Thoughts of a Random Guy on Necrom Changes to HA / Heavy-Attack builds & on Arcanist

Ragnarok0130 · May 2023

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I wrote a big post above talking about the problems having the top end dps being extremely high (while nerfing the middle and low end).

From what I understand, the average dps in this game is roughly somewhere between 15-25k (before this nerf). This was hinted at with the introduction of companions, when the developers stated they did not want the companion dps to be higher than the average player’s.

So just think about what that means. The top dps, doing five to six times the average players dps.

Not twice or three times the average, but five to six times the average.

And in eso, where gear is kind of accessible, it means a lot of this difference falls upon the combat system itself.

Does that sound healthy for any game? If I was developing content for this game, I would not know where to begin.
How do I balance something “difficult”, twice the average dps? But the high end will destroy it.
80% of high end dps? Still too easy for them but how many people are going to see it anyway.

You have to create an accessible vet level, then a full throttle hard mode? Do we need to add layers in between now? That’s crazy.

But that 15-20k is 100% not on a trial dummy. End game parses are using the trial dummy. People keep throwing out these sub 30k heavy attack parses that are clearly not on a trial dummy, and then trying to compare themselves to players hitting 80K on a trial dummy.

That player hitting 80k on a trial dummy with oakensoul is hitting 28k on a 3m dummy doing the same thing, without penetration.

28k/80k is the floor for a completed setup oakensorcs build. If you aren't hitting that, your build isn't finished and your parse isn't valid for balancing consideration.

And the reason that is the floor is because that is the DPS the build gets with just holding the heavy attack button down.

So, even if the average player on normal builds hit 15-20k on a 3M dummy, they are being out parsed by oaken builds by a whole lot.

And for non oaken builds, a player doing 130K DPS is likely hitting around 50k on a normal dummy. Which is right in that 2-3 times the average range.

I got 59k on the trial dummy and I get between 28-32 dps on the 3 mill. So I’m not getting 80k I actually posted my results here.

Yeah, and your build isn't complete, as has been mentioned previously.

Again, 80K, with just holding heavy attack down is the baseline of the build. It takes no skill to do so, absolutely zero parsing. Just holding 1 button the entire time while the dummy dies.

But also, let's look at comparisons here. You hit 30k average now on the 3M. Awesome. My solo 2 bar build that solos vet dungeons and does vet trials and vet arenas, does 20M on a 3M dummy.

So already, your build does 10K more DPS than a build that is capable of doing 90% of content in the game.

Your build, at worst will lost 2K. So 28K average DPS, again, still doing 8K more than a solo two bar build that is capable of doing the same content.

You will be fine. Your build isn't even complete yet, you still have like 20k more DPS to land in your lap from just heavy attacking.

That’s why I’d rather switch to healer for group stuff so I can avoid the resentment and than play how I want solo (if it will even be viable anymore ).

@isadoraisacat just remember that healing can be even more stressful than DPSing depending on the content; it's not a stand in for HA builds as you're constantly casting skills, maintaining buffs, etc. and a higher CPM is expected. I know that we frequently clash on forums topics but it's not personal so if you do start healing DM me and I can give you pointers, build advice, and good resources to use as well as guidance on which sets to farm since healers are expected to have a lot of sets ready to go. Healing is not a get out of jail free card and we are judged by metrics such as raw HPS and buff/debuff uptimes just like DPS are judged on their DPS. Since we don't have a healing trial dummy we are often expected to link our clears, our gear sets, and even logs when applying for a guild as a healer or a core team as a healer so don't be surprised if that is requested should you make the transition to healer. There are also addons that you should run as a healer and I can point you in the right direction for those as well.

Regarding if your DPS build will be viable, I assure you that it will be, it's a small adjustment as ZoS goes and you will likely not notice the performance drop when Necrom drops and if you keep up to date on new build tweaks from your favorite content creators you're likely to regain most if not all of the performance when they adjust the builds in response to these changes.

isadoraisacat · May 2023

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I wrote a big post above talking about the problems having the top end dps being extremely high (while nerfing the middle and low end).

From what I understand, the average dps in this game is roughly somewhere between 15-25k (before this nerf). This was hinted at with the introduction of companions, when the developers stated they did not want the companion dps to be higher than the average player’s.

So just think about what that means. The top dps, doing five to six times the average players dps.

Not twice or three times the average, but five to six times the average.

And in eso, where gear is kind of accessible, it means a lot of this difference falls upon the combat system itself.

Does that sound healthy for any game? If I was developing content for this game, I would not know where to begin.
How do I balance something “difficult”, twice the average dps? But the high end will destroy it.
80% of high end dps? Still too easy for them but how many people are going to see it anyway.

You have to create an accessible vet level, then a full throttle hard mode? Do we need to add layers in between now? That’s crazy.

But that 15-20k is 100% not on a trial dummy. End game parses are using the trial dummy. People keep throwing out these sub 30k heavy attack parses that are clearly not on a trial dummy, and then trying to compare themselves to players hitting 80K on a trial dummy.

That player hitting 80k on a trial dummy with oakensoul is hitting 28k on a 3m dummy doing the same thing, without penetration.

28k/80k is the floor for a completed setup oakensorcs build. If you aren't hitting that, your build isn't finished and your parse isn't valid for balancing consideration.

And the reason that is the floor is because that is the DPS the build gets with just holding the heavy attack button down.

So, even if the average player on normal builds hit 15-20k on a 3M dummy, they are being out parsed by oaken builds by a whole lot.

And for non oaken builds, a player doing 130K DPS is likely hitting around 50k on a normal dummy. Which is right in that 2-3 times the average range.

I got 59k on the trial dummy and I get between 28-32 dps on the 3 mill. So I’m not getting 80k I actually posted my results here.

Yeah, and your build isn't complete, as has been mentioned previously.

Again, 80K, with just holding heavy attack down is the baseline of the build. It takes no skill to do so, absolutely zero parsing. Just holding 1 button the entire time while the dummy dies.

But also, let's look at comparisons here. You hit 30k average now on the 3M. Awesome. My solo 2 bar build that solos vet dungeons and does vet trials and vet arenas, does 20M on a 3M dummy.

So already, your build does 10K more DPS than a build that is capable of doing 90% of content in the game.

Your build, at worst will lost 2K. So 28K average DPS, again, still doing 8K more than a solo two bar build that is capable of doing the same content.

You will be fine. Your build isn't even complete yet, you still have like 20k more DPS to land in your lap from just heavy attacking.

That’s why I’d rather switch to healer for group stuff so I can avoid the resentment and than play how I want solo (if it will even be viable anymore ).

@isadoraisacat just remember that healing can be even more stressful than DPSing depending on the content; it's not a stand in for HA builds as you're constantly casting skills, maintaining buffs, etc. and a higher CPM is expected. I know that we frequently clash on forums topics but it's not personal so if you do start healing DM me and I can give you pointers, build advice, and good resources to use as well as guidance on which sets to farm since healers are expected to have a lot of sets ready to go. Healing is not a get out of jail free card and we are judged by metrics such as raw HPS and buff/debuff uptimes just like DPS are judged on their DPS. Since we don't have a healing trial dummy we are often expected to link our clears, our gear sets, and even logs when applying for a guild as a healer or a core team as a healer so don't be surprised if that is requested should you make the transition to healer. There are also addons that you should run as a healer and I can point you in the right direction for those as well.

Regarding if your DPS build will be viable, I assure you that it will be, it's a small adjustment as ZoS goes and you will likely not notice the performance drop when Necrom drops and if you keep up to date on new build tweaks from your favorite content creators you're likely to regain most if not all of the performance when they adjust the builds in response to these changes.

I love maintaining buffs and dots etc that’s fine. My issue is the weaving mechanic it’s painful on my hands which have injury from repetitive motion very similar to what you do with weaving. I’ll have to see how it works and if it works for me.

I don’t really like “content creators” I find most of them extremely arrogant and cocky. I usually just read here or Reddit and see what people are doing.

I definitely have heard stories of healers being bullied same with tanks. So I don’t see it as a “get out of jail card” I see it as a “no weaving card”.

I’d rather learn something new than keep changing my gear to hold on to a play style people
Resent and don’t want to have in their group.

It’s unfortunate but I’m being realistic. If they liked it they wouldn’t have begged for nerfs in the first place. And they will continue after these go through.

isadoraisacat · May 2023

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I wrote a big post above talking about the problems having the top end dps being extremely high (while nerfing the middle and low end).

From what I understand, the average dps in this game is roughly somewhere between 15-25k (before this nerf). This was hinted at with the introduction of companions, when the developers stated they did not want the companion dps to be higher than the average player’s.

So just think about what that means. The top dps, doing five to six times the average players dps.

Not twice or three times the average, but five to six times the average.

And in eso, where gear is kind of accessible, it means a lot of this difference falls upon the combat system itself.

Does that sound healthy for any game? If I was developing content for this game, I would not know where to begin.
How do I balance something “difficult”, twice the average dps? But the high end will destroy it.
80% of high end dps? Still too easy for them but how many people are going to see it anyway.

You have to create an accessible vet level, then a full throttle hard mode? Do we need to add layers in between now? That’s crazy.

I mean you don’t even need that because the majority of us playing these builds aren’t even doing the hard end game content.

The hardest for us is DLC dungeons on normal or vet non dlc. But after this nerf forget dlc dungeons I won’t be able to do those anymore at least not as a dps. So it’s just forcing me into changing my build up or making a new character and go as a healer.

If you aren't doing vet trials, and even if you are, the nerf won't stop you from being able to do them. Again, this is one of the smallest nerfs ZOS has ever put out (the nerf to empower) and changing gear sets is standard practice for every single player who does end game content (regarding the nerf to storm master). If you do anything less demanding than that content, it comes down to your mentality holding you back, not this nerf, dungeons depend a lot more on paying attention to things, and while high dps is needed from time to time, ultimates exist for a reason. Nothing is forcing you to play a healer, and if you want to participate in the highest tier of content, changing your build from patch to patch is the norm that everyone else deals with every patch, but for everything under that top tier of content, the damage loss won't kill you, this doom and gloom will.

There is no “doom and gloom” and I don’t want to be in the “highest tier” in already a very low dps player. I was hitting 15-18 k dps before using ha builds. Sucking wind. I have hand issues.

This build allows me to hit 30k and get though dlc dungeons I wasn’t able to before. The loss of dps has a major affect on the low end. Yes if your dps is 100k of course a small loss won’t matter. But when your dps is 27-30 k max of course any loss is going to set you back especially when you spent so much time upgrading gear for it a month later to be nerfed.

And once again there is no “doom and gloom” it’s being realistic. I can’t dps a normal build due to hand issues it’s not possible. This build is not something people want it’s clear the direction the combat is going and soon I will not be viable anymore with this build and people resent it. Why would I want to continue to play with others so resent how I play?

I’d rather switch roles and play the way I want (heavy attack ) solo … but with the dps loss it may not even be worth it solo.

I’ll definitely come back with results after it goes live I’ll make some records to show the loss. From tests I’ve seen it’s a massive hit to the low end.

Being realistic: If 100% of your damage comes form heavy attacks, and Empower is your only percentage buff to heavy attack damage, you are looking at a just under a 6% damage nerf. If you are wearing Oakensoul, using the weapons expert champion point node, those things dilute that nerf quite heavily, and if you use any abilities, like sorc pets or ground aoe's, and if you have enchantments doing damage on top of that, that 6% becomes even smaller. So, fact of the matter is, the empower nerf is barely on the table, if that nerf breaks your ability to do content, you have plenty of room to grow beyond what you were doing before.

Now Storm Master did get nerfed as well, but there are so many sets in the game to pick as alternatives, many from base zones, or are craftable, or are otherwise available from dungeons which means that, with the sticker book, you'll eventually get any piece you need no matter what. So let's spin the wheel over the hundreds of sets in ESO to find some alternatives that can work in most pieces of content aside from endgame trials.

You can use sets like Redmountain or Unfathomable Darkness, sets that drop form overland and just 'deal damage when you deal damage,' if you wanted to craft something you could use something like Torug's Pact, Oblivion's Foe, Red Eagle's Fury, New Moon Acolyte, Morkuldin, Coldharbour's Favorite, for just some sets that easily do damage or buff your damage output. Note that Red Eagle and New Moon Acolyte add bonus damage stats at the cost of making your skills cost more, but remember, heavy attack builds don't have sustain issues, you're heavy attacking all the time so the increased skill cost are nothing for those builds to deal with. Because, if you are at the 'low end,' you don't have as big of a need for raw damage, and there are so many more options open to you because of that, and if you are trying to push into higher end content, it is common for everyone there to have to swap gear between patches, and changing one base game dungeon set for another is very minor compared to what is normally required.

I’m wearing weapons expert I think it’s called
Which adds additional power to heavy attacks.
Sure I can swap gear but it will just get complained about once I switch and also nerfed. I’d rather just change roles and avoid all this non-sense all together at this point.

If you're on the PC, there are many ways to swap gear around quickly.

How do you do that other than armory crate ?

Edit : lol amory crate(no idea why I said crate at the end ) is a thing for asus I think it’s called armor station or armory? I know it lets you change between 2 set up’s or more (if you pay money ).

There are add-ons with names like AlphaGear or Dressing Room.

Also, there are 2 ways to use the armory system -- the armory station that you hopefully got for free, or armory assistants that cost crowns.

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I wrote a big post above talking about the problems having the top end dps being extremely high (while nerfing the middle and low end).

From what I understand, the average dps in this game is roughly somewhere between 15-25k (before this nerf). This was hinted at with the introduction of companions, when the developers stated they did not want the companion dps to be higher than the average player’s.

So just think about what that means. The top dps, doing five to six times the average players dps.

Not twice or three times the average, but five to six times the average.

And in eso, where gear is kind of accessible, it means a lot of this difference falls upon the combat system itself.

Does that sound healthy for any game? If I was developing content for this game, I would not know where to begin.
How do I balance something “difficult”, twice the average dps? But the high end will destroy it.
80% of high end dps? Still too easy for them but how many people are going to see it anyway.

You have to create an accessible vet level, then a full throttle hard mode? Do we need to add layers in between now? That’s crazy.

I mean you don’t even need that because the majority of us playing these builds aren’t even doing the hard end game content.

The hardest for us is DLC dungeons on normal or vet non dlc. But after this nerf forget dlc dungeons I won’t be able to do those anymore at least not as a dps. So it’s just forcing me into changing my build up or making a new character and go as a healer.

