Update 44 is now available for testing on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/pts
Thoughts of a Random Guy on Necrom Changes to HA / Heavy-Attack builds & on Arcanist
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isadoraisacat✭✭✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »The proposed changes don't harm build diversity in the slightest. Oakensoul HA builds will only drop by about 4% DPS - still plenty strong enough to do all content.
If the difference is that small, then why does ZOS need to make the change?
Because it was overperforming. Not necessarily DPS wise, but just on the fact that you could hit above average dps while simultaneously not having to worry about sustain, being safe (as you're at range) and having some of the best cleave damage in the game (since the entire build is aoe).
Nerfing the damage down to be in line with the average build, while still maintaining its ease of use, safety, sustain, and cleave, is more than fair imo. I know I'll still be using it in all PvE content.
But the whole point is those with disabilities can not get a good dps out of the “average” build. They are bringing to line up with the prior you get the same damage with an ease of use but it’s usefulness is null when before you could actually hold your own In a dungeon and now you can’t.
You take the extreme minority of extreme 2 bar players with experience who abused this and ruin it for the disabled and less experienced.
[Snip]
I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here. You're right in that those with disabilities will not be able to hit "average" dps with "normal" builds, but they will absolutely still be able to hit average dps (even above average dps in an organized group) with an Oaken HA build, even post nerf.
As for my previous post - the average player (without disabilities) is absolutely able to hit above average dps with an Oaken HA build on live - that's the issue. It has too much going for it for those average players.
"But I'm not hitting those numbers, and I'm an average player without disability!" This means you probably just need practice (not you specifically, just anyone using this statement). It's absolutely possible (even easy) to hit the max amount of dps on this build with practice. Take me - I'm a PvP player through and through, and Oaken HA builds have given me an easy way to do any PvE content in the game. They will still do that just as effectively next patch, for me, for the "average" player, and for any players with disability.
And yet 2 bar builds still out perform HA builds.
I wonder what you consider “average” becuase I still talk to a lot of one bar bros who are struggling even with this build. You need to have high cp a lot of point added to different things all gold gear traits on all your gear. It’s not a instant thing where you slap on sergeants and oakensoul and storm master and do 100k dps.
[Snip]
[Edited for bait]Edited by ZOS_Volpe on April 19, 2023 4:04PM7 -
CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭isadoraisacat wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »The proposed changes don't harm build diversity in the slightest. Oakensoul HA builds will only drop by about 4% DPS - still plenty strong enough to do all content.
If the difference is that small, then why does ZOS need to make the change?
Because it was overperforming. Not necessarily DPS wise, but just on the fact that you could hit above average dps while simultaneously not having to worry about sustain, being safe (as you're at range) and having some of the best cleave damage in the game (since the entire build is aoe).
Nerfing the damage down to be in line with the average build, while still maintaining its ease of use, safety, sustain, and cleave, is more than fair imo. I know I'll still be using it in all PvE content.
But the whole point is those with disabilities can not get a good dps out of the “average” build. They are bringing to line up with the prior you get the same damage with an ease of use but it’s usefulness is null when before you could actually hold your own In a dungeon and now you can’t.
You take the extreme minority of extreme 2 bar players with experience who abused this and ruin it for the disabled and less experienced.
[Snip]
I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here. You're right in that those with disabilities will not be able to hit "average" dps with "normal" builds, but they will absolutely still be able to hit average dps (even above average dps in an organized group) with an Oaken HA build, even post nerf.
As for my previous post - the average player (without disabilities) is absolutely able to hit above average dps with an Oaken HA build on live - that's the issue. It has too much going for it for those average players.
"But I'm not hitting those numbers, and I'm an average player without disability!" This means you probably just need practice (not you specifically, just anyone using this statement). It's absolutely possible (even easy) to hit the max amount of dps on this build with practice. Take me - I'm a PvP player through and through, and Oaken HA builds have given me an easy way to do any PvE content in the game. They will still do that just as effectively next patch, for me, for the "average" player, and for any players with disability.
And yet 2 bar builds still out perform HA builds.
I wonder what you consider “average” becuase I still talk to a lot of one bar bros who are struggling even with this build. You need to have high cp a lot of point added to different things all gold gear traits on all your gear. It’s not a instant thing where you slap on sergeants and oakensoul and storm master and do 100k dps.
[Snip]
[Snip]
You're right, 2 bar builds can out parse Oaken HA builds. But again, that makes perfect sense if Oaken HA builds only account for a small number of builds and parse an average amount of DPS. They are thus better than 50% of builds and worse than 50% of builds, all while offering the best sustain and ease of use of any build.
Average build is taken from the 50th percentile of parses on ESO Logs. This is 107k dps, but is much higher than the actual average parse because of self-selection bias. It's thus reasonable to assume that the average DPS parse on an iron atronach dummy is somewhere around the realm of 90k - the exact same as the average Oaken HA parse.
Golding out gear accounts for like 3% dps at most. Purple gear is very easy and cheap to acquire. Traits do matter, but if you're complaining about having to wear the right traits at that point, you're complaining about playing the game. After CP changes, it doesn't take much CP at all to get comparable DPS, and gaining CP is quicker than ever now that the cap is 3600. You're right that you can't just slap on a build and get its max dps - you need to practice. Golding out gear, maxing out CP, and Traits won't account for the majority of DPS. Practice is what will give the most improvement.
[Edited quote and removed content]Edited by ZOS_Volpe on April 19, 2023 4:07PM2 -
AzuraFan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »It doesn't take away anything from me - as I said, I've been using it since it was introduced. But ZOS deemed it overtuned (which again, it is overtuned)
That's why the combat team at ZOS has been trying to balance combat for nine years and failing. Let players have fun, already. It's a game. If players are really enjoying a build and it's bringing more people into vet content, then let it be (as the Beatles would say). I don't understand the combat team's determination to destroy whatever's working for players.
