The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
Maintenance for the week of April 29:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 29
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 29
Thoughts of a Random Guy on Necrom Changes to HA / Heavy-Attack builds & on Arcanist
loveeso
✭✭✭✭
Although my annual subscription has just been automatically renewed, after reviewing the recent patch notes and testing things on the PTS, I have come to the conclusion that it's time for me to move on and explore new options. While I appreciate the time I've spent with this game, I've decided that this will be my last payment and that I will not be purchasing the new expansion. I wanted to share these thoughts in case they're of interest to anyone.
Arcanist
I was initially excited about the Arcanist class after seeing it in official videos, but after trying it out myself, I can't help but feel disappointed. While I understand that aesthetics are subjective, in my personal opinion, the Arcanist looks kitschy compared to the other classes. The animations also feel clunky and lack inspiration, which makes it hard for me to fully enjoy playing it. Of course, everyone's experience may vary, so if you've tried it and found it enjoyable, I'm happy for you.
Heavy-Attack / HA builds
Even though I could do 120k (I know that there are people who do more, not bragging, there is nothing to brag about, just providing context), I loved the positive changes that ZOS introduced when they made HA viable again.
The improvements rekindled interest in the game among many players, and it felt like there were more ESO enthusiasts ready to take on HM trials and dungeons. Our guild became more active and grew, which was fantastic to see. The changes also allowed for more variety in playstyle, providing two viable setups instead of everyone using the same one. This was a refreshing change that fit sorcerers well and looked impressive visually and in terms of RPG elements. I felt that ZOS had finally materialized their 'Play The Way You Want' philosophy, which is something so many of us were excited about.
I embraced the new HA playstyle and went ahead to get the gear and set up my HA builds (incl. some two-bar HA builds that offer more DPS while maintaining all the main benefits to Oakensoul builds). Now, when I want to push myself, I can bring my two-bar meta and do 30% to 50% more damage (depending on my setup). But when I want to relax and enjoy the game, I can switch to my HA toon and still be of help to my team.
In addition, I've had the pleasure of meeting many players with disabilities who were grateful that ZOS has made the game more inclusive. These players are not inferior to those of us who can achieve 130k+ DPS. In fact, many of them excel in areas such as situational awareness, reflexes, strategic and tactical thinking, and mechanics. However, some of them are held back by the enforced LA-weaving paradigm, which can be challenging for players with disabilities. The LA meta is also considered by some to be an exploit rather than a feature, producing unRPG-like jerky movements that can break a player's immersion in the game.
Personally, I don't have any disabilities (yet), but I do believe that treating disabled players as second-class citizens is inappropriate. Here is a comment that I just saw which says it quite well:
“… as a disabled veteran who can finally do endgame content i have to say this sets a bad precedent. their statement to me sounds like them saying they don't want me to be able to do as well as the nondisabled players. I already have to work around my disability, having to work around a system designed by people who don't want me to succeed just doesn't sound very fun to me, and nerfs like this are often followed by further nerfs“
I've noticed that many skilled players in the game have also welcomed the positive changes to HA builds. The decision to make these builds viable while still maintaining a 30-50% DPS difference (depending on the build) was a brilliant move by ZOS. It brought new life into the game and increased the number of ESO players interested in running HM trials and dungeons. Our guilds became more active, and we finally had some build diversity instead of everyone using the same setup. HA builds looked visually stunning and fit sorcerers well, allowing them to perform well in HM trials and dungeons (even without pets
).
However, I'm disappointed to see that ZOS is trying to undo all the good they've done in the last few months. It's unclear why they are doing this.
[snip]
Is it because of PvP? Same as in PvE, where the best HA build has no chance to beat the best LA build which will do at least 30% more damage, the best PvP players just obliterate the best HA players. Only the low- to mid-tier players will complain (and only those of them who like complaining or have an unhealthy relationship with the game and forget that it is just a game).
Instead of constantly causing problems for the PvE community by attempting to "balance" PvP, ZOS could take a simple approach. They could download GW2 and replicate how structured PvP (sPvP) is handled in that game. In sPvP, every level-1 character receives maximum level, all skills, and a broad range of standardized gear - all for free. No other gear can be used, but players can still customize their setups and easily switch builds with just one click between fights. This would solve the problem once and for all.
Based on my tests on the PTS, I found that the recent nerfs to Storm Master and Empower have a significant impact on DPS in real content. The duration of Storm Master has been reduced from 20 seconds to 8 seconds, and Empower has been nerfed by 12.5% (from 80% to 70%). As a result, there is a 15-20% decrease in DPS on average. Even on a trial dummy, the DPS loss is around 10-15%.
Furthermore, both Storm Master and Infallible Mage no longer work in PvP. On the dummy, you can only achieve around 86% uptime of Storm Master, and in real content, it's much worse.
I had hope, but I am truly disappointed by the recent reversal of positive changes in the game over the last few months. A couple of base-game dungeon sets, such as Storm Master, finally had some use, but now they have been nerfed. We had finally found an alternative playstyle that, while weaker, was still viable, and it encouraged more players to become active and participate in trials and hard modes using HA builds. This made the game more inclusive towards people with disabilities. But now, these changes are being reversed, and it's a really sad situation.
UPDATES
The majority of comments on this topic are insightful but there are some that either wonder off-topic or contain very inaccurate information that conflicts with the facts, like that the maximum DPS loss for people enjoying the HA-playstyle "should be" no more than 6% (not true); or that Empower nerf is not 12.5% but 10% (it is 12.5%). To help those interested or just joining this discussion filter out the noise, I have decided to add links to posts correcting some of the inaccuracies or containing summaries of what has been said so that you don't have to read hundreds of posts to get a clear picture. Think about it as TOC.
Apr 20 - Test Data and Results
link: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7854085/#Comment_7854085
Apr 20 - A reply pointing out some mistakes in a post that unsuccessfully attempts to contradict our test results
link: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7854393/#Comment_7854393
Apr 24 - Here is a comprehensive summary of the whole discussion (and more!) till Apr 24 (if you don’t have time to read 1000 pages)
link: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7857529/#Comment_7857529
Apr 28 - check out my One-Skill Light-Attack God - you can do vDSR HM and trifectas with it!
To see the build and more, please read the following post:
Debunking the Anti-HA Propagandist Video: Examining the Truth Behind Light & Heavy Attack Builds
link: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7860932/#Comment_7860932
May 9 - Recap of Anti-HA Rhetoric
link: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705
May 11 - A demonstration of a simple two-bar LA build that, while being as tanky as any Oakensoul build and having no sustain problems whatsoever, can achieve up to 20% more DPS than the best Lightning Oakensoul Sorcerer in the world. It is a practical illustration of what I have written in my post from May 9 (see above)
link: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7869559/#Comment_7869559
May 12 - Stop the HA Hate: How Actual Fight Data Shows the Truth About Playstyle Balance - Don't Nerf, Just Improve Your LA Skills to Win
link: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7870041/#Comment_7870041
The End & Summary
This is the end of this thread for me. If you haven’t read it yet, please feel free to use the links above to see all the data and make up your mind. What follows is a short summary (mainly, of what I have noticed since I first posted here).
As a DD, I mainly play LA melee (been melee even before it was meta - I just like it). I do 120k+. When I want to chill, I also like using HA. I tank. In general, I consider ESO and it’s end-game to be quite easy. I played all TES games starting from Daggerfall. I am a scientist in real life so I like objectivity and data. I play games to have a blast and connect with awesome folks, not to "dominate" (see below). I think of in-game "achievements" as a fun little bonus, but definitely not something to boast about, especially in non-solo/co-op games
! It's not healthy to rely on games to make up for lacking real-life achievements and ZOS should seriously revamp the game to support their players' well-being. If they don’t take action, I can't help but sense a potential class-action lawsuit brewing on the horizon. Also: crates and gambling
I have set up tests, created builds, and in general collated and published quite a lot of data from different sources - such as ESOLOGS, parses, and so on. Those who are hell-bent on nerfing HA would either just ignore them, cherry-pick, or (in case of LA builds and despite my simulating sloppy weaves with missed attacks and/or sustain problems) claim that I was a master at weaving and was trying to cheat everyone into thinking that LA builds can be as tanky and as easy as HA builds while doing more damage. What makes this even more funny, others who did not see those because they did not bother to check out what's written in the threads they decided to comment in, were accusing me of being a noob who should learn how to weave instead of whining. I honestly hesitate to call la-weaving a skill, it's more like learning a super simple rhythm and takes just a few hours at most to master. No idea why so many fixate on it.
So yeah, I stopped, wasting 15 or more minutes each time to create an example build and do a parse because it has proven to be a complete waste of time. You cannot make people see what they try really, really hard not to see.
