Why do some people hate HA?

Vaqual

I think the main problem is that a lot of the oakensorc/HA players are not even willing to understand the side of the people critizing this "playstyle". They like to see themselves as the victims of a poorly designed combat system, whereas the players who actually like the combat are depicted as inhumane edgelords. But if you look at the whole topic very objectively it is easy to see, why the current state of HA builds is a detriment to the game.

1. A large proportion of people who play games derive enjoyment and interest from the level of challenge they face. Someone who is not challenged will likely loose interest. This is not about flexing with titles and achievements, this is about the very basic level of engagement the game will require. The necessary level of challenge can be different for everyone. Very few people find overland challenging and vHM trials are on average the most challenging activities the game has to offer. So the game has to accomodate a wide range of players within these confines.

2. A challenge will be measured by the easiest way to overcome it. Yes, you can handicap yourself to make it harder, but this is mostly viewed as gimmick and not a part of the core game experience. People like to see a power progression from gear, practice and understanding of the game to master a challenge and derive satisfaction from that. Like beating your grandpa at chess or your older sibling at basketball. If there is a trivial way of beating a challenge, said challenge will be devalued.

3. I acknowlegde the fact, that the challenge itself does not have to be to only thing that keeps a player engaged with the game. Rewards, fashion, housing, rp, etc. can also be a source of entertaintment. However a challenge in combat is one of the main aspects many RPGs have in common. Many games are very successful offering higher difficulty. ESOs way of offering this experience is trials. If you are advocating for them to be easier you go directly against the principle that makes them interesting. Many players would rather argue for the opposite and see overland and dungeons made more challenging. ZOS has to find a balance and this is not easy.

So why do I think that many HA players are actually very egocentric in their view of the topic? To sum all of it up: The game allegedly already offers enough challenge to them as it is, whereas others find most content too easy. HA players are not kept from any kind of story content as all trials are available in normal mode. They deliberately want the devs to trivialize the only available content in the game that holds a sliver of difficulty. If something can be beat by holding down one button it is boring. It does not matter how these builds compare to 2-bar builds, no adjustment of relative performance can fix this, as long as they can beat all content. The very fact, that these encounters can be beat without effort, takes away from the challenge (again, not about gatekeeping, just a very basic principle of games). And the worst of it all? All the millions of excuses as to why they can not play without these builds, without even understanding what this is all about.

--> People are not against HA because they don't want you to play trials. They are against it because a game, where you win by holding the left mouse button, is not worth playing.

I hope this is understandable. I enjoy many aspects of the game and for me nothing will really change, no matter how they continue with HA builds. But I found it really annoying to see how little many HA players care for the quality of the game, only to have their 5 minutes with their meaningless vHM achievements. I can only give you this advice: Play the game the way you wanted it to be when you installed it, not for the recognition of other people.

Edit: fixed 1000 typos.

FantasticFreddie

isadoraisacat wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

HazierBlue wrote: »

Hate is a strong word, HA is just too powerful with little to no effort. Balance is needed.

And yet it still is far weaker and 2 bar out performs it.
Trial and dungeon mechanics are the hard part. Not the pew pew button mash. Not to mention heavy attack needs to really know mechanics and positioning as they have less time to dodge.

[snip]

If heavy attack builds are so weak, and light attack builds so easy, then why are heavy attack builds so popular?

Maybe because people want combat that isn’t like a shooter / button masher fighter and combat that feels more like a real elder scrolls game. Maybe people don’t find the weaving bug fun? Ever think people maybe play a game for fun, and don’t want this to be an esport. It’s an elder scrolls game not Fortnite.

[edited to remove quote]

I am specifically talking about vet trials, which is basically the only place people actually start to care what other people wear, in my experience.

I personally find vet trials a lot of fun, and I find oakensorc a lot of fun

But what I don't do is insist on bringing my oakensorc to trials. If I'm a fill, and the group seems chill, I'll ask if they mind an oaken sorc-- and if they say no its cool, I bring something else.

Oakensorc is EASY. It is. And the part you guys are missing is in an organized group not everyone can play the easy roles, and THAT is where the resentment comes in.
You still need supports, you still need dds in buff sets that don't translate well to a 1 bar build, and BECAUSE the ceiling for HA builds is lower than with a traditional build, you then get about half the team working harder for people who are not putting forth an equal amount of effort. If someone has a physical limitation and needs the accommodation of a HA build that's different, but in a regular team, that's a known issue and people are only too happy ro see that person succeed.

