Do "Heavy Attack" builds deserve that high damage?

Zastrix

Daoin wrote: »

and the guy doing 72 dps ? less work for you too in ERE then ? or where you in competition with the group(or other player if infact you were 2 dps) and not the dungeon

And there we go, once again, an oakensorc defender just basically ignoring the rest of the arguments.

1. and the guy doing 72 dps ? it was a the start of a fight so 1 minute for dots to kick in and stuff, but you don't care to see that the 72k dps is still higher than non-oakensorcs, he was later #2 in the dps list.
2. less work for you too in ERE then ? or where you in competition with the group and not the dungeon and you completely ignore that non-oakensorcs DDs are saying that all of their work is for nought as someone who has an oakensorcs can just braindead content. With your logic I shouldn't complain if there's a build which just oneshots any form of ads or bosses as the competition is with the dungeon.

endgamesmug

I prefer dungeon content on 2
Bar, im familiar with this playstyle on various classes after years of repetition it suits me and in this case i especially like it for the move speed which i find to be essential for avoiding hazards/following mechs. I gave oakensoul a good go in various content, i found for me it did not give me what i required. It was boring sure, it was amusing sure, i can see why some need this sure, but it fails for me in the content i prefer - vet dlc. It slowed me down leaving me vulnerable to oneshot mechs and i have no interest in spending a bunch of time making it work despite it being some sort of winning recipe for some content. It seems to me that there are some heavy attack specialists that can really make it work wonders, its been interesting hearing people tell about what they have seen being done. It appears some people really care what effect this has on the community and that is absolutely their choice right? Im not on anyones side im just an observer, it seems very much like people exhibiting tribal like behavior protecting the philosophy of their endgame tribe as it were. Im not against 1bar or 2bar, if you are situationally aware and bring the necessary damage id be happy to do content with you.😀

Daoin

~ go HA sorc go HA sorc go ~ even with the cuts still gonna out dps alot of everyone that complained in the first place, only difference now knowing before they were so super it made others feel so bad they all had thier staffs shaved, unfortunately though this will make all random dungeons more of a pain again now even if just slighty in order to appease, and get a few more LA's thrown in, and having a good knowlege base of how randoms go i can truly say before or after HA nothing was or will be truly better just another sad delay on what needs to be done

TimeWizard

most people I see forming dungeon achievement groups require all DDs to be oaken HA builds

lets examine this

most of the time an oaken sorc will out dps a standard optimised build in a dungeon with any noticable mechanics, needed cleave, or incoming damage. I am a very good dps and will out dps most players in most content, but a standard dps build needs buffs and debuffs in order to do the high damage, oaken provides all. Oaken dps also have absurd survivability and sustain

when going with oaken dds there is no need to bring a healer to a dungeon. Just bring 3 oaken DDs and a tank and you are good.

I have an oaken sorc btw, I use it for a lot of solo *** and dungeon stuff because why wouldnt I? Its just better for farming and less coordinated groups. I'm not going for score so why should I sweat to complete an achievement or dungeon or area? When I could have a movie playing, hold down a button and use movement keys once in a while.

This hurts my soul. I started this game as a complete noob. Struggled to get better at every stage. Finally have reached a place where by most definitions I am "good" at this game.

BUT I STILL AM OUT CLASSED BY ONE BUTTON

endgamesmug

Nah people have been running 3dps one tank for ages before oaken arrived just makes sense if everybody knows what theyre doing/experienced.

Daoin

actually my HA build sorc is among the characters of dd's i have that i have no wish for achievment chasing with although i think accidentaly stumbled on one lately, rest are doing ok still rest been done tank/healer and completely different class of dd

maxjapank

TimeWizard wrote: »

When I could have a movie playing, hold down a button and use movement keys once in a while.

It's comments like these that shows that you don't play a HA build, even if you say you do. There is so much more involved than what you describe.

