Let's talk about weaving

Soarora · May 2023

BlueRaven wrote: »

For those of you unfamiliar with mmo-campion it is mostly a Warcraft/Blizzard fansite, but it does have sub forums.

Here is the thread for ESO, the latest posts are pretty telling.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1743103-Megathread-The-Elder-Scrolls-Online-Tamriel-Unlimited/page213

The general consensus? ESO is a great game and they would play it more, but weaving/animation canceling is a huge turn off.

I know there are plenty people here who like it. But zos has to figure out how to introduce other combat styles, the combat here in ESO just turns too many people away.

Weaving is not a requirement, I've seen somewhere a no-la parse that was like 90k if my memory serves me correctly. There's also the new mythic that supports no-weave and I've gotten a 80+k parse on arcanist with it. LAs have been getting nerfs in recent updates to lower the gap between weaving, badly weaving, and not weaving at all. I don't even think anyone would ever know you're not weaving except in a parse and if your number is high who cares?

BlueRaven · May 2023

Soarora wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

For those of you unfamiliar with mmo-campion it is mostly a Warcraft/Blizzard fansite, but it does have sub forums.

Here is the thread for ESO, the latest posts are pretty telling.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1743103-Megathread-The-Elder-Scrolls-Online-Tamriel-Unlimited/page213

The general consensus? ESO is a great game and they would play it more, but weaving/animation canceling is a huge turn off.

I know there are plenty people here who like it. But zos has to figure out how to introduce other combat styles, the combat here in ESO just turns too many people away.

Weaving is not a requirement, I've seen somewhere a no-la parse that was like 90k if my memory serves me correctly. There's also the new mythic that supports no-weave and I've gotten a 80+k parse on arcanist with it. LAs have been getting nerfs in recent updates to lower the gap between weaving, badly weaving, and not weaving at all. I don't even think anyone would ever know you're not weaving except in a parse and if your number is high who cares?

The people who are pulling 80k with that new mythic are the experts at this game. For basically everyone else, the people who depend upon oak and/or ha builds, this is not going to be appealing to them. If they do use it (which they won't), they will be lucky to hit 1/2 that and their dps will probably just be a third of what youtubers are showing.

Why?

Because it's not just weaving (which I would argue is still needed with this mythic because of ultimates) but the whole bar swapping mechanic it reintroduces. Juggling timers on two bars? Yeah, that is not selling point for the oak target audience.

Look zos, for what ever reason, is targeting mid-tier and mostly lower tier players with a nerf. Which means the pool of players capable of doing difficult content will go down, or at least the quality of players running difficult content will diminish.

So pug groups will be running content slower, less people will be doing trials, and more people will feel discouraged from trying pvp (which this new mythic basically forbids players from doing anyway), if they chose to stay with eso that is.

Thats what's going to happen.

EDIT: Oh! I just realized this new mythic also destroys HA builds. So those players will absolutely not use this mythic.

Soarora · May 2023

BlueRaven wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

For those of you unfamiliar with mmo-campion it is mostly a Warcraft/Blizzard fansite, but it does have sub forums.

Here is the thread for ESO, the latest posts are pretty telling.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1743103-Megathread-The-Elder-Scrolls-Online-Tamriel-Unlimited/page213

The general consensus? ESO is a great game and they would play it more, but weaving/animation canceling is a huge turn off.

I know there are plenty people here who like it. But zos has to figure out how to introduce other combat styles, the combat here in ESO just turns too many people away.

Weaving is not a requirement, I've seen somewhere a no-la parse that was like 90k if my memory serves me correctly. There's also the new mythic that supports no-weave and I've gotten a 80+k parse on arcanist with it. LAs have been getting nerfs in recent updates to lower the gap between weaving, badly weaving, and not weaving at all. I don't even think anyone would ever know you're not weaving except in a parse and if your number is high who cares?

The people who are pulling 80k with that new mythic are the experts at this game. For basically everyone else, the people who depend upon oak and/or ha builds, this is not going to be appealing to them. If they do use it (which they won't), they will be lucky to hit 1/2 that and their dps will probably just be a third of what youtubers are showing.

Why?

Because it's not just weaving (which I would argue is still needed with this mythic because of ultimates) but the whole bar swapping mechanic it reintroduces. Juggling timers on two bars? Yeah, that is not selling point for the oak target audience.

Look zos, for what ever reason, is targeting mid-tier and mostly lower tier players with a nerf. Which means the pool of players capable of doing difficult content will go down, or at least the quality of players running difficult content will diminish.

So pug groups will be running content slower, less people will be doing trials, and more people will feel discouraged from trying pvp (which this new mythic basically forbids players from doing anyway), if they chose to stay with eso that is.

Thats what's going to happen.

EDIT: Oh! I just realized this new mythic also destroys HA builds. So those players will absolutely not use this mythic.

Thanks for the compliment? I was using it on a class I don't know very well using sets I wasn't sure would work (one from the new trial, other one was deadly strike) without using a single light attack. Of course people who are new to 2-bar would get lower DPS, but 80k isn't the ceiling either. OakenHA shouldn't be a fastpass of "I'm not good at this so lets use the easy build". I miss when oakensoul was built for 1-bar non-ha builds... I even used it for a 1-bar non-ha build... I do agree empower shouldn't be the target of nerfs though. Nerfing people who already do like 40k dps doesn't make sense. But anyways, the argument I was replying to is that WEAVING is the turn-off NOT barswapping. There is more to the game than 2-bar weaving traditional builds and 1-bar oakensoul heavy attack builds. The new mythic does not "destroy HA builds" it just is unusable on them.

And also HA shouldn't be in PvP. I don't mean this in a "get HA out of here" way I mean it as a warning. In battlegrounds at least they don't hit very hard and are easy to kill compared to everyone else.

Edit: Also the new mythic doesn't "forbid" people from being in PvP. It doesn't give you -15% damage for being in PvP. You just don't get the 15% buff. Because there were rightful concerns about things like ganking.

BlueRaven · May 2023

Soarora wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

For those of you unfamiliar with mmo-campion it is mostly a Warcraft/Blizzard fansite, but it does have sub forums.

Here is the thread for ESO, the latest posts are pretty telling.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1743103-Megathread-The-Elder-Scrolls-Online-Tamriel-Unlimited/page213

The general consensus? ESO is a great game and they would play it more, but weaving/animation canceling is a huge turn off.

I know there are plenty people here who like it. But zos has to figure out how to introduce other combat styles, the combat here in ESO just turns too many people away.

Weaving is not a requirement, I've seen somewhere a no-la parse that was like 90k if my memory serves me correctly. There's also the new mythic that supports no-weave and I've gotten a 80+k parse on arcanist with it. LAs have been getting nerfs in recent updates to lower the gap between weaving, badly weaving, and not weaving at all. I don't even think anyone would ever know you're not weaving except in a parse and if your number is high who cares?

The people who are pulling 80k with that new mythic are the experts at this game. For basically everyone else, the people who depend upon oak and/or ha builds, this is not going to be appealing to them. If they do use it (which they won't), they will be lucky to hit 1/2 that and their dps will probably just be a third of what youtubers are showing.

Why?

Because it's not just weaving (which I would argue is still needed with this mythic because of ultimates) but the whole bar swapping mechanic it reintroduces. Juggling timers on two bars? Yeah, that is not selling point for the oak target audience.

Look zos, for what ever reason, is targeting mid-tier and mostly lower tier players with a nerf. Which means the pool of players capable of doing difficult content will go down, or at least the quality of players running difficult content will diminish.

So pug groups will be running content slower, less people will be doing trials, and more people will feel discouraged from trying pvp (which this new mythic basically forbids players from doing anyway), if they chose to stay with eso that is.

Thats what's going to happen.

EDIT: Oh! I just realized this new mythic also destroys HA builds. So those players will absolutely not use this mythic.

Thanks for the compliment? I was using it on a class I don't know very well using sets I wasn't sure would work (one from the new trial, other one was deadly strike) without using a single light attack. Of course people who are new to 2-bar would get lower DPS, but 80k isn't the ceiling either. OakenHA shouldn't be a fastpass of "I'm not good at this so lets use the easy build". I miss when oakensoul was built for 1-bar non-ha builds... I even used it for a 1-bar non-ha build... I do agree empower shouldn't be the target of nerfs though. Nerfing people who already do like 40k dps doesn't make sense. But anyways, the argument I was replying to is that WEAVING is the turn-off NOT barswapping. There is more to the game than 2-bar weaving traditional builds and 1-bar oakensoul heavy attack builds. The new mythic does not "destroy HA builds" it just is unusable on them.

And also HA shouldn't be in PvP. I don't mean this in a "get HA out of here" way I mean it as a warning. In battlegrounds at least they don't hit very hard and are easy to kill compared to everyone else.

Edit: Also the new mythic doesn't "forbid" people from being in PvP. It doesn't give you -15% damage for being in PvP. You just don't get the 15% buff. Because there were rightful concerns about things like ganking.