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CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »It doesn't take away anything from me - as I said, I've been using it since it was introduced. But ZOS deemed it overtuned (which again, it is overtuned)
That's why the combat team at ZOS has been trying to balance combat for nine years and failing. Let players have fun, already. It's a game. If players are really enjoying a build and it's bringing more people into vet content, then let it be (as the Beatles would say). I don't understand the combat team's determination to destroy whatever's working for players.
What was "destroyed"? I'm trying to show people that Oakensoul HA builds are still really strong even after the nerf. I'm even excited about that fact - it means I get to keep using them, and yet people in here are claiming I'm gatekeeping and elitist? For sharing numbers to try to quell people's fears?Edited by CameraBeardThePirate on April 19, 2023 3:35PM7 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭isadoraisacat wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »
I bet if it was light attack 4 % drop you wouldn’t be happy
You lost the bet than. Just recently light attacks have lost 40% buff because empower no longer affects them and there is now a dmg cap put on their scaling. Do You see some massive complaints about those changes?Edited by Galeriano on April 19, 2023 3:26PM10 -
Lumenn✭✭✭✭✭
✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »The proposed changes don't harm build diversity in the slightest. Oakensoul HA builds will only drop by about 4% DPS - still plenty strong enough to do all content.
If the difference is that small, then why does ZOS need to make the change?
Because it was overperforming. Not necessarily DPS wise, but just on the fact that you could hit above average dps while simultaneously not having to worry about sustain, being safe (as you're at range) and having some of the best cleave damage in the game (since the entire build is aoe).
Nerfing the damage down to be in line with the average build, while still maintaining its ease of use, safety, sustain, and cleave, is more than fair imo. I know I'll still be using it in all PvE content.
But the whole point is those with disabilities can not get a good dps out of the “average” build. They are bringing to line up with the prior you get the same damage with an ease of use but it’s usefulness is null when before you could actually hold your own In a dungeon and now you can’t.
You take the extreme minority of extreme 2 bar players with experience who abused this and ruin it for the disabled and less experienced.
It’s this mindset here is why we will never have “play how you want” more like “play how the elitists want to force you to play”
As for my previous post - the average player (without disabilities) is absolutely able to hit above average dps with an Oaken HA build on live - that's the issue. It has too much going for it for those average players.
I guess that's the crux isn't it? Why is it an issue and for for whom? A build that at the top end does 30k less dps than a top end 2bar. A build with less versatility, and a crap heal. A build that despite several lies being spread, isn't one button and afk to hit it's potential (again, less than a 2 bar). You KNOW going into this build it's gimped. I certainly won't bring my HA sorc with my guild in anything too heavy as when we're all dpsing 120k(my top. I know many who do better but that's the best I got) we fly through. Is it an issue for the gatekeepers? Is it an issue for the ones who sell runs? Is it an issue for zos, who finally after all this time GAVE us an alternate path that didn't nerf top end dps? After ALL these months? Yet right after some in the forums made post after post of hate, NOW it's an issue and they start to walk it back?
Half of the people who are invested in the game enough to come to the forums hate weaving. Imagine that poll with all the casuals who don't come here and just play the game. Zos has always done what they want, negative pr or not but with the monetization going, the art fiasco, the YouTube video of bots booting paying customers, I hope they're really careful with how at least half of their player base feels.
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Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭isadoraisacat wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »The proposed changes don't harm build diversity in the slightest. Oakensoul HA builds will only drop by about 4% DPS - still plenty strong enough to do all content.
If the difference is that small, then why does ZOS need to make the change?
Because it was overperforming. Not necessarily DPS wise, but just on the fact that you could hit above average dps while simultaneously not having to worry about sustain, being safe (as you're at range) and having some of the best cleave damage in the game (since the entire build is aoe).
Nerfing the damage down to be in line with the average build, while still maintaining its ease of use, safety, sustain, and cleave, is more than fair imo. I know I'll still be using it in all PvE content.
But the whole point is those with disabilities can not get a good dps out of the “average” build. They are bringing to line up with the prior you get the same damage with an ease of use but it’s usefulness is null when before you could actually hold your own In a dungeon and now you can’t.
You take the extreme minority of extreme 2 bar players with experience who abused this and ruin it for the disabled and less experienced.
[Snip]
I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here. You're right in that those with disabilities will not be able to hit "average" dps with "normal" builds, but they will absolutely still be able to hit average dps (even above average dps in an organized group) with an Oaken HA build, even post nerf.
As for my previous post - the average player (without disabilities) is absolutely able to hit above average dps with an Oaken HA build on live - that's the issue. It has too much going for it for those average players.
"But I'm not hitting those numbers, and I'm an average player without disability!" This means you probably just need practice (not you specifically, just anyone using this statement). It's absolutely possible (even easy) to hit the max amount of dps on this build with practice. Take me - I'm a PvP player through and through, and Oaken HA builds have given me an easy way to do any PvE content in the game. They will still do that just as effectively next patch, for me, for the "average" player, and for any players with disability.
And yet 2 bar builds still out perform HA builds.
I wonder what you consider “average” becuase I still talk to a lot of one bar bros who are struggling even with this build. You need to have high cp a lot of point added to different things all gold gear traits on all your gear. It’s not a instant thing where you slap on sergeants and oakensoul and storm master and do 100k dps.
[Snip]
The problem is that on average they don't. You are focusing on extremes which is comparing fully optimised two bar setup used by expert level player to a one bar heavy attack setup that can pull its max with lower skill level.
There is only a handfull of expert level players in the game. Focusing on extremes gives You false view on the subject. Reality is that average or under the average one bar heavy attack player will easily outparse average or under the average two bar setup player. And the difference will be massive. That means two bar setups are becoming useless unless You are expert level player who can pull high end DPS on them. Requirement like that is not healthy for game balance.
