Thoughts of a Random Guy on Necrom Changes to HA / Heavy-Attack builds & on Arcanist

CameraBeardThePirate

AScarlato wrote: »

Yet you seem extra invested in this topic [snip]

[snip] I am not trying to invalidate anyone and I'm not sure where you're getting that from.

I use Oakensoul HA builds as a primary playstyle too, as I've stated before.

This nerf affects those at the top MUCH more than us at the bottom. The nerf was needed at the top - there's a reason the overwhelming majority of Trial logs are entire groups of Oakensorcs.

I've tried to calm people down about this whole thing, but it seems people would rather take time off their own lives with stress and worrying about an inconsequential nerf. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

AScarlato

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Yet you seem extra invested in this topic - and on the side of invalidating the people who use this as a primary playstyle.

That is a wild accusation without any legs. I am not trying to invalidate anyone and I'm not sure where you're getting that from.

I use Oakensoul HA builds as a primary playstyle too, as I've stated before.

This nerf affects those at the top MUCH more than us at the bottom. The nerf was needed at the top - there's a reason the overwhelming majority of Trial logs are entire groups of Oakensorcs.

Or maybe just a lot of people find this fun and enjoyable and want to push the limits? More than half of respondents in the poll here don’t enjoy la weaving. It’s still less dps than other builds but since it was viable those large percentage of okayed could use this instead who don’t like the other playstyle Or it’s just relatively new and some people like playing a new style for a while as most 2 bar la builds feel very similar in playstyle.

[snip]

[edited for baiting]

isadoraisacat

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Wow, I'm pleasantly surprised by the overwhelming number of replies! Thank you to everyone who took the time to share their thoughts on this topic. It's great to see so many insightful comments.

Hopefully, ZOS will take note of the community's concerns and reconsider their proposed changes to Storm Master and Empower before they go live with Necrom. I've noticed that there have been some misunderstandings regarding the extent of the nerf, with some suggesting it's only up to around 6%. However, I want to clarify that the numbers I provided earlier are not mere estimations or guesses, but actual results obtained from testing DPS in combat. So here are the accurate numbers once again.

SM Live vs PTS
-23.99% max DPS (-17.82% avg DPS)

The above DPS loss will be even worse in actual combat scenarios, because Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

By the way, it's worth noting that the Undaunted Infiltrator set is not a viable alternative to Storm Master. In fact, it still falls short in comparison. Here's why:

SM Live vs Undaunted Infiltrator (UI) PTS
-24.96% max DPS (-20.64% avg DPS)

If you're interested in verifying these test results for yourself, it's easy to do so by logging into the PTS. Here are some more details on how to replicate the experiment:


Test Assumptions:

1. The purpose of this test is to evaluate how the proposed changes affect Heavy Attack DPS, so we are only interested in sets and abilities that are specific to Heavy Attack builds. Therefore, we will exclude sets and abilities that are not relevant to this test, such as Pillar of Nirn and Volatile Familiar.
2. To minimize confounding factors and isolate the variables under test, we need to control for various factors such as differences in builds, classes, player skill level, and random variations caused by Critical Rating and Critical Damage. The controlled variables for this experiment are:
   • The combat ruleset (live vs PTS)
   • The 5-piece body set used (Storm Master and Undaunted Infiltrator).

Body

1x L Slimecraw
1x Sergeant (heavy)
5x Strom Master or Undaunted Infiltrator (both medium)

Bar & Accessories

Sergeant's Mail (lightning, neck, ring)
Oakensoul Ring

Same abilities, attributes, CPs, mundus, and target dummy for every test build.

To minimize the impact of player-executed rotation on the test results, we used Heavy Attack weaving as the rotation for this experiment. The rotation used was as follows:

• Wall
• Heavy Attack
• Heavy Attack
• Heavy Attack
• Heavy Attack

Results - see the beginning of this post (for details please see the image)

TL;DR
To summarize:
Based on the data collected, it appears that the proposed changes will result in a significant nerf to the maximum achievable Heavy Attack damage, with a reduction of approximately -24%. It's important to note that this test was conducted on a stationary target. In actual combat scenarios, Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

I don’t think people realize how deadly of a hit this is giving to ha builds. I think it may render some of our builds for us low dps solo players useless.

I guess it’s back to sucking wind and doing quests with as little combat as possible now and not being able to use all the content I pay for. Unless they review these things and decide not to move forward with this.

Personally I was happy with my main character the dps I was getting for now and the content I was able to do because of it it (even tho it still needs a ton of work I was Still is a much better place I’d never reach other wise without this ).

Sorry, but the test you quoted is not accurate. One can't test the DPS loss like that because it will not be an accurate assessment on the impact of the build. You need to test the entire build or the numbers will be greatly skewed.

When testing a full build on PTS vs Live, you only see a 6% damage loss. This is because, while the nerf to Storm Master's may impact your HA damage by 20% or so, wearing it in tandem with other sets will mitigate that loss. HA damage also only accounts for around 70% of the DPS of a HA build, so your overall dps is not impacted by 20% like the quoted test states.

You can check my post in the PTS forum for an accurate comparison between full parses.

Oh ok. Well for someone like me who is only hitting 25k dps half finished with their build it’s a massive hit to me and will further make it harder to finish my build that’s already been nerfed.

