Do "Heavy Attack" builds deserve that high damage?

TheHornet

Apparently ZOS and other players think that "Heavy Attack" builds do not deserve that high damage.

ZOS wrote:
Buffs and Debuffs
Empower: Reduced this bonus to 70%, down from 80%.
Developer Comment:
Spoiler
Since we've started working on Heavy Attack build viability in the past year, we've seen a massive surge in their use, which is absolutely phenomenal for seeing more players being able to participate in end-game content at a much more digestible pace. While we're happy to see these builds being ran, we're seeing these builds inch a little too close to some of the high end builds with how much more simplified they are, and in some rare cases, they're outperforming a standard build. We're cutting down the damage bonus here ever so slightly in hopes that when you have Empower with a bunch of other Heavy Attack bonus sets, the numbers are still nice and juicy, but not as close to a full-on Light Attack build.

1. Top notch are players doing LA weaving, nearly like a maschine - they deserve their ranking
2- "Heavy Attack” players have fun and get their goals to easy (there has something to be done) (they need to sufer as we LA players did)
3. Tanks and healers are fine as supporters

I wish I could show ZOS my dislike, sadly I bought the new DLC.
<changed title as it could come off as trolling/baiting>

Braffin

TheHornet wrote: »

Lets talk about elitism!
Apparently ZOS and other players think that "Heavy Attack" builds do not deserve that high damage.

ZOS wrote:
Buffs and Debuffs
Empower: Reduced this bonus to 70%, down from 80%.
Developer Comment:
Spoiler
Since we've started working on Heavy Attack build viability in the past year, we've seen a massive surge in their use, which is absolutely phenomenal for seeing more players being able to participate in end-game content at a much more digestible pace. While we're happy to see these builds being ran, we're seeing these builds inch a little too close to some of the high end builds with how much more simplified they are, and in some rare cases, they're outperforming a standard build. We're cutting down the damage bonus here ever so slightly in hopes that when you have Empower with a bunch of other Heavy Attack bonus sets, the numbers are still nice and juicy, but not as close to a full-on Light Attack build.

1. Top notch are players doing LA weaving, nearly like a maschine - they deserve their ranking
2- "Heavy Attack” players have fun and get their goals to easy (there has something to be done) (they need to sufer as we LA players did)
3. Tanks and healers are fine as supporters

I wish I could show ZOS my dislike, sadly I bought the new DLC.

So the developers of the game are elitists now themselves?

Sorry, but you should start to consider that you folks are the problem here, not the victims.

RodneyRegis

I want to win 100m gold at the olympics. Should it matter that I am massively overweight?

DrNukenstein

Be glad you aren't into the PVP.

They've been nerfing anything that isn't a tanky brawler with potent healing for like 3 patches straight now.

For example, here's what they had to say about the harmony nerf. A change that was basically targeted towards bomb necromancers (a totally rad and unique play style)

"This trait is currently far too niche for its intended use and is meant to be an enhancer to the Undaunted skill line and group play, but ironically is being utilized more by solo builds in PvP to instantly obliterate large groups. We’re shifting this trait over to be more recovery focused, which has much more use potential between PvE and PvP, rather than trying to continue making a value that doesn’t add more insta-gibbing potential but still has impact enough in PvE. "

That's just the one they bothered to comment on. Here are some they haven't:

-Changing Crushing/Elemental weapon to remove stealth when cast. Limiting potential burst from out of combat. This change coincided with the light/heavy attack nerfs of update 35
-Backlash+morphs being gutted in pvp. Some say it was a bug, some say it was because templars were a little op
-Dubious adding of the phrase "while in combat" to various potent sets and effects
-Consistently approaching nerfs to damage sets with a sledgehammer, while defensive sets get the scalpel (Mara's Balm. What a slow and surgical nerfing to such a problematic set)
-Werewolves get left behind more and more every patch, as if brawling is for hoomans only

For the record I do believe that high end results should be tied to high end performance in everything that any person does in life. It's an entirely agreeable position that heavy attack builds should let people hang with the big dogs, but never let them hang LIKE the big dogs.

Braffin

RodneyRegis wrote: »

I want to win 100m gold at the olympics. Should it matter that I am massively overweight?