Soarora

endgamesmug wrote: »

Nah people have been running 3dps one tank for ages before oaken arrived just makes sense if everybody knows what theyre doing/experienced.

This is true however in the case of usual 3dps you can use whatever build you so please. Now it’s 3 oakensorc or at least oakenHA. Also, now it extends into more content and groups due to oaken survivability and matriarch healing.

endgamesmug

Soarora wrote: »

endgamesmug wrote: »

Nah people have been running 3dps one tank for ages before oaken arrived just makes sense if everybody knows what theyre doing/experienced.

This is true however in the case of usual 3dps you can use whatever build you so please. Now it’s 3 oakensorc or at least oakenHA. Also, now it extends into more content and groups due to oaken survivability and matriarch healing.

Good for you if that recipe works for you, it wont ever for me its faulty for me

Braffin

Soarora wrote: »

endgamesmug wrote: »

Nah people have been running 3dps one tank for ages before oaken arrived just makes sense if everybody knows what theyre doing/experienced.

This is true however in the case of usual 3dps you can use whatever build you so please. Now it’s 3 oakensorc or at least oakenHA. Also, now it extends into more content and groups due to oaken survivability and matriarch healing.

Is it that bad on pc na? On pc eu we still can bypass them for running dungeons, still enough sane players around.

Or maybe it's just me, as I indeed refuse to participate in anything involving sergeant brokensoul, just because you get people like we meet in this thread 90% (ok maybe 80%) of the time, which are outright refusing to listen to reason.

That may be quite funny here in the forums (especially if you like to play bashing the troll), but in actual content not so much.

colossalvoids

maxjapank wrote: »

TimeWizard wrote: »

When I could have a movie playing, hold down a button and use movement keys once in a while.

It's comments like these that shows that you don't play a HA build, even if you say you do. There is so much more involved than what you describe.

Yeah, it's all just just a big conspiracy against ha players, right.

Wording people are using can be an exaggeration at times, but in essence it feels exactly like that after playing on more-less high level on a dynamic la build and then going for your trifecta in oaken setup. People were fine with damage spikes when it was something new but skillful like dot patch, bashweave, flanking, bahsei micromanagement etc. But when objectively less skillful and more safe gameplay option takes and swallows whole midgame whilst being absolutely great in endgame it's kinda an issue? Talking only about competetive space, can't care less if those would be just in overland and normal content, which doesn't affect anyone's enjoyment and goals.

I'm not on a crusade btw, that's just things people can't ignore when the topic proceeds. No one is here to delete anyone's playstyle, but there should be a solution of sorts instead of salt mines. Like make ha builds capable of la DPS caps but making them actually engaging and having it's drawbacks, like no ha resource return and work from that. It shouldn't affect lower skilled players though so they can still have full pools whilst doing okay amount of damage, so that's on Devs to balance out.

Soarora

endgamesmug wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

endgamesmug wrote: »

Nah people have been running 3dps one tank for ages before oaken arrived just makes sense if everybody knows what theyre doing/experienced.

This is true however in the case of usual 3dps you can use whatever build you so please. Now it’s 3 oakensorc or at least oakenHA. Also, now it extends into more content and groups due to oaken survivability and matriarch healing.

Good for you if that recipe works for you, it wont ever for me its faulty for me

It's not a matter of it working for me, I don't set up my runs like that. It's just what I see. "Lf 1 healer or 1 oakensorc" or "lf 2 oakensorc".

Braffin wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

endgamesmug wrote: »

Nah people have been running 3dps one tank for ages before oaken arrived just makes sense if everybody knows what theyre doing/experienced.

This is true however in the case of usual 3dps you can use whatever build you so please. Now it’s 3 oakensorc or at least oakenHA. Also, now it extends into more content and groups due to oaken survivability and matriarch healing.

Is it that bad on pc na? On pc eu we still can bypass them for running dungeons, still enough sane players around.

