Let's talk about weaving

Jammy420

BlueRaven wrote: »

Jammy420 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

For those of you unfamiliar with mmo-campion it is mostly a Warcraft/Blizzard fansite, but it does have sub forums.

Here is the thread for ESO, the latest posts are pretty telling.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1743103-Megathread-The-Elder-Scrolls-Online-Tamriel-Unlimited/page213

The general consensus? ESO is a great game and they would play it more, but weaving/animation canceling is a huge turn off.

I know there are plenty people here who like it. But zos has to figure out how to introduce other combat styles, the combat here in ESO just turns too many people away.

Weaving is not a requirement, I've seen somewhere a no-la parse that was like 90k if my memory serves me correctly. There's also the new mythic that supports no-weave and I've gotten a 80+k parse on arcanist with it. LAs have been getting nerfs in recent updates to lower the gap between weaving, badly weaving, and not weaving at all. I don't even think anyone would ever know you're not weaving except in a parse and if your number is high who cares?

The people who are pulling 80k with that new mythic are the experts at this game. For basically everyone else, the people who depend upon oak and/or ha builds, this is not going to be appealing to them. If they do use it (which they won't), they will be lucky to hit 1/2 that and their dps will probably just be a third of what youtubers are showing.

Why?

Because it's not just weaving (which I would argue is still needed with this mythic because of ultimates) but the whole bar swapping mechanic it reintroduces. Juggling timers on two bars? Yeah, that is not selling point for the oak target audience.

Look zos, for what ever reason, is targeting mid-tier and mostly lower tier players with a nerf. Which means the pool of players capable of doing difficult content will go down, or at least the quality of players running difficult content will diminish.

So pug groups will be running content slower, less people will be doing trials, and more people will feel discouraged from trying pvp (which this new mythic basically forbids players from doing anyway), if they chose to stay with eso that is.

Thats what's going to happen.

EDIT: Oh! I just realized this new mythic also destroys HA builds. So those players will absolutely not use this mythic.

Or people can just practice more, and zos is finally embracing practice makes perfect. As it should be.

The oak ring was not created in a vacuum, it was made for a particular purpose and target audience. That audience is not going to suddenly “get gud” by continual nerfing of the ring. It’s just going to revert the lower end dps capabilities of that audience back to how they were before the ring was created.

No one is saying "git gud"

Practice makes perfect is something I learned from my teachers in kindergarten, in martial arts, in drawing classes, its encouragement. It isnt something that is meant with malice. It is meant to encourage people to better themselves in a positive manner. -That- is what should be embraced. And ZoS is embracing it, even with the ring, because the ring and the heavy attack nerfs are indicative of that. Yes they are, and should, make the game more accessible, but accessiblity doesn't mean practice should be removed as a necessity to better yourself.

tmbrinks

BlueRaven wrote: »

Jammy420 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

For those of you unfamiliar with mmo-campion it is mostly a Warcraft/Blizzard fansite, but it does have sub forums.

Here is the thread for ESO, the latest posts are pretty telling.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1743103-Megathread-The-Elder-Scrolls-Online-Tamriel-Unlimited/page213

The general consensus? ESO is a great game and they would play it more, but weaving/animation canceling is a huge turn off.

I know there are plenty people here who like it. But zos has to figure out how to introduce other combat styles, the combat here in ESO just turns too many people away.

Weaving is not a requirement, I've seen somewhere a no-la parse that was like 90k if my memory serves me correctly. There's also the new mythic that supports no-weave and I've gotten a 80+k parse on arcanist with it. LAs have been getting nerfs in recent updates to lower the gap between weaving, badly weaving, and not weaving at all. I don't even think anyone would ever know you're not weaving except in a parse and if your number is high who cares?

The people who are pulling 80k with that new mythic are the experts at this game. For basically everyone else, the people who depend upon oak and/or ha builds, this is not going to be appealing to them. If they do use it (which they won't), they will be lucky to hit 1/2 that and their dps will probably just be a third of what youtubers are showing.

Why?