Where you get issues is when Player A is busting their butt to maximize their damage and contribution to the group and they see players B and C pressing on button the whole trial.
Player A gets annoyed with players B and C, and starts to feel like they don't actually care about the success of the group.and just want to "play how you want" regardless of the goals of the team.

Meanwhile, player D, who has severe arthritis, has gleefully seen a 20k increase in damage done and is doing better on mechanics than they ever have before and everyone is fine with that.

I’d argue that HA style is harder when it comes to mechanics it’s very hard to block and dodge when you are doing a Channeled attack.

The mechanics are the hard part of trials and vet content. Weaving isn’t hard to do I can weave no problem and 2 bar builds can put perform 1 bar ha builds anyway. The problem is I can’t stand rhythm combat in an elder scrolls game it doesn’t fit. I don’t enjoy the combat so I don’t do it and it hurts my hand which already has issues.

However people are still
Surviving the mechanics, and dodging which is to a hard part. You can argue the buffs from oakensoul keep people more alive and that’s fine, I’ve even said keep the buffs to empower and nerf the survivability that would have been a better balance but they went the other direction.

Do you not know you can cancel a heavy attack at any time?

As someone who plays both, there is no contest: HA is easier as a dd, by a large margin, regardless of the trial.

Of course I know you cancel it at any time. But to take advantage of the plays style and it’s set up you need to do fully charged heavy attacks. It’s not easy to do when you are always dodging.

[snip]

Where is the hubris, strawman argument, and hate for heavy attack playstyle in my post?

So far I've explained both that I have one and use it, find it to be a lot of fun, and put a physically disabled player in it for one of my teams and they are having great success with it.
If I hated the build so bad, why would I do either of those things?

[edited to remove quote]

FantasticFreddie

Also you can argue that heavy attack builds are harder in content all you want, you are simply wrong. The inherent survivability from oakensoul and the heavy armor from Sargents makes them much more able to withstand small hits, almost all oakensorc builds run matriarch as a whopping self heal, not to mention the potions that provide health and armor.
"But what about mechanics?!"
You can dodge and block if you are willing to sacrifice a small amount of damage which is exactly how light attack builds work.
They are easier, and it's not even close.

AScarlato

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Also you can argue that heavy attack builds are harder in content all you want, you are simply wrong. The inherent survivability from oakensoul and the heavy armor from Sargents makes them much more able to withstand small hits, almost all oakensorc builds run matriarch as a whopping self heal, not to mention the potions that provide health and armor.
"But what about mechanics?!"
You can dodge and block if you are willing to sacrifice a small amount of damage which is exactly how light attack builds work.
They are easier, and it's not even close.

My issue is I run this on MagBlade. I don't have a large shield, or any shield at all. My resists are 6K under the numbres often thrown around, and I don't have an HP passive so my HP is several thousand lower than sorcs.

Sounds like they should look at sorcs and not hurt other classes that don't have these things.

jaws343

AScarlato wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Also you can argue that heavy attack builds are harder in content all you want, you are simply wrong. The inherent survivability from oakensoul and the heavy armor from Sargents makes them much more able to withstand small hits, almost all oakensorc builds run matriarch as a whopping self heal, not to mention the potions that provide health and armor.
"But what about mechanics?!"
You can dodge and block if you are willing to sacrifice a small amount of damage which is exactly how light attack builds work.
They are easier, and it's not even close.

My issue is I run this on MagBlade. I don't have a large shield, or any shield at all. My resists are 6K under the numbres often thrown around, and I don't have an HP passive so my HP is several thousand lower than sorcs.

Sounds like they should look at sorcs and not hurt other classes that don't have these things.

Oakensorcs aren't running shields on this either...

FantasticFreddie

AScarlato wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Also you can argue that heavy attack builds are harder in content all you want, you are simply wrong. The inherent survivability from oakensoul and the heavy armor from Sargents makes them much more able to withstand small hits, almost all oakensorc builds run matriarch as a whopping self heal, not to mention the potions that provide health and armor.
"But what about mechanics?!"
You can dodge and block if you are willing to sacrifice a small amount of damage which is exactly how light attack builds work.
They are easier, and it's not even close.