ZoS is not "bowing down to elitists", they're actually bowing down to low and mid tier players who still want to play with two bar setups and with current state of the one bar heavy attack setup they are falling behind. Balance matters in every part of the game including mid and low tier. Don't expect that setup which is objectively way easier to play will provide You with noticably more DPS throughout 90+% of the game.
[Edited quote]Edited by ZOS_Volpe on April 19, 2023 4:12PM6 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭isadoraisacat wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »
I bet if it was light attack 4 % drop you wouldn’t be happy
You lost the bet than. Just recently light attacks have lost 40% buff because empower no longer affects them and there is now a dmg cap put on their scaling. Do You see some massive complaints about those changes?
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/610460/weaving-nerf-good-or-bad
There was more. I just did not bother with posting them all.Edited by BlueRaven on April 19, 2023 3:58PM1 -
Stanelis✭✭✭isadoraisacat wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »The proposed changes don't harm build diversity in the slightest. Oakensoul HA builds will only drop by about 4% DPS - still plenty strong enough to do all content.
If the difference is that small, then why does ZOS need to make the change?
Because it was overperforming. Not necessarily DPS wise, but just on the fact that you could hit above average dps while simultaneously not having to worry about sustain, being safe (as you're at range) and having some of the best cleave damage in the game (since the entire build is aoe).
Nerfing the damage down to be in line with the average build, while still maintaining its ease of use, safety, sustain, and cleave, is more than fair imo. I know I'll still be using it in all PvE content.
But the whole point is those with disabilities can not get a good dps out of the “average” build. They are bringing to line up with the prior you get the same damage with an ease of use but it’s usefulness is null when before you could actually hold your own In a dungeon and now you can’t.
You take the extreme minority of extreme 2 bar players with experience who abused this and ruin it for the disabled and less experienced.
[Snip]
I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here. You're right in that those with disabilities will not be able to hit "average" dps with "normal" builds, but they will absolutely still be able to hit average dps (even above average dps in an organized group) with an Oaken HA build, even post nerf.
As for my previous post - the average player (without disabilities) is absolutely able to hit above average dps with an Oaken HA build on live - that's the issue. It has too much going for it for those average players.
"But I'm not hitting those numbers, and I'm an average player without disability!" This means you probably just need practice (not you specifically, just anyone using this statement). It's absolutely possible (even easy) to hit the max amount of dps on this build with practice. Take me - I'm a PvP player through and through, and Oaken HA builds have given me an easy way to do any PvE content in the game. They will still do that just as effectively next patch, for me, for the "average" player, and for any players with disability.
And yet 2 bar builds still out perform HA builds.
I wonder what you consider “average” becuase I still talk to a lot of one bar bros who are struggling even with this build. You need to have high cp a lot of point added to different things all gold gear traits on all your gear. It’s not a instant thing where you slap on sergeants and oakensoul and storm master and do 100k dps.
[Snip]
There is only a handfull of expert level players in the game. Focusing on extremes gives You false view on the subject. Reality is that average or under the average one bar heavy attack player will easily outparse average or under the average two bar setup player. And the difference will be massive. That means two bar setups are becoming useless unless You are expert level player who can pull high end DPS on them. Requirement like that is not healthy for game balance.
Then maybe there is an issue with the accessibility of 2 bars builds ? Which is exactly the issue 1 bars builds was supposed to fix without ruining the game for players who actually enjoyed the 2 bar playstyle.
[Edited quote]Edited by ZOS_Volpe on April 19, 2023 4:13PM6 -
INM✭✭✭✭https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/610460/weaving-nerf-good-or-bad
There was more. I just did not bother with posting them all.
To be fair, there were many players gloating over the nerf as well. Just look at the last post in the topic you linked, the dude was happy about the nerf of something he didn't do. There were countless posts that demanded removing of weaving over years I was. I guess the boomerang has returned.1 -
Ragnarok0130✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Hapexamendios wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Hapexamendios wrote: »As a middling level player, I don't feel there is any justification for the nerfs whatsoever ever. I am just to the point where I feel I'm making a good enough contribution to my groups to clear vet DLC dungeons. I'm not hitting anything spectacular that anyone should be concerned with. Leave it alone.
You'll still be doing almost the same damage. Empower going from 80% to 70% only nerfs Heavy Attacks by about 6% (you can look at the math in my post in the PTS section). Storm Master's nerf is inconsequential as you can swap to Noble Duelists and get comparable dps.
You don't seem to understand. There is no justification for the nerfs at all as far as I'm concerned. The percentages you list are irrelevant to me.
I've never seen any player in any game think a nerf to their own class or build was ever justified. Whether you like the nerf or not the devs thought HA performance was overturned for their own opaque goals likely because established two bar players are showing exactly what HA builds are capable of so now new HA players in end game are getting a taste of the nerf/buff balance see-saw that end game players have suffered at the hands of the combat team for a very long time.2 -
Auldwulfe✭✭✭✭✭
✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »The proposed changes don't harm build diversity in the slightest. Oakensoul HA builds will only drop by about 4% DPS - still plenty strong enough to do all content.
If the difference is that small, then why does ZOS need to make the change?
Because it was overperforming. Not necessarily DPS wise, but just on the fact that you could hit above average dps while simultaneously not having to worry about sustain, being safe (as you're at range) and having some of the best cleave damage in the game (since the entire build is aoe).
Nerfing the damage down to be in line with the average build, while still maintaining its ease of use, safety, sustain, and cleave, is more than fair imo. I know I'll still be using it in all PvE content.
But the whole point is those with disabilities can not get a good dps out of the “average” build. They are bringing to line up with the prior you get the same damage with an ease of use but it’s usefulness is null when before you could actually hold your own In a dungeon and now you can’t.
You take the extreme minority of extreme 2 bar players with experience who abused this and ruin it for the disabled and less experienced.
[Snip]
As for my previous post - the average player (without disabilities) is absolutely able to hit above average dps with an Oaken HA build on live - that's the issue. It has too much going for it for those average players.
