The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
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• PC/Mac: No maintenance – May 13
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• PC/Mac: No maintenance – May 13
• ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – May 14, 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
Thoughts of a Random Guy on Necrom Changes to HA / Heavy-Attack builds & on Arcanist
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TaSheen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
So you think it's fine to nerf my solo Oakensoul 1bar + class and weapon skills? I'm NOT using HA, I despise HA playstyle, have since I started playing years ago now.
That's pretty one way of you. I'm not involved in the Empower thing or the HA playstyle and the specific armor sets used. I will not be happy if people like you get my play style destroyed.
Oh don't worry, your play style will be next and it won't be because of HA.
It will be because "non-bar swappers have no skills and can do content in easy mode."
Well, this "non-bar-swapper" has ping at lowest 750 ms. Bar swaps don't work, dodge roll doesn't work, skills don't fire.... which is why I only play solo - it would be awful to drop that on a group. And I don't get easy mode either with that amount of ping....
______________________________________________________
But even in books, the heroes make mistakes, and there isn't always a happy ending.
PC NA, PC EU (non steam)- three accounts, many alts....1 -
isadoraisacat✭✭✭✭✭Well this one bar player has hand issues and was impaled with 316 steel and has one half functioning hand. It feels like it only seems
To matter what affects you and not others.0 -
Twig_Garlicshine✭✭✭✭isadoraisacat wrote: »Well this one bar player has hand issues and was impaled with 316 steel and has one half functioning hand. It feels like it only seems
To matter what affects you and not others.
Just wanted to add:
I have enjoyed seeing your alternate builds for both play styles and have recommended them in game to some friends.
1 -
isadoraisacat✭✭✭✭✭isadoraisacat wrote: »Well this one bar player has hand issues and was impaled with 316 steel and has one half functioning hand. It feels like it only seems
To matter what affects you and not others.
Just wanted to add:
I have enjoyed seeing your alternate builds for both play styles and have recommended them in game to some friends.
Cool now this alternate build will be a solo build. I’m switching to healer so I can be done with the drama. The build is toast anyway1 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »Well this one bar player has hand issues and was impaled with 316 steel and has one half functioning hand. It feels like it only seems
To matter what affects you and not others.
Just wanted to add:
I have enjoyed seeing your alternate builds for both play styles and have recommended them in game to some friends.
Cool now this alternate build will be a solo build. I’m switching to healer so I can be done with the drama. The build is toast anyway
Just so you're aware - endgame healing (raids) is harder than DPS. Healers are also expected to LA weave in endgame, on top of healing and keeping up buffs and debuffs, and also dealing with mechanics (healers are often sent out of group to deal with things, and are still expected to keep the group and themselves alive at the same time).
They also carry about 800 different sets for different scenarios.2 -
isadoraisacat✭✭✭✭✭isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »Well this one bar player has hand issues and was impaled with 316 steel and has one half functioning hand. It feels like it only seems
To matter what affects you and not others.
Just wanted to add:
I have enjoyed seeing your alternate builds for both play styles and have recommended them in game to some friends.
Cool now this alternate build will be a solo build. I’m switching to healer so I can be done with the drama. The build is toast anyway
Just so you're aware - endgame healing (raids) is harder than DPS. Healers are also expected to LA weave in endgame, on top of healing and keeping up buffs and debuffs, and also dealing with mechanics (healers are often sent out of group to deal with things, and are still expected to keep the group and themselves alive at the same time).
They also carry about 800 different sets for different scenarios.
Yep I’m aware. I’m gonna give it a go if I don’t like it I’ll just go back to being a solo lone wolf come in for a new chapter main story and dip until the next and treat the game like tes 5.50 -
loveeso✭✭✭✭
I initially wanted to write, ‘ What's the deal with you anti-HA crusaders and your knack for conveniently ignoring any numbers that don't fit your narrative? Are you allergic to stats or something?” However, after seeing that you play on a console, I will assume that you may not be accustomed to reading such logs since you don't use add-ons. It's an honest mistake, and I won't hold it against you.
That being said, it's important to note that the weave in question wasn't exactly "practically perfect." It certainly wouldn't cut it for a trifecta run in my guild, given the 15 missed attacks and the weaving average of 0.106s. These numbers alone indicate that with a perfect weave, the same build is capable of reaching the 118k-120k mark I mentioned earlier.
The additional effort required to incorporate 7 skills in this build versus 6 skills in the 100k HA sorcerer rotation is negligible. In my opinion, the extra 20% DPS that this build offers over the strongest HA build is definitely worth it. Moreover, with this build, you also don't have to worry about sustain, and you're as tanky as any Oakensoul DD. Additionally, as with any LA build, it is easier to avoid damage, move faster, block, dodge, and interrupt, since - unlike the HA sorcerer - you don't have to rely on heavy attacks all the time.
It's important to remember that this build is just an example, and any two-bar LA meta can be modified this way to give you all of these benefits. Two bars and LAs are simply overpowered in this game.MMOs: ESO (PS & PC), GW2 (😍) & Souls/Elden (😍)7 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705Recap of Anti-HA Rhetoric
Yesterday, I had fifteen free minutes and decided I would demonstrate that what I wrote (see: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705 ) in my earlier post was just facts, plain and simple, not mere speculations as we so often see from the anti-HA/Oakensoul camp. I wanted to show that it's possible to make any two-bar light-attack build just as tanky as any Oakensoul build and also incredibly easy to sustain. And, even with these modifications, the build would still outperform any Oakensoul heavy-attack build in terms of DPS.
I use the word "demonstrate" above instead of "test" because I've done this multiple times for myself and my friends over the years. So, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to ESO. I'm not surprised that many mid-tier players who dislike heavy-attack or Oakensoul builds don't believe me. They often haven't learned the game well enough yet. If they did, they would be dealing 120k+ DPS in real content and wouldn't be struggling to compete with weaker heavy-attack and Oakensoul builds. It does not help that so many of them just copy the meta builds (often without even understanding why these builds were designed the way they were) and then get frustrated that they are not there yet.
I've noticed that many anti-HA players struggle with both DPS and survival. This is why they often get triggered when they see others easily cruising through content with their HA builds. But, I believe that if they practice more and learn more about the game, they'll catch up and lose interest in nerfing HA builds. This is how it works, and I've never met a friend at my level or higher who wants to nerf HA or Oakensoul. We enjoy having players with different builds around and we love chilling on HA builds too.
But I digress. So I implemented just a few of the small changes I mentioned in my previous post:
- slapped Prismatic Defense on all body pieces
- switched a glyph on one jewellery piece from Increase Physical/Magical Harm to Reduce Feat Cost
- instead of using parse food, I used food which also increases max health
- I slapped Flare on both bars to get +10% damage mitigation (better than Oakensoul's Minor Aegis which is just +5%)
I was thinking about using an Imperial or a Redguard, but as I wrote in my previous post, sustain on LA builds in the era of hybridisation is so easy that I just kept my Dunmer. Of course, one could choose a Nord and be tankier than any Oakensoul HA character who isn't a Nord.
I only had fifteen minutes, as I mentioned, so after changing all that I just killed one trial dummy. I didn't try too hard, as I wanted a sloppy rotation. Last time, when I posted my One-Skill Light-Attack God, where I tried to simulate a noob rotation, I was accused by one of our anti-HA contrarians that my weaving was too good (it really wasn't). Hence, I didn't worry too much about misses or weaving and still managed to get higher DPS than any HA build at first try.
For detailed results see the picture below.
Re. sustain, you will notice that my Magicka was over 75% and Stamina over 50% all of the time, no problems with sustain whatsoever.
The DPS I got was 107.5k. Since my best DPS to date was just slightly over 120k+, someone who is much better at rotations and weaving and can do 137k should be able to use this build to get around 118-120k.