Or maybe it's just me, as I indeed refuse to participate in anything involving sergeant brokensoul, just because you get people like we meet in this thread 90% (ok maybe 80%) of the time, which are outright refusing to listen to reason.

That may be quite funny here in the forums (especially if you like to play bashing the troll), but in actual content not so much.

There are a few normal 3dps runs left but I indeed cannot avoid oakenHA. Every pug, every guild run trial or dungeon, for the past few months... there is an oakenHA. Avoiding oakenHA would mean never doing content again except dungeons with people I know intimately. So, I don't let random peoples build choices bother me. I care about when it's a requirement to join groups or when people who typically use traditional builds are using oakenHA for its ease and survivability. (Edit: because those are the people complaining about it being so strong and I can't take the complaints anymore)

endgamesmug

Soarora wrote: »

endgamesmug wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

endgamesmug wrote: »

Nah people have been running 3dps one tank for ages before oaken arrived just makes sense if everybody knows what theyre doing/experienced.

This is true however in the case of usual 3dps you can use whatever build you so please. Now it’s 3 oakensorc or at least oakenHA. Also, now it extends into more content and groups due to oaken survivability and matriarch healing.

Good for you if that recipe works for you, it wont ever for me its faulty for me

It's not a matter of it working for me, I don't set up my runs like that. It's just what I see. "Lf 1 healer or 1 oakensorc" or "lf 2 oakensorc".

Braffin wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

endgamesmug wrote: »

Nah people have been running 3dps one tank for ages before oaken arrived just makes sense if everybody knows what theyre doing/experienced.

This is true however in the case of usual 3dps you can use whatever build you so please. Now it’s 3 oakensorc or at least oakenHA. Also, now it extends into more content and groups due to oaken survivability and matriarch healing.

Is it that bad on pc na? On pc eu we still can bypass them for running dungeons, still enough sane players around.

Or maybe it's just me, as I indeed refuse to participate in anything involving sergeant brokensoul, just because you get people like we meet in this thread 90% (ok maybe 80%) of the time, which are outright refusing to listen to reason.

That may be quite funny here in the forums (especially if you like to play bashing the troll), but in actual content not so much.

There are a few normal 3dps runs left but I indeed cannot avoid oakenHA. Every pug, every guild run trial or dungeon, for the past few months... there is an oakenHA. Avoiding oakenHA would mean never doing content again except dungeons with people I know intimately. So, I don't let random peoples build choices bother me. I care about when it's a requirement to join groups or when people who typically use traditional builds are using oakenHA for its ease and survivability. (Edit: because those are the people complaining about it being so strong and I can't take the complaints anymore)

It really does sound like youre having a bad time of it, it paints a bit of a sad picture of pve guilds in this game. I understand its a solution for some players, but it just seems like something that will encourage dysfunctional behaviour in a dungeon expecting to facetank everything and not looking where youre standing. A block to personal progression in the end, sad times.

Braffin

endgamesmug wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

endgamesmug wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

endgamesmug wrote: »

Nah people have been running 3dps one tank for ages before oaken arrived just makes sense if everybody knows what theyre doing/experienced.

This is true however in the case of usual 3dps you can use whatever build you so please. Now it’s 3 oakensorc or at least oakenHA. Also, now it extends into more content and groups due to oaken survivability and matriarch healing.

Good for you if that recipe works for you, it wont ever for me its faulty for me

It's not a matter of it working for me, I don't set up my runs like that. It's just what I see. "Lf 1 healer or 1 oakensorc" or "lf 2 oakensorc".

Braffin wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

endgamesmug wrote: »

Nah people have been running 3dps one tank for ages before oaken arrived just makes sense if everybody knows what theyre doing/experienced.

This is true however in the case of usual 3dps you can use whatever build you so please. Now it’s 3 oakensorc or at least oakenHA. Also, now it extends into more content and groups due to oaken survivability and matriarch healing.