It’s almost like you are defending the changes because it’s what you wanted it. Trust me I’ll never be able to out parse you lol
It’s not my goal. I was shooting for 30-40 k max and I’m only at 25k I’m striving to focus on the solo arenas and many people like me aren’t hitting high dps or even affect your groups what so ever.

Make a parse on 21M trial dummy not 3/6M one. It gives more reliable starting point to know where are You at with Your DPS.

I unfortunately don’t have one and my guild as far as I know doesn’t have one either.

isadoraisacat

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Wow, I'm pleasantly surprised by the overwhelming number of replies! Thank you to everyone who took the time to share their thoughts on this topic. It's great to see so many insightful comments.

Hopefully, ZOS will take note of the community's concerns and reconsider their proposed changes to Storm Master and Empower before they go live with Necrom. I've noticed that there have been some misunderstandings regarding the extent of the nerf, with some suggesting it's only up to around 6%. However, I want to clarify that the numbers I provided earlier are not mere estimations or guesses, but actual results obtained from testing DPS in combat. So here are the accurate numbers once again.

SM Live vs PTS
-23.99% max DPS (-17.82% avg DPS)

The above DPS loss will be even worse in actual combat scenarios, because Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

By the way, it's worth noting that the Undaunted Infiltrator set is not a viable alternative to Storm Master. In fact, it still falls short in comparison. Here's why:

SM Live vs Undaunted Infiltrator (UI) PTS
-24.96% max DPS (-20.64% avg DPS)

If you're interested in verifying these test results for yourself, it's easy to do so by logging into the PTS. Here are some more details on how to replicate the experiment:


Test Assumptions:

1. The purpose of this test is to evaluate how the proposed changes affect Heavy Attack DPS, so we are only interested in sets and abilities that are specific to Heavy Attack builds. Therefore, we will exclude sets and abilities that are not relevant to this test, such as Pillar of Nirn and Volatile Familiar.
2. To minimize confounding factors and isolate the variables under test, we need to control for various factors such as differences in builds, classes, player skill level, and random variations caused by Critical Rating and Critical Damage. The controlled variables for this experiment are:
   • The combat ruleset (live vs PTS)
   • The 5-piece body set used (Storm Master and Undaunted Infiltrator).

Body

1x L Slimecraw
1x Sergeant (heavy)
5x Strom Master or Undaunted Infiltrator (both medium)

Bar & Accessories

Sergeant's Mail (lightning, neck, ring)
Oakensoul Ring

Same abilities, attributes, CPs, mundus, and target dummy for every test build.

To minimize the impact of player-executed rotation on the test results, we used Heavy Attack weaving as the rotation for this experiment. The rotation used was as follows:

• Wall
• Heavy Attack
• Heavy Attack
• Heavy Attack
• Heavy Attack

Results - see the beginning of this post (for details please see the image)

TL;DR
To summarize:
Based on the data collected, it appears that the proposed changes will result in a significant nerf to the maximum achievable Heavy Attack damage, with a reduction of approximately -24%. It's important to note that this test was conducted on a stationary target. In actual combat scenarios, Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

I don’t think people realize how deadly of a hit this is giving to ha builds. I think it may render some of our builds for us low dps solo players useless.

I guess it’s back to sucking wind and doing quests with as little combat as possible now and not being able to use all the content I pay for. Unless they review these things and decide not to move forward with this.

Personally I was happy with my main character the dps I was getting for now and the content I was able to do because of it it (even tho it still needs a ton of work I was Still is a much better place I’d never reach other wise without this ).

Sorry, but the test you quoted is not accurate. One can't test the DPS loss like that because it will not be an accurate assessment on the impact of the build. You need to test the entire build or the numbers will be greatly skewed.

When testing a full build on PTS vs Live, you only see a 6% damage loss. This is because, while the nerf to Storm Master's may impact your HA damage by 20% or so, wearing it in tandem with other sets will mitigate that loss. HA damage also only accounts for around 70% of the DPS of a HA build, so your overall dps is not impacted by 20% like the quoted test states.

You can check my post in the PTS forum for an accurate comparison between full parses.

Oh ok. Well for someone like me who is only hitting 25k dps half finished with their build it’s a massive hit to me and will further make it harder to finish my build that’s already been nerfed.

It’s almost like you are defending the changes because it’s what you wanted it. Trust me I’ll never be able to out parse you lol
It’s not my goal. I was shooting for 30-40 k max and I’m only at 25k I’m striving to focus on the solo arenas and many people like me aren’t hitting high dps or even affect your groups what so ever.

Im not trying to defend it. I'm trying to quell people's fears that they will be heavily impacted by this change.

If you're doing 25k dps, a 6% reduction will bring you to 23.5k dps. That is far from a "massive hit" and you should still have no issue doing any of the things you were already doing.

It’s still a big hit to me because the improvements that would push me closer to 30k are not just pushing me back to the 25k do you not see the issue ? I have goals I’m trying to reach I did put in the work to do duengons for gear get crystals / do all the stuff to get oakensoul fight bosses to level cp points. It’s not like I put on a ring and started doing great damage it just improved my damage and now it’s setting me back to where I need to do even more stuff to get back to the same point. If you can’t see a problem with that than I don’t know what else to say.