Because it's not just weaving (which I would argue is still needed with this mythic because of ultimates) but the whole bar swapping mechanic it reintroduces. Juggling timers on two bars? Yeah, that is not selling point for the oak target audience.

Look zos, for what ever reason, is targeting mid-tier and mostly lower tier players with a nerf. Which means the pool of players capable of doing difficult content will go down, or at least the quality of players running difficult content will diminish.

So pug groups will be running content slower, less people will be doing trials, and more people will feel discouraged from trying pvp (which this new mythic basically forbids players from doing anyway), if they chose to stay with eso that is.

Thats what's going to happen.

EDIT: Oh! I just realized this new mythic also destroys HA builds. So those players will absolutely not use this mythic.

Or people can just practice more, and zos is finally embracing practice makes perfect. As it should be.

The oak ring was not created in a vacuum, it was made for a particular purpose and target audience. That audience is not going to suddenly “get gud” by continual nerfing of the ring. It’s just going to revert the lower end dps capabilities of that audience back to how they were before the ring was created.

The mythic increased those players' damage by 200-300%. They're getting a 5% nerf. Saying they're going to "be back to how they were before the ring was created" is disingenuous.

WiseSky

Weaving feels amazing if you have an mmo mouse…

The heart Beat concept changes everything

MudcrabAttack

Tradewind wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

As far as Arcanist goes, here are my own observations from PTS:

Light attacks (121K) > No attacks (114K) > Heavy attacks (80K)

Light weaving

No weaving - (94% of LA build)

Heavy weaving (66% of LA build)

I'm not sure how to min/max a heavy attack build for Arcanist

As far as # actions per minute, the arcanist beam takes almost 5 seconds to finish beaming, so it feels like the same APM as a heavy attack build, but with more bursts of skills in between.

Zenimax will nerf HA builds because this kind of build is close to top-tier elite players. But if we buy the new chapter and use the new mystic, and not weaving at all, we can have more DPS with it than using HA builds.
Help me understand how this can make any sense.
What kind of balance is this? If this is not meant to help increase the sales of Necrom, then please help me understand this DPS balance.

If this isn't pay-to-win, then what is it?

TBF the light attack and no attack builds I tried were using two bars and the way too expensive minor heroism potions. You could subtract about 3k when using typical potions.

But even with all that said, it’s still a really big gap. I tried the same “no attack” build thing on my nightblade and got 90k dps.

One might argue that Oakensoul makes you a tank, so maybe it should deal less dps. But the no attack build I tried can involve block casting most skills (hold down right mouse button while cycling through the 1 second cooldown skills, which drains stamina and builds up the choral riptide buff, and absorbs lots of incoming damage) then swap to pragmatic fatecarver for a shield when beaming. You can’t block-cast fatecarver but you can get a big shield. It can be super tanky when played that way without harming dps at all, in fact blocking any damage will build ultimate so you really don’t need to light attack at all

FantasticFreddie

isadoraisacat wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Weaving requires 1 mouse click and 1 skill button click per second. That's 120 "clicks" per minute. After playing brass instruments at a high level for a decade plus, it's quite slow, and far fewer clicks, just have to stay on rhythm.

Some people don’t like rhythm games.
I’ve been playing guitar and bass In bands since the 90s, playing an instrument creates something this is just mindless clicking, in a game series that should be more immersive with more realistic combat.

Some people have bad ping / and or disabilities which makes playing non musical guitar hero not possible.

Some times people just want to cast spells and role play in a role playing game and not play medieval fantasy guitar hero.

And a no light attack, all heavy attack build can clear all content in the game.

Not at every difficulty level, but all content, easily. Not everybody can clear guitar hero on expert, but it's accessible to everybody on easy and medium modes, so everybody gets to enjoy the content still. ESO is no different.

I really don't understand the trying to remove a playstyle that is optional... other than at the absolute end-game fringes of the game such as new content trifectas and score pushing.

My point isn’t that people can clear hard games on guitar hero. My point is rhythm combat does not fit the elder scrolls as a game. Many people don’t like it as it feels like a shooter / fighting button masher like mortal combat mixed with guitar hero. The combat is not fun… this is not an esport it’s an elder scrolls game.