Sure, you deserve motorized water wings then. Anything else would break the rule that you may swim as you want while you still eat what you want.

RodneyRegis

Braffin wrote: »

RodneyRegis wrote: »

I want to win 100m gold at the olympics. Should it matter that I am massively overweight?

Sure, you deserve motorized water wings then. Anything else would break the rule that you may swim as you want while you still eat what you want.

[snip] Why should I have to participate to win?

[edited for baiting]

Zastrix

TheHornet wrote: »

1. Top notch are players doing LA weaving, nearly like a maschine - they deserve their ranking

Maybe yes in the 0.00001% of the groups there are where you are scorepushing. Have you ever tried to make a really good build with 2 bars and then be out DPSd by some HA sorc because they have way more pen and can do a lot of damage from range AND aoe without suffering with sustain?

One of my guilds is a causal guild and someone made a HA sorc and accidentally had a perfect vMA run. Totally uncalled they did say that now all of the previous achievements where they had to learn mechanics and work hard now feel worthless as someone can no brain content like that.

I have some of my friends with super high DPS constantly play with HA builds because they are too easy and give the same DPS while being basically AFK. Def needs a nerf.

Soarora

If I am an elitist, then I will be one proudly. I don’t care anymore. Tried being open-minded, barely got anywhere. I used to be a casual and I’ve made my own builds because I hate meta culture. Weaving isn’t a requirement to get decent enough DPS. Not everyone needs to DPS, healing and tanking can be fun too. There’s no excuse to allow the deteroriation of the meaning of achievements and infiltrateation of group compositions like what has been happening.

Braffin

RodneyRegis wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

RodneyRegis wrote: »

I want to win 100m gold at the olympics. Should it matter that I am massively overweight?

Sure, you deserve motorized water wings then. Anything else would break the rule that you may swim as you want while you still eat what you want.

[snip] Why should I have to participate to win?

You will never win. Sergeant Broakensorc will. He always does.

Even Chuck Norris is using a lightning staff now, so he can finally beat himself.

[edited to remove quote]

Daoin

Basically i have never met a player in an RPG game that did not want to play for completion, in eso this means achievments this particular build opens up that door where it was closed before for some folk..end of discussion lol...still does not mean the sorc oaken build will be used for absolutely everthing by everyone. fact is yes, built like tanks and hit hard but who does not want all thier group to be staying alive and doing lots of damage in group play ? Truth is i never bothered much with changing my sorc to exclusive HA over the years after the arguments about it just kept on arising i started to, more and more but only in 99% randoms and 1% set groups it is a wonderful build for this purpose but for me i would not go HA for any other purpose right now, as i much prefer gaming with my NB or Templar DD or DK tanking. This build should be left alone or scrapped entirely as any changes making it any weaker now will defeat the reason why it is such a nice build. It is not an overpowered build and has weaknesses and strengths just like everthing else.

Aelorin

I really don't get all the hate for one bar Oakensoul builds.

For PvE: more people can do hard content, so you have more people that you can invite to veteran trials/dungeons. Groups fill up easier, so that's a win.

For PvP: I thought DK's still rule? And if the day comes these one bar builds outshine the DK, then we can all switch to one-bar Sorcerers and rule the new meta.

Edit: For the record, I'm not that fond of the one bar playstyle myself, I find it a bit too boring, but I'm okay with it that other people use it, even to get better at the game.

colossalvoids

Sigh.. it has nothing to do with "elitism", it has everything to do with balancing. Their ultimate decision was to open hard mode veteran content to more people while helping ones who barely can touch vet or normal group content alone, they've successfully done it and now trying to tweak it's peak performance to have at least something for people who are here for an actual challenge and not because "I want rewards now". Everything for everyone approach rarely works and a lot of people aren't enjoying it here.

That's now on them how they'll approach it without undoing their efforts and it seems sky isn't falling this time around.