CameraBeardThePirate

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Wow, I'm pleasantly surprised by the overwhelming number of replies! Thank you to everyone who took the time to share their thoughts on this topic. It's great to see so many insightful comments.

Hopefully, ZOS will take note of the community's concerns and reconsider their proposed changes to Storm Master and Empower before they go live with Necrom. I've noticed that there have been some misunderstandings regarding the extent of the nerf, with some suggesting it's only up to around 6%. However, I want to clarify that the numbers I provided earlier are not mere estimations or guesses, but actual results obtained from testing DPS in combat. So here are the accurate numbers once again.

SM Live vs PTS
-23.99% max DPS (-17.82% avg DPS)

The above DPS loss will be even worse in actual combat scenarios, because Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

By the way, it's worth noting that the Undaunted Infiltrator set is not a viable alternative to Storm Master. In fact, it still falls short in comparison. Here's why:

SM Live vs Undaunted Infiltrator (UI) PTS
-24.96% max DPS (-20.64% avg DPS)

If you're interested in verifying these test results for yourself, it's easy to do so by logging into the PTS. Here are some more details on how to replicate the experiment:


Test Assumptions:

1. The purpose of this test is to evaluate how the proposed changes affect Heavy Attack DPS, so we are only interested in sets and abilities that are specific to Heavy Attack builds. Therefore, we will exclude sets and abilities that are not relevant to this test, such as Pillar of Nirn and Volatile Familiar.
2. To minimize confounding factors and isolate the variables under test, we need to control for various factors such as differences in builds, classes, player skill level, and random variations caused by Critical Rating and Critical Damage. The controlled variables for this experiment are:
   • The combat ruleset (live vs PTS)
   • The 5-piece body set used (Storm Master and Undaunted Infiltrator).

Body

1x L Slimecraw
1x Sergeant (heavy)
5x Strom Master or Undaunted Infiltrator (both medium)

Bar & Accessories

Sergeant's Mail (lightning, neck, ring)
Oakensoul Ring

Same abilities, attributes, CPs, mundus, and target dummy for every test build.

To minimize the impact of player-executed rotation on the test results, we used Heavy Attack weaving as the rotation for this experiment. The rotation used was as follows:

• Wall
• Heavy Attack
• Heavy Attack
• Heavy Attack
• Heavy Attack

Results - see the beginning of this post (for details please see the image)

TL;DR
To summarize:
Based on the data collected, it appears that the proposed changes will result in a significant nerf to the maximum achievable Heavy Attack damage, with a reduction of approximately -24%. It's important to note that this test was conducted on a stationary target. In actual combat scenarios, Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

I don’t think people realize how deadly of a hit this is giving to ha builds. I think it may render some of our builds for us low dps solo players useless.

I guess it’s back to sucking wind and doing quests with as little combat as possible now and not being able to use all the content I pay for. Unless they review these things and decide not to move forward with this.

Personally I was happy with my main character the dps I was getting for now and the content I was able to do because of it it (even tho it still needs a ton of work I was Still is a much better place I’d never reach other wise without this ).

Sorry, but the test you quoted is not accurate. One can't test the DPS loss like that because it will not be an accurate assessment on the impact of the build. You need to test the entire build or the numbers will be greatly skewed.

When testing a full build on PTS vs Live, you only see a 6% damage loss. This is because, while the nerf to Storm Master's may impact your HA damage by 20% or so, wearing it in tandem with other sets will mitigate that loss. HA damage also only accounts for around 70% of the DPS of a HA build, so your overall dps is not impacted by 20% like the quoted test states.

You can check my post in the PTS forum for an accurate comparison between full parses.

Oh ok. Well for someone like me who is only hitting 25k dps half finished with their build it’s a massive hit to me and will further make it harder to finish my build that’s already been nerfed.

It’s almost like you are defending the changes because it’s what you wanted it. Trust me I’ll never be able to out parse you lol
It’s not my goal. I was shooting for 30-40 k max and I’m only at 25k I’m striving to focus on the solo arenas and many people like me aren’t hitting high dps or even affect your groups what so ever.

Make a parse on 21M trial dummy not 3/6M one. It gives more reliable starting point to know where are You at with Your DPS.

I unfortunately don’t have one and my guild as far as I know doesn’t have one either.

Are you on PC? If so everyone has access to a house with every crafting station, parse dummy, assistant, mundus stone, and anything else one might need via the HHouse addon. All it does is add a command (/hhouse) that teleports you to a fully stocked house.

isadoraisacat

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Wow, I'm pleasantly surprised by the overwhelming number of replies! Thank you to everyone who took the time to share their thoughts on this topic. It's great to see so many insightful comments.

Hopefully, ZOS will take note of the community's concerns and reconsider their proposed changes to Storm Master and Empower before they go live with Necrom. I've noticed that there have been some misunderstandings regarding the extent of the nerf, with some suggesting it's only up to around 6%. However, I want to clarify that the numbers I provided earlier are not mere estimations or guesses, but actual results obtained from testing DPS in combat. So here are the accurate numbers once again.

