Do "Heavy Attack" builds deserve that high damage?

PrincessOfThieves · May 2023

And I don't know what you want me to say about "sustain, resistances and healing capabilities" other than gear and builds help negate these concerns, just like in all MMO's. HA players are trading top end dps, for a bit of survivability.

That is not true. When you have enough dps for trifectas, you are not giving up damage in any meaningful way. The only thing where they lose a dps race is score pushing, and that's a very niche activity for maybe a couple of hundred players across all servers.
Yes, the highest parses ever are done on 2 bar LA builds. But after a certain point, more dps is only needed for higher scores and showing off.

Zastrix · May 2023

BlueRaven wrote: »

People with the correct gear and build are better prepared for particular situations. Shocker.

Oakensorc has only one set you can use. It's a set for all situations. The point of the sentence is that there's no 'high end HA' build. If you have the correct sets you ARE a 'high end HA' as it takes no skill. I once remoted into a friends PC via Parsec and parsed on an oakensorc. I had 93k the first time I ever TOUCHED a sorc as a DD and idk what the skills even did.

BlueRaven wrote: »

And what is with all these trial players wanting more deaths in encounters? “This build is bad, it prevents wipes in trials.”

More like hey this thing where I spent days/weeks/months acquiring can now be acquired by someones mom who doesn't play ESO because they can hold one button down constantly.

BlueRaven wrote: »

Last time I checked Doom Eternals combat is much less complex than ESO’s. It’s more about avoiding damage, than having a rotation.

It's as complex for a singleplayer exp. as ESO is. Again ESO is multiplayer so it depends on group (and guess what Oakensorcs don't do that.) It's about kiting, which normal DDs have to do whereas Oakensorcs don't in most cases unless it's a oneshot in some cases (in vMoS oakensorcs can survive the oneshot aoe without blocking). It's about rotating weapons (gear / skills), mods of weapons (morphs) and doing animation cancelling by swapping weapons (like how you swap bars but just every god darn second) (I've speedrun Doom Eternal on Nightmare and have all of the achievements on Steam).

BlueRaven wrote: »

It’s the combat system in ESO that drives people away. (See earlier post.) The HA build is popular because it’s NOT ESO’s normal combat. That should tell you something.
If you want people to do bar swapping and weaving, that type of combat needs to become more like how HA is presented, not the other way around.

It's popular because it's easy and breaindead. Not because it's *different*, it's holding one button 95% of the time. It would be popular in ANY MMO.

I don't have a problem with non-LA builds being better than they currently are on line you use skills normally and actively playing in the combat (and when I did try it out on PTS I had really similar damage when compared with weaving). I have a problem with setup where you hold one button down and then have more DPS than most DDs who spent a lot of their time into the game.

BlueRaven wrote: »

No game is looking at ESO (and that includes Doom Eternal) and going; “Let’s do combat like that!”

Every MMO before ESO has WoW styled combat and every game after ESO has basically ESO's (active direction-bassed combat)? And I won't say ESO-like combat, I'll say TERA like combat, they're the ones who used the idea first.

Doom Eternal is a shooter game so of course it's not going to do similar combat.

Also I just had a vDSR run in a guild:

Braffin · May 2023

Daoin wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

nobody incuding me is explaing mechs because in fungal grotto when is last time someone ran past the waterfall instead of jumping down it which was nice to see, and been given time in random group to do things thier own way as tank is so rare that i would say extinct but there we were. no fakes healer no fake tank 2 dd's. just enjoying the dungeon. no need for much chat and luckily there was supersorc stepping up when nobody else could have !

Well, indeed I do explain mechanics to newer players if they wish so. Even in old dungeons. Besides being a matter of politeness and respect for each other it's also healthy for the game if more players are knowing what they are doing.

And I gain something out of it too of course. I never lack tanks or healers if I need some. They are happy to run something with me.

never asked, and why worried then about healers not needed nor tanks being tanks and say you should refuse to play along side HA builds, how would the HA build ever effect your eso gaming ? apart from maybe the pets being a little distarcting on the sidelines which is in another post haha i mean if it's a pvp issue here then i admitam out of my depths to comment as dont do much IC or Cyro but little exp in BG with HA saw nothing that tipped the scales.

Yeah, I already got it, you have difficulties following the discussion. Not my problem if you don't understand that some of us care for other players experience.

I'm not the guy saying freely that nobody cares to explain anything to newer players, I hear it often from them nonetheless. There are a lot of forum posts too about that, steadily increasing since sergeant brokensorc saves the day.

That's not your problem you say. Fine, you're right on that.

On the other hand I'm not the one which is afraid of a slight adjustment of said build. The upcoming nerfs will do me no harm, as none of the previous nerfs for LA builds did. I simply adapt if necessary, instead of ranting in some forum.

Two bar players are not the problem here, oakensorc is, as the devs stated in pts patch notes. So they nerf it till they are pleased with the performance of said build. And I assure you, given the actual state of the game and looking at the general method zos is reacting at solidifying meta builds this slight nerf is only the beginning, rather a hotfix for the most urgent matter.

More about that will be seen in Q3, probably together with a adjustment od dragonknights.

BlueRaven · May 2023

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

And I don't know what you want me to say about "sustain, resistances and healing capabilities" other than gear and builds help negate these concerns, just like in all MMO's. HA players are trading top end dps, for a bit of survivability.

That is not true. When you have enough dps for trifectas, you are not giving up damage in any meaningful way. The only thing where they lose a dps race is score pushing, and that's a very niche activity for maybe a couple of hundred players across all servers.

So what is your argument here. Players that weave and have much more dps can be nerfed without issue? (Like the general populace actually knows or cares what a trifecta is.)

Or if HA has enough dps for a trifecta, than standard combat rotations (with far higher dps out put) can trade some of their dps for survivability?

Zastrix · May 2023

BlueRaven wrote: »

Or if HA has enough dps for a trifecta, than standard combat rotations (with far higher dps out put) can trade some of their dps for survivability?

Look at the screenshots I've posted. If DDs sacrificed their DPS for survivablity similar to what Oakensorcs have (if that's even possible) they might only do like 10k dps MAX.