Daoin

but yet its still like all things if you did it while it was hard then you have the personal thought of knowing it, but understanding things are going to change, 8 years ago i could not complete the main story line with my sorc, then could not shoot above 15k dps for a while still. I remember everyone saying you cant join trials unless you hit 30-k35k dps on a skeleton target (cant remember exact amount), in fact the view of others dps has always been a way for some to start try shaming others about in the game. should this also be the same from then until today ? you would think now people had to say things like 'we are failing, dps too low' *vote kick the lowest dps* wether the dps was good or not, and the support roles were not evening the scale. would be a thing to celebrate. things like this stick and even today i still do not trial dummy parse practice weaving or just 'go meta' but as mentioned have no problem doing things without those factors with or without a HA build

Braffin

colossalvoids wrote: »

Sigh.. it has nothing to do with "elitism", it has everything to do with balancing. Their ultimate decision was to open hard mode veteran content to more people while helping ones who barely can touch vet or normal group content alone, they've successfully done it and now trying to tweak it's peak performance to have at least something for people who are here for an actual challenge and not because "I want rewards now". Everything for everyone approach rarely works and a lot of people aren't enjoying it here.

That's now on them how they'll approach it without undoing their efforts and it seems sky isn't falling this time around.

Exactly this.

There is a reason for defining roles (tank, healer, damage dealer) in the first place: To get people to together as a group, relying on each other and form something which is bigger than it's parts.

Sergeant Broakensorc doesn't need any of this, as he is almost as tanky as a real tank, so he may stand in stupid all day long (ignoring mechanics while doing so), does his healing for himself while pulling dps above average.
I'm not even talking about sustain here (one of the most important game mechanics in eso's groupplay since launch) as the whole mechanic is simply eliminated by using this build.

A selfish playstyle often used by selfish players.

That's why balancing is needed.

Daoin

this is so untrue it is impossible to believe (selfish), in a random vet group just yesterday with sorc..the tank was a fairly new player the sorc was really high cp, the tank got pulled into cave at fungal 2 and the sorc literally just tanked the bosses (or shared tanking them, while the word tanking them is a bit over the top, i would say the boss could not kill the sorc on the spot ) and while yes doing damage, if that did not happen the others could not have taken on the job and group would have simply not completed the dungeon. where is the problem there that you would not encounter but much worse when tank and healer are both fakes and theres no chance whats so ever to complete a dungeon ? surely just this example is some balance if not even a thankyou for a trip not wasted

Braffin

Daoin wrote: »

this is so untrue it is impossible to believe (selfish), in a random vet group just yesterday with sorc..the tank was a fairly new player the sorc was really high cp, the tank got pulled into cave at fungal 2 and the sorc literally just tanked the bosses (or shared tanking them) and while yes doing damage, if that did not happen the other dd or healer could not have taken on the job and group would have simply not completed the dungeon. where is the problem there that you would not encounter but much worse when tank and healer are both fakes and theres no chance whats so ever to comnplete a dungeon ?

Play mechanics then.

It's not that hard to control who will get pulled into the cave in fungal 2.

But you say it for yourself: The tank wasn't needed anymore although the group was definitely not composed of elitists, which know how to play mechanics for sure.

You should have wiped, talked about the reason and try again. That's the purpose of running in a group, not some shiny reward without effort.

Btw, just one example for the problem we are talking about:

SoraJP wrote: »

Oakensoul fake heal. It's to the point where If I queue as DD and get a real healer in the group, I hate it. It's soooo much faster with 3 DPS (all vet DLC dungeons, nonhm, can be done this way). Especially when I'm doing 75% of the damage as a fake healer. Even had some cases where I'm tankier than the tank, who claims he is a real tank.

At least this player is honest enough to tell the truth about what he is doing with this build.

Daoin

nobody said the tank was not needed what was said is with the HA build in group as dd the dungeon passed and did not fail, no where through the dungeon does a dd take on the role of tank unless your skipping everthing in a fake role, there are certain mechs to skipping i dont know about too ? and why should he/she have known about how not to get pulled in if i already said seemed new to the dungeon ? i guess the next time if in group they wont and the sorc can concentate even more on damage making it a swift aswell as enjoyable run. well as your comments are a bit laughable sorcs are taking over and tanks are not needed anymore ? also while the healer can heal the dd less and make sure the tank stays up is a downside too!

Braffin

Daoin wrote: »

nobody said the tank was not needed what was said is with the HA build in group as dd the dungeon passed and did not fail, no where through the dungeon does a dd take on the role of tank unless your skipping everthing in a fake role, there are certain mechs to skipping i dont know about too ? and why should he/she have know about how not to get pulled in if i alreadt said seemed new to the dungeon ?