When I decided to stop wasting time on making builds and parses, I also decided to stop wasting time on posting nicely written comments for which I was accually accused of being an AI.
All the above and the tone used by the vocal nerf-everything-that-is-not-LA minority revealed a deep problem that plagues the ESO community. There is a very unhealthy obsession over other people's DPS and who's, I quote, “dominating”. This makes some people upset when they should instead just be happy that they have teammates who can complete trials with them. Outside of PvP, I've never seen this crazy obsession with how other people achieve their DPS in any other MMOs I've played. Off the top of my head, games like Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, World of Warcraft, and Warframe never had players criticising each other's DPS methods. Never seen it in my life. As long as you're doing mechanics and putting out enough DPS, everyone's satisfied. What's wrong with ESO? Stop this madness!
I have provided enough data in this and the other thread to make it clear to anyone who does not choose to be blind to facts what the truth on this matter is. As I mentioned at the beginning in my main thread (i.e. this one), it is highly unlikely that I will extend my ESO+ or buy the expansion. I am trying to distance myself from ESO. Since I pay annually, I am sure I will still be doing stuff in game for the next few months. The friends from my guilds who lurk here and followed my posts also told me that despite being super polite and rational in what I wrote, and despite focusing on data and objectively verifiable facts, I was clearly being reported and my posts were snipped left and right (for baiting & conspiracy theories (?!)) while the anti-HA crowd was allowed free rein and engaged in whatever misinformation campaign and patronising trolling they wanted, (e.g. accusing others of lying about their disabilities, of being cowards (?!) etc.) so I don't think it makes any sense for me to spend any serious time and effort on this topic anymore. Everything that should be said has been said. We will see if ZOS will make a rational and fair decision. If not, well, you've made your bed, now lie in it...
So, if you see that I am not replying to a post that attacks what I wrote (or HA builds in general), it is most likely that 1. I am either no longer here 2. or the person who posted it is blocked because their previous posts proved that they were being so biased in what they wrote (which replies they ignored, how much they cherry-picked and so on) that I was forced to conclude any further discussion with them would be unreasonable and just a terrible waste of time.
The End
[edited for conspiracy theories]
Edited by ZOS_Volpe on June 28, 2023 5:14PM Arcanist
I was initially excited about the Arcanist class after seeing it in official videos, but after trying it out myself, I can't help but feel disappointed. While I understand that aesthetics are subjective, in my personal opinion, the Arcanist looks kitschy compared to the other classes. The animations also feel clunky and lack inspiration, which makes it hard for me to fully enjoy playing it. Of course, everyone's experience may vary, so if you've tried it and found it enjoyable, I'm happy for you.
Heavy-Attack / HA builds
Even though I could do 120k (I know that there are people who do more, not bragging, there is nothing to brag about, just providing context), I loved the positive changes that ZOS introduced when they made HA viable again.
The improvements rekindled interest in the game among many players, and it felt like there were more ESO enthusiasts ready to take on HM trials and dungeons. Our guild became more active and grew, which was fantastic to see. The changes also allowed for more variety in playstyle, providing two viable setups instead of everyone using the same one. This was a refreshing change that fit sorcerers well and looked impressive visually and in terms of RPG elements. I felt that ZOS had finally materialized their 'Play The Way You Want' philosophy, which is something so many of us were excited about.
I embraced the new HA playstyle and went ahead to get the gear and set up my HA builds (incl. some two-bar HA builds that offer more DPS while maintaining all the main benefits to Oakensoul builds). Now, when I want to push myself, I can bring my two-bar meta and do 30% to 50% more damage (depending on my setup). But when I want to relax and enjoy the game, I can switch to my HA toon and still be of help to my team.
In addition, I've had the pleasure of meeting many players with disabilities who were grateful that ZOS has made the game more inclusive. These players are not inferior to those of us who can achieve 130k+ DPS. In fact, many of them excel in areas such as situational awareness, reflexes, strategic and tactical thinking, and mechanics. However, some of them are held back by the enforced LA-weaving paradigm, which can be challenging for players with disabilities. The LA meta is also considered by some to be an exploit rather than a feature, producing unRPG-like jerky movements that can break a player's immersion in the game.
Personally, I don't have any disabilities (yet), but I do believe that treating disabled players as second-class citizens is inappropriate. Here is a comment that I just saw which says it quite well:
“… as a disabled veteran who can finally do endgame content i have to say this sets a bad precedent. their statement to me sounds like them saying they don't want me to be able to do as well as the nondisabled players. I already have to work around my disability, having to work around a system designed by people who don't want me to succeed just doesn't sound very fun to me, and nerfs like this are often followed by further nerfs“
I've noticed that many skilled players in the game have also welcomed the positive changes to HA builds. The decision to make these builds viable while still maintaining a 30-50% DPS difference (depending on the build) was a brilliant move by ZOS. It brought new life into the game and increased the number of ESO players interested in running HM trials and dungeons. Our guilds became more active, and we finally had some build diversity instead of everyone using the same setup. HA builds looked visually stunning and fit sorcerers well, allowing them to perform well in HM trials and dungeons (even without pets
).However, I'm disappointed to see that ZOS is trying to undo all the good they've done in the last few months. It's unclear why they are doing this.
[snip]
Is it because of PvP? Same as in PvE, where the best HA build has no chance to beat the best LA build which will do at least 30% more damage, the best PvP players just obliterate the best HA players. Only the low- to mid-tier players will complain (and only those of them who like complaining or have an unhealthy relationship with the game and forget that it is just a game).
Instead of constantly causing problems for the PvE community by attempting to "balance" PvP, ZOS could take a simple approach. They could download GW2 and replicate how structured PvP (sPvP) is handled in that game. In sPvP, every level-1 character receives maximum level, all skills, and a broad range of standardized gear - all for free. No other gear can be used, but players can still customize their setups and easily switch builds with just one click between fights. This would solve the problem once and for all.
Based on my tests on the PTS, I found that the recent nerfs to Storm Master and Empower have a significant impact on DPS in real content. The duration of Storm Master has been reduced from 20 seconds to 8 seconds, and Empower has been nerfed by 12.5% (from 80% to 70%). As a result, there is a 15-20% decrease in DPS on average. Even on a trial dummy, the DPS loss is around 10-15%.
Furthermore, both Storm Master and Infallible Mage no longer work in PvP. On the dummy, you can only achieve around 86% uptime of Storm Master, and in real content, it's much worse.
I had hope, but I am truly disappointed by the recent reversal of positive changes in the game over the last few months. A couple of base-game dungeon sets, such as Storm Master, finally had some use, but now they have been nerfed. We had finally found an alternative playstyle that, while weaker, was still viable, and it encouraged more players to become active and participate in trials and hard modes using HA builds. This made the game more inclusive towards people with disabilities. But now, these changes are being reversed, and it's a really sad situation.
UPDATES
The majority of comments on this topic are insightful but there are some that either wonder off-topic or contain very inaccurate information that conflicts with the facts, like that the maximum DPS loss for people enjoying the HA-playstyle "should be" no more than 6% (not true); or that Empower nerf is not 12.5% but 10% (it is 12.5%). To help those interested or just joining this discussion filter out the noise, I have decided to add links to posts correcting some of the inaccuracies or containing summaries of what has been said so that you don't have to read hundreds of posts to get a clear picture. Think about it as TOC.
Apr 20 - Test Data and Results
link: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7854085/#Comment_7854085
Apr 20 - A reply pointing out some mistakes in a post that unsuccessfully attempts to contradict our test results
link: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7854393/#Comment_7854393
Apr 24 - Here is a comprehensive summary of the whole discussion (and more!) till Apr 24 (if you don’t have time to read 1000 pages)
link: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7857529/#Comment_7857529
Apr 28 - check out my One-Skill Light-Attack God - you can do vDSR HM and trifectas with it!
To see the build and more, please read the following post:
Debunking the Anti-HA Propagandist Video: Examining the Truth Behind Light & Heavy Attack Builds
link: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7860932/#Comment_7860932
May 9 - Recap of Anti-HA Rhetoric
link: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705
May 11 - A demonstration of a simple two-bar LA build that, while being as tanky as any Oakensoul build and having no sustain problems whatsoever, can achieve up to 20% more DPS than the best Lightning Oakensoul Sorcerer in the world. It is a practical illustration of what I have written in my post from May 9 (see above)
link: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7869559/#Comment_7869559
May 12 - Stop the HA Hate: How Actual Fight Data Shows the Truth About Playstyle Balance - Don't Nerf, Just Improve Your LA Skills to Win
link: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7870041/#Comment_7870041
The End & Summary
This is the end of this thread for me. If you haven’t read it yet, please feel free to use the links above to see all the data and make up your mind. What follows is a short summary (mainly, of what I have noticed since I first posted here).
