CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »People are overreacting to the HA changes. HA builds will still have more than enough damage to complete all veteran content in the game - its already been demonstrated that you can still hit 90k+ dps on PTS with an Oakensoul HA setup. The only thing you won't be able to do is score push, which is something 99% of players can't do regardless of build.
I had hope, but I am truly disappointed by the recent reversal of positive changes in the game over the last few months. A couple of base-game dungeon sets, such as Storm Master, finally had some use, but now they have been nerfed. We had finally found an alternative playstyle that, while weaker, was still viable, and it encouraged more players to become active and participate in trials and hard modes using HA builds. This made the game more inclusive towards people with disabilities. But now, these changes are being reversed, and it's a really sad situation.
TheDarkRuler wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »People are overreacting to the HA changes. HA builds will still have more than enough damage to complete all veteran content in the game - its already been demonstrated that you can still hit 90k+ dps on PTS with an Oakensoul HA setup. The only thing you won't be able to do is score push, which is something 99% of players can't do regardless of build.
Show the 90k DPS build on PTS and the CMX log. I havent found any.
Dagoth_Rac wrote: »Another thing to keep in mind is that DPS "acceptability" is not really continuous. Right now, if a guild or group is looking for a DPS and you have a HA build, it is usually a case of, "Not gonna be as high numbers as a 'real DPS', but close enough, so I'll invite." But once the numbers drop low enough, even if they are plenty good enough for a clear, you will start to hear a lot of, "They have enough to clear but are gonna slow us down - don't invite them."
50k DPS in Maw of Lorkhaj used to be one-in-a-million Top 0.0001% elite. No one, and I mean no one, wants a 50k DPS in their vMOL run nowadays. So this idea that, "You still have enough to clear," is absolutely true but not all that relevant. HA builds don't need to do the same DPS as LA weaving builds. But they have to be close enough where guild leaders and trial organizers don't feel they are a hindrance. Depending on how the dust settles, it is possible, and even probable, that HA builds will do enough DPS to clear, but not enough DPS to be welcome in most groups.
FrancisCrawford wrote: »How big are the nerfs really?
Reducing Empower is less than 5% to heavy attack DPS (and of course irrelevant to any other damage you do).
Replacing Storm Master with Undaunted Infiltrator costs you a line each of spell/weapon power and crit chance. How much does that affect overall DPS?
The replacement also increases you heavy attack tooltip by 2% or so.
It feels like the nerf should total less than 6% to DPS, whether or not you are running Storm Master now.
Is that a gamechanger at the high end (where I never play)?
FrancisCrawford wrote: »How big are the nerfs really?
Reducing Empower is less than 5% to heavy attack DPS (and of course irrelevant to any other damage you do).
Replacing Storm Master with Undaunted Infiltrator costs you a line each of spell/weapon power and crit chance. How much does that affect overall DPS?
The replacement also increases you heavy attack tooltip by 2% or so.
It feels like the nerf should total less than 6% to DPS, whether or not you are running Storm Master now.
Is that a gamechanger at the high end (where I never play)?
Storm master no longer works in battlegrounds at all where it was already not great. Limited space and walls to hide behind all over means it’s hard to get the HAs to complete and already didn’t compete well with real pvp builds.
It was serviceable enough that I didn’t have to swap builds and could play in this build while waiting on the queue to pop. Now so I need to buy a $50 armory assistant unless I just afk and wait to play battlegrounds ?
If it’s such a small change in pve why bother harming people looking for this relaxed play style? Argument goes both ways and just feels misleading bait for peole who invest resources and petty.
CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »How big are the nerfs really?
Reducing Empower is less than 5% to heavy attack DPS (and of course irrelevant to any other damage you do).
Replacing Storm Master with Undaunted Infiltrator costs you a line each of spell/weapon power and crit chance. How much does that affect overall DPS?
The replacement also increases you heavy attack tooltip by 2% or so.