I guess that's the crux isn't it? Why is it an issue and for for whom? A build that at the top end does 30k less dps than a top end 2bar. A build with less versatility, and a crap heal. A build that despite several lies being spread, isn't one button and afk to hit it's potential (again, less than a 2 bar). You KNOW going into this build it's gimped. I certainly won't bring my HA sorc with my guild in anything too heavy as when we're all dpsing 120k(my top. I know many who do better but that's the best I got) we fly through. Is it an issue for the gatekeepers? Is it an issue for the ones who sell runs? Is it an issue for zos, who finally after all this time GAVE us an alternate path that didn't nerf top end dps? After ALL these months? Yet right after some in the forums made post after post of hate, NOW it's an issue and they start to walk it back?
Half of the people who are invested in the game enough to come to the forums hate weaving. Imagine that poll with all the casuals who don't come here and just play the game. Zos has always done what they want, negative pr or not but with the monetization going, the art fiasco, the YouTube video of bots booting paying customers, I hope they're really careful with how at least half of their player base feels.
I am going to be honest, I don't see why we disagree much ....LOL - in response to your other comment.
I have used a 1 bar build on my sorc, for the last 18 months.... oakensoul really didn't add much for me, but my step-mother uses it on her 2-Handed build, as she hates the bar swapping mechanic .... and my fiance', who has serious arthritis in her hands, is only not using it, because she hasn't done the antiquity grind, but also is looking at it for her 2-handed DK build.
I will defend the right for anyone to play the way they want - I don't necessarily need it, I tested it, but found that, either because of practice, or luck, that my already existing build was a bit more survivable, for me. Doesn't mean I don't use it occasionally as a testing and learning tool, with newer skills or builds... but it's something I am unlikely to use for long.......
I just don't think anyone has a right to tell other people how to play.
Auldwulfe
[Edited quote]Edited by ZOS_Volpe on April 19, 2023 4:15PM3 -
ZOS_VolpeadminHi,
We have removed and edited some insulting back and forth that was disruptive. Please ensure you are treating others with respect on the forums even when they have views that differ from your own. This is a friendly reminder that comments need to adhere to our Forum Rules.
Thank you for your understanding.Edited by ZOS_Volpe on April 19, 2023 4:20PMThe Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited - ZeniMax Online Studios
Forum Rules | Code of Conduct | Terms of Service | Home Page | Help Site2 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭.isadoraisacat wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »
I bet if it was light attack 4 % drop you wouldn’t be happy
You lost the bet than. Just recently light attacks have lost 40% buff because empower no longer affects them and there is now a dmg cap put on their scaling. Do You see some massive complaints about those changes?
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/610460/weaving-nerf-good-or-bad
There was more. I just did not bother with posting them all.
Is that suppsed to be an example of complaints about lighht attack nerfs? If yes than You did really poor job. Not only linked thread is not about neither nerf top empower or cap on light attack dmg scaling I mentioned but also change that linked thread is about havn't made it to live because both light and heavy attack users were not liking it. It was hitting heavy attack users more than light attack users actually. Thread itself also is not a complaint but rather a pool that asks players what they think.0 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭isadoraisacat wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »The proposed changes don't harm build diversity in the slightest. Oakensoul HA builds will only drop by about 4% DPS - still plenty strong enough to do all content.
If the difference is that small, then why does ZOS need to make the change?
Because it was overperforming. Not necessarily DPS wise, but just on the fact that you could hit above average dps while simultaneously not having to worry about sustain, being safe (as you're at range) and having some of the best cleave damage in the game (since the entire build is aoe).
Nerfing the damage down to be in line with the average build, while still maintaining its ease of use, safety, sustain, and cleave, is more than fair imo. I know I'll still be using it in all PvE content.
But the whole point is those with disabilities can not get a good dps out of the “average” build. They are bringing to line up with the prior you get the same damage with an ease of use but it’s usefulness is null when before you could actually hold your own In a dungeon and now you can’t.
You take the extreme minority of extreme 2 bar players with experience who abused this and ruin it for the disabled and less experienced.
[Snip]
I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here. You're right in that those with disabilities will not be able to hit "average" dps with "normal" builds, but they will absolutely still be able to hit average dps (even above average dps in an organized group) with an Oaken HA build, even post nerf.
As for my previous post - the average player (without disabilities) is absolutely able to hit above average dps with an Oaken HA build on live - that's the issue. It has too much going for it for those average players.
"But I'm not hitting those numbers, and I'm an average player without disability!" This means you probably just need practice (not you specifically, just anyone using this statement). It's absolutely possible (even easy) to hit the max amount of dps on this build with practice. Take me - I'm a PvP player through and through, and Oaken HA builds have given me an easy way to do any PvE content in the game. They will still do that just as effectively next patch, for me, for the "average" player, and for any players with disability.
And yet 2 bar builds still out perform HA builds.
I wonder what you consider “average” becuase I still talk to a lot of one bar bros who are struggling even with this build. You need to have high cp a lot of point added to different things all gold gear traits on all your gear. It’s not a instant thing where you slap on sergeants and oakensoul and storm master and do 100k dps.
[Snip]
There is only a handfull of expert level players in the game. Focusing on extremes gives You false view on the subject. Reality is that average or under the average one bar heavy attack player will easily outparse average or under the average two bar setup player. And the difference will be massive. That means two bar setups are becoming useless unless You are expert level player who can pull high end DPS on them. Requirement like that is not healthy for game balance.
Then maybe there is an issue with the accessibility of 2 bars builds ? Which is exactly the issue 1 bars builds was supposed to fix without ruining the game for players who actually enjoyed the 2 bar playstyle.
[Edited quote]
Well one bar builds have not fixed that issue. They just made things worse for those two bar enjoyers who were not top tier DDs. New mythic coming with Necrom seems to address that issue better than oakensoul. It lowers LA/HA dmg but boost all the other dmg. That being said it still doesn't mean that one bar heavy attack average DPS is where it should be balance wise according to devs.1 -
SerafinaWaterstar✭✭✭✭✭
✭ZoS is not "bowing down to elitists", they're actually bowing down to low and mid tier players who still want to play with two bar setups and with current state of the one bar heavy attack setup they are falling behind.