As a DD, I mainly play LA melee (been melee even before it was meta - I just like it). I do 120k+. When I want to chill, I also like using HA. I tank. In general, I consider ESO and it’s end-game to be quite easy. I played all TES games starting from Daggerfall. I am a scientist in real life so I like objectivity and data. I play games to have a blast and connect with awesome folks, not to "dominate" (see below). I think of in-game "achievements" as a fun little bonus, but definitely not something to boast about, especially in non-solo/co-op games
! It's not healthy to rely on games to make up for lacking real-life achievements and ZOS should seriously revamp the game to support their players' well-being. If they don’t take action, I can't help but sense a potential class-action lawsuit brewing on the horizon. Also: crates and gambling I have set up tests, created builds, and in general collated and published quite a lot of data from different sources - such as ESOLOGS, parses, and so on. Those who are hell-bent on nerfing HA would either just ignore them, cherry-pick, or (in case of LA builds and despite my simulating sloppy weaves with missed attacks and/or sustain problems) claim that I was a master at weaving and was trying to cheat everyone into thinking that LA builds can be as tanky and as easy as HA builds while doing more damage. What makes this even more funny, others who did not see those because they did not bother to check out what's written in the threads they decided to comment in, were accusing me of being a noob who should learn how to weave instead of whining
. I honestly hesitate to call la-weaving a skill, it's more like learning a super simple rhythm and takes just a few hours at most to master. No idea why so many fixate on it.So yeah, I stopped, wasting 15 or more minutes each time to create an example build and do a parse because it has proven to be a complete waste of time. You cannot make people see what they try really, really hard not to see.
When I decided to stop wasting time on making builds and parses, I also decided to stop wasting time on posting nicely written comments for which I was accually accused of being an AI
.All the above and the tone used by the vocal nerf-everything-that-is-not-LA minority revealed a deep problem that plagues the ESO community. There is a very unhealthy obsession over other people's DPS and who's, I quote, “dominating”. This makes some people upset when they should instead just be happy that they have teammates who can complete trials with them. Outside of PvP, I've never seen this crazy obsession with how other people achieve their DPS in any other MMOs I've played. Off the top of my head, games like Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, World of Warcraft, and Warframe never had players criticising each other's DPS methods. Never seen it in my life. As long as you're doing mechanics and putting out enough DPS, everyone's satisfied. What's wrong with ESO? Stop this madness!
I have provided enough data in this and the other thread to make it clear to anyone who does not choose to be blind to facts what the truth on this matter is. As I mentioned at the beginning in my main thread (i.e. this one), it is highly unlikely that I will extend my ESO+ or buy the expansion. I am trying to distance myself from ESO. Since I pay annually, I am sure I will still be doing stuff in game for the next few months. The friends from my guilds who lurk here and followed my posts also told me that despite being super polite and rational in what I wrote, and despite focusing on data and objectively verifiable facts, I was clearly being reported and my posts were snipped left and right (for baiting & conspiracy theories (?!)) while the anti-HA crowd was allowed free rein and engaged in whatever misinformation campaign and patronising trolling they wanted, (e.g. accusing others of lying about their disabilities, of being cowards (?!) etc.) so I don't think it makes any sense for me to spend any serious time and effort on this topic anymore. Everything that should be said has been said. We will see if ZOS will make a rational and fair decision. If not, well, you've made your bed, now lie in it...
So, if you see that I am not replying to a post that attacks what I wrote (or HA builds in general), it is most likely that 1. I am either no longer here 2. or the person who posted it is blocked because their previous posts proved that they were being so biased in what they wrote (which replies they ignored, how much they cherry-picked and so on) that I was forced to conclude any further discussion with them would be unreasonable and just a terrible waste of time.
The End
[edited for conspiracy theories]
MMOs: ESO (PS & PC), GW2 (😍) & Souls/Elden (😍)
76
-
TheDarkRuler✭✭✭✭✭
✭I feel you on on that topic. ZOS really has decided to screw over the people liking a more casual approach to the game or who are handicapped due to disabilities. Instead of allowing lower-dps with easy approach while keeping high dps to the pros they decided to make the lower dps even lower while keeping high dps on dual bars high. I am considering to not renew my ESO+ as well...22 -
CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭People are overreacting to the HA changes. HA builds will still have more than enough damage to complete all veteran content in the game - its already been demonstrated that you can still hit 90k+ dps on PTS with an Oakensoul HA setup. The only thing you won't be able to do is score push, which is something 99% of players can't do regardless of build.22 -
TheDarkRuler✭✭✭✭✭
✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »People are overreacting to the HA changes. HA builds will still have more than enough damage to complete all veteran content in the game - its already been demonstrated that you can still hit 90k+ dps on PTS with an Oakensoul HA setup. The only thing you won't be able to do is score push, which is something 99% of players can't do regardless of build.
Show the 90k DPS build on PTS and the CMX log. I havent found any.16 -
Artim_X✭✭✭✭✭
✭Although I still see Infallible Aether in live PvP, I for one dropped it in that environment when ZOS made the minor vulnerability proc tic only at the very end of a heavy attack. I really miss IA's choo choo sound 💔.
There are other heavy attack playstyles that work in a PvP environment (Knight Slayer). Although, it is unfortunate that players that want to focus on a heavy attack playstyle in PvP will have less options when the chapter drops.
The PvE nerf isn't as significant as some might think. Empower is still strong. Also if you build for crit and switch out Storm Master for a different heavy attack oriented set with less restrictive conditions, one will still be able to do decent damage that can clear vet content.
Technically heavy attack builds have always been viable even without empower (two-bar). However, nerfs to damage across the board made it so that players needed to utilize the new version of empower to maintain that viability.(AD) Artim X/Xirtām/Måtrix |PC/NA| Casual staff wielding vampire sorcerer/templar/arcanistElectric-Burn/Stunhttps://media.giphy.com/media/Av0zcKH3i2BkaY1GXW/giphy.gif/https://c.tenor.com/jQHdFftrgwMAAAAC/tenor.gifElectric-Heal- Damage Dealing Build.
- Gear: 5 Infallible Aether (All apparel light and Divines with Max Mag Enchants), 1 Slimecraw Guise for max spell critical (Divines, light, Max Mag Enchants), Maelstrom's Perfected Inferno/Lightning Staff (infused/shock enchant), and Rage of the Ursauk jewelry (bloodthirsty with spell damage enchant)/lightning staff (infused/flame/weapon damage enchant). 1 Mora's Whispers.
- Ability-Bar 1: Critical Surge, Boundless Storm, Mages' Wrath, Lightning Flood, Twilight Tormentor (Twilight Matriarch for solo roleplay variant of build), and Power Overload.
- Ability-Bar 2: Crushing Shock/Storm Pulsar, Streak, Flame/Shock Reach, Unstable Wall of Fire/Storms, Twilight Tormentor (Twilight Matriarch for solo roleplay variant of build) and Fiery/Thunderous Rage.
https://media.giphy.com/media/5ibGIHneWS6ek/giphy.gifElectric-Ward- My Healer Build.
- Gear: 5 Spell Power Cure (All apparel light and Divines with Max Mag Enchants), 1 Slimecraw Guise for max spell critical (Divines, light, Max Mag Enchants), Maelstrom's Perfected Lightning Staff (Charged/shock enchant), and Infallible Aether jewelry (arcane with spell damage enchant)/restoration staff (Powered with absorb magicka enchant). 1 Mora's Whispers.
- Ability-Bar 1: Power Surge, Boundless Storm, Blessing of Restoration, Energy Orb, Twilight Matriarch, and Replenishing Barrier.
- Ability-Bar 2: Dark Deal, Overflowing Altar, Elemental Drain, Blockade of Storms, Twilight Matriarch, and Aggressive Horn.
https://media.giphy.com/media/Wa0TGmtDvwW3e/giphy.gifElectric-Vamp- My Meme Tank Build that uses high resistance and variety of wards.
- Gear: 5 Brands of Imperium (All body pieces except Head and Shoulders, with Divine trait, and with Prismatic Defense Enchants), full Mother Ciannait's (1 light and 1 medium. Divines and Max Mag Enchant), and Combat Physician jewelry (bloodthirsty with Prismatic Recovery Enchants), CP restoration staff (Infused with hardening enchant), and CP ice staff (Infused with crusher enchant).
- Ability-Bar 1: Critical Surge, Bound Aegis, Deep Thoughts, Boundless Storm, Healing Ward, and Replenishing Barrier.
- Ability-Bar 2: Silver Leash (Elemental Drain if healer isn't running it), Bound Aegis, Frost Clench, Blockade of Frost, Empowered Ward, and Temporal Guard.
https://media.giphy.com/media/ukDQiYZzRAxMZKcK86/giphy.gifDawnfang- Tanky stage 4 vampire utility focused PvP healer that can take down very inexperienced players but is primarily focused on working alongside others in an organized group, PUGs, or zergs.
