t believe it’s a “Learn to Play” issue.

I’m trying to think of other factors that could account for such markedly different experiences using Blinding Flare or Inner Light…

Maybe there are tricks/exploits that are more widely known on different playforms?

There are several tricks / exploits on both sides of cloaking / revealing cloaked players, from skills and sets. Some have gotten patched, some work every other patch, and most are still working since day 1. Easiest ones to pull a player out of stealth is anything with a delayed time, aoe animation with a direct "damage", gap closers, cc. Blocking casting a gap closer into cc or a reveal skill shuts down most ganks. Its mostly about applying some form of skill / set / trick / exploit to the NB before they cloak again, One set used to pull NBs out of stealth 100% of time when it proc'd, it got patched, and now its active again.

The most inconsistent way is with Inner light / Evil hunter. It tends work better this patch, but there are times where does not work as described. Its still the best direct reveal not using a trick or reveal pot.

Here my NB ganking and counter ganking from today in IC, where I make use of Evil Hunter and detections basically the entire time im in IC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNdtSoADX2I

Weckless

Lumenn wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

We've had enough changes to balance the game with the casual and unskilled player in mind. It's time to break that bad habit and shut down changes like these and balance the game with healthy competitive play in mind. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

HEAR HEAR! I agree 100%! So bring back prenerf WINGS! Another skill that fell victim to those filthy "unskilled and casual" players outcry as being too OP, especially against a certain class. While we're at it non crit shields with original timers, and remove ramping cost on streak! It's WAR, there is no whining in WAR! And those FILTHY, NASTY "UNSKILLED AND CASUAL" players can just SUFFER muwahahahaha!

While we’re at it, let’s make Burning Light hit for more than 1.5k, Breath of Life heal 3 targets the same value, Blazing Shield not mitigate twice by battle spirit, Repentance work with Engine Guardian again while also giving the whole group stamina, Total Dark deflect ranged attacks and provide adequate burst again; and either morph of Shards disorient players again. Maybe bring back Blinding Flashes too.

People cry about Nightblade nerfs, Templar is the most nerfed class in ESO history and people still play them at a high level.

Embrace change, and adapt.

Edit: Sorry, I forgot about Ritual of Retribution and Extended Ritual, both dealing damage and healing, and pulling Nightblades out of stealth, let’s bring that back first.

Ah, now you're speaking straight to my heart! My main has been a stam sorc (that I made from pure stubbornness as I was told it's the worst for solo play and to go Magicka over 7 years ago), but I've a soft spot for my templar that has him at ALMOST as many hours played. I weep at the shadow he's become.

If built right stam sorc can be as good as nightblade

Weckless

Galeriano wrote: »

RedFireDisco wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

RedFireDisco wrote: »

Yes, but only if we do the same to shields. Make them last 3 seconds like cloak and increase the cost and also give us a potion that removes the opponent's shield.

See how ridiculous that sounds

If cloak would recive as many nerfs as shields did, nightblade population would be almost extinct at that point. And if You want to bring shields to cloak standards than You also will want to give every shield user a instant cast, non pet, strong and cheap burst heal plus high base mobility combined with decent damage avoidance. You will then also need to introduce abilities and buffs to help shields users to easily deal with that shield countering potion same as nightblades can deal with detect potions and give shield users more base survivability to bring them up to nightblade standards.

The only ridicolous thing was bringing shields to make a point. Also the class most known and critiqued for using shields was always sorc which have an ability with a drawback in the form of streak so one can say in a twisted way You kinda prove with Your argument that nightblade also need an ability with a drawback.

But cloaks has received more nerfs than shields from day one, so far it's 8 nerfs for anyone counting vs 4 for shields, so, that's 100% more

It didn't. I would really like to know what changes to cloak You consider when talking about these 8 nerfs because I suspect it will be a fun lecture to read with mostly some minor tweaks being mentioned as nerfs. What is worth to take under consideration is magnitude of the nerf. No cloak nerf can come close to shields for example going down from 20 seconds to 6 seconds. It changed one of the core aspects of how shields are being used. If You want to play in math games that's a 70% duration nerf, so if You want to make one on one comparisions imagine if that would happen to a cloak and it would end up lasting 0,9 sec. Taking away crit immunity from shields was also a massive change that forced sorcs to completly change their setups and fact that shields now have users resistances do not compensate for that at all.