My issue is I run this on MagBlade. I don't have a large shield, or any shield at all. My resists are 6K under the numbres often thrown around, and I don't have an HP passive so my HP is several thousand lower than sorcs.

Sounds like they should look at sorcs and not hurt other classes that don't have these things

Compared to a light attack build on a blade, you are still tankier and have better resistances. The argument this guy is trying to make is that somehow oakensoul builds are harder to play in content, which is a very strange choice is their part.

LunaFlora

jaws343 wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Also you can argue that heavy attack builds are harder in content all you want, you are simply wrong. The inherent survivability from oakensoul and the heavy armor from Sargents makes them much more able to withstand small hits, almost all oakensorc builds run matriarch as a whopping self heal, not to mention the potions that provide health and armor.
"But what about mechanics?!"
You can dodge and block if you are willing to sacrifice a small amount of damage which is exactly how light attack builds work.
They are easier, and it's not even close.

My issue is I run this on MagBlade. I don't have a large shield, or any shield at all. My resists are 6K under the numbres often thrown around, and I don't have an HP passive so my HP is several thousand lower than sorcs.

Sounds like they should look at sorcs and not hurt other classes that don't have these things.

Oakensorcs aren't running shields on this either...

is hardened ward not a shield?

Galeriano

isadoraisacat wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

HazierBlue wrote: »

Hate is a strong word, HA is just too powerful with little to no effort. Balance is needed.

And yet it still is far weaker and 2 bar out performs it.
Trial and dungeon mechanics are the hard part. Not the pew pew button mash. Not to mention heavy attack needs to really know mechanics and positioning as they have less time to dodge.

[snip]

If heavy attack builds are so weak, and light attack builds so easy, then why are heavy attack builds so popular?

Maybe because people want combat that isn’t like a shooter / button masher fighter and combat that feels more like a real elder scrolls game. Maybe people don’t find the weaving bug fun? Ever think people maybe play a game for fun, and don’t want this to be an esport. It’s an elder scrolls game not Fortnite.

[edited to remove quote]

I am specifically talking about vet trials, which is basically the only place people actually start to care what other people wear, in my experience.

I personally find vet trials a lot of fun, and I find oakensorc a lot of fun

But what I don't do is insist on bringing my oakensorc to trials. If I'm a fill, and the group seems chill, I'll ask if they mind an oaken sorc-- and if they say no its cool, I bring something else.

Oakensorc is EASY. It is. And the part you guys are missing is in an organized group not everyone can play the easy roles, and THAT is where the resentment comes in.
You still need supports, you still need dds in buff sets that don't translate well to a 1 bar build, and BECAUSE the ceiling for HA builds is lower than with a traditional build, you then get about half the team working harder for people who are not putting forth an equal amount of effort. If someone has a physical limitation and needs the accommodation of a HA build that's different, but in a regular team, that's a known issue and people are only too happy ro see that person succeed.

Where you get issues is when Player A is busting their butt to maximize their damage and contribution to the group and they see players B and C pressing on button the whole trial.
Player A gets annoyed with players B and C, and starts to feel like they don't actually care about the success of the group.and just want to "play how you want" regardless of the goals of the team.

Meanwhile, player D, who has severe arthritis, has gleefully seen a 20k increase in damage done and is doing better on mechanics than they ever have before and everyone is fine with that.

I’d argue that HA style is harder when it comes to mechanics it’s very hard to block and dodge when you are doing a Channeled attack.

The mechanics are the hard part of trials and vet content. Weaving isn’t hard to do I can weave no problem and 2 bar builds can put perform 1 bar ha builds anyway. The problem is I can’t stand rhythm combat in an elder scrolls game it doesn’t fit. I don’t enjoy the combat so I don’t do it and it hurts my hand which already has issues.

However people are still
Surviving the mechanics, and dodging which is to a hard part. You can argue the buffs from oakensoul keep people more alive and that’s fine, I’ve even said keep the buffs to empower and nerf the survivability that would have been a better balance but they went the other direction.

Do you not know you can cancel a heavy attack at any time?

As someone who plays both, there is no contest: HA is easier as a dd, by a large margin, regardless of the trial.