- Gear: 5 Torug's Pact for regular and NoCP build/Oblivion's Foe for dot build (medium chest and body pieces light. All Impenetrable. Max Mag Enchants). Gaze of Sithis and 1 light Mighty Chudan/Pirate Skeleton (light shoulders, and impenetrable with Max Mag Enchants). Knight Slayer/Pariah jewelry/Plaguebreak for dot build (bloodthirsty with spell damage enchant)/lightning staff (infused with oblivion enchant for regular and noCP build/absorb magicka enchant and Sharpened for dot build. Sharpened for dot build)/restoration staff (infused with oblivion enchant regular and noCP build/absorb magicka enchant and Sharpened for dot build).
- Ability-Bar 1: Structured Entropy, Boundless Storm, Soul Splitting Trap, Radiating Regeneration, Healing Ward, and Life Giver.
- Ability-Bar 2: Drain Vigor (Elemental Susceptibility), Race Against Time, Rune Cage, Radiant Magelight, Empowered Ward, and Shatter Soul.
https://media.tenor.com/ogWfvDdsqBIAAAAd/anime-black-clover.gifDuskfang- My casual one bar heavy attack Templar build that only utilizes Aedric Spear abilities.
- Gear: 5 Infallible Aether (Head or Shoulder and body pieces except Chest. All body pieces Divines with Max Mag Enchants), 1 Slimecraw Guise for max spell critical (Divines, light, Max Mag Enchant), Lightning Staff of the Sergeant (Infused/shock enchant), and Sergeant's Mail jewelry (One Ring and one Neck. Both bloodthirsty with spell damage enchant). 1 Oakensoul Ring (bloodthirsty with spell damage enchant).
- Ability-Bar 1: Puncturing Sweep, Aurora Javelin, Toppling Charge, Blazing Spear, Radiant Ward, and Crescent Sweep.
https://media.tenor.com/Jo8aG_ouy_oAAAAd/ac-odyssey.gifPvE Starter Gear- Tanky stage 4 vampire utility focused PvP healer that can take down very inexperienced players but is primarily focused on working alongside others in an organized group, PUGs, or zergs.
- Gear: 5 Torug's Pact (Heavy Chest with light Head, Waist, Hands, and Feet. All body pieces Impenetrable. Health enchant on head and everything else Magicka Enchants), 1 Medium Mighty Chudan/Pirate Skeleton Shoulder (Impenetrable, Max Health Enchant), Knight Slayer Restoration Staff (Infused/Decrease Health enchant/Stealth-Draining Poison IX), and Knight Slayer jewelry (One Ring and one Neck. Both bloodthirsty with spell damage enchant). 1 Oakensoul Ring (bloodthirsty with Spell Damage Enchant).
- Ability-Bar 1:Radiant Oppression, Race Against Time, Aurora Javelin, Breath of Life, Resolving Vigor, and Life Giver (Shatter Soul).
https://media.giphy.com/media/6CovzgyTig7M4/giphy.gifRace- Gear: 5 Law of Julianos (heavy chest, gloves/belt light, and the rest can be light or 1 medium piece if you're not wearing medium anywhere else on your body. All in training if grinding for XP or divines), Armor of the Seducer or Magnus' Gift head, shoulder, and staves (light with 1 medium piece if you are not already wearing 1 medium Julianos piece. All in training or divines. The staves should be training or infused), and 3 purple Willpower Jewelry with Arcane trait (can be bought from trading guilds for relatively cheap.
- Check tamrieltradecentre.com for the best deals if you're not using a price checking addon).
https://media.giphy.com/media/sdEkeWpiaGz0A/giphy.gifMundus Stones- High elf, since you will not have issues with sustain, but other mag based races are also fine so this is more of a personal choice.
https://media.giphy.com/media/cT3wMhLGQWdKU/giphy.gifCurrent Champion Points- PvP: The Lover for penetration when playing a sorc or temp.
- PvE Healing/Damage: The Thief for decent crit rate.
- PvE Tanking: The Lady to get close to resistance cap.
https://media.giphy.com/media/l4FGDAx6u3hthMhgI/giphy.gifFavorite Foods and Potions- DPS Sorc: Shadowstrike/ Master Gatherer, Meticulous Disassembly/Plentiful Harvest, Steed's Blessing, Sustaining Shadows, Exploiter, Weapons Expert, Biting Aura, Thaumaturge, Celerity, Rejuvenation, Fortified, Boundless Vitality.
- Healer Sorc: Shadowstrike/ Master Gatherer, Meticulous Disassembly/Plentiful Harvest, Steed's Blessing, Sustaining Shadows, Enlivening Overflow, Hope Infusion, Weapon's Expert, Arcane Supremacy, Celerity, Rejuvenation, Fortified, Boundless Vitality.
- Tanky Sorc: Shadowstrike/ Master Gatherer, Meticulous Disassembly/Plentiful Harvest, Steed's Blessing, Sustaining Shadows, Ironclad, Enduring Resolve, Reinforced, Duelist's Rebuff, Bastion, Ward Master, Rejuvenation, Fortified.
- PvP Sorc: Shadowstrike/ Master Gatherer, Meticulous Disassembly/Plentiful Harvest, Steed's Blessing, Sustaining Shadows, Enlivening Overflow, Weapon's Expert, Occult Overload, Arcane Supremacy, Bastion, Rejuvenation, Fortified, Boundless Vitality.
- PvE Temp: Shadowstrike/ Master Gatherer, Meticulous Disassembly/Plentiful Harvest, Steed's Blessing, Sustaining Shadows, Fighting Finesse, Master-at-Arms, Weapons Expert, Biting Aura, Celerity, Rejuvenation, Fortified, Boundless Vitality.
- PvP Temp: Shadowstrike/ Master Gatherer, Meticulous Disassembly/Plentiful Harvest, Steed's Blessing, Sustaining Shadows, Enlivening Overflow, Weapon's Expert, From the Brink, Arcane Supremacy, Celerity, Rejuvenation, Fortified, Boundless Vitality.
https://media.giphy.com/media/3otPoTggaYFNd1FdAI/giphy.gif- Parse Food for PvE:(DPS) Ghastly Eye Bowl (increases Max Magicka by 4592 and Magicka Recovery by 459 for 2 hours).
- Gold/Purple Food for Sorc PvP and Meme Tanking:(PvP) Clockwork Citrus Filet (increases Max Health by 3326, Health Recovery by 406 [useful if stage 1 vampire], Max Magicka by 3080, and Magicka Recovery by 338 for 2 hours). Witchmother's Potent Brew (Increase Max Magicka by 2856, Max Health by 3094, and Magicka Recovery by 315 for 2 hours.
- Trash Potions when feeling cheap: Regular CP150 Essence of Magicka pots that I obtain frequently from playing the game or Crown Tri-Restoration Potion obtained from dailies.
- Crafted Potions: Essence of Spell Critical (Bugloss, Lady's Smock, and Water Hyacinth). Without magelight this is my primary means of obtaining Major Prophecy on my Sorc, which increases my Spell Critical Rating. This also heals and restores magicka. Essence of Immovability (Columbine, Corn Flower, and Wormwood). I use this in PvP, since this gives me stealth detection, knockback immunity, and restores magicka (better to use it when competent allies are nearby, since it might reveal that you are surrounded by multiple players in stealth and you will not have an emergency pot available after use). Essence of Invisibility with only 2 ingredients (Blue Entoloma, Namira's Rot, Nirnroot, or Spider Egg). I use this in PvE content that requires stealth and if I need more speed I'll use Rapid Maneuver before using the potion. Essence of Invisibility with 3 ingredients (Blessed Thistle, Blue Entoloma, and Namira's Rot). Very useful in PvP alongside the vampire Dark Stalker passive, since you'll be invisible, ignore movement speed penalty while in Crouch, and you'll have a 30% movement speed boost from Major Expedition (I always have this slotted when riding from point A to B in PvP land, since gankers are always lurking). My templar will mostly use Essence of Health (Tri-Stat Potion) Ingredients: (Mountain Flower, Columbine, and Bugloss).
3 -
Twig_Garlicshine✭✭✭✭I had hope, but I am truly disappointed by the recent reversal of positive changes in the game over the last few months. A couple of base-game dungeon sets, such as Storm Master, finally had some use, but now they have been nerfed. We had finally found an alternative playstyle that, while weaker, was still viable, and it encouraged more players to become active and participate in trials and hard modes using HA builds. This made the game more inclusive towards people with disabilities. But now, these changes are being reversed, and it's a really sad situation.
100% agree.