So here you go, an easy-to-play and sustain two-bar LA build that is as tanky as any Oakensoul build but can avoid damage, block, interrupt, and move much quicker than HA builds. Considering that the highest HA DPS in the world on the trial dummy logged on ESO Logs is 100.6k (see Dobry Magista), that means that with a slightly modified LA meta, you can be as tanky as any Oakensoul user, never have any problems with sustain, and yet have from 7% (my 107.5k) to 20% (a champion's 120k) higher DPS than the one outlier HA build that all anti-HA critics rage about (namely, the Oakensoul Lightning Sorcerer with two pets and all six slots used for damage skills - by the way, this LA build uses just 7 skills so only one more than the HA sorc) — an outlier because most (especially non-Lightning) HA builds do incomparably less damage than this one outlier. Still, the outlier is much weaker than LA builds.
But yeah, let's nerf HA play style
You missed 2 light attack weaves to get 107K dps.
You practically had to have a perfect rotation to barely beat what a heavy attack build can do with a quarter of the effort.
Not only this but his parse was also almost pure single target, meele, with worse sustain and way lower defensive stats.
Just for sacrificing 5-7k DPS he could get way more AoE DPS, way better sustain, way better distance, way simplier and slower rotation and way more defensive stats.
Parse I posted few pages earlier had simple, slow and static one bar HA rotation with 100k single target plus 70% of it being AoE dmg, with unlimited sustain, 32k HP, over 27k resistances and minor aegis+protection. That's not even a competition.1 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »
Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705Recap of Anti-HA Rhetoric
Yesterday, I had fifteen free minutes and decided I would demonstrate that what I wrote (see: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705 ) in my earlier post was just facts, plain and simple, not mere speculations as we so often see from the anti-HA/Oakensoul camp. I wanted to show that it's possible to make any two-bar light-attack build just as tanky as any Oakensoul build and also incredibly easy to sustain. And, even with these modifications, the build would still outperform any Oakensoul heavy-attack build in terms of DPS.
I use the word "demonstrate" above instead of "test" because I've done this multiple times for myself and my friends over the years. So, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to ESO. I'm not surprised that many mid-tier players who dislike heavy-attack or Oakensoul builds don't believe me. They often haven't learned the game well enough yet. If they did, they would be dealing 120k+ DPS in real content and wouldn't be struggling to compete with weaker heavy-attack and Oakensoul builds. It does not help that so many of them just copy the meta builds (often without even understanding why these builds were designed the way they were) and then get frustrated that they are not there yet.
I've noticed that many anti-HA players struggle with both DPS and survival. This is why they often get triggered when they see others easily cruising through content with their HA builds. But, I believe that if they practice more and learn more about the game, they'll catch up and lose interest in nerfing HA builds. This is how it works, and I've never met a friend at my level or higher who wants to nerf HA or Oakensoul. We enjoy having players with different builds around and we love chilling on HA builds too.
But I digress. So I implemented just a few of the small changes I mentioned in my previous post:
- slapped Prismatic Defense on all body pieces
- switched a glyph on one jewellery piece from Increase Physical/Magical Harm to Reduce Feat Cost
- instead of using parse food, I used food which also increases max health
- I slapped Flare on both bars to get +10% damage mitigation (better than Oakensoul's Minor Aegis which is just +5%)
I was thinking about using an Imperial or a Redguard, but as I wrote in my previous post, sustain on LA builds in the era of hybridisation is so easy that I just kept my Dunmer. Of course, one could choose a Nord and be tankier than any Oakensoul HA character who isn't a Nord.
I only had fifteen minutes, as I mentioned, so after changing all that I just killed one trial dummy. I didn't try too hard, as I wanted a sloppy rotation. Last time, when I posted my One-Skill Light-Attack God, where I tried to simulate a noob rotation, I was accused by one of our anti-HA contrarians that my weaving was too good (it really wasn't). Hence, I didn't worry too much about misses or weaving and still managed to get higher DPS than any HA build at first try.
For detailed results see the picture below.
Re. sustain, you will notice that my Magicka was over 75% and Stamina over 50% all of the time, no problems with sustain whatsoever.
The DPS I got was 107.5k. Since my best DPS to date was just slightly over 120k+, someone who is much better at rotations and weaving and can do 137k should be able to use this build to get around 118-120k.
So here you go, an easy-to-play and sustain two-bar LA build that is as tanky as any Oakensoul build but can avoid damage, block, interrupt, and move much quicker than HA builds. Considering that the highest HA DPS in the world on the trial dummy logged on ESO Logs is 100.6k (see Dobry Magista), that means that with a slightly modified LA meta, you can be as tanky as any Oakensoul user, never have any problems with sustain, and yet have from 7% (my 107.5k) to 20% (a champion's 120k) higher DPS than the one outlier HA build that all anti-HA critics rage about (namely, the Oakensoul Lightning Sorcerer with two pets and all six slots used for damage skills - by the way, this LA build uses just 7 skills so only one more than the HA sorc) — an outlier because most (especially non-Lightning) HA builds do incomparably less damage than this one outlier. Still, the outlier is much weaker than LA builds.
But yeah, let's nerf HA play style
You missed 2 light attack weaves to get 107K dps.
You practically had to have a perfect rotation to barely beat what a heavy attack build can do with a quarter of the effort.
Exactly he’s a skilled player and most of those getting the high end numbers with HA are super skilled players such as this. Those sucking wind getting 15-20k with a 2 bar la set up are getting between 28-35 k dps on a 3 mil.
Again this only seems to hurt the the low end and mid end players this is where the problem lies and the average dps of the game is prob around 8-15k so all those players finally got a boost to 25k and can hop on some more content they couldn’t before. That’s all it hurts.
IDK how many times this has to be said, but this skilled/vs unskilled argument is disingenuous.
I am by far not overly skilled at rotations. May max parse on a fully optimized trial DPS setup is like 75K. My max parse on my solo build is 57K. My max parse on an oaken build is 97K, or nearly 2x that of my solo build, and still 20K more than my absolute best parse on a two bar trial build. Even with ONLY having pets alive and heavy attacking, so just holding down the right trigger for the entire parse and doing nothing else, the build does 80K. That is more than 20K more than my solo build, and still outparses the best parse I have ever done on an optimized trial setup.
It is by far easier to use a oaken heavy attack setup than any two bar setup. Skill has nothing to do with it, a piece of tape could hit 80K on the build.
And again, I think they are fine, and I think they will also be fine with the slight nerf they are getting, and I still think they would be fine with an even large nerf. Oaken heavy attack builds could do 60K DPS and STILL be viable for all but trifecta content.
Make a video of you with a piece of tape.
A lot of the nerf callers make claims but never back them up. Which is disingenuous.
60k is not “viable” for hardcore end game. That is my current trial dummy parse number pre nerf.
Video like that have already been posted and You've seen it.0 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705Recap of Anti-HA Rhetoric
Yesterday, I had fifteen free minutes and decided I would demonstrate that what I wrote (see: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705 ) in my earlier post was just facts, plain and simple, not mere speculations as we so often see from the anti-HA/Oakensoul camp. I wanted to show that it's possible to make any two-bar light-attack build just as tanky as any Oakensoul build and also incredibly easy to sustain. And, even with these modifications, the build would still outperform any Oakensoul heavy-attack build in terms of DPS.
I use the word "demonstrate" above instead of "test" because I've done this multiple times for myself and my friends over the years. So, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to ESO. I'm not surprised that many mid-tier players who dislike heavy-attack or Oakensoul builds don't believe me. They often haven't learned the game well enough yet. If they did, they would be dealing 120k+ DPS in real content and wouldn't be struggling to compete with weaker heavy-attack and Oakensoul builds. It does not help that so many of them just copy the meta builds (often without even understanding why these builds were designed the way they were) and then get frustrated that they are not there yet.
I've noticed that many anti-HA players struggle with both DPS and survival. This is why they often get triggered when they see others easily cruising through content with their HA builds. But, I believe that if they practice more and learn more about the game, they'll catch up and lose interest in nerfing HA builds. This is how it works, and I've never met a friend at my level or higher who wants to nerf HA or Oakensoul. We enjoy having players with different builds around and we love chilling on HA builds too.