If you aren't doing vet trials, and even if you are, the nerf won't stop you from being able to do them. Again, this is one of the smallest nerfs ZOS has ever put out (the nerf to empower) and changing gear sets is standard practice for every single player who does end game content (regarding the nerf to storm master). If you do anything less demanding than that content, it comes down to your mentality holding you back, not this nerf, dungeons depend a lot more on paying attention to things, and while high dps is needed from time to time, ultimates exist for a reason. Nothing is forcing you to play a healer, and if you want to participate in the highest tier of content, changing your build from patch to patch is the norm that everyone else deals with every patch, but for everything under that top tier of content, the damage loss won't kill you, this doom and gloom will.

There is no “doom and gloom” and I don’t want to be in the “highest tier” in already a very low dps player. I was hitting 15-18 k dps before using ha builds. Sucking wind. I have hand issues.

This build allows me to hit 30k and get though dlc dungeons I wasn’t able to before. The loss of dps has a major affect on the low end. Yes if your dps is 100k of course a small loss won’t matter. But when your dps is 27-30 k max of course any loss is going to set you back especially when you spent so much time upgrading gear for it a month later to be nerfed.

And once again there is no “doom and gloom” it’s being realistic. I can’t dps a normal build due to hand issues it’s not possible. This build is not something people want it’s clear the direction the combat is going and soon I will not be viable anymore with this build and people resent it. Why would I want to continue to play with others so resent how I play?

I’d rather switch roles and play the way I want (heavy attack ) solo … but with the dps loss it may not even be worth it solo.

I’ll definitely come back with results after it goes live I’ll make some records to show the loss. From tests I’ve seen it’s a massive hit to the low end.

Being realistic: If 100% of your damage comes form heavy attacks, and Empower is your only percentage buff to heavy attack damage, you are looking at a just under a 6% damage nerf. If you are wearing Oakensoul, using the weapons expert champion point node, those things dilute that nerf quite heavily, and if you use any abilities, like sorc pets or ground aoe's, and if you have enchantments doing damage on top of that, that 6% becomes even smaller. So, fact of the matter is, the empower nerf is barely on the table, if that nerf breaks your ability to do content, you have plenty of room to grow beyond what you were doing before.

Now Storm Master did get nerfed as well, but there are so many sets in the game to pick as alternatives, many from base zones, or are craftable, or are otherwise available from dungeons which means that, with the sticker book, you'll eventually get any piece you need no matter what. So let's spin the wheel over the hundreds of sets in ESO to find some alternatives that can work in most pieces of content aside from endgame trials.

You can use sets like Redmountain or Unfathomable Darkness, sets that drop form overland and just 'deal damage when you deal damage,' if you wanted to craft something you could use something like Torug's Pact, Oblivion's Foe, Red Eagle's Fury, New Moon Acolyte, Morkuldin, Coldharbour's Favorite, for just some sets that easily do damage or buff your damage output. Note that Red Eagle and New Moon Acolyte add bonus damage stats at the cost of making your skills cost more, but remember, heavy attack builds don't have sustain issues, you're heavy attacking all the time so the increased skill cost are nothing for those builds to deal with. Because, if you are at the 'low end,' you don't have as big of a need for raw damage, and there are so many more options open to you because of that, and if you are trying to push into higher end content, it is common for everyone there to have to swap gear between patches, and changing one base game dungeon set for another is very minor compared to what is normally required.

I’m wearing weapons expert I think it’s called
Which adds additional power to heavy attacks.
Sure I can swap gear but it will just get complained about once I switch and also nerfed. I’d rather just change roles and avoid all this non-sense all together at this point.

If you're on the PC, there are many ways to swap gear around quickly.

How do you do that other than armory crate ?

Edit : lol amory crate(no idea why I said crate at the end ) is a thing for asus I think it’s called armor station or armory? I know it lets you change between 2 set up’s or more (if you pay money ).

There are add-ons with names like AlphaGear or Dressing Room.

Also, there are 2 ways to use the armory system -- the armory station that you hopefully got for free, or armory assistants that cost crowns.

Ah ok yeah I got the armory station for free.
I didn’t know there was an assistant I’ll have to look into that … do you know how expensive that one is ?

As for the add ons how does that work? I just recently as of the last 4 days started messing with ad ons i found some really nice ones that make some quality of life changes.

The price of something in crowns can be found in the crown store.

For add-ons, check out:
The website https://www.esoui.com/addons.php to learn about add-on choices.

The website https://minion.mmoui.com/ to get the tool -- "Minion" -- most people use to manage add-ons.

One tip: Once you have downloaded add-ons you like, go to controls/keybindings to make it easier to launch the ones that indeed need active launching. I use my number keys 7-0 to launch Combat Metrics, AlphaGear (but Dressing Room seems to be updated more recently), WPamA (which does a lot of useful things if you have a bunch of alts), and the cross-character inventory checker I use.

Right I’m just asking how the add ons work. And if you happened to know the price of the assistant off hand (I assume you don’t as per your response ).

I’m just asking how the dressing room works and what exactly makes it different from the Armor station.. not how to install them.

The dressing room class of add-ons lets you change gear whenever you want, as long as the new gear is in your inventory or you are talking to a banker (in a bank or in the form a banking assistant as the case may be). You can also change your active skills (but not the morphs). And you can do this anywhere you are -- dungeons, Cyrodiil, whatever. (Of course, you can't change any skills or gear during combat.)

So: Less powerful than the armory, but more portable. And you can have a vast number of different builds saved, if you choose.

As for how to install them -- Minion handles the downloading and updating of add-ons.

I already stated prior I started using ad ons so no need to explain how to install them I got that covered already.

I'm sorry for wasting your time with an explanation. I'll try not to do it again.

It’s not about “wasting time” but I already said in a prior comment above two times I started using add ons and in another that I knew how to install and wasn’t asking that question. It’s like you did not read what I wrote. That’s all.

isadoraisacat · May 2023

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

I had a random thought about this topic the other day.

During the U35 update, many people were demonizing high DPS builds, saying the ceiling needed to be lowered, weaving needed to be removed, etc, etc, because damage was out of control, "unfair," the root of all the game's problems, etc.

I bet that some of those folks are now using the HA build that pumps out numbers, and is now being nerfed, and they don't like it.

That's some irony right there.

What if... EVERYONE stopped spreading negativity about people who can push out good damage, regardless of how they do it??!? Maybe we wouldn't see so many nerf bats if the community could just look at the high damage numbers and say "nice job."

The truth of the matter is, clears require a certain level of group DPS. The more people that can pull a fair amount over 100k, the more room there is for a few people that can't.

But this all started by people whining that it was unfair how much damage people who practiced their light attacks and knew the game really well could do. Has anyone learned their lesson?

To be clear, I am not in favor of the HA build nerf. But I also thought it was ridiculous that people thought the "ceiling" should be lowered by reducing damage from LA builds. The worst thing for accessibility is reducing the amount of damage people can do without adjusting the content. If you take away the drama about HA builds specifically, this is just ZOS doing this exact thing, again.

I've made many of the same points about those who cheered the nerfs to the end game in U35 suddenly not liking it when its applied to them once they're in the end game in another thread. The irony is that Oaknsorc/HA hasn't just become an alternative for players new to the end game to acclimate it's become the META in many scenarios of the end game even outside of vAS and we all know what happens to metas when ZoS notices...adjustments. I ran a PUG vRG on Friday and 100% of the DPS were HA Sorcs (I am an Oakensorc here testing someone's claim about being kicked from normal and veteran dungeons and trials - spoiler I've not been kicked once nor had even one negative interaction). The content seemed trivial compared to a normal comp run and I even got a new high score for vRG. It's apparent why ZoS is adjusting this type of build after running it for a week in group content.

edited for spelling

I’ll have to upload some game footage. I recorded a few games just gotta get them hosted. Playing with my heavy attack build. I played with a lot of different builds who weren’t HA. And that was me who said I was booted from the vet Dungeon with my heavy attack build and was called “terrible” and “awful” it actually happened to me, with this build clearly my dps sucks it’s max 30k and testing in cmx I actually hit maybe 14k towards a boss in a real game. This build only can perform as good as the player. Skilled players can do good with it but they still put perform these builds with 2 bar.

All this is doing is taking from the low end.

You can take 10 % from a millionaire and it’s nothing to them. You take 10 % from a man below the poverty line and they are beyond sucking wind.

That is not balance to me.

I didn't say it was you, it was the other guy making loads of new threads on the topic stating he was getting kicked for merely using the build in group content. That being said I also haven't had a single negative interaction running this build as you said you did and I'm running all sorts of groups from pre-made guild groups to outright random PUGs in both normal and veteran dungeons and trials which leads me to believe any negative interactions had were "one offs" or based on other factors outside of the build. I've been testing for a week straight too so I didn't queue for a only single dungeon and say I'm done. The fact that this was vRG is also notable as vAS is the meta trial for HA builds.

I'm a trial healer main and have never parsed once as a DPS before doing this HA build so I'm really in the same place as you and am not certainly one of those über 1337 DPS types and see there's a problem with performance vs effort that the devs called out in their patch notes. I don't want these builds removed from end game but they need to be balanced against other areas of the end game for it to remain healthy.

Ah ok. I had a group situation I explained and a few people basically accused me of lying for some bizarre reason.

Except I wasn’t. I joined wayrest sewers on a vet a duengon I can do in my sleep with my eyes closed even in a normal build. And some guy who wasn’t performing very well called me “terrible” and “awful”.

This was after they tried to vote out the healer and made fun of him and I refused.

Clearly some people resent these builds it is what it is.

Hence why I’d rather change my role for group stuff
And try to learn a new way to play than be forced to fight against changes they people keep begging for and fighting to keep something no one wants.

I’ll continue to use ha for my solo questing but i know it’s not welcomed out side that so I’m not going to bother anymore.

tmbrinks · May 2023

You absolutely must weave as a healer, otherwise you will not be able to proc your healing staff enchantment reliably... which reduces your effectiveness, whereas with destruction staves it can be procced by your wall of elements, there is no restoration staff tree skill that does the same. (ZoS should really have combat prayer do like 1 damage per second as a dot... so it can be used that way)

isadoraisacat · May 2023

tmbrinks wrote: »

You absolutely must weave as a healer, otherwise you will not be able to proc your healing staff enchantment reliably... which reduces your effectiveness, whereas with destruction staves it can be procced by your wall of elements, there is no restoration staff tree skill that does the same. (ZoS should really have combat prayer do like 1 damage per second as a dot... so it can be used that way)

I’ll have to again try the play style and decide if it’s more doable for me or not. If that doesn’t work than i turn off the chat and go back to being a lone wolf and use this as tes 5.5 pop in for each chapters main story and dip until the next it’s that simple.

But I’m no longer going to play a play style with others people resent / don’t want / beg for it to vanish.

Agenericname · May 2023

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

I had a random thought about this topic the other day.

During the U35 update, many people were demonizing high DPS builds, saying the ceiling needed to be lowered, weaving needed to be removed, etc, etc, because damage was out of control, "unfair," the root of all the game's problems, etc.

I bet that some of those folks are now using the HA build that pumps out numbers, and is now being nerfed, and they don't like it.

That's some irony right there.

What if... EVERYONE stopped spreading negativity about people who can push out good damage, regardless of how they do it??!? Maybe we wouldn't see so many nerf bats if the community could just look at the high damage numbers and say "nice job."

The truth of the matter is, clears require a certain level of group DPS. The more people that can pull a fair amount over 100k, the more room there is for a few people that can't.

But this all started by people whining that it was unfair how much damage people who practiced their light attacks and knew the game really well could do. Has anyone learned their lesson?

To be clear, I am not in favor of the HA build nerf. But I also thought it was ridiculous that people thought the "ceiling" should be lowered by reducing damage from LA builds. The worst thing for accessibility is reducing the amount of damage people can do without adjusting the content. If you take away the drama about HA builds specifically, this is just ZOS doing this exact thing, again.

I've made many of the same points about those who cheered the nerfs to the end game in U35 suddenly not liking it when its applied to them once they're in the end game in another thread. The irony is that Oaknsorc/HA hasn't just become an alternative for players new to the end game to acclimate it's become the META in many scenarios of the end game even outside of vAS and we all know what happens to metas when ZoS notices...adjustments. I ran a PUG vRG on Friday and 100% of the DPS were HA Sorcs (I am an Oakensorc here testing someone's claim about being kicked from normal and veteran dungeons and trials - spoiler I've not been kicked once nor had even one negative interaction). The content seemed trivial compared to a normal comp run and I even got a new high score for vRG. It's apparent why ZoS is adjusting this type of build after running it for a week in group content.

edited for spelling

I’ll have to upload some game footage. I recorded a few games just gotta get them hosted. Playing with my heavy attack build. I played with a lot of different builds who weren’t HA. And that was me who said I was booted from the vet Dungeon with my heavy attack build and was called “terrible” and “awful” it actually happened to me, with this build clearly my dps sucks it’s max 30k and testing in cmx I actually hit maybe 14k towards a boss in a real game. This build only can perform as good as the player. Skilled players can do good with it but they still put perform these builds with 2 bar.

All this is doing is taking from the low end.

You can take 10 % from a millionaire and it’s nothing to them. You take 10 % from a man below the poverty line and they are beyond sucking wind.

That is not balance to me.

I didn't say it was you, it was the other guy making loads of new threads on the topic stating he was getting kicked for merely using the build in group content. That being said I also haven't had a single negative interaction running this build as you said you did and I'm running all sorts of groups from pre-made guild groups to outright random PUGs in both normal and veteran dungeons and trials which leads me to believe any negative interactions had were "one offs" or based on other factors outside of the build. I've been testing for a week straight too so I didn't queue for a only single dungeon and say I'm done. The fact that this was vRG is also notable as vAS is the meta trial for HA builds.

I'm a trial healer main and have never parsed once as a DPS before doing this HA build so I'm really in the same place as you and am not certainly one of those über 1337 DPS types and see there's a problem with performance vs effort that the devs called out in their patch notes. I don't want these builds removed from end game but they need to be balanced against other areas of the end game for it to remain healthy.

Ah ok. I had a group situation I explained and a few people basically accused me of lying for some bizarre reason.

Except I wasn’t. I joined wayrest sewers on a vet a duengon I can do in my sleep with my eyes closed even in a normal build. And some guy who wasn’t performing very well called me “terrible” and “awful”.

This was after they tried to vote out the healer and made fun of him and I refused.

Clearly some people resent these builds it is what it is.

Hence why I’d rather change my role for group stuff
And try to learn a new way to play than be forced to fight against changes they people keep begging for and fighting to keep something no one wants.

I’ll continue to use ha for my solo questing but i know it’s not welcomed out side that so I’m not going to bother anymore.

Youre free to do as you wish, but healers have their own struggles in dungeons. For a long time many groups didnt want them. They would rather have a 3rd DPS. Even now theyre not always viewed as a necessity.