It feels like the nerf should total less than 6% to DPS, whether or not you are running Storm Master now.
Is that a gamechanger at the high end (where I never play)?
Storm master no longer works in battlegrounds at all where it was already not great. Limited space and walls to hide behind all over means it’s hard to get the HAs to complete and already didn’t compete well with real pvp builds.
It was serviceable enough that I didn’t have to swap builds and could play in this build while waiting on the queue to pop. Now so I need to buy a $50 armory assistant unless I just afk and wait to play battlegrounds ?
If it’s such a small change in pve why bother harming people looking for this relaxed play style? Argument goes both ways and just feels misleading bait for peole who invest resources and petty.
Or.... you could save money and spend that time farming skill points. I never have to use the armorer because i have enough skill points for a PvP build + a PvE build without having to respec.
CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »How big are the nerfs really?
Reducing Empower is less than 5% to heavy attack DPS (and of course irrelevant to any other damage you do).
Replacing Storm Master with Undaunted Infiltrator costs you a line each of spell/weapon power and crit chance. How much does that affect overall DPS?
The replacement also increases you heavy attack tooltip by 2% or so.
It feels like the nerf should total less than 6% to DPS, whether or not you are running Storm Master now.
Is that a gamechanger at the high end (where I never play)?
Storm master no longer works in battlegrounds at all where it was already not great. Limited space and walls to hide behind all over means it’s hard to get the HAs to complete and already didn’t compete well with real pvp builds.
It was serviceable enough that I didn’t have to swap builds and could play in this build while waiting on the queue to pop. Now so I need to buy a $50 armory assistant unless I just afk and wait to play battlegrounds ?
If it’s such a small change in pve why bother harming people looking for this relaxed play style? Argument goes both ways and just feels misleading bait for peole who invest resources and petty.
Or.... you could save money and spend that time farming skill points. I never have to use the armorer because i have enough skill points for a PvP build + a PvE build without having to respec.
Time is money.
CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »How big are the nerfs really?
Reducing Empower is less than 5% to heavy attack DPS (and of course irrelevant to any other damage you do).
Replacing Storm Master with Undaunted Infiltrator costs you a line each of spell/weapon power and crit chance. How much does that affect overall DPS?
The replacement also increases you heavy attack tooltip by 2% or so.
It feels like the nerf should total less than 6% to DPS, whether or not you are running Storm Master now.
Is that a gamechanger at the high end (where I never play)?
Storm master no longer works in battlegrounds at all where it was already not great. Limited space and walls to hide behind all over means it’s hard to get the HAs to complete and already didn’t compete well with real pvp builds.
It was serviceable enough that I didn’t have to swap builds and could play in this build while waiting on the queue to pop. Now so I need to buy a $50 armory assistant unless I just afk and wait to play battlegrounds ?
If it’s such a small change in pve why bother harming people looking for this relaxed play style? Argument goes both ways and just feels misleading bait for peole who invest resources and petty.
Or.... you could save money and spend that time farming skill points. I never have to use the armorer because i have enough skill points for a PvP build + a PvE build without having to respec.
Time is money.
And spending the time to farm skill points is an investment, saving you countless hours and gold in the future.
CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »How big are the nerfs really?
Reducing Empower is less than 5% to heavy attack DPS (and of course irrelevant to any other damage you do).
Replacing Storm Master with Undaunted Infiltrator costs you a line each of spell/weapon power and crit chance. How much does that affect overall DPS?
The replacement also increases you heavy attack tooltip by 2% or so.
It feels like the nerf should total less than 6% to DPS, whether or not you are running Storm Master now.
Is that a gamechanger at the high end (where I never play)?
Storm master no longer works in battlegrounds at all where it was already not great. Limited space and walls to hide behind all over means it’s hard to get the HAs to complete and already didn’t compete well with real pvp builds.
It was serviceable enough that I didn’t have to swap builds and could play in this build while waiting on the queue to pop. Now so I need to buy a $50 armory assistant unless I just afk and wait to play battlegrounds ?