The new mythic, does not give any bonuses to pvp AND does not allow light and heavy attack from doing damage AND is basically blocking a five or two piece set from functioning.
It would functionally be the same as wearing only one ring and not being able to light or heavy attack in pvp. A dead gear location plus additional negatives.
So yes, it’s a big red stop sign for pvp, unless you really like dying a lot.

•••

The average dps in this game is roughly 20-25 dps (at best), if you are personally pulling off 80k dps with whatever set up you have, you are a rarity.
And the people doing 20-25k with the oak ring, the stam bow nbs, the dw templars, the wood elf (well anything), those people are getting nerfed.

Some people with this ring are just starting feeling confident enough to do vet dungeons. Maybe they are pulling 30k with their stam 2 handed build. Those people are getting nerfed.

And yes, the HA people who farmed the ring, AND got the scrying leveled up, AND farmed for all the sergeant pieces, AND farmed all the storm pieces, AND got the monster helmet, AND got their professions up, AND farmed enough currency to transform their gear, AND golded those pieces to be best they can be…
You know, the people who took the “easy” route to higher dps? They are getting nerfed too.

This whole thing is just bad on a lot of levels.

Soarora · May 2023

BlueRaven wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

For those of you unfamiliar with mmo-campion it is mostly a Warcraft/Blizzard fansite, but it does have sub forums.

Here is the thread for ESO, the latest posts are pretty telling.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1743103-Megathread-The-Elder-Scrolls-Online-Tamriel-Unlimited/page213

The general consensus? ESO is a great game and they would play it more, but weaving/animation canceling is a huge turn off.

I know there are plenty people here who like it. But zos has to figure out how to introduce other combat styles, the combat here in ESO just turns too many people away.

Weaving is not a requirement, I've seen somewhere a no-la parse that was like 90k if my memory serves me correctly. There's also the new mythic that supports no-weave and I've gotten a 80+k parse on arcanist with it. LAs have been getting nerfs in recent updates to lower the gap between weaving, badly weaving, and not weaving at all. I don't even think anyone would ever know you're not weaving except in a parse and if your number is high who cares?

The people who are pulling 80k with that new mythic are the experts at this game. For basically everyone else, the people who depend upon oak and/or ha builds, this is not going to be appealing to them. If they do use it (which they won't), they will be lucky to hit 1/2 that and their dps will probably just be a third of what youtubers are showing.

Why?

Because it's not just weaving (which I would argue is still needed with this mythic because of ultimates) but the whole bar swapping mechanic it reintroduces. Juggling timers on two bars? Yeah, that is not selling point for the oak target audience.

Look zos, for what ever reason, is targeting mid-tier and mostly lower tier players with a nerf. Which means the pool of players capable of doing difficult content will go down, or at least the quality of players running difficult content will diminish.

So pug groups will be running content slower, less people will be doing trials, and more people will feel discouraged from trying pvp (which this new mythic basically forbids players from doing anyway), if they chose to stay with eso that is.

Thats what's going to happen.

EDIT: Oh! I just realized this new mythic also destroys HA builds. So those players will absolutely not use this mythic.

Thanks for the compliment? I was using it on a class I don't know very well using sets I wasn't sure would work (one from the new trial, other one was deadly strike) without using a single light attack. Of course people who are new to 2-bar would get lower DPS, but 80k isn't the ceiling either. OakenHA shouldn't be a fastpass of "I'm not good at this so lets use the easy build". I miss when oakensoul was built for 1-bar non-ha builds... I even used it for a 1-bar non-ha build... I do agree empower shouldn't be the target of nerfs though. Nerfing people who already do like 40k dps doesn't make sense. But anyways, the argument I was replying to is that WEAVING is the turn-off NOT barswapping. There is more to the game than 2-bar weaving traditional builds and 1-bar oakensoul heavy attack builds. The new mythic does not "destroy HA builds" it just is unusable on them.

And also HA shouldn't be in PvP. I don't mean this in a "get HA out of here" way I mean it as a warning. In battlegrounds at least they don't hit very hard and are easy to kill compared to everyone else.

Edit: Also the new mythic doesn't "forbid" people from being in PvP. It doesn't give you -15% damage for being in PvP. You just don't get the 15% buff. Because there were rightful concerns about things like ganking.

The new mythic, does not give any bonuses to pvp AND does not allow light and heavy attack from doing damage AND is basically blocking a five or two piece set from functioning.
It would functionally be the same as wearing only one ring and not being able to light or heavy attack in pvp. A dead gear location plus additional negatives.
So yes, it’s a big red stop sign for pvp, unless you really like dying a lot.

•••

The average dps in this game is roughly 20-25 dps (at best), if you are personally pulling off 80k dps with whatever set up you have, you are a rarity.
And the people doing 20-25k with the oak ring, the stam bow nbs, the dw templars, the wood elf (well anything), those people are getting nerfed.

Some people with this ring are just starting feeling confident enough to do vet dungeons. Maybe they are pulling 30k with their stam 2 handed build. Those people are getting nerfed.

And yes, the HA people who farmed the ring, AND got the scrying leveled up, AND farmed for all the sergeant pieces, AND farmed all the storm pieces, AND got the monster helmet, AND got their professions up, AND farmed enough currency to transform their gear, AND golded those pieces to be best they can be…
You know, the people who took the “easy” route to higher dps? They are getting nerfed too.

This whole thing is just bad on a lot of levels.

Not saying you should use the ring in PvP but it doesn't forbid anyone from being in PvP. Just wear something else or deal with the missing piece in an unoptimized build, it's not like LAs are easy to hit in PvP anyways with people cha-cha-roll-dodge-hide-behind-pillar arounding.

I'm fairly certain that the average DPS is so low because of people not using gear remotely optimized. When I first got serious about being a DPS I used a Xynode build and got 55k or so and that build wasn't even good for several reasons. Oakensoul isn’t getting nerfed. Stamina bow nightblade isn’t getting nerfed. Dual wield templars aren’t getting nerfed. Wood elves are not inherently bad damage nor are they getting nerfed. I have no idea what you’re talking about. And stam 2H with Oakensoul shouldn’t even be the target of nerfs. I said already empower isn’t what should be targetted I don’t know why you’re bringing this up. Scrying, farming (which mind you, is usually DLC dungeons and trials but for HA is non DLC), transmute, and golding things are not unique to HA whatsoever, traditional builds have to do that too. And professions do not need to be leveled, but many people have crafters as well. Most people don’t even seem to use that build anyways, opting for overland gear which is why their damage is so low.

And at the end of all of this.. I was not even talking about HA in the first place. I was talking about how people can choose to not weave. There are more build options than OakenHA and 2-bar weaving with spammable. People can choose to do a traditional build without weaving without any connection to HA. There are more playstyles. Not everything is about oakenHA.

I’m done talking about HA here. I’m excited for this mythic for my own use and I also hope that people who don’t want to weave feel more confident by using it. It has some unique theorycrafting challenges due to the inability to use most of the popular sets which is fun to work around. Might bring some build diversity back.

Agenericname · May 2023

Soarora wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

For those of you unfamiliar with mmo-campion it is mostly a Warcraft/Blizzard fansite, but it does have sub forums.

Here is the thread for ESO, the latest posts are pretty telling.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1743103-Megathread-The-Elder-Scrolls-Online-Tamriel-Unlimited/page213

The general consensus? ESO is a great game and they would play it more, but weaving/animation canceling is a huge turn off.

I know there are plenty people here who like it. But zos has to figure out how to introduce other combat styles, the combat here in ESO just turns too many people away.

Weaving is not a requirement, I've seen somewhere a no-la parse that was like 90k if my memory serves me correctly. There's also the new mythic that supports no-weave and I've gotten a 80+k parse on arcanist with it. LAs have been getting nerfs in recent updates to lower the gap between weaving, badly weaving, and not weaving at all. I don't even think anyone would ever know you're not weaving except in a parse and if your number is high who cares?

The people who are pulling 80k with that new mythic are the experts at this game. For basically everyone else, the people who depend upon oak and/or ha builds, this is not going to be appealing to them. If they do use it (which they won't), they will be lucky to hit 1/2 that and their dps will probably just be a third of what youtubers are showing.

Why?

Because it's not just weaving (which I would argue is still needed with this mythic because of ultimates) but the whole bar swapping mechanic it reintroduces. Juggling timers on two bars? Yeah, that is not selling point for the oak target audience.

Look zos, for what ever reason, is targeting mid-tier and mostly lower tier players with a nerf. Which means the pool of players capable of doing difficult content will go down, or at least the quality of players running difficult content will diminish.

So pug groups will be running content slower, less people will be doing trials, and more people will feel discouraged from trying pvp (which this new mythic basically forbids players from doing anyway), if they chose to stay with eso that is.

Thats what's going to happen.

