Why do some people hate HA?

FantasticFreddie

disintegr8 wrote: »

I suggest that a fair portion of the 'hate' is elitist - some people have put a lot of effort into perfecting their weaving rotations and the thought that some Johnny come lately can match it without too much hard work upsets them.

Another part of the problem is the game trying to balance PVP and PVE with the same sets and the same skills - you bring a string set/item out for PVE and it negatively impacts PVP, and vice versa.

As for trials, the trial runner/organizer has the right to accept and reject anything they want, without having to justify it to anyone. If they are unreasonable, they'll very quickly struggle to fill a trial, if they run good trials, people will be eager to join. if you join a trial guild and start debating why this and why that, you'll be looking for another guild very quickly.

Whatever build you want to run, you run, but if you want to run an unpopular build in harder content, you may have to run your own trials. DLC vet trials require teamwork and a team performance, who cares how much DPS you put out if the group keeps wiping.

A pet peeve of mine is people who put forth this false narrative, where they either imply or outright say that people with lower dps are better at mechanics than people with high dps, often saying things like oh it doesn't matter how good your dps is if you can't do mechanics!
Well, this is true, but I will say this: its been my experience that the higher dps players are also the best at mechanics. This is not a hard and fast rule, and you will have both lower dps players who are good at mechanics, and higher dps players who are bad at them but as a rule? The higher dps players are also the best at mechanics. And, if you think about it-- it makes sense. Of course the people who put the most time and effort in and have the fastest reaction time are going to be best at getting the bash, noticing the portal is up and since most portal mechanics in this game is a mini game of dps, of course the highest dps are going to be best at portals.

And, when you have a player that is amazing at mechanics but parses low both on a dummy and in content, 9 times out of 10 they main another role and only dd casually.

The myth of the low dps player that saves the day with flawless execution of mechanics in the face of the brainless parse monkeys is largely just that-- a myth.

There are parse monkeys that tunnel vision-- but they are not usually the top dps in the group, and they almost always get roundly scolded by the lead if they much up mechanics because they were parsing.

vsrs_au

I'm starting to think all these Oakensoul and HA threads should be merged into 1 thread, just like with the overland thread. At least that way all the anti-Oakensoul and anti-HA prejudice will be quarantined into 1 spot. The current proliferation of such threads is making this forum unpleasant.

AScarlato

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

disintegr8 wrote: »

I suggest that a fair portion of the 'hate' is elitist - some people have put a lot of effort into perfecting their weaving rotations and the thought that some Johnny come lately can match it without too much hard work upsets them.

Another part of the problem is the game trying to balance PVP and PVE with the same sets and the same skills - you bring a string set/item out for PVE and it negatively impacts PVP, and vice versa.

As for trials, the trial runner/organizer has the right to accept and reject anything they want, without having to justify it to anyone. If they are unreasonable, they'll very quickly struggle to fill a trial, if they run good trials, people will be eager to join. if you join a trial guild and start debating why this and why that, you'll be looking for another guild very quickly.

Whatever build you want to run, you run, but if you want to run an unpopular build in harder content, you may have to run your own trials. DLC vet trials require teamwork and a team performance, who cares how much DPS you put out if the group keeps wiping.

A pet peeve of mine is people who put forth this false narrative, where they either imply or outright say that people with lower dps are better at mechanics than people with high dps, often saying things like oh it doesn't matter how good your dps is if you can't do mechanics!
Well, this is true, but I will say this: its been my experience that the higher dps players are also the best at mechanics. This is not a hard and fast rule, and you will have both lower dps players who are good at mechanics, and higher dps players who are bad at them but as a rule? The higher dps players are also the best at mechanics. And, if you think about it-- it makes sense. Of course the people who put the most time and effort in and have the fastest reaction time are going to be best at getting the bash, noticing the portal is up and since most portal mechanics in this game is a mini game of dps, of course the highest dps are going to be best at portals.

And, when you have a player that is amazing at mechanics but parses low both on a dummy and in content, 9 times out of 10 they main another role and only dd casually.

The myth of the low dps player that saves the day with flawless execution of mechanics in the face of the brainless parse monkeys is largely just that-- a myth.

There are parse monkeys that tunnel vision-- but they are not usually the top dps in the group, and they almost always get roundly scolded by the lead if they much up mechanics because they were parsing.

I think some of this comes from mmos where you can skip mechanics with high dps and therefore ignore them. But in general I agree that typically people that are keen on perfecting their rotation are also the same perfectionists about mechanics too.

Galeriano

SkaiFaith wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Because some elite players feel threatened by a small minority of players who were able to exploit heavy attack builds to reach numbers that are not achievable by the average user who is either disabled / or a casual player who wants a more similar combat to Skyrim (I fall into both of these ) I hit currently 60k on a trial parse dummy and that works for me I can kill world bosses and do most dungeons ok.

Even tho 2 bar builds out perform and those who got High numbers with 1 bar were already experience high end 2 bar parsers. But here we are.

Wao. This made me realize - people who argue against HA builds claim that "it's not fair that the best HA 1bar parse outperform the middle-high LA 2bars parses", when it's an unfair comparison to begin with. Why aren't we comparing the best parses on both sides, and if considering the middle parses on 2bars we still compare them to the best 1bars instead of the more rightful middle 1bar parses?

Why a middle player should be compared with a top player? It seems people assumes everyone using 1bar can achieve the same top results but reality says something different. 1bar HA users more often than not aren't super optimised - some are, for sure, not everyone and I bet not even the majority. Most are casuals, the targeted audience. So why pretend they are top players to apply a not needed nerf?
Nerfing based on the 1% makes no sense.

That's a wierd realization You had than. I havn't seen anyone comparing top LA setup to a medium HA setup. Usually both setups are compared at similar level either highest or average. If anything I've actually seen comments where average one bar HA setups were compared to top two bar setups.
Mid tier two bar player is achieving worse results than mid tier one bar player and that is one of the main main issues with one bar HA setups, that they eliminated a sense to bring anything else.

It's pretty ironic that You are saying that nerfing based on 1% makes no sense when many people who defend one bar HA setups are using top 1% of playerbase and their parses to claim that two bar LA setups are way stronger so HA shouldn't be touched. So it seems like nerfing something based on 1% of playerbase makes no sense but using the same 1% as main argument to defend HA setups is fine.