There was nothing like that happening to cloak. The only thing I can think of was changing 5 DoTs removal to just DoTs not kicking nb out of cloak but tbh with today's standards and how many DoTs You can have applied on You sometimes that is actually a buff since there are setups that can consistantly keep 6+ DoTs on You. Cloak also recived decent buffs some basically gamechanging ones like for example fact that AoE DoTs no longer reveal cloaked nb.

And while nightblade especially lately was reciving hefty buffs to all the other aspects of the defense, shields users especially magsorcs were getting close to nothing. Only lately ZoS decided to slightly buff magsorcs shield value which have almost zero impact on overall performance of the class when things like new versions of healthy offering, shadow image, concealed weapon, blur etc drastically improved nightblade's defense even without cloak. There is even new mist form that some nightblades incorporated to their kits with a success. Imagine if sorc would get shields changed to cloak-like instant cast ability and on top of that recived non pet instant cast burst heal, easy acces to both major and minor expedition, major evasion combined with dodge cost reduction and snare+immobilize removal+imminity and something resembling shadow image. Forums would go wild.

If they did I wouldnt cry about it because Im not against classes getting nice things. And shields are instant cast? Idk where you're going with that lol

Weckless

Galeriano wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Although ramping cost doesn't sound right from balance perspective, some form of drawback should be introduced to cloak.

It could for example block the ability to enter stealth with crouch afterwards for a certain period of time or it could extend duration of dodge roll fatigue or just add stacks to it. It could also go with the different approach and drastically lower healing recived while in cloak, something that some of the other games are doing.

This solution is already in the game. There are hard counters that prevent the immediate return to cloak or sneak. All we have to do is choose to use it. We often have someone who is running a hard counter.

If this would be reliable solution the same debate about cloak wouldn't go for almost 10 years.

Problem with solutions You are talking about is that they are often unreliable and they are not on the user's side forcing attackers to make sacrifices when cloak user makes none. Nightblade can even counter these solutions, often pretty easily, still without the need to slot any additional skills over what he would be normally using. They are not hard counters and in all honestly they shouldn't be. Stealth playstyle deserves to have a place in the game but cloak itself should have a drawback built in, same like abilities like streak or mist form have.

While bugs do occur in the game, this has been a reliable solution. I know because I have used it when playing solo and our group has at least one person with a hard counter slotted. And yes, there are hard counters to sneak and stealth in the game.

As far as an NB being able to counter being pulled out of stealth, well, an experienced NB will not be a one-button wonder. Just like any other skilled and experienced, they will utilize the tools they have available. It is what makes much of the difference between an experienced player and one that is less experienced.

It wasn't and still isn't a reliable solution unless by reliable You mean capable to work fine against unexperienced solo wondering players relying too heavily on cloak alone, panicking if cloak fails even once. Bugs have nothing to do with these solutions being unreliable in their core. There really isn't a true hard counter to the invisibility part of the nightblade's stealth playstyle.

Of course, the counter to cloak is more effective against the less experienced NB as the more experienced one utilizes more tools than just a cloak. So I fail to see the point in bringing that up. But the fact remains there are both hard and soft counters to cloak. The hard ones do in fact put a debuff on the NB (or any player sneaking) that prevents them from entering stealth for a few seconds, enough to do some real damage and then refresh the counter. It works and works very well against NBs that rely on cloak. I know they are reliable in their core because I use them.

Against less skilled nightblades You don't even need specific cloak counters [snip] There is lot of nightblade players performing poorly in PvP. This is propably one of the reasons they choose stealth based class in the first place. This is also why so many nightblades defends cloak and says there are reliable counters. This is why it's worth to bring this up.