EDIT: Oh! I just realized this new mythic also destroys HA builds. So those players will absolutely not use this mythic.

Thanks for the compliment? I was using it on a class I don't know very well using sets I wasn't sure would work (one from the new trial, other one was deadly strike) without using a single light attack. Of course people who are new to 2-bar would get lower DPS, but 80k isn't the ceiling either. OakenHA shouldn't be a fastpass of "I'm not good at this so lets use the easy build". I miss when oakensoul was built for 1-bar non-ha builds... I even used it for a 1-bar non-ha build... I do agree empower shouldn't be the target of nerfs though. Nerfing people who already do like 40k dps doesn't make sense. But anyways, the argument I was replying to is that WEAVING is the turn-off NOT barswapping. There is more to the game than 2-bar weaving traditional builds and 1-bar oakensoul heavy attack builds. The new mythic does not "destroy HA builds" it just is unusable on them.

And also HA shouldn't be in PvP. I don't mean this in a "get HA out of here" way I mean it as a warning. In battlegrounds at least they don't hit very hard and are easy to kill compared to everyone else.

Edit: Also the new mythic doesn't "forbid" people from being in PvP. It doesn't give you -15% damage for being in PvP. You just don't get the 15% buff. Because there were rightful concerns about things like ganking.

The new mythic, does not give any bonuses to pvp AND does not allow light and heavy attack from doing damage AND is basically blocking a five or two piece set from functioning.
It would functionally be the same as wearing only one ring and not being able to light or heavy attack in pvp. A dead gear location plus additional negatives.
So yes, it’s a big red stop sign for pvp, unless you really like dying a lot.

•••

The average dps in this game is roughly 20-25 dps (at best), if you are personally pulling off 80k dps with whatever set up you have, you are a rarity.
And the people doing 20-25k with the oak ring, the stam bow nbs, the dw templars, the wood elf (well anything), those people are getting nerfed.

Some people with this ring are just starting feeling confident enough to do vet dungeons. Maybe they are pulling 30k with their stam 2 handed build. Those people are getting nerfed.

And yes, the HA people who farmed the ring, AND got the scrying leveled up, AND farmed for all the sergeant pieces, AND farmed all the storm pieces, AND got the monster helmet, AND got their professions up, AND farmed enough currency to transform their gear, AND golded those pieces to be best they can be…
You know, the people who took the “easy” route to higher dps? They are getting nerfed too.

This whole thing is just bad on a lot of levels.

Not saying you should use the ring in PvP but it doesn't forbid anyone from being in PvP. Just wear something else or deal with the missing piece in an unoptimized build, it's not like LAs are easy to hit in PvP anyways with people cha-cha-roll-dodge-hide-behind-pillar arounding.

I'm fairly certain that the average DPS is so low because of people not using gear remotely optimized. When I first got serious about being a DPS I used a Xynode build and got 55k or so and that build wasn't even good for several reasons. Oakensoul isn’t getting nerfed. Stamina bow nightblade isn’t getting nerfed. Dual wield templars aren’t getting nerfed. Wood elves are not inherently bad damage nor are they getting nerfed. I have no idea what you’re talking about. And stam 2H with Oakensoul shouldn’t even be the target of nerfs. I said already empower isn’t what should be targetted I don’t know why you’re bringing this up. Scrying, farming (which mind you, is usually DLC dungeons and trials but for HA is non DLC), transmute, and golding things are not unique to HA whatsoever, traditional builds have to do that too. And professions do not need to be leveled, but many people have crafters as well. Most people don’t even seem to use that build anyways, opting for overland gear which is why their damage is so low.

And at the end of all of this.. I was not even talking about HA in the first place. I was talking about how people can choose to not weave. There are more build options than OakenHA and 2-bar weaving with spammable. People can choose to do a traditional build without weaving without any connection to HA. There are more playstyles. Not everything is about oakenHA.

I’m done talking about HA here. I’m excited for this mythic for my own use and I also hope that people who don’t want to weave feel more confident by using it. It has some unique theorycrafting challenges due to the inability to use most of the popular sets which is fun to work around. Might bring some build diversity back.

What popular sets does the mythic make a player unable to use?

The parses I have seen are 110-+120k, so I think it has the potential to be a solid mythic for some players. I suspect it'll be a little like Oak where its parse #s and actual performance in content differ substantially.

The extra pen and crit damage lead me to believe that it isnt made for optimized groups, though I could see it be good for something like vCR portals and opens up some options in 4 person. I think for people who dont weave well or find it painful that it will be a nice alternative.

Soarora · May 2023

Agenericname wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

For those of you unfamiliar with mmo-campion it is mostly a Warcraft/Blizzard fansite, but it does have sub forums.

Here is the thread for ESO, the latest posts are pretty telling.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1743103-Megathread-The-Elder-Scrolls-Online-Tamriel-Unlimited/page213

The general consensus? ESO is a great game and they would play it more, but weaving/animation canceling is a huge turn off.

I know there are plenty people here who like it. But zos has to figure out how to introduce other combat styles, the combat here in ESO just turns too many people away.

Weaving is not a requirement, I've seen somewhere a no-la parse that was like 90k if my memory serves me correctly. There's also the new mythic that supports no-weave and I've gotten a 80+k parse on arcanist with it. LAs have been getting nerfs in recent updates to lower the gap between weaving, badly weaving, and not weaving at all. I don't even think anyone would ever know you're not weaving except in a parse and if your number is high who cares?

The people who are pulling 80k with that new mythic are the experts at this game. For basically everyone else, the people who depend upon oak and/or ha builds, this is not going to be appealing to them. If they do use it (which they won't), they will be lucky to hit 1/2 that and their dps will probably just be a third of what youtubers are showing.

Why?

Because it's not just weaving (which I would argue is still needed with this mythic because of ultimates) but the whole bar swapping mechanic it reintroduces. Juggling timers on two bars? Yeah, that is not selling point for the oak target audience.

Look zos, for what ever reason, is targeting mid-tier and mostly lower tier players with a nerf. Which means the pool of players capable of doing difficult content will go down, or at least the quality of players running difficult content will diminish.

So pug groups will be running content slower, less people will be doing trials, and more people will feel discouraged from trying pvp (which this new mythic basically forbids players from doing anyway), if they chose to stay with eso that is.

Thats what's going to happen.

EDIT: Oh! I just realized this new mythic also destroys HA builds. So those players will absolutely not use this mythic.

Thanks for the compliment? I was using it on a class I don't know very well using sets I wasn't sure would work (one from the new trial, other one was deadly strike) without using a single light attack. Of course people who are new to 2-bar would get lower DPS, but 80k isn't the ceiling either. OakenHA shouldn't be a fastpass of "I'm not good at this so lets use the easy build". I miss when oakensoul was built for 1-bar non-ha builds... I even used it for a 1-bar non-ha build... I do agree empower shouldn't be the target of nerfs though. Nerfing people who already do like 40k dps doesn't make sense. But anyways, the argument I was replying to is that WEAVING is the turn-off NOT barswapping. There is more to the game than 2-bar weaving traditional builds and 1-bar oakensoul heavy attack builds. The new mythic does not "destroy HA builds" it just is unusable on them.

And also HA shouldn't be in PvP. I don't mean this in a "get HA out of here" way I mean it as a warning. In battlegrounds at least they don't hit very hard and are easy to kill compared to everyone else.

Edit: Also the new mythic doesn't "forbid" people from being in PvP. It doesn't give you -15% damage for being in PvP. You just don't get the 15% buff. Because there were rightful concerns about things like ganking.

The new mythic, does not give any bonuses to pvp AND does not allow light and heavy attack from doing damage AND is basically blocking a five or two piece set from functioning.
It would functionally be the same as wearing only one ring and not being able to light or heavy attack in pvp. A dead gear location plus additional negatives.
So yes, it’s a big red stop sign for pvp, unless you really like dying a lot.

•••

The average dps in this game is roughly 20-25 dps (at best), if you are personally pulling off 80k dps with whatever set up you have, you are a rarity.
And the people doing 20-25k with the oak ring, the stam bow nbs, the dw templars, the wood elf (well anything), those people are getting nerfed.

Some people with this ring are just starting feeling confident enough to do vet dungeons. Maybe they are pulling 30k with their stam 2 handed build. Those people are getting nerfed.

And yes, the HA people who farmed the ring, AND got the scrying leveled up, AND farmed for all the sergeant pieces, AND farmed all the storm pieces, AND got the monster helmet, AND got their professions up, AND farmed enough currency to transform their gear, AND golded those pieces to be best they can be…
You know, the people who took the “easy” route to higher dps? They are getting nerfed too.

This whole thing is just bad on a lot of levels.

Not saying you should use the ring in PvP but it doesn't forbid anyone from being in PvP. Just wear something else or deal with the missing piece in an unoptimized build, it's not like LAs are easy to hit in PvP anyways with people cha-cha-roll-dodge-hide-behind-pillar arounding.