The healers that I know who are doing the harder dungeon content are expected to perform well. Most have high CPM.

If you want to have a better dungeon experience, find a group you like playing or a guild, and play with them. People will be, well people, regardless of your ability to perform. If youre expecting random people that you meet in a PUG groups to be friendly 100% of the time, thats an expectation issue on your end. Im not excusing the behavior, at all, but its going to happen. Its going to happen regardless of your role and your build.

I had a similar experience as a tank once because I asked the healer to let me pull in vSCP. I run that with a group that has Mountain God several times over. Outside of a hardware/connection issue or the dungeon bugging out, there's 0 chance we arent going to clear the HM and it still happens. They obviously didnt kick me because they were the 4th in a premamde, but I got enough whispers that I blocked them. Sometimes people suck. Move on.

Lastly, Oakensoul builds will still be able to clear all of the 4 person content that were able to previously, which is to say, all of it. They have no ceiling in dungeons as far as the content is concerned and they wont after the patch either.

isadoraisacat · May 2023

Agenericname wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

I had a random thought about this topic the other day.

During the U35 update, many people were demonizing high DPS builds, saying the ceiling needed to be lowered, weaving needed to be removed, etc, etc, because damage was out of control, "unfair," the root of all the game's problems, etc.

I bet that some of those folks are now using the HA build that pumps out numbers, and is now being nerfed, and they don't like it.

That's some irony right there.

What if... EVERYONE stopped spreading negativity about people who can push out good damage, regardless of how they do it??!? Maybe we wouldn't see so many nerf bats if the community could just look at the high damage numbers and say "nice job."

The truth of the matter is, clears require a certain level of group DPS. The more people that can pull a fair amount over 100k, the more room there is for a few people that can't.

But this all started by people whining that it was unfair how much damage people who practiced their light attacks and knew the game really well could do. Has anyone learned their lesson?

To be clear, I am not in favor of the HA build nerf. But I also thought it was ridiculous that people thought the "ceiling" should be lowered by reducing damage from LA builds. The worst thing for accessibility is reducing the amount of damage people can do without adjusting the content. If you take away the drama about HA builds specifically, this is just ZOS doing this exact thing, again.

I've made many of the same points about those who cheered the nerfs to the end game in U35 suddenly not liking it when its applied to them once they're in the end game in another thread. The irony is that Oaknsorc/HA hasn't just become an alternative for players new to the end game to acclimate it's become the META in many scenarios of the end game even outside of vAS and we all know what happens to metas when ZoS notices...adjustments. I ran a PUG vRG on Friday and 100% of the DPS were HA Sorcs (I am an Oakensorc here testing someone's claim about being kicked from normal and veteran dungeons and trials - spoiler I've not been kicked once nor had even one negative interaction). The content seemed trivial compared to a normal comp run and I even got a new high score for vRG. It's apparent why ZoS is adjusting this type of build after running it for a week in group content.

edited for spelling

I’ll have to upload some game footage. I recorded a few games just gotta get them hosted. Playing with my heavy attack build. I played with a lot of different builds who weren’t HA. And that was me who said I was booted from the vet Dungeon with my heavy attack build and was called “terrible” and “awful” it actually happened to me, with this build clearly my dps sucks it’s max 30k and testing in cmx I actually hit maybe 14k towards a boss in a real game. This build only can perform as good as the player. Skilled players can do good with it but they still put perform these builds with 2 bar.

All this is doing is taking from the low end.

You can take 10 % from a millionaire and it’s nothing to them. You take 10 % from a man below the poverty line and they are beyond sucking wind.

That is not balance to me.

I didn't say it was you, it was the other guy making loads of new threads on the topic stating he was getting kicked for merely using the build in group content. That being said I also haven't had a single negative interaction running this build as you said you did and I'm running all sorts of groups from pre-made guild groups to outright random PUGs in both normal and veteran dungeons and trials which leads me to believe any negative interactions had were "one offs" or based on other factors outside of the build. I've been testing for a week straight too so I didn't queue for a only single dungeon and say I'm done. The fact that this was vRG is also notable as vAS is the meta trial for HA builds.

I'm a trial healer main and have never parsed once as a DPS before doing this HA build so I'm really in the same place as you and am not certainly one of those über 1337 DPS types and see there's a problem with performance vs effort that the devs called out in their patch notes. I don't want these builds removed from end game but they need to be balanced against other areas of the end game for it to remain healthy.

Ah ok. I had a group situation I explained and a few people basically accused me of lying for some bizarre reason.

Except I wasn’t. I joined wayrest sewers on a vet a duengon I can do in my sleep with my eyes closed even in a normal build. And some guy who wasn’t performing very well called me “terrible” and “awful”.

This was after they tried to vote out the healer and made fun of him and I refused.

Clearly some people resent these builds it is what it is.

Hence why I’d rather change my role for group stuff
And try to learn a new way to play than be forced to fight against changes they people keep begging for and fighting to keep something no one wants.

I’ll continue to use ha for my solo questing but i know it’s not welcomed out side that so I’m not going to bother anymore.

Youre free to do as you wish, but healers have their own struggles in dungeons. For a long time many groups didnt want them. They would rather have a 3rd DPS. Even now theyre not always viewed as a necessity.

The healers that I know who are doing the harder dungeon content are expected to perform well. Most have high CPM.

If you want to have a better dungeon experience, find a group you like playing or a guild, and play with them. People will be, well people, regardless of your ability to perform. If youre expecting random people that you meet in a PUG groups to be friendly 100% of the time, thats an expectation issue on your end. Im not excusing the behavior, at all, but its going to happen. Its going to happen regardless of your role and your build.

I had a similar experience as a tank once because I asked the healer to let me pull in vSCP. I run that with a group that has Mountain God several times over. Outside of a hardware/connection issue or the dungeon bugging out, there's 0 chance we arent going to clear the HM and it still happens. They obviously didnt kick me because they were the 4th in a premamde, but I got enough whispers that I blocked them. Sometimes people suck. Move on.

Lastly, Oakensoul builds will still be able to clear all of the 4 person content that were able to previously, which is to say, all of it. They have no ceiling in dungeons as far as the content is concerned and they wont after the patch either.

Yeah you and others keep saying the last part over and over. That is not the point.

The majority resent the play style.
It’s like wearing a political based t shirt or offensive t shirt to a tea party. You know the majority doesn’t like what’s on the shirt but you wear it anyway and make everyone resentful / uncomfortable or angry.

That’s not a nice position to be in so instead you just wear a different shirt.

I’ll have to try the role out and see if I don’t like it I’ll just go back to playing solo.

I’ve seen In the chat many times things like;

People don’t want HA builds. Either I go back to solo or try another role. But it’s clear the divide between play styles and id rather not have an uphill battle I have enough of that in real life.

Ragnarok0130 · May 2023

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I wrote a big post above talking about the problems having the top end dps being extremely high (while nerfing the middle and low end).

From what I understand, the average dps in this game is roughly somewhere between 15-25k (before this nerf). This was hinted at with the introduction of companions, when the developers stated they did not want the companion dps to be higher than the average player’s.

So just think about what that means. The top dps, doing five to six times the average players dps.

Not twice or three times the average, but five to six times the average.

And in eso, where gear is kind of accessible, it means a lot of this difference falls upon the combat system itself.

Does that sound healthy for any game? If I was developing content for this game, I would not know where to begin.
How do I balance something “difficult”, twice the average dps? But the high end will destroy it.
80% of high end dps? Still too easy for them but how many people are going to see it anyway.

You have to create an accessible vet level, then a full throttle hard mode? Do we need to add layers in between now? That’s crazy.

But that 15-20k is 100% not on a trial dummy. End game parses are using the trial dummy. People keep throwing out these sub 30k heavy attack parses that are clearly not on a trial dummy, and then trying to compare themselves to players hitting 80K on a trial dummy.

That player hitting 80k on a trial dummy with oakensoul is hitting 28k on a 3m dummy doing the same thing, without penetration.

28k/80k is the floor for a completed setup oakensorcs build. If you aren't hitting that, your build isn't finished and your parse isn't valid for balancing consideration.

And the reason that is the floor is because that is the DPS the build gets with just holding the heavy attack button down.

So, even if the average player on normal builds hit 15-20k on a 3M dummy, they are being out parsed by oaken builds by a whole lot.

And for non oaken builds, a player doing 130K DPS is likely hitting around 50k on a normal dummy. Which is right in that 2-3 times the average range.

I got 59k on the trial dummy and I get between 28-32 dps on the 3 mill. So I’m not getting 80k I actually posted my results here.

Yeah, and your build isn't complete, as has been mentioned previously.

Again, 80K, with just holding heavy attack down is the baseline of the build. It takes no skill to do so, absolutely zero parsing. Just holding 1 button the entire time while the dummy dies.

But also, let's look at comparisons here. You hit 30k average now on the 3M. Awesome. My solo 2 bar build that solos vet dungeons and does vet trials and vet arenas, does 20M on a 3M dummy.

So already, your build does 10K more DPS than a build that is capable of doing 90% of content in the game.

Your build, at worst will lost 2K. So 28K average DPS, again, still doing 8K more than a solo two bar build that is capable of doing the same content.

You will be fine. Your build isn't even complete yet, you still have like 20k more DPS to land in your lap from just heavy attacking.

That’s why I’d rather switch to healer for group stuff so I can avoid the resentment and than play how I want solo (if it will even be viable anymore ).

@isadoraisacat just remember that healing can be even more stressful than DPSing depending on the content; it's not a stand in for HA builds as you're constantly casting skills, maintaining buffs, etc. and a higher CPM is expected. I know that we frequently clash on forums topics but it's not personal so if you do start healing DM me and I can give you pointers, build advice, and good resources to use as well as guidance on which sets to farm since healers are expected to have a lot of sets ready to go. Healing is not a get out of jail free card and we are judged by metrics such as raw HPS and buff/debuff uptimes just like DPS are judged on their DPS. Since we don't have a healing trial dummy we are often expected to link our clears, our gear sets, and even logs when applying for a guild as a healer or a core team as a healer so don't be surprised if that is requested should you make the transition to healer. There are also addons that you should run as a healer and I can point you in the right direction for those as well.

Regarding if your DPS build will be viable, I assure you that it will be, it's a small adjustment as ZoS goes and you will likely not notice the performance drop when Necrom drops and if you keep up to date on new build tweaks from your favorite content creators you're likely to regain most if not all of the performance when they adjust the builds in response to these changes.

I love maintaining buffs and dots etc that’s fine. My issue is the weaving mechanic it’s painful on my hands which have injury from repetitive motion very similar to what you do with weaving. I’ll have to see how it works and if it works for me.

I don’t really like “content creators” I find most of them extremely arrogant and cocky. I usually just read here or Reddit and see what people are doing.

I definitely have heard stories of healers being bullied same with tanks. So I don’t see it as a “get out of jail card” I see it as a “no weaving card”.

I’d rather learn something new than keep changing my gear to hold on to a play style people
Resent and don’t want to have in their group.

It’s unfortunate but I’m being realistic. If they liked it they wouldn’t have begged for nerfs in the first place. And they will continue after these go through.

Regardless of your like or dislike of content creators they know the game even better than the devs so they are your best bet at regaining any lost power due to their in depth knowledge and theory crafting. Odds are any builds you saw on reddit or here came from a content creator or someone who runs in the same circles in the end game.

You'll need to also adapt to nerfs and buffs as a healer and dialing in builds are just as important for healers as for DPS. After U35 we refined our builds such as changing the morph of grand healing from illustrious healing to healing springs, and swapping out radiating regeneration for echoing vigor to make up for the substantial U35 healing nerfs. With the last patch I changed morphs of backlash from POTL to Purifying light on my templar due to the changes to ice staves. Meta sets also change for healers although I think we have far more stability than the DPS players do in this department - but we are expected to have far more sets ready to go for trials.

Weaving is something that a really good healer also does for things like ulti-gen but it's not as mandatory as it is for DPS. You are right about healers and tanks occasionally being the target of ire, there's a joke that my raid groups like to repeat called "blame the healer" when a DPS stands in stupid and dies. I personally find "blame the healer/tank" is something you are less likely to see in established end game communities and groups and more something that one finds in PUGs with people of unknown skill level. One thing I found while DPSing this week is that it seems far less stressful than healing and it reinforced my chosen role as healer as I find healing more engaging, although that could be due to me using a HA build instead of a 2 bar build with complex rotation.

isadoraisacat · May 2023

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I wrote a big post above talking about the problems having the top end dps being extremely high (while nerfing the middle and low end).

From what I understand, the average dps in this game is roughly somewhere between 15-25k (before this nerf). This was hinted at with the introduction of companions, when the developers stated they did not want the companion dps to be higher than the average player’s.

So just think about what that means. The top dps, doing five to six times the average players dps.

Not twice or three times the average, but five to six times the average.

And in eso, where gear is kind of accessible, it means a lot of this difference falls upon the combat system itself.

Does that sound healthy for any game? If I was developing content for this game, I would not know where to begin.
How do I balance something “difficult”, twice the average dps? But the high end will destroy it.
80% of high end dps? Still too easy for them but how many people are going to see it anyway.

You have to create an accessible vet level, then a full throttle hard mode? Do we need to add layers in between now? That’s crazy.

But that 15-20k is 100% not on a trial dummy. End game parses are using the trial dummy. People keep throwing out these sub 30k heavy attack parses that are clearly not on a trial dummy, and then trying to compare themselves to players hitting 80K on a trial dummy.

That player hitting 80k on a trial dummy with oakensoul is hitting 28k on a 3m dummy doing the same thing, without penetration.

28k/80k is the floor for a completed setup oakensorcs build. If you aren't hitting that, your build isn't finished and your parse isn't valid for balancing consideration.

And the reason that is the floor is because that is the DPS the build gets with just holding the heavy attack button down.

So, even if the average player on normal builds hit 15-20k on a 3M dummy, they are being out parsed by oaken builds by a whole lot.

And for non oaken builds, a player doing 130K DPS is likely hitting around 50k on a normal dummy. Which is right in that 2-3 times the average range.

I got 59k on the trial dummy and I get between 28-32 dps on the 3 mill. So I’m not getting 80k I actually posted my results here.

Yeah, and your build isn't complete, as has been mentioned previously.

Again, 80K, with just holding heavy attack down is the baseline of the build. It takes no skill to do so, absolutely zero parsing. Just holding 1 button the entire time while the dummy dies.

But also, let's look at comparisons here. You hit 30k average now on the 3M. Awesome. My solo 2 bar build that solos vet dungeons and does vet trials and vet arenas, does 20M on a 3M dummy.

So already, your build does 10K more DPS than a build that is capable of doing 90% of content in the game.