SM Live vs PTS
-23.99% max DPS (-17.82% avg DPS)

The above DPS loss will be even worse in actual combat scenarios, because Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

By the way, it's worth noting that the Undaunted Infiltrator set is not a viable alternative to Storm Master. In fact, it still falls short in comparison. Here's why:

SM Live vs Undaunted Infiltrator (UI) PTS
-24.96% max DPS (-20.64% avg DPS)

If you're interested in verifying these test results for yourself, it's easy to do so by logging into the PTS. Here are some more details on how to replicate the experiment:


Test Assumptions:

1. The purpose of this test is to evaluate how the proposed changes affect Heavy Attack DPS, so we are only interested in sets and abilities that are specific to Heavy Attack builds. Therefore, we will exclude sets and abilities that are not relevant to this test, such as Pillar of Nirn and Volatile Familiar.
2. To minimize confounding factors and isolate the variables under test, we need to control for various factors such as differences in builds, classes, player skill level, and random variations caused by Critical Rating and Critical Damage. The controlled variables for this experiment are:
   • The combat ruleset (live vs PTS)
   • The 5-piece body set used (Storm Master and Undaunted Infiltrator).

Body

1x L Slimecraw
1x Sergeant (heavy)
5x Strom Master or Undaunted Infiltrator (both medium)

Bar & Accessories

Sergeant's Mail (lightning, neck, ring)
Oakensoul Ring

Same abilities, attributes, CPs, mundus, and target dummy for every test build.

To minimize the impact of player-executed rotation on the test results, we used Heavy Attack weaving as the rotation for this experiment. The rotation used was as follows:

• Wall
• Heavy Attack
• Heavy Attack
• Heavy Attack
• Heavy Attack

Results - see the beginning of this post (for details please see the image)

TL;DR
To summarize:
Based on the data collected, it appears that the proposed changes will result in a significant nerf to the maximum achievable Heavy Attack damage, with a reduction of approximately -24%. It's important to note that this test was conducted on a stationary target. In actual combat scenarios, Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

I don’t think people realize how deadly of a hit this is giving to ha builds. I think it may render some of our builds for us low dps solo players useless.

I guess it’s back to sucking wind and doing quests with as little combat as possible now and not being able to use all the content I pay for. Unless they review these things and decide not to move forward with this.

Personally I was happy with my main character the dps I was getting for now and the content I was able to do because of it it (even tho it still needs a ton of work I was Still is a much better place I’d never reach other wise without this ).

Sorry, but the test you quoted is not accurate. One can't test the DPS loss like that because it will not be an accurate assessment on the impact of the build. You need to test the entire build or the numbers will be greatly skewed.

When testing a full build on PTS vs Live, you only see a 6% damage loss. This is because, while the nerf to Storm Master's may impact your HA damage by 20% or so, wearing it in tandem with other sets will mitigate that loss. HA damage also only accounts for around 70% of the DPS of a HA build, so your overall dps is not impacted by 20% like the quoted test states.

You can check my post in the PTS forum for an accurate comparison between full parses.

Oh ok. Well for someone like me who is only hitting 25k dps half finished with their build it’s a massive hit to me and will further make it harder to finish my build that’s already been nerfed.

It’s almost like you are defending the changes because it’s what you wanted it. Trust me I’ll never be able to out parse you lol
It’s not my goal. I was shooting for 30-40 k max and I’m only at 25k I’m striving to focus on the solo arenas and many people like me aren’t hitting high dps or even affect your groups what so ever.

Make a parse on 21M trial dummy not 3/6M one. It gives more reliable starting point to know where are You at with Your DPS.

I unfortunately don’t have one and my guild as far as I know doesn’t have one either.

Are you on PC? If so everyone has access to a house with every crafting station, parse dummy, assistant, mundus stone, and anything else one might need via the HHouse addon. All it does is add a command (/hhouse) that teleports you to a fully stocked house.

I am on pc. I’m an old gen x boomer so I don’t really use add ons but I’ll look into it.

CameraBeardThePirate

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Wow, I'm pleasantly surprised by the overwhelming number of replies! Thank you to everyone who took the time to share their thoughts on this topic. It's great to see so many insightful comments.

Hopefully, ZOS will take note of the community's concerns and reconsider their proposed changes to Storm Master and Empower before they go live with Necrom. I've noticed that there have been some misunderstandings regarding the extent of the nerf, with some suggesting it's only up to around 6%. However, I want to clarify that the numbers I provided earlier are not mere estimations or guesses, but actual results obtained from testing DPS in combat. So here are the accurate numbers once again.

SM Live vs PTS
-23.99% max DPS (-17.82% avg DPS)

The above DPS loss will be even worse in actual combat scenarios, because Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

By the way, it's worth noting that the Undaunted Infiltrator set is not a viable alternative to Storm Master. In fact, it still falls short in comparison. Here's why:

SM Live vs Undaunted Infiltrator (UI) PTS
-24.96% max DPS (-20.64% avg DPS)

If you're interested in verifying these test results for yourself, it's easy to do so by logging into the PTS. Here are some more details on how to replicate the experiment:


Test Assumptions:

1. The purpose of this test is to evaluate how the proposed changes affect Heavy Attack DPS, so we are only interested in sets and abilities that are specific to Heavy Attack builds. Therefore, we will exclude sets and abilities that are not relevant to this test, such as Pillar of Nirn and Volatile Familiar.
2. To minimize confounding factors and isolate the variables under test, we need to control for various factors such as differences in builds, classes, player skill level, and random variations caused by Critical Rating and Critical Damage. The controlled variables for this experiment are:
   • The combat ruleset (live vs PTS)
   • The 5-piece body set used (Storm Master and Undaunted Infiltrator).