I'm fairly certain that the average DPS is so low because of people not using gear remotely optimized. When I first got serious about being a DPS I used a Xynode build and got 55k or so and that build wasn't even good for several reasons. Oakensoul isn’t getting nerfed. Stamina bow nightblade isn’t getting nerfed. Dual wield templars aren’t getting nerfed. Wood elves are not inherently bad damage nor are they getting nerfed. I have no idea what you’re talking about. And stam 2H with Oakensoul shouldn’t even be the target of nerfs. I said already empower isn’t what should be targetted I don’t know why you’re bringing this up. Scrying, farming (which mind you, is usually DLC dungeons and trials but for HA is non DLC), transmute, and golding things are not unique to HA whatsoever, traditional builds have to do that too. And professions do not need to be leveled, but many people have crafters as well. Most people don’t even seem to use that build anyways, opting for overland gear which is why their damage is so low.

And at the end of all of this.. I was not even talking about HA in the first place. I was talking about how people can choose to not weave. There are more build options than OakenHA and 2-bar weaving with spammable. People can choose to do a traditional build without weaving without any connection to HA. There are more playstyles. Not everything is about oakenHA.

I’m done talking about HA here. I’m excited for this mythic for my own use and I also hope that people who don’t want to weave feel more confident by using it. It has some unique theorycrafting challenges due to the inability to use most of the popular sets which is fun to work around. Might bring some build diversity back.

What popular sets does the mythic make a player unable to use?

The parses I have seen are 110-+120k, so I think it has the potential to be a solid mythic for some players. I suspect it'll be a little like Oak where its parse #s and actual performance in content differ substantially.

The extra pen and crit damage lead me to believe that it isnt made for optimized groups, though I could see it be good for something like vCR portals and opens up some options in 4 person. I think for people who dont weave well or find it painful that it will be a nice alternative.

If someone isn’t weaving they can’t use relequen, pillar, or whorl. Can’t use something like crystal weapon or the stamsorc dagger summon thing. Or nightblade bow skill. Can weave with the mythic and still use those but goes against the point of using the mythic. I’m not sure what’s up with the pen and crit either. I do think it’s very exciting though. I don’t weave well in content, iirc I’ll get like 30 LAs out of 130 skills because I’m busy thinking about mechanics (not that I don’t try, but my timing gets off), while my parses are only about 10 skill difference. Weaving also hurts sometimes.

Lumsdenml · May 2023

I've been around since beta and, in general, have been pretty horrible at la weaving. For the most part, just never put the time in to practice. I started grouping together with 3 friends once a week about a year ago with the intention to clear all the 4 man content in the game, normal, vet, speed, no death hm. Not wanting to be carried, I began working at it and I can la weave much more consistently now. As I practiced, learned the rhythm of the combat with it, tightened up my rotation, I began to enjoy it more and more. It feels good, now, where before my thoughts were much more negative.

SeaGtGruff · May 2023

Soarora wrote: »

And also HA shouldn't be in PvP. I don't mean this in a "get HA out of here" way I mean it as a warning. In battlegrounds at least they don't hit very hard and are easy to kill compared to everyone else.

As I understand it, Battlegrounds are no-CP "campaigns" (if that's the right word for a 15-minutes-or-less gladiator-like contest), so that's probably why the current "HA builds" don't seem to perform very well in Battlegrounds. In the CP campaigns in Cyrodiil and the Imperial City, the same builds can probably perform much better.

Note, I'm not really familiar with the current "HA builds"-- or any other builds, really-- beyond what little I've gleaned about them while reading these forums, because I don't watch Twitch streams or YouTube videos about builds, or read anyone's guides on the web about builds. I don't even consider my own characters to have any "builds" per se, since I just go with whatever attribute spreads, skill morphs, ability bar setups, CP perks, and gear that seems to give me the kinds of results I can live with for my preferred playstyle, rather than trying to deliberately "build" them for min-maxed BIS/META results according to any actual plan. So correct me if I'm wrong, but don't current HA builds rely heavily on specific CP perks?

If that's indeed the case, then it might be possible to come up with HA builds that do perform acceptably in Battlegrounds. I've played only a few Battleground matches myself, but both of my mains are 2H melee fighters who tend to use HAs and MAs most of the time, switching to LAs if necessary, although I'm not well-practiced at LA weaving and tend to do it backwards without meaning to (i.e., skill-LA, skill-LA, skill-LA rather than LA-skill, LA-skill, LA-skill). Anyway, my PC NA main does tend to be very squishy in Battlegrounds from what I've seen, although he's also made a few kills or assists. On the other hand, my PC EU main seems to be noticeably better in Battlegrounds, despite using HA weaving much of the time.

In contrast, the situation is pretty much reversed in Cyrodiil. The other day I decided to do 3 daily endeavors in Cyrodiil (repair structural damage, dig up a chest from a treasure map, and kill dangerous foes), and was stopping to harvest every resource node I saw as I was riding around trying to locate buried treasure. On PC NA I was stooping to harvest a node by a lake, saw an enemy player spot me and come running over, and just stood there with weapon sheathed so they could go ahead and kill me quickly. But what actually happened was that they were whacking and blasting away at me, yet my life bar didn't seem to be moving very much, whereas their life bar seemed to show that they were taking damage! Now, I do wear a set whose proc reflects damage back if I successfully block, but I wasn't bracing myself to try to block, just standing there. So presumably any reflected damage was coming from a CP perk or whatever-- unless maybe I momentarily blocked at the very beginning of the one-sided fight, then dropped it and just stood there. When I realized that they weren't able to kill me-- and I had no particular desire to try to kill them-- I just jumped in the lake and swam away to resume looking for the treasure map location. After I finally found it, I rode off to capture a resource for the deadly foes endeavor, and as I was sitting on my horse waiting for the banner to finish flipping, two enemy players came racing up. I was able to stay mounted long enough for the banner to flip, but they dismounted me as I was trying to ride away, so I ran back to them with weapon sheathed to get it over with and blood-port back home. That time I died quickly, because at least one of the players was dealing some serious damage to me. No matter how bad you think you are, there's always someone worse; and no matter how good you think you are, there's always someone better!

Agenericname · May 2023

Soarora wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

For those of you unfamiliar with mmo-campion it is mostly a Warcraft/Blizzard fansite, but it does have sub forums.

Here is the thread for ESO, the latest posts are pretty telling.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1743103-Megathread-The-Elder-Scrolls-Online-Tamriel-Unlimited/page213

The general consensus? ESO is a great game and they would play it more, but weaving/animation canceling is a huge turn off.

I know there are plenty people here who like it. But zos has to figure out how to introduce other combat styles, the combat here in ESO just turns too many people away.

Weaving is not a requirement, I've seen somewhere a no-la parse that was like 90k if my memory serves me correctly. There's also the new mythic that supports no-weave and I've gotten a 80+k parse on arcanist with it. LAs have been getting nerfs in recent updates to lower the gap between weaving, badly weaving, and not weaving at all. I don't even think anyone would ever know you're not weaving except in a parse and if your number is high who cares?

The people who are pulling 80k with that new mythic are the experts at this game. For basically everyone else, the people who depend upon oak and/or ha builds, this is not going to be appealing to them. If they do use it (which they won't), they will be lucky to hit 1/2 that and their dps will probably just be a third of what youtubers are showing.

Why?

Because it's not just weaving (which I would argue is still needed with this mythic because of ultimates) but the whole bar swapping mechanic it reintroduces. Juggling timers on two bars? Yeah, that is not selling point for the oak target audience.

Look zos, for what ever reason, is targeting mid-tier and mostly lower tier players with a nerf. Which means the pool of players capable of doing difficult content will go down, or at least the quality of players running difficult content will diminish.

So pug groups will be running content slower, less people will be doing trials, and more people will feel discouraged from trying pvp (which this new mythic basically forbids players from doing anyway), if they chose to stay with eso that is.

Thats what's going to happen.

EDIT: Oh! I just realized this new mythic also destroys HA builds. So those players will absolutely not use this mythic.

Thanks for the compliment? I was using it on a class I don't know very well using sets I wasn't sure would work (one from the new trial, other one was deadly strike) without using a single light attack. Of course people who are new to 2-bar would get lower DPS, but 80k isn't the ceiling either. OakenHA shouldn't be a fastpass of "I'm not good at this so lets use the easy build". I miss when oakensoul was built for 1-bar non-ha builds... I even used it for a 1-bar non-ha build... I do agree empower shouldn't be the target of nerfs though. Nerfing people who already do like 40k dps doesn't make sense. But anyways, the argument I was replying to is that WEAVING is the turn-off NOT barswapping. There is more to the game than 2-bar weaving traditional builds and 1-bar oakensoul heavy attack builds. The new mythic does not "destroy HA builds" it just is unusable on them.

And also HA shouldn't be in PvP. I don't mean this in a "get HA out of here" way I mean it as a warning. In battlegrounds at least they don't hit very hard and are easy to kill compared to everyone else.