But I digress. So I implemented just a few of the small changes I mentioned in my previous post:
- slapped Prismatic Defense on all body pieces
- switched a glyph on one jewellery piece from Increase Physical/Magical Harm to Reduce Feat Cost
- instead of using parse food, I used food which also increases max health
- I slapped Flare on both bars to get +10% damage mitigation (better than Oakensoul's Minor Aegis which is just +5%)
I was thinking about using an Imperial or a Redguard, but as I wrote in my previous post, sustain on LA builds in the era of hybridisation is so easy that I just kept my Dunmer. Of course, one could choose a Nord and be tankier than any Oakensoul HA character who isn't a Nord.
I only had fifteen minutes, as I mentioned, so after changing all that I just killed one trial dummy. I didn't try too hard, as I wanted a sloppy rotation. Last time, when I posted my One-Skill Light-Attack God, where I tried to simulate a noob rotation, I was accused by one of our anti-HA contrarians that my weaving was too good (it really wasn't). Hence, I didn't worry too much about misses or weaving and still managed to get higher DPS than any HA build at first try.
For detailed results see the picture below.
Re. sustain, you will notice that my Magicka was over 75% and Stamina over 50% all of the time, no problems with sustain whatsoever.
The DPS I got was 107.5k. Since my best DPS to date was just slightly over 120k+, someone who is much better at rotations and weaving and can do 137k should be able to use this build to get around 118-120k.
So here you go, an easy-to-play and sustain two-bar LA build that is as tanky as any Oakensoul build but can avoid damage, block, interrupt, and move much quicker than HA builds. Considering that the highest HA DPS in the world on the trial dummy logged on ESO Logs is 100.6k (see Dobry Magista), that means that with a slightly modified LA meta, you can be as tanky as any Oakensoul user, never have any problems with sustain, and yet have from 7% (my 107.5k) to 20% (a champion's 120k) higher DPS than the one outlier HA build that all anti-HA critics rage about (namely, the Oakensoul Lightning Sorcerer with two pets and all six slots used for damage skills - by the way, this LA build uses just 7 skills so only one more than the HA sorc). Why an outlier? Because most (especially non-Lightning) HA builds do incomparably less damage than the Oakensoul Lightning Sorcerer with two pets. Still, even this HA outlier is much weaker than LA builds.
But yeah, let's nerf HA play style
This post should win a gold medal and I hope @ZOS_Kevin and others pass this type of feedback along to the team.6 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭isadoraisacat wrote: »60k is not “viable” for hardcore end game. That is my current trial dummy parse number pre nerf.
On my server, it won't even get you into Craglorn score pushes let alone harder content. I've seen TONS of 75k-80k minimum requirements for those. 60k puts you firmly in the "too good for normal to be engaging" not good enough to be invited to anything hard in vet crowd that this nerf is somehow supposed to help.Edited by spartaxoxo on May 12, 2023 12:25AM5 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭
OFC, they should balance all classes and races equally. However, HA builds should have less DPS than LA builds.No it's not. That "excuse" is used by a minority of people who are against HA playstyle but of course it's repeated often by people who are defending them to discredit all people who have anything negative to say about HA setups.
Main argument is that HA setups offer simply too much for too little which makes them dominant in low. medium and some parts of end game. That's it, carry runs have nothing to do with it
And still there is no justification to bring up carry runs as any reasonable counterargument. Your argumentation for that makes no sense. Carry runs sound just like another escape goat arguemnt to defend HA setups.
Once again I will ask. Because carry runs exist should developer stop balancing the game?
- To balance the game, all classes should have an equal chance to be the best DPS, and not just allow DKs to remain the best.
- Balancing the game also means allowing LA builds to have higher DPS than HA builds. But if we compare a skilled HA player to someone with a poor rotation in a two-bar setup, that's not balance.
- True balance means comparing a skilled HA player to a skilled two-bar player and LA will have much more DPS.
[Snip]
You still didn't answer my question.
True balance where every class and race is equall doesn't exist and is impossible to achieve.
All classes cannot have the same DPS because DPS varies in different situations and You cannot make all classes excatly the same in every scenario. DK is the best example. It's not the best single target DD it's just a class that can keep the best ratio of single target to AoE DPS.
DPS is not the only thing that matters in balancing DD role. How You are achieving that DPS also matters.
Even if some pople would behave like You described I don't see what does it really change. How is opinion of some carry runners changing anything? Selling runs have really nothing to do with nerf to HA unless You want to tell me that those carry runners have bribed ZoS with their ingame gold.
I will ask once again. Because carry runs exist should developer stop balancing the game?
[Edited quote]
Balancing is arbitrary.
Should HASorc get a nerf, buff, stay the same?
It was lol depends on perspective.
Perhaps HASorcs are perfectly balanced for the effort they take.
Maybe light attack weaving produces too much dps for effort they take.
In the end it doesn’t matter because the two styles are not competing against each other.
HASorcs are at best mid range dps.
LA weaving can well eclipse it with that combat style.
You might as well be saying a family sedan has too high a top speed for the amount of effort they take to drive, when compared to a nascar vehicle.
So you want to make the lives of everyone who drives family cars a bit more miserable? Is that the aim here?
In the end, all this nerf does is increase the delta between low end (20k dps players are using builds like this too!) and high end players. And last time zos said that it was too wide a gap they nerfed high end dps. (Remember that? Wasn’t that fun times?)
And we all want to team up with lower dps players in dungeon finder, that is always welcome. Right?
And less people capable of running vet content would definitely encourage zos to make more of it.
No it's not arbitrary. Tnings do not exist in a vacuum.
Yes these two setups are cometing against each other. Fact that it's not happening in top end raids doesn't mean it's not happening at all. With the introduction of one bar HA setups the usefulness of LA setups dropped down drastically.
I wouldn't say HA sorcs are the best mid game setup. One bar HA setups in general are the best option for low, mid and some part of end game with sorc and warden being slightly above rest of the classes.
Fact that LA weaving can eclipse them doesn't mean it will for majority of players. It can only do this if someone is at very high levels of prefficiency way higher than it's needed for HA weaving.
Do You know any family sedan owners who would be competing in nascar races with their sedan? Because this is what is currently happening with HA setups. It's actually even funnier than that. Nascar car owners are actually using their sedan cars to take part in nascar races because sedans feel more comfortable while still being able to qualify.
I don't want anything I am just saying why current situation when sedan car is becoming a default option for many races is not the best for overall state of racing industry.
In the end all it does is just putting the max DPS possible to achieve by HA setup at more balanced place when we take under consideration other benefits that HA setups have and LA setups don't. Every setup wheter it's used in low, mid or end game is not free from a balance decisions.
No things don’t exist in a vacuum.
The vast majority of players are not switching over to two bar la weave combat with this nerf.
Those people pumping out lower dps? You have to deal with them.
Those threads about “fake dps” on these forums? That will be exacerbated.
Zos will see less engagement in vet content. Well great, hopefully they will put more effort into where the majority are spending their time. “Easy” overland content. I personally would welcome it and that is not sarcasm. (Just fyi I have completed vMoL on a stam bow non sorc.)
All because some people feel other people that they know nothing about are not putting the work in?
These “family sedan” drivers are not competing against the nascar crowd, they honestly don’t want to. And they don’t care about how fast nascars can go either.
They just want to enjoy the drive. Feel good about themselves after a long day.
And that is being lessened because someone else feels they don’t deserve it?
If ha is honestly competing against la weave players, those la weavers need to step up their game or switch over to a ha setup. It’s not the ha players fault that la weavers can’t pull off those numbers that they should be doing.
So a person who is good at ha is competing against someone who is bad at la. Well obviously it’s the ha player who is at fault. Maybe just ask the ha player to slow down their dps?
Or maybe we can punish players who are not even doing vet content. Yeah let’s target those players.
really disingenuous.
Being good at HA weaving requires way less skill and practice than being average at LA weaving. People who are average at HA weaving can now compete with people who are above the average at light attack weaving. LA weaving have way bigger learning curve. On a HA setup when properly geared You are reaching 80-90% of this setup's max DPS with a little to none practice on a LA setup You need to work long and hard to get to this threshold.