Body

1x L Slimecraw
1x Sergeant (heavy)
5x Strom Master or Undaunted Infiltrator (both medium)

Bar & Accessories

Sergeant's Mail (lightning, neck, ring)
Oakensoul Ring

Same abilities, attributes, CPs, mundus, and target dummy for every test build.

To minimize the impact of player-executed rotation on the test results, we used Heavy Attack weaving as the rotation for this experiment. The rotation used was as follows:

• Wall
• Heavy Attack
• Heavy Attack
• Heavy Attack
• Heavy Attack

Results - see the beginning of this post (for details please see the image)

TL;DR
To summarize:
Based on the data collected, it appears that the proposed changes will result in a significant nerf to the maximum achievable Heavy Attack damage, with a reduction of approximately -24%. It's important to note that this test was conducted on a stationary target. In actual combat scenarios, Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

I don’t think people realize how deadly of a hit this is giving to ha builds. I think it may render some of our builds for us low dps solo players useless.

I guess it’s back to sucking wind and doing quests with as little combat as possible now and not being able to use all the content I pay for. Unless they review these things and decide not to move forward with this.

Personally I was happy with my main character the dps I was getting for now and the content I was able to do because of it it (even tho it still needs a ton of work I was Still is a much better place I’d never reach other wise without this ).

Sorry, but the test you quoted is not accurate. One can't test the DPS loss like that because it will not be an accurate assessment on the impact of the build. You need to test the entire build or the numbers will be greatly skewed.

When testing a full build on PTS vs Live, you only see a 6% damage loss. This is because, while the nerf to Storm Master's may impact your HA damage by 20% or so, wearing it in tandem with other sets will mitigate that loss. HA damage also only accounts for around 70% of the DPS of a HA build, so your overall dps is not impacted by 20% like the quoted test states.

You can check my post in the PTS forum for an accurate comparison between full parses.

Oh ok. Well for someone like me who is only hitting 25k dps half finished with their build it’s a massive hit to me and will further make it harder to finish my build that’s already been nerfed.

It’s almost like you are defending the changes because it’s what you wanted it. Trust me I’ll never be able to out parse you lol
It’s not my goal. I was shooting for 30-40 k max and I’m only at 25k I’m striving to focus on the solo arenas and many people like me aren’t hitting high dps or even affect your groups what so ever.

Make a parse on 21M trial dummy not 3/6M one. It gives more reliable starting point to know where are You at with Your DPS.

I unfortunately don’t have one and my guild as far as I know doesn’t have one either.

Are you on PC? If so everyone has access to a house with every crafting station, parse dummy, assistant, mundus stone, and anything else one might need via the HHouse addon. All it does is add a command (/hhouse) that teleports you to a fully stocked house.

I am on pc. I’m an old gen x boomer so I don’t really use add ons but I’ll look into it.

It's an extremely lightweight addon (since it's merely adding a command to teleport to a house). Completely unintrusive (no UI elements or anything) and all of the amenities provide a perfect place to test different setups or practice your rotations. Definitely recommend it, if for no other reason then to have easy access to all of the mundus stones and crafting stations.

isadoraisacat

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Wow, I'm pleasantly surprised by the overwhelming number of replies! Thank you to everyone who took the time to share their thoughts on this topic. It's great to see so many insightful comments.

Hopefully, ZOS will take note of the community's concerns and reconsider their proposed changes to Storm Master and Empower before they go live with Necrom. I've noticed that there have been some misunderstandings regarding the extent of the nerf, with some suggesting it's only up to around 6%. However, I want to clarify that the numbers I provided earlier are not mere estimations or guesses, but actual results obtained from testing DPS in combat. So here are the accurate numbers once again.

SM Live vs PTS
-23.99% max DPS (-17.82% avg DPS)

The above DPS loss will be even worse in actual combat scenarios, because Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

By the way, it's worth noting that the Undaunted Infiltrator set is not a viable alternative to Storm Master. In fact, it still falls short in comparison. Here's why:

SM Live vs Undaunted Infiltrator (UI) PTS
-24.96% max DPS (-20.64% avg DPS)

If you're interested in verifying these test results for yourself, it's easy to do so by logging into the PTS. Here are some more details on how to replicate the experiment:


Test Assumptions:

1. The purpose of this test is to evaluate how the proposed changes affect Heavy Attack DPS, so we are only interested in sets and abilities that are specific to Heavy Attack builds. Therefore, we will exclude sets and abilities that are not relevant to this test, such as Pillar of Nirn and Volatile Familiar.
2. To minimize confounding factors and isolate the variables under test, we need to control for various factors such as differences in builds, classes, player skill level, and random variations caused by Critical Rating and Critical Damage. The controlled variables for this experiment are:
   • The combat ruleset (live vs PTS)
   • The 5-piece body set used (Storm Master and Undaunted Infiltrator).

Body

1x L Slimecraw
1x Sergeant (heavy)
5x Strom Master or Undaunted Infiltrator (both medium)

Bar & Accessories

Sergeant's Mail (lightning, neck, ring)
Oakensoul Ring

Same abilities, attributes, CPs, mundus, and target dummy for every test build.