Edit: Also the new mythic doesn't "forbid" people from being in PvP. It doesn't give you -15% damage for being in PvP. You just don't get the 15% buff. Because there were rightful concerns about things like ganking.

The new mythic, does not give any bonuses to pvp AND does not allow light and heavy attack from doing damage AND is basically blocking a five or two piece set from functioning.
It would functionally be the same as wearing only one ring and not being able to light or heavy attack in pvp. A dead gear location plus additional negatives.
So yes, it’s a big red stop sign for pvp, unless you really like dying a lot.

•••

The average dps in this game is roughly 20-25 dps (at best), if you are personally pulling off 80k dps with whatever set up you have, you are a rarity.
And the people doing 20-25k with the oak ring, the stam bow nbs, the dw templars, the wood elf (well anything), those people are getting nerfed.

Some people with this ring are just starting feeling confident enough to do vet dungeons. Maybe they are pulling 30k with their stam 2 handed build. Those people are getting nerfed.

And yes, the HA people who farmed the ring, AND got the scrying leveled up, AND farmed for all the sergeant pieces, AND farmed all the storm pieces, AND got the monster helmet, AND got their professions up, AND farmed enough currency to transform their gear, AND golded those pieces to be best they can be…
You know, the people who took the “easy” route to higher dps? They are getting nerfed too.

This whole thing is just bad on a lot of levels.

Not saying you should use the ring in PvP but it doesn't forbid anyone from being in PvP. Just wear something else or deal with the missing piece in an unoptimized build, it's not like LAs are easy to hit in PvP anyways with people cha-cha-roll-dodge-hide-behind-pillar arounding.

I'm fairly certain that the average DPS is so low because of people not using gear remotely optimized. When I first got serious about being a DPS I used a Xynode build and got 55k or so and that build wasn't even good for several reasons. Oakensoul isn’t getting nerfed. Stamina bow nightblade isn’t getting nerfed. Dual wield templars aren’t getting nerfed. Wood elves are not inherently bad damage nor are they getting nerfed. I have no idea what you’re talking about. And stam 2H with Oakensoul shouldn’t even be the target of nerfs. I said already empower isn’t what should be targetted I don’t know why you’re bringing this up. Scrying, farming (which mind you, is usually DLC dungeons and trials but for HA is non DLC), transmute, and golding things are not unique to HA whatsoever, traditional builds have to do that too. And professions do not need to be leveled, but many people have crafters as well. Most people don’t even seem to use that build anyways, opting for overland gear which is why their damage is so low.

And at the end of all of this.. I was not even talking about HA in the first place. I was talking about how people can choose to not weave. There are more build options than OakenHA and 2-bar weaving with spammable. People can choose to do a traditional build without weaving without any connection to HA. There are more playstyles. Not everything is about oakenHA.

I’m done talking about HA here. I’m excited for this mythic for my own use and I also hope that people who don’t want to weave feel more confident by using it. It has some unique theorycrafting challenges due to the inability to use most of the popular sets which is fun to work around. Might bring some build diversity back.

What popular sets does the mythic make a player unable to use?

The parses I have seen are 110-+120k, so I think it has the potential to be a solid mythic for some players. I suspect it'll be a little like Oak where its parse #s and actual performance in content differ substantially.

The extra pen and crit damage lead me to believe that it isnt made for optimized groups, though I could see it be good for something like vCR portals and opens up some options in 4 person. I think for people who dont weave well or find it painful that it will be a nice alternative.

If someone isn’t weaving they can’t use relequen, pillar, or whorl. Can’t use something like crystal weapon or the stamsorc dagger summon thing. Or nightblade bow skill. Can weave with the mythic and still use those but goes against the point of using the mythic. I’m not sure what’s up with the pen and crit either. I do think it’s very exciting though. I don’t weave well in content, iirc I’ll get like 30 LAs out of 130 skills because I’m busy thinking about mechanics (not that I don’t try, but my timing gets off), while my parses are only about 10 skill difference. Weaving also hurts sometimes.

Pillar procs off of damage, so its still viable. Whorl does require LA, but not weaving specifically. It just needs a LA every 18s. Relequen, yes, same with Crystal Weapon and Merciless Resolve, they wont be great for folks that arent weaving, but, they werent good choices prior to the mythic either. Nothing really changed there.

Northwold · May 2023

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/626539/do-you-actually-enjoy-the-light-heavy-attack-weaving-mechanic-within-esos-combat-system#latest

52% nay 47% aye.

More than half of the people who are invested enough in the game to come to the forums dislike it. This doesn't even count the casuals who don't venture the forums. I can only hope zos is careful when a majority have expressed their opinion on this.

"Come to the forums" that is a fraction of the player base. Hardly a majority.

I think that's kind of the point. If even the forums are coming out against it -- the hardcore players -- it's HIGHLY unlikely that most players out in the non forum world enjoy it.

Soarora · May 2023

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

And also HA shouldn't be in PvP. I don't mean this in a "get HA out of here" way I mean it as a warning. In battlegrounds at least they don't hit very hard and are easy to kill compared to everyone else.

As I understand it, Battlegrounds are no-CP "campaigns" (if that's the right word for a 15-minutes-or-less gladiator-like contest), so that's probably why the current "HA builds" don't seem to perform very well in Battlegrounds. In the CP campaigns in Cyrodiil and the Imperial City, the same builds can probably perform much better.

Note, I'm not really familiar with the current "HA builds"-- or any other builds, really-- beyond what little I've gleaned about them while reading these forums, because I don't watch Twitch streams or YouTube videos about builds, or read anyone's guides on the web about builds. I don't even consider my own characters to have any "builds" per se, since I just go with whatever attribute spreads, skill morphs, ability bar setups, CP perks, and gear that seems to give me the kinds of results I can live with for my preferred playstyle, rather than trying to deliberately "build" them for min-maxed BIS/META results according to any actual plan. So correct me if I'm wrong, but don't current HA builds rely heavily on specific CP perks?

If that's indeed the case, then it might be possible to come up with HA builds that do perform acceptably in Battlegrounds. I've played only a few Battleground matches myself, but both of my mains are 2H melee fighters who tend to use HAs and MAs most of the time, switching to LAs if necessary, although I'm not well-practiced at LA weaving and tend to do it backwards without meaning to (i.e., skill-LA, skill-LA, skill-LA rather than LA-skill, LA-skill, LA-skill). Anyway, my PC NA main does tend to be very squishy in Battlegrounds from what I've seen, although he's also made a few kills or assists. On the other hand, my PC EU main seems to be noticeably better in Battlegrounds, despite using HA weaving much of the time.

In contrast, the situation is pretty much reversed in Cyrodiil. The other day I decided to do 3 daily endeavors in Cyrodiil (repair structural damage, dig up a chest from a treasure map, and kill dangerous foes), and was stopping to harvest every resource node I saw as I was riding around trying to locate buried treasure. On PC NA I was stooping to harvest a node by a lake, saw an enemy player spot me and come running over, and just stood there with weapon sheathed so they could go ahead and kill me quickly. But what actually happened was that they were whacking and blasting away at me, yet my life bar didn't seem to be moving very much, whereas their life bar seemed to show that they were taking damage! Now, I do wear a set whose proc reflects damage back if I successfully block, but I wasn't bracing myself to try to block, just standing there. So presumably any reflected damage was coming from a CP perk or whatever-- unless maybe I momentarily blocked at the very beginning of the one-sided fight, then dropped it and just stood there. When I realized that they weren't able to kill me-- and I had no particular desire to try to kill them-- I just jumped in the lake and swam away to resume looking for the treasure map location. After I finally found it, I rode off to capture a resource for the deadly foes endeavor, and as I was sitting on my horse waiting for the banner to finish flipping, two enemy players came racing up. I was able to stay mounted long enough for the banner to flip, but they dismounted me as I was trying to ride away, so I ran back to them with weapon sheathed to get it over with and blood-port back home. That time I died quickly, because at least one of the players was dealing some serious damage to me. No matter how bad you think you are, there's always someone worse; and no matter how good you think you are, there's always someone better!

You can’t actually weave backwards it doesn’t matter which order you do it in. It’s been a long time since I’ve played in cyrodiil so I don’t know how HA is doing except in BGs. I mean they do damage and heal well but bonk the healpets and they die pretty easy and the only times I’ve died to a HA in the current bg scene were when there were other people there. Though, yes, it could be worse.

Lumenn · May 2023

Northwold wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/626539/do-you-actually-enjoy-the-light-heavy-attack-weaving-mechanic-within-esos-combat-system#latest

52% nay 47% aye.

More than half of the people who are invested enough in the game to come to the forums dislike it. This doesn't even count the casuals who don't venture the forums. I can only hope zos is careful when a majority have expressed their opinion on this.

"Come to the forums" that is a fraction of the player base. Hardly a majority.