Braffin · May 2023

BlueRaven wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Zastrix wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Is your argument that since high end HA dps is better than extremely low end weaving, it needs to be nerfed?

High end HA? My guy there's nothing to do to be 'high end HA' except have the correct gear? There's literally no skill required except for rolldoding (maybe).

BlueRaven wrote: »

Just as HA builds are not competitive against top end dps builds.

Except they are in most actual content. They can outdps because of AOE, sustain, range, buffs and pen.

BlueRaven wrote: »

Also HA is not auto pilot.

vMoS Oakensorc builds can completely ignore the oneshot from lurchers, they maybe get reduced to 60% health from the lurchers where other character need to sustain stamina to not die whilst blocking. And even then they're reduced to 10-20% HP so unless you're not max HP you're dead. Also I have a friends who accidentally did vMA perfected run with an Oakensorc whilst barely able to do it with a normal build he had for waaaay longer.

I have friends who play as Oakensorcs instead of their previous builds because they themselves describe the build as being braindead easy... which it is.

ZoS made accesibility with Oakensorcs great which is a positive thing. But there should be a limit to where. You really shouldn't expect to play a braindead build and then get trifectas and whine when you don't get them. If you can do normal content, a 10% damage nerf is nothing. It should've been more like 30% and even THEN you would be able to do most content on normal and vet whilst trifectas would be harder.

People saying that Oakensorcs need to do mechanics is technically not incorrect. Sure you only do a fraction of mechanics and still outdps people who play mechanics but you know you still technically do the mechanics as well.

Let's take doom eternal. I really don't hear people whining about not being able to do Nightmare difficulty without swapping weapons and without altering the weapon to suit the case, if you can't do that just lower the difficulty of the game

People with the correct gear and build are better prepared for particular situations. Shocker.

And what is with all these trial players wanting more deaths in encounters? “This build is bad, it prevents wipes in trials.”

Last time I checked Doom Eternals combat is much less complex than ESO’s. It’s more about avoiding damage, than having a rotation.

It’s the combat system in ESO that drives people away. (See earlier post.) The HA build is popular because it’s NOT ESO’s normal combat. That should tell you something.
If you want people to do bar swapping and weaving, that type of combat needs to become more like how HA is presented, not the other way around.

No game is looking at ESO (and that includes Doom Eternal) and going; “Let’s do combat like that!”

Stop your cherrypicking regarding why people are not playing this game. Sure, there are people not playing eso for the combat. As there are people not playing wow, gw2, swtor or any other game for the combat (simply not action-based enough for example).

You make a very bad strawman here, and you probably know it.

Fact is, there are different difficulties for a reason in almost every game so different players can have fun playing it while enjoying the same content (besides difficulty). You want to negate this because you personally don't like the combat system.

If you aren't up for a challenge why bother with highest difficulty in the first place? Is the story better there? Or the animations?

Tell me: What is the reason for playing hardmode then?

PS: Why do still refuse to talk about sustain, resistances and healing capabilities of sergeant brokensorc compared to any other build? No arguments around?

I did not pick "Doom Eternal" out of a hat, the person I was responding to put it out there. Why not chastize them for cherry picking? Or am I not allowed to respond to them? Are only people you agree with allowed to mention other games now?

Cherry picking? Show me an outside game developer that sings the praises of ESO’s combat. Show me a game review that talks about ESO's "outstanding combat". Show me a game description that says "ESO-like combat" as a positive descriptor.

Oakensoul (There is no B or R in that by the way) was not created out of a vacuum, it was created because so few people actually like ESO's combat. Even the people currently playing the game. That is how bad the current combat system is. Why do you think so many people flocked to it? Because they would happily leave the current standard combat system behind. No one picked up the ring and was sad they could not bar swap anymore.

And zos could not sustain adding so much vet content with so few people participating. You should be happy so many players got their dps raised. That means zos has less fear about adding difficult content as there is (finally) an actual audience for it.

***

There is no one out there singing the praises of combat in this game.

Here is another person, a fifth person from mmo-c posting about eso's combat:

"Combat still sucks, but I'm back and playing and still haven't the foggiest clue how to weave."

And no one is defending it there. No one. (At the time of this writing.)

And then there is our own forums:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/632399/ha-nerfs-the-poll/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/626539/do-you-actually-enjoy-the-light-heavy-attack-weaving-mechanic-within-esos-combat-system/p1

Over half the respondents don't like weaving.

***

Why do people do (vet) trials, hardmodes, whatever? There are many different reasons why people do trials.
Maybe someone who does not like the combat, still wants to hang out with the guild/friends in a trial. Maybe people who don't like the combat are still completionists. Curiosity. Housing leads/rewards...

You might as well be asking why people even play videogames.

(BTW Maybe you should do trials with a bunch of HA builds, at least they are not competing against you for gear drops.)

Why people want to do trials for is their own business. For me I just like filling in with my Stam Bow/DW blade toon when they need a twelfth person. And hanging out with them in Discord, of course. Otherwise I am perfectly content NOT doing trials or dungeons at all. (And I have completed vMOL btw.)

***

And I don't know what you want me to say about "sustain, resistances and healing capabilities" other than gear and builds help negate these concerns, just like in all MMO's. HA players are trading top end dps, for a bit of survivability. Standard two bar players can do the same if they wish. Instead of putting all the points into stam or mag, put some in health? Instead of stam/mag enchants, add something that makes you more tanky? Wear a set with heavier armor perhaps? Overall dps will drop down to HA levels, but at least survivability will increase.
Be a glass cannon or be a bit more survivable, do what you want, I honestly don't care.

Picking a few isolated opinions from all over the internet, while assuming them a majority without bringing proof is exactly what charrypicking and making strawman arguments is about.

But yeah, it makes no sense arguing with you about the game anymore. You made your decision, and zos made theirs. That's why sergeant brokensorc (!) is nerfed. And I appreciate it.