People who are not doing vet content will be the least "punished". DPS requirement in overland, quests and normal modes is way below of what is possible to achieve by default.
There are in fact only 2 real skills required for end game raiding in any mmo.
Ability to get along with others, under pressure.
Situational awareness.
Thing is one bar HA setup is under way less pressure than regular two bar LA setup. Sometimes the difference is ridicolous.
You also need way less situational awerness as one bar HA player. Defense of this setup allows You to face tank certain mechanics that would kill LA player or You can react way slower because Your base defense allows You to eat dmg for longer period of time. You also need to care less because You hvae simplier rotation with less abilities to monitor, with unlimited sustain, 100% uptimes on many crucial buffs, high distance and high AoE.
You are not getting better at working under pressure or at situational awerness when You put on oakensoul HA setup. You are just using setup that noticably lowers these two skill requirements.Edited by Galeriano on May 12, 2023 12:30AM5 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705Recap of Anti-HA Rhetoric
Yesterday, I had fifteen free minutes and decided I would demonstrate that what I wrote (see: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705 ) in my earlier post was just facts, plain and simple, not mere speculations as we so often see from the anti-HA/Oakensoul camp. I wanted to show that it's possible to make any two-bar light-attack build just as tanky as any Oakensoul build and also incredibly easy to sustain. And, even with these modifications, the build would still outperform any Oakensoul heavy-attack build in terms of DPS.
I use the word "demonstrate" above instead of "test" because I've done this multiple times for myself and my friends over the years. So, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to ESO. I'm not surprised that many mid-tier players who dislike heavy-attack or Oakensoul builds don't believe me. They often haven't learned the game well enough yet. If they did, they would be dealing 120k+ DPS in real content and wouldn't be struggling to compete with weaker heavy-attack and Oakensoul builds. It does not help that so many of them just copy the meta builds (often without even understanding why these builds were designed the way they were) and then get frustrated that they are not there yet.
I've noticed that many anti-HA players struggle with both DPS and survival. This is why they often get triggered when they see others easily cruising through content with their HA builds. But, I believe that if they practice more and learn more about the game, they'll catch up and lose interest in nerfing HA builds. This is how it works, and I've never met a friend at my level or higher who wants to nerf HA or Oakensoul. We enjoy having players with different builds around and we love chilling on HA builds too.
But I digress. So I implemented just a few of the small changes I mentioned in my previous post:
- slapped Prismatic Defense on all body pieces
- switched a glyph on one jewellery piece from Increase Physical/Magical Harm to Reduce Feat Cost
- instead of using parse food, I used food which also increases max health
- I slapped Flare on both bars to get +10% damage mitigation (better than Oakensoul's Minor Aegis which is just +5%)
I was thinking about using an Imperial or a Redguard, but as I wrote in my previous post, sustain on LA builds in the era of hybridisation is so easy that I just kept my Dunmer. Of course, one could choose a Nord and be tankier than any Oakensoul HA character who isn't a Nord.
I only had fifteen minutes, as I mentioned, so after changing all that I just killed one trial dummy. I didn't try too hard, as I wanted a sloppy rotation. Last time, when I posted my One-Skill Light-Attack God, where I tried to simulate a noob rotation, I was accused by one of our anti-HA contrarians that my weaving was too good (it really wasn't). Hence, I didn't worry too much about misses or weaving and still managed to get higher DPS than any HA build at first try.
For detailed results see the picture below.
Re. sustain, you will notice that my Magicka was over 75% and Stamina over 50% all of the time, no problems with sustain whatsoever.
The DPS I got was 107.5k. Since my best DPS to date was just slightly over 120k+, someone who is much better at rotations and weaving and can do 137k should be able to use this build to get around 118-120k.
So here you go, an easy-to-play and sustain two-bar LA build that is as tanky as any Oakensoul build but can avoid damage, block, interrupt, and move much quicker than HA builds. Considering that the highest HA DPS in the world on the trial dummy logged on ESO Logs is 100.6k (see Dobry Magista), that means that with a slightly modified LA meta, you can be as tanky as any Oakensoul user, never have any problems with sustain, and yet have from 7% (my 107.5k) to 20% (a champion's 120k) higher DPS than the one outlier HA build that all anti-HA critics rage about (namely, the Oakensoul Lightning Sorcerer with two pets and all six slots used for damage skills - by the way, this LA build uses just 7 skills so only one more than the HA sorc) — an outlier because most (especially non-Lightning) HA builds do incomparably less damage than this one outlier. Still, the outlier is much weaker than LA builds.
But yeah, let's nerf HA play style
You missed 2 light attack weaves to get 107K dps.
You practically had to have a perfect rotation to barely beat what a heavy attack build can do with a quarter of the effort.
I believe that was the point. An IMPERFECT weave not optimized for dps STILL out damaged what the absolute very BEST of the HA is capable of.
Even top parses are having an imperfect weave. I've seen parses doing around 135k and still having around 10 light attacks missed. Perfect weaving is not achieved by having 1:1 ratio of light attacks to abilities.
That 107k parse is still worse than 100k on one bar HA setup. It's 107k meele single target with only 15-20% of it being an ,with 28k HP and 13k resistances. And it still needed decent levels of LA weaving. I had a one bar HA setup parse where I did 100k single target with 70% of it being AoE where I had way simplier weaving to perform, simple slow and static rotation, better sustain, I was able to fight from distance, I had 32k HP and 27k resistances.
So only thing that this 107k parse achieved was winning a bit in single target DPS departament while noticably loosing in every other departament which in real trial would make one bar HA setup an obvious winner leaving this second setup far behind. Sorry but little bit more of single target dummy DPS won't cut it when You are worse at literally everything else. If that would be the case than sorc would be a meta right now not DK.9 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭spartaxoxo wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »60k is not “viable” for hardcore end game. That is my current trial dummy parse number pre nerf.
On my server, it won't even get you into Craglorn score pushes let alone harder content. I've seen TONS of 75k-80k minimum requirements for those. 60k puts you firmly in the "too good for normal to be engaging" not good enough to be invited to anything hard in vet crowd that this nerf is somehow supposed to help.
Of course it won't get him into score pushing teams. Why should it? People with unoptimised setups and lack of basics should be invited into scorepushing teams or harder content now? What would even "harder content" mean at that point? A content where You need to wear some sets? Because this is what You need to get 60k on a trial dummy.
[snip]
[Edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Phoenix on May 12, 2023 2:54AM1 -
Lumenn✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705Recap of Anti-HA Rhetoric
Yesterday, I had fifteen free minutes and decided I would demonstrate that what I wrote (see: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705 ) in my earlier post was just facts, plain and simple, not mere speculations as we so often see from the anti-HA/Oakensoul camp. I wanted to show that it's possible to make any two-bar light-attack build just as tanky as any Oakensoul build and also incredibly easy to sustain. And, even with these modifications, the build would still outperform any Oakensoul heavy-attack build in terms of DPS.
I use the word "demonstrate" above instead of "test" because I've done this multiple times for myself and my friends over the years. So, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to ESO. I'm not surprised that many mid-tier players who dislike heavy-attack or Oakensoul builds don't believe me. They often haven't learned the game well enough yet. If they did, they would be dealing 120k+ DPS in real content and wouldn't be struggling to compete with weaker heavy-attack and Oakensoul builds. It does not help that so many of them just copy the meta builds (often without even understanding why these builds were designed the way they were) and then get frustrated that they are not there yet.
I've noticed that many anti-HA players struggle with both DPS and survival. This is why they often get triggered when they see others easily cruising through content with their HA builds. But, I believe that if they practice more and learn more about the game, they'll catch up and lose interest in nerfing HA builds. This is how it works, and I've never met a friend at my level or higher who wants to nerf HA or Oakensoul. We enjoy having players with different builds around and we love chilling on HA builds too.