FantasticFreddie

AScarlato wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

disintegr8 wrote: »

I suggest that a fair portion of the 'hate' is elitist - some people have put a lot of effort into perfecting their weaving rotations and the thought that some Johnny come lately can match it without too much hard work upsets them.

Another part of the problem is the game trying to balance PVP and PVE with the same sets and the same skills - you bring a string set/item out for PVE and it negatively impacts PVP, and vice versa.

As for trials, the trial runner/organizer has the right to accept and reject anything they want, without having to justify it to anyone. If they are unreasonable, they'll very quickly struggle to fill a trial, if they run good trials, people will be eager to join. if you join a trial guild and start debating why this and why that, you'll be looking for another guild very quickly.

Whatever build you want to run, you run, but if you want to run an unpopular build in harder content, you may have to run your own trials. DLC vet trials require teamwork and a team performance, who cares how much DPS you put out if the group keeps wiping.

A pet peeve of mine is people who put forth this false narrative, where they either imply or outright say that people with lower dps are better at mechanics than people with high dps, often saying things like oh it doesn't matter how good your dps is if you can't do mechanics!
Well, this is true, but I will say this: its been my experience that the higher dps players are also the best at mechanics. This is not a hard and fast rule, and you will have both lower dps players who are good at mechanics, and higher dps players who are bad at them but as a rule? The higher dps players are also the best at mechanics. And, if you think about it-- it makes sense. Of course the people who put the most time and effort in and have the fastest reaction time are going to be best at getting the bash, noticing the portal is up and since most portal mechanics in this game is a mini game of dps, of course the highest dps are going to be best at portals.

And, when you have a player that is amazing at mechanics but parses low both on a dummy and in content, 9 times out of 10 they main another role and only dd casually.

The myth of the low dps player that saves the day with flawless execution of mechanics in the face of the brainless parse monkeys is largely just that-- a myth.

There are parse monkeys that tunnel vision-- but they are not usually the top dps in the group, and they almost always get roundly scolded by the lead if they much up mechanics because they were parsing.

I think some of this comes from mmos where you can skip mechanics with high dps and therefore ignore them. But in general I agree that typically people that are keen on perfecting their rotation are also the same perfectionists about mechanics too.

As someone who wiped repeatedly on vDSR hm last nighr because one dd kept missing their bash because they were still on boss--- and it's the one dd that's underperforming at literally all the things....someone come tell him that the low dps players are better at mechanics because he missed that part of the handbook LOL

But tbf that mechanic is soooo unforgiving

AScarlato

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

disintegr8 wrote: »

I suggest that a fair portion of the 'hate' is elitist - some people have put a lot of effort into perfecting their weaving rotations and the thought that some Johnny come lately can match it without too much hard work upsets them.

Another part of the problem is the game trying to balance PVP and PVE with the same sets and the same skills - you bring a string set/item out for PVE and it negatively impacts PVP, and vice versa.

As for trials, the trial runner/organizer has the right to accept and reject anything they want, without having to justify it to anyone. If they are unreasonable, they'll very quickly struggle to fill a trial, if they run good trials, people will be eager to join. if you join a trial guild and start debating why this and why that, you'll be looking for another guild very quickly.

Whatever build you want to run, you run, but if you want to run an unpopular build in harder content, you may have to run your own trials. DLC vet trials require teamwork and a team performance, who cares how much DPS you put out if the group keeps wiping.

A pet peeve of mine is people who put forth this false narrative, where they either imply or outright say that people with lower dps are better at mechanics than people with high dps, often saying things like oh it doesn't matter how good your dps is if you can't do mechanics!
Well, this is true, but I will say this: its been my experience that the higher dps players are also the best at mechanics. This is not a hard and fast rule, and you will have both lower dps players who are good at mechanics, and higher dps players who are bad at them but as a rule? The higher dps players are also the best at mechanics. And, if you think about it-- it makes sense. Of course the people who put the most time and effort in and have the fastest reaction time are going to be best at getting the bash, noticing the portal is up and since most portal mechanics in this game is a mini game of dps, of course the highest dps are going to be best at portals.

And, when you have a player that is amazing at mechanics but parses low both on a dummy and in content, 9 times out of 10 they main another role and only dd casually.

The myth of the low dps player that saves the day with flawless execution of mechanics in the face of the brainless parse monkeys is largely just that-- a myth.

There are parse monkeys that tunnel vision-- but they are not usually the top dps in the group, and they almost always get roundly scolded by the lead if they much up mechanics because they were parsing.

I think some of this comes from mmos where you can skip mechanics with high dps and therefore ignore them. But in general I agree that typically people that are keen on perfecting their rotation are also the same perfectionists about mechanics too.

As someone who wiped repeatedly on vDSR hm last nighr because one dd kept missing their bash because they were still on boss--- and it's the one dd that's underperforming at literally all the things....someone come tell him that the low dps players are better at mechanics because he missed that part of the handbook LOL

But tbf that mechanic is soooo unforgiving

Maybe he needs to be put on an Oakensorc lol

Galeriano

Kusto wrote: »

I don't hate HA builds but I don't allow them in my raids. It wouldn't be fair to others who put in the time and effort to learn rotation and weaving only to get outparsed by someone holding down 1 button.
It should definitely get nerfed some more. Currently it's only creating toxicity. People can still use it in vet content if tops at someting like 50-60k.

That's a bit overdramatic. Your raids are Your buiseness and You can exclude whoever You want but that doesn't mean game itself should exclude people with less skill. 50-60k would be too low.

spartaxoxo

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

2 bar builds are only better if you have the skill to make them better. Then there are others that want to gatekeep trials so they can think others think of the titles as prestigious. The irony is that the nerf debates have actually lowered the prestige of those titles. They have laid bare how little many players think of the trial mechanics.

I used to think those trials were really hard and that those players hadn't just got good dummy numbers but they had actually overcome some very difficult mechanics. Apparently that was wrong and the trial mechs are trivial. Which makes me question why they have the damage requirements in the first place if they are so easy to do when you have damage? Might as well nerf those trials.

Which mechanics?

Some older trials can be burned through without obeying mechs, but newer trials are all portal this and circle that, and those mechanics definitely need to be obeyed.