Your build, at worst will lost 2K. So 28K average DPS, again, still doing 8K more than a solo two bar build that is capable of doing the same content.

You will be fine. Your build isn't even complete yet, you still have like 20k more DPS to land in your lap from just heavy attacking.

That’s why I’d rather switch to healer for group stuff so I can avoid the resentment and than play how I want solo (if it will even be viable anymore ).

@isadoraisacat just remember that healing can be even more stressful than DPSing depending on the content; it's not a stand in for HA builds as you're constantly casting skills, maintaining buffs, etc. and a higher CPM is expected. I know that we frequently clash on forums topics but it's not personal so if you do start healing DM me and I can give you pointers, build advice, and good resources to use as well as guidance on which sets to farm since healers are expected to have a lot of sets ready to go. Healing is not a get out of jail free card and we are judged by metrics such as raw HPS and buff/debuff uptimes just like DPS are judged on their DPS. Since we don't have a healing trial dummy we are often expected to link our clears, our gear sets, and even logs when applying for a guild as a healer or a core team as a healer so don't be surprised if that is requested should you make the transition to healer. There are also addons that you should run as a healer and I can point you in the right direction for those as well.

Regarding if your DPS build will be viable, I assure you that it will be, it's a small adjustment as ZoS goes and you will likely not notice the performance drop when Necrom drops and if you keep up to date on new build tweaks from your favorite content creators you're likely to regain most if not all of the performance when they adjust the builds in response to these changes.

I love maintaining buffs and dots etc that’s fine. My issue is the weaving mechanic it’s painful on my hands which have injury from repetitive motion very similar to what you do with weaving. I’ll have to see how it works and if it works for me.

I don’t really like “content creators” I find most of them extremely arrogant and cocky. I usually just read here or Reddit and see what people are doing.

I definitely have heard stories of healers being bullied same with tanks. So I don’t see it as a “get out of jail card” I see it as a “no weaving card”.

I’d rather learn something new than keep changing my gear to hold on to a play style people
Resent and don’t want to have in their group.

It’s unfortunate but I’m being realistic. If they liked it they wouldn’t have begged for nerfs in the first place. And they will continue after these go through.

Regardless of your like or dislike of content creators they know the game even better than the devs so they are your best bet at regaining any lost power due to their in depth knowledge and theory crafting. Odds are any builds you saw on reddit or here came from a content creator or someone who runs in the same circles in the end game.

You'll need to also adapt to nerfs and buffs as a healer and dialing in builds are just as important for healers as for DPS. After U35 we refined our builds such as changing the morph of grand healing from illustrious healing to healing springs, and swapping out radiating regeneration for echoing vigor to make up for the substantial U35 healing nerfs. With the last patch I changed morphs of backlash from POTL to Purifying light on my templar due to the changes to ice staves. Meta sets also change for healers although I think we have far more stability than the DPS players do in this department - but we are expected to have far more sets ready to go for trials.

Weaving is something that a really good healer also does for things like ulti-gen but it's not as mandatory as it is for DPS. You are right about healers and tanks occasionally being the target of ire, there's a joke that my raid groups like to repeat called "blame the healer" when a DPS stands in stupid and dies. I personally find "blame the healer/tank" is something you are less likely to see in established end game communities and groups and more something that one finds in PUGs with people of unknown skill level. One thing I found while DPSing this week is that it seems far less stressful than healing and it reinforced my chosen role as healer as I find healing more engaging, although that could be due to me using a HA build instead of a 2 bar build with complex rotation.

Right well I just don’t enjoy watching these “creators” I don’t like most of their personalities. This goes for the “influencer” worship these days with the younger crowd.

I don’t really care where the info comes from I’d rather learn from a player or from a thread than listen to some guy on YouTube brag for 20 minutes.

I can weave (I don’t like it and I think it’s a silly mechanic) but I would tolerate something that doesn’t rely on click click click click every 2 seconds. I’ll have to try out being a healer and decide. If I don’t like it once again I can go back to just being a solo player and use the game as tes 5.5 until the release of tes 6. It’s not a problem.

But it’s not really about “adapting” to nerfs and Buffs. It’s about knowing when to walk away when you aren’t wanted rather than beating a dead horse.

The option to play solo and ignore the group content will always exist for me. Just sucks story content is locked behind dlc group dungeons.. which was the main reason why I wanted to get more into the multiplayer aspect of the game.

Ragnarok0130 · May 2023

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I wrote a big post above talking about the problems having the top end dps being extremely high (while nerfing the middle and low end).

From what I understand, the average dps in this game is roughly somewhere between 15-25k (before this nerf). This was hinted at with the introduction of companions, when the developers stated they did not want the companion dps to be higher than the average player’s.

So just think about what that means. The top dps, doing five to six times the average players dps.

Not twice or three times the average, but five to six times the average.

And in eso, where gear is kind of accessible, it means a lot of this difference falls upon the combat system itself.

Does that sound healthy for any game? If I was developing content for this game, I would not know where to begin.
How do I balance something “difficult”, twice the average dps? But the high end will destroy it.
80% of high end dps? Still too easy for them but how many people are going to see it anyway.

You have to create an accessible vet level, then a full throttle hard mode? Do we need to add layers in between now? That’s crazy.

But that 15-20k is 100% not on a trial dummy. End game parses are using the trial dummy. People keep throwing out these sub 30k heavy attack parses that are clearly not on a trial dummy, and then trying to compare themselves to players hitting 80K on a trial dummy.

That player hitting 80k on a trial dummy with oakensoul is hitting 28k on a 3m dummy doing the same thing, without penetration.

28k/80k is the floor for a completed setup oakensorcs build. If you aren't hitting that, your build isn't finished and your parse isn't valid for balancing consideration.

And the reason that is the floor is because that is the DPS the build gets with just holding the heavy attack button down.

So, even if the average player on normal builds hit 15-20k on a 3M dummy, they are being out parsed by oaken builds by a whole lot.

And for non oaken builds, a player doing 130K DPS is likely hitting around 50k on a normal dummy. Which is right in that 2-3 times the average range.

I got 59k on the trial dummy and I get between 28-32 dps on the 3 mill. So I’m not getting 80k I actually posted my results here.

Yeah, and your build isn't complete, as has been mentioned previously.

Again, 80K, with just holding heavy attack down is the baseline of the build. It takes no skill to do so, absolutely zero parsing. Just holding 1 button the entire time while the dummy dies.

But also, let's look at comparisons here. You hit 30k average now on the 3M. Awesome. My solo 2 bar build that solos vet dungeons and does vet trials and vet arenas, does 20M on a 3M dummy.

So already, your build does 10K more DPS than a build that is capable of doing 90% of content in the game.

Your build, at worst will lost 2K. So 28K average DPS, again, still doing 8K more than a solo two bar build that is capable of doing the same content.

You will be fine. Your build isn't even complete yet, you still have like 20k more DPS to land in your lap from just heavy attacking.

That’s why I’d rather switch to healer for group stuff so I can avoid the resentment and than play how I want solo (if it will even be viable anymore ).

@isadoraisacat just remember that healing can be even more stressful than DPSing depending on the content; it's not a stand in for HA builds as you're constantly casting skills, maintaining buffs, etc. and a higher CPM is expected. I know that we frequently clash on forums topics but it's not personal so if you do start healing DM me and I can give you pointers, build advice, and good resources to use as well as guidance on which sets to farm since healers are expected to have a lot of sets ready to go. Healing is not a get out of jail free card and we are judged by metrics such as raw HPS and buff/debuff uptimes just like DPS are judged on their DPS. Since we don't have a healing trial dummy we are often expected to link our clears, our gear sets, and even logs when applying for a guild as a healer or a core team as a healer so don't be surprised if that is requested should you make the transition to healer. There are also addons that you should run as a healer and I can point you in the right direction for those as well.

Regarding if your DPS build will be viable, I assure you that it will be, it's a small adjustment as ZoS goes and you will likely not notice the performance drop when Necrom drops and if you keep up to date on new build tweaks from your favorite content creators you're likely to regain most if not all of the performance when they adjust the builds in response to these changes.

I love maintaining buffs and dots etc that’s fine. My issue is the weaving mechanic it’s painful on my hands which have injury from repetitive motion very similar to what you do with weaving. I’ll have to see how it works and if it works for me.

I don’t really like “content creators” I find most of them extremely arrogant and cocky. I usually just read here or Reddit and see what people are doing.

I definitely have heard stories of healers being bullied same with tanks. So I don’t see it as a “get out of jail card” I see it as a “no weaving card”.

I’d rather learn something new than keep changing my gear to hold on to a play style people
Resent and don’t want to have in their group.

It’s unfortunate but I’m being realistic. If they liked it they wouldn’t have begged for nerfs in the first place. And they will continue after these go through.

Regardless of your like or dislike of content creators they know the game even better than the devs so they are your best bet at regaining any lost power due to their in depth knowledge and theory crafting. Odds are any builds you saw on reddit or here came from a content creator or someone who runs in the same circles in the end game.

You'll need to also adapt to nerfs and buffs as a healer and dialing in builds are just as important for healers as for DPS. After U35 we refined our builds such as changing the morph of grand healing from illustrious healing to healing springs, and swapping out radiating regeneration for echoing vigor to make up for the substantial U35 healing nerfs. With the last patch I changed morphs of backlash from POTL to Purifying light on my templar due to the changes to ice staves. Meta sets also change for healers although I think we have far more stability than the DPS players do in this department - but we are expected to have far more sets ready to go for trials.

Weaving is something that a really good healer also does for things like ulti-gen but it's not as mandatory as it is for DPS. You are right about healers and tanks occasionally being the target of ire, there's a joke that my raid groups like to repeat called "blame the healer" when a DPS stands in stupid and dies. I personally find "blame the healer/tank" is something you are less likely to see in established end game communities and groups and more something that one finds in PUGs with people of unknown skill level. One thing I found while DPSing this week is that it seems far less stressful than healing and it reinforced my chosen role as healer as I find healing more engaging, although that could be due to me using a HA build instead of a 2 bar build with complex rotation.

Right well I just don’t enjoy watching these “creators” I don’t like most of their personalities. This goes for the “influencer” worship these days with the younger crowd.

I don’t really care where the info comes from I’d rather learn from a player or from a thread than listen to some guy on YouTube brag for 20 minutes.

I can weave (I don’t like it and I think it’s a silly mechanic) but I would tolerate something that doesn’t rely on click click click click every 2 seconds. I’ll have to try out being a healer and decide. If I don’t like it once again I can go back to just being a solo player and use the game as tes 5.5 until the release of tes 6. It’s not a problem.

But it’s not really about “adapting” to nerfs and Buffs. It’s about knowing when to walk away when you aren’t wanted rather than beating a dead horse.

The option to play solo and ignore the group content will always exist for me. Just sucks story content is locked behind dlc group dungeons.. which was the main reason why I wanted to get more into the multiplayer aspect of the game.

You can always look at the content creators' websites or discords for their builds and avoid the videos if you don't like watching 10-20 minute build videos. Regarding the story content in the dungeons and trial the story doesn't change from Normal-veteran-veteran HM so if you really want to experience the story normal is always an option if you don't want to 'get sweaty' as groups running normal have no requirements for composition so HA builds won't be turned away even if that became a thing in veteran and above versions.

isadoraisacat · May 2023

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I wrote a big post above talking about the problems having the top end dps being extremely high (while nerfing the middle and low end).

From what I understand, the average dps in this game is roughly somewhere between 15-25k (before this nerf). This was hinted at with the introduction of companions, when the developers stated they did not want the companion dps to be higher than the average player’s.

So just think about what that means. The top dps, doing five to six times the average players dps.

Not twice or three times the average, but five to six times the average.

And in eso, where gear is kind of accessible, it means a lot of this difference falls upon the combat system itself.

Does that sound healthy for any game? If I was developing content for this game, I would not know where to begin.
How do I balance something “difficult”, twice the average dps? But the high end will destroy it.
80% of high end dps? Still too easy for them but how many people are going to see it anyway.

You have to create an accessible vet level, then a full throttle hard mode? Do we need to add layers in between now? That’s crazy.

But that 15-20k is 100% not on a trial dummy. End game parses are using the trial dummy. People keep throwing out these sub 30k heavy attack parses that are clearly not on a trial dummy, and then trying to compare themselves to players hitting 80K on a trial dummy.

That player hitting 80k on a trial dummy with oakensoul is hitting 28k on a 3m dummy doing the same thing, without penetration.

28k/80k is the floor for a completed setup oakensorcs build. If you aren't hitting that, your build isn't finished and your parse isn't valid for balancing consideration.

And the reason that is the floor is because that is the DPS the build gets with just holding the heavy attack button down.

So, even if the average player on normal builds hit 15-20k on a 3M dummy, they are being out parsed by oaken builds by a whole lot.

And for non oaken builds, a player doing 130K DPS is likely hitting around 50k on a normal dummy. Which is right in that 2-3 times the average range.

I got 59k on the trial dummy and I get between 28-32 dps on the 3 mill. So I’m not getting 80k I actually posted my results here.

Yeah, and your build isn't complete, as has been mentioned previously.

Again, 80K, with just holding heavy attack down is the baseline of the build. It takes no skill to do so, absolutely zero parsing. Just holding 1 button the entire time while the dummy dies.

But also, let's look at comparisons here. You hit 30k average now on the 3M. Awesome. My solo 2 bar build that solos vet dungeons and does vet trials and vet arenas, does 20M on a 3M dummy.

So already, your build does 10K more DPS than a build that is capable of doing 90% of content in the game.

Your build, at worst will lost 2K. So 28K average DPS, again, still doing 8K more than a solo two bar build that is capable of doing the same content.

You will be fine. Your build isn't even complete yet, you still have like 20k more DPS to land in your lap from just heavy attacking.

That’s why I’d rather switch to healer for group stuff so I can avoid the resentment and than play how I want solo (if it will even be viable anymore ).

@isadoraisacat just remember that healing can be even more stressful than DPSing depending on the content; it's not a stand in for HA builds as you're constantly casting skills, maintaining buffs, etc. and a higher CPM is expected. I know that we frequently clash on forums topics but it's not personal so if you do start healing DM me and I can give you pointers, build advice, and good resources to use as well as guidance on which sets to farm since healers are expected to have a lot of sets ready to go. Healing is not a get out of jail free card and we are judged by metrics such as raw HPS and buff/debuff uptimes just like DPS are judged on their DPS. Since we don't have a healing trial dummy we are often expected to link our clears, our gear sets, and even logs when applying for a guild as a healer or a core team as a healer so don't be surprised if that is requested should you make the transition to healer. There are also addons that you should run as a healer and I can point you in the right direction for those as well.