I play both LA and HA, and seeing these changes led by Advertising driven Clickbait from ESO content creators and the Gatekeeping Crew made me reconsider buying the next Chapter.
Why?
The abandonment of "play how you want" in favour of the Gatekeeping Crew.
As in many other MMOs, eventually only the Gatekeeping Crew will remain in an empty wasteland of a game.30 -
CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭TheDarkRuler wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »People are overreacting to the HA changes. HA builds will still have more than enough damage to complete all veteran content in the game - its already been demonstrated that you can still hit 90k+ dps on PTS with an Oakensoul HA setup. The only thing you won't be able to do is score push, which is something 99% of players can't do regardless of build.
Show the 90k DPS build on PTS and the CMX log. I havent found any.
Even 70k dps is plenty though. The point is that even with the nerfs, you'll still be able to have enough dps with an Oaken HA build for all content. Period.
There was no "reversal" of the inclusion positive changes. 80% to 70% Empower tweak, and a slight nerf to Storm Master's (which isn't even the best set in an optimized group). That will work out to a 20% nerf or less. When people are hitting 110k in an Oakensoul HA setup on live, even a worst-case 30% overall nerf (they were NOT nerfed this much) still keeps Oakensoul HA builds at 77k - more than enough for any Vet Trial.Edited by CameraBeardThePirate on April 18, 2023 4:01PM6 -
Dagoth_Rac✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Another thing to keep in mind is that DPS "acceptability" is not really continuous. Right now, if a guild or group is looking for a DPS and you have a HA build, it is usually a case of, "Not gonna be as high numbers as a 'real DPS', but close enough, so I'll invite." But once the numbers drop low enough, even if they are plenty good enough for a clear, you will start to hear a lot of, "They have enough to clear but are gonna slow us down - don't invite them."
50k DPS in Maw of Lorkhaj used to be one-in-a-million Top 0.0001% elite. No one, and I mean no one, wants a 50k DPS in their vMOL run nowadays. So this idea that, "You still have enough to clear," is absolutely true but not all that relevant. HA builds don't need to do the same DPS as LA weaving builds. But they have to be close enough where guild leaders and trial organizers don't feel they are a hindrance. Depending on how the dust settles, it is possible, and even probable, that HA builds will do enough DPS to clear, but not enough DPS to be welcome in most groups.26 -
CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Dagoth_Rac wrote: »Another thing to keep in mind is that DPS "acceptability" is not really continuous. Right now, if a guild or group is looking for a DPS and you have a HA build, it is usually a case of, "Not gonna be as high numbers as a 'real DPS', but close enough, so I'll invite." But once the numbers drop low enough, even if they are plenty good enough for a clear, you will start to hear a lot of, "They have enough to clear but are gonna slow us down - don't invite them."
50k DPS in Maw of Lorkhaj used to be one-in-a-million Top 0.0001% elite. No one, and I mean no one, wants a 50k DPS in their vMOL run nowadays. So this idea that, "You still have enough to clear," is absolutely true but not all that relevant. HA builds don't need to do the same DPS as LA weaving builds. But they have to be close enough where guild leaders and trial organizers don't feel they are a hindrance. Depending on how the dust settles, it is possible, and even probable, that HA builds will do enough DPS to clear, but not enough DPS to be welcome in most groups.
Saying 75k+ dps isn't enough to be welcome in most groups is disingenuous. Group leaders requiring more dps than that are either score pushing, going for HM progs, or just bad raid leaders that don't understand how much dps is actually necessary. All of these are issues with the group itself and not issues with Oaken HA builds. If you're getting turned away from groups, join a guild that's more welcoming; there's plenty of Vet Trial guilds that would be more than comfortable welcoming Oaken HA builds as long as you're willing to learn mechanics.
Edit: also important to note the 50k of those days is the same as the 100k from present day due to the trial dummies. Requirements haven't changed, the inclusion of the Trial dummy just multiplied everyone's numbers. Shoutout to parsing on BloodspawnEdited by CameraBeardThePirate on April 18, 2023 4:26PM3 -
Shagreth✭✭✭✭✭
✭The Arcanist is the best thing to happen to ESO since forever. I fully expect them to rework the old classes at some point because of how good & fluid the class feels. And this is the beta, they'll definitely fine tune stuff as time goes by.
As for HA builds, hope they continue to be a thing, I hate weaving with a passion, even though I'm good at it.Edited by Shagreth on April 18, 2023 4:21PM3 -
markulrich1966✭✭✭✭✭
✭I was playing Mothers Sorrow with Torugs Pact on sorcerers before U35.
Gave heavy staff attacks decent damage even without the new version of Empower.
After U35, I do more damage with Sergeants Mail/Queens Elegance, but this has the price of investing tons of gold mats again, grinding dungeons. Not even the best, as this would require Oakensoul and stormmaster (antiquity and another dungeon grind).
Now they nerf HA again, after they turned it into such a hard to get way of doing damage.
Remains difficult to get, but soon not any stronger than the easy (overland/craftable) MS/TP way of using a heavy staff before U35.
I'm just glad I did not renew my sub after I returned from my 4 months break. A game that treats staff attacks without any passion where half of the classes are magica based, is just a melee hack&slay. You also could play Doom instead using a chainsaw.Edited by markulrich1966 on April 18, 2023 4:27PM9 -
AScarlato✭✭✭✭✭Completely agree. I just got the sets last week and was really enjoying the new playstyle. Regret investing all the mats improving them given how little time I’ll have with this version.
It didn’t feel too op given in a lot of real situations the ramp up time needed for the dps boosts meant trash was all dead from the 2 bar people before I could get more than one ha off. And in pvp battlegrounds without a lot of space it was okay hit nothing to write home about compared to the unkillable and dk builds or radiant spammers.13 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭How big are the nerfs really?
Reducing Empower is less than 5% to heavy attack DPS (and of course irrelevant to any other damage you do).
Replacing Storm Master with Undaunted Infiltrator costs you a line each of spell/weapon power and crit chance. How much does that affect overall DPS?
The replacement also increases you heavy attack tooltip by 2% or so.
It feels like the nerf should total less than 6% to DPS, whether or not you are running Storm Master now.
Is that a gamechanger at the high end (where I never play)?Edited by FrancisCrawford on April 18, 2023 4:31PM5 -
AScarlato✭✭✭✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »How big are the nerfs really?
Reducing Empower is less than 5% to heavy attack DPS (and of course irrelevant to any other damage you do).
Replacing Storm Master with Undaunted Infiltrator costs you a line each of spell/weapon power and crit chance. How much does that affect overall DPS?
The replacement also increases you heavy attack tooltip by 2% or so.
It feels like the nerf should total less than 6% to DPS, whether or not you are running Storm Master now.
Is that a gamechanger at the high end (where I never play)?
Storm master no longer works in battlegrounds at all where it was already not great. Limited space and walls to hide behind all over means it’s hard to get the HAs to complete and already didn’t compete well with real pvp builds.
It was serviceable enough that I didn’t have to swap builds and could play in this build while waiting on the queue to pop. Now so I need to buy a $50 armory assistant unless I just afk and wait to play battlegrounds ?
If it’s such a small change in pve why bother harming people looking for this relaxed play style? Argument goes both ways and just feels misleading bait for peole who invest resources and petty.
9 -
CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »How big are the nerfs really?
Reducing Empower is less than 5% to heavy attack DPS (and of course irrelevant to any other damage you do).
Replacing Storm Master with Undaunted Infiltrator costs you a line each of spell/weapon power and crit chance. How much does that affect overall DPS?
The replacement also increases you heavy attack tooltip by 2% or so.
It feels like the nerf should total less than 6% to DPS, whether or not you are running Storm Master now.
Is that a gamechanger at the high end (where I never play)?
Storm master no longer works in battlegrounds at all where it was already not great. Limited space and walls to hide behind all over means it’s hard to get the HAs to complete and already didn’t compete well with real pvp builds.
It was serviceable enough that I didn’t have to swap builds and could play in this build while waiting on the queue to pop. Now so I need to buy a $50 armory assistant unless I just afk and wait to play battlegrounds ?
If it’s such a small change in pve why bother harming people looking for this relaxed play style? Argument goes both ways and just feels misleading bait for peole who invest resources and petty.
Or.... you could save money and spend that time farming skill points. I never have to use the armorer because i have enough skill points for a PvP build + a PvE build without having to respec. It's also really not harming the playstyle too much at all. For once this change was a small change vs. ZOS's usual sledgehammer approachEdited by CameraBeardThePirate on April 18, 2023 4:40PM0 -
AScarlato✭✭✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »How big are the nerfs really?
Reducing Empower is less than 5% to heavy attack DPS (and of course irrelevant to any other damage you do).
Replacing Storm Master with Undaunted Infiltrator costs you a line each of spell/weapon power and crit chance. How much does that affect overall DPS?