I think that's kind of the point. If even the forums are coming out against it -- the hardcore players -- it's HIGHLY unlikely that most players out in the non forum world enjoy it.

It was, and it was such an odd reply to my original, but as it was a cherry picked 4 word quote out of 2 sentences, I simply added the sentences back in my reply to the individual. Like you, I believe most readers were able to see it for what it was, but thanks for reinforcing it 👍.

TKo_ROUSE · May 2023

Soarora wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

And also HA shouldn't be in PvP. I don't mean this in a "get HA out of here" way I mean it as a warning. In battlegrounds at least they don't hit very hard and are easy to kill compared to everyone else.

As I understand it, Battlegrounds are no-CP "campaigns" (if that's the right word for a 15-minutes-or-less gladiator-like contest), so that's probably why the current "HA builds" don't seem to perform very well in Battlegrounds. In the CP campaigns in Cyrodiil and the Imperial City, the same builds can probably perform much better.

Note, I'm not really familiar with the current "HA builds"-- or any other builds, really-- beyond what little I've gleaned about them while reading these forums, because I don't watch Twitch streams or YouTube videos about builds, or read anyone's guides on the web about builds. I don't even consider my own characters to have any "builds" per se, since I just go with whatever attribute spreads, skill morphs, ability bar setups, CP perks, and gear that seems to give me the kinds of results I can live with for my preferred playstyle, rather than trying to deliberately "build" them for min-maxed BIS/META results according to any actual plan. So correct me if I'm wrong, but don't current HA builds rely heavily on specific CP perks?

If that's indeed the case, then it might be possible to come up with HA builds that do perform acceptably in Battlegrounds. I've played only a few Battleground matches myself, but both of my mains are 2H melee fighters who tend to use HAs and MAs most of the time, switching to LAs if necessary, although I'm not well-practiced at LA weaving and tend to do it backwards without meaning to (i.e., skill-LA, skill-LA, skill-LA rather than LA-skill, LA-skill, LA-skill). Anyway, my PC NA main does tend to be very squishy in Battlegrounds from what I've seen, although he's also made a few kills or assists. On the other hand, my PC EU main seems to be noticeably better in Battlegrounds, despite using HA weaving much of the time.

In contrast, the situation is pretty much reversed in Cyrodiil. The other day I decided to do 3 daily endeavors in Cyrodiil (repair structural damage, dig up a chest from a treasure map, and kill dangerous foes), and was stopping to harvest every resource node I saw as I was riding around trying to locate buried treasure. On PC NA I was stooping to harvest a node by a lake, saw an enemy player spot me and come running over, and just stood there with weapon sheathed so they could go ahead and kill me quickly. But what actually happened was that they were whacking and blasting away at me, yet my life bar didn't seem to be moving very much, whereas their life bar seemed to show that they were taking damage! Now, I do wear a set whose proc reflects damage back if I successfully block, but I wasn't bracing myself to try to block, just standing there. So presumably any reflected damage was coming from a CP perk or whatever-- unless maybe I momentarily blocked at the very beginning of the one-sided fight, then dropped it and just stood there. When I realized that they weren't able to kill me-- and I had no particular desire to try to kill them-- I just jumped in the lake and swam away to resume looking for the treasure map location. After I finally found it, I rode off to capture a resource for the deadly foes endeavor, and as I was sitting on my horse waiting for the banner to finish flipping, two enemy players came racing up. I was able to stay mounted long enough for the banner to flip, but they dismounted me as I was trying to ride away, so I ran back to them with weapon sheathed to get it over with and blood-port back home. That time I died quickly, because at least one of the players was dealing some serious damage to me. No matter how bad you think you are, there's always someone worse; and no matter how good you think you are, there's always someone better!

You can’t actually weave backwards it doesn’t matter which order you do it in. It’s been a long time since I’ve played in cyrodiil so I don’t know how HA is doing except in BGs. I mean they do damage and heal well but bonk the healpets and they die pretty easy and the only times I’ve died to a HA in the current bg scene were when there were other people there. Though, yes, it could be worse.

You 100% can weave backwards. It is LA>skill. Doing it the other way will cause a ton of light attacks to miss. The light attack animation can be canceled by a skill. A skills animation can only be cancelled with a bar swap, roll dodge or block.

Soarora · May 2023

TKo_ROUSE wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

And also HA shouldn't be in PvP. I don't mean this in a "get HA out of here" way I mean it as a warning. In battlegrounds at least they don't hit very hard and are easy to kill compared to everyone else.

As I understand it, Battlegrounds are no-CP "campaigns" (if that's the right word for a 15-minutes-or-less gladiator-like contest), so that's probably why the current "HA builds" don't seem to perform very well in Battlegrounds. In the CP campaigns in Cyrodiil and the Imperial City, the same builds can probably perform much better.

Note, I'm not really familiar with the current "HA builds"-- or any other builds, really-- beyond what little I've gleaned about them while reading these forums, because I don't watch Twitch streams or YouTube videos about builds, or read anyone's guides on the web about builds. I don't even consider my own characters to have any "builds" per se, since I just go with whatever attribute spreads, skill morphs, ability bar setups, CP perks, and gear that seems to give me the kinds of results I can live with for my preferred playstyle, rather than trying to deliberately "build" them for min-maxed BIS/META results according to any actual plan. So correct me if I'm wrong, but don't current HA builds rely heavily on specific CP perks?

If that's indeed the case, then it might be possible to come up with HA builds that do perform acceptably in Battlegrounds. I've played only a few Battleground matches myself, but both of my mains are 2H melee fighters who tend to use HAs and MAs most of the time, switching to LAs if necessary, although I'm not well-practiced at LA weaving and tend to do it backwards without meaning to (i.e., skill-LA, skill-LA, skill-LA rather than LA-skill, LA-skill, LA-skill). Anyway, my PC NA main does tend to be very squishy in Battlegrounds from what I've seen, although he's also made a few kills or assists. On the other hand, my PC EU main seems to be noticeably better in Battlegrounds, despite using HA weaving much of the time.

In contrast, the situation is pretty much reversed in Cyrodiil. The other day I decided to do 3 daily endeavors in Cyrodiil (repair structural damage, dig up a chest from a treasure map, and kill dangerous foes), and was stopping to harvest every resource node I saw as I was riding around trying to locate buried treasure. On PC NA I was stooping to harvest a node by a lake, saw an enemy player spot me and come running over, and just stood there with weapon sheathed so they could go ahead and kill me quickly. But what actually happened was that they were whacking and blasting away at me, yet my life bar didn't seem to be moving very much, whereas their life bar seemed to show that they were taking damage! Now, I do wear a set whose proc reflects damage back if I successfully block, but I wasn't bracing myself to try to block, just standing there. So presumably any reflected damage was coming from a CP perk or whatever-- unless maybe I momentarily blocked at the very beginning of the one-sided fight, then dropped it and just stood there. When I realized that they weren't able to kill me-- and I had no particular desire to try to kill them-- I just jumped in the lake and swam away to resume looking for the treasure map location. After I finally found it, I rode off to capture a resource for the deadly foes endeavor, and as I was sitting on my horse waiting for the banner to finish flipping, two enemy players came racing up. I was able to stay mounted long enough for the banner to flip, but they dismounted me as I was trying to ride away, so I ran back to them with weapon sheathed to get it over with and blood-port back home. That time I died quickly, because at least one of the players was dealing some serious damage to me. No matter how bad you think you are, there's always someone worse; and no matter how good you think you are, there's always someone better!

You can’t actually weave backwards it doesn’t matter which order you do it in. It’s been a long time since I’ve played in cyrodiil so I don’t know how HA is doing except in BGs. I mean they do damage and heal well but bonk the healpets and they die pretty easy and the only times I’ve died to a HA in the current bg scene were when there were other people there. Though, yes, it could be worse.

You 100% can weave backwards. It is LA>skill. Doing it the other way will cause a ton of light attacks to miss. The light attack animation can be canceled by a skill. A skills animation can only be cancelled with a bar swap, roll dodge or block.

Would you not only miss the first skill? If you do skill la skill la you’re still doing las before skills, just not the first one. I guess it depends on timing but all weaving depends on timing.

TKo_ROUSE · May 2023

Soarora wrote: »

TKo_ROUSE wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

And also HA shouldn't be in PvP. I don't mean this in a "get HA out of here" way I mean it as a warning. In battlegrounds at least they don't hit very hard and are easy to kill compared to everyone else.

As I understand it, Battlegrounds are no-CP "campaigns" (if that's the right word for a 15-minutes-or-less gladiator-like contest), so that's probably why the current "HA builds" don't seem to perform very well in Battlegrounds. In the CP campaigns in Cyrodiil and the Imperial City, the same builds can probably perform much better.