Regarding if your DPS build will be viable, I assure you that it will be, it's a small adjustment as ZoS goes and you will likely not notice the performance drop when Necrom drops and if you keep up to date on new build tweaks from your favorite content creators you're likely to regain most if not all of the performance when they adjust the builds in response to these changes.

I love maintaining buffs and dots etc that’s fine. My issue is the weaving mechanic it’s painful on my hands which have injury from repetitive motion very similar to what you do with weaving. I’ll have to see how it works and if it works for me.

I don’t really like “content creators” I find most of them extremely arrogant and cocky. I usually just read here or Reddit and see what people are doing.

I definitely have heard stories of healers being bullied same with tanks. So I don’t see it as a “get out of jail card” I see it as a “no weaving card”.

I’d rather learn something new than keep changing my gear to hold on to a play style people
Resent and don’t want to have in their group.

It’s unfortunate but I’m being realistic. If they liked it they wouldn’t have begged for nerfs in the first place. And they will continue after these go through.

Regardless of your like or dislike of content creators they know the game even better than the devs so they are your best bet at regaining any lost power due to their in depth knowledge and theory crafting. Odds are any builds you saw on reddit or here came from a content creator or someone who runs in the same circles in the end game.

You'll need to also adapt to nerfs and buffs as a healer and dialing in builds are just as important for healers as for DPS. After U35 we refined our builds such as changing the morph of grand healing from illustrious healing to healing springs, and swapping out radiating regeneration for echoing vigor to make up for the substantial U35 healing nerfs. With the last patch I changed morphs of backlash from POTL to Purifying light on my templar due to the changes to ice staves. Meta sets also change for healers although I think we have far more stability than the DPS players do in this department - but we are expected to have far more sets ready to go for trials.

Weaving is something that a really good healer also does for things like ulti-gen but it's not as mandatory as it is for DPS. You are right about healers and tanks occasionally being the target of ire, there's a joke that my raid groups like to repeat called "blame the healer" when a DPS stands in stupid and dies. I personally find "blame the healer/tank" is something you are less likely to see in established end game communities and groups and more something that one finds in PUGs with people of unknown skill level. One thing I found while DPSing this week is that it seems far less stressful than healing and it reinforced my chosen role as healer as I find healing more engaging, although that could be due to me using a HA build instead of a 2 bar build with complex rotation.

Right well I just don’t enjoy watching these “creators” I don’t like most of their personalities. This goes for the “influencer” worship these days with the younger crowd.

I don’t really care where the info comes from I’d rather learn from a player or from a thread than listen to some guy on YouTube brag for 20 minutes.

I can weave (I don’t like it and I think it’s a silly mechanic) but I would tolerate something that doesn’t rely on click click click click every 2 seconds. I’ll have to try out being a healer and decide. If I don’t like it once again I can go back to just being a solo player and use the game as tes 5.5 until the release of tes 6. It’s not a problem.

But it’s not really about “adapting” to nerfs and Buffs. It’s about knowing when to walk away when you aren’t wanted rather than beating a dead horse.

The option to play solo and ignore the group content will always exist for me. Just sucks story content is locked behind dlc group dungeons.. which was the main reason why I wanted to get more into the multiplayer aspect of the game.

You can always look at the content creators' websites or discords for their builds and avoid the videos if you don't like watching 10-20 minute build videos. Regarding the story content in the dungeons and trial the story doesn't change from Normal-veteran-veteran HM so if you really want to experience the story normal is always an option if you don't want to 'get sweaty' as groups running normal have no requirements for composition so HA builds won't be turned away even if that became a thing in veteran and above versions.

I’d rather not support these “creators” personally. I’d rather ask a player if I want advice and I know a ton of them who can guide me I don’t need a “creator”.

As for what I said I mean the DLC dungeons which are much more difficult the stories that begin chapters are locked behind and most of them are much more difficult than a vet normal dungeon.

Oh they definitely will be turned away.. people do not like them. And maybe will switch back to the old ways in a resentful way due to the on going nerfs. What’s happening now isn’t the end mark my words they will keep asking for more nerfs and continue to insult and shun players using this build. You don’t need to keep convincing me, I know it’s not wanted hence why I’m no longer going to use it in a group setting or just go back to being a solo player.

Edit : for typos that made my point have less impact.

BlueRaven · May 2023

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I wrote a big post above talking about the problems having the top end dps being extremely high (while nerfing the middle and low end).

From what I understand, the average dps in this game is roughly somewhere between 15-25k (before this nerf). This was hinted at with the introduction of companions, when the developers stated they did not want the companion dps to be higher than the average player’s.

So just think about what that means. The top dps, doing five to six times the average players dps.

Not twice or three times the average, but five to six times the average.

And in eso, where gear is kind of accessible, it means a lot of this difference falls upon the combat system itself.

Does that sound healthy for any game? If I was developing content for this game, I would not know where to begin.
How do I balance something “difficult”, twice the average dps? But the high end will destroy it.
80% of high end dps? Still too easy for them but how many people are going to see it anyway.

You have to create an accessible vet level, then a full throttle hard mode? Do we need to add layers in between now? That’s crazy.

But that 15-20k is 100% not on a trial dummy. End game parses are using the trial dummy. People keep throwing out these sub 30k heavy attack parses that are clearly not on a trial dummy, and then trying to compare themselves to players hitting 80K on a trial dummy.

That player hitting 80k on a trial dummy with oakensoul is hitting 28k on a 3m dummy doing the same thing, without penetration.

28k/80k is the floor for a completed setup oakensorcs build. If you aren't hitting that, your build isn't finished and your parse isn't valid for balancing consideration.

And the reason that is the floor is because that is the DPS the build gets with just holding the heavy attack button down.

So, even if the average player on normal builds hit 15-20k on a 3M dummy, they are being out parsed by oaken builds by a whole lot.

And for non oaken builds, a player doing 130K DPS is likely hitting around 50k on a normal dummy. Which is right in that 2-3 times the average range.

I got 59k on the trial dummy and I get between 28-32 dps on the 3 mill. So I’m not getting 80k I actually posted my results here.

Yeah, and your build isn't complete, as has been mentioned previously.

Again, 80K, with just holding heavy attack down is the baseline of the build. It takes no skill to do so, absolutely zero parsing. Just holding 1 button the entire time while the dummy dies.

But also, let's look at comparisons here. You hit 30k average now on the 3M. Awesome. My solo 2 bar build that solos vet dungeons and does vet trials and vet arenas, does 20M on a 3M dummy.

So already, your build does 10K more DPS than a build that is capable of doing 90% of content in the game.

Your build, at worst will lost 2K. So 28K average DPS, again, still doing 8K more than a solo two bar build that is capable of doing the same content.

You will be fine. Your build isn't even complete yet, you still have like 20k more DPS to land in your lap from just heavy attacking.

That’s why I’d rather switch to healer for group stuff so I can avoid the resentment and than play how I want solo (if it will even be viable anymore ).

@isadoraisacat just remember that healing can be even more stressful than DPSing depending on the content; it's not a stand in for HA builds as you're constantly casting skills, maintaining buffs, etc. and a higher CPM is expected. I know that we frequently clash on forums topics but it's not personal so if you do start healing DM me and I can give you pointers, build advice, and good resources to use as well as guidance on which sets to farm since healers are expected to have a lot of sets ready to go. Healing is not a get out of jail free card and we are judged by metrics such as raw HPS and buff/debuff uptimes just like DPS are judged on their DPS. Since we don't have a healing trial dummy we are often expected to link our clears, our gear sets, and even logs when applying for a guild as a healer or a core team as a healer so don't be surprised if that is requested should you make the transition to healer. There are also addons that you should run as a healer and I can point you in the right direction for those as well.

Regarding if your DPS build will be viable, I assure you that it will be, it's a small adjustment as ZoS goes and you will likely not notice the performance drop when Necrom drops and if you keep up to date on new build tweaks from your favorite content creators you're likely to regain most if not all of the performance when they adjust the builds in response to these changes.

I love maintaining buffs and dots etc that’s fine. My issue is the weaving mechanic it’s painful on my hands which have injury from repetitive motion very similar to what you do with weaving. I’ll have to see how it works and if it works for me.

I don’t really like “content creators” I find most of them extremely arrogant and cocky. I usually just read here or Reddit and see what people are doing.

I definitely have heard stories of healers being bullied same with tanks. So I don’t see it as a “get out of jail card” I see it as a “no weaving card”.

I’d rather learn something new than keep changing my gear to hold on to a play style people
Resent and don’t want to have in their group.

It’s unfortunate but I’m being realistic. If they liked it they wouldn’t have begged for nerfs in the first place. And they will continue after these go through.

Regardless of your like or dislike of content creators they know the game even better than the devs so they are your best bet at regaining any lost power due to their in depth knowledge and theory crafting...

They may have knowledge about their particular area of the game, but many content creators come off as very arrogant towards people who are not in their clique. Some of it comes off as very high school “cool kids table” mentality towards lower end dps players, telling their audience about what those less skilled players need (like they gave a moments consideration about their needs).

This whole thing about raging against the oak ring and HA builds have really soured me on the community as a whole. I was really proud about the eso community until recently, now I have begun to see they are just like any other.

Liguar · May 2023

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Regardless of your like or dislike of content creators they know the game even better than the devs so they are your best bet at regaining any lost power due to their in depth knowledge and theory crafting. Odds are any builds you saw on reddit or here came from a content creator or someone who runs in the same circles in the end game.

I think at this point it's quite common for people to google builds and stuff, especially as a new player.

My issue with content creators (apart from that youtube thumbnail style with buzzwords in caps, which I find incredibly grating) is that a bunch of them post optimized builds with the right gear and not really any training wheels version. At least when I started playing ESO a few years ago lot of the recommended builds I first stumbled on used trial gear, or even DLC dungeon sets that were out of reach and fancy, expensive foods and potions.

Another one of them was then put forth as the more newbie friendly, with crafted/overland gear and whatnot, but soon I realized it was a waste of time. For example, I noted fairly recently that they had clearly copy-pasted a rotation from another one of their other guides for the HA build. First time I ever saw a HA build rotation with LA weaving and no HA. And no HA sets either.

But I don't hate on all of them. Arttea is great (because gold is a big obstacle for new players), and credit to HTM for making a video on how to make a build, pointing out that race min-maxing only really matters for people doing endgame stuff, and a pet-free sorc build.

isadoraisacat · May 2023

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I wrote a big post above talking about the problems having the top end dps being extremely high (while nerfing the middle and low end).

From what I understand, the average dps in this game is roughly somewhere between 15-25k (before this nerf). This was hinted at with the introduction of companions, when the developers stated they did not want the companion dps to be higher than the average player’s.

So just think about what that means. The top dps, doing five to six times the average players dps.

Not twice or three times the average, but five to six times the average.

And in eso, where gear is kind of accessible, it means a lot of this difference falls upon the combat system itself.

Does that sound healthy for any game? If I was developing content for this game, I would not know where to begin.
How do I balance something “difficult”, twice the average dps? But the high end will destroy it.
80% of high end dps? Still too easy for them but how many people are going to see it anyway.

You have to create an accessible vet level, then a full throttle hard mode? Do we need to add layers in between now? That’s crazy.

But that 15-20k is 100% not on a trial dummy. End game parses are using the trial dummy. People keep throwing out these sub 30k heavy attack parses that are clearly not on a trial dummy, and then trying to compare themselves to players hitting 80K on a trial dummy.

That player hitting 80k on a trial dummy with oakensoul is hitting 28k on a 3m dummy doing the same thing, without penetration.

28k/80k is the floor for a completed setup oakensorcs build. If you aren't hitting that, your build isn't finished and your parse isn't valid for balancing consideration.

And the reason that is the floor is because that is the DPS the build gets with just holding the heavy attack button down.

So, even if the average player on normal builds hit 15-20k on a 3M dummy, they are being out parsed by oaken builds by a whole lot.

And for non oaken builds, a player doing 130K DPS is likely hitting around 50k on a normal dummy. Which is right in that 2-3 times the average range.

I got 59k on the trial dummy and I get between 28-32 dps on the 3 mill. So I’m not getting 80k I actually posted my results here.

Yeah, and your build isn't complete, as has been mentioned previously.

Again, 80K, with just holding heavy attack down is the baseline of the build. It takes no skill to do so, absolutely zero parsing. Just holding 1 button the entire time while the dummy dies.

But also, let's look at comparisons here. You hit 30k average now on the 3M. Awesome. My solo 2 bar build that solos vet dungeons and does vet trials and vet arenas, does 20M on a 3M dummy.

So already, your build does 10K more DPS than a build that is capable of doing 90% of content in the game.

Your build, at worst will lost 2K. So 28K average DPS, again, still doing 8K more than a solo two bar build that is capable of doing the same content.

You will be fine. Your build isn't even complete yet, you still have like 20k more DPS to land in your lap from just heavy attacking.

That’s why I’d rather switch to healer for group stuff so I can avoid the resentment and than play how I want solo (if it will even be viable anymore ).

@isadoraisacat just remember that healing can be even more stressful than DPSing depending on the content; it's not a stand in for HA builds as you're constantly casting skills, maintaining buffs, etc. and a higher CPM is expected. I know that we frequently clash on forums topics but it's not personal so if you do start healing DM me and I can give you pointers, build advice, and good resources to use as well as guidance on which sets to farm since healers are expected to have a lot of sets ready to go. Healing is not a get out of jail free card and we are judged by metrics such as raw HPS and buff/debuff uptimes just like DPS are judged on their DPS. Since we don't have a healing trial dummy we are often expected to link our clears, our gear sets, and even logs when applying for a guild as a healer or a core team as a healer so don't be surprised if that is requested should you make the transition to healer. There are also addons that you should run as a healer and I can point you in the right direction for those as well.

Regarding if your DPS build will be viable, I assure you that it will be, it's a small adjustment as ZoS goes and you will likely not notice the performance drop when Necrom drops and if you keep up to date on new build tweaks from your favorite content creators you're likely to regain most if not all of the performance when they adjust the builds in response to these changes.

I love maintaining buffs and dots etc that’s fine. My issue is the weaving mechanic it’s painful on my hands which have injury from repetitive motion very similar to what you do with weaving. I’ll have to see how it works and if it works for me.

I don’t really like “content creators” I find most of them extremely arrogant and cocky. I usually just read here or Reddit and see what people are doing.

I definitely have heard stories of healers being bullied same with tanks. So I don’t see it as a “get out of jail card” I see it as a “no weaving card”.

I’d rather learn something new than keep changing my gear to hold on to a play style people
Resent and don’t want to have in their group.

It’s unfortunate but I’m being realistic. If they liked it they wouldn’t have begged for nerfs in the first place. And they will continue after these go through.

Regardless of your like or dislike of content creators they know the game even better than the devs so they are your best bet at regaining any lost power due to their in depth knowledge and theory crafting...