Of course I know you cancel it at any time. But to take advantage of the plays style and it’s set up you need to do fully charged heavy attacks. It’s not easy to do when you are always dodging.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

Name one place where "You are always dodging". Fact that 5 out of 100 heavies will be interrupted mid chanell doesn't make a good setup a bad one. Teplars had to deal with rotations based around chanelled abilities for years and somehow they were able to compete.

AScarlato

LunaFlora wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Also you can argue that heavy attack builds are harder in content all you want, you are simply wrong. The inherent survivability from oakensoul and the heavy armor from Sargents makes them much more able to withstand small hits, almost all oakensorc builds run matriarch as a whopping self heal, not to mention the potions that provide health and armor.
"But what about mechanics?!"
You can dodge and block if you are willing to sacrifice a small amount of damage which is exactly how light attack builds work.
They are easier, and it's not even close.

My issue is I run this on MagBlade. I don't have a large shield, or any shield at all. My resists are 6K under the numbres often thrown around, and I don't have an HP passive so my HP is several thousand lower than sorcs.

Sounds like they should look at sorcs and not hurt other classes that don't have these things.

Oakensorcs aren't running shields on this either...

is hardened ward not a shield?

This. Just saying the ball keeps moving through some of these threads. I know it's not the same people speaking but one argument before is how sorcs just shield and ignore mechanics. Now they aren't?

Also aren't we talking about HA and not Oakensoul? I'm not getting all that much stats from HA build itself or those sets, and the ones that are part of it remove DPS stats that could have been there instead.

jaws343

LunaFlora wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Also you can argue that heavy attack builds are harder in content all you want, you are simply wrong. The inherent survivability from oakensoul and the heavy armor from Sargents makes them much more able to withstand small hits, almost all oakensorc builds run matriarch as a whopping self heal, not to mention the potions that provide health and armor.
"But what about mechanics?!"
You can dodge and block if you are willing to sacrifice a small amount of damage which is exactly how light attack builds work.
They are easier, and it's not even close.

My issue is I run this on MagBlade. I don't have a large shield, or any shield at all. My resists are 6K under the numbres often thrown around, and I don't have an HP passive so my HP is several thousand lower than sorcs.

Sounds like they should look at sorcs and not hurt other classes that don't have these things.

Oakensorcs aren't running shields on this either...

is hardened ward not a shield?

? It is, but it's not being run on oakensoul heavy attack builds. Not serious ones at least.

There's no barspace for it.

Most oakensorcs builds are running: twilight/matriarch, hurricane, prey, scamp, critsurge/barbedtrap

The crit surge, barb trap flex is between group and solo play.

Not a single spot to fit in a shield.

Not to mention, everyone can run the light armor shield if they run nobles duelist.

Soarora

jaws343 wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Also you can argue that heavy attack builds are harder in content all you want, you are simply wrong. The inherent survivability from oakensoul and the heavy armor from Sargents makes them much more able to withstand small hits, almost all oakensorc builds run matriarch as a whopping self heal, not to mention the potions that provide health and armor.
"But what about mechanics?!"
You can dodge and block if you are willing to sacrifice a small amount of damage which is exactly how light attack builds work.
They are easier, and it's not even close.

My issue is I run this on MagBlade. I don't have a large shield, or any shield at all. My resists are 6K under the numbres often thrown around, and I don't have an HP passive so my HP is several thousand lower than sorcs.

Sounds like they should look at sorcs and not hurt other classes that don't have these things.

Oakensorcs aren't running shields on this either...

is hardened ward not a shield?

? It is, but it's not being run on oakensoul heavy attack builds. Not serious ones at least.

There's no barspace for it.

Most oakensorcs builds are running: twilight/matriarch, hurricane, prey, scamp, critsurge/barbedtrap

The crit surge, barb trap flex is between group and solo play.

Not a single spot to fit in a shield.

Not to mention, everyone can run the light armor shield if they run nobles duelist.

I’ve heard of people running hardened ward and/or aegis or whatever on oakensorc yes. Not sure what they drop for it.

PrincessOfThieves

I don't hate HA builds, I actually use a HA build on my sorc sometimes. I also think it's a good thing that ZOS didn't cut the dps of HA builds by 33% or 66% as they usually tend to do.

I just think that Oakesorc is overperforming in mid-tier groups and the fact that HA fans do not even want to admit it is a big problem. I also see a lot of hypocrisy when people who were openly pro-build diversity and anti-meta jump on Oakensorc meta just because it gives them an easy mode button.