All of them. I see plenty of comments like "EZ Hard mode achievements with Oakensoul." Oakensoul only simplifies the damage, it makes no changes to the mechanics. So if damage is the only measurement of what makes a trial "easy" then the mechanics themselves must be trivial. All of the posts saying that it's easy to beat a hard mode have convinced me they should just nerf the trials. Many of the people able to beat them don't consider the mechs hard, so why should damage be a gatekeeper at all? Just nerf them down so it's just as easy for everyone. And then we don't have to keep introducing alternative builds only to nerf them down. It ends the roller coaster once and for all.

spartaxoxo

Kusto wrote: »

I don't hate HA builds but I don't allow them in my raids. It wouldn't be fair to others who put in the time and effort to learn rotation and weaving only to get outparsed by someone holding down 1 button.
It should definitely get nerfed some more. Currently it's only creating toxicity. People can still use it in vet content if tops at someting like 50-60k.

50k is too low for vet content. No, you couldn't use it in vet content at that damage level. No raid group takes people into challenging content with damage that low.

maxjapank

OsUfi wrote: »

I don't hate HA...I feel it is somewhat overpowered for holding down one mouse button.

While some may say it's simpler, it is much more than "holding down one mouse button." There are also action timers to watch for the same as 2-bar builds. There is also a certain time to use other skills between the heavy attack channels just as you would doing light attacks. Not doing so hits your overall dps output.

Not having 2 bars also limits the amount of skills to choose from. Thus, there are times when you have to take out a skill and re-slot another.

Lastly, heavy attacks have a wind up time or a channel. As most are using a lighting staff, I'll go with channel. While channeling, you are snared. This makes it much more difficult to get out of damage or one-shot mechanics. Two bar builds using light attack with instant cast abilities can move quickly while maintaining dps output. Heavy attack builds cannot always do this. Sometime they must stop mid-channel to move, which results in a dps loss.

I honestly don't see the need to nerf heavy attacks and storm master at all. The usual heavy attack user will never be able to output near the same amount of dps as a 2 bar user.

FantasticFreddie

spartaxoxo wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

2 bar builds are only better if you have the skill to make them better. Then there are others that want to gatekeep trials so they can think others think of the titles as prestigious. The irony is that the nerf debates have actually lowered the prestige of those titles. They have laid bare how little many players think of the trial mechanics.

I used to think those trials were really hard and that those players hadn't just got good dummy numbers but they had actually overcome some very difficult mechanics. Apparently that was wrong and the trial mechs are trivial. Which makes me question why they have the damage requirements in the first place if they are so easy to do when you have damage? Might as well nerf those trials.

Which mechanics?

Some older trials can be burned through without obeying mechs, but newer trials are all portal this and circle that, and those mechanics definitely need to be obeyed.

All of them. I see plenty of comments like "EZ Hard mode achievements with Oakensoul." Oakensoul only simplifies the damage, it makes no changes to the mechanics. So if damage is the only measurement of what makes a trial "easy" then the mechanics themselves must be trivial. All of the posts saying that it's easy to beat a hard mode have convinced me they should just nerf the trials. Many of the people able to beat them don't consider the mechs hard, so why should damage be a gatekeeper at all? Just nerf them down so it's just as easy for everyone. And then we don't have to keep introducing alternative builds only to nerf them down. It ends the roller coaster once and for all.

[snip] Trials are too easy, so nerf them? What?

[edited for baiting]

Kusto

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

I don't hate HA builds but I don't allow them in my raids. It wouldn't be fair to others who put in the time and effort to learn rotation and weaving only to get outparsed by someone holding down 1 button.
It should definitely get nerfed some more. Currently it's only creating toxicity. People can still use it in vet content if tops at someting like 50-60k.

50k is too low for vet content. No, you couldn't use it in vet content at that damage level. No raid group takes people into challenging content with damage that low.

It's too low for HMs, I was talking about just vet trials. Craglorn pugs clear vSS, vRG, vKA, vCR etc every day. On PC/NA those are pugged non stop. Do you think everyone hits 100k lol.
vSS Yolnahkriin is the closest fight to target dummy. Average pug groups only hit 300k there and clear just fine.

Turtle_Bot

xthrshx wrote: »

I don’t hate heavy attack builds or the people who enjoy them, but I do hate the philosophy that says heavy attack builds should be as powerful as light attack weaving.

Skill should be rewarded in games. A harder rotation should produce more damage. It gives you something to strive for. If a one-bar HA build does 95% of the damage done by a two-bar build with flawless weaving, what’s even the point? Where’s the reward for your effort and practice?

Then good news, HA builds, which are currently, maxing out with 30k LESS dps (or roughly 77% damage of traditional builds) than the 2 bar LA weaving builds max out at, at their peak.

With the slight nerf proposed, they will be doing roughly 35k less damage than traditional LA weaving builds for a grand, eye watering, gamebreakingly massive total max dps of 73% of the max damage of traditional LA weaving builds at their peak potential (assuming traditional builds cap out at exactly 130k only and don't go above that, which we all know they can and frequently do).

To me, this roughly 70% cap of the damage of LA weaving builds does not seem all that game breaking let alone even an issue at all. It still leaves a lot of potential dps to strive for by learning the more complicated LA weaving builds, but is also in a good spot to allow players the opportunity to learn and clear content and contribute to the group while they learn those higher end builds (and perhaps even enjoy the content enough that they want to get into more of that content including using 2 bar LA weaving builds instead of feeling like they aren't contributing at all).

Also, outside of proccing tri-focus off NPCs in IC, which is a completely separate issue that is easily fixed by making tri-focus only deal its splash damage to monsters, the build itself is very mediocre in PvP where it actually directly impacts players.

The whole (non)issue surrounding HA builds has been severely blown out of proportion imo, by both sides. The build was fine as it was, maybe a slight adjustment (which its getting) but nothing major realistically needed to be changed like so many were calling for.

isadoraisacat

AScarlato wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

I don't hate HA builds but I don't allow them in my raids. It wouldn't be fair to others who put in the time and effort to learn rotation and weaving only to get outparsed by someone holding down 1 button.
It should definitely get nerfed some more. Currently it's only creating toxicity. People can still use it in vet content if tops at someting like 50-60k.

You don’t hate them but gatekeep them and want everyone who uses them nerfed. Okay.