It has nothing to do with skipping. It's simply not random which player is pulled into the cave at fungal 2 last boss. Never has been.

The fact, that you don't know that after 8 years of playing and are now able to clear a dungeon without even knowing it's core mechanics shows exactly why this build is overperforming and has to be nerfed.

Daoin

i know mech for all dungeons and trials, [snip] but just to sum it up a little random grouping is better with more sorcs and less fakes

[edited for baiting]

Braffin

Daoin wrote: »

i know mech for all dungeons and trials, [snip]

Well, why didn't you position yourself correctly then?

[edited to remove quote]

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.

Thank you for your understanding.

chessalavakia_ESO

Braffin wrote: »

TheHornet wrote: »

Lets talk about elitism!
Apparently ZOS and other players think that "Heavy Attack" builds do not deserve that high damage.

ZOS wrote:
Buffs and Debuffs
Empower: Reduced this bonus to 70%, down from 80%.
Developer Comment:
Spoiler
Since we've started working on Heavy Attack build viability in the past year, we've seen a massive surge in their use, which is absolutely phenomenal for seeing more players being able to participate in end-game content at a much more digestible pace. While we're happy to see these builds being ran, we're seeing these builds inch a little too close to some of the high end builds with how much more simplified they are, and in some rare cases, they're outperforming a standard build. We're cutting down the damage bonus here ever so slightly in hopes that when you have Empower with a bunch of other Heavy Attack bonus sets, the numbers are still nice and juicy, but not as close to a full-on Light Attack build.

1. Top notch are players doing LA weaving, nearly like a maschine - they deserve their ranking
2- "Heavy Attack” players have fun and get their goals to easy (there has something to be done) (they need to sufer as we LA players did)
3. Tanks and healers are fine as supporters

I wish I could show ZOS my dislike, sadly I bought the new DLC.

So the developers of the game are elitists now themselves?

Sorry, but you should start to consider that you folks are the problem here, not the victims.

Most game development companies have hired players from the cream of the crop of the game itself or from the cream of the crop of other games to help develop them over the last couple decades.

As a result, most game development companies have a fair portion of their staff that at least in their day were elite.

If you look at ESO's design, I think it's pretty clear that ESO's developers lean towards being/having been elite and they struggle with developing content for people that aren't as skillful, knowledgeable, or as intelligent as they are.

Soarora

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

TheHornet wrote: »

Lets talk about elitism!
Apparently ZOS and other players think that "Heavy Attack" builds do not deserve that high damage.

ZOS wrote:
Buffs and Debuffs
Empower: Reduced this bonus to 70%, down from 80%.
Developer Comment:
Spoiler
Since we've started working on Heavy Attack build viability in the past year, we've seen a massive surge in their use, which is absolutely phenomenal for seeing more players being able to participate in end-game content at a much more digestible pace. While we're happy to see these builds being ran, we're seeing these builds inch a little too close to some of the high end builds with how much more simplified they are, and in some rare cases, they're outperforming a standard build. We're cutting down the damage bonus here ever so slightly in hopes that when you have Empower with a bunch of other Heavy Attack bonus sets, the numbers are still nice and juicy, but not as close to a full-on Light Attack build.

1. Top notch are players doing LA weaving, nearly like a maschine - they deserve their ranking
2- "Heavy Attack” players have fun and get their goals to easy (there has something to be done) (they need to sufer as we LA players did)
3. Tanks and healers are fine as supporters

I wish I could show ZOS my dislike, sadly I bought the new DLC.

So the developers of the game are elitists now themselves?

Sorry, but you should start to consider that you folks are the problem here, not the victims.

Most game development companies have hired players from the cream of the crop of the game itself or from the cream of the crop of other games to help develop them over the last couple decades.

As a result, most game development companies have a fair portion of their staff that at least in their day were elite.

If you look at ESO's design, I think it's pretty clear that ESO's developers lean towards being/having been elite and they struggle with developing content for people that aren't as skillful, knowledgeable, or as intelligent as they are.