Then make a one bar sorc?!
People in my guild have made onebar wardens (one bear builds) & templars, and we are having fun running (& clearing) vet content that many would not have dared try on 2 bar builds. And this then gives them more confidence with their 2bar, as they have seen what vet is like & what dps etc is required.
As said earlier, this has opened up the end game to a lot of people & done much to bring some life & vitality back to vet trials, without the need for the tedious gatekeeping. It would be a bad move to remove that which has led to that increased interest & engagement.
So do not think it is for ‘balance’ with mid tier 2bar builds.3 -
Lumenn✭✭✭✭✭
✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »The proposed changes don't harm build diversity in the slightest. Oakensoul HA builds will only drop by about 4% DPS - still plenty strong enough to do all content.
If the difference is that small, then why does ZOS need to make the change?
Because it was overperforming. Not necessarily DPS wise, but just on the fact that you could hit above average dps while simultaneously not having to worry about sustain, being safe (as you're at range) and having some of the best cleave damage in the game (since the entire build is aoe).
Nerfing the damage down to be in line with the average build, while still maintaining its ease of use, safety, sustain, and cleave, is more than fair imo. I know I'll still be using it in all PvE content.
But the whole point is those with disabilities can not get a good dps out of the “average” build. They are bringing to line up with the prior you get the same damage with an ease of use but it’s usefulness is null when before you could actually hold your own In a dungeon and now you can’t.
You take the extreme minority of extreme 2 bar players with experience who abused this and ruin it for the disabled and less experienced.
[Snip]
As for my previous post - the average player (without disabilities) is absolutely able to hit above average dps with an Oaken HA build on live - that's the issue. It has too much going for it for those average players.
I guess that's the crux isn't it? Why is it an issue and for for whom? A build that at the top end does 30k less dps than a top end 2bar. A build with less versatility, and a crap heal. A build that despite several lies being spread, isn't one button and afk to hit it's potential (again, less than a 2 bar). You KNOW going into this build it's gimped. I certainly won't bring my HA sorc with my guild in anything too heavy as when we're all dpsing 120k(my top. I know many who do better but that's the best I got) we fly through. Is it an issue for the gatekeepers? Is it an issue for the ones who sell runs? Is it an issue for zos, who finally after all this time GAVE us an alternate path that didn't nerf top end dps? After ALL these months? Yet right after some in the forums made post after post of hate, NOW it's an issue and they start to walk it back?
Half of the people who are invested in the game enough to come to the forums hate weaving. Imagine that poll with all the casuals who don't come here and just play the game. Zos has always done what they want, negative pr or not but with the monetization going, the art fiasco, the YouTube video of bots booting paying customers, I hope they're really careful with how at least half of their player base feels.
I am going to be honest, I don't see why we disagree much ....LOL - in response to your other comment.
I have used a 1 bar build on my sorc, for the last 18 months.... oakensoul really didn't add much for me, but my step-mother uses it on her 2-Handed build, as she hates the bar swapping mechanic .... and my fiance', who has serious arthritis in her hands, is only not using it, because she hasn't done the antiquity grind, but also is looking at it for her 2-handed DK build.
I will defend the right for anyone to play the way they want - I don't necessarily need it, I tested it, but found that, either because of practice, or luck, that my already existing build was a bit more survivable, for me. Doesn't mean I don't use it occasionally as a testing and learning tool, with newer skills or builds... but it's something I am unlikely to use for long.......
I just don't think anyone has a right to tell other people how to play.
Auldwulfe
[Edited quote]
We don't disagree on much(perhaps a bit on lightning attacks/staves and it's minor.) Your posts on the subject have always been informative and very well thought out. 👍0 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »ZoS is not "bowing down to elitists", they're actually bowing down to low and mid tier players who still want to play with two bar setups and with current state of the one bar heavy attack setup they are falling behind.
Then make a one bar sorc?!
People in my guild have made onebar wardens (one bear builds) & templars, and we are having fun running (& clearing) vet content that many would not have dared try on 2 bar builds. And this then gives them more confidence with their 2bar, as they have seen what vet is like & what dps etc is required.
As said earlier, this has opened up the end game to a lot of people & done much to bring some life & vitality back to vet trials, without the need for the tedious gatekeeping. It would be a bad move to remove that which has led to that increased interest & engagement.
So do not think it is for ‘balance’ with mid tier 2bar builds.
So Your answer to wanting to play two bar setup is making a one bar sorc? That is a wierd logic to say atleast.
Confidence wont magically replace weeks or months of practice that are needed for two bar setup to compete with one bar setup with few hours/days of practice.
it's great thing that heavy attack setups opened game for many people but the thing is because of how high DPS of this setups is right now it also killed the usefulness of other setups. Expected drop in DPS wont suddenly kill one bar setups but have a chance to revitalise two bar setups that right now are pointless to bring into low/mid game. Nothing is being removed. The sky is not falling.3 -
isadoraisacat✭✭✭✭✭isadoraisacat wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »
I bet if it was light attack 4 % drop you wouldn’t be happy
You lost the bet than. Just recently light attacks have lost 40% buff because empower no longer affects them and there is now a dmg cap put on their scaling. Do You see some massive complaints about those changes?
Except the whole point of using oakensoul was for players to catch up to weaving light attack players with a play style they could do. Half of the weavers are not even using this ring and doing completely different builds and still out performing the majority with to there weaving 2 bar set up’s. Very nice strawman though.Edited by isadoraisacat on April 19, 2023 4:57PM2 -
Stanelis✭✭✭Well one bar builds have not fixed that issue. They just made things worse for those two bar enjoyers who were not top tier DDs. New mythic coming with Necrom seems to address that issue better than oakensoul. It lowers LA/HA dmg but boost all the other dmg. That being said it still doesn't mean that one bar heavy attack average DPS is where it should be balance wise according to devs.