Heavy attack won’t be able to clear all content because players of that style are vote kicked and not allowed into combat because for whatever reason people are obsessed with pew pew combat.

I know of a GS group and a PB group that are HA oriented, and they have no plans to change that after the patch. You are simply wrong.

BlueRaven

tmbrinks wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Jammy420 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

For those of you unfamiliar with mmo-campion it is mostly a Warcraft/Blizzard fansite, but it does have sub forums.

Here is the thread for ESO, the latest posts are pretty telling.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1743103-Megathread-The-Elder-Scrolls-Online-Tamriel-Unlimited/page213

The general consensus? ESO is a great game and they would play it more, but weaving/animation canceling is a huge turn off.

I know there are plenty people here who like it. But zos has to figure out how to introduce other combat styles, the combat here in ESO just turns too many people away.

Weaving is not a requirement, I've seen somewhere a no-la parse that was like 90k if my memory serves me correctly. There's also the new mythic that supports no-weave and I've gotten a 80+k parse on arcanist with it. LAs have been getting nerfs in recent updates to lower the gap between weaving, badly weaving, and not weaving at all. I don't even think anyone would ever know you're not weaving except in a parse and if your number is high who cares?

The people who are pulling 80k with that new mythic are the experts at this game. For basically everyone else, the people who depend upon oak and/or ha builds, this is not going to be appealing to them. If they do use it (which they won't), they will be lucky to hit 1/2 that and their dps will probably just be a third of what youtubers are showing.

Why?

Because it's not just weaving (which I would argue is still needed with this mythic because of ultimates) but the whole bar swapping mechanic it reintroduces. Juggling timers on two bars? Yeah, that is not selling point for the oak target audience.

Look zos, for what ever reason, is targeting mid-tier and mostly lower tier players with a nerf. Which means the pool of players capable of doing difficult content will go down, or at least the quality of players running difficult content will diminish.

So pug groups will be running content slower, less people will be doing trials, and more people will feel discouraged from trying pvp (which this new mythic basically forbids players from doing anyway), if they chose to stay with eso that is.

Thats what's going to happen.

EDIT: Oh! I just realized this new mythic also destroys HA builds. So those players will absolutely not use this mythic.

Or people can just practice more, and zos is finally embracing practice makes perfect. As it should be.

The oak ring was not created in a vacuum, it was made for a particular purpose and target audience. That audience is not going to suddenly “get gud” by continual nerfing of the ring. It’s just going to revert the lower end dps capabilities of that audience back to how they were before the ring was created.

The mythic increased those players' damage by 200-300%. They're getting a 5% nerf. Saying they're going to "be back to how they were before the ring was created" is disingenuous.

The ring has been nerfed several times, and yet there is still calls for further nerfs. All that is doing is moving the utility downward to the time before the rings creation. Widening the gap between top and bottom.

Look, I want less people doing vet content just as much as you apparently do. Less people doing vet content means less budget on vet content, which gives other parts of the game greater chances to have higher budgets.

Maybe with less people doing them we can move trials to every other year. And the elimination of further single person arenas.

I am not being sarcastic.

I like leveling alts, goofing around with overland sets, and making more rpish builds while doing so. (And housing.)
I will be fine absolutely not doing vet content.

I have done vet content, I will continue to help when asked, but at my age I am not really all that interested in it anymore.

Zos needs to support players doing low end dps or just give up on balancing. This death by a thousand cuts to low end dps needs to either stop, or just stop helping low end at all and destroy their portion of the “vet” population along with it. Open the door or close it, just pick something.

[Snip]

[Edited for baiting]

tmbrinks

BlueRaven wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Jammy420 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

For those of you unfamiliar with mmo-campion it is mostly a Warcraft/Blizzard fansite, but it does have sub forums.

Here is the thread for ESO, the latest posts are pretty telling.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1743103-Megathread-The-Elder-Scrolls-Online-Tamriel-Unlimited/page213

The general consensus? ESO is a great game and they would play it more, but weaving/animation canceling is a huge turn off.