Is it that bad on pc na? On pc eu we still can bypass them for running dungeons, still enough sane players around.

Or maybe it's just me, as I indeed refuse to participate in anything involving sergeant brokensoul, just because you get people like we meet in this thread 90% (ok maybe 80%) of the time, which are outright refusing to listen to reason.

That may be quite funny here in the forums (especially if you like to play bashing the troll), but in actual content not so much.

There are a few normal 3dps runs left but I indeed cannot avoid oakenHA. Every pug, every guild run trial or dungeon, for the past few months... there is an oakenHA. Avoiding oakenHA would mean never doing content again except dungeons with people I know intimately. So, I don't let random peoples build choices bother me. I care about when it's a requirement to join groups or when people who typically use traditional builds are using oakenHA for its ease and survivability. (Edit: because those are the people complaining about it being so strong and I can't take the complaints anymore)

It really does sound like youre having a bad time of it, it paints a bit of a sad picture of pve guilds in this game. I understand its a solution for some players, but it just seems like something that will encourage dysfunctional behaviour in a dungeon expecting to facetank everything and not looking where youre standing. A block to personal progression in the end, sad times.

You're completely right here.

But hasn't it been this way in eso almost since the beginning? A lot of people always will go for the easiest solution to get the shiny reward at the end of content (whatever they get out of it. I never was happy "achieving" something I didn't work for.).

For years these folks are trying to skip mechanics they don't understand by bringing enough dps (I'm not against nuking tho. It's just a major difference if you nuke something you could play the intended way or if you're forced to nuke to pass the encounter.), using some "cheesy" build (sergeant brokensoul is just last, and till now worst, iteration of these attempts) or outright exploiting whatever they can (vCR comes in mind or years ago the "idea" of stacking in a corner in vAS+2 so bosses couldn't target you).

They may pat themselves on their shoulders as much as they want for all of that, in the end they're only blocking themselves in a indeed very harmful way, just as you say.

Nonetheless, I don't think the PvE community is as bad as it seems, at least on pc eu. It's just so, that almost all guilds which are playing the "intended" way became quite restrictive when picking potential members, not out of gatekeeping but to preserve their playstyle and protect their members.
Years ago I critizised this pattern, as I always tried to be open-minded and helpful if new interested players were at least willing to learn. Well, that didn't work too well. Approximately 8 out of 10 players which were applying for core raiding teams already knew better "how to do it" than experienced raidleads.

Drako_Ei

HA builds still need a nerf.

Not on the DPS but the tankyness.

Its absurd that I can solo fang lair hardmode and scalecaller hard mode while watching series on my second screen

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

We have removed some insulting back and forth that was disruptive. Please ensure you are treating others with respect on the forums even when they have views that differ from your own.

Thank you for your understanding.

Daoin

anyone bothered doing anything with thier HA sorc character since update went live ? eager to get some feedback please

Ragnarok0130

Daoin wrote: »

anyone bothered doing anything with thier HA sorc character since update went live ? eager to get some feedback please

I ran and cleared vSE last night with my Oakensorc and didn’t see much difference in performance. There was a 1-3% reduction in DPS at times that I noticed but that could have been due to many factors such as doing a blind run of a new trial while not knowing the mechs and not just the recent nerfs to the build. It honestly felt on par with the pre-patch performance like people predicted.

Kusto

Daoin wrote: »

anyone bothered doing anything with thier HA sorc character since update went live ? eager to get some feedback please