Against every nightblade who is either range playstyle or have some level of experience things You call as hard counters very often don't even work as soft counters. These abilites take bar space, cost lot of resources to cast, cover pretty small area and as You've mentioned last only for few seconds. Any nightblade who knows what he is doing will easily counter that just by using his mobility (which he right now is one of the best classes at), dodging (which he right now have tool to lower cost of it) and healing (he recived one of the best spammable selfheals). It's also worth to mention how wonky reveal itself works but that's more of a technical issue.

As I've mentioned for solo play it works only against extremly unskilled nightblades [snip] but that doesn't change a fact playstyle itself is busted when played properly. You mentioned You are often outnumbering these nightblades to defeat them which is completly different story.

These counters in their core nature are not reliable and they are definietly not a hard counters. If they would, devs wouldn't constantly try to buff them and we wouldn't have the same conversation for almost 10 years now. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Sorry. I cannot speak to how to counter cloak with a NB that is at a distance (ranged) since I cannot recall having problems with a ranged player. I just LOS them. They have to come to me.

As far as when I mentioned being with my group, yes that is outnumbering a NB if that is the only target we are dealing with. I also go solo and always have a hard counter on my bar so my experience is extremely on point from an experienced player perspective.

So again, these counters are, at their core, very effective the ones that are hard counters are in fact reliable hard counters. I will attest that when I first started using them I floundered. Experience paid off just like it does with pretty much anything PvP.

Cool story but sadly it have little to do with reality. You cherrypick situations that suits You agenda and ignore multiple situations that don't. If Your solution to fight single nightblade, is hugging to obstacle counting that player behind the keyboard will be naive enough to enter meele brawl with You than I must tell You that You admitted that ranged nightblade is busted. As I've said already running with group or facing some ganker one on one is not the whole picture.

No there is currently zero reliable and effective counters to cloak against any properly build nightblade who more or less knows what to do. I know because I laugh at people using these "counters" when i play on nightblade. More often than not I can easily survive and if I will die it is only due to me making some ridicolous mistake. Fact that there is plenty of nightblades who rely on cloak too much and play very poorly won't change the reality of cloak counters being very weak.

As I've said multiple times if these counters would be reliable ZoS wouldn't have to continously buff them and we wouldn't have the same debate about cloak consistantly for 10 years already. it's just a fact, You really can't disprove that.

Ranged nightblade is the weakest version of it now. I wish they'd buff it and make it competitive again. #buffswallowsoul

Vulkunne

Just got back from Imperial City. First of all its true what they say in that it is really competitive now lol

Secondly, my NB spent most of its time there getting pulled out of cloak and dying from no burst heal. Buff NB.

RedFireDisco

Galeriano wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Although ramping cost doesn't sound right from balance perspective, some form of drawback should be introduced to cloak.

It could for example block the ability to enter stealth with crouch afterwards for a certain period of time or it could extend duration of dodge roll fatigue or just add stacks to it. It could also go with the different approach and drastically lower healing recived while in cloak, something that some of the other games are doing.

This solution is already in the game. There are hard counters that prevent the immediate return to cloak or sneak. All we have to do is choose to use it. We often have someone who is running a hard counter.

If this would be reliable solution the same debate about cloak wouldn't go for almost 10 years.

Problem with solutions You are talking about is that they are often unreliable and they are not on the user's side forcing attackers to make sacrifices when cloak user makes none. Nightblade can even counter these solutions, often pretty easily, still without the need to slot any additional skills over what he would be normally using. They are not hard counters and in all honestly they shouldn't be. Stealth playstyle deserves to have a place in the game but cloak itself should have a drawback built in, same like abilities like streak or mist form have.

While bugs do occur in the game, this has been a reliable solution. I know because I have used it when playing solo and our group has at least one person with a hard counter slotted. And yes, there are hard counters to sneak and stealth in the game.