If it’s such a small change in pve why bother harming people looking for this relaxed play style? Argument goes both ways and just feels misleading bait for peole who invest resources and petty.
Or.... you could save money and spend that time farming skill points. I never have to use the armorer because i have enough skill points for a PvP build + a PvE build without having to respec.
Time is money.
And spending the time to farm skill points is an investment, saving you countless hours and gold in the future.
Even then it would still be irritating to have to swap gear and skills and morphs (which I guess you couldn’t do even with your skill points) every time a queue pops when the whole point of people into this is a laid back and relaxing play style.
CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »How big are the nerfs really?
Reducing Empower is less than 5% to heavy attack DPS (and of course irrelevant to any other damage you do).
Replacing Storm Master with Undaunted Infiltrator costs you a line each of spell/weapon power and crit chance. How much does that affect overall DPS?
The replacement also increases you heavy attack tooltip by 2% or so.
It feels like the nerf should total less than 6% to DPS, whether or not you are running Storm Master now.
Is that a gamechanger at the high end (where I never play)?
Storm master no longer works in battlegrounds at all where it was already not great. Limited space and walls to hide behind all over means it’s hard to get the HAs to complete and already didn’t compete well with real pvp builds.
It was serviceable enough that I didn’t have to swap builds and could play in this build while waiting on the queue to pop. Now so I need to buy a $50 armory assistant unless I just afk and wait to play battlegrounds ?
If it’s such a small change in pve why bother harming people looking for this relaxed play style? Argument goes both ways and just feels misleading bait for peole who invest resources and petty.
Or.... you could save money and spend that time farming skill points. I never have to use the armorer because i have enough skill points for a PvP build + a PvE build without having to respec.
Time is money.
And spending the time to farm skill points is an investment, saving you countless hours and gold in the future.
Even then it would still be irritating to have to swap gear and skills and morphs (which I guess you couldn’t do even with your skill points) every time a queue pops when the whole point of people into this is a laid back and relaxing play style.
If you're on PC, it's as easy as clicking a button with the dressing room addon. If you're on console, sure you have to change stuff but there's a minute of downtime before a BG starts anyways.
CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »How big are the nerfs really?
Reducing Empower is less than 5% to heavy attack DPS (and of course irrelevant to any other damage you do).
Replacing Storm Master with Undaunted Infiltrator costs you a line each of spell/weapon power and crit chance. How much does that affect overall DPS?
The replacement also increases you heavy attack tooltip by 2% or so.
It feels like the nerf should total less than 6% to DPS, whether or not you are running Storm Master now.
Is that a gamechanger at the high end (where I never play)?
Storm master no longer works in battlegrounds at all where it was already not great. Limited space and walls to hide behind all over means it’s hard to get the HAs to complete and already didn’t compete well with real pvp builds.
It was serviceable enough that I didn’t have to swap builds and could play in this build while waiting on the queue to pop. Now so I need to buy a $50 armory assistant unless I just afk and wait to play battlegrounds ?
If it’s such a small change in pve why bother harming people looking for this relaxed play style? Argument goes both ways and just feels misleading bait for peole who invest resources and petty.
Or.... you could save money and spend that time farming skill points. I never have to use the armorer because i have enough skill points for a PvP build + a PvE build without having to respec.
Time is money.
And spending the time to farm skill points is an investment, saving you countless hours and gold in the future.
Even then it would still be irritating to have to swap gear and skills and morphs (which I guess you couldn’t do even with your skill points) every time a queue pops when the whole point of people into this is a laid back and relaxing play style.
CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »How big are the nerfs really?
Reducing Empower is less than 5% to heavy attack DPS (and of course irrelevant to any other damage you do).
Replacing Storm Master with Undaunted Infiltrator costs you a line each of spell/weapon power and crit chance. How much does that affect overall DPS?
The replacement also increases you heavy attack tooltip by 2% or so.