Craglorn pugs are clearing the new trial on vet, on day one. Has this ever happened before? No. Even some of the easier vet dlc trials like vSS didn't get cleared by most guild runs for weeks after release. While vSE is among the easiest now, its still insane that bunch of randoms, not even in voice, just hold down 1 button and clear. We had 5 oakensorcs in my first run and they were ALL the top DDs. Poor 2 bar builds, especially melee were behind every boss fight and trash pull and died alot thanks to the insane amount of aoes in that trial. No, you can't stand in aoes with oaken HA build but you have way more time to get out of it thanks to high hp and almost tank level resists. The melee players would have out parsed me on a dummy or some static fight but how many dungeon or trial bosses can you just burn by standing still? Very few, mostly base game and older ones. All new content requires alot of movement and target switching. Oaken HA reaches its max dps output immediately while 2 bar needs good 10 sec. But by then boss moves/teleports again or you need to focus some add, do portal etc.
I parse over 100k with 2 bar builds but I'm still gonna use OakenHA in content despite the small nerf because it just outperforms STILL.

notsojuicy

played the new vet trial today on a NB Pillager Heal in a pug - however as i like pugging and not beeing in progressions guilds, i think it's fine the we don't got another vDSR where you barely find pugs as the mechanics are way more demanding or lets say need to be coordinated vs the mechanics in vet sanitys edge.

I think for the broad community, standing in crag and not beeing in progression guilds this is fine.

There were a bunch of HA DD's in there, i don't mind 'em....
If a trial is new and the experience of trash pulls and so fore is not there, yet

i think it's pretty smart to go with an Oaken Build, as tri-focus will carry your AOE and you're very tanky.
Ofc in a coordinated group with good knowledge of the content, 2 bar will outperform oaken any day... but that's more of the fact that stacking has to be tight on trash pulls and group support in general has to be coordinated and strong....
something which you won't find in pugs at this stage on the new trial

boi_anachronism_

Ok. Im endgame. I primary play a magblade that i have spent an insane amount of time dedicated to making him a hard hitting 2 bar build and viable in content. I, like many folks in my circles also have oakensorcs for causual fun runs. The issue is this. Ha has much more consistent damage in content then a lot of 2 bar builds, for the player hitting 90k-100k- im sorry to tell you that oaken sorc will outpace you. At a scorepushing level, yeah they use 2 bar but these are also folks that clear vashm in 3:30 mins flat. They have perfect rotations and hit 130k, they are the .001%. Ha sorcs can hit from huge distances so they dont have to be as mobile, they have infinate sustain where other builds must be ever consious of this. Sure i can hit 111k on a melee build but most folks dont use that build in content because range is king. In general ranged 2 bar hits about 10k less on a dummy so in content you might get 70-80k. If an enemy teleports im going to lose damage where as in most cases ha can still hit them. I can hit olms while he is jumping in vas with ha, continually. Melee builds cant even though they hit harder. More attacks landing=equals more damage. I mean when i beat vas on my blade it was freaking hard. With my sorc its been really fun but frankly a walk in the park. When i beat vbrp my buddies used oaken. I did it with my blade (and i got made fun of because they said i was actually making it more difficult for them as well) and again, much more difficult. I then run it with 3 sorcs and a good tank. It was a joke. I find it really questionable that my blade is out paced by this build (and it is). You might hit 110,00p odd dps on a dummy but thats going to translate to probably 90k in content if you run the same build as on the dummy, if that where as with sorcs you can expect them to hit pretty close to what they parse. The fact is when it comes to parses, sure 2 bar dios better but in content? 95% of the time sorcs will do better. Fact.

So do i have an answer to this? No but do i see a problem? Yeah.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

I would be angry if they ever nerf ha build into uselessness just becuse some player dont like that disable people are after nearly a decade finaly able to participate in content. I damaged my hand in an accidentwhen i was a kid and it never came back to 100%, before oakensoul by best ever dps on a trial dummy was 56k on a dk, Now its about 93k.

But yeah right according to some of you guys i shouldnt be able to participate in content due to this.

ADarklore

One of my biggest problems with some players, is that they want to feel that they're "special"... and that 'because I play this way, anyone who plays different shouldn't be as good as me' mindset.

At the end of the day, this is a GAME, played for ENJOYMENT... and I don't think the competitive type of mindset should be making these type of decisions for a game that is focused more on casual entertainment.