The replacement also increases you heavy attack tooltip by 2% or so.
It feels like the nerf should total less than 6% to DPS, whether or not you are running Storm Master now.
Is that a gamechanger at the high end (where I never play)?
Storm master no longer works in battlegrounds at all where it was already not great. Limited space and walls to hide behind all over means it’s hard to get the HAs to complete and already didn’t compete well with real pvp builds.
It was serviceable enough that I didn’t have to swap builds and could play in this build while waiting on the queue to pop. Now so I need to buy a $50 armory assistant unless I just afk and wait to play battlegrounds ?
If it’s such a small change in pve why bother harming people looking for this relaxed play style? Argument goes both ways and just feels misleading bait for peole who invest resources and petty.
Or.... you could save money and spend that time farming skill points. I never have to use the armorer because i have enough skill points for a PvP build + a PvE build without having to respec.
Time is money.10 -
CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »How big are the nerfs really?
Reducing Empower is less than 5% to heavy attack DPS (and of course irrelevant to any other damage you do).
Replacing Storm Master with Undaunted Infiltrator costs you a line each of spell/weapon power and crit chance. How much does that affect overall DPS?
The replacement also increases you heavy attack tooltip by 2% or so.
It feels like the nerf should total less than 6% to DPS, whether or not you are running Storm Master now.
Is that a gamechanger at the high end (where I never play)?
Storm master no longer works in battlegrounds at all where it was already not great. Limited space and walls to hide behind all over means it’s hard to get the HAs to complete and already didn’t compete well with real pvp builds.
It was serviceable enough that I didn’t have to swap builds and could play in this build while waiting on the queue to pop. Now so I need to buy a $50 armory assistant unless I just afk and wait to play battlegrounds ?
If it’s such a small change in pve why bother harming people looking for this relaxed play style? Argument goes both ways and just feels misleading bait for peole who invest resources and petty.
Or.... you could save money and spend that time farming skill points. I never have to use the armorer because i have enough skill points for a PvP build + a PvE build without having to respec.
Time is money.
And spending the time to farm skill points is an investment, saving you countless hours and gold in the future.0 -
AScarlato✭✭✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »How big are the nerfs really?
Reducing Empower is less than 5% to heavy attack DPS (and of course irrelevant to any other damage you do).
Replacing Storm Master with Undaunted Infiltrator costs you a line each of spell/weapon power and crit chance. How much does that affect overall DPS?
The replacement also increases you heavy attack tooltip by 2% or so.
It feels like the nerf should total less than 6% to DPS, whether or not you are running Storm Master now.
Is that a gamechanger at the high end (where I never play)?
Storm master no longer works in battlegrounds at all where it was already not great. Limited space and walls to hide behind all over means it’s hard to get the HAs to complete and already didn’t compete well with real pvp builds.
It was serviceable enough that I didn’t have to swap builds and could play in this build while waiting on the queue to pop. Now so I need to buy a $50 armory assistant unless I just afk and wait to play battlegrounds ?
If it’s such a small change in pve why bother harming people looking for this relaxed play style? Argument goes both ways and just feels misleading bait for peole who invest resources and petty.
Or.... you could save money and spend that time farming skill points. I never have to use the armorer because i have enough skill points for a PvP build + a PvE build without having to respec.
Time is money.
And spending the time to farm skill points is an investment, saving you countless hours and gold in the future.
Even then it would still be irritating to have to swap gear and skills and morphs (which I guess you couldn’t do even with your skill points) every time a queue pops when the whole point of people into this is a laid back and relaxing play style.
9 -
CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »How big are the nerfs really?
Reducing Empower is less than 5% to heavy attack DPS (and of course irrelevant to any other damage you do).
Replacing Storm Master with Undaunted Infiltrator costs you a line each of spell/weapon power and crit chance. How much does that affect overall DPS?
The replacement also increases you heavy attack tooltip by 2% or so.
It feels like the nerf should total less than 6% to DPS, whether or not you are running Storm Master now.
Is that a gamechanger at the high end (where I never play)?
Storm master no longer works in battlegrounds at all where it was already not great. Limited space and walls to hide behind all over means it’s hard to get the HAs to complete and already didn’t compete well with real pvp builds.
It was serviceable enough that I didn’t have to swap builds and could play in this build while waiting on the queue to pop. Now so I need to buy a $50 armory assistant unless I just afk and wait to play battlegrounds ?
If it’s such a small change in pve why bother harming people looking for this relaxed play style? Argument goes both ways and just feels misleading bait for peole who invest resources and petty.
Or.... you could save money and spend that time farming skill points. I never have to use the armorer because i have enough skill points for a PvP build + a PvE build without having to respec.
Time is money.
And spending the time to farm skill points is an investment, saving you countless hours and gold in the future.
Even then it would still be irritating to have to swap gear and skills and morphs (which I guess you couldn’t do even with your skill points) every time a queue pops when the whole point of people into this is a laid back and relaxing play style.
If you're on PC, it's as easy as clicking a button with the dressing room addon. If you're on console, sure you have to change stuff but there's a minute of downtime before a BG starts anyways.1 -
AScarlato✭✭✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »How big are the nerfs really?
Reducing Empower is less than 5% to heavy attack DPS (and of course irrelevant to any other damage you do).
Replacing Storm Master with Undaunted Infiltrator costs you a line each of spell/weapon power and crit chance. How much does that affect overall DPS?
The replacement also increases you heavy attack tooltip by 2% or so.
It feels like the nerf should total less than 6% to DPS, whether or not you are running Storm Master now.
Is that a gamechanger at the high end (where I never play)?
Storm master no longer works in battlegrounds at all where it was already not great. Limited space and walls to hide behind all over means it’s hard to get the HAs to complete and already didn’t compete well with real pvp builds.
It was serviceable enough that I didn’t have to swap builds and could play in this build while waiting on the queue to pop. Now so I need to buy a $50 armory assistant unless I just afk and wait to play battlegrounds ?
If it’s such a small change in pve why bother harming people looking for this relaxed play style? Argument goes both ways and just feels misleading bait for peole who invest resources and petty.
Or.... you could save money and spend that time farming skill points. I never have to use the armorer because i have enough skill points for a PvP build + a PvE build without having to respec.
Time is money.
And spending the time to farm skill points is an investment, saving you countless hours and gold in the future.
Even then it would still be irritating to have to swap gear and skills and morphs (which I guess you couldn’t do even with your skill points) every time a queue pops when the whole point of people into this is a laid back and relaxing play style.
If you're on PC, it's as easy as clicking a button with the dressing room addon. If you're on console, sure you have to change stuff but there's a minute of downtime before a BG starts anyways.
And that’s irritating. Especially if you quest in between bgs that very randomly pop after large variances in wait time.5 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »How big are the nerfs really?
Reducing Empower is less than 5% to heavy attack DPS (and of course irrelevant to any other damage you do).
Replacing Storm Master with Undaunted Infiltrator costs you a line each of spell/weapon power and crit chance. How much does that affect overall DPS?
The replacement also increases you heavy attack tooltip by 2% or so.
It feels like the nerf should total less than 6% to DPS, whether or not you are running Storm Master now.
Is that a gamechanger at the high end (where I never play)?
Storm master no longer works in battlegrounds at all where it was already not great. Limited space and walls to hide behind all over means it’s hard to get the HAs to complete and already didn’t compete well with real pvp builds.
It was serviceable enough that I didn’t have to swap builds and could play in this build while waiting on the queue to pop. Now so I need to buy a $50 armory assistant unless I just afk and wait to play battlegrounds ?
If it’s such a small change in pve why bother harming people looking for this relaxed play style? Argument goes both ways and just feels misleading bait for peole who invest resources and petty.
Or.... you could save money and spend that time farming skill points. I never have to use the armorer because i have enough skill points for a PvP build + a PvE build without having to respec.
Time is money.
And spending the time to farm skill points is an investment, saving you countless hours and gold in the future.
Even then it would still be irritating to have to swap gear and skills and morphs (which I guess you couldn’t do even with your skill points) every time a queue pops when the whole point of people into this is a laid back and relaxing play style.
I presume you aren't on the PC, and hence can't use add-ons?0 -
CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »How big are the nerfs really?
Reducing Empower is less than 5% to heavy attack DPS (and of course irrelevant to any other damage you do).
Replacing Storm Master with Undaunted Infiltrator costs you a line each of spell/weapon power and crit chance. How much does that affect overall DPS?
The replacement also increases you heavy attack tooltip by 2% or so.
It feels like the nerf should total less than 6% to DPS, whether or not you are running Storm Master now.
Is that a gamechanger at the high end (where I never play)?
Storm master no longer works in battlegrounds at all where it was already not great. Limited space and walls to hide behind all over means it’s hard to get the HAs to complete and already didn’t compete well with real pvp builds.