AScarlato wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

I don't hate HA builds but I don't allow them in my raids. It wouldn't be fair to others who put in the time and effort to learn rotation and weaving only to get outparsed by someone holding down 1 button.
It should definitely get nerfed some more. Currently it's only creating toxicity. People can still use it in vet content if tops at someting like 50-60k.

You don’t hate them but gatekeep them and want everyone who uses them nerfed. Okay.

Yep this is the exact problem that’s going on now, no wonder there is a divide among players.

Lylith

nerfing ha again?

marvelous.

i suppose they'll dump on sorcs and templars again, too, yes?

Soarora

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

xthrshx wrote: »

I don’t hate heavy attack builds or the people who enjoy them, but I do hate the philosophy that says heavy attack builds should be as powerful as light attack weaving.

Skill should be rewarded in games. A harder rotation should produce more damage. It gives you something to strive for. If a one-bar HA build does 95% of the damage done by a two-bar build with flawless weaving, what’s even the point? Where’s the reward for your effort and practice?

Then good news, HA builds, which are currently, maxing out with 30k LESS dps (or roughly 77% damage of traditional builds) than the 2 bar LA weaving builds max out at, at their peak.

With the slight nerf proposed, they will be doing roughly 35k less damage than traditional LA weaving builds for a grand, eye watering, gamebreakingly massive total max dps of 73% of the max damage of traditional LA weaving builds at their peak potential (assuming traditional builds cap out at exactly 130k only and don't go above that, which we all know they can and frequently do).

To me, this roughly 70% cap of the damage of LA weaving builds does not seem all that game breaking let alone even an issue at all. It still leaves a lot of potential dps to strive for by learning the more complicated LA weaving builds, but is also in a good spot to allow players the opportunity to learn and clear content and contribute to the group while they learn those higher end builds (and perhaps even enjoy the content enough that they want to get into more of that content including using 2 bar LA weaving builds instead of feeling like they aren't contributing at all).

Also, outside of proccing tri-focus off NPCs in IC, which is a completely separate issue that is easily fixed by making tri-focus only deal its splash damage to monsters, the build itself is very mediocre in PvP where it actually directly impacts players.

The whole (non)issue surrounding HA builds has been severely blown out of proportion imo, by both sides. The build was fine as it was, maybe a slight adjustment (which its getting) but nothing major realistically needed to be changed like so many were calling for.

Read comment #54 on page 2. I explain why this "but HA maxxes out at so much less dps than LA builds!" reasoning means absolutely nothing.

isadoraisacat

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

I don't hate HA builds but I don't allow them in my raids. It wouldn't be fair to others who put in the time and effort to learn rotation and weaving only to get outparsed by someone holding down 1 button.
It should definitely get nerfed some more. Currently it's only creating toxicity. People can still use it in vet content if tops at someting like 50-60k.

50k is too low for vet content. No, you couldn't use it in vet content at that damage level. No raid group takes people into challenging content with damage that low.

I’m getting 60 k now on a trial
Dummy pre nerf.. after nerf I’m not going to get that so I’m already a one bar build that’s already to low for vet and will be sucking wind even more after the nerf. But sure this guy wants to nerf it more because the build creates “toxicity” and not the elitists trying to gatekeep how others plays a video game they paid for and game that some of us paid thousands of dollars into. Ok than.

Soarora

isadoraisacat wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

I don't hate HA builds but I don't allow them in my raids. It wouldn't be fair to others who put in the time and effort to learn rotation and weaving only to get outparsed by someone holding down 1 button.
It should definitely get nerfed some more. Currently it's only creating toxicity. People can still use it in vet content if tops at someting like 50-60k.

You don’t hate them but gatekeep them and want everyone who uses them nerfed. Okay.

Yep this is the exact problem that’s going on now, no wonder there is a divide among players.

Honestly, I wish gatekept groups existed. But I don't know of any. Why? Well because then I'd be leaving all of you alone, wouldn't I? Can't complain about something I don't see. If I didn't have to hear people talking about how a new group cleared a trial trifecta in all HAs, how to optimize HAs, just do HAs to farm it's easy and takes no thought, looking for HA oakensorc only for whatever, how the build is so easy and survivable, every vAS run requiring oakensoul... ALL. THE. TIME. I would not feel like I'm going insane. But I do. And I cannot escape. Until I either do find a gatekept group or endgamers stop their shenanigans. Or I quit. But quitting because of this is stupid.

Kusto

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

xthrshx wrote: »

I don’t hate heavy attack builds or the people who enjoy them, but I do hate the philosophy that says heavy attack builds should be as powerful as light attack weaving.

Skill should be rewarded in games. A harder rotation should produce more damage. It gives you something to strive for. If a one-bar HA build does 95% of the damage done by a two-bar build with flawless weaving, what’s even the point? Where’s the reward for your effort and practice?

Then good news, HA builds, which are currently, maxing out with 30k LESS dps (or roughly 77% damage of traditional builds) than the 2 bar LA weaving builds max out at, at their peak.

With the slight nerf proposed, they will be doing roughly 35k less damage than traditional LA weaving builds for a grand, eye watering, gamebreakingly massive total max dps of 73% of the max damage of traditional LA weaving builds at their peak potential (assuming traditional builds cap out at exactly 130k only and don't go above that, which we all know they can and frequently do).

To me, this roughly 70% cap of the damage of LA weaving builds does not seem all that game breaking let alone even an issue at all. It still leaves a lot of potential dps to strive for by learning the more complicated LA weaving builds, but is also in a good spot to allow players the opportunity to learn and clear content and contribute to the group while they learn those higher end builds (and perhaps even enjoy the content enough that they want to get into more of that content including using 2 bar LA weaving builds instead of feeling like they aren't contributing at all).

Also, outside of proccing tri-focus off NPCs in IC, which is a completely separate issue that is easily fixed by making tri-focus only deal its splash damage to monsters, the build itself is very mediocre in PvP where it actually directly impacts players.

The whole (non)issue surrounding HA builds has been severely blown out of proportion imo, by both sides. The build was fine as it was, maybe a slight adjustment (which its getting) but nothing major realistically needed to be changed like so many were calling for.