They may have knowledge about their particular area of the game, but many content creators come off as very arrogant towards people who are not in their clique. Some of it comes off as very high school “cool kids table” mentality towards lower end dps players, telling their audience about what those less skilled players need (like they gave a moments consideration about their needs).

This whole thing about raging against the oak ring and HA builds have really soured me on the community as a whole. I was really proud about the eso community until recently, now I have begun to see they are just like any other.

This is exactly what I mean about “content creators “ you nailed it.

Ragnarok0130 · May 2023

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I wrote a big post above talking about the problems having the top end dps being extremely high (while nerfing the middle and low end).

From what I understand, the average dps in this game is roughly somewhere between 15-25k (before this nerf). This was hinted at with the introduction of companions, when the developers stated they did not want the companion dps to be higher than the average player’s.

So just think about what that means. The top dps, doing five to six times the average players dps.

Not twice or three times the average, but five to six times the average.

And in eso, where gear is kind of accessible, it means a lot of this difference falls upon the combat system itself.

Does that sound healthy for any game? If I was developing content for this game, I would not know where to begin.
How do I balance something “difficult”, twice the average dps? But the high end will destroy it.
80% of high end dps? Still too easy for them but how many people are going to see it anyway.

You have to create an accessible vet level, then a full throttle hard mode? Do we need to add layers in between now? That’s crazy.

But that 15-20k is 100% not on a trial dummy. End game parses are using the trial dummy. People keep throwing out these sub 30k heavy attack parses that are clearly not on a trial dummy, and then trying to compare themselves to players hitting 80K on a trial dummy.

That player hitting 80k on a trial dummy with oakensoul is hitting 28k on a 3m dummy doing the same thing, without penetration.

28k/80k is the floor for a completed setup oakensorcs build. If you aren't hitting that, your build isn't finished and your parse isn't valid for balancing consideration.

And the reason that is the floor is because that is the DPS the build gets with just holding the heavy attack button down.

So, even if the average player on normal builds hit 15-20k on a 3M dummy, they are being out parsed by oaken builds by a whole lot.

And for non oaken builds, a player doing 130K DPS is likely hitting around 50k on a normal dummy. Which is right in that 2-3 times the average range.

I got 59k on the trial dummy and I get between 28-32 dps on the 3 mill. So I’m not getting 80k I actually posted my results here.

Yeah, and your build isn't complete, as has been mentioned previously.

Again, 80K, with just holding heavy attack down is the baseline of the build. It takes no skill to do so, absolutely zero parsing. Just holding 1 button the entire time while the dummy dies.

But also, let's look at comparisons here. You hit 30k average now on the 3M. Awesome. My solo 2 bar build that solos vet dungeons and does vet trials and vet arenas, does 20M on a 3M dummy.

So already, your build does 10K more DPS than a build that is capable of doing 90% of content in the game.

Your build, at worst will lost 2K. So 28K average DPS, again, still doing 8K more than a solo two bar build that is capable of doing the same content.

You will be fine. Your build isn't even complete yet, you still have like 20k more DPS to land in your lap from just heavy attacking.

That’s why I’d rather switch to healer for group stuff so I can avoid the resentment and than play how I want solo (if it will even be viable anymore ).

@isadoraisacat just remember that healing can be even more stressful than DPSing depending on the content; it's not a stand in for HA builds as you're constantly casting skills, maintaining buffs, etc. and a higher CPM is expected. I know that we frequently clash on forums topics but it's not personal so if you do start healing DM me and I can give you pointers, build advice, and good resources to use as well as guidance on which sets to farm since healers are expected to have a lot of sets ready to go. Healing is not a get out of jail free card and we are judged by metrics such as raw HPS and buff/debuff uptimes just like DPS are judged on their DPS. Since we don't have a healing trial dummy we are often expected to link our clears, our gear sets, and even logs when applying for a guild as a healer or a core team as a healer so don't be surprised if that is requested should you make the transition to healer. There are also addons that you should run as a healer and I can point you in the right direction for those as well.

Regarding if your DPS build will be viable, I assure you that it will be, it's a small adjustment as ZoS goes and you will likely not notice the performance drop when Necrom drops and if you keep up to date on new build tweaks from your favorite content creators you're likely to regain most if not all of the performance when they adjust the builds in response to these changes.

I love maintaining buffs and dots etc that’s fine. My issue is the weaving mechanic it’s painful on my hands which have injury from repetitive motion very similar to what you do with weaving. I’ll have to see how it works and if it works for me.

I don’t really like “content creators” I find most of them extremely arrogant and cocky. I usually just read here or Reddit and see what people are doing.

I definitely have heard stories of healers being bullied same with tanks. So I don’t see it as a “get out of jail card” I see it as a “no weaving card”.

I’d rather learn something new than keep changing my gear to hold on to a play style people
Resent and don’t want to have in their group.

It’s unfortunate but I’m being realistic. If they liked it they wouldn’t have begged for nerfs in the first place. And they will continue after these go through.

Regardless of your like or dislike of content creators they know the game even better than the devs so they are your best bet at regaining any lost power due to their in depth knowledge and theory crafting...

They may have knowledge about their particular area of the game, but many content creators come off as very arrogant towards people who are not in their clique. Some of it comes off as very high school “cool kids table” mentality towards lower end dps players, telling their audience about what those less skilled players need (like they gave a moments consideration about their needs).

This whole thing about raging against the oak ring and HA builds have really soured me on the community as a whole. I was really proud about the eso community until recently, now I have begun to see they are just like any other.

I'm able to separate the art from the artist so even if I dislike a specific created persona I still find value in the data that they present. I've also not run into any content creator raging about Oakenbuilds, in fact they keep creating build videos for Oakensoul and some have been publicly vocal about HA builds being an excellent gateway to veteran content.

Liguar wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Regardless of your like or dislike of content creators they know the game even better than the devs so they are your best bet at regaining any lost power due to their in depth knowledge and theory crafting. Odds are any builds you saw on reddit or here came from a content creator or someone who runs in the same circles in the end game.

I think at this point it's quite common for people to google builds and stuff, especially as a new player.

My issue with content creators (apart from that youtube thumbnail style with buzzwords in caps, which I find incredibly grating) is that a bunch of them post optimized builds with the right gear and not really any training wheels version. At least when I started playing ESO a few years ago lot of the recommended builds I first stumbled on used trial gear, or even DLC dungeon sets that were out of reach and fancy, expensive foods and potions.

Another one of them was then put forth as the more newbie friendly, with crafted/overland gear and whatnot, but soon I realized it was a waste of time. For example, I noted fairly recently that they had clearly copy-pasted a rotation from another one of their other guides for the HA build. First time I ever saw a HA build rotation with LA weaving and no HA. And no HA sets either.

But I don't hate on all of them. Arttea is great (because gold is a big obstacle for new players), and credit to HTM for making a video on how to make a build, pointing out that race min-maxing only really matters for people doing endgame stuff, and a pet-free sorc build.

When I decided to get into the end game I found several sites that had builds for each role and sometimes they'd have 3 tiers of builds for each role so a player can get started beginning with crafting or farming overland sets, then obtaining dungeon sets, and finally which trial sets to farm. This crawl/walk/run method is extremely helpful and many of those builds even had a CP progression for each node to slop for how many CP you currently had as a new/intermediate/veteran player.

I'm with you on video thumbnails, they really make me roll my eyes a majority of the time. Definite agreement on Arttea, she's a solid player and seems to be realistic and nice in her vids and offers criticism of ZoS when appropriate.

isadoraisacat · May 2023

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I wrote a big post above talking about the problems having the top end dps being extremely high (while nerfing the middle and low end).

From what I understand, the average dps in this game is roughly somewhere between 15-25k (before this nerf). This was hinted at with the introduction of companions, when the developers stated they did not want the companion dps to be higher than the average player’s.

So just think about what that means. The top dps, doing five to six times the average players dps.

Not twice or three times the average, but five to six times the average.

And in eso, where gear is kind of accessible, it means a lot of this difference falls upon the combat system itself.

Does that sound healthy for any game? If I was developing content for this game, I would not know where to begin.
How do I balance something “difficult”, twice the average dps? But the high end will destroy it.
80% of high end dps? Still too easy for them but how many people are going to see it anyway.

You have to create an accessible vet level, then a full throttle hard mode? Do we need to add layers in between now? That’s crazy.

But that 15-20k is 100% not on a trial dummy. End game parses are using the trial dummy. People keep throwing out these sub 30k heavy attack parses that are clearly not on a trial dummy, and then trying to compare themselves to players hitting 80K on a trial dummy.

That player hitting 80k on a trial dummy with oakensoul is hitting 28k on a 3m dummy doing the same thing, without penetration.

28k/80k is the floor for a completed setup oakensorcs build. If you aren't hitting that, your build isn't finished and your parse isn't valid for balancing consideration.

And the reason that is the floor is because that is the DPS the build gets with just holding the heavy attack button down.

So, even if the average player on normal builds hit 15-20k on a 3M dummy, they are being out parsed by oaken builds by a whole lot.

And for non oaken builds, a player doing 130K DPS is likely hitting around 50k on a normal dummy. Which is right in that 2-3 times the average range.

I got 59k on the trial dummy and I get between 28-32 dps on the 3 mill. So I’m not getting 80k I actually posted my results here.

Yeah, and your build isn't complete, as has been mentioned previously.

Again, 80K, with just holding heavy attack down is the baseline of the build. It takes no skill to do so, absolutely zero parsing. Just holding 1 button the entire time while the dummy dies.

But also, let's look at comparisons here. You hit 30k average now on the 3M. Awesome. My solo 2 bar build that solos vet dungeons and does vet trials and vet arenas, does 20M on a 3M dummy.

So already, your build does 10K more DPS than a build that is capable of doing 90% of content in the game.

Your build, at worst will lost 2K. So 28K average DPS, again, still doing 8K more than a solo two bar build that is capable of doing the same content.

You will be fine. Your build isn't even complete yet, you still have like 20k more DPS to land in your lap from just heavy attacking.

That’s why I’d rather switch to healer for group stuff so I can avoid the resentment and than play how I want solo (if it will even be viable anymore ).

@isadoraisacat just remember that healing can be even more stressful than DPSing depending on the content; it's not a stand in for HA builds as you're constantly casting skills, maintaining buffs, etc. and a higher CPM is expected. I know that we frequently clash on forums topics but it's not personal so if you do start healing DM me and I can give you pointers, build advice, and good resources to use as well as guidance on which sets to farm since healers are expected to have a lot of sets ready to go. Healing is not a get out of jail free card and we are judged by metrics such as raw HPS and buff/debuff uptimes just like DPS are judged on their DPS. Since we don't have a healing trial dummy we are often expected to link our clears, our gear sets, and even logs when applying for a guild as a healer or a core team as a healer so don't be surprised if that is requested should you make the transition to healer. There are also addons that you should run as a healer and I can point you in the right direction for those as well.

Regarding if your DPS build will be viable, I assure you that it will be, it's a small adjustment as ZoS goes and you will likely not notice the performance drop when Necrom drops and if you keep up to date on new build tweaks from your favorite content creators you're likely to regain most if not all of the performance when they adjust the builds in response to these changes.

I love maintaining buffs and dots etc that’s fine. My issue is the weaving mechanic it’s painful on my hands which have injury from repetitive motion very similar to what you do with weaving. I’ll have to see how it works and if it works for me.

I don’t really like “content creators” I find most of them extremely arrogant and cocky. I usually just read here or Reddit and see what people are doing.

I definitely have heard stories of healers being bullied same with tanks. So I don’t see it as a “get out of jail card” I see it as a “no weaving card”.

I’d rather learn something new than keep changing my gear to hold on to a play style people
Resent and don’t want to have in their group.

It’s unfortunate but I’m being realistic. If they liked it they wouldn’t have begged for nerfs in the first place. And they will continue after these go through.

Regardless of your like or dislike of content creators they know the game even better than the devs so they are your best bet at regaining any lost power due to their in depth knowledge and theory crafting...

They may have knowledge about their particular area of the game, but many content creators come off as very arrogant towards people who are not in their clique. Some of it comes off as very high school “cool kids table” mentality towards lower end dps players, telling their audience about what those less skilled players need (like they gave a moments consideration about their needs).

This whole thing about raging against the oak ring and HA builds have really soured me on the community as a whole. I was really proud about the eso community until recently, now I have begun to see they are just like any other.

I'm able to separate the art from the artist so even if I dislike a specific created persona I still find value in the data that they present. I've also not run into any content creator raging about Oakenbuilds, in fact they keep creating build videos for Oakensoul and some have been publicly vocal about HA builds being an excellent gateway to veteran content.

Liguar wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Regardless of your like or dislike of content creators they know the game even better than the devs so they are your best bet at regaining any lost power due to their in depth knowledge and theory crafting. Odds are any builds you saw on reddit or here came from a content creator or someone who runs in the same circles in the end game.

I think at this point it's quite common for people to google builds and stuff, especially as a new player.

My issue with content creators (apart from that youtube thumbnail style with buzzwords in caps, which I find incredibly grating) is that a bunch of them post optimized builds with the right gear and not really any training wheels version. At least when I started playing ESO a few years ago lot of the recommended builds I first stumbled on used trial gear, or even DLC dungeon sets that were out of reach and fancy, expensive foods and potions.

Another one of them was then put forth as the more newbie friendly, with crafted/overland gear and whatnot, but soon I realized it was a waste of time. For example, I noted fairly recently that they had clearly copy-pasted a rotation from another one of their other guides for the HA build. First time I ever saw a HA build rotation with LA weaving and no HA. And no HA sets either.

But I don't hate on all of them. Arttea is great (because gold is a big obstacle for new players), and credit to HTM for making a video on how to make a build, pointing out that race min-maxing only really matters for people doing endgame stuff, and a pet-free sorc build.

When I decided to get into the end game I found several sites that had builds for each role and sometimes they'd have 3 tiers of builds for each role so a player can get started beginning with crafting or farming overland sets, then obtaining dungeon sets, and finally which trial sets to farm. This crawl/walk/run method is extremely helpful and many of those builds even had a CP progression for each node to slop for how many CP you currently had as a new/intermediate/veteran player.

I'm with you on video thumbnails, they really make me roll my eyes a majority of the time. Definite agreement on Arttea, she's a solid player and seems to be realistic and nice in her vids and offers criticism of ZoS when appropriate.

I think he means the players “raging” about it and the divide in the community and “content creators” making “the nerf is no big deal” videos which they are making because they know it draws in views and controversy aka and money.

I can’t separate the art from the artist. If someone is a bad person who does bad things I will not give them my money or support them. I’d rather support another cause that is positive.