In my opinion, Oaken builds should be viable for all vet content, but not for trifectas. I think it would be fun if there were more advanced HA builds for that, but getting a trifecta with no rotation and super high survivability is close to cheesing.

xthrshx

I don’t hate heavy attack builds or the people who enjoy them, but I do hate the philosophy that says heavy attack builds should be as powerful as light attack weaving.

Skill should be rewarded in games. A harder rotation should produce more damage. It gives you something to strive for. If a one-bar HA build does 95% of the damage done by a two-bar build with flawless weaving, what’s even the point? Where’s the reward for your effort and practice?

Aorys

Because 2 bar players don't like to see anyone doing the same stuff as them with less effort. Simple.

N00BxV1

I don't hate Heavy Attacks. But I do hate it when impatient group members (dps and healers) always latch onto mobs and bosses with their lightning/restoration staves as soon as we enter a room and before the tank can even try to get aggro... Then the tank is left running around trying to wrangle up the mobs because they're aggro'd on everyone else who is also running around... Just don't do this. Let the tank pull the mobs and bosses first, then you can heavy attack as much as your heart desires. Mmkay?

I couldn't care less about someone else's build as long as it isn't dragging the rest of the group down. I just brought this up because it's been happening a lot more often since the Heavy Attack builds have been popping up everywhere...

PS: When an impatient group member pulls a boss with their latched-on heavy attack, especially while we're discussing the mechanics, then I will absolutely just let the boss pimp slap that person right back into their place. And then they're going to receive from me the biggest teabag crouch spam known to man...

isadoraisacat

jaws343 wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Also you can argue that heavy attack builds are harder in content all you want, you are simply wrong. The inherent survivability from oakensoul and the heavy armor from Sargents makes them much more able to withstand small hits, almost all oakensorc builds run matriarch as a whopping self heal, not to mention the potions that provide health and armor.
"But what about mechanics?!"
You can dodge and block if you are willing to sacrifice a small amount of damage which is exactly how light attack builds work.
They are easier, and it's not even close.

My issue is I run this on MagBlade. I don't have a large shield, or any shield at all. My resists are 6K under the numbres often thrown around, and I don't have an HP passive so my HP is several thousand lower than sorcs.

Sounds like they should look at sorcs and not hurt other classes that don't have these things.

Oakensorcs aren't running shields on this either...

is hardened ward not a shield?

? It is, but it's not being run on oakensoul heavy attack builds. Not serious ones at least.

There's no barspace for it.

Most oakensorcs builds are running: twilight/matriarch, hurricane, prey, scamp, critsurge/barbedtrap

The crit surge, barb trap flex is between group and solo play.

Not a single spot to fit in a shield.

Not to mention, everyone can run the light armor shield if they run nobles duelist.

I don’t run any shields or wards. To avoid damage I dodge or I get hit and die.

Gnesnig

Ph1p wrote: »

Other threads explain very well the more nuanced reasons why some people have concerns with Oakensoul builds and advocate for balancing changes. But that's not hate and most players won't have an issue with you in their group as long as you (more or less) pull your weight. Why focus on those few that are toxic even though you contribute?

Very good point. But...when something is overpowered it is bound to become the norm. Already you see people asking specifically for HA sorcs in their groups, even for random normals. So it leaves other builds, like the entire stamina DPS in the shadows and unfavored.

isadoraisacat

Gnesnig wrote: »

Ph1p wrote: »

Other threads explain very well the more nuanced reasons why some people have concerns with Oakensoul builds and advocate for balancing changes. But that's not hate and most players won't have an issue with you in their group as long as you (more or less) pull your weight. Why focus on those few that are toxic even though you contribute?

Very good point. But...when something is overpowered it is bound to become the norm. Already you see people asking specifically for HA sorcs in their groups, even for random normals. So it leaves other builds, like the entire stamina DPS in the shadows and unfavored.

That’s funny because I’ve been vote kicked for being a HA player even when I was doing the most damage.

Soarora

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Gnesnig wrote: »

Ph1p wrote: »

Other threads explain very well the more nuanced reasons why some people have concerns with Oakensoul builds and advocate for balancing changes. But that's not hate and most players won't have an issue with you in their group as long as you (more or less) pull your weight. Why focus on those few that are toxic even though you contribute?