It feels like the nerf should total less than 6% to DPS, whether or not you are running Storm Master now.
Is that a gamechanger at the high end (where I never play)?
Storm master no longer works in battlegrounds at all where it was already not great. Limited space and walls to hide behind all over means it’s hard to get the HAs to complete and already didn’t compete well with real pvp builds.
It was serviceable enough that I didn’t have to swap builds and could play in this build while waiting on the queue to pop. Now so I need to buy a $50 armory assistant unless I just afk and wait to play battlegrounds ?
If it’s such a small change in pve why bother harming people looking for this relaxed play style? Argument goes both ways and just feels misleading bait for peole who invest resources and petty.
Or.... you could save money and spend that time farming skill points. I never have to use the armorer because i have enough skill points for a PvP build + a PvE build without having to respec.
Time is money.
And spending the time to farm skill points is an investment, saving you countless hours and gold in the future.
Even then it would still be irritating to have to swap gear and skills and morphs (which I guess you couldn’t do even with your skill points) every time a queue pops when the whole point of people into this is a laid back and relaxing play style.
If you're on PC, it's as easy as clicking a button with the dressing room addon. If you're on console, sure you have to change stuff but there's a minute of downtime before a BG starts anyways.
And that’s irritating. Especially if you quest in between bgs that very randomly pop after large variances in wait time.
FrancisCrawford wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »How big are the nerfs really?
Reducing Empower is less than 5% to heavy attack DPS (and of course irrelevant to any other damage you do).
Replacing Storm Master with Undaunted Infiltrator costs you a line each of spell/weapon power and crit chance. How much does that affect overall DPS?
The replacement also increases you heavy attack tooltip by 2% or so.
It feels like the nerf should total less than 6% to DPS, whether or not you are running Storm Master now.
Is that a gamechanger at the high end (where I never play)?
Storm master no longer works in battlegrounds at all where it was already not great. Limited space and walls to hide behind all over means it’s hard to get the HAs to complete and already didn’t compete well with real pvp builds.
It was serviceable enough that I didn’t have to swap builds and could play in this build while waiting on the queue to pop. Now so I need to buy a $50 armory assistant unless I just afk and wait to play battlegrounds ?
If it’s such a small change in pve why bother harming people looking for this relaxed play style? Argument goes both ways and just feels misleading bait for peole who invest resources and petty.
Or.... you could save money and spend that time farming skill points. I never have to use the armorer because i have enough skill points for a PvP build + a PvE build without having to respec.
Time is money.
And spending the time to farm skill points is an investment, saving you countless hours and gold in the future.
Even then it would still be irritating to have to swap gear and skills and morphs (which I guess you couldn’t do even with your skill points) every time a queue pops when the whole point of people into this is a laid back and relaxing play style.
I presume you aren't on the PC, and hence can't use add-ons?
FrancisCrawford wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »How big are the nerfs really?
Reducing Empower is less than 5% to heavy attack DPS (and of course irrelevant to any other damage you do).
Replacing Storm Master with Undaunted Infiltrator costs you a line each of spell/weapon power and crit chance. How much does that affect overall DPS?
The replacement also increases you heavy attack tooltip by 2% or so.
It feels like the nerf should total less than 6% to DPS, whether or not you are running Storm Master now.
Is that a gamechanger at the high end (where I never play)?
Storm master no longer works in battlegrounds at all where it was already not great. Limited space and walls to hide behind all over means it’s hard to get the HAs to complete and already didn’t compete well with real pvp builds.
It was serviceable enough that I didn’t have to swap builds and could play in this build while waiting on the queue to pop. Now so I need to buy a $50 armory assistant unless I just afk and wait to play battlegrounds ?
If it’s such a small change in pve why bother harming people looking for this relaxed play style? Argument goes both ways and just feels misleading bait for peole who invest resources and petty.
Or.... you could save money and spend that time farming skill points. I never have to use the armorer because i have enough skill points for a PvP build + a PvE build without having to respec.