People need to stop bringing up the 130k for la builds because only very few can get even remotely close to that. You make it sound like everyone who la weavers and has 2 bar build gets those numbers. Most people can't even hit 60-70k. That's why oaken ha is so popular coz they can now do more. HA currently caps at slightly over 100k on live and in 90s on pts. And sure, not everyone can hit those numbers but they are not far. If you have the correct gear, cp, traits, mundus, then you WILL hit 70-80k by just holding down 1 button. But alot of people are like" I cant "and refuse to use the exact build needed to hit that.
Its easier to get closer to the HA ceiling than the 2 bar ceiling.

Balance is achieved when HA dps is brought down to where the AVERAGE player is with 2 bar build, NOT what the 0.00001% can dummy parse. And even then HA has slight advantage in content due to being tanky, all aoe, ranged and no sustain worries.

isadoraisacat

Soarora wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

I don't hate HA builds but I don't allow them in my raids. It wouldn't be fair to others who put in the time and effort to learn rotation and weaving only to get outparsed by someone holding down 1 button.
It should definitely get nerfed some more. Currently it's only creating toxicity. People can still use it in vet content if tops at someting like 50-60k.

You don’t hate them but gatekeep them and want everyone who uses them nerfed. Okay.

Yep this is the exact problem that’s going on now, no wonder there is a divide among players.

Honestly, I wish gatekept groups existed. But I don't know of any. Why? Well because then I'd be leaving all of you alone, wouldn't I? Can't complain about something I don't see. If I didn't have to hear people talking about how a new group cleared a trial trifecta in all HAs, how to optimize HAs, just do HAs to farm it's easy and takes no thought, looking for HA oakensorc only for whatever, how the build is so easy and survivable, every vAS run requiring oakensoul... ALL. THE. TIME. I would not feel like I'm going insane. But I do. And I cannot escape. Until I either do find a gatekept group or endgamers stop their shenanigans. Or I quit. But quitting because of this is stupid.

Hard to follow what you mean. But my point is negativity is an issue in this game. Bullying / elitism and to put in in the words of my 7 year old niece “you big meanie”. It’s just not nice behavior from player to player. The elder scrolls series is a nerdy fantasy series (and I hold that nerd badge with pride ) it’s not an esport. I feel like these esport types are making this game aggressive and removing the fantasy / role play / questing / elder scrolls feeel. It really reminds me of being the 5 foot kid in gym class and having the big jock throw the dodge ball in my face and call
Me certain slurs I can’t say here.


It comes off so negative / bullying and not inclusive.

We live in a society now where people have fought so hard for diversity and inclusion and for some reason it just isn’t happening in video games… at least online ones. And I think this is the reason why Skyrim or other elder scrolls players are hesitant to try this game out.

isadoraisacat

Kusto wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

xthrshx wrote: »

I don’t hate heavy attack builds or the people who enjoy them, but I do hate the philosophy that says heavy attack builds should be as powerful as light attack weaving.

Skill should be rewarded in games. A harder rotation should produce more damage. It gives you something to strive for. If a one-bar HA build does 95% of the damage done by a two-bar build with flawless weaving, what’s even the point? Where’s the reward for your effort and practice?

Then good news, HA builds, which are currently, maxing out with 30k LESS dps (or roughly 77% damage of traditional builds) than the 2 bar LA weaving builds max out at, at their peak.

With the slight nerf proposed, they will be doing roughly 35k less damage than traditional LA weaving builds for a grand, eye watering, gamebreakingly massive total max dps of 73% of the max damage of traditional LA weaving builds at their peak potential (assuming traditional builds cap out at exactly 130k only and don't go above that, which we all know they can and frequently do).

To me, this roughly 70% cap of the damage of LA weaving builds does not seem all that game breaking let alone even an issue at all. It still leaves a lot of potential dps to strive for by learning the more complicated LA weaving builds, but is also in a good spot to allow players the opportunity to learn and clear content and contribute to the group while they learn those higher end builds (and perhaps even enjoy the content enough that they want to get into more of that content including using 2 bar LA weaving builds instead of feeling like they aren't contributing at all).

Also, outside of proccing tri-focus off NPCs in IC, which is a completely separate issue that is easily fixed by making tri-focus only deal its splash damage to monsters, the build itself is very mediocre in PvP where it actually directly impacts players.

The whole (non)issue surrounding HA builds has been severely blown out of proportion imo, by both sides. The build was fine as it was, maybe a slight adjustment (which its getting) but nothing major realistically needed to be changed like so many were calling for.

People need to stop bringing up the 130k for la builds because only very few can get even remotely close to that. You make it sound like everyone who la weavers and has 2 bar build gets those numbers. Most people can't even hit 60-70k. That's why oaken ha is so popular coz they can now do more. HA currently caps at slightly over 100k on live and in 90s on pts. And sure, not everyone can hit those numbers but they are not far. If you have the correct gear, cp, traits, mundus, then you WILL hit 70-80k by just holding down 1 button. But alot of people are like" I cant "and refuse to use the exact build needed to hit that.
Its easier to get closer to the HA ceiling than the 2 bar ceiling.

Balance is achieved when HA dps is brought down to where the AVERAGE player is with 2 bar build, NOT what the 0.00001% can dummy parse. And even then HA has slight advantage in content due to being tanky, all aoe, ranged and no sustain worries.

Lol I know I can’t I can barely hit 60k on a trial dummy. It’s like comparing Usain Bolt to the cashier at Walmart.

Soarora

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

I don't hate HA builds but I don't allow them in my raids. It wouldn't be fair to others who put in the time and effort to learn rotation and weaving only to get outparsed by someone holding down 1 button.
It should definitely get nerfed some more. Currently it's only creating toxicity. People can still use it in vet content if tops at someting like 50-60k.

You don’t hate them but gatekeep them and want everyone who uses them nerfed. Okay.

Yep this is the exact problem that’s going on now, no wonder there is a divide among players.

Honestly, I wish gatekept groups existed. But I don't know of any. Why? Well because then I'd be leaving all of you alone, wouldn't I? Can't complain about something I don't see. If I didn't have to hear people talking about how a new group cleared a trial trifecta in all HAs, how to optimize HAs, just do HAs to farm it's easy and takes no thought, looking for HA oakensorc only for whatever, how the build is so easy and survivable, every vAS run requiring oakensoul... ALL. THE. TIME. I would not feel like I'm going insane. But I do. And I cannot escape. Until I either do find a gatekept group or endgamers stop their shenanigans. Or I quit. But quitting because of this is stupid.