Very good point. But...when something is overpowered it is bound to become the norm. Already you see people asking specifically for HA sorcs in their groups, even for random normals. So it leaves other builds, like the entire stamina DPS in the shadows and unfavored.

That’s funny because I’ve been vote kicked for being a HA player even when I was doing the most damage.

One instance doesn't mean anything. We've talked through that situation before, it doesn't have everything to do with you using a HA build it's more about the person who kicked you being insecure. It is becoming the norm. It's rare I get a pug (or even a guild group) that doesn't have a HA build and usually both dps are HA, not like I kick them. There have also been MANY ha oakensorc only-groups, I'm glad I'm not the only one seeing this.

SeaGtGruff

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

It breeds resentment when not everyone is putting in equal effort towards the success of the groups, and the reason why doesn't matter.

The problem is that "equal effort" is a pretty subjective thing.

You might disagree, and point to add-ons that measure and display every statistical detail about each member's performance, but does anyone have a screenshot of one of those where every single member performed exactly the same (or "equal") as every other member on every aspect of the fight? I must feign ignorance about such displays, since I've never really looked at one except for glancing at screenshots posted here in the forums, but I've never studied one carefully as I have zero interest in such things. Neverhheless, despite my ignorance about them, I'll bet that you're going to have very different numbers based on whether a given group member is a damage-dealer, healer, or tank, and that even the numbers for everyone with the same role-- such as the damage-dealers-- are going to vary from member to member.

And I'm talking about groups where no one is using some "HA build." I don't see how you could ever see "equal" numbers all across the board in such displays. I mean, even if every single member were a damage-dealer using exactly the same build-- same race, same class, same gear, same ability bars, same rotations, etc.-- the only way you'd ever see equal numbers on all members of the group were if everyone were killing exactly the same things in equal measure and in equal time. In the fights I've been part of there were tons of adds of varying levels of health and difficulty, arranged all around the room in no particular order or spacing, so it was pretty much impossible for all group members to have been dealing equal damage in the fight.

So what you're left with is a subjective assessment of whether or not everyone was exerting "equal effort" on the basis of supposedly objective numbers which can basically never be equal.

SkaiFaith

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Because some elite players feel threatened by a small minority of players who were able to exploit heavy attack builds to reach numbers that are not achievable by the average user who is either disabled / or a casual player who wants a more similar combat to Skyrim (I fall into both of these ) I hit currently 60k on a trial parse dummy and that works for me I can kill world bosses and do most dungeons ok.

Even tho 2 bar builds out perform and those who got High numbers with 1 bar were already experience high end 2 bar parsers. But here we are.

Wao. This made me realize - people who argue against HA builds claim that "it's not fair that the best HA 1bar parse outperform the middle-high LA 2bars parses", when it's an unfair comparison to begin with. Why aren't we comparing the best parses on both sides, and if considering the middle parses on 2bars we still compare them to the best 1bars instead of the more rightful middle 1bar parses?

Why a middle player should be compared with a top player? It seems people assumes everyone using 1bar can achieve the same top results but reality says something different. 1bar HA users more often than not aren't super optimised - some are, for sure, not everyone and I bet not even the majority. Most are casuals, the targeted audience. So why pretend they are top players to apply a not needed nerf?
Nerfing based on the 1% makes no sense.

FantasticFreddie

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

It breeds resentment when not everyone is putting in equal effort towards the success of the groups, and the reason why doesn't matter.

The problem is that "equal effort" is a pretty subjective thing.

You might disagree, and point to add-ons that measure and display every statistical detail about each member's performance, but does anyone have a screenshot of one of those where every single member performed exactly the same (or "equal") as every other member on every aspect of the fight? I must feign ignorance about such displays, since I've never really looked at one except for glancing at screenshots posted here in the forums, but I've never studied one carefully as I have zero interest in such things. Neverhheless, despite my ignorance about them, I'll bet that you're going to have very different numbers based on whether a given group member is a damage-dealer, healer, or tank, and that even the numbers for everyone with the same role-- such as the damage-dealers-- are going to vary from member to member.

And I'm talking about groups where no one is using some "HA build." I don't see how you could ever see "equal" numbers all across the board in such displays. I mean, even if every single member were a damage-dealer using exactly the same build-- same race, same class, same gear, same ability bars, same rotations, etc.-- the only way you'd ever see equal numbers on all members of the group were if everyone were killing exactly the same things in equal measure and in equal time. In the fights I've been part of there were tons of adds of varying levels of health and difficulty, arranged all around the room in no particular order or spacing, so it was pretty much impossible for all group members to have been dealing equal damage in the fight.