Again there are tons of players who can help others and guide other players. I don’t need to beef up some guys view count and join in the cult like banter.

a lot of “just nerf it” comments in there and many who worship these creators are the ones calling for the nerfs.

I’m a lone wolf at heart who is trying to get the most of the only elder scrolls game currently but I’m not interested in this “content creator” worship
Culture it’s not for me.

The only YouTube I watch is for lore, I listened to the stories the second they bring their personality out or personal life into it I click unsubscribe.

Ragnarok0130 · May 2023

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I wrote a big post above talking about the problems having the top end dps being extremely high (while nerfing the middle and low end).

From what I understand, the average dps in this game is roughly somewhere between 15-25k (before this nerf). This was hinted at with the introduction of companions, when the developers stated they did not want the companion dps to be higher than the average player’s.

So just think about what that means. The top dps, doing five to six times the average players dps.

Not twice or three times the average, but five to six times the average.

And in eso, where gear is kind of accessible, it means a lot of this difference falls upon the combat system itself.

Does that sound healthy for any game? If I was developing content for this game, I would not know where to begin.
How do I balance something “difficult”, twice the average dps? But the high end will destroy it.
80% of high end dps? Still too easy for them but how many people are going to see it anyway.

You have to create an accessible vet level, then a full throttle hard mode? Do we need to add layers in between now? That’s crazy.

But that 15-20k is 100% not on a trial dummy. End game parses are using the trial dummy. People keep throwing out these sub 30k heavy attack parses that are clearly not on a trial dummy, and then trying to compare themselves to players hitting 80K on a trial dummy.

That player hitting 80k on a trial dummy with oakensoul is hitting 28k on a 3m dummy doing the same thing, without penetration.

28k/80k is the floor for a completed setup oakensorcs build. If you aren't hitting that, your build isn't finished and your parse isn't valid for balancing consideration.

And the reason that is the floor is because that is the DPS the build gets with just holding the heavy attack button down.

So, even if the average player on normal builds hit 15-20k on a 3M dummy, they are being out parsed by oaken builds by a whole lot.

And for non oaken builds, a player doing 130K DPS is likely hitting around 50k on a normal dummy. Which is right in that 2-3 times the average range.

I got 59k on the trial dummy and I get between 28-32 dps on the 3 mill. So I’m not getting 80k I actually posted my results here.

Yeah, and your build isn't complete, as has been mentioned previously.

Again, 80K, with just holding heavy attack down is the baseline of the build. It takes no skill to do so, absolutely zero parsing. Just holding 1 button the entire time while the dummy dies.

But also, let's look at comparisons here. You hit 30k average now on the 3M. Awesome. My solo 2 bar build that solos vet dungeons and does vet trials and vet arenas, does 20M on a 3M dummy.

So already, your build does 10K more DPS than a build that is capable of doing 90% of content in the game.

Your build, at worst will lost 2K. So 28K average DPS, again, still doing 8K more than a solo two bar build that is capable of doing the same content.

You will be fine. Your build isn't even complete yet, you still have like 20k more DPS to land in your lap from just heavy attacking.

That’s why I’d rather switch to healer for group stuff so I can avoid the resentment and than play how I want solo (if it will even be viable anymore ).

@isadoraisacat just remember that healing can be even more stressful than DPSing depending on the content; it's not a stand in for HA builds as you're constantly casting skills, maintaining buffs, etc. and a higher CPM is expected. I know that we frequently clash on forums topics but it's not personal so if you do start healing DM me and I can give you pointers, build advice, and good resources to use as well as guidance on which sets to farm since healers are expected to have a lot of sets ready to go. Healing is not a get out of jail free card and we are judged by metrics such as raw HPS and buff/debuff uptimes just like DPS are judged on their DPS. Since we don't have a healing trial dummy we are often expected to link our clears, our gear sets, and even logs when applying for a guild as a healer or a core team as a healer so don't be surprised if that is requested should you make the transition to healer. There are also addons that you should run as a healer and I can point you in the right direction for those as well.

Regarding if your DPS build will be viable, I assure you that it will be, it's a small adjustment as ZoS goes and you will likely not notice the performance drop when Necrom drops and if you keep up to date on new build tweaks from your favorite content creators you're likely to regain most if not all of the performance when they adjust the builds in response to these changes.

I love maintaining buffs and dots etc that’s fine. My issue is the weaving mechanic it’s painful on my hands which have injury from repetitive motion very similar to what you do with weaving. I’ll have to see how it works and if it works for me.

I don’t really like “content creators” I find most of them extremely arrogant and cocky. I usually just read here or Reddit and see what people are doing.

I definitely have heard stories of healers being bullied same with tanks. So I don’t see it as a “get out of jail card” I see it as a “no weaving card”.

I’d rather learn something new than keep changing my gear to hold on to a play style people
Resent and don’t want to have in their group.

It’s unfortunate but I’m being realistic. If they liked it they wouldn’t have begged for nerfs in the first place. And they will continue after these go through.

Regardless of your like or dislike of content creators they know the game even better than the devs so they are your best bet at regaining any lost power due to their in depth knowledge and theory crafting...

They may have knowledge about their particular area of the game, but many content creators come off as very arrogant towards people who are not in their clique. Some of it comes off as very high school “cool kids table” mentality towards lower end dps players, telling their audience about what those less skilled players need (like they gave a moments consideration about their needs).

This whole thing about raging against the oak ring and HA builds have really soured me on the community as a whole. I was really proud about the eso community until recently, now I have begun to see they are just like any other.

I'm able to separate the art from the artist so even if I dislike a specific created persona I still find value in the data that they present. I've also not run into any content creator raging about Oakenbuilds, in fact they keep creating build videos for Oakensoul and some have been publicly vocal about HA builds being an excellent gateway to veteran content.

Liguar wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Regardless of your like or dislike of content creators they know the game even better than the devs so they are your best bet at regaining any lost power due to their in depth knowledge and theory crafting. Odds are any builds you saw on reddit or here came from a content creator or someone who runs in the same circles in the end game.

I think at this point it's quite common for people to google builds and stuff, especially as a new player.

My issue with content creators (apart from that youtube thumbnail style with buzzwords in caps, which I find incredibly grating) is that a bunch of them post optimized builds with the right gear and not really any training wheels version. At least when I started playing ESO a few years ago lot of the recommended builds I first stumbled on used trial gear, or even DLC dungeon sets that were out of reach and fancy, expensive foods and potions.

Another one of them was then put forth as the more newbie friendly, with crafted/overland gear and whatnot, but soon I realized it was a waste of time. For example, I noted fairly recently that they had clearly copy-pasted a rotation from another one of their other guides for the HA build. First time I ever saw a HA build rotation with LA weaving and no HA. And no HA sets either.

But I don't hate on all of them. Arttea is great (because gold is a big obstacle for new players), and credit to HTM for making a video on how to make a build, pointing out that race min-maxing only really matters for people doing endgame stuff, and a pet-free sorc build.

When I decided to get into the end game I found several sites that had builds for each role and sometimes they'd have 3 tiers of builds for each role so a player can get started beginning with crafting or farming overland sets, then obtaining dungeon sets, and finally which trial sets to farm. This crawl/walk/run method is extremely helpful and many of those builds even had a CP progression for each node to slop for how many CP you currently had as a new/intermediate/veteran player.

I'm with you on video thumbnails, they really make me roll my eyes a majority of the time. Definite agreement on Arttea, she's a solid player and seems to be realistic and nice in her vids and offers criticism of ZoS when appropriate.

I think he means the players “raging” about it and the divide in the community and “content creators” making “the nerf is no big deal” videos which they are making because they know it draws in views and controversy aka and money.

I can’t separate the art from the artist. If someone is a bad person who does bad things I will not give them my money or support them. I’d rather support another cause that is positive.

Again there are tons of players who can help others and guide other players. I don’t need to beef up some guys view count and join in the cult like banter.

a lot of “just nerf it” comments in there and many who worship these creators are the ones calling for the nerfs.

I’m a lone wolf at heart who is trying to get the most of the only elder scrolls game currently but I’m not interested in this “content creator” worship
Culture it’s not for me.

The only YouTube I watch is for lore, I listened to the stories the second they bring their personality out or personal life into it I click unsubscribe.

I'm can't say that I understand this hostility towards content creators since ESO content creators all started off as normal players and merely began making videos and publishing guides to help their fellow players out of passion for the game and our community. Much later they "may" have amassed enough views to make a little money doing what they love on the side but that should have little bearing on the good effects their efforts have for the community by creating builds and content guides and it certainly doesn't taint their efforts. One also can't judge a content creator for what his fans say in forums or comments, especially when the content creators themselves have been particularly supportive of oakensoul and other ways to give new players access to the end game.

In other threads I outlined how Nefas and his project vitality greatly aided non-end game players to transition to the end game long before Oakensoul came about and did a darn good job training new players to raid before ZoS destroyed those good community-first efforts with U35. It's not hero worship to give credit where credit is due especially when it involves so much time and effort creating and running the program for no profit. I recall before U35 Nefas has over 250 volunteer raid leads across all platforms world-wide leading training runs and getting new raiders their vet and vet HM clears, and after U35 it's around 30 due to end game players leaving ESO and end game groups turtling up post U35. He obviously didn't create Project Vitality for clout, he knew that we need new raiders to sustain raiding so raid groups don't have to poach from one another.

Regarding the videos showing that the nerf is no big deal the content creators and the people in the PTS forum who made those posts brought the receipts, they showed the data, the math, and the parses from the PTS, and the data shows that the nerf is no big deal so those running around saying that the sky is falling and their play style will no longer be viable when that is not the case is only creating unneeded stress for themselves, causing drama in the forums, and potentially turning people who were neutral about their plight against their position. Many of us have been here since the beginning and have seen drastic nerfs and reworks of classes, skills, and sets so please believe us when we say this isn't the end of the world. I understand that nobody likes their build nerfed but recent history shows that build adjustments can and will get power back.

For lore channels on YouTube I'm a big fan of FudgeMuppet...quality content there.

isadoraisacat · May 2023

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I wrote a big post above talking about the problems having the top end dps being extremely high (while nerfing the middle and low end).

From what I understand, the average dps in this game is roughly somewhere between 15-25k (before this nerf). This was hinted at with the introduction of companions, when the developers stated they did not want the companion dps to be higher than the average player’s.

So just think about what that means. The top dps, doing five to six times the average players dps.

Not twice or three times the average, but five to six times the average.

And in eso, where gear is kind of accessible, it means a lot of this difference falls upon the combat system itself.

Does that sound healthy for any game? If I was developing content for this game, I would not know where to begin.
How do I balance something “difficult”, twice the average dps? But the high end will destroy it.
80% of high end dps? Still too easy for them but how many people are going to see it anyway.

You have to create an accessible vet level, then a full throttle hard mode? Do we need to add layers in between now? That’s crazy.

But that 15-20k is 100% not on a trial dummy. End game parses are using the trial dummy. People keep throwing out these sub 30k heavy attack parses that are clearly not on a trial dummy, and then trying to compare themselves to players hitting 80K on a trial dummy.

That player hitting 80k on a trial dummy with oakensoul is hitting 28k on a 3m dummy doing the same thing, without penetration.

28k/80k is the floor for a completed setup oakensorcs build. If you aren't hitting that, your build isn't finished and your parse isn't valid for balancing consideration.

And the reason that is the floor is because that is the DPS the build gets with just holding the heavy attack button down.

So, even if the average player on normal builds hit 15-20k on a 3M dummy, they are being out parsed by oaken builds by a whole lot.

And for non oaken builds, a player doing 130K DPS is likely hitting around 50k on a normal dummy. Which is right in that 2-3 times the average range.

I got 59k on the trial dummy and I get between 28-32 dps on the 3 mill. So I’m not getting 80k I actually posted my results here.

Yeah, and your build isn't complete, as has been mentioned previously.

Again, 80K, with just holding heavy attack down is the baseline of the build. It takes no skill to do so, absolutely zero parsing. Just holding 1 button the entire time while the dummy dies.

But also, let's look at comparisons here. You hit 30k average now on the 3M. Awesome. My solo 2 bar build that solos vet dungeons and does vet trials and vet arenas, does 20M on a 3M dummy.

So already, your build does 10K more DPS than a build that is capable of doing 90% of content in the game.

Your build, at worst will lost 2K. So 28K average DPS, again, still doing 8K more than a solo two bar build that is capable of doing the same content.

You will be fine. Your build isn't even complete yet, you still have like 20k more DPS to land in your lap from just heavy attacking.

That’s why I’d rather switch to healer for group stuff so I can avoid the resentment and than play how I want solo (if it will even be viable anymore ).

@isadoraisacat just remember that healing can be even more stressful than DPSing depending on the content; it's not a stand in for HA builds as you're constantly casting skills, maintaining buffs, etc. and a higher CPM is expected. I know that we frequently clash on forums topics but it's not personal so if you do start healing DM me and I can give you pointers, build advice, and good resources to use as well as guidance on which sets to farm since healers are expected to have a lot of sets ready to go. Healing is not a get out of jail free card and we are judged by metrics such as raw HPS and buff/debuff uptimes just like DPS are judged on their DPS. Since we don't have a healing trial dummy we are often expected to link our clears, our gear sets, and even logs when applying for a guild as a healer or a core team as a healer so don't be surprised if that is requested should you make the transition to healer. There are also addons that you should run as a healer and I can point you in the right direction for those as well.

Regarding if your DPS build will be viable, I assure you that it will be, it's a small adjustment as ZoS goes and you will likely not notice the performance drop when Necrom drops and if you keep up to date on new build tweaks from your favorite content creators you're likely to regain most if not all of the performance when they adjust the builds in response to these changes.

I love maintaining buffs and dots etc that’s fine. My issue is the weaving mechanic it’s painful on my hands which have injury from repetitive motion very similar to what you do with weaving. I’ll have to see how it works and if it works for me.

I don’t really like “content creators” I find most of them extremely arrogant and cocky. I usually just read here or Reddit and see what people are doing.

I definitely have heard stories of healers being bullied same with tanks. So I don’t see it as a “get out of jail card” I see it as a “no weaving card”.

I’d rather learn something new than keep changing my gear to hold on to a play style people
Resent and don’t want to have in their group.

It’s unfortunate but I’m being realistic. If they liked it they wouldn’t have begged for nerfs in the first place. And they will continue after these go through.

Regardless of your like or dislike of content creators they know the game even better than the devs so they are your best bet at regaining any lost power due to their in depth knowledge and theory crafting...

They may have knowledge about their particular area of the game, but many content creators come off as very arrogant towards people who are not in their clique. Some of it comes off as very high school “cool kids table” mentality towards lower end dps players, telling their audience about what those less skilled players need (like they gave a moments consideration about their needs).