Daoin · May 2023

wonder if its the same folk selliing the old trifecta achievments in craglorn 24 hours a day that this could be a worrying subject for ! 'SuperSorc...we need you ' i think the last time i laughed and asked how much they charge for things like that was told something silly like 30+ mill per run.. now there i can understand there are toes no Sorc should be stepping on ' we dont want your free to take damage we want your gold for same thing.

SeaGtGruff · May 2023

Braffin wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Sigh.. it has nothing to do with "elitism", it has everything to do with balancing. Their ultimate decision was to open hard mode veteran content to more people while helping ones who barely can touch vet or normal group content alone, they've successfully done it and now trying to tweak it's peak performance to have at least something for people who are here for an actual challenge and not because "I want rewards now". Everything for everyone approach rarely works and a lot of people aren't enjoying it here.

That's now on them how they'll approach it without undoing their efforts and it seems sky isn't falling this time around.

Exactly this.

There is a reason for defining roles (tank, healer, damage dealer) in the first place: To get people to together as a group, relying on each other and form something which is bigger than it's parts.

Sergeant Broakensorc doesn't need any of this, as he is almost as tanky as a real tank, so he may stand in stupid all day long (ignoring mechanics while doing so), does his healing for himself while pulling dps above average.
I'm not even talking about sustain here (one of the most important game mechanics in eso's groupplay since launch) as the whole mechanic is simply eliminated by using this build.

A selfish playstyle often used by selfish players.

That's why balancing is needed.

Wow, judgy much?

If you change that to "solo playstyle" and "solo players" then it comes across as less judgy and baiting. There are a lot of players who primarily play solo, and there's nothing wrong with that. Solo builds must be a bit of everything-- part tank, part DD, part healer; in other words, well-rounded. That also means they aren't going to be as good at each of those things as a straight-up tank, DD, and healer would be; possibly almost as good as, but not equal to.

Solo builds have been around since long before Oakensoul was introduced into the game, and they will continue to be a thing even if Oakensoul were to be removed from the game.

Zastrix · May 2023

Daoin wrote: »

wonder if its the same folk selliing the old trifecta achievments in craglorn 24 hours a day that this could be a worrying subject for ! 'SuperSorc...we need you ' i think the last time i laughed and asked how much they charge for things like that was told something silly like 30+ mill per run.. now there i can understand there are toes no Sorc should be stepping on

People who actually care about people earning triectas with their skills also don't like triecta sales? I don't like how easy oakensorc is but I also don't like people just spending money to get the same achievement I worked hard for? You can just buy crowns, sell or gold and then buy triecta which is a big no-no or me.

Item farm on the other hand is just pay or aster gear which is okay I guess? You have to complete it either way on non-hm to get it.

Daoin · May 2023

Braffin wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

nobody incuding me is explaing mechs because in fungal grotto when is last time someone ran past the waterfall instead of jumping down it which was nice to see, and been given time in random group to do things thier own way as tank is so rare that i would say extinct but there we were. no fakes healer no fake tank 2 dd's. just enjoying the dungeon. no need for much chat and luckily there was supersorc stepping up when nobody else could have !

Well, indeed I do explain mechanics to newer players if they wish so. Even in old dungeons. Besides being a matter of politeness and respect for each other it's also healthy for the game if more players are knowing what they are doing.

And I gain something out of it too of course. I never lack tanks or healers if I need some. They are happy to run something with me.

never asked, and why worried then about healers not needed nor tanks being tanks and say you should refuse to play along side HA builds, how would the HA build ever effect your eso gaming ? apart from maybe the pets being a little distarcting on the sidelines which is in another post haha i mean if it's a pvp issue here then i admitam out of my depths to comment as dont do much IC or Cyro but little exp in BG with HA saw nothing that tipped the scales.

Yeah, I already got it, you have difficulties following the discussion. Not my problem if you don't understand that some of us care for other players experience.

I'm not the guy saying freely that nobody cares to explain anything to newer players, I hear it often from them nonetheless. There are a lot of forum posts too about that, steadily increasing since sergeant brokensorc saves the day.

That's not your problem you say. Fine, you're right on that.

On the other hand I'm not the one which is afraid of a slight adjustment of said build. The upcoming nerfs will do me no harm, as none of the previous nerfs for LA builds did. I simply adapt if necessary, instead of ranting in some forum.

Two bar players are not the problem here, oakensorc is, as the devs stated in pts patch notes. So they nerf it till they are pleased with the performance of said build. And I assure you, given the actual state of the game and looking at the general method zos is reacting at solidifying meta builds this slight nerf is only the beginning, rather a hotfix for the most urgent matter.

More about that will be seen in Q3, probably together with a adjustment od dragonknights.

the thing is we dont know each other i would be more than happy to group with you ingame on any build to show you the ropes too as i would with all players some just dont want or need to be told what to do as seen in many forum posts, and from witnessing how being told what to do by most players really means, in saying it and the way its actually done in groups there is a big difference best wait until asked if you ask me

an even more polite approach to just doing as far i can see. never the less you hate HA builds can i ask what the experience was when grouped with HA builds that made you feel so strongly ? maybe i could help i can understand it could be a confusing situation but why 'put it out there' if really you only thing that concerns you is that content too easy for other players now ? you can enjoy the same content as HA builds doing it as an equal player too, others peoples reasons for using this build are there own and should be able to do so and enjoy it without a song and a dance about it. again in the end i really dont care what happens HA sorc was never a go-to character for me for anthing anyway, and im sure SuperSorc would say as someone else ealier, 'enjoy it's a hell of a ride'

BlueRaven · May 2023

Zastrix wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Or if HA has enough dps for a trifecta, than standard combat rotations (with far higher dps out put) can trade some of their dps for survivability?

Look at the screenshots I've posted. If DDs sacrificed their DPS for survivablity similar to what Oakensorcs have (if that's even possible) they might only do like 10k dps MAX.

[snip]

These forums are filled with “proofs” that dks/sorcs/nbs/etc are over/under performing. About gear needing changes. Everyone points at everyone else for nerfs.

I thought this rather selfish behavior was just regulated to some pvp players who get upset over losing a duel or getting run over by a group. But I see now it’s bleeding over into the pve community. A community I thought was just happy when bosses fall over and played dead.