But I digress. So I implemented just a few of the small changes I mentioned in my previous post:
- slapped Prismatic Defense on all body pieces
- switched a glyph on one jewellery piece from Increase Physical/Magical Harm to Reduce Feat Cost
- instead of using parse food, I used food which also increases max health
- I slapped Flare on both bars to get +10% damage mitigation (better than Oakensoul's Minor Aegis which is just +5%)
I was thinking about using an Imperial or a Redguard, but as I wrote in my previous post, sustain on LA builds in the era of hybridisation is so easy that I just kept my Dunmer. Of course, one could choose a Nord and be tankier than any Oakensoul HA character who isn't a Nord.
I only had fifteen minutes, as I mentioned, so after changing all that I just killed one trial dummy. I didn't try too hard, as I wanted a sloppy rotation. Last time, when I posted my One-Skill Light-Attack God, where I tried to simulate a noob rotation, I was accused by one of our anti-HA contrarians that my weaving was too good (it really wasn't). Hence, I didn't worry too much about misses or weaving and still managed to get higher DPS than any HA build at first try.
For detailed results see the picture below.
Re. sustain, you will notice that my Magicka was over 75% and Stamina over 50% all of the time, no problems with sustain whatsoever.
The DPS I got was 107.5k. Since my best DPS to date was just slightly over 120k+, someone who is much better at rotations and weaving and can do 137k should be able to use this build to get around 118-120k.
So here you go, an easy-to-play and sustain two-bar LA build that is as tanky as any Oakensoul build but can avoid damage, block, interrupt, and move much quicker than HA builds. Considering that the highest HA DPS in the world on the trial dummy logged on ESO Logs is 100.6k (see Dobry Magista), that means that with a slightly modified LA meta, you can be as tanky as any Oakensoul user, never have any problems with sustain, and yet have from 7% (my 107.5k) to 20% (a champion's 120k) higher DPS than the one outlier HA build that all anti-HA critics rage about (namely, the Oakensoul Lightning Sorcerer with two pets and all six slots used for damage skills - by the way, this LA build uses just 7 skills so only one more than the HA sorc) — an outlier because most (especially non-Lightning) HA builds do incomparably less damage than this one outlier. Still, the outlier is much weaker than LA builds.
But yeah, let's nerf HA play style
You missed 2 light attack weaves to get 107K dps.
You practically had to have a perfect rotation to barely beat what a heavy attack build can do with a quarter of the effort.
I believe that was the point. An IMPERFECT weave not optimized for dps STILL out damaged what the absolute very BEST of the HA is capable of.
Even top parses are having an imperfect weave. I've seen parses doing around 135k and still having around 10 light attacks missed. Perfect weaving is not achieved by having 1:1 ratio of light attacks to abilities.
That 107k parse is still worse than 100k on one bar HA setup. It's 107k meele single target with only 15-20% of it being an ,with 28k HP and 13k resistances. And it still needed decent levels of LA weaving. I had a one bar HA setup parse where I did 100k single target with 70% of it being AoE where I had way simplier weaving to perform, simple slow and static rotation, better sustain, I was able to fight from distance, I had 32k HP and 27k resistances.
So only thing that this 107k parse achieved was winning a bit in single target DPS departament while noticably loosing in every other departament which in real trial would make one bar HA setup an obvious winner leaving this second setup far behind. Sorry but little bit more of single target dummy DPS won't cut it when You are worse at literally everything else. If that would be the case than sorc would be a meta right now not DK.
Which, once again, changes absolutely nothing in what I posted, that an imperfect weave not optimized for dps STILL out damaged what the absolute very BEST of the HA is capable of.6 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705Recap of Anti-HA Rhetoric
Yesterday, I had fifteen free minutes and decided I would demonstrate that what I wrote (see: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705 ) in my earlier post was just facts, plain and simple, not mere speculations as we so often see from the anti-HA/Oakensoul camp. I wanted to show that it's possible to make any two-bar light-attack build just as tanky as any Oakensoul build and also incredibly easy to sustain. And, even with these modifications, the build would still outperform any Oakensoul heavy-attack build in terms of DPS.
I use the word "demonstrate" above instead of "test" because I've done this multiple times for myself and my friends over the years. So, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to ESO. I'm not surprised that many mid-tier players who dislike heavy-attack or Oakensoul builds don't believe me. They often haven't learned the game well enough yet. If they did, they would be dealing 120k+ DPS in real content and wouldn't be struggling to compete with weaker heavy-attack and Oakensoul builds. It does not help that so many of them just copy the meta builds (often without even understanding why these builds were designed the way they were) and then get frustrated that they are not there yet.
I've noticed that many anti-HA players struggle with both DPS and survival. This is why they often get triggered when they see others easily cruising through content with their HA builds. But, I believe that if they practice more and learn more about the game, they'll catch up and lose interest in nerfing HA builds. This is how it works, and I've never met a friend at my level or higher who wants to nerf HA or Oakensoul. We enjoy having players with different builds around and we love chilling on HA builds too.
But I digress. So I implemented just a few of the small changes I mentioned in my previous post:
- slapped Prismatic Defense on all body pieces
- switched a glyph on one jewellery piece from Increase Physical/Magical Harm to Reduce Feat Cost
- instead of using parse food, I used food which also increases max health
- I slapped Flare on both bars to get +10% damage mitigation (better than Oakensoul's Minor Aegis which is just +5%)
I was thinking about using an Imperial or a Redguard, but as I wrote in my previous post, sustain on LA builds in the era of hybridisation is so easy that I just kept my Dunmer. Of course, one could choose a Nord and be tankier than any Oakensoul HA character who isn't a Nord.
I only had fifteen minutes, as I mentioned, so after changing all that I just killed one trial dummy. I didn't try too hard, as I wanted a sloppy rotation. Last time, when I posted my One-Skill Light-Attack God, where I tried to simulate a noob rotation, I was accused by one of our anti-HA contrarians that my weaving was too good (it really wasn't). Hence, I didn't worry too much about misses or weaving and still managed to get higher DPS than any HA build at first try.
For detailed results see the picture below.
Re. sustain, you will notice that my Magicka was over 75% and Stamina over 50% all of the time, no problems with sustain whatsoever.
The DPS I got was 107.5k. Since my best DPS to date was just slightly over 120k+, someone who is much better at rotations and weaving and can do 137k should be able to use this build to get around 118-120k.
So here you go, an easy-to-play and sustain two-bar LA build that is as tanky as any Oakensoul build but can avoid damage, block, interrupt, and move much quicker than HA builds. Considering that the highest HA DPS in the world on the trial dummy logged on ESO Logs is 100.6k (see Dobry Magista), that means that with a slightly modified LA meta, you can be as tanky as any Oakensoul user, never have any problems with sustain, and yet have from 7% (my 107.5k) to 20% (a champion's 120k) higher DPS than the one outlier HA build that all anti-HA critics rage about (namely, the Oakensoul Lightning Sorcerer with two pets and all six slots used for damage skills - by the way, this LA build uses just 7 skills so only one more than the HA sorc) — an outlier because most (especially non-Lightning) HA builds do incomparably less damage than this one outlier. Still, the outlier is much weaker than LA builds.
But yeah, let's nerf HA play style
You missed 2 light attack weaves to get 107K dps.
You practically had to have a perfect rotation to barely beat what a heavy attack build can do with a quarter of the effort.
I believe that was the point. An IMPERFECT weave not optimized for dps STILL out damaged what the absolute very BEST of the HA is capable of.
Even top parses are having an imperfect weave. I've seen parses doing around 135k and still having around 10 light attacks missed. Perfect weaving is not achieved by having 1:1 ratio of light attacks to abilities.
That 107k parse is still worse than 100k on one bar HA setup. It's 107k meele single target with only 15-20% of it being an ,with 28k HP and 13k resistances. And it still needed decent levels of LA weaving. I had a one bar HA setup parse where I did 100k single target with 70% of it being AoE where I had way simplier weaving to perform, simple slow and static rotation, better sustain, I was able to fight from distance, I had 32k HP and 27k resistances.