To minimize the impact of player-executed rotation on the test results, we used Heavy Attack weaving as the rotation for this experiment. The rotation used was as follows:

• Wall
• Heavy Attack
• Heavy Attack
• Heavy Attack
• Heavy Attack

Results - see the beginning of this post (for details please see the image)

TL;DR
To summarize:
Based on the data collected, it appears that the proposed changes will result in a significant nerf to the maximum achievable Heavy Attack damage, with a reduction of approximately -24%. It's important to note that this test was conducted on a stationary target. In actual combat scenarios, Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

I don’t think people realize how deadly of a hit this is giving to ha builds. I think it may render some of our builds for us low dps solo players useless.

I guess it’s back to sucking wind and doing quests with as little combat as possible now and not being able to use all the content I pay for. Unless they review these things and decide not to move forward with this.

Personally I was happy with my main character the dps I was getting for now and the content I was able to do because of it it (even tho it still needs a ton of work I was Still is a much better place I’d never reach other wise without this ).

Sorry, but the test you quoted is not accurate. One can't test the DPS loss like that because it will not be an accurate assessment on the impact of the build. You need to test the entire build or the numbers will be greatly skewed.

When testing a full build on PTS vs Live, you only see a 6% damage loss. This is because, while the nerf to Storm Master's may impact your HA damage by 20% or so, wearing it in tandem with other sets will mitigate that loss. HA damage also only accounts for around 70% of the DPS of a HA build, so your overall dps is not impacted by 20% like the quoted test states.

You can check my post in the PTS forum for an accurate comparison between full parses.

Oh ok. Well for someone like me who is only hitting 25k dps half finished with their build it’s a massive hit to me and will further make it harder to finish my build that’s already been nerfed.

It’s almost like you are defending the changes because it’s what you wanted it. Trust me I’ll never be able to out parse you lol
It’s not my goal. I was shooting for 30-40 k max and I’m only at 25k I’m striving to focus on the solo arenas and many people like me aren’t hitting high dps or even affect your groups what so ever.

Make a parse on 21M trial dummy not 3/6M one. It gives more reliable starting point to know where are You at with Your DPS.

I unfortunately don’t have one and my guild as far as I know doesn’t have one either.

Are you on PC? If so everyone has access to a house with every crafting station, parse dummy, assistant, mundus stone, and anything else one might need via the HHouse addon. All it does is add a command (/hhouse) that teleports you to a fully stocked house.

I am on pc. I’m an old gen x boomer so I don’t really use add ons but I’ll look into it.

It's an extremely lightweight addon (since it's merely adding a command to teleport to a house). Completely unintrusive (no UI elements or anything) and all of the amenities provide a perfect place to test different setups or practice your rotations. Definitely recommend it, if for no other reason then to have easy access to all of the mundus stones and crafting stations.

Cool is there a video or directions how to install this ? I’ll admit I’ve never even used a mod in Skyrim and I have over 6000 hours in that game across many platforms and countless hours in Daggerfall and morrowind.

I’m not very tech savvy but I’ll give it a go if there is a clearly instruction how to do it,

CameraBeardThePirate

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Wow, I'm pleasantly surprised by the overwhelming number of replies! Thank you to everyone who took the time to share their thoughts on this topic. It's great to see so many insightful comments.

Hopefully, ZOS will take note of the community's concerns and reconsider their proposed changes to Storm Master and Empower before they go live with Necrom. I've noticed that there have been some misunderstandings regarding the extent of the nerf, with some suggesting it's only up to around 6%. However, I want to clarify that the numbers I provided earlier are not mere estimations or guesses, but actual results obtained from testing DPS in combat. So here are the accurate numbers once again.

SM Live vs PTS
-23.99% max DPS (-17.82% avg DPS)

The above DPS loss will be even worse in actual combat scenarios, because Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

By the way, it's worth noting that the Undaunted Infiltrator set is not a viable alternative to Storm Master. In fact, it still falls short in comparison. Here's why:

SM Live vs Undaunted Infiltrator (UI) PTS
-24.96% max DPS (-20.64% avg DPS)

If you're interested in verifying these test results for yourself, it's easy to do so by logging into the PTS. Here are some more details on how to replicate the experiment:


Test Assumptions:

1. The purpose of this test is to evaluate how the proposed changes affect Heavy Attack DPS, so we are only interested in sets and abilities that are specific to Heavy Attack builds. Therefore, we will exclude sets and abilities that are not relevant to this test, such as Pillar of Nirn and Volatile Familiar.
2. To minimize confounding factors and isolate the variables under test, we need to control for various factors such as differences in builds, classes, player skill level, and random variations caused by Critical Rating and Critical Damage. The controlled variables for this experiment are:
   • The combat ruleset (live vs PTS)
   • The 5-piece body set used (Storm Master and Undaunted Infiltrator).

Body

1x L Slimecraw
1x Sergeant (heavy)
5x Strom Master or Undaunted Infiltrator (both medium)

Bar & Accessories

Sergeant's Mail (lightning, neck, ring)
Oakensoul Ring

Same abilities, attributes, CPs, mundus, and target dummy for every test build.