I think you are missing my point.
I m not talking purely on a damage dealt and number standpoint.
I m talking on an ease of use and enjoyment standpoint without nerfing the expected required DPS to meet in a content.
You can implement an item that will lower LA/HA attacks damage but it won't make 2 bars playstyle any less clunky as it is now, as it isn't only a DPS issue. I hate to break your bubble but TESO battle system isn't highly considered by people who don't play TESO. Most people consider it is a mess.
Also no one bar setups didn't ruin anything, the fact everyone and their mother (literally) run these build should tell you something about what players enjoy and expect on average in the game. If 2 bars gameplay was the peak of enjoyment, nobody would wear oakensoul.
Also you may think it is a "small nerf" it still isn't a step in the right direction and the right message. Also don't forget that a lot of players who run 1 bar builds were the players who ran 2 bars builds poorly before and that were getting insulted in veteran content for not dealing enough damage and not being optimal enough. By reducing the damage for these builds you also decrease the efficiency of the average group running the content.8 -
isadoraisacat✭✭✭✭✭Well one bar builds have not fixed that issue. They just made things worse for those two bar enjoyers who were not top tier DDs. New mythic coming with Necrom seems to address that issue better than oakensoul. It lowers LA/HA dmg but boost all the other dmg. That being said it still doesn't mean that one bar heavy attack average DPS is where it should be balance wise according to devs.
I think you are missing my point.
I m not talking purely on a damage dealt and number standpoint.
I m talking on an ease of use and enjoyment standpoint without nerfing the expected required DPS to meet in a content.
You can implement an item that will lower LA/HA attacks damage but it won't make 2 bars playstyle any less clunky as it is now, as it isn't only a DPS issue. I hate to break your bubble but TESO battle system isn't highly considered by people who don't play TESO. Most people consider it is a mess.
Also no one bar setups didn't ruin anything, the fact everyone and their mother (literally) run these build should tell you something about what players enjoy and expect on average in the game. If 2 bars gameplay was the peak of enjoyment, nobody would wear oakensoul.
Also you may think it is a "small nerf" it still isn't a step in the right direction and the right message. Also don't forget that a lot of players who run 1 bar builds were the players who ran 2 bars builds poorly before and that were getting insulted in veteran content for not dealing enough damage and not being optimal enough. By reducing the damage for these builds you also decrease the efficiency of the average group running the content.
The last bit is very much the case.
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AzuraFan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »
What was "destroyed"? I'm trying to show people that Oakensoul HA builds are still really strong even after the nerf. I'm even excited about that fact - it means I get to keep using them, and yet people in here are claiming I'm gatekeeping and elitist? For sharing numbers to try to quell people's fears?That's why the combat team at ZOS has been trying to balance combat for nine years and failing. Let players have fun, already. It's a game. If players are really enjoying a build and it's bringing more people into vet content, then let it be (as the Beatles would say). I don't understand the combat team's determination to destroy whatever's working for players.
Sorry, I should have been clearer. I was speaking generally about the horrible cycle ESO is in. ZOS claims it wants to raise the floor. It introduces a mythic/changes skills/changes dmg values to do so. Players come up with builds that work and that let more players try content they couldn't manage before (for whatever reason). More players are happy. Then ZOS comes along and blows away whatever was working. Rinse and repeat.
ESO is the third MMO I've spent more than a handful of years in and I've never seen this before. Yes, skills are tweaked and nerfed, but not to this extent where players are constantly having to farm new equipment, abandon classes, or radically change their playstyles. Yes, MMOs are supposed to be a grind, but not like this. Those other MMOs have found other (better) ways to keep players engaged.
Right now I'm not affected. But I can think of a few things ZOS could do to my main's class or skills that would ruin my gaming experience. It does make me nervous sometimes about continuing to invest time and money into the game, when every patch it's possible that what I enjoy will be taken away for no good reason.5 -
CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »
What was "destroyed"? I'm trying to show people that Oakensoul HA builds are still really strong even after the nerf. I'm even excited about that fact - it means I get to keep using them, and yet people in here are claiming I'm gatekeeping and elitist? For sharing numbers to try to quell people's fears?That's why the combat team at ZOS has been trying to balance combat for nine years and failing. Let players have fun, already. It's a game. If players are really enjoying a build and it's bringing more people into vet content, then let it be (as the Beatles would say). I don't understand the combat team's determination to destroy whatever's working for players.
Sorry, I should have been clearer. I was speaking generally about the horrible cycle ESO is in. ZOS claims it wants to raise the floor. It introduces a mythic/changes skills/changes dmg values to do so. Players come up with builds that work and that let more players try content they couldn't manage before (for whatever reason). More players are happy. Then ZOS comes along and blows away whatever was working. Rinse and repeat.
ESO is the third MMO I've spent more than a handful of years in and I've never seen this before. Yes, skills are tweaked and nerfed, but not to this extent where players are constantly having to farm new equipment, abandon classes, or radically change their playstyles. Yes, MMOs are supposed to be a grind, but not like this. Those other MMOs have found other (better) ways to keep players engaged.
Right now I'm not affected. But I can think of a few things ZOS could do to my main's class or skills that would ruin my gaming experience. It does make me nervous sometimes about continuing to invest time and money into the game, when every patch it's possible that what I enjoy will be taken away for no good reason.
I totally get where you're coming from, but to be honest, this nerf is the smallest nerf ZOS has implemented in a while, and it's a far cry from the days of 50% swings in damage during Scalebreaker. Heck, it's even a far cry from the initial, extremely drastic change to EmpowerEdited by CameraBeardThePirate on April 19, 2023 8:07PM3 -
Ragnarok0130✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭isadoraisacat wrote: »TheDarkRuler wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Hapexamendios wrote: »As a middling level player, I don't feel there is any justification for the nerfs whatsoever ever. I am just to the point where I feel I'm making a good enough contribution to my groups to clear vet DLC dungeons. I'm not hitting anything spectacular that anyone should be concerned with. Leave it alone.