So what you're left with is a subjective assessment of whether or not everyone was exerting "equal effort" on the basis of supposedly objective numbers which can basically never be equal.

It does not take a rocket scientist to look at number of casts and see a HA build is holding down left click the whole fight vrs someone who isn't. Seriously, its the difference between 40 CPM and 120 CPM. And yes, if you know where to look you can see who is doing rezzes, mechanics, etc.

Soarora

SkaiFaith wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Because some elite players feel threatened by a small minority of players who were able to exploit heavy attack builds to reach numbers that are not achievable by the average user who is either disabled / or a casual player who wants a more similar combat to Skyrim (I fall into both of these ) I hit currently 60k on a trial parse dummy and that works for me I can kill world bosses and do most dungeons ok.

Even tho 2 bar builds out perform and those who got High numbers with 1 bar were already experience high end 2 bar parsers. But here we are.

Wao. This made me realize - people who argue against HA builds claim that "it's not fair that the best HA 1bar parse outperform the middle-high LA 2bars parses", when it's an unfair comparison to begin with. Why aren't we comparing the best parses on both sides, and if considering the middle parses on 2bars we still compare them to the best 1bars instead of the more rightful middle 1bar parses?

Why a middle player should be compared with a top player? It seems people assumes everyone using 1bar can achieve the same top results but reality says something different. 1bar HA users more often than not aren't super optimised - some are, for sure, not everyone and I bet not even the majority. Most are casuals, the targeted audience. So why pretend they are top players to apply a not needed nerf?
Nerfing based on the 1% makes no sense.

While your point makes perfect sense, I think it's because most people don't realize that most people don't run the meta build for HA. The meta build as far as I understand it has very low learning curve, you put it on and you're getting 80k+ dps, which doesn't happen with traditional builds. As for comparing the highest HA parses with the highest traditional build parses, it's because it doesn't matter. 101k or so versus 120k when you only need 80k or less to complete the content. Endgamers are being sweaty with their HA builds because it's "easy and survivable" and they want to maximize their build, not only with maximum damage, but maximum damage for least amount of effort. And then they complain about the build being easy and how they "have to use it" because it's there, and now are even requiring people to use the meta HA build in several independent instances I have seen. Not a traditional build, not a 2-bar HA build, and in many cases not even any other class than 1 necro and the rest sorcs. In specific sets. The endgame I'm surrounded by hasn't become any more accessible, it's becoming worse (yes, DK stacking is a thing, no I have very rarely if ever seen people specifically looking for DKs outside of some cores, this "oakensorc only" thing is far beyond that). The top end can be nerfed without affecting all HA builds majorly, ZOS just needs to do it.

PrincessOfThieves

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

It breeds resentment when not everyone is putting in equal effort towards the success of the groups, and the reason why doesn't matter.

The problem is that "equal effort" is a pretty subjective thing.

You might disagree, and point to add-ons that measure and display every statistical detail about each member's performance, but does anyone have a screenshot of one of those where every single member performed exactly the same (or "equal") as every other member on every aspect of the fight? I must feign ignorance about such displays, since I've never really looked at one except for glancing at screenshots posted here in the forums, but I've never studied one carefully as I have zero interest in such things. Neverhheless, despite my ignorance about them, I'll bet that you're going to have very different numbers based on whether a given group member is a damage-dealer, healer, or tank, and that even the numbers for everyone with the same role-- such as the damage-dealers-- are going to vary from member to member.

And I'm talking about groups where no one is using some "HA build." I don't see how you could ever see "equal" numbers all across the board in such displays. I mean, even if every single member were a damage-dealer using exactly the same build-- same race, same class, same gear, same ability bars, same rotations, etc.-- the only way you'd ever see equal numbers on all members of the group were if everyone were killing exactly the same things in equal measure and in equal time. In the fights I've been part of there were tons of adds of varying levels of health and difficulty, arranged all around the room in no particular order or spacing, so it was pretty much impossible for all group members to have been dealing equal damage in the fight.

So what you're left with is a subjective assessment of whether or not everyone was exerting "equal effort" on the basis of supposedly objective numbers which can basically never be equal.