But instead there is this infestation of pve players, judging other people they know nothing about, over what these strangers “deserve”.

What happened to this community? It was so much nicer just a year ago, [snip]

I don’t care if a spec is “over performing” in pve (I don’t understand why anyone does). Make other builds perform and play like HA sorcs. It will be better for the game if more people are engaged in endgame, not less.

It is a holiday weekend here, I am done with this. It’s just sad to see so many people happily tearing down what other players can do vs an npc.

[Edited for minor baiting and minor bashing]

PrincessOfThieves · May 2023

BlueRaven wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

And I don't know what you want me to say about "sustain, resistances and healing capabilities" other than gear and builds help negate these concerns, just like in all MMO's. HA players are trading top end dps, for a bit of survivability.

That is not true. When you have enough dps for trifectas, you are not giving up damage in any meaningful way. The only thing where they lose a dps race is score pushing, and that's a very niche activity for maybe a couple of hundred players across all servers.

So what is your argument here. Players that weave and have much more dps can be nerfed without issue? (Like the general populace actually knows or cares what a trifecta is.)

Or if HA has enough dps for a trifecta, than standard combat rotations (with far higher dps out put) can trade some of their dps for survivability?

Far higher dps output? Maybe for a tiny minority of players who spend literal hundreds of hours parsing. An average player or even an average raider would not be able to replicate these 130k parses. An average player would be lucky to get 80k with the same builds... On guild discords I see many 60k, 70k parses with the same sets. And these players really are trying, they're just not perfect.
Oakensorc pretty much guarantees you the same dps if you are able to hold down your heavy attack button. More, if you press skills from time to time. It's just not comparable to having to do any actual rotation. It even simplifies dungeon/trial mechanics - standing in stupid is far less deadly when you have really high hp and resists.
Imo, it should either lose the damage (60-70k max or so) or the tankiness. It could also be cool if they added more advanced HA build options with higher damage - with 2 bars and no training wheels.

Daoin · May 2023

I do think this discussion will encourage me to make a new character though and call it 'SuperSorc' only came up with it off-hand but i like it and fits the description

then if the build is no longer usuable in random groups to any fun purpose there will always be a spot dedicated to the times in my character list, when my main sorc (1st character made in eso) loses the shades and reverts back to going to his homes cellar instead of the dread cellar and doing conjurations for fun

Braffin · May 2023

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Sigh.. it has nothing to do with "elitism", it has everything to do with balancing. Their ultimate decision was to open hard mode veteran content to more people while helping ones who barely can touch vet or normal group content alone, they've successfully done it and now trying to tweak it's peak performance to have at least something for people who are here for an actual challenge and not because "I want rewards now". Everything for everyone approach rarely works and a lot of people aren't enjoying it here.

That's now on them how they'll approach it without undoing their efforts and it seems sky isn't falling this time around.

Exactly this.

There is a reason for defining roles (tank, healer, damage dealer) in the first place: To get people to together as a group, relying on each other and form something which is bigger than it's parts.

Sergeant Broakensorc doesn't need any of this, as he is almost as tanky as a real tank, so he may stand in stupid all day long (ignoring mechanics while doing so), does his healing for himself while pulling dps above average.
I'm not even talking about sustain here (one of the most important game mechanics in eso's groupplay since launch) as the whole mechanic is simply eliminated by using this build.

A selfish playstyle often used by selfish players.

That's why balancing is needed.

Wow, judgy much?

If you change that to "solo playstyle" and "solo players" then it comes across as less judgy and baiting. There are a lot of players who primarily play solo, and there's nothing wrong with that. Solo builds must be a bit of everything-- part tank, part DD, part healer; in other words, well-rounded. That also means they aren't going to be as good at each of those things as a straight-up tank, DD, and healer would be; possibly almost as good as, but not equal to.

Solo builds have been around since long before Oakensoul was introduced into the game, and they will continue to be a thing even if Oakensoul were to be removed from the game.

I have no problem with solo playstyle at all, and use it myself too sometimes.

Don't want to see that playstyle harmed.

Pale order treatment for oakensoul would be a solution to this one.

Amottica · May 2023

HA builds should do ok but the simpler builds should not reach the point where they are doing near top damage in the game. Skilled play should be rewarded.

BlindingBright · May 2023

Amottica wrote: »

HA builds should do ok but the simpler builds should not reach the point where they are doing near top damage in the game. Skilled play should be rewarded.

I think the friction comes from the fact this build became prevalent in the wake of ZoS heavily nerfing dual bar builds at the same time. Likewise, as a necro- I have seen my class get nerfed nearly every patch...

Meanwhile HA Sorcs go BRRRRRRRRRRRRR, even in Trial HM content.

To push out 2x the APM(actions per minute) than a HA build but not get more damage(depending on the class/setup/content) that... that is the real issue for most. The effort is not being rewarded, and in ZoS's case they inflicted disenfranchisement in their playerbase who have put in a lot of effort to produce damage at a high APM. Many of these players don't want HA nerfed, they want their playstyle buffed to at least provide the competitive advantage it should for being squishy, and requiring MUCH MORE EFFORT.

Then there is the whole other issue of supports getting "lazy" because HA sorc's make up half the DPS and require less heals in content... then also leading to the HA builds performing EVEN BETTER in content because they're still alive... and supports blaming DPS for dotting out on mechanics- things they should have been healed out of. But that's a whole different issue, this game gives horrible feedback to healers on if they're outputting enough heals.... vs a DPS looking at a CMX number go up when they hit a dummy.

It's pretty simple, more effort should equal more reward.

Rkindaleft · May 2023

Why are people on 100k DPS Oakensorc builds comparing themselves to the 0.000001% of DPS that can do 130k? They all talk like everyone on LA hits those numbers.

The 100k you hit with 3 buttons is still significantly more DPS than the average LA progression style player can do with 2 bars (maybe somewhere in the 80-90k range, that also requires much more practice and effort compared to a HA DPS.)