You'll still be doing almost the same damage. Empower going from 80% to 70% only nerfs Heavy Attacks by about 4% (you can look at the math in my post in the PTS section). Storm Master's nerf is inconsequential as you can swap to Noble Duelists and get comparable dps.
A nerf requiring you abandon the set and farm a new one is not inconsequential.
Here's a secret: MMO's are designed to get you to grind so that you continue playing the game.
Yes and at some point people are going to hop off that pointless hamster wheel and bring their wallets with them. Why are you supporting what you are calling a change of no consequence but one that requires people to farm and improve sets for according to you, no change from the status quo. Explain why you support this and how it makes any sense whatsoever for again, no change according to you but lots of sunk time and resources to others.Just a post to state that I fully support the OP in his post. I've been playing TESO several ago and stopped the game due to the need to weave light attacks, it simply wasn't an enjoyable gameplay to me. It's not immersive at all.
When I got back like one month ago I was pleasently surprised by the existence of the 1 bar HA build that made me pick the game again. Seeing that the most enjoyable build to me will be nerfed isn't a good message at all.
I hope zos is reading all this and hopefully will reconsider they are making a massive mistake and will drive many players away.
It just feels like they only care about the “elite” players and screw those of us with disabilities
This is a very rich response considering that U35 went through and eviscerated the end game community despite our vehement protests and data presentations in the PTS forums...but oh yeah ZoS totally listens to us in order screw the very people that ZoS drove end game players away for with their U35 justifications. Why would ZoS suddenly start listening to us now about HA builds if they didn't listen to us when it really mattered?
ZoS doesn't care about the "elite players" in PVE or PVP, they care about Crown Store sales and catering to the casual crowd that purchases crowns who have a large crossover with the HA crowd wailing and gnashing their teeth now that they're experiencing the inevitable MMO buff/nerf cycle of the end game. Look on the bright side at least ZoS no long resets all of your skills and passives when they hit us with the nerf bat.2 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »
I bet if it was light attack 4 % drop you wouldn’t be happy
You lost the bet than. Just recently light attacks have lost 40% buff because empower no longer affects them and there is now a dmg cap put on their scaling. Do You see some massive complaints about those changes?
Except the whole point of using oakensoul was for players to catch up to weaving light attack players with a play style they could do. Half of the weavers are not even using this ring and doing completely different builds and still out performing the majority with to there weaving 2 bar set up’s. Very nice strawman though.
And oakensoul managed to do that a little too well because one bar heavy attack setups not only catched up to two bar setups but in most of the cases managed to oputperform them. This is why nerf is happening. To give average two bar player a chance to catch up to average one bar heavy attack player. Right now one bar heavy attack setups are clear winners in low/mid and even some portion of end game for everyone who isn't top tier DD.4 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I agree with most of what has been written in the above comments apart from the following (these suggest replying without reading what the OP wrote
) 👇CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Or.... you could save money and spend that time farming skill points. I never have to use the armorer because i have enough skill points for a PvP build + a PvE build without having to respec.
And spending the time to farm skill points is an investment, saving you countless hours and gold in the future.
It doesn’t have much to do with skill points. Also, what if your LA & HA builds require different morphs of the same skill?
And what about Champion Points? It is okay for me to switch because I am high CP, but people with lower CP will have to pay for a respec every time they switch between LA and HA.CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Saying 75k+ dps isn't enough to be welcome in most groups is disingenuous
It isn’t disingenuous though, is it? That’s how it is and everyone who leads trials or just does many trials a week knows it’s the truth so why deny it? Theorising is all fine but it doesn’t make sense when it contradicts reality.CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »TheDarkRuler wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »People are overreacting to the HA changes.
… its already been demonstrated that you can still hit 90k+ dps on PTS with an Oakensoul HA setup.
Show the 90k DPS build on PTS and the CMX log. I havent found any.
Even 70k dps is plenty though.
alsoCameraBeardThePirate wrote: »… still keeps Oakensoul HA builds at 77k - more than enough
alsoCameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Saying 75k+ dps isn't enough to be welcome in most groups is disingenuous
So far, you have managed to move from 90k+ to 77k to 75k to 70k each time saying such a nerf is not much. Please stop moving the goal posts to suit your narrative. In another comment you also stated that HA builds can do 110k+ on a trial dummy on the live server - come on 😆CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »… and a slight nerf to Storm Master's (which isn't even the best set in an optimized group)
But Storm Master IS the best set in optimised groups. The current meta for HA is 1pc Slime, Storm Master, Sergeant, Oakensoul. There is absolutely no doubt about it. Here you go, an example: https://www.esologs.com/reports/c6pRrqwC1VAWYnDK#fight=17&type=damage-done
I played with many people using different HA builds, I tested many builds myself (duelist, undaunted, infallible, you name it, all of them) both on a trial dummy and in real content, including DLC trial HMs - SM is BIS & everyone knows it.
TL;DR
There is no need to guess by how much these two nerfs will decrease the meta HA DPS (e.g. depending on when the Empower buff and the SM buff are in the damage calculation chain) because instead of guessing I went to the PTS server to test it and get the actual numbers. After doing that, I provided these REAL numbers (not guesses about “how they should be”) in my original post. Combined, 12.5% nerf to Empower and 60% nerf to the SM duration result in 15% to 20% DPS nerf. If you think 15-20% nerf is negligible, then we might just as well claim that having 5-pc bonuses of Depths, Pillar, Coral, and Rele sets nerfed to 0 and that would be okay too. But we all know that it is not true because no one would wear them anymore. 15-20% DPS nerf is huge.