This whole thing about raging against the oak ring and HA builds have really soured me on the community as a whole. I was really proud about the eso community until recently, now I have begun to see they are just like any other.

I'm able to separate the art from the artist so even if I dislike a specific created persona I still find value in the data that they present. I've also not run into any content creator raging about Oakenbuilds, in fact they keep creating build videos for Oakensoul and some have been publicly vocal about HA builds being an excellent gateway to veteran content.

Liguar wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Regardless of your like or dislike of content creators they know the game even better than the devs so they are your best bet at regaining any lost power due to their in depth knowledge and theory crafting. Odds are any builds you saw on reddit or here came from a content creator or someone who runs in the same circles in the end game.

I think at this point it's quite common for people to google builds and stuff, especially as a new player.

My issue with content creators (apart from that youtube thumbnail style with buzzwords in caps, which I find incredibly grating) is that a bunch of them post optimized builds with the right gear and not really any training wheels version. At least when I started playing ESO a few years ago lot of the recommended builds I first stumbled on used trial gear, or even DLC dungeon sets that were out of reach and fancy, expensive foods and potions.

Another one of them was then put forth as the more newbie friendly, with crafted/overland gear and whatnot, but soon I realized it was a waste of time. For example, I noted fairly recently that they had clearly copy-pasted a rotation from another one of their other guides for the HA build. First time I ever saw a HA build rotation with LA weaving and no HA. And no HA sets either.

But I don't hate on all of them. Arttea is great (because gold is a big obstacle for new players), and credit to HTM for making a video on how to make a build, pointing out that race min-maxing only really matters for people doing endgame stuff, and a pet-free sorc build.

When I decided to get into the end game I found several sites that had builds for each role and sometimes they'd have 3 tiers of builds for each role so a player can get started beginning with crafting or farming overland sets, then obtaining dungeon sets, and finally which trial sets to farm. This crawl/walk/run method is extremely helpful and many of those builds even had a CP progression for each node to slop for how many CP you currently had as a new/intermediate/veteran player.

I'm with you on video thumbnails, they really make me roll my eyes a majority of the time. Definite agreement on Arttea, she's a solid player and seems to be realistic and nice in her vids and offers criticism of ZoS when appropriate.

I think he means the players “raging” about it and the divide in the community and “content creators” making “the nerf is no big deal” videos which they are making because they know it draws in views and controversy aka and money.

I can’t separate the art from the artist. If someone is a bad person who does bad things I will not give them my money or support them. I’d rather support another cause that is positive.

Again there are tons of players who can help others and guide other players. I don’t need to beef up some guys view count and join in the cult like banter.

a lot of “just nerf it” comments in there and many who worship these creators are the ones calling for the nerfs.

I’m a lone wolf at heart who is trying to get the most of the only elder scrolls game currently but I’m not interested in this “content creator” worship
Culture it’s not for me.

The only YouTube I watch is for lore, I listened to the stories the second they bring their personality out or personal life into it I click unsubscribe.

I'm can't say that I understand this hostility towards content creators since ESO content creators all started off as normal players and merely began making videos and publishing guides to help their fellow players out of passion for the game and our community. Much later they "may" have amassed enough views to make a little money doing what they love on the side but that should have little bearing on the good effects their efforts have for the community by creating builds and content guides and it certainly doesn't taint their efforts. One also can't judge a content creator for what his fans say in forums or comments, especially when the content creators themselves have been particularly supportive of oakensoul and other ways to give new players access to the end game.

In other threads I outlined how Nefas and his project vitality greatly aided non-end game players to transition to the end game long before Oakensoul came about and did a darn good job training new players to raid before ZoS destroyed those good community-first efforts with U35. It's not hero worship to give credit where credit is due especially when it involves so much time and effort creating and running the program for no profit. I recall before U35 Nefas has over 250 volunteer raid leads across all platforms world-wide leading training runs and getting new raiders their vet and vet HM clears, and after U35 it's around 30 due to end game players leaving ESO and end game groups turtling up post U35. He obviously didn't create Project Vitality for clout, he knew that we need new raiders to sustain raiding so raid groups don't have to poach from one another.

Regarding the videos showing that the nerf is no big deal the content creators and the people in the PTS forum who made those posts brought the receipts, they showed the data, the math, and the parses from the PTS, and the data shows that the nerf is no big deal so those running around saying that the sky is falling and their play style will no longer be viable when that is not the case is only creating unneeded stress for themselves, causing drama in the forums, and potentially turning people who were neutral about their plight against their position. Many of us have been here since the beginning and have seen drastic nerfs and reworks of classes, skills, and sets so please believe us when we say this isn't the end of the world. I understand that nobody likes their build nerfed but recent history shows that build adjustments can and will get power back.

For lore channels on YouTube I'm a big fan of FudgeMuppet...quality content there.

Someone actually showed data to show the nerf is actually worse than is being played off as well on this forum but people choose to ignore it. People will continue to ask for nerfs after
The pts goes live anyway. So the sky is falling because we know it’s gonna eventually come down crashing. Stop as my dad would say blowing smoke up my rear end. We know HA is not wanted and will not be viable in the long run.

Tldr:

As for fudgemuppet their content went down the stinker after drew left a year ago. No podcast, Their videos have been not so good all shorts and non canon mod videos. No more
lore.
Drew who left still makes content like old fudgemuppet which is much better.

Overall imperial knowledge is prob the best as he’s straight to the point which I prefer.

Liguar · May 2023

isadoraisacat wrote: »

[Snip]

I don't know about that specific comment section, but let's say that a lot of channels on YT don't exactly prune their comments. If toxic comments are left up for days/weeks then I assume the creator is okay with it, and I'm very okay with not watching them.

I'm not sure that any of the CCs are really responsible for the anti-HA train, but they probably look at who their audience is and comment accordingly. They can't not comment on it either.

[Edited to remove quote]

isadoraisacat · May 2023

Liguar wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

[Snip]

I don't know about that specific comment section, but let's say that a lot of channels on YT don't exactly prune their comments. If toxic comments are left up for days/weeks then I assume the creator is okay with it, and I'm very okay with not watching them.

I'm not sure that any of the CCs are really responsible for the anti-HA train, but they probably look at who their audience is and comment accordingly. They can't not comment on it either.

The comments are still there.

[Edited quote]

Liguar · May 2023

isadoraisacat wrote: »

The comments are still there.

I figured as much.

If, in the end, I'm down to Arttea and some housing stuff as my only ESO content that's also okay with me. Gold and furnishings are for anyone

isadoraisacat · May 2023

Liguar wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

The comments are still there.

I figured as much.

If, in the end, I'm down to Arttea and some housing stuff as my only ESO content that's also okay with me. Gold and furnishings are for anyone

I’ve watched her content she seems fine to me. I don’t consider her a “content creator” or “influencer” she is a player who makes videos.
There is a difference to me. She’s more of a smaller channel. There is a couple others I have watched who have much smaller channels and decent content that seems more like a guild leader promoting their guild or a player just making some tip videos.

But the big brand ones (I wont say names ) those are the ones I find to edge on the elitist side of things.

loveeso · May 2023

Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7860932/#Comment_7860932

Recap of Anti-HA Rhetoric

After carefully perusing various forum posts, I have collated a summary of arguments put forth by players who employ LA DD builds as to why players who utilize Heavy Attack (HA) play style ought to be weakened. Here are the arguments:

1.
Argument: “HA is so OP that it is best in end-game content - for example look at vAS+2!” (Yes, they always use vAS+2 as an “example”

)

Reality: The vAS+2 trial is an outlier (see below) so this argument is insincere but even in vAS+2 LA teams are performing better than HA teams. The best HA team took approximately 32% longer than the best LA team to complete the trial.

What the anti-HA players conveniently fail to mention is that HA teams are completely destroyed by LA teams in all the other trials (see the DPS tables below) which means that for the sake of honesty this anti-HA argument should be rewritten as follows: “While LA builds reign supreme in 91% of end-game content, in the remaining 9% HA builds perform only 32% worse. Nerf them even more!”

Figure 1: Top DPS tables in all the other (10!) trials. It's just the first page and it's followed by pages and pages completely dominated by LA DDs. Just go to the logs website and check it out yourself - you will see how much LA meta outclasses HA. The difference is so huge that it looks ridiculous

But yeah, let's nerf HA

2.
Argument: “HA builds are much tankier than my LA build! Too tanky! It’s not fair! Nerf their DPS!”

Reality: I have already shown why this excuse to nerf HA builds does not make sense in this post ( https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7857529/#Comment_7857529 ) but I have some additional comments, please continue reading.

First of all, it is not true, as it’s not related to HA but to the Oakensoul ring. Not all HA builds use Oakensoul, and not all Oakensoul peeps use HA, some of them are LA players… and guess what, the nerf tested on the PTS targets HA players, not Oakensoul players.

Having said that, any LA can easily be made as tanky as an Oakensoul build. Here are simple examples how:

Stop using parse food and get food which increases your health - you will lose a tiny bit of your DPS but you will have more health.
Slap prismatic defence on your armour and get more health and magicka or stamina: you will lose just a few % of your super high LA DPS.
In any group content you should already get Major Resolve from your Warden healer or tank so you get the same 6000 armour as Oakensoul players.
Still salty about not having that 5% damage mitigation from Minor Aegis? You have more bar space than 1bar builds, slap Flare on your bar, you will get 10% damage mitigation (or you can swap one of your sets to a set that provides Minor Aegis… or do both and get 10% + 5% damage mitigation)..

The above will make you as tanky as any Oakensoul player. Yes, you will have lower DPS than on your glass-cannon LA build but, guess what, Oakensoul builds pay for their tankiness with their DPS. Good news, if you know how to play, your tanky two-bar LA build will still have higher DPS output than those pesky HA builds.

3.
Argument: “My LA build has problems with sustain and HA builds don’t have any problems with sustain! It’s not fair! Nerf their DPS!”

Reality: If you know what you are doing on a well-designed LA build in a well-composed group (we are talking about end-game content here, aren’t we), you should not have any problems with sustain (especially nowadays, when sustain is so much easier with hybrid builds). If you are still envious of those pesky HA players with their annoying sustain, here are some simple examples of what you can do to have better sustain:

Stop using Increase Magical/Physical Harm on all your jewellery pieces and get regeneration or decrease cost glyphs - you will sustain without any problem and you will lose just a few percent of your DPS
Use a heavy attack every now and then to get resources - you will lose a tiny bit of your DPS but it will still be higher than HA DPS (unless you haven’t got skilled yet). Can’t get Magicka with your greatsword and daggers? Well, it was your choice to equip Stamina weapons on both bars - equip a staff on your back bar.
Modify your build even more, e.g. you can choose a different race, or change your weapons and skills and get better sustain at the cost of DPS (your DPS will still be higher than that of HA builds unless you don’t know what you are doing but in that case either “get good” or… switch to a heavy attack build)

***

As you can see from the above, the "arguments" most commonly employed by HA haters are either insincere or nonsensical. Moreover, the anti-HA rhetoric suffers from another, more significant flaw. The HA critics often fixate on just one HA build, the Oakensoul Sorcerer with a Lightning staff (and often, two pets), to argue for nerfing the whole HA play style. However, when questioned about the need to nerf all the other HA builds that use different classes, weapons, or lack Oakensoul, they either ignore the question or provide weak “justifications” such as "it's not a significant nerf." Such responses fail to address the central issue: why nerf HA builds at all? As has been demonstrated in this thread and in many, many other places, their DPS output is already much lower than that of the two-bar LA meta. This holds true even for Oakensoul lightning sorcerers with their two pets.

To address the elephant in the room, here is an example of a heavy-attack build that is not a sorcerer, does not utilize pets, and relies on weapons other than the lightning staff:

Figure 2: A non-sorcerer non-lightning equivalent to the one-button HA build and the one-skill LA build that we discussed earlier in this thread.

DPS on the trial dummy: 35k (i.e. only 25% of LA meta - but why stop here, let's nerf HA even more! )

As you can see, such HA builds have atrociously low DPS, yet the anti-HA camp calls for nerfs to all HA builds, including those that differ significantly from the Oakensoul lightning sorcerer with pets. This demand is entirely irrational. Instead, a rational approach would be to leave the lightning sorcerer builds (which are already weaker than the LA meta) as they are and bring all other HA builds up to their level.

Next post: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7869559/#Comment_7869559

Daoin · May 2023

are they finally doing away with the HA build ? i mean i like the sound of it but to keep seeing people rally around it for being great for 'disabled' people to be able to get into better content is wrong just all wrong ! take a closer look at the people who critisize someone build rather the build itself the damge it can be capable of, if someones getting a hard time due to thier build then and HA is the only way to overcome it, your hanging around all the wrong people.

FrancisCrawford · May 2023

Some comments on the @loveeso summary a couple posts above:

Overall, great work.
[snip]
Almost the whole discussion is about lightning attack HA builds. Observing that other HA builds do lousy DPS is not very relevant.
[snip]

[edited for baiting]

loveeso · May 2023

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Some comments on the @loveeso summary a couple posts above:
Overall, great work.

[snip]

Almost the whole discussion is about lightning attack HA builds. Observing that other HA builds do lousy DPS is not very relevant.

[snip]

Thanks, corrected the typo. I didn’t start this discussion to talk about lightning HA sorcerer builds - it started with my initial impressions on the Arcanist class and the proposed nerfs that affect ALL HA builds. I do agree with your conclusion that some individuals who insist on nerfing the HA play style will continue to ignore all rational arguments. It can be frustrating to engage with those who refuse to consider opposing viewpoints, even when presented with logical evidence.

[edited to remove quote]

loveeso · May 2023

I just found out from a kind stranger (thank you!) that our small forum thread has gained popularity on YouTube! It's exciting to see that our discussion has reached a wider audience and is sparking interest in the topic. Here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtyKqfiEoaA

If you are still interested in this discussion, don’t miss the latest update here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705

Liguar · May 2023

Pity the pants with real pockets was just part of the funny intro.

Kiyakotari · May 2023

As one of those disabled players, I've always been relegated by default rather than necessarily preference to support roles. I'm lucky that I enjoy tanking, and enjoy healing, but it has been really nice to be able to bring a DPS with a heavy attack Oakensoul build into a trial or a vet dungeon and not feel like I was just being carried.

My partner, on the other hand, is one of those people who views LA-weaving as an exploit, and absolutely refuses to do it. While he does not have any physical disabilities that interfere with his ability to play the game, in the past he has struggled to break 85-90K because of his refusal to LA-weave. He isn't currently playing, and hasn't since HA builds really took off, but regardless he has been pleased for my sake that they've allowed me to enjoy aspects of gameplay that I previously have been unable to.