As far as an NB being able to counter being pulled out of stealth, well, an experienced NB will not be a one-button wonder. Just like any other skilled and experienced, they will utilize the tools they have available. It is what makes much of the difference between an experienced player and one that is less experienced.

It wasn't and still isn't a reliable solution unless by reliable You mean capable to work fine against unexperienced solo wondering players relying too heavily on cloak alone, panicking if cloak fails even once. Bugs have nothing to do with these solutions being unreliable in their core. There really isn't a true hard counter to the invisibility part of the nightblade's stealth playstyle.

Of course, the counter to cloak is more effective against the less experienced NB as the more experienced one utilizes more tools than just a cloak. So I fail to see the point in bringing that up. But the fact remains there are both hard and soft counters to cloak. The hard ones do in fact put a debuff on the NB (or any player sneaking) that prevents them from entering stealth for a few seconds, enough to do some real damage and then refresh the counter. It works and works very well against NBs that rely on cloak. I know they are reliable in their core because I use them.

Against less skilled nightblades You don't even need specific cloak counters [snip] There is lot of nightblade players performing poorly in PvP. This is propably one of the reasons they choose stealth based class in the first place. This is also why so many nightblades defends cloak and says there are reliable counters. This is why it's worth to bring this up.

Against every nightblade who is either range playstyle or have some level of experience things You call as hard counters very often don't even work as soft counters. These abilites take bar space, cost lot of resources to cast, cover pretty small area and as You've mentioned last only for few seconds. Any nightblade who knows what he is doing will easily counter that just by using his mobility (which he right now is one of the best classes at), dodging (which he right now have tool to lower cost of it) and healing (he recived one of the best spammable selfheals). It's also worth to mention how wonky reveal itself works but that's more of a technical issue.

As I've mentioned for solo play it works only against extremly unskilled nightblades [snip] but that doesn't change a fact playstyle itself is busted when played properly. You mentioned You are often outnumbering these nightblades to defeat them which is completly different story.

These counters in their core nature are not reliable and they are definietly not a hard counters. If they would, devs wouldn't constantly try to buff them and we wouldn't have the same conversation for almost 10 years now. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Sorry. I cannot speak to how to counter cloak with a NB that is at a distance (ranged) since I cannot recall having problems with a ranged player. I just LOS them. They have to come to me.

As far as when I mentioned being with my group, yes that is outnumbering a NB if that is the only target we are dealing with. I also go solo and always have a hard counter on my bar so my experience is extremely on point from an experienced player perspective.

So again, these counters are, at their core, very effective the ones that are hard counters are in fact reliable hard counters. I will attest that when I first started using them I floundered. Experience paid off just like it does with pretty much anything PvP.

Cool story but sadly it have little to do with reality. You cherrypick situations that suits You agenda and ignore multiple situations that don't. If Your solution to fight single nightblade, is hugging to obstacle counting that player behind the keyboard will be naive enough to enter meele brawl with You than I must tell You that You admitted that ranged nightblade is busted. As I've said already running with group or facing some ganker one on one is not the whole picture.

No there is currently zero reliable and effective counters to cloak against any properly build nightblade who more or less knows what to do. I know because I laugh at people using these "counters" when i play on nightblade. More often than not I can easily survive and if I will die it is only due to me making some ridicolous mistake. Fact that there is plenty of nightblades who rely on cloak too much and play very poorly won't change the reality of cloak counters being very weak.

As I've said multiple times if these counters would be reliable ZoS wouldn't have to continously buff them and we wouldn't have the same debate about cloak consistantly for 10 years already. it's just a fact, You really can't disprove that.

Galeriano wrote: »

RedFireDisco wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

RedFireDisco wrote: »

Yes, but only if we do the same to shields. Make them last 3 seconds like cloak and increase the cost and also give us a potion that removes the opponent's shield.