To minimize the impact of player-executed rotation on the test results, we used Heavy Attack weaving as the rotation for this experiment. The rotation used was as follows:

• Wall
• Heavy Attack
• Heavy Attack
• Heavy Attack
• Heavy Attack

Results - see the beginning of this post (for details please see the image)

TL;DR
To summarize:
Based on the data collected, it appears that the proposed changes will result in a significant nerf to the maximum achievable Heavy Attack damage, with a reduction of approximately -24%. It's important to note that this test was conducted on a stationary target. In actual combat scenarios, Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

I don’t think people realize how deadly of a hit this is giving to ha builds. I think it may render some of our builds for us low dps solo players useless.

I guess it’s back to sucking wind and doing quests with as little combat as possible now and not being able to use all the content I pay for. Unless they review these things and decide not to move forward with this.

Personally I was happy with my main character the dps I was getting for now and the content I was able to do because of it it (even tho it still needs a ton of work I was Still is a much better place I’d never reach other wise without this ).

Sorry, but the test you quoted is not accurate. One can't test the DPS loss like that because it will not be an accurate assessment on the impact of the build. You need to test the entire build or the numbers will be greatly skewed.

When testing a full build on PTS vs Live, you only see a 6% damage loss. This is because, while the nerf to Storm Master's may impact your HA damage by 20% or so, wearing it in tandem with other sets will mitigate that loss. HA damage also only accounts for around 70% of the DPS of a HA build, so your overall dps is not impacted by 20% like the quoted test states.

You can check my post in the PTS forum for an accurate comparison between full parses.

Oh ok. Well for someone like me who is only hitting 25k dps half finished with their build it’s a massive hit to me and will further make it harder to finish my build that’s already been nerfed.

It’s almost like you are defending the changes because it’s what you wanted it. Trust me I’ll never be able to out parse you lol
It’s not my goal. I was shooting for 30-40 k max and I’m only at 25k I’m striving to focus on the solo arenas and many people like me aren’t hitting high dps or even affect your groups what so ever.

Make a parse on 21M trial dummy not 3/6M one. It gives more reliable starting point to know where are You at with Your DPS.

I unfortunately don’t have one and my guild as far as I know doesn’t have one either.

Are you on PC? If so everyone has access to a house with every crafting station, parse dummy, assistant, mundus stone, and anything else one might need via the HHouse addon. All it does is add a command (/hhouse) that teleports you to a fully stocked house.

I am on pc. I’m an old gen x boomer so I don’t really use add ons but I’ll look into it.

It's an extremely lightweight addon (since it's merely adding a command to teleport to a house). Completely unintrusive (no UI elements or anything) and all of the amenities provide a perfect place to test different setups or practice your rotations. Definitely recommend it, if for no other reason then to have easy access to all of the mundus stones and crafting stations.

Cool is there a video or directions how to install this ? I’ll admit I’ve never even used a mod in Skyrim and I have over 6000 hours in that game across many platforms and countless hours in Daggerfall and morrowind.

I’m not very tech savvy but I’ll give it a go if there is a clearly instruction how to do it,

To manually install your AddOns:

1. Download your chosen addon

2. Extract the files to a folder on your desktop. (This is important - ESO won't recognize a zipped addon folder. Extracting is as easy as opening the zipped file, and copy pasting the folder inside onto your desktop)

3. Open your ESO folder.

If using a PC, the typical default install path is: C:\Users\< username >\Documents\Elder Scrolls Online\live\

Or you can use the windows variable by pasting it into windows explorer: %userprofile%\documents

If using a Macintosh, the typical default install path is: ~/Documents/Elder Scrolls Online/live/

4. In the 'live' folder, create a new folder called AddOns (if it doesn’t already exist)

5. Open the AddOns folder

6. Copy the files from the folder on your desktop into the AddOns folder
The link to the addon download is found at https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info2750-PorttoHsHouse.html

If you don't want to manually install it, you can opt to install Minion instead (just Google Minion Addons). Once Minion is installed, it should automatically detect ESO. You can then install the addon by searching for "Port to H's House"

isadoraisacat

Sorry that’s like speaking Greek to me. You lost me at c/users

I don’t even know where to download the add on from.

This is why I never bothered to do this.
I thought there was some program that you download that does it for you?

CameraBeardThePirate

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Sorry that’s like speaking Greek to me. You lost me at c/users

I don’t even know where to download the add on from.

This is why I never bothered to do this.
I thought there was some program that you download that does it for you?

I provided the link, and also explained the Minion option.

Minion can be found here: https://minion.mmoui.com/

Download it, it should automatically detect the ESO install. Then just go to the "Find More Addons" or "Install Addons" or whatever it's called - the tab should have a magnifying glass. Search for "H's House" or "Port To H's House" and click install.

isadoraisacat

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Sorry that’s like speaking Greek to me. You lost me at c/users

I don’t even know where to download the add on from.

This is why I never bothered to do this.
I thought there was some program that you download that does it for you?

I provided the link, and also explained the Minion option.

Minion can be found here: https://minion.mmoui.com/

Download it, it should automatically detect the ESO install. Then just go to the "Find More Addons" or "Install Addons" or whatever it's called - the tab should have a magnifying glass. Search for "H's House" or "Port To H's House" and click install.