Oakensorc is many times easier than any other build, though. It's not a "nb vs sorc" or "I didnt have ult for that trash pull" kind of situation, it's a whole different league.

You don't need to care about rotation, just pressing one button does more damage than a lot of casual dds can do with 2 bar builds.
You don't need to care about sustain and you have infinite heals if you have the matriarch.
You are extremely tanky. High health and resistances allow you to survive big hits that would simply kill a regular dd. For example, I got a very unexperienced vShipwrights pug the other day and had to heal them, tank the bosses while the actual tank was dead, etc. The build makes mechanics much more forgiving, that alone is an insane advantage, even with 60k dps it would make Oakensorc a solid build for casual players.
You do not need to rely on other players to get buffs. Regular dps builds require at least somewhat decent support.
Etc, etc.

So it does require less effort, even if we're talking about learning mechanics. It's much easier when you don't get oneshot by things that kill regular dds and don't need to pay attention to rotation. I play both regular builds and Oaken, and Oakensorc is the easiest build I've ever played and probably the strongest.

Ph1p

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

So what you're left with is a subjective assessment of whether or not everyone was exerting "equal effort" on the basis of supposedly objective numbers which can basically never be equal.

This assessment typically comes from the same person doing the same content on both LA and then HA builds. Everyone I know, who has done that for arenas, dungeon HMs or even trifectas, has confirmed the relative ease of Oakensorc builds compared to their regular LA setups.

spartaxoxo

2 bar builds are only better if you have the skill to make them better. Then there are others that want to gatekeep trials so they can think others think of the titles as prestigious. The irony is that the nerf debates have actually lowered the prestige of those titles. They have laid bare how little many players think of the trial mechanics.

I used to think those trials were really hard and that those players hadn't just got good dummy numbers but they had actually overcome some very difficult mechanics. Apparently that was wrong and the trial mechs are trivial. Which makes me question why they have the damage requirements in the first place if they are so easy to do when you have damage? Might as well nerf those trials.

FantasticFreddie

spartaxoxo wrote: »

2 bar builds are only better if you have the skill to make them better. Then there are others that want to gatekeep trials so they can think others think of the titles as prestigious. The irony is that the nerf debates have actually lowered the prestige of those titles. They have laid bare how little many players think of the trial mechanics.

I used to think those trials were really hard and that those players hadn't just got good dummy numbers but they had actually overcome some very difficult mechanics. Apparently that was wrong and the trial mechs are trivial. Which makes me question why they have the damage requirements in the first place if they are so easy to do when you have damage? Might as well nerf those trials.

Which mechanics?

Some older trials can be burned through without obeying mechs, but newer trials are all portal this and circle that, and those mechanics definitely need to be obeyed.

disintegr8

I suggest that a fair portion of the 'hate' is elitist - some people have put a lot of effort into perfecting their weaving rotations and the thought that some Johnny come lately can match it without too much hard work upsets them.

Another part of the problem is the game trying to balance PVP and PVE with the same sets and the same skills - you bring a string set/item out for PVE and it negatively impacts PVP, and vice versa.

As for trials, the trial runner/organizer has the right to accept and reject anything they want, without having to justify it to anyone. If they are unreasonable, they'll very quickly struggle to fill a trial, if they run good trials, people will be eager to join. if you join a trial guild and start debating why this and why that, you'll be looking for another guild very quickly.

Whatever build you want to run, you run, but if you want to run an unpopular build in harder content, you may have to run your own trials. DLC vet trials require teamwork and a team performance, who cares how much DPS you put out if the group keeps wiping.

Kusto

I don't hate HA builds but I don't allow them in my raids. It wouldn't be fair to others who put in the time and effort to learn rotation and weaving only to get outparsed by someone holding down 1 button.
It should definitely get nerfed some more. Currently it's only creating toxicity. People can still use it in vet content if tops at someting like 50-60k.

AScarlato

Kusto wrote: »

I don't hate HA builds but I don't allow them in my raids. It wouldn't be fair to others who put in the time and effort to learn rotation and weaving only to get outparsed by someone holding down 1 button.
It should definitely get nerfed some more. Currently it's only creating toxicity. People can still use it in vet content if tops at someting like 50-60k.

You don’t hate them but gatekeep them and want everyone who uses them nerfed. Okay.