Note, I'm not really familiar with the current "HA builds"-- or any other builds, really-- beyond what little I've gleaned about them while reading these forums, because I don't watch Twitch streams or YouTube videos about builds, or read anyone's guides on the web about builds. I don't even consider my own characters to have any "builds" per se, since I just go with whatever attribute spreads, skill morphs, ability bar setups, CP perks, and gear that seems to give me the kinds of results I can live with for my preferred playstyle, rather than trying to deliberately "build" them for min-maxed BIS/META results according to any actual plan. So correct me if I'm wrong, but don't current HA builds rely heavily on specific CP perks?

If that's indeed the case, then it might be possible to come up with HA builds that do perform acceptably in Battlegrounds. I've played only a few Battleground matches myself, but both of my mains are 2H melee fighters who tend to use HAs and MAs most of the time, switching to LAs if necessary, although I'm not well-practiced at LA weaving and tend to do it backwards without meaning to (i.e., skill-LA, skill-LA, skill-LA rather than LA-skill, LA-skill, LA-skill). Anyway, my PC NA main does tend to be very squishy in Battlegrounds from what I've seen, although he's also made a few kills or assists. On the other hand, my PC EU main seems to be noticeably better in Battlegrounds, despite using HA weaving much of the time.

In contrast, the situation is pretty much reversed in Cyrodiil. The other day I decided to do 3 daily endeavors in Cyrodiil (repair structural damage, dig up a chest from a treasure map, and kill dangerous foes), and was stopping to harvest every resource node I saw as I was riding around trying to locate buried treasure. On PC NA I was stooping to harvest a node by a lake, saw an enemy player spot me and come running over, and just stood there with weapon sheathed so they could go ahead and kill me quickly. But what actually happened was that they were whacking and blasting away at me, yet my life bar didn't seem to be moving very much, whereas their life bar seemed to show that they were taking damage! Now, I do wear a set whose proc reflects damage back if I successfully block, but I wasn't bracing myself to try to block, just standing there. So presumably any reflected damage was coming from a CP perk or whatever-- unless maybe I momentarily blocked at the very beginning of the one-sided fight, then dropped it and just stood there. When I realized that they weren't able to kill me-- and I had no particular desire to try to kill them-- I just jumped in the lake and swam away to resume looking for the treasure map location. After I finally found it, I rode off to capture a resource for the deadly foes endeavor, and as I was sitting on my horse waiting for the banner to finish flipping, two enemy players came racing up. I was able to stay mounted long enough for the banner to flip, but they dismounted me as I was trying to ride away, so I ran back to them with weapon sheathed to get it over with and blood-port back home. That time I died quickly, because at least one of the players was dealing some serious damage to me. No matter how bad you think you are, there's always someone worse; and no matter how good you think you are, there's always someone better!

You can’t actually weave backwards it doesn’t matter which order you do it in. It’s been a long time since I’ve played in cyrodiil so I don’t know how HA is doing except in BGs. I mean they do damage and heal well but bonk the healpets and they die pretty easy and the only times I’ve died to a HA in the current bg scene were when there were other people there. Though, yes, it could be worse.

You 100% can weave backwards. It is LA>skill. Doing it the other way will cause a ton of light attacks to miss. The light attack animation can be canceled by a skill. A skills animation can only be cancelled with a bar swap, roll dodge or block.

Would you not only miss the first skill? If you do skill la skill la you’re still doing las before skills, just not the first one. I guess it depends on timing but all weaving depends on timing.

I see what you are saying. But you are more thinking about the overall chain of inputs. Like yes you could start with a skill instead of a LA to begin your rotation:

Skill > LA > Skill > LA > Skill.

But it is easier to consider where the Pause should lie. Because skill cancels LA animation your rotation looks like this. This becomes more important as you weave faster.

LA > Skill > Short Pause for GCD > LA > Skill

If you backwards weave. Those light attacks will miss because a LA can't cancel the animation of a skill.

Skill > LA > Pause for GCD > Skill > LA

A possible exception would be if you have a very slow weave. Then it might work but that's more because you aren't utilizing the GCD fully at that point.

boi_anachronism_ · May 2023

Northwold wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/626539/do-you-actually-enjoy-the-light-heavy-attack-weaving-mechanic-within-esos-combat-system#latest

52% nay 47% aye.

More than half of the people who are invested enough in the game to come to the forums dislike it. This doesn't even count the casuals who don't venture the forums. I can only hope zos is careful when a majority have expressed their opinion on this.

"Come to the forums" that is a fraction of the player base. Hardly a majority.

I think that's kind of the point. If even the forums are coming out against it -- the hardcore players -- it's HIGHLY unlikely that most players out in the non forum world enjoy it.

That's hardly an argument and the split is nothing major either, its negligible and doesnt account for folks who are ambivalent. The forums are simply the loudest and either the most frustrated or the most in favor of the direction of the game. As I said it is impossible to measure based on a couple hundred players for that reason. If you had 70/30 or so with a wide sample say a few thousand people I'd be much more inclined to give credence. As it stands there is really no basis to make a judgment period. Regardless la is not going away. It's been years, it's now an integral part of the game and players can absolutely hit 80k+ without weaving at all. As for the ha sorc you can break 80k using 2 skills and ha. That's literally all you need to do.

Northwold · May 2023

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/626539/do-you-actually-enjoy-the-light-heavy-attack-weaving-mechanic-within-esos-combat-system#latest

52% nay 47% aye.

More than half of the people who are invested enough in the game to come to the forums dislike it. This doesn't even count the casuals who don't venture the forums. I can only hope zos is careful when a majority have expressed their opinion on this.

"Come to the forums" that is a fraction of the player base. Hardly a majority.

I think that's kind of the point. If even the forums are coming out against it -- the hardcore players -- it's HIGHLY unlikely that most players out in the non forum world enjoy it.

That's hardly an argument and the split is nothing major either, its negligible and doesnt account for folks who are ambivalent. The forums are simply the loudest and either the most frustrated or the most in favor of the direction of the game. As I said it is impossible to measure based on a couple hundred players for that reason. If you had 70/30 or so with a wide sample say a few thousand people I'd be much more inclined to give credence. As it stands there is really no basis to make a judgment period. Regardless la is not going away. It's been years, it's now an integral part of the game and players can absolutely hit 80k+ without weaving at all. As for the ha sorc you can break 80k using 2 skills and ha. That's literally all you need to do.

Then do it on reddit. We know what the answer will be. Same as with trading guild alternatives. Same as with account wide achievements. The user base here is ultra conservative and disproportionately made up of players who play the game really a lot and have done so for a long time. This isn't news.

valenwood_vegan · May 2023

I'm not a big fan of the weaving mechanic, though I have grudgingly learned it over thousands of hours of playtime and I don't hate it as much as I did when I was new. I'm glad things are being added to the game that promote alternate playstyles. I play with a two-bar character who uses Kinras and has to weave and I have fun... I also play with a one-bar oakensoul HA templar and have fun. And I have 16 other characters that fall somewhere between these extremes, and I have fun with them too.

I'm not as young as I was when I used to be a sweaty raider-type, and I'm still ok but not GREAT at weaving. Viable HA builds have opened up a lot more content for me, and I think for others as well. This is a GOOD thing. But it's also nice to have something to work toward improving. I think I would eventually get bored just HA'ing my way though the endgame.

I hope they keep allowing people more freedom to weave or not to weave.

That said, it's disingenuous for any of us to make claims that we *know* what the majority of players want. We don't. The forums likely don't represent the majority of players. I don't know. Reddit likely doesn't represent the majority of players either. I don't know. At least people on the forums actually play the game... I have no idea who this chorus of voices on Reddit represents.

I guess what I'm trying to say is just to consider... if the forums are an echo chamber of long term players and their interests... Reddit or other outside forums could be an echo chamber of dissatisfied players or players who prefer and want to promote other games. We really don't know. If one looks on Steam, another source of information, the reviews trend mostly positive, which suggests that many people who play the game are enjoying it. But again, who knows what this really represents in terms of the overall playerbase?

Does that mean it's not worth listening to different perspectives? Of course not. But let's not try to pretend that we *know* that one group is a minority whose opinions lack merit and one group is some kind of silent majority that the game should cater to.

Amottica · May 2023

BlueRaven wrote: »

For those of you unfamiliar with mmo-campion it is mostly a Warcraft/Blizzard fansite, but it does have sub forums.

Here is the thread for ESO, the latest posts are pretty telling.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1743103-Megathread-The-Elder-Scrolls-Online-Tamriel-Unlimited/page213

The general consensus? ESO is a great game and they would play it more, but weaving/animation canceling is a huge turn off.

I know there are plenty people here who like it. But zos has to figure out how to introduce other combat styles, the combat here in ESO just turns too many people away.

Actually, Zenimax tested a change during an off-cycle PTS. The change would have de-emphasized light attacks damage. The feedback was overwhelmingly against the change.

Zenimax listened. In the end Zenimax acknowledged that the current combat style was a big part of why so many players choose ESO so they ditched the changes being tested.