This is the highest DPS I have ever hit (121k) and it took me over 100 hours of research and practice to do across characters to get my weaving up to this point. Yet, this build DOES NOT function better in actual raid scenarios compared to what the brokensorc DPS can do at the same level of play - I.E progging trial trifectas.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n73Xp1jrlFc&feature=youtu.be&ab_channel=Rkindaleft

I don't dislike HA builds, I respect that they are a pretty important thing overall for accessibility as getting more players into veteran trials is only healthy for the game - but balancing wise, the build has:

1) Infinite sustain
2) 30k health
3) Basically tank level resists
4) Fully ranged

Why would I want to use a LA build in raid when DPS output in the actual raid (please stop comparing LA dummy DPS with no heals or shields to Oakensorc parses, they're not a 1 to 1 comparison) is similar, has worse sustain, has worse survivability and has a substantially more difficult rotation to use?

ADarklore · May 2023

So tired of these "sky is falling" threads. Empower only received a slight nerf, and ZOS only did that to appease those complaining about Oakensoul HA builds. The end result is that it is a negligible change that players won't really even notice anyway. Personally, I run Oakensoul on all my builds and they are not even a HA focused build. I'm just glad they nerfed EMPOWER and didn't nerf Oakensoul itself.

Rkindaleft · May 2023

ADarklore wrote: »

So tired of these "sky is falling" threads. Empower only received a slight nerf, and ZOS only did that to appease those complaining about Oakensoul HA builds. The end result is that it is a negligible change that players won't really even notice anyway. Personally, I run Oakensoul on all my builds and they are not even a HA focused build. I'm just glad they nerfed EMPOWER and didn't nerf Oakensoul itself.

I agree, I have been fairly active in the 274645 threads about Oaken HA that have been posted since the first PTS release, and I come across the same arguments about “blah, your LA build can do 130k!!1!” every 3 posts and so many people have listed very good arguments as to why you can’t compare them, including myself. I don’t think Oaken should be nerfed as 1bar builds are an important thing for player accessibility but Empower deserves to be. The fact that it’s meta for dungeon trifectas, vAS IR and solo arenas outside of score pushing should immediately tell you that the build is scaled too heavily due to its combination of great damage and extremely high survivability. Why is a zero effort build BiS for like 90% of the vet content in the game?

Braffin · May 2023

Rkindaleft wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

So tired of these "sky is falling" threads. Empower only received a slight nerf, and ZOS only did that to appease those complaining about Oakensoul HA builds. The end result is that it is a negligible change that players won't really even notice anyway. Personally, I run Oakensoul on all my builds and they are not even a HA focused build. I'm just glad they nerfed EMPOWER and didn't nerf Oakensoul itself.

I agree, I have been fairly active in the 274645 threads about Oaken HA that have been posted since the first PTS release, and I come across the same arguments about “blah, your LA build can do 130k!!1!” every 3 posts and so many people have listed very good arguments as to why you can’t compare them, including myself. I don’t think Oaken should be nerfed as 1bar builds are an important thing for player accessibility but Empower deserves to be. The fact that it’s meta for dungeon trifectas and vAS IR should immediately tell you that the build is scaled too heavily due to its combination of great damage and extremely high survivability. Why is a zero effort build BiS for like 90% of the vet content in the game?

You're right, but I don't think even empower is the problem here. It's, as many stated already, simply the combination of sergeant's mail (a set which hasn't done any good since it's introduction imo) with a lightning staff.

Nerf this set (so it only buffs the last tick of the channeled lightning attack) and there is no further need to touch oaken (besides maybe the defensive potential like aegis and mending) and you could even buff empower (to make other HA styles viable) without doing any harm.

At this point I'm simply convinced that a clear minority is yelling against this. Exactly the guys you described above, which are in fact exploiting this build for easy trifectas.

Soarora · May 2023

Braffin wrote: »

Rkindaleft wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

So tired of these "sky is falling" threads. Empower only received a slight nerf, and ZOS only did that to appease those complaining about Oakensoul HA builds. The end result is that it is a negligible change that players won't really even notice anyway. Personally, I run Oakensoul on all my builds and they are not even a HA focused build. I'm just glad they nerfed EMPOWER and didn't nerf Oakensoul itself.

I agree, I have been fairly active in the 274645 threads about Oaken HA that have been posted since the first PTS release, and I come across the same arguments about “blah, your LA build can do 130k!!1!” every 3 posts and so many people have listed very good arguments as to why you can’t compare them, including myself. I don’t think Oaken should be nerfed as 1bar builds are an important thing for player accessibility but Empower deserves to be. The fact that it’s meta for dungeon trifectas and vAS IR should immediately tell you that the build is scaled too heavily due to its combination of great damage and extremely high survivability. Why is a zero effort build BiS for like 90% of the vet content in the game?

You're right, but I don't think even empower is the problem here. It's, as many stated already, simply the combination of sergeant's mail (a set which hasn't done any good since it's introduction imo) with a lightning staff.

Nerf this set (so it only buffs the last tick of the channeled lightning attack) and there is no further need to touch oaken (besides maybe the defensive potential like aegis and mending) and you could even buff empower (to make other HA styles viable) without doing any harm.

At this point I'm simply convinced that a clear minority is yelling against this. Exactly the guys you described above, which are in fact exploiting this build for easy trifectas.

My understanding is that there are several groups:
1. Actually disabled people who had their builds nerfed in u35 and don’t want to rebuild like the rest of us had to
2. Hates weaving with a burning passion (I’ve been trying to look at the animations and I don’t see the jarring spazzing out that people are talking about?)
3. Can’t barswap because of ping
4. Newbies who don’t want to git gud they want big damage now
5. People who have HA builds but they’re poorly made so they do low damage and thus are panicking about any nerfs
6. Quantity over quality of people in endgame opinion havers
7. “It’s a game, people should have fun” (aka: progs shouldn’t exist and anyone should be able to do trifectas)

Braffin · May 2023

Soarora wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Rkindaleft wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

So tired of these "sky is falling" threads. Empower only received a slight nerf, and ZOS only did that to appease those complaining about Oakensoul HA builds. The end result is that it is a negligible change that players won't really even notice anyway. Personally, I run Oakensoul on all my builds and they are not even a HA focused build. I'm just glad they nerfed EMPOWER and didn't nerf Oakensoul itself.