Time is money.
And spending the time to farm skill points is an investment, saving you countless hours and gold in the future.
Even then it would still be irritating to have to swap gear and skills and morphs (which I guess you couldn’t do even with your skill points) every time a queue pops when the whole point of people into this is a laid back and relaxing play style.
I presume you aren't on the PC, and hence can't use add-ons?
You already conceded this isn’t a solution for all platforms. It also ignores having to farm an entirely new set and improve it all over again - much like those who used PB in pve.
@CameraBeardThePirate
Maybe you missed that the appeal of these builds for many is relaxation and ease of entry. Inconvenience is what we aren’t looking for and having to change gear and skill every 10 minutes if you do bgs and actually play while waiting is just what I don’t want.
This change is a huge irritance to someone with my playstyle as i also need to find a new set entirely.
CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Or.... you could save money and spend that time farming skill points. I never have to use the armorer because i have enough skill points for a PvP build + a PvE build without having to respec.
And spending the time to farm skill points is an investment, saving you countless hours and gold in the future.
CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Saying 75k+ dps isn't enough to be welcome in most groups is disingenuous
CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »TheDarkRuler wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »People are overreacting to the HA changes.
… its already been demonstrated that you can still hit 90k+ dps on PTS with an Oakensoul HA setup.
Show the 90k DPS build on PTS and the CMX log. I havent found any.
Even 70k dps is plenty though.
CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »… still keeps Oakensoul HA builds at 77k - more than enough
CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Saying 75k+ dps isn't enough to be welcome in most groups is disingenuous
CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »… and a slight nerf to Storm Master's (which isn't even the best set in an optimized group)
I agree with most of what has been written in the above comments apart from the following (these suggest replying without reading what the OP wrote ) 👇CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Or.... you could save money and spend that time farming skill points. I never have to use the armorer because i have enough skill points for a PvP build + a PvE build without having to respec.
And spending the time to farm skill points is an investment, saving you countless hours and gold in the future.
It doesn’t have much to do with skill points. Also, what if your LA & HA builds require different morphs of the same skill?
And what about Champion Points? It is okay for me to switch because I am high CP, but people with lower CP will have to pay for a respec every time they switch between LA and HA.CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Saying 75k+ dps isn't enough to be welcome in most groups is disingenuous
It isn’t disingenuous though, is it? That’s how it is and everyone who leads trials or just does many trials a week knows it’s the truth so why deny it? Theorising is all fine but it doesn’t make sense when it contradicts reality.CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »TheDarkRuler wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »People are overreacting to the HA changes.
… its already been demonstrated that you can still hit 90k+ dps on PTS with an Oakensoul HA setup.
Show the 90k DPS build on PTS and the CMX log. I havent found any.
Even 70k dps is plenty though.
alsoCameraBeardThePirate wrote: »… still keeps Oakensoul HA builds at 77k - more than enough
alsoCameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Saying 75k+ dps isn't enough to be welcome in most groups is disingenuous
So far, you have managed to move from 90k+ to 77k to 75k to 70k each time saying such a nerf is not much. Please stop moving the goal posts to suit your narrative . In another comment you also stated that HA builds can do 110k+ on a trial dummy on the live server - come on 😆CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »… and a slight nerf to Storm Master's (which isn't even the best set in an optimized group)
But Storm Master IS the best set in optimised groups. The current meta for HA is 1pc Slime, Storm Master, Sergeant, Oakensoul. There is absolutely no doubt about it. Here you go, an example: https://www.esologs.com/reports/c6pRrqwC1VAWYnDK#fight=17&type=damage-done
I played with many people using different HA builds, I tested many builds myself (duelist, undaunted, infallible, you name it, all of them) both on a trial dummy and in real content, including DLC trial HMs - SM is BIS & everyone knows it.