It was serviceable enough that I didn’t have to swap builds and could play in this build while waiting on the queue to pop. Now so I need to buy a $50 armory assistant unless I just afk and wait to play battlegrounds ?
If it’s such a small change in pve why bother harming people looking for this relaxed play style? Argument goes both ways and just feels misleading bait for peole who invest resources and petty.
Or.... you could save money and spend that time farming skill points. I never have to use the armorer because i have enough skill points for a PvP build + a PvE build without having to respec.
Time is money.
And spending the time to farm skill points is an investment, saving you countless hours and gold in the future.
Even then it would still be irritating to have to swap gear and skills and morphs (which I guess you couldn’t do even with your skill points) every time a queue pops when the whole point of people into this is a laid back and relaxing play style.
If you're on PC, it's as easy as clicking a button with the dressing room addon. If you're on console, sure you have to change stuff but there's a minute of downtime before a BG starts anyways.
And that’s irritating. Especially if you quest in between bgs that very randomly pop after large variances in wait time.
If your reply to a fairly simple solution to the problem proposed is "that's irritating" then I'm not really sure what else to say. You have more than enough time to change setups between the time you join the lobby and before a BG starts. It's also silly and a little entitled to expect to not have to wear varying setups for PvE and PvP; they function completely differently.Edited by CameraBeardThePirate on April 18, 2023 4:58PM2 -
AScarlato✭✭✭✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »How big are the nerfs really?
Reducing Empower is less than 5% to heavy attack DPS (and of course irrelevant to any other damage you do).
Replacing Storm Master with Undaunted Infiltrator costs you a line each of spell/weapon power and crit chance. How much does that affect overall DPS?
The replacement also increases you heavy attack tooltip by 2% or so.
It feels like the nerf should total less than 6% to DPS, whether or not you are running Storm Master now.
Is that a gamechanger at the high end (where I never play)?
Storm master no longer works in battlegrounds at all where it was already not great. Limited space and walls to hide behind all over means it’s hard to get the HAs to complete and already didn’t compete well with real pvp builds.
It was serviceable enough that I didn’t have to swap builds and could play in this build while waiting on the queue to pop. Now so I need to buy a $50 armory assistant unless I just afk and wait to play battlegrounds ?
If it’s such a small change in pve why bother harming people looking for this relaxed play style? Argument goes both ways and just feels misleading bait for peole who invest resources and petty.
Or.... you could save money and spend that time farming skill points. I never have to use the armorer because i have enough skill points for a PvP build + a PvE build without having to respec.
Time is money.
And spending the time to farm skill points is an investment, saving you countless hours and gold in the future.
Even then it would still be irritating to have to swap gear and skills and morphs (which I guess you couldn’t do even with your skill points) every time a queue pops when the whole point of people into this is a laid back and relaxing play style.
I presume you aren't on the PC, and hence can't use add-ons?
You already conceded this isn’t a solution for all platforms. It also ignores having to farm an entirely new set and improve it all over again - much like those who used PB in pve.
@CameraBeardThePirate
Maybe you missed that the appeal of these builds for many is relaxation and ease of entry. Inconvenience is what we aren’t looking for and having to change gear and skill every 10 minutes if you do bgs and actually play while waiting is just what I don’t want.
This change is a huge irritance to someone with my playstyle as i also need to find a new set entirely.Edited by AScarlato on April 18, 2023 5:01PM3 -
Red_Feather✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I know they are selling power creep with arcanist, but you don't have to invest in it. Take a break for a year or two and see if the game is still standing. We outlive everything ZoS does. That is our nature.5 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I already made the decision to renew ESO+ because I was interested in the endless dungeon and Arcanist. However, I too am not pleased with the change.
I use my two bar templar for anything challenging so it won't affect my gameplay personally but there are definitely a lot of people I know who were. They were excited to try vet content and as a result of knowing more people doing vet content, I was also being invited to more vet content despite the fact I was not using the HA build in difficult content myself. This had greatly increased my enjoyment of the game.
So, it's disappointing to see ZOS deliver such a massive nerf to HA builds and HA sorcs in particular.23 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »How big are the nerfs really?
Reducing Empower is less than 5% to heavy attack DPS (and of course irrelevant to any other damage you do).
Replacing Storm Master with Undaunted Infiltrator costs you a line each of spell/weapon power and crit chance. How much does that affect overall DPS?
The replacement also increases you heavy attack tooltip by 2% or so.
It feels like the nerf should total less than 6% to DPS, whether or not you are running Storm Master now.
Is that a gamechanger at the high end (where I never play)?
Storm master no longer works in battlegrounds at all where it was already not great. Limited space and walls to hide behind all over means it’s hard to get the HAs to complete and already didn’t compete well with real pvp builds.
It was serviceable enough that I didn’t have to swap builds and could play in this build while waiting on the queue to pop. Now so I need to buy a $50 armory assistant unless I just afk and wait to play battlegrounds ?
If it’s such a small change in pve why bother harming people looking for this relaxed play style? Argument goes both ways and just feels misleading bait for peole who invest resources and petty.
Or.... you could save money and spend that time farming skill points. I never have to use the armorer because i have enough skill points for a PvP build + a PvE build without having to respec.
Time is money.
And spending the time to farm skill points is an investment, saving you countless hours and gold in the future.
Even then it would still be irritating to have to swap gear and skills and morphs (which I guess you couldn’t do even with your skill points) every time a queue pops when the whole point of people into this is a laid back and relaxing play style.
I presume you aren't on the PC, and hence can't use add-ons?
You already conceded this isn’t a solution for all platforms. It also ignores having to farm an entirely new set and improve it all over again - much like those who used PB in pve.
@CameraBeardThePirate
Maybe you missed that the appeal of these builds for many is relaxation and ease of entry. Inconvenience is what we aren’t looking for and having to change gear and skill every 10 minutes if you do bgs and actually play while waiting is just what I don’t want.
This change is a huge irritance to someone with my playstyle as i also need to find a new set entirely.
Well, much of PvE works just fine with inferior builds, e.g. ones that are good for PvP only.
Conversely -- uh, what's your morph conflict between PvP and PvE? Haunting Curse/Daedric Prey? Anything else? I don't even like Daedric Prey in most solo PvE.0 -
jecks33✭✭✭✭✭
✭they should have buffed the new mythic necklace and left empower/SM as they are. More power creep between HA users and LA users, everybody happy, enjoy the game, but no....PC-EU4 -
loveeso✭✭✭✭I agree with most of what has been written in the above comments apart from the following (these suggest replying without reading what the OP wrote ) 👇CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Or.... you could save money and spend that time farming skill points. I never have to use the armorer because i have enough skill points for a PvP build + a PvE build without having to respec.
And spending the time to farm skill points is an investment, saving you countless hours and gold in the future.
It doesn’t have much to do with skill points. Also, what if your LA & HA builds require different morphs of the same skill?
And what about Champion Points? It is okay for me to switch because I am high CP, but people with lower CP will have to pay for a respec every time they switch between LA and HA.CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Saying 75k+ dps isn't enough to be welcome in most groups is disingenuous
It isn’t disingenuous though, is it? That’s how it is and everyone who leads trials or just does many trials a week knows it’s the truth so why deny it? Theorising is all fine but it doesn’t make sense when it contradicts reality.CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »TheDarkRuler wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »People are overreacting to the HA changes.
… its already been demonstrated that you can still hit 90k+ dps on PTS with an Oakensoul HA setup.
Show the 90k DPS build on PTS and the CMX log. I havent found any.
Even 70k dps is plenty though.
alsoCameraBeardThePirate wrote: »… still keeps Oakensoul HA builds at 77k - more than enough
alsoCameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Saying 75k+ dps isn't enough to be welcome in most groups is disingenuous
So far, you have managed to move from 90k+ to 77k to 75k to 70k each time saying such a nerf is not much. Please stop moving the goal posts to suit your narrative. In another comment you also stated that HA builds can do 110k+ on a trial dummy on the live server - come on 😆CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »… and a slight nerf to Storm Master's (which isn't even the best set in an optimized group)
But Storm Master IS the best set in optimised groups. The current meta for HA is 1pc Slime, Storm Master, Sergeant, Oakensoul. There is absolutely no doubt about it. Here you go, an example: https://www.esologs.com/reports/c6pRrqwC1VAWYnDK#fight=17&type=damage-done
I played with many people using different HA builds, I tested many builds myself (duelist, undaunted, infallible, you name it, all of them) both on a trial dummy and in real content, including DLC trial HMs - SM is BIS & everyone knows it.