Hard to follow what you mean. But my point is negativity is an issue in this game. Bullying / elitism and to put in in the words of my 7 year old niece “you big meanie”. It’s just not nice behavior from player to player. The elder scrolls series is a nerdy fantasy series (and I hold that nerd badge with pride ) it’s not an esport. I feel like these esport types are making this game aggressive and removing the fantasy / role play / questing / elder scrolls feeel. It really reminds me of being the 5 foot kid in gym class and having the big jock throw the dodge ball in my face and call
Me certain slurs I can’t say here.


It comes off so negative / bullying and not inclusive.

We live in a society now where people have fought so hard for diversity and inclusion and for some reason it just isn’t happening in video games… at least online ones. And I think this is the reason why Skyrim or other elder scrolls players are hesitant to try this came out.

People absolutely should not be bullied. What I'm saying is that really my whole problem with HA has nothing to do with most HA players it's the endgamers I'm surrounded by. They're constantly complaining about how the build is easy and constantly trying to optimize it to get it to complete all content and it's not possible to avoid. I can't just "go play with people who align with your values", it's several guilds. It's almost everyone I know. (Edit: and zone chat! I JUST saw someone look for an oakensoul DPS for something that an oakensoul DPS is not "required" for...!!) I wish I was in a guild that excluded HAs not because of excluding people like you but to exclude endgamers who are putting themselves in a land of oakensorc-ha-with-this-one-build-only and then proceeding to complain about it. It's too much negativity on my side of the argument too. If endgamers weren't complaining about HAs and excluding traditional builds literally everywhere I look, I wouldn't care what HAs are capable of.

SkaiFaith

Galeriano wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Because some elite players feel threatened by a small minority of players who were able to exploit heavy attack builds to reach numbers that are not achievable by the average user who is either disabled / or a casual player who wants a more similar combat to Skyrim (I fall into both of these ) I hit currently 60k on a trial parse dummy and that works for me I can kill world bosses and do most dungeons ok.

Even tho 2 bar builds out perform and those who got High numbers with 1 bar were already experience high end 2 bar parsers. But here we are.

Wao. This made me realize - people who argue against HA builds claim that "it's not fair that the best HA 1bar parse outperform the middle-high LA 2bars parses", when it's an unfair comparison to begin with. Why aren't we comparing the best parses on both sides, and if considering the middle parses on 2bars we still compare them to the best 1bars instead of the more rightful middle 1bar parses?

Why a middle player should be compared with a top player? It seems people assumes everyone using 1bar can achieve the same top results but reality says something different. 1bar HA users more often than not aren't super optimised - some are, for sure, not everyone and I bet not even the majority. Most are casuals, the targeted audience. So why pretend they are top players to apply a not needed nerf?
Nerfing based on the 1% makes no sense.

That's a wierd realization You had than. I havn't seen anyone comparing top LA setup to a medium HA setup. Usually both setups are compared at similar level either highest or average. If anything I've actually seen comments where average one bar HA setups were compared to top two bar setups.
Mid tier two bar player is achieving worse results than mid tier one bar player and that is one of the main main issues with one bar HA setups, that they eliminated a sense to bring anything else.

It's pretty ironic that You are saying that nerfing based on 1% makes no sense when many people who defend one bar HA setups are using top 1% of playerbase and their parses to claim that two bar LA setups are way stronger so HA shouldn't be touched. So it seems like nerfing something based on 1% of playerbase makes no sense but using the same 1% as main argument to defend HA setups is fine.

I feel you're doing some mental gymnastics with this one.

First, the situation that's brought up the most in these threads is people with mid 2bars accusing people with top 1bar. And if we have to define "mid" on both sides: mid 2bars make 65-80K while mid 1bar make 55-70K. So no, 1bar doesn't surpass 2 bars in an average scenario. (You could say it's easier to achieve but that's not a valid argument against it, since it's exactly the whole point this play style was created for).

Second, 1 bar people keep referring to top 1% 2bars parses exactly because 2bars people keep referring to top 1% 1bar parses. It's just a congruent reaction. Not a single 1 bar guy is asking for a nerf to top 1% 2bars users, while the other way around is... You see? (Hence the reason of the title of this thread i suppose)

Edited to add details.

Sheezabeast

I'm just going to address the elephant in the room, as politely and bluntly as I can. The entire crux of the agitation comes from the blanket of "accessibility" ZOS is using. And how there is a big difference between people with disabilities and physical limitations falling under that blanket, and people who simply need to practice their rotation and are not that skilled at DPS using the same "accessibility" claim to use the one bar builds. If you point out the lack of skill it takes, how it might be 'dumbing down the game' suddenly you are not just addressing people who legit *can* improve but are using this simple way to get easy numbers, and people who are physically or mentally limited using this accessible build.

CP5

But an Oaken build is fairly easy to reach its ceiling because of the simplicity of the build and rotation, the ability to que up abilities during heavy attacks, and the fact that a majority of the build comes down to getting and upgrading the right gear. The slow pace of the build allows people to much more easily reach the top end of what it can do, whereas a light attack build requires much more practice to get the timing down, plus more abilities to properly juggle to reach its peak, even if you have all the gear sorted.

If a heavy attack build can break 80k dps by leaving a weight on their left mouse button, and a light attack build needs to weave 200+ light attacks and abilities, without the bonus of infinite sustain and cleave damage (as is an example brought up in another thread) and reaches a slightly higher level, one of those points was a lot easier to reach. It isn't a "you need to earn your dps," it's that, "the floor for heavy attack builds is higher, and the ceiling is easier to reach." So no, comparing the peak of each type isn't a fair comparison, given the widely different degrees of effort required to reach each ceiling.

spartaxoxo

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

2 bar builds are only better if you have the skill to make them better. Then there are others that want to gatekeep trials so they can think others think of the titles as prestigious. The irony is that the nerf debates have actually lowered the prestige of those titles. They have laid bare how little many players think of the trial mechanics.