TL;DR
There is no need to guess by how much these two nerfs will decrease the meta HA DPS (e.g. depending on when the Empower buff and the SM buff are in the damage calculation chain) because instead of guessing I went to the PTS server to test it and get the actual numbers. After doing that, I provided these REAL numbers (not guesses about “how they should be”) in my original post. Combined, 12.5% nerf to Empower and 60% nerf to the SM duration result in 15% to 20% DPS nerf. If you think 15-20% nerf is negligible, then we might just as well claim that having 5-pc bonuses of Depths, Pillar, Coral, and Rele sets nerfed to 0 and that would be okay too. But we all know that it is not true because no one would wear them anymore. 15-20% DPS nerf is huge.
It is okay to dislike HA builds for whatever reason but please do not reply if you do not read what others wrote first and please do not spread disinformation. Please
eovogtb16_ESO wrote: »It's kind of ironic to see the people who have treated toxic endgamers like crybabies for years to be provided with an option that can let them steamroll content with minimal effort, and after a small nerf, (you can still parse close to 100k and still steamroll content), have the same kind of feelings that toxic endgamers have had since beta.
I agree with most of what has been written in the above comments apart from the following (these suggest replying without reading what the OP wrote ) 👇CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Or.... you could save money and spend that time farming skill points. I never have to use the armorer because i have enough skill points for a PvP build + a PvE build without having to respec.
And spending the time to farm skill points is an investment, saving you countless hours and gold in the future.
It doesn’t have much to do with skill points. Also, what if your LA & HA builds require different morphs of the same skill?
And what about Champion Points? It is okay for me to switch because I am high CP, but people with lower CP will have to pay for a respec every time they switch between LA and HA.CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Saying 75k+ dps isn't enough to be welcome in most groups is disingenuous
It isn’t disingenuous though, is it? That’s how it is and everyone who leads trials or just does many trials a week knows it’s the truth so why deny it? Theorising is all fine but it doesn’t make sense when it contradicts reality.CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »TheDarkRuler wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »People are overreacting to the HA changes.
… its already been demonstrated that you can still hit 90k+ dps on PTS with an Oakensoul HA setup.
Show the 90k DPS build on PTS and the CMX log. I havent found any.
Even 70k dps is plenty though.
alsoCameraBeardThePirate wrote: »… still keeps Oakensoul HA builds at 77k - more than enough
alsoCameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Saying 75k+ dps isn't enough to be welcome in most groups is disingenuous
So far, you have managed to move from 90k+ to 77k to 75k to 70k each time saying such a nerf is not much. Please stop moving the goal posts to suit your narrative . In another comment you also stated that HA builds can do 110k+ on a trial dummy on the live server - come on 😆CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »… and a slight nerf to Storm Master's (which isn't even the best set in an optimized group)
But Storm Master IS the best set in optimised groups. The current meta for HA is 1pc Slime, Storm Master, Sergeant, Oakensoul. There is absolutely no doubt about it. Here you go, an example: https://www.esologs.com/reports/c6pRrqwC1VAWYnDK#fight=17&type=damage-done
I played with many people using different HA builds, I tested many builds myself (duelist, undaunted, infallible, you name it, all of them) both on a trial dummy and in real content, including DLC trial HMs - SM is BIS & everyone knows it.
TL;DR
There is no need to guess by how much these two nerfs will decrease the meta HA DPS (e.g. depending on when the Empower buff and the SM buff are in the damage calculation chain) because instead of guessing I went to the PTS server to test it and get the actual numbers. After doing that, I provided these REAL numbers (not guesses about “how they should be”) in my original post. Combined, 12.5% nerf to Empower and 60% nerf to the SM duration result in 15% to 20% DPS nerf. If you think 15-20% nerf is negligible, then we might just as well claim that having 5-pc bonuses of Depths, Pillar, Coral, and Rele sets nerfed to 0 and that would be okay too. But we all know that it is not true because no one would wear them anymore. 15-20% DPS nerf is huge.
It is okay to dislike HA builds for whatever reason but please do not reply if you do not read what others wrote first and please do not spread disinformation. Please