See how ridiculous that sounds

If cloak would recive as many nerfs as shields did, nightblade population would be almost extinct at that point. And if You want to bring shields to cloak standards than You also will want to give every shield user a instant cast, non pet, strong and cheap burst heal plus high base mobility combined with decent damage avoidance. You will then also need to introduce abilities and buffs to help shields users to easily deal with that shield countering potion same as nightblades can deal with detect potions and give shield users more base survivability to bring them up to nightblade standards.

The only ridicolous thing was bringing shields to make a point. Also the class most known and critiqued for using shields was always sorc which have an ability with a drawback in the form of streak so one can say in a twisted way You kinda prove with Your argument that nightblade also need an ability with a drawback.

But cloaks has received more nerfs than shields from day one, so far it's 8 nerfs for anyone counting vs 4 for shields, so, that's 100% more

It didn't. I would really like to know what changes to cloak You consider when talking about these 8 nerfs because I suspect it will be a fun lecture to read with mostly some minor tweaks being mentioned as nerfs. What is worth to take under consideration is magnitude of the nerf. No cloak nerf can come close to shields for example going down from 20 seconds to 6 seconds. It changed one of the core aspects of how shields are being used. If You want to play in math games that's a 70% duration nerf, so if You want to make one on one comparisions imagine if that would happen to a cloak and it would end up lasting 0,9 sec. Taking away crit immunity from shields was also a massive change that forced sorcs to completly change their setups and fact that shields now have users resistances do not compensate for that at all.

There was nothing like that happening to cloak. The only thing I can think of was changing 5 DoTs removal to just DoTs not kicking nb out of cloak but tbh with today's standards and how many DoTs You can have applied on You sometimes that is actually a buff since there are setups that can consistantly keep 6+ DoTs on You. Cloak also recived decent buffs some basically gamechanging ones like for example fact that AoE DoTs no longer reveal cloaked nb.

And while nightblade especially lately was reciving hefty buffs to all the other aspects of the defense, shields users especially magsorcs were getting close to nothing. Only lately ZoS decided to slightly buff magsorcs shield value which have almost zero impact on overall performance of the class when things like new versions of healthy offering, shadow image, concealed weapon, blur etc drastically improved nightblade's defense even without cloak. There is even new mist form that some nightblades incorporated to their kits with a success. Imagine if sorc would get shields changed to cloak-like instant cast ability and on top of that recived non pet instant cast burst heal, easy acces to both major and minor expedition, major evasion combined with dodge cost reduction and snare+immobilize removal+imminity and something resembling shadow image. Forums would go wild.

Shield duration change didn't affect the cost or strength of shields. Any combo ate up a shield and NO ONE in the top bazillion players only casted a shield every 20 seconds. You literally lost NO shield power whatsoever and it affected all mag shield users of all classes running annulment.

I'd put the shield crit nerf in the same category as the dot nerf for cloak.

Sorc got guaranteed concussion status, extra health shield modulation, minor berserk and minor force

That's massive and it's ridiculously disingenuous to state otherwise. Magblade lost minor beserk and it was a big deal

There are NO ranged magblades anymore. That's how much the nerfs have destroyed them. They're gone. You either mag melee or wet noodle someone with swallow soul until they kill you

Every magsorc can use hurricane for EASY minor expedition. Seriously!

& many NBs dropped shadow for elusive because of its cost-on-use application and speed - There's nothing stopping magsorcs doing the same unless you admit that streak is better than shadow image with damage + stun + escape.

GooGa592

SandandStars wrote: »

For what it’s worth, when I use Blinding Flare or Inner Light to pull an NB out of cloak, they immediately recloak at least 80% of the time.

I’m a PvPer for about 2.5 years, and I tend to do quite well. Often win 1st place on winning team in high mmr bgs, etc. (Xbox NA)

I really am confused by the sharp contrast between ppl who say the counters to cloak consistently work well for them and those who say they don’t prevent NBs from immediately recloaking.

I honestly don’t believe it’s a “Learn to Play” issue.

I’m trying to think of other factors that could account for such markedly different experiences using Blinding Flare or Inner Light…

Maybe there are tricks/exploits that are more widely known on different platforms?