So only thing that this 107k parse achieved was winning a bit in single target DPS departament while noticably loosing in every other departament which in real trial would make one bar HA setup an obvious winner leaving this second setup far behind. Sorry but little bit more of single target dummy DPS won't cut it when You are worse at literally everything else. If that would be the case than sorc would be a meta right now not DK.
Which, once again, changes absolutely nothing in what I posted, that an imperfect weave not optimized for dps STILL out damaged what the absolute very BEST of the HA is capable of.
Which once again changes absolutely nothing in what I posted because at the end of the day slightly higher single target output for the cost of noticably sacrificing everything else is really nothing to boast about.
Also it didn't "out damaged what the absolute very BEST of the HA is capable of". It just outdamaged what one bar HA builds are capable of. Two bar HA setups can pull close to 110k best one bar HA setup can pull around 103-105k.
So yeah harder rotation, meele, single target, low AoE, low survivability, lower sustain, being more reliant on group, being less versatile in real content, all of it just to get around 5% more single target DPS on a dummy. What a great trade-off.
Your argument about imperfect weave is also pretty silly. 12 missed light attacks within 178 skill casts is less than 1k DPS loss basically a margin of mistake. You seem to completly not understand how light attack weaving and weaving in general works. Mathematically You could miss even 50 more light attacks in that 107k parse heck You could even miss half of the light attack casts and still end up above 100k which going by Your logic means that right now almost every light attack user, even with a little to no skill and practice should be outparsing HA setups easily. Somehow that's not the case.Edited by Galeriano on May 12, 2023 12:06PM6 -
loveeso✭✭✭✭Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7869559#Comment_7869559Stop the HA Hate: How Actual Fight Data Shows the Truth About Playstyle Balance
or
Don't Nerf, Just Improve Your LA Skills to Win
Well, well, well, guys, look at this one picture here. It's as if the data below is screaming "DUH!" so loudly, I'm surprised any player wouldn't hear it from a mile away. If anyone still has any doubts after looking at this, they might as well argue that the sky is yellow and water is dry
Next post: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7870658/#Comment_7870658 - For the sake of convenience, the complete citation is provided below:Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7869559#Comment_7869559Stop the HA Hate: How Actual Fight Data Shows the Truth About Playstyle Balance
or
Don't Nerf, Just Improve Your LA Skills to Win
Well, well, well, guys, look at this one picture here. It's as if the data below is screaming "DUH!" so loudly, I'm surprised any player wouldn't hear it from a mile away. If anyone still has any doubts after looking at this, they might as well argue that the sky is yellow and water is dry
This is really bad interpretation of data. One, there is no citation of the source of every fight. DPS is in a time domain, so fight time matters a lot. Are these parses in the same fight? Or did you take the highest two-bar DPS parse and the highest one-bar parse? The only way to compare two-bar and one-bar DPS is to compare two players in the same fight performing the same role. Fight time here is the most important factor as in shorter fights you do more damage as uptimes will average higher and hard hitting skills like your ultimate will have higher "uptime" as it will be running for more of the fight, any other comparison method is cherry-picking and is a disingenuous misrepresentation of data. You don't compare two race cars driving on two different days to decide a championship.
After a careful review of the reply, it is evident that it is replete with numerous erroneous claims and misunderstandings about data analysis.
First of all, the source of the data is provided and easily identifiable. This means that anyone can go and check the database to verify the data. Moreover, the report does not cherry-pick data; rather, it presents the highest achieved DPS in the world for each boss fight for both playstyles.
Secondly, since, again, as clearly stated, it compares the world-best DPS achieved by each playstyle player in each boss fight, the specific fight times and contexts are irrelevant to the comparison of the playstyles, as each playstyle is being evaluated based on their overall performance across multiple fights.
Thirdly, the critique goes on to suggest that the only way to compare one-bar and two-bar DPS is to compare two players in the same fight performing the same role. This assertion is flawed because it is possible to compare DPS metrics across different fights. In fact, comparing metrics like DPS across multiple events (fights) is a common practice in many statistical analyses.
Fourthly, the claim that fight time is the most important factor when comparing one-bar and two-bar DPS is a gross oversimplification. While fight time is undoubtedly an important factor to consider, there are several other variables that must be controlled for, such as the player's gear, build, skill rotation, and boss mechanics. Ignoring these other variables could lead to biased or erroneous conclusions. Fortunately, we are protected from errors like this by choosing an aggregated statistic such as the top DPS per playstyle which factors in all relevant factors. DPS takes into account not only the duration of the fight but also the damage output achieved during that time, as well as the many other factors that contribute to a player's or group's performance in a boss fight. By using DPS as a comparative metric, we are able to consider all of these relevant factors together in a single measure, which helps to reduce the impact of individual variations or outliers. This makes it easier to draw meaningful and accurate conclusions about the relative effectiveness of different playstyles, gear, builds, skill rotations, and boss mechanics, without being misled by oversimplified or incomplete analyses.
Fifthly, your statement contains an erroneous assumption that the uptimes of skills and ultimates are always inversely proportional to the length of the boss fight. This assumption is false, as demonstrated by the example of continuously casting Wall of Elements for 100% uptime during both a 35-second and a one-hour-long fight. Similarly, your assertion about Ultimates is not universally true, as demonstrated by the possibility of a lower uptime for the same ultimate in a 55-second fight compared to a 70-second fight.
Moreover, your attempting to challenge the notion that LADDs are already significantly more powerful than HADDs this way is quite amusing, as it actually reinforces my argument that groups comprised of LADDs inflict substantially more damage than those composed of HADDs. Your argument suggests that LADDs may not have as high of a DPS as the data indicates, due to their ability to complete fights more quickly. However, this is precisely why groups consisting of LADDs are able to inflict more damage than those comprised of HADDs. This is because DPS is a function of time, and shorter durations correspond to higher DPS.
Lastly, the analogy of comparing two race cars driving on two different days to decide a championship is irrelevant and misleading. Comparing one-bar and two-bar DPS is not analogous to comparing two different races on different days. A better analogy would be comparing the lap times of two different race cars on the same track, with the same weather conditions. Fortunately for us, the weather is always the same in boss fights.
In conclusion, the report's interpretation of the data is not flawed, as the report uses a valid methodology to compare the world-best DPS achieved by each playstyle player in each boss fight. Your critique's assertions that the source of every fight needs citation, fight time matters more, and comparing two race cars is a better analogy are not valid.
It is essential to approach data analysis with rigor and objectivity and avoid making unfounded assertions that could lead to erroneous conclusions.Edited by loveeso on May 13, 2023 1:33PMMMOs: ESO (PS & PC), GW2 (😍) & Souls/Elden (😍)7 -
loveeso✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »
This post should win a gold medal and I hope @ZOS_Kevin and others pass this type of feedback along to the team.
Hey, thanks for your awesome reply! Your words were like a warm hug on a cold day, and I really appreciate the support. If there was a medal for being an awesome forum user, you'd be on the podium for sure! I truly appreciate your support and I hope that Kevin and the team will take this feedback into consideration. Thanks again!
MMOs: ESO (PS & PC), GW2 (😍) & Souls/Elden (😍)1 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7869559#Comment_7869559Stop the HA Hate: How Actual Fight Data Shows the Truth About Playstyle Balance
or
Don't Nerf, Just Improve Your LA Skills to Win
Well, well, well, guys, look at this one picture here. It's as if the data below is screaming "DUH!" so loudly, I'm surprised any player wouldn't hear it from a mile away. If anyone still has any doubts after looking at this, they might as well argue that the sky is yellow and water is dry
It's impressive how much time some people will spend to make charts defending HA setups but at the end of the day is someone really thinking devs had no acces to this data and they couldn't or didn't check it for themselves when they decided to go with the nerf? They have acces to even more data than ESO logs and they still decided to nerf HA setups so it's clearly not differences in number 1 top scores that mattered to them the most, yet one of the main arguments that people use against HA nerf is still comparing HA setups to the best possible results of LA setups.