IMO, I think ZOS made their opinion very clear to the competitive types, that by not nerfing the HA builds very much by only slightly reducing Empower, ZOS considers HA builds pretty much fine as is. They also experienced a huge backlash by the disabled community for even doing that, so I think they'd have an even bigger firestorm on their hands if they nerfed HA builds or even Oakensoul any further.

Ragnarok0130

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

I would be angry if they ever nerf ha build into uselessness just becuse some player dont like that disable people are after nearly a decade finaly able to participate in content. I damaged my hand in an accidentwhen i was a kid and it never came back to 100%, before oakensoul by best ever dps on a trial dummy was 56k on a dk, Now its about 93k.

But yeah right according to some of you guys i shouldnt be able to participate in content due to this.

Please drop the strawman argument and the hyperbole, nobody is criticizing HA builds because they dislike disabled people nor are they asking for the build to be useless. People are asking for balance. The devs themselves said in the patch notes that the build is hitting too close to a complicated 2 bar rotation for the minimal amount of effort required so they adjusted it. After playing my Oakensorc and clearing vSE on day 1 with it, the small adjustments the devs made had almost zero impact on my performance in actual group content.

ZOS_Kraken

Hello,

Be sure when posting to keep the forums a civil and constructive platform for the game and its community as a whole.

Zos_Kraken

Rkindaleft

IT'S NOT ABOUT GATEKEEPING OR THE INACCESSIBILITY OF DPS TO DISABLED PEOPLE.

I will repeat.

IT'S NOT ABOUT GATEKEEPING OR THE INACCESSIBILITY OF DPS TO DISABLED PEOPLE.

The reason why the build got a nerf is because it was frankly OP af. Like 90% of progression/endgame players picked up this build in some form because it gave you more than enough DPS to clear anything in the game with almost double the resistances and 5k more health and for like 5% of the rotation effort compared to a LA build.

The nerf isn't even major. Replace Storm Master with Noble Duelist and after the Empower nerf people are reporting that they lost like 3k DPS. Your DPS might even go up slightly in dungeons or un-optimized trials because now you have the 5k+ additional penetration of light armor again. HA players should be happy that they got a very small nerf instead of the usual sledgehammer approach. Remember U35 where those top LA builds lost like 25% of their total DPS?

Arcanasx

Rkindaleft wrote: »

Remember U35 where those top LA builds lost like 25% of their total DPS?

I also remember when it was initially being celebrated at the time by the players who would eventually throw a tantrum over a small 3-6% nerf.

Braffin

Arcanasx wrote: »

Rkindaleft wrote: »

Remember U35 where those top LA builds lost like 25% of their total DPS?

I also remember when it was initially being celebrated at the time by the players who would eventually throw a tantrum over a small 3-6% nerf.

Yeah, can't wait for them raging as soon as the real "nerfs" come in, especially to sergeant's mail

Daoin

guys sorry for the bad news...just sit your HA build chat down now its over and done with a nerf that could make the best dps player in eso happy, outome equals is it's still an good build but nobody is interested because necrom is here

Arcanasx

Braffin wrote: »

Arcanasx wrote: »

Rkindaleft wrote: »

Remember U35 where those top LA builds lost like 25% of their total DPS?

I also remember when it was initially being celebrated at the time by the players who would eventually throw a tantrum over a small 3-6% nerf.

Yeah, can't wait for them raging as soon as the real "nerfs" come in, especially to sergeant's mail

Maybe they'll rework it in a way that lowers its potency with lightning staves while improving its performance with other weapon types somewhat; so there isn't as much of an effectiveness gap. After all, that could maybe make things more...accessible.

I'm sure the LMB lightning staff enjoyers would totally be sympathetic and wouldn't mind sacrificing some of their well-earned power if it meant that they could empower those who prefer to use a different weapon; as it would be in the name of accessibility too!