This matches my experience so far.

Alharion

Many people here forget that the NB doesn't have a spell giving 5k resistance, or a solid shield like most other classes with a shield or even several, so the NB's stealth is pretty much its only defence, and the NB is a fairly technical class compared to other classes that can do everything with little or no difficulty.

Tyrant_Tim

Alharion wrote: »

Many people here forget that the NB doesn't have a spell giving 5k resistance, or a solid shield like most other classes with a shield or even several, so the NB's stealth is pretty much its only defence, and the NB is a fairly technical class compared to other classes that can do everything with little or no difficulty.

What? You get Major Resolve for free on a Nightblade by using any Shadow abilities, like Concealed Weapon, or Cloak. Nightblade has the easiest access to the most important defense buff in the game, and for free baked into every build with no ability slot sacrifice, something you would think belongs to either DK or Templar.

So then, if you want to double down on your resolve, Nightblade has an ability called Blur that gives Minor Resolve with Major Evasion (20% AoE Mitigation) and free roll dodge reductions, hands down one of the best abilities in the game for defense.

So that’s Minor and Major Resolve, Major Evasion, and 10% Roll Dodge cost reduction every time you take direct damage. Nice.

Adernath

Kisakee wrote: »

You can't counter dodge rolls and Streak ...

ArchMikem wrote: »

You can't counter Streak....

Of course you can, as if there are not enough gap-closers in the game.

By the way, if we are on it, gap-closers also need a ramp-up in costs and their range adjusted to what streak has. Then we are on equal footing

JerBearESO

Sarannah wrote: »

Cloak should not get ramping costs... as cloak is used in PvE as well. Just do not allow re-cloaking when in combat(or only when in combat with another player). That also fixes the try and try and try again to kill someone playstyle. No re-cloaking during combat would add a risk to trying to gank someone from stealth.

Could also apply ramping cost only when in combat

ProudMary

JerBearESO wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Cloak should not get ramping costs... as cloak is used in PvE as well. Just do not allow re-cloaking when in combat(or only when in combat with another player). That also fixes the try and try and try again to kill someone playstyle. No re-cloaking during combat would add a risk to trying to gank someone from stealth.

Could also apply ramping cost only when in combat

This is a good and fair idea.

JerBearESO

I see a lot of back and forth about cloak having so many counters, so Perma cloak is fair. Isn't it obvious that this is overpowered solved by overpowered, which is never healthy.

Give it ramping cost, and reduce the degree of detection and pull out of cloak hard counters. We would then have a more consistent cloak that could not be abused without consequence.

Cloak should honestly give targeting immunity even under detection, detection being used only to keep up with the target, but have enough ramp to prevent spamming. Should ramp cost and ramp debuff duration even.

Current design is waaay overpowered when no counters are in the opponents kit, but does near nothing vs a detection kit. THAT needs solved!

ProudMary

SandandStars wrote: »

For what it’s worth, when I use Blinding Flare or Inner Light to pull an NB out of cloak, they immediately recloak at least 80% of the time.

I’m a PvPer for about 2.5 years, and I tend to do quite well. Often win 1st place on winning team in high mmr bgs, etc. (Xbox NA)

I really am confused by the sharp contrast between ppl who say the counters to cloak consistently work well for them and those who say they don’t prevent NBs from immediately recloaking.

I honestly don’t believe it’s a “Learn to Play” issue.

I’m trying to think of other factors that could account for such markedly different experiences using Blinding Flare or Inner Light…

Maybe there are tricks/exploits that are more widely known on different platforms?

It's only NB main's that claim Cloak isn't dependable and everything pulls them out of cloak, when in reality very few things short of a detect pot pulls them out of cloak reliably.

Turning invisible during combat is simply a mechanic that never should be introduced into a PvP environment. That was the mistake; letting people think it was normal and learning to crutch on invisibility as a skill. Maybe it would be ok as a potion with a 45 second cool down, but not as a skill.