I agree, I have been fairly active in the 274645 threads about Oaken HA that have been posted since the first PTS release, and I come across the same arguments about “blah, your LA build can do 130k!!1!” every 3 posts and so many people have listed very good arguments as to why you can’t compare them, including myself. I don’t think Oaken should be nerfed as 1bar builds are an important thing for player accessibility but Empower deserves to be. The fact that it’s meta for dungeon trifectas and vAS IR should immediately tell you that the build is scaled too heavily due to its combination of great damage and extremely high survivability. Why is a zero effort build BiS for like 90% of the vet content in the game?

You're right, but I don't think even empower is the problem here. It's, as many stated already, simply the combination of sergeant's mail (a set which hasn't done any good since it's introduction imo) with a lightning staff.

Nerf this set (so it only buffs the last tick of the channeled lightning attack) and there is no further need to touch oaken (besides maybe the defensive potential like aegis and mending) and you could even buff empower (to make other HA styles viable) without doing any harm.

At this point I'm simply convinced that a clear minority is yelling against this. Exactly the guys you described above, which are in fact exploiting this build for easy trifectas.

My understanding is that there are several groups:
1. Actually disabled people who had their builds nerfed in u35 and don’t want to rebuild like the rest of us had to
2. Hates weaving with a burning passion (I’ve been trying to look at the animations and I don’t see the jarring spazzing out that people are talking about?)
3. Can’t barswap because of ping
4. Newbies who don’t want to git gud they want big damage now
5. People who have HA builds but they’re poorly made so they do low damage and thus are panicking about any nerfs
6. Quantity over quality of people in endgame opinion havers
7. “It’s a game, people should have fun” (aka: progs shouldn’t exist and anyone should be able to do trifectas)

I get your point, but I'm not convinced entirely yet:
1. This group won't be harmed, as the upcoming nerfs are quite small and will exclude nobody from content.
2. Weaving isn't even necessary to complete most content. A simple LA every now and then for the procs is enough, you don't have to weave it.
3. This group would even benefit from a full rework of HA builds like for example @Billium813 suggested above.
4. Newbies simply don't come around the corner with random parses from cmx or esologs to fortify their position.
5. It has been showed several times, that there is no need for panicking. Including proof.
6. I give you that, these people are around. But again, the upcoming nerfs aren't impactful enough to prohibit participation in endgame trials (not even talking about dungeons here)
7. Yes, these people also exist, and they are the biggest problem this community has atm. The "toxic casual". The opposite would be the claim to rebalance the whole game to original craglorn difficulty. They are harming the game's health in general and they need to know it.

Soarora · May 2023

Braffin wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Rkindaleft wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

So tired of these "sky is falling" threads. Empower only received a slight nerf, and ZOS only did that to appease those complaining about Oakensoul HA builds. The end result is that it is a negligible change that players won't really even notice anyway. Personally, I run Oakensoul on all my builds and they are not even a HA focused build. I'm just glad they nerfed EMPOWER and didn't nerf Oakensoul itself.

I agree, I have been fairly active in the 274645 threads about Oaken HA that have been posted since the first PTS release, and I come across the same arguments about “blah, your LA build can do 130k!!1!” every 3 posts and so many people have listed very good arguments as to why you can’t compare them, including myself. I don’t think Oaken should be nerfed as 1bar builds are an important thing for player accessibility but Empower deserves to be. The fact that it’s meta for dungeon trifectas and vAS IR should immediately tell you that the build is scaled too heavily due to its combination of great damage and extremely high survivability. Why is a zero effort build BiS for like 90% of the vet content in the game?

You're right, but I don't think even empower is the problem here. It's, as many stated already, simply the combination of sergeant's mail (a set which hasn't done any good since it's introduction imo) with a lightning staff.

Nerf this set (so it only buffs the last tick of the channeled lightning attack) and there is no further need to touch oaken (besides maybe the defensive potential like aegis and mending) and you could even buff empower (to make other HA styles viable) without doing any harm.

At this point I'm simply convinced that a clear minority is yelling against this. Exactly the guys you described above, which are in fact exploiting this build for easy trifectas.

My understanding is that there are several groups:
1. Actually disabled people who had their builds nerfed in u35 and don’t want to rebuild like the rest of us had to
2. Hates weaving with a burning passion (I’ve been trying to look at the animations and I don’t see the jarring spazzing out that people are talking about?)
3. Can’t barswap because of ping
4. Newbies who don’t want to git gud they want big damage now
5. People who have HA builds but they’re poorly made so they do low damage and thus are panicking about any nerfs
6. Quantity over quality of people in endgame opinion havers
7. “It’s a game, people should have fun” (aka: progs shouldn’t exist and anyone should be able to do trifectas)

I get your point, but I'm not convinced entirely yet:
1. This group won't be harmed, as the upcoming nerfs are quite small and will exclude nobody from content.
2. Weaving isn't even necessary to complete most content. A simple LA every now and then for the procs is enough, you don't have to weave it.
3. This group would even benefit from a full rework of HA builds like for example @Billium813 suggested above.
4. Newbies simply don't come around the corner with random parses from cmx or esologs to fortify their position.
5. It has been showed several times, that there is no need for panicking. Including proof.
6. I give you that, these people are around. But again, the upcoming nerfs aren't impactful enough to prohibit participation in endgame trials (not even talking about dungeons here)
7. Yes, these people also exist, and they are the biggest problem this community has atm. The "toxic casual". The opposite would be the claim to rebalance the whole game to original craglorn difficulty. They are harming the game's health in general and they need to know it.

Oh I definitely agree with you, but as we have seen in the HA threads trying to have discussions with these people, basically none of them are open-minded. They’re all panicking and refusing to see our side of things. Even though, as you’ve listed, they really shouldn’t be doing so.

Billium813 · May 2023

Braffin wrote: »

Pale order treatment for oakensoul would be a solution to this one.

Completely agree. IMO, they don't use the Pale Order treatment enough! Buffs like Minor Fortitude/Intellect/Endurance & Minor Berserk make way more sense for solo or small group play, but become redundant in large groups to the point of harming support. Buffs like Minor Slayer, Minor Aegis and Minor Force make more sense to be enabled in large groups, being buffs targeted at Trial sets and streamlined min/max builds.

One of the major complications with Oakensoul is that it's combining multiple roles into 1 mythic. The developers obviously want Oakensoul to be applicable to multiple roles, which is admirable if not complicated. This starts to cause problems with balance when DPS has access to classic support skills they otherwise NEVER would. For example, Minor Heroism DOES make sense on Oakensoul, but only really for a tank. A Tank using Oakensoul would have restricted bar space for something like Heroic Slash. However, a DPS would not have any access to this natively, even with 2 bars!

Alternatively, different buffs could be enabled/disabled based on selected role! For instance, as a DPS role, Oakensoul could disable Minor Protection, Minor Heroism, & Major Resolve.

Possible configuration:

(1 item) While equipped, you are unable to swap between your Primary and Backup Weapon Sets

(Tank) gain Minor Vitality, Minor Mending, Minor Protection, Major Resolve, Major Expedition, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance, Minor Heroism, Minor Aegis, and Heavy Attacks inflict Major Cowardice.
(Healer) gain Minor Mending, Major Protection, Major Resolve, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance, Minor Heroism, Minor Aegis, and Heavy Attacks inflict Minor Lifesteal.
(DPS) gain Minor Berserk, Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, Minor Force, Minor Slayer, and Empower.

*Notes:

I dropped Minor Courage because this isn't classically accessible BY DPS roles (instead given to them) and other roles don't really care about it
Major Cowardice to Tank HA is there to somewhat replace losing access to Weakening Enchantment
Minor Lifesteal to Healer HA was added to somewhat replace Blood Altar AND because Healer needs a little bit more IMO

Soarora · May 2023

Billium813 wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Pale order treatment for oakensoul would be a solution to this one.

Completely agree. IMO, they don't use the Pale Order treatment enough! Buffs like Minor Fortitude/Intellect/Endurance & Minor Berserk make way more sense for solo or small group play, but become redundant in large groups to the point of harming support. Buffs like Minor Slayer, Minor Aegis and Minor Force make more sense to be enabled in large groups, being buffs targeted at Trial sets and streamlined min/max builds.

One of the major complications with Oakensoul is that it's combining multiple roles into 1 mythic. The developers obviously want Oakensoul to be applicable to multiple roles, which is admirable if not complicated. This starts to cause problems with balance when DPS has access to classic support skills they otherwise NEVER would. For example, Minor Heroism DOES make sense on Oakensoul, but only really for a tank. A Tank using Oakensoul would have restricted bar space for something like Heroic Slash. However, a DPS would not have any access to this natively, even with 2 bars!

Alternatively, different buffs could be enabled/disabled based on selected role! For instance, as a DPS role, Oakensoul could disable Minor Protection, Minor Heroism, & Major Resolve.

Possible configuration:

(1 item) While equipped, you are unable to swap between your Primary and Backup Weapon Sets

(Tank) gain Minor Vitality, Minor Mending, Minor Protection, Major Resolve, Major Expedition, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance, Minor Heroism, Minor Aegis, and Heavy Attacks inflict Major Cowardice.
(Healer) gain Minor Mending, Major Protection, Major Resolve, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance, Minor Heroism, Minor Aegis, and Heavy Attacks inflict Minor Lifesteal.
(DPS) gain Minor Berserk, Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, Minor Force, Minor Slayer, and Empower.

*Note: I dropped Minor Courage because this isn't classically accessible BY DPS roles (instead given to them) and other roles don't really care about it

Changing the buffs based off of selected role would be amazing and solve several problems.

Braffin · May 2023

Billium813 wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Pale order treatment for oakensoul would be a solution to this one.

Completely agree. IMO, they don't use the Pale Order treatment enough! Buffs like Minor Fortitude/Intellect/Endurance & Minor Berserk make way more sense for solo or small group play, but become redundant in large groups to the point of harming support. Buffs like Minor Slayer, Minor Aegis and Minor Force make more sense to be enabled in large groups, being buffs targeted at Trial sets and streamlined min/max builds.

One of the major complications with Oakensoul is that it's combining multiple roles into 1 mythic. The developers obviously want Oakensoul to be applicable to multiple roles, which is admirable if not complicated. This starts to cause problems with balance when DPS has access to classic support skills they otherwise NEVER would. For example, Minor Heroism DOES make sense on Oakensoul, but only really for a tank. A Tank using Oakensoul would have restricted bar space for something like Heroic Slash. However, a DPS would not have any access to this natively, even with 2 bars!

Alternatively, different buffs could be enabled/disabled based on selected role! For instance, as a DPS role, Oakensoul could disable Minor Protection, Minor Heroism, & Major Resolve.

Possible configuration:

(1 item) While equipped, you are unable to swap between your Primary and Backup Weapon Sets

(Tank) gain Minor Vitality, Minor Mending, Minor Protection, Major Resolve, Major Expedition, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance, Minor Heroism, Minor Aegis
(Healer) gain Minor Mending, Major Protection, Major Resolve, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance, Minor Heroism, Minor Aegis
(DPS) gain Minor Berserk, Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, Minor Force, Minor Slayer, and Empower

*Note: I dropped Minor Courage because this isn't classically accessible BY DPS roles (instead given to them) and other roles don't really care about it

Nice solution indeed, I had quite similar in mind.

If we add "while grouped inside a dungeon or trial" a perfect solution I dare to say. Outside of said content or if doing the content for example as soloplayer you would still benefit from todays iteration of oaken, which is imo important for accessibility and diversity.

PrincessOfThieves · May 2023

Soarora wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Pale order treatment for oakensoul would be a solution to this one.

Completely agree. IMO, they don't use the Pale Order treatment enough! Buffs like Minor Fortitude/Intellect/Endurance & Minor Berserk make way more sense for solo or small group play, but become redundant in large groups to the point of harming support. Buffs like Minor Slayer, Minor Aegis and Minor Force make more sense to be enabled in large groups, being buffs targeted at Trial sets and streamlined min/max builds.

One of the major complications with Oakensoul is that it's combining multiple roles into 1 mythic. The developers obviously want Oakensoul to be applicable to multiple roles, which is admirable if not complicated. This starts to cause problems with balance when DPS has access to classic support skills they otherwise NEVER would. For example, Minor Heroism DOES make sense on Oakensoul, but only really for a tank. A Tank using Oakensoul would have restricted bar space for something like Heroic Slash. However, a DPS would not have any access to this natively, even with 2 bars!

Alternatively, different buffs could be enabled/disabled based on selected role! For instance, as a DPS role, Oakensoul could disable Minor Protection, Minor Heroism, & Major Resolve.

Possible configuration:

(1 item) While equipped, you are unable to swap between your Primary and Backup Weapon Sets

(Tank) gain Minor Vitality, Minor Mending, Minor Protection, Major Resolve, Major Expedition, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance, Minor Heroism, Minor Aegis, and Heavy Attacks inflict Major Cowardice.
(Healer) gain Minor Mending, Major Protection, Major Resolve, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance, Minor Heroism, Minor Aegis, and Heavy Attacks inflict Minor Lifesteal.
(DPS) gain Minor Berserk, Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, Minor Force, Minor Slayer, and Empower.

*Note: I dropped Minor Courage because this isn't classically accessible BY DPS roles (instead given to them) and other roles don't really care about it

Billium813 wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Pale order treatment for oakensoul would be a solution to this one.

Completely agree. IMO, they don't use the Pale Order treatment enough! Buffs like Minor Fortitude/Intellect/Endurance & Minor Berserk make way more sense for solo or small group play, but become redundant in large groups to the point of harming support. Buffs like Minor Slayer, Minor Aegis and Minor Force make more sense to be enabled in large groups, being buffs targeted at Trial sets and streamlined min/max builds.

One of the major complications with Oakensoul is that it's combining multiple roles into 1 mythic. The developers obviously want Oakensoul to be applicable to multiple roles, which is admirable if not complicated. This starts to cause problems with balance when DPS has access to classic support skills they otherwise NEVER would. For example, Minor Heroism DOES make sense on Oakensoul, but only really for a tank. A Tank using Oakensoul would have restricted bar space for something like Heroic Slash. However, a DPS would not have any access to this natively, even with 2 bars!

Alternatively, different buffs could be enabled/disabled based on selected role! For instance, as a DPS role, Oakensoul could disable Minor Protection, Minor Heroism, & Major Resolve.

Possible configuration:

(1 item) While equipped, you are unable to swap between your Primary and Backup Weapon Sets

(Tank) gain Minor Vitality, Minor Mending, Minor Protection, Major Resolve, Major Expedition, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance, Minor Heroism, Minor Aegis, and Heavy Attacks inflict Major Cowardice.
(Healer) gain Minor Mending, Major Protection, Major Resolve, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance, Minor Heroism, Minor Aegis, and Heavy Attacks inflict Minor Lifesteal.
(DPS) gain Minor Berserk, Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, Minor Force, Minor Slayer, and Empower.

*Note: I dropped Minor Courage because this isn't classically accessible BY DPS roles (instead given to them) and other roles don't really care about it

Changing the buffs based off of selected role would be amazing and solve several problems.

I agree, it is a brilliant idea! Also, allowing 1 bar players to be supports would help a lot with accessibility. Many people find support roles too stressful and having easier builds might be a solution to the problem of fake tanks and long queues.

edward_frigidhands · June 2023

TheHornet wrote: »

Apparently ZOS and other players think that "Heavy Attack" builds do not deserve that high damage.

ZOS wrote:
Buffs and Debuffs
Empower: Reduced this bonus to 70%, down from 80%.
Developer Comment:
Spoiler
Since we've started working on Heavy Attack build viability in the past year, we've seen a massive surge in their use, which is absolutely phenomenal for seeing more players being able to participate in end-game content at a much more digestible pace. While we're happy to see these builds being ran, we're seeing these builds inch a little too close to some of the high end builds with how much more simplified they are, and in some rare cases, they're outperforming a standard build. We're cutting down the damage bonus here ever so slightly in hopes that when you have Empower with a bunch of other Heavy Attack bonus sets, the numbers are still nice and juicy, but not as close to a full-on Light Attack build.

1. Top notch are players doing LA weaving, nearly like a maschine - they deserve their ranking
2- "Heavy Attack” players have fun and get their goals to easy (there has something to be done) (they need to sufer as we LA players did)
3. Tanks and healers are fine as supporters

I wish I could show ZOS my dislike, sadly I bought the new DLC.
<changed title as it could come off as trolling/baiting>

The short answer is no.

That is why empower is disabled in pvp and they are making further adjustments.

The long answer is also no if you read between the lines.

ADarklore · June 2023

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

The short answer is no.

That is why empower is disabled in pvp and they are making further adjustments.

The long answer is also no if you read between the lines.

I don't expect them to make any 'further adjustments' given the huge backlash and outrage over the tiny 10% reduction of Empower with accusations of them harming people with disabilities and prohibiting them from completing content that they can now complete with a HA build, whereas previously they were unable to. It has brought more people into the game, given them a reason to stay versus people leaving the game due to HA popularity.

W0lf_z13 · June 2023

sorry no they don't.... while everyone else running 2 bar builds have to work hard for that high dmg... HA builds hold left click.... and OCCASIONALLY press a skill button.....and yes... I have tried the HA sorc build.... destroyed my sergeants and stormmaster setup shortly after.... HA sorcs/builds should not be able to be coming as close as they are to dmg as a fully setup 2 bar DD. I have talked to quite a few of my mid-tier dps friends and they have all said the same thing... "what's the point anymore... when a HA build can out dps me" that is EXTREMELY disheartening to hear from friends