I used to think those trials were really hard and that those players hadn't just got good dummy numbers but they had actually overcome some very difficult mechanics. Apparently that was wrong and the trial mechs are trivial. Which makes me question why they have the damage requirements in the first place if they are so easy to do when you have damage? Might as well nerf those trials.

Which mechanics?

Some older trials can be burned through without obeying mechs, but newer trials are all portal this and circle that, and those mechanics definitely need to be obeyed.

All of them. I see plenty of comments like "EZ Hard mode achievements with Oakensoul." Oakensoul only simplifies the damage, it makes no changes to the mechanics. So if damage is the only measurement of what makes a trial "easy" then the mechanics themselves must be trivial. All of the posts saying that it's easy to beat a hard mode have convinced me they should just nerf the trials. Many of the people able to beat them don't consider the mechs hard, so why should damage be a gatekeeper at all? Just nerf them down so it's just as easy for everyone. And then we don't have to keep introducing alternative builds only to nerf them down. It ends the roller coaster once and for all.

[snip] Trials are too easy, so nerf them? What?

[snip] That's not what I said remotely. I said if "trials mechanics don't matter at all (as tons of vet players have argued by claiming ez hard mode exists) once you have high damage, then there's no point in them being balanced as they are and they might as well be nerfed to settle the build argument once and for all" which is a vastly different argument.

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

Turtle_Bot

Soarora wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

xthrshx wrote: »

I don’t hate heavy attack builds or the people who enjoy them, but I do hate the philosophy that says heavy attack builds should be as powerful as light attack weaving.

Skill should be rewarded in games. A harder rotation should produce more damage. It gives you something to strive for. If a one-bar HA build does 95% of the damage done by a two-bar build with flawless weaving, what’s even the point? Where’s the reward for your effort and practice?

Then good news, HA builds, which are currently, maxing out with 30k LESS dps (or roughly 77% damage of traditional builds) than the 2 bar LA weaving builds max out at, at their peak.

With the slight nerf proposed, they will be doing roughly 35k less damage than traditional LA weaving builds for a grand, eye watering, gamebreakingly massive total max dps of 73% of the max damage of traditional LA weaving builds at their peak potential (assuming traditional builds cap out at exactly 130k only and don't go above that, which we all know they can and frequently do).

To me, this roughly 70% cap of the damage of LA weaving builds does not seem all that game breaking let alone even an issue at all. It still leaves a lot of potential dps to strive for by learning the more complicated LA weaving builds, but is also in a good spot to allow players the opportunity to learn and clear content and contribute to the group while they learn those higher end builds (and perhaps even enjoy the content enough that they want to get into more of that content including using 2 bar LA weaving builds instead of feeling like they aren't contributing at all).

Also, outside of proccing tri-focus off NPCs in IC, which is a completely separate issue that is easily fixed by making tri-focus only deal its splash damage to monsters, the build itself is very mediocre in PvP where it actually directly impacts players.

The whole (non)issue surrounding HA builds has been severely blown out of proportion imo, by both sides. The build was fine as it was, maybe a slight adjustment (which its getting) but nothing major realistically needed to be changed like so many were calling for.

Read comment #54 on page 2. I explain why this "but HA maxxes out at so much less dps than LA builds!" reasoning means absolutely nothing.

It means absolutely everything when people are trying to compare top end HA dps to mid range LA dps as their whole reason for nerfing the build.

They are comparing apples to oranges to try and justify their own opinion of the build as fact.

Mid range dps for a HA build is roughly 70k, again, roughly 20% below most mid range LA dps which sits around 70-90k.

As for those claiming holding down left mouse button gives 80k+, that is complete lies and they know it, they just constantly perpetuate that myth because it confirms their own bias against the build.

The closest I've seen to this value is a top end player (the same player that gets those 130k+ parses) got 75k by only holding left mouse button, so once again, it is entirely relevant in bringing up those 130k parses on LA weaving builds since those are the players that are getting these top end results from HA builds as well.

Turtle_Bot

Kusto wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

xthrshx wrote: »

I don’t hate heavy attack builds or the people who enjoy them, but I do hate the philosophy that says heavy attack builds should be as powerful as light attack weaving.

Skill should be rewarded in games. A harder rotation should produce more damage. It gives you something to strive for. If a one-bar HA build does 95% of the damage done by a two-bar build with flawless weaving, what’s even the point? Where’s the reward for your effort and practice?

Then good news, HA builds, which are currently, maxing out with 30k LESS dps (or roughly 77% damage of traditional builds) than the 2 bar LA weaving builds max out at, at their peak.

With the slight nerf proposed, they will be doing roughly 35k less damage than traditional LA weaving builds for a grand, eye watering, gamebreakingly massive total max dps of 73% of the max damage of traditional LA weaving builds at their peak potential (assuming traditional builds cap out at exactly 130k only and don't go above that, which we all know they can and frequently do).

To me, this roughly 70% cap of the damage of LA weaving builds does not seem all that game breaking let alone even an issue at all. It still leaves a lot of potential dps to strive for by learning the more complicated LA weaving builds, but is also in a good spot to allow players the opportunity to learn and clear content and contribute to the group while they learn those higher end builds (and perhaps even enjoy the content enough that they want to get into more of that content including using 2 bar LA weaving builds instead of feeling like they aren't contributing at all).

Also, outside of proccing tri-focus off NPCs in IC, which is a completely separate issue that is easily fixed by making tri-focus only deal its splash damage to monsters, the build itself is very mediocre in PvP where it actually directly impacts players.

The whole (non)issue surrounding HA builds has been severely blown out of proportion imo, by both sides. The build was fine as it was, maybe a slight adjustment (which its getting) but nothing major realistically needed to be changed like so many were calling for.

People need to stop bringing up the 130k for la builds because only very few can get even remotely close to that. You make it sound like everyone who la weavers and has 2 bar build gets those numbers. Most people can't even hit 60-70k. That's why oaken ha is so popular coz they can now do more. HA currently caps at slightly over 100k on live and in 90s on pts. And sure, not everyone can hit those numbers but they are not far. If you have the correct gear, cp, traits, mundus, then you WILL hit 70-80k by just holding down 1 button. But alot of people are like" I cant "and refuse to use the exact build needed to hit that.
Its easier to get closer to the HA ceiling than the 2 bar ceiling.