And I deliberaty dont say about comparing best possible results of HA setups to best possible results of LA setups because groups that are sitting at the highest top are not running with HA setups so we will never know what the best results possible for HA setups are. We will know at best what are the best possible results for groups that decided to give HA a chance and run with them for a while, without pushing themselves to the limits like scorepushing groups using LA are. Currently there is only handfull of HA groups doing highest end of the content and they stop their progress the moment they get the achievement they wanted they don't push for more. So it's basically comparing results of teams who got multiple trifectas in the same group composition and with similar setups to the groups that got one trifecta that way if they even decided to make logs public.
Nobody here is denying that LA setups produce way more DPS when used by top 0,1% of playerbase but it is not the only factor that needs to be taken under consideration when balancing HA setups. DPS of top 0,1% of players is not all that matters when it comes to completing harder content or balancing the game. Devs understand that, many players understands that, time for everyone to understand and accept that.Edited by Galeriano on May 12, 2023 12:03PM2 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7869559#Comment_7869559Stop the HA Hate: How Actual Fight Data Shows the Truth About Playstyle Balance
or
Don't Nerf, Just Improve Your LA Skills to Win
Well, well, well, guys, look at this one picture here. It's as if the data below is screaming "DUH!" so loudly, I'm surprised any player wouldn't hear it from a mile away. If anyone still has any doubts after looking at this, they might as well argue that the sky is yellow and water is dry
224k? 224K?!!!!! Seriously above 200k is possible???!!!!
(Yeah it’s a particular situation. But still… 224k…)
Ok. Combat is officially broken.
Zos, just scrap the whole thing. The entire combat system. All gear all abilities. Everything. It has the go.
Begin again. There is no saving this.5 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7869559#Comment_7869559Stop the HA Hate: How Actual Fight Data Shows the Truth About Playstyle Balance
or
Don't Nerf, Just Improve Your LA Skills to Win
Well, well, well, guys, look at this one picture here. It's as if the data below is screaming "DUH!" so loudly, I'm surprised any player wouldn't hear it from a mile away. If anyone still has any doubts after looking at this, they might as well argue that the sky is yellow and water is dry
224k? 224K?!!!!! Seriously above 200k is possible???!!!!
(Yeah it’s a particular situation. But still… 224k…)
Ok. Combat is officially broken.
Zos, just scrap the whole thing. The entire combat system. All gear all abilities. Everything. It has the go.
Begin again. There is no saving this.
There are even some bosses with over 300k. Top DPS on first boss in vHoF is nearing 400k. Over 200k was a thing years ago already. It's usually a multi target burns though performed by extremly small minority of highly skilled individuals who have been spending long hours on perfecting every detail of the fight and their rotation.
You can't stop people who are that good from being that good they will be always performing feats that seem insane from a casual player perspective. It's like comparing olympic records to average Joe PRs. You shouldn't be suprised there is a massive difference.
It's like saying that car industry should be scrapped because formula one cars are reaching too high speeds.Edited by Galeriano on May 12, 2023 1:47PM0 -
tmbrinks✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7869559#Comment_7869559Stop the HA Hate: How Actual Fight Data Shows the Truth About Playstyle Balance
or
Don't Nerf, Just Improve Your LA Skills to Win
Well, well, well, guys, look at this one picture here. It's as if the data below is screaming "DUH!" so loudly, I'm surprised any player wouldn't hear it from a mile away. If anyone still has any doubts after looking at this, they might as well argue that the sky is yellow and water is dry
"takes account of all relevant factors"... Those LA builds are glass cannon, minimal resistance, no death parses due to having top-tier supports providing major buffs in the game. The HA builds have all that tankiness and buffs built in.
It's as far from an "apples-to-apples" comparison as can be.
It should be obvious that a build that is specifically designed to do maximum damage at the expense of survivalness, and requires the use of external buffs from supports should outperform a build that has that tankiness and their own self buffs. Most of these "top LA" parses on bosses are ones where you can only wear a specific set for that specific boss, and only 1 in group can really do so, such as Azureblight or Plaguebreak.
It's also worth to note that those LA parses are only 8 DPS in the group, while HA builds can go with 10 or 11 in group due to their survivalness and self-buffs, so dividing all your numbers by 1.25 or 1.3 to account for having more damage dealers in the group brings them much more equal for total fight time per boss (other than for specific situations in specific gear, such as wearing Azureblight on 2nd boss KA, which only 1 person in a group can really do to get those extreme numbers).
So, in conclusion. HA builds are overperforming for the level of skill and risk that is taken in running the build. Thanks for the conclusive data!
Edit: Plaguebreak is interesting because it's getting just straight up deleted from PvE usage.. not a 3-5% nerf like HA builds... just straight up deleted. 100% nerf. So, you could argue that some of these "top LA" parses are getting an even larger nerf to their damage than the HA builds are.Edited by tmbrinks on May 12, 2023 2:14PMTenacious Dreamer - Hurricane Herald - Godslayer - Dawnbringer - Gryphon Heart - Tick Tock Tormenter - Immortal Redeemer - Dro-m'Athra DestroyerThe Unchained - Bedlam's Disciple - Temporal Tempest - Curator's Champion - Fist of Tava - Invader's Bane - Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy - Zero Regrets - Battlespire's Best - Bastion Breaker - Ardent Bibliophile - Subterranean Smasher - Bane of Thorns - True Genius - In Defiance of Death - No Rest for the Wicked - Nature's Wrath - Undying Endurance - Relentless Raider - Depths Defier - Apex Predator - Pure Lunacy - Mountain God - Leave No Bone Unbroken - CoS/RoM/BF/FH Challenger61,405 achievement points8 -
loveeso✭✭✭✭
224k? 224K?!!!!! Seriously above 200k is possible???!!!!
(Yeah it’s a particular situation. But still… 224k…)
Ok. Combat is officially broken.
Yes, indeed, it was 224k and it isn’t a peak value but the average DPS over the whole fight. The peak value was over half a million. That’s how OP LA builds are compared to HA in real content. Hence the race vs boring car analogy in my previous post. Breathing new life into HA playstyle was such a great and well thought-out move from Zenimax. Nothing stops people who are still learning how to drive their LA race cars from using a “boring” HA car in real content in the meantime, especially if they are unhappy with their DPS compared to other players. If they choose not to use HA, well, that’s their problem [snip]
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Icy on May 12, 2023 2:07PMMMOs: ESO (PS & PC), GW2 (😍) & Souls/Elden (😍)6 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »60k is not “viable” for hardcore end game. That is my current trial dummy parse number pre nerf.
On my server, it won't even get you into Craglorn score pushes let alone harder content. I've seen TONS of 75k-80k minimum requirements for those. 60k puts you firmly in the "too good for normal to be engaging" not good enough to be invited to anything hard in vet crowd that this nerf is somehow supposed to help.
Of course it won't get him into score pushing teams. Why should it? People with unoptimised setups and lack of basics should be invited into scorepushing teams or harder content now? What would even "harder content" mean at that point? A content where You need to wear some sets? Because this is what You need to get 60k on a trial dummy.
[snip]
[Edited for baiting]
They take 75k-80k into Craglorn score pushing. Which is also the lowest they will take for regular vet clears of all other trial content (they would not allow 75k into score pushing for any other set of trials but Craglorn is considered the easy vet trials). Some trials guilds that I have been in require you to go into a Crag score push run or HM first to prove you can handle dlc trials because the difficulty escalates noticeably for DLC. So that's your proof you can handle BEGINNING vet dlc trials.
If you're not good enough for that they will not accept you into anything else either.
So 75-80k is the bare minimum any vet build requires. And normal mode builds are useless and not needed. You can do normal mode content at level 45 with a random assortment of gear.
Any build below 75k-80k is completely useless for vet content. That is the bare minimum.Edited by spartaxoxo on May 12, 2023 3:45PM3 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭Personally, I feel that the HA meta should be nerfed to the point it isn't viable for trifectas or the hardest HMs, so players who want them still have some incentive to improve.