I don’t understand who’s house is this ?
That it ports you too. Is it even allowed ?

I’ll check to see if one of my 3 guilds has these things first before I do any of this stuff.

CameraBeardThePirate

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Sorry that’s like speaking Greek to me. You lost me at c/users

I don’t even know where to download the add on from.

This is why I never bothered to do this.
I thought there was some program that you download that does it for you?

I provided the link, and also explained the Minion option.

Minion can be found here: https://minion.mmoui.com/

Download it, it should automatically detect the ESO install. Then just go to the "Find More Addons" or "Install Addons" or whatever it's called - the tab should have a magnifying glass. Search for "H's House" or "Port To H's House" and click install.

I don’t understand who’s house is this ?
That it ports you too. Is it even allowed ?

It is H's House (H is their name - i think their full username is HUMILIATION or something). They're the creator of the addon. The command it adds to the game (/hhouse) is the same as right clicking on H's name and then porting to their primary residence. It is allowed, as H is the one who made the addon and allows their house to be used by the public.

isadoraisacat

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Sorry that’s like speaking Greek to me. You lost me at c/users

I don’t even know where to download the add on from.

This is why I never bothered to do this.
I thought there was some program that you download that does it for you?

I provided the link, and also explained the Minion option.

Minion can be found here: https://minion.mmoui.com/

Download it, it should automatically detect the ESO install. Then just go to the "Find More Addons" or "Install Addons" or whatever it's called - the tab should have a magnifying glass. Search for "H's House" or "Port To H's House" and click install.

I don’t understand who’s house is this ?
That it ports you too. Is it even allowed ?

It is H's House (H is their name - i think their full username is HUMILIATION or something). They're the creator of the addon. The command it adds to the game (/hhouse) is the same as right clicking on H's name and then porting to their primary residence. It is allowed, as H is the one who made the addon and allows their house to be used by the public.

Ah ok wouldn’t it be just easier to add them to your friends list and port to their house ? Or them make a guild with the same house as the guild house ?

SerafinaWaterstar

I do not understand the devs reasoning - so what if the HA builds were reaching or in rare cases surpassing LA builds?

Where does it state that LA builds are the ‘sanctioned’ build?

This is not, as many have said previously, “Play how you like” 🤣

(And way to go to discriminate against those that find LA weaving/bar swapping difficult due to disabilities)

CameraBeardThePirate

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Sorry that’s like speaking Greek to me. You lost me at c/users

I don’t even know where to download the add on from.

This is why I never bothered to do this.
I thought there was some program that you download that does it for you?

I provided the link, and also explained the Minion option.

Minion can be found here: https://minion.mmoui.com/

Download it, it should automatically detect the ESO install. Then just go to the "Find More Addons" or "Install Addons" or whatever it's called - the tab should have a magnifying glass. Search for "H's House" or "Port To H's House" and click install.

I don’t understand who’s house is this ?
That it ports you too. Is it even allowed ?

It is H's House (H is their name - i think their full username is HUMILIATION or something). They're the creator of the addon. The command it adds to the game (/hhouse) is the same as right clicking on H's name and then porting to their primary residence. It is allowed, as H is the one who made the addon and allows their house to be used by the public.

Ah ok wouldn’t it be just easier to add them to your friends list and port to their house ? Or them make a guild with the same house as the guild house ?

Technically yes, but they made the addon so that anyone can access the house - regardless of friend/guild status. Besides, guilds and friends lists are limited, and this way means that an unlimited amount of people can benefit off of their generosity.

isadoraisacat

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

I do not understand the devs reasoning - so what if the HA builds were reaching or in rare cases surpassing LA builds?

Where does it state that LA builds are the ‘sanctioned’ build?

This is not, as many have said previously, “Play how you like” 🤣

(And way to go to discriminate against those that find LA weaving/bar swapping difficult due to disabilities)

It says on the steam page basically play how you want. So I’d gather there is no developer determined set way to play. So I’d hope they would reconsider these changes.

isadoraisacat

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Sorry that’s like speaking Greek to me. You lost me at c/users

I don’t even know where to download the add on from.

This is why I never bothered to do this.
I thought there was some program that you download that does it for you?

I provided the link, and also explained the Minion option.

Minion can be found here: https://minion.mmoui.com/

Download it, it should automatically detect the ESO install. Then just go to the "Find More Addons" or "Install Addons" or whatever it's called - the tab should have a magnifying glass. Search for "H's House" or "Port To H's House" and click install.

I don’t understand who’s house is this ?
That it ports you too. Is it even allowed ?

It is H's House (H is their name - i think their full username is HUMILIATION or something). They're the creator of the addon. The command it adds to the game (/hhouse) is the same as right clicking on H's name and then porting to their primary residence. It is allowed, as H is the one who made the addon and allows their house to be used by the public.

Ah ok wouldn’t it be just easier to add them to your friends list and port to their house ? Or them make a guild with the same house as the guild house ?

Technically yes, but they made the addon so that anyone can access the house - regardless of friend/guild status. Besides, guilds and friends lists are limited, and this way means that an unlimited amount of people can benefit off of their generosity.

Ok gotcha

jaws343

isadoraisacat wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

I do not understand the devs reasoning - so what if the HA builds were reaching or in rare cases surpassing LA builds?

Where does it state that