Sure. The combat system turns some played away just as many of us are turned away from the antiquated designs of WoW and FF.

MudcrabAttack · May 2023

As far as Arcanist goes, here are my own observations from PTS:

Light attacks (121K) > No attacks (114K) > Heavy attacks (80K)

Light weaving

No weaving - (94% of LA build)

Heavy weaving (66% of LA build)

I'm not sure how to min/max a heavy attack build for Arcanist

As far as # actions per minute, the arcanist beam takes almost 5 seconds to finish beaming, so it feels like the same APM as a heavy attack build, but with more bursts of skills in between.

jtm1018 · May 2023

I thought they already outlawed weaving, but raising the floor and lowering the ceiling.

Or did I misunderstood that in their patch notes way back a few patches.

siddique · May 2023

This whole idea that has taken root in people's minds that people who practice to be good at something and people who don't should somehow be equal.

Equality of opportunity, to have the same playing field is a desirable thing. Equality of outcomes isn't.

If you are a casual, you cannot put in the effort, you dont have time, you have a disability, its all very unfortunate, but you cannot expect to be able to do things at par with people who do put in the effort and hard work.

BlueRaven · May 2023

siddique wrote: »

This whole idea that has taken root in people's minds that people who practice to be good at something and people who don't should somehow be equal.

Equality of opportunity, to have the same playing field is a desirable thing. Equality of outcomes isn't.

If you are a casual, you cannot put in the effort, you dont have time, you have a disability, its all very unfortunate, but you cannot expect to be able to do things at par with people who do put in the effort and hard work.

Not being “equal” is one thing. But the top end dps being 5x, 6x, or more than the average is not tenable.

A weaver vs non weaver, in the same gear, should at most be 2x (in my opinion) and in optimized gear, about 3x.
Sure, having perfect gear and skill should be rewarded (is anybody here claiming they shouldn’t really?) but the amount of “reward” needs to be toned down.
The dps discrepancies between top vs casual is too high at the moment.

Tradewind · May 2023

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

As far as Arcanist goes, here are my own observations from PTS:

Light attacks (121K) > No attacks (114K) > Heavy attacks (80K)

Light weaving

No weaving - (94% of LA build)

Heavy weaving (66% of LA build)
I'm not sure how to min/max a heavy attack build for Arcanist

As far as # actions per minute, the arcanist beam takes almost 5 seconds to finish beaming, so it feels like the same APM as a heavy attack build, but with more bursts of skills in between.

Zenimax will nerf HA builds because this kind of build is close to top-tier elite players. But if we buy the new chapter and use the new mystic, and not weaving at all, we can have more DPS with it than using HA builds.
Help me understand how this can make any sense.
What kind of balance is this? If this is not meant to help increase the sales of Necrom, then please help me understand this DPS balance.

If this isn't pay-to-win, then what is it?

BlueRaven · May 2023

Tradewind wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

As far as Arcanist goes, here are my own observations from PTS:

Light attacks (121K) > No attacks (114K) > Heavy attacks (80K)

Light weaving

No weaving - (94% of LA build)

Heavy weaving (66% of LA build)
I'm not sure how to min/max a heavy attack build for Arcanist

As far as # actions per minute, the arcanist beam takes almost 5 seconds to finish beaming, so it feels like the same APM as a heavy attack build, but with more bursts of skills in between.

Zenimax will nerf HA builds because this kind of build is close to top-tier elite players. But if we buy the new chapter and use the new mystic, and not weaving at all, we can have more DPS with it than using HA builds.
Help me understand how this can make any sense.
What kind of balance is this? If this is not meant to help increase the sales of Necrom, then please help me understand this DPS balance.

If this isn't pay-to-win, then what is it?

It’s questionable if that new mythic is even worth the bother of acquiring.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/633451/velothi-ur-mage-s-amulet-no-difference-in-parse-dummy-3m-solo-noob-player

The TLDR is, if you have an appropriate gear set for what you are doing, the mythic has minimal net affect on overall dps. (And to get to that overall “net neutral” dps, some weaving is still required to maintain ultimates.)

Roztlin45 · May 2023

If you swing a weapon or cast spells ,the action should show. It is a violation of physics. It should not have been allowed to remain all these years but it did. I doubt it will ever go away.
Now.if I could animation cancel my way out of stuck in combat bug..now that would be a feature!

Jammy420 · May 2023

BlueRaven wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

For those of you unfamiliar with mmo-campion it is mostly a Warcraft/Blizzard fansite, but it does have sub forums.

Here is the thread for ESO, the latest posts are pretty telling.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1743103-Megathread-The-Elder-Scrolls-Online-Tamriel-Unlimited/page213

The general consensus? ESO is a great game and they would play it more, but weaving/animation canceling is a huge turn off.

I know there are plenty people here who like it. But zos has to figure out how to introduce other combat styles, the combat here in ESO just turns too many people away.

Weaving is not a requirement, I've seen somewhere a no-la parse that was like 90k if my memory serves me correctly. There's also the new mythic that supports no-weave and I've gotten a 80+k parse on arcanist with it. LAs have been getting nerfs in recent updates to lower the gap between weaving, badly weaving, and not weaving at all. I don't even think anyone would ever know you're not weaving except in a parse and if your number is high who cares?

The people who are pulling 80k with that new mythic are the experts at this game. For basically everyone else, the people who depend upon oak and/or ha builds, this is not going to be appealing to them. If they do use it (which they won't), they will be lucky to hit 1/2 that and their dps will probably just be a third of what youtubers are showing.

Why?

Because it's not just weaving (which I would argue is still needed with this mythic because of ultimates) but the whole bar swapping mechanic it reintroduces. Juggling timers on two bars? Yeah, that is not selling point for the oak target audience.

Look zos, for what ever reason, is targeting mid-tier and mostly lower tier players with a nerf. Which means the pool of players capable of doing difficult content will go down, or at least the quality of players running difficult content will diminish.

So pug groups will be running content slower, less people will be doing trials, and more people will feel discouraged from trying pvp (which this new mythic basically forbids players from doing anyway), if they chose to stay with eso that is.

Thats what's going to happen.

EDIT: Oh! I just realized this new mythic also destroys HA builds. So those players will absolutely not use this mythic.

Or people can just practice more, and zos is finally embracing practice makes perfect. As it should be.

Jammy420 · May 2023

Roztlin45 wrote: »

If you swing a weapon or cast spells ,the action should show. It is a violation of physics. It should not have been allowed to remain all these years but it did. I doubt it will ever go away.
Now.if I could animation cancel my way out of stuck in combat bug..now that would be a feature!

Ah yes, the physics argument, in a game with dragons, portals, super speed sprinting, mages who can jump from continent to continent by paying gold, and a market system that defies all logic.

BlueRaven · May 2023

Jammy420 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

For those of you unfamiliar with mmo-campion it is mostly a Warcraft/Blizzard fansite, but it does have sub forums.

Here is the thread for ESO, the latest posts are pretty telling.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1743103-Megathread-The-Elder-Scrolls-Online-Tamriel-Unlimited/page213

The general consensus? ESO is a great game and they would play it more, but weaving/animation canceling is a huge turn off.

I know there are plenty people here who like it. But zos has to figure out how to introduce other combat styles, the combat here in ESO just turns too many people away.

Weaving is not a requirement, I've seen somewhere a no-la parse that was like 90k if my memory serves me correctly. There's also the new mythic that supports no-weave and I've gotten a 80+k parse on arcanist with it. LAs have been getting nerfs in recent updates to lower the gap between weaving, badly weaving, and not weaving at all. I don't even think anyone would ever know you're not weaving except in a parse and if your number is high who cares?

The people who are pulling 80k with that new mythic are the experts at this game. For basically everyone else, the people who depend upon oak and/or ha builds, this is not going to be appealing to them. If they do use it (which they won't), they will be lucky to hit 1/2 that and their dps will probably just be a third of what youtubers are showing.

Why?

Because it's not just weaving (which I would argue is still needed with this mythic because of ultimates) but the whole bar swapping mechanic it reintroduces. Juggling timers on two bars? Yeah, that is not selling point for the oak target audience.

Look zos, for what ever reason, is targeting mid-tier and mostly lower tier players with a nerf. Which means the pool of players capable of doing difficult content will go down, or at least the quality of players running difficult content will diminish.

So pug groups will be running content slower, less people will be doing trials, and more people will feel discouraged from trying pvp (which this new mythic basically forbids players from doing anyway), if they chose to stay with eso that is.

Thats what's going to happen.

EDIT: Oh! I just realized this new mythic also destroys HA builds. So those players will absolutely not use this mythic.

Or people can just practice more, and zos is finally embracing practice makes perfect. As it should be.

The oak ring was not created in a vacuum, it was made for a particular purpose and target audience. That audience is not going to suddenly “get gud” by continual nerfing of the ring. It’s just going to revert the lower end dps capabilities of that audience back to how they were before the ring was created.