It is okay to dislike HA builds for whatever reason but please do not reply if you do not read what others wrote first and please do not spread disinformation. Please
So you tested what is now a destroyed build. Big deal. Or did you also test with Storm Master replaced by the now superior Undaunted Infiltrator?
As for Empower being reduced by "12.5%", who cares about that number? Empower's contribution to heavy attack damage was decreased by a lot less than 12.5% -- less than half as much, actually, on a sorcerer.Edited by FrancisCrawford on April 20, 2023 2:21AM0 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Murphy's Law instantiated:
I bought 2 Storm Master rings from The Golden, but forgot to buy even one Sergeant's Mail ring when they became available.
2 -
CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »Murphy's Law instantiated:
I bought 2 Storm Master rings from The Golden, but forgot to buy even one Sergeant's Mail ring when they became available.
This is the real tragedy of this patch. RIP FrancisCrawford, ????-20230 -
peacenote✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I had hope, but I am truly disappointed by the recent reversal of positive changes in the game over the last few months. A couple of base-game dungeon sets, such as Storm Master, finally had some use, but now they have been nerfed. We had finally found an alternative playstyle that, while weaker, was still viable, and it encouraged more players to become active and participate in trials and hard modes using HA builds. This made the game more inclusive towards people with disabilities. But now, these changes are being reversed, and it's a really sad situation.
100% agree.
I play both LA and HA, and seeing these changes led by Advertising driven Clickbait from ESO content creators and the Gatekeeping Crew made me reconsider buying the next Chapter.
Why?
The abandonment of "play how you want" in favour of the Gatekeeping Crew.
As in many other MMOs, eventually only the Gatekeeping Crew will remain in an empty wasteland of a game.
I have a few comments on this topic.- I want to be clear that I am not in favor personally of a nerf to the HA builds, especially so soon after they have become popular again.
- I appreciate the heartfelt advocacy of the OP.
- While clever, I don't appreciate the second comment I quoted as much. If we want to be heard as a community, building and spreading strong assumptions as to why the changes were done, especially when those assumptions include negative intent, seems counterproductive. We have no official statements from ZOS that these changes were done to pacify people who... let's say... prefer higher requirements for their teammates for hard content. Additionally coining a term "Gatekeeping Crew" seems problematic, and builds in an unhelpful label that potentially puts all people who might have another perspective into one category, and one that's clearly intended to be "bad/villainous" and that's just not grounds for a good, open conversation. The questions the OP asked "is it because of this or this?" felt much better for me. Which takes me to the last point.
- I couldn't help but notice that ZOS did actually share, in the PTS notes, why they were looking at changes. We can all read it:
Since we've started working on Heavy Attack build viability in the past year, we've seen a massive surge in their use, which is absolutely phenomenal for seeing more players being able to participate in end-game content at a much more digestible pace. While we're happy to see these builds being ran, we're seeing these builds inch a little too close to some of the high end builds with how much more simplified they are, and in some rare cases, they're outperforming a standard build. We're cutting down the damage bonus here ever so slightly in hopes that when you have Empower with a bunch of other Heavy Attack bonus sets, the numbers are still nice and juicy, but not as close to a full-on Light Attack build.
So there it is.... the devs feel the HA builds are slightly too close to the LA builds. They are trying to tune them down a little. They are not trying to stop them from being used in end game content. It is not a PvP-driven change. It specifically says "absolutely phenomenal" that this is happening. I mean, they could not be more clear in their support for this outcome. It's rare we get that strong of a statement.
Based on this, I think we would be better served by reacting to this explanation and testing the changes and providing feedback. Or even giving anecdotes regarding the requirements of guilds or groups for DPS if the nerfs seem likely to cause some of us to drop below those requirements. ZOS was pretty clear they want HA builds to be in end-game content, so shouldn't we give them the benefit of the doubt that they mean it? That if after the PTS cycle, if the changes aren't tweaked, and HA builds aren't in end game content, that they'll adjust? And do what we can to help provide data before PTS is over, so they have enough information to adjust sooner if at all possible?
I am not a fan of how many recent scenarios have been handled, regarding communication, but if we as a community react with skepticism and completely ignore ZOS when they give us clear communications and reasons behind a change... why would they bother to tell us anything? This explanation is the type of communication I'd like to see from them all the time.
Having been around since beta, and having been through the phases of HA builds being more and less viable and now more viable then ever, I personally believe in ZOS's commitment to them. It's been stated in various ways and in various places and, if they take a mis-step with balancing, I suspect we'll make a lot more progress by assuming positive intent and just giving clear feedback, and skipping all of the negative guesswork.
One thing that seems to be missing is clarification/confirmation regarding the explanation for the Storm Master nerf. There was no comment there, and given the sensitivity of this topic, confirmation that it was part of the HA adjustment and that they are keeping an eye on it would be nice.
Now I know many in the community feel burned by the "raise the floor" promises (personally I feel burned by the "you WANTED AwA... oh sorry we meant performance" dance) and this is where ZOS needs to meet us halfway. ADDRESS the feedback. Follow up. The community made it pretty clear the U35 changes did not seem to address what ZOS said they wanted to address. ZOS needs to respond if that happens on this for HA builds. If they don't, well, then that's on them and I withdraw my stance. 3 -
Shepoffire✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Hapexamendios wrote: »As a middling level player, I don't feel there is any justification for the nerfs whatsoever ever. I am just to the point where I feel I'm making a good enough contribution to my groups to clear vet DLC dungeons. I'm not hitting anything spectacular that anyone should be concerned with. Leave it alone.
You'll still be doing almost the same damage. Empower going from 80% to 70% only nerfs Heavy Attacks by about 4% (you can look at the math in my post in the PTS section). Storm Master's nerf is inconsequential as you can swap to Noble Duelists and get comparable dps.
A nerf requiring you abandon the set and farm a new one is not inconsequential.
Hey man guess what. It's been like this for a good long time in ESO. Don't like it I don't think this game is for you1
This discussion has been closed.