Balance is achieved when HA dps is brought down to where the AVERAGE player is with 2 bar build, NOT what the 0.00001% can dummy parse. And even then HA has slight advantage in content due to being tanky, all aoe, ranged and no sustain worries.

People will stop bringing up 130k parses when anti-HA people stop bringing up 90k+ HA parses as excuses for nerfing HA builds.

See the issue here? Too many have thrown those same top end HA numbers around as an excuse to nerf a build they have a personal vendetta against, but as soon as the top end numbers for LA builds are mentioned, its all, "you cant bring that up", "those don't count", "it's only the top players that reach those LA numbers" and they completely ignore that its those same top end players reaching those top end numbers for HA builds as well and not the average player that they keep blindly and falsely saying is reaching those numbers.

Turtle_Bot

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Because some elite players feel threatened by a small minority of players who were able to exploit heavy attack builds to reach numbers that are not achievable by the average user who is either disabled / or a casual player who wants a more similar combat to Skyrim (I fall into both of these ) I hit currently 60k on a trial parse dummy and that works for me I can kill world bosses and do most dungeons ok.

Even tho 2 bar builds out perform and those who got High numbers with 1 bar were already experience high end 2 bar parsers. But here we are.

Wao. This made me realize - people who argue against HA builds claim that "it's not fair that the best HA 1bar parse outperform the middle-high LA 2bars parses", when it's an unfair comparison to begin with. Why aren't we comparing the best parses on both sides, and if considering the middle parses on 2bars we still compare them to the best 1bars instead of the more rightful middle 1bar parses?

Why a middle player should be compared with a top player? It seems people assumes everyone using 1bar can achieve the same top results but reality says something different. 1bar HA users more often than not aren't super optimised - some are, for sure, not everyone and I bet not even the majority. Most are casuals, the targeted audience. So why pretend they are top players to apply a not needed nerf?
Nerfing based on the 1% makes no sense.

That's a wierd realization You had than. I havn't seen anyone comparing top LA setup to a medium HA setup. Usually both setups are compared at similar level either highest or average. If anything I've actually seen comments where average one bar HA setups were compared to top two bar setups.
Mid tier two bar player is achieving worse results than mid tier one bar player and that is one of the main main issues with one bar HA setups, that they eliminated a sense to bring anything else.

It's pretty ironic that You are saying that nerfing based on 1% makes no sense when many people who defend one bar HA setups are using top 1% of playerbase and their parses to claim that two bar LA setups are way stronger so HA shouldn't be touched. So it seems like nerfing something based on 1% of playerbase makes no sense but using the same 1% as main argument to defend HA setups is fine.

I feel you're doing some mental gymnastics with this one.

First, the situation that's brought up the most in these threads is people with mid 2bars accusing people with top 1bar. And if we have to define "mid" on both sides: mid 2bars make 65-80K while mid 1bar make 55-70K. So no, 1bar doesn't surpass 2 bars in an average scenario. (You could say it's easier to achieve but that's not a valid argument against it, since it's exactly the whole point this play style was created for).

Second, 1 bar people keep referring to top 1% 2bars parses exactly because 2bars people keep referring to top 1% 1bar parses. It's just a congruent reaction. Not a single 1 bar guy is asking for a nerf to top 1% 2bars users, while the other way around is... You see? (Hence the reason of the title of this thread i suppose)

Edited to add details.

Don't you just love how those who are against HA builds always leave out this fact and every time it's brought up, its nothing but complete denial and deflection.

isadoraisacat

Soarora wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

I don't hate HA builds but I don't allow them in my raids. It wouldn't be fair to others who put in the time and effort to learn rotation and weaving only to get outparsed by someone holding down 1 button.
It should definitely get nerfed some more. Currently it's only creating toxicity. People can still use it in vet content if tops at someting like 50-60k.

You don’t hate them but gatekeep them and want everyone who uses them nerfed. Okay.

Yep this is the exact problem that’s going on now, no wonder there is a divide among players.

Honestly, I wish gatekept groups existed. But I don't know of any. Why? Well because then I'd be leaving all of you alone, wouldn't I? Can't complain about something I don't see. If I didn't have to hear people talking about how a new group cleared a trial trifecta in all HAs, how to optimize HAs, just do HAs to farm it's easy and takes no thought, looking for HA oakensorc only for whatever, how the build is so easy and survivable, every vAS run requiring oakensoul... ALL. THE. TIME. I would not feel like I'm going insane. But I do. And I cannot escape. Until I either do find a gatekept group or endgamers stop their shenanigans. Or I quit. But quitting because of this is stupid.

Hard to follow what you mean. But my point is negativity is an issue in this game. Bullying / elitism and to put in in the words of my 7 year old niece “you big meanie”. It’s just not nice behavior from player to player. The elder scrolls series is a nerdy fantasy series (and I hold that nerd badge with pride ) it’s not an esport. I feel like these esport types are making this game aggressive and removing the fantasy / role play / questing / elder scrolls feeel. It really reminds me of being the 5 foot kid in gym class and having the big jock throw the dodge ball in my face and call
Me certain slurs I can’t say here.


It comes off so negative / bullying and not inclusive.

We live in a society now where people have fought so hard for diversity and inclusion and for some reason it just isn’t happening in video games… at least online ones. And I think this is the reason why Skyrim or other elder scrolls players are hesitant to try this came out.

People absolutely should not be bullied. What I'm saying is that really my whole problem with HA has nothing to do with most HA players it's the endgamers I'm surrounded by. They're constantly complaining about how the build is easy and constantly trying to optimize it to get it to complete all content and it's not possible to avoid. I can't just "go play with people who align with your values", it's several guilds. It's almost everyone I know. (Edit: and zone chat! I JUST saw someone look for an oakensoul DPS for something that an oakensoul DPS is not "required" for...!!) I wish I was in a guild that excluded HAs not because of excluding people like you but to exclude endgamers who are putting themselves in a land of oakensorc-ha-with-this-one-build-only and then proceeding to complain about it. It's too much negativity on my side of the argument too. If endgamers weren't complaining about HAs and excluding traditional builds literally everywhere I look, I wouldn't care what HAs are capable of.

For me it’s the opposite I got laughed out of a dungeon and called terrible and awful for my low cp and HA build. So it must have to do with end gamers. But I’ll never be one if I’m never allowed to progress and get kicked out for my play style so.