TL;DR
There is no need to guess by how much these two nerfs will decrease the meta HA DPS (e.g. depending on when the Empower buff and the SM buff are in the damage calculation chain) because instead of guessing I went to the PTS server to test it and get the actual numbers. After doing that, I provided these REAL numbers (not guesses about “how they should be”) in my original post. Combined, 12.5% nerf to Empower and 60% nerf to the SM duration result in 15% to 20% DPS nerf. If you think 15-20% nerf is negligible, then we might just as well claim that having 5-pc bonuses of Depths, Pillar, Coral, and Rele sets nerfed to 0 and that would be okay too. But we all know that it is not true because no one would wear them anymore. 15-20% DPS nerf is huge.
It is okay to dislike HA builds for whatever reason but please do not reply if you do not read what others wrote first and please do not spread disinformation. Please
MMOs: ESO (PS & PC), GW2 (😍) & Souls/Elden (😍)23 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I agree with most of what has been written in the above comments apart from the following (these suggest replying without reading what the OP wrote ) 👇CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Or.... you could save money and spend that time farming skill points. I never have to use the armorer because i have enough skill points for a PvP build + a PvE build without having to respec.
And spending the time to farm skill points is an investment, saving you countless hours and gold in the future.
It doesn’t have much to do with skill points. Also, what if your LA & HA builds require different morphs of the same skill?
And what about Champion Points? It is okay for me to switch because I am high CP, but people with lower CP will have to pay for a respec every time they switch between LA and HA.CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Saying 75k+ dps isn't enough to be welcome in most groups is disingenuous
It isn’t disingenuous though, is it? That’s how it is and everyone who leads trials or just does many trials a week knows it’s the truth so why deny it? Theorising is all fine but it doesn’t make sense when it contradicts reality.CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »TheDarkRuler wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »People are overreacting to the HA changes.
… its already been demonstrated that you can still hit 90k+ dps on PTS with an Oakensoul HA setup.
Show the 90k DPS build on PTS and the CMX log. I havent found any.
Even 70k dps is plenty though.
alsoCameraBeardThePirate wrote: »… still keeps Oakensoul HA builds at 77k - more than enough
alsoCameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Saying 75k+ dps isn't enough to be welcome in most groups is disingenuous
So far, you have managed to move from 90k+ to 77k to 75k to 70k each time saying such a nerf is not much. Please stop moving the goal posts to suit your narrative. In another comment you also stated that HA builds can do 110k+ on a trial dummy on the live server - come on 😆CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »… and a slight nerf to Storm Master's (which isn't even the best set in an optimized group)
But Storm Master IS the best set in optimised groups. The current meta for HA is 1pc Slime, Storm Master, Sergeant, Oakensoul. There is absolutely no doubt about it. Here you go, an example: https://www.esologs.com/reports/c6pRrqwC1VAWYnDK#fight=17&type=damage-done
I played with many people using different HA builds, I tested many builds myself (duelist, undaunted, infallible, you name it, all of them) both on a trial dummy and in real content, including DLC trial HMs - SM is BIS & everyone knows it.
TL;DR
There is no need to guess by how much these two nerfs will decrease the meta HA DPS (e.g. depending on when the Empower buff and the SM buff are in the damage calculation chain) because instead of guessing I went to the PTS server to test it and get the actual numbers. After doing that, I provided these REAL numbers (not guesses about “how they should be”) in my original post. Combined, 12.5% nerf to Empower and 60% nerf to the SM duration result in 15% to 20% DPS nerf. If you think 15-20% nerf is negligible, then we might just as well claim that having 5-pc bonuses of Depths, Pillar, Coral, and Rele sets nerfed to 0 and that would be okay too. But we all know that it is not true because no one would wear them anymore. 15-20% DPS nerf is huge.
It is okay to dislike HA builds for whatever reason but please do not reply if you do not read what others wrote first and please do not spread disinformation. Please
I run in vet trials with a guild group. We don't have any minimum dps requirements. We cleared Vet Sunspire with some DPS doing less than 50K, probably myself included. Also Vet Asylum. All craglorn hardmodes.
We are currently working our way through vet MoL. No DPs requirements.
Eventually, we will get to the other DLC trials as well. Still, all no DPs requirements.
So no, groups aren't all requiring anything.
And even if they were, the option to form your own group, with whatever build requirements you want, exists. You want heavy attack builds in the group, great, you can do that because it is your group. You want people with 30K DPS, you can do that too. Just as any other groups can set their own standards based on the experience they expect to get from the content.
3 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭eovogtb16_ESO wrote: »It's kind of ironic to see the people who have treated toxic endgamers like crybabies for years to be provided with an option that can let them steamroll content with minimal effort, and after a small nerf, (you can still parse close to 100k and still steamroll content), have the same kind of feelings that toxic endgamers have had since beta.
It's not a small nerf and you're not gonna be doing close to 100k. It's more like 80-90 with just empower alone. Can't pts test to know how storm master shakes out. But that will nerf it even further.Edited by spartaxoxo on April 18, 2023 5:53PM12 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I agree with most of what has been written in the above comments apart from the following (these suggest replying without reading what the OP wrote ) 👇CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Or.... you could save money and spend that time farming skill points. I never have to use the armorer because i have enough skill points for a PvP build + a PvE build without having to respec.
And spending the time to farm skill points is an investment, saving you countless hours and gold in the future.
It doesn’t have much to do with skill points. Also, what if your LA & HA builds require different morphs of the same skill?
And what about Champion Points? It is okay for me to switch because I am high CP, but people with lower CP will have to pay for a respec every time they switch between LA and HA.CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Saying 75k+ dps isn't enough to be welcome in most groups is disingenuous
It isn’t disingenuous though, is it? That’s how it is and everyone who leads trials or just does many trials a week knows it’s the truth so why deny it? Theorising is all fine but it doesn’t make sense when it contradicts reality.CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »TheDarkRuler wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »People are overreacting to the HA changes.
… its already been demonstrated that you can still hit 90k+ dps on PTS with an Oakensoul HA setup.
Show the 90k DPS build on PTS and the CMX log. I havent found any.
Even 70k dps is plenty though.
alsoCameraBeardThePirate wrote: »… still keeps Oakensoul HA builds at 77k - more than enough
alsoCameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Saying 75k+ dps isn't enough to be welcome in most groups is disingenuous
So far, you have managed to move from 90k+ to 77k to 75k to 70k each time saying such a nerf is not much. Please stop moving the goal posts to suit your narrative. In another comment you also stated that HA builds can do 110k+ on a trial dummy on the live server - come on 😆CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »… and a slight nerf to Storm Master's (which isn't even the best set in an optimized group)
But Storm Master IS the best set in optimised groups. The current meta for HA is 1pc Slime, Storm Master, Sergeant, Oakensoul. There is absolutely no doubt about it. Here you go, an example: https://www.esologs.com/reports/c6pRrqwC1VAWYnDK#fight=17&type=damage-done
I played with many people using different HA builds, I tested many builds myself (duelist, undaunted, infallible, you name it, all of them) both on a trial dummy and in real content, including DLC trial HMs - SM is BIS & everyone knows it.
TL;DR
There is no need to guess by how much these two nerfs will decrease the meta HA DPS (e.g. depending on when the Empower buff and the SM buff are in the damage calculation chain) because instead of guessing I went to the PTS server to test it and get the actual numbers. After doing that, I provided these REAL numbers (not guesses about “how they should be”) in my original post. Combined, 12.5% nerf to Empower and 60% nerf to the SM duration result in 15% to 20% DPS nerf. If you think 15-20% nerf is negligible, then we might just as well claim that having 5-pc bonuses of Depths, Pillar, Coral, and Rele sets nerfed to 0 and that would be okay too. But we all know that it is not true because no one would wear them anymore. 15-20% DPS nerf is huge.
It is okay to dislike HA builds for whatever reason but please do not reply if you do not read what others wrote first and please do not spread disinformation. Please
I also want to add, 15-20% isn't actually a real "Heavy attack build" nerf amount though. Because, as with ANY set change in any patch, you need to adjust the sets to be the best sets to run for the build. Pre-Patch, that was Storm Master and Sergeants. Now, may that is Sergeants and another set, or two entirely different sets.
You can't claim the heavy attack build is hopelessly nerfed, without showing that no other setup with heavy attack oakensoul can do more than 15-20% less damage than the previous build.
And yeah, let's say they reduced those sets you mentioned to zero. Depths, Pillar, Coral, and Rele. You know what would happen? I do. Players would hop onto PTS and put on a different set and guage their new DPS numbers with that new set in comparison to their old setup. They wouldn't get on PTS and put on the same thing and complain the DPS is too low. Other sets still work and other sets were already fairly close in live to the SM/Serg setup. Just like other setups are close enough to those proc sets you called out.
Edited by jaws343 on April 18, 2023 5:59PM4
This discussion has been closed.