Otherwise there's literally no more progression in the game at all anymore.4 -
tmbrinks✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »
Any build below 75k-80k is completely useless for vet content. That is the bare minimum.
This is completely player driven. I remember clearing tons of veteran content when the maximum GROUP DPS was under 75k (for a 1T/2DD/1H comp).
A HA build is sufficient to clear ALL normal content, and ALL veteran content in U37, and will still be in U38. What it should not be doing is clearing veteran HM content getting no-death/HM/speedrun achievements... and it will still be able to do that in U38, since it's a less than 5% change in damage.Tenacious Dreamer - Hurricane Herald - Godslayer - Dawnbringer - Gryphon Heart - Tick Tock Tormenter - Immortal Redeemer - Dro-m'Athra DestroyerThe Unchained - Bedlam's Disciple - Temporal Tempest - Curator's Champion - Fist of Tava - Invader's Bane - Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy - Zero Regrets - Battlespire's Best - Bastion Breaker - Ardent Bibliophile - Subterranean Smasher - Bane of Thorns - True Genius - In Defiance of Death - No Rest for the Wicked - Nature's Wrath - Undying Endurance - Relentless Raider - Depths Defier - Apex Predator - Pure Lunacy - Mountain God - Leave No Bone Unbroken - CoS/RoM/BF/FH Challenger61,405 achievement points3 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭spartaxoxo wrote: »
Any build below 75k-80k is completely useless for vet content. That is the bare minimum.
This is completely player driven. I remember clearing tons of veteran content when the maximum GROUP DPS was under 75k (for a 1T/2DD/1H comp).
A HA build is sufficient to clear ALL normal content, and ALL veteran content in U37, and will still be in U38. What it should not be doing is clearing veteran HM content getting no-death/HM/speedrun achievements... and it will still be able to do that in U38, since it's a less than 5% change in damage.
I agree, for the reasons I stated above. It kills any incentive for personal player progression.1 -
loveeso✭✭✭✭[snip]Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7869559#Comment_7869559Stop the HA Hate: How Actual Fight Data Shows the Truth About Playstyle Balance
or
Don't Nerf, Just Improve Your LA Skills to Win
Well, well, well, guys, look at this one picture here. It's as if the data below is screaming "DUH!" so loudly, I'm surprised any player wouldn't hear it from a mile away. If anyone still has any doubts after looking at this, they might as well argue that the sky is yellow and water is dry
"takes account of all relevant factors"...
Exactly. We may speculate all day long but the final result achieved by a team in a trial takes into account all relevant factors - that’s why they are called relevant. Irrelevant factors, by definition, do not influence the final result.Those LA builds are glass cannon, minimal resistance, no death parses due to having top-tier supports providing major buffs in the game.
Irrelevant and seems like an attempt at deflection but indeed, when I play with my two-bar LA meta DD, it’s not more difficult than when I play with my HA build, just different. On my LA I am carried by my tanks and healers. Is being carried by supports more difficult? Sure, for the supports, not for DDsThe HA builds have all that tankiness and buffs built in.
False, not all, far from it, and anyone who has ever composed a raid group knows this.It's as far from an "apples-to-apples" comparison as can be.
False, as has been clearly shown throughout this whole thread. The anti-HA zealots did continue to compare apples to oranges throughout this whole thread though.It should be obvious that a build that is specifically designed to do maximum damage at the expense of survivalness, and requires the use of external buffs from supports should outperform a build that has that tankiness and their own self buffs.
The post you reply to clearly shows that those LA builds already do outperform all HA builds by a great margin so what you wrote is irrelevant and an attempt at deflection. Further widening the gap between LA and HA builds does not make any sense whatsoever.Most of these "top LA" parses on bosses are ones where you can only wear a specific set for that specific boss, and only 1 in group can really do so, such as Azureblight or Plaguebreak.
False. Most of these top DPS builds wear Relequen, Pillar, Depths, and Coral, some Runecarver or Azureblight. Cannot see an optimised group going for Plaguebreak nowadays, they would use Azureblight, so your mentioning Plaguebreak is also irrelevant.
A two-bar LA Azureblight DD is still a LA DD so what you wrote is, again, irrelevant but to humour you: another two-bar LA DD in the same fight (KA2 HM) where the Azureblight LA got 225k, gets 208k with Relequen + Pillar.It's also worth to note that those LA parses are only 8 DPS in the group, while HA builds can go with 10 or 11 in group due to their survivalness and self-buffs, so dividing all your numbers by 1.25 or 1.3 to account for having more damage dealers in the group brings them much more equal for total fight time per boss (other than for specific situations in specific gear, such as wearing Azureblight on 2nd boss KA, which only 1 person in a group can really do to get those extreme numbers).
[snip]
A. Good luck doing a DSR, KA or RG trifecta with 11 DDs and one tank and achieving a better score than an optimised group with 8 LA DDs
B. Your speculations about dividing all DPS numbers by this and that are pure fantasy. And not only because of A. above, but also because of, well, reality getting in the way… which is that LA groups (despite not having 11 DDs), completely dominate all trial leaderboards. They have better times, better score, and higher DPS. There is no need to divide anything - instead of speculating anyone can do what I did, check the logs, and see that what you write is completely divorced from reality. Sorry, not trying to be mean, but that’s just the facts.So, in conclusion. HA builds are overperforming for the level of skill and risk that is taken in running the build. Thanks for the conclusive data!
[snip]
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Icy on May 12, 2023 5:20PMMMOs: ESO (PS & PC), GW2 (😍) & Souls/Elden (😍)4 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »
Any build below 75k-80k is completely useless for vet content. That is the bare minimum.
This is completely player driven. I remember clearing tons of veteran content when the maximum GROUP DPS was under 75k (for a 1T/2DD/1H comp).
A HA build is sufficient to clear ALL normal content, and ALL veteran content in U37, and will still be in U38. What it should not be doing is clearing veteran HM content getting no-death/HM/speedrun achievements... and it will still be able to do that in U38, since it's a less than 5% change in damage.
This is a multiplayer game. People's ability to do content depends on both what the instance demands and how the players actually play the game. And the sets should be balanced around both.
They measure usage of sets to determine if something is used too much, they should also be looking at if it's used too little to be considered balanced.
75k-80k has been the absolute bare minimum for years now.Edited by spartaxoxo on May 12, 2023 5:32PM4 -
tmbrinks✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Any build below 75k-80k is completely useless for vet content. That is the bare minimum.
This is completely player driven. I remember clearing tons of veteran content when the maximum GROUP DPS was under 75k (for a 1T/2DD/1H comp).
A HA build is sufficient to clear ALL normal content, and ALL veteran content in U37, and will still be in U38. What it should not be doing is clearing veteran HM content getting no-death/HM/speedrun achievements... and it will still be able to do that in U38, since it's a less than 5% change in damage.
This is a multiplayer game. People's ability to do content depends on both what the instance demands and how the players actually play the game. And the sets should be balanced around both.
They measure usage of sets to determine if something is used too much, they should also be looking at if it's used too little to be considered balanced.
75k-80k has been the absolute bare minimum for years now.
And HA builds, as shown by players on both sides of the argument here, are completely capable of doing 80k, 90k, even 100k DPS, clearing that 75k threshold.Tenacious Dreamer - Hurricane Herald - Godslayer - Dawnbringer - Gryphon Heart - Tick Tock Tormenter - Immortal Redeemer - Dro-m'Athra DestroyerThe Unchained - Bedlam's Disciple - Temporal Tempest - Curator's Champion - Fist of Tava - Invader's Bane - Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy - Zero Regrets - Battlespire's Best - Bastion Breaker - Ardent Bibliophile - Subterranean Smasher - Bane of Thorns - True Genius - In Defiance of Death - No Rest for the Wicked - Nature's Wrath - Undying Endurance - Relentless Raider - Depths Defier - Apex Predator - Pure Lunacy - Mountain God - Leave No Bone Unbroken - CoS/RoM/BF/FH Challenger61,405 achievement points2
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