I know there are plenty people here who like it. But zos has to figure out how to introduce other combat styles, the combat here in ESO just turns too many people away.

Weaving is not a requirement, I've seen somewhere a no-la parse that was like 90k if my memory serves me correctly. There's also the new mythic that supports no-weave and I've gotten a 80+k parse on arcanist with it. LAs have been getting nerfs in recent updates to lower the gap between weaving, badly weaving, and not weaving at all. I don't even think anyone would ever know you're not weaving except in a parse and if your number is high who cares?

The people who are pulling 80k with that new mythic are the experts at this game. For basically everyone else, the people who depend upon oak and/or ha builds, this is not going to be appealing to them. If they do use it (which they won't), they will be lucky to hit 1/2 that and their dps will probably just be a third of what youtubers are showing.

Why?

Because it's not just weaving (which I would argue is still needed with this mythic because of ultimates) but the whole bar swapping mechanic it reintroduces. Juggling timers on two bars? Yeah, that is not selling point for the oak target audience.

Look zos, for what ever reason, is targeting mid-tier and mostly lower tier players with a nerf. Which means the pool of players capable of doing difficult content will go down, or at least the quality of players running difficult content will diminish.

So pug groups will be running content slower, less people will be doing trials, and more people will feel discouraged from trying pvp (which this new mythic basically forbids players from doing anyway), if they chose to stay with eso that is.

Thats what's going to happen.

EDIT: Oh! I just realized this new mythic also destroys HA builds. So those players will absolutely not use this mythic.

Or people can just practice more, and zos is finally embracing practice makes perfect. As it should be.

The oak ring was not created in a vacuum, it was made for a particular purpose and target audience. That audience is not going to suddenly “get gud” by continual nerfing of the ring. It’s just going to revert the lower end dps capabilities of that audience back to how they were before the ring was created.

The mythic increased those players' damage by 200-300%. They're getting a 5% nerf. Saying they're going to "be back to how they were before the ring was created" is disingenuous.

The ring has been nerfed several times, and yet there is still calls for further nerfs. All that is doing is moving the utility downward to the time before the rings creation. Widening the gap between top and bottom.

Look, I want less people doing vet content just as much as you apparently do. Less people doing vet content means less budget on vet content, which gives other parts of the game greater chances to have higher budgets.

Maybe with less people doing them we can move trials to every other year. And the elimination of further single person arenas.

I am not being sarcastic.

I like leveling alts, goofing around with overland sets, and making more rpish builds while doing so. (And housing.)
I will be fine absolutely not doing vet content.

I have done vet content, I will continue to help when asked, but at my age I am not really all that interested in it anymore.

Zos needs to support players doing low end dps or just give up on balancing. This death by a thousand cuts to low end dps needs to either stop, or just stop helping low end at all and destroy their portion of the “vet” population along with it. Open the door or close it, just pick something.

[Snip]

Yes, because it was massively overpowered for what you needed to do to maximize the build.

It was able to get trial trifectas - supposedly the absolute apex of performance in this game, and the hardest possible content - just by its existence. Single player games have difficulty levels to accommodate players of different skills (usually 4-6 of them). ESO only has 3. Players using Oakensoul have access to 2 of the 3 for literally everything in the game... and still much of the 3rd tier.

This 5% nerf isn't going to change the accessibility for any normal or veteran content while using the mythic. It's still going to allow many, many, many players who couldn't access that content be able to. You aren't locked out of ANY story, ANY content.

[Snip]

[Edited for removed content/quote]

Ph1p

BlueRaven wrote: »

The ring has been nerfed several times, and yet there is still calls for further nerfs. All that is doing is moving the utility downward to the time before the rings creation. Widening the gap between top and bottom.

Let's stick to the facts here. The Oakensoul Ring was released in Update 34 and originally granted many Major Buffs, which were deemed too strong. So Update 35 changed/nerfed these buffs to be Minor Buffs only, but in return added several other buffs as well as Empower, which made HA Oakensorc builds a thing in the first place. I don't see how this amounts to being "nerfed several times", unless you count the changes that happened on the PTS for Update 34.

EDIT: Typo