I don’t see the point in what you’re saying here? I remember back when DLC was really hard for me and I’d get pugs where all of us are new and trying to figure out mechanics together. I still cleared dungeons, it was still fun. I had awful DPS at the time as well. The only problem I know of is DSR and RG HMs have very low completion rates because extremely high DPS checks.

Daoin

i guess if it were a yes/no question taking everthing into account from my own personal experience with the game and build and other things my own answer would be yes.

Dagoth_Rac

"Do cars with automatic transmissions deserve to be able to go 100 mph? Shouldn't that be reserved for the more interactive and challenging manual transmission drivers? The fact that I put more time and effort into learning to drive manual, and yet the automatic transmission is easier and just as good except for the highest tiers of competitive racing? Makes me feel bad!"

Braffin

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

"Do cars with automatic transmissions deserve to be able to go 100 mph? Shouldn't that be reserved for the more interactive and challenging manual transmission drivers? The fact that I put more time and effort into learning to drive manual, and yet the automatic transmission is easier and just as good except for the highest tiers of competitive racing? Makes me feel bad!"

Let's allow the participation of autopiloted tesla cars in racing then, if you really wanna compare something to sergeant broakensorc

Daoin

but...the fact i used to have to write and post mail, means when email came along and made things much easier i had start campaign against it ? or i just flowed with the times and enjoyed this upgrade to the communication system ? true my handwriting has gone worse but its a good trade off i think

Kirawolfe

It amazes me how much jealousy seems to play a part in the hatred towards HA builds.

Not that they're getting some decent dps - which helps folks with a disability related to their hands or reflexes enjoy the game.

But because it's easier to get this dps - which helps folks with a disability related to their hands or reflexes enjoy the game.

I would recommend that these folks go and do great things with their LA builds, and stop spending all of their emotional effort lamenting other people's gains.

That whole 'lift each other up' thing.

I'm glad Zos didn't halve the Empower buff, but the nerf still stings those who'd been enjoying more content with these builds.

Soarora

Daoin wrote: »

but...the fact i used to have to write and post mail, means when email came along and made things much easier i had start campaign against it ? or i just flowed with the times and enjoyed this upgrade to the communication system ? true my handwriting has gone worse but its a good trade off i think

These comparisons don’t work well. Most people use email and that is also a technological advancement. This is a matter of “why use a 2-bar weaving build when I can use a 1-bar 1-3 button build with more survivability and do the same thing?”. So, more like: I want to do a marathon for fun and glory after training for months. Should people using heelies or skateboards or roller blades that they’ve had for a week be allowed to run the marathon too? Note: while those untrained may fall behind with their wheels, those trained will go just as fast as those running but with less effort.

Fundamentally, there is no right answer. Both opinions on if that should be allowed or not is valid. It’s a matter of what the marathon owner decides. It’s up to ZOS. And I strongly agree that ZOS has the right vision here. Let HA be an option, don’t let it be on the same level as or even better than traditional builds in it’s current state (if it were 2-bar with it’s own 2-bar HA centric mythic I’d be okay with it). And yes, 100%, the meta HA build is overpowered. (P.S. 2-bar HA does less damage than 1-bar to my understanding, that’s pretty messed up).

Daoin

I love this HA build, alot of chat lately saying any changes will be hardly noticable anyway so all is well that ends well lets hope i also got a lot of head aches when i was writing every mail i had to then post and wait days to be delivered all on the up and up since the days of no email i guess. and the thing is for some damage wont matter i never feel as though im doing the same thing on 2 seperate characters anyway, damage is no concern there even though there is a notable difference to performance in groups of my characters since the HA build became a main stream topic my sorc which was once in the shadows is now and styles now like a main stream rapper which makes me happy, should hit me up in-game we go do some ease GD while its hot, any role me all classes, in mood for some HA tonight though ^^

PrincessOfThieves

Braffin wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

"Do cars with automatic transmissions deserve to be able to go 100 mph? Shouldn't that be reserved for the more interactive and challenging manual transmission drivers? The fact that I put more time and effort into learning to drive manual, and yet the automatic transmission is easier and just as good except for the highest tiers of competitive racing? Makes me feel bad!"

Let's allow the participation of autopiloted tesla cars in racing then, if you really wanna compare something to sergeant broakensorc

Or even better, let me bring a car to a running competition. I actually have a mild disability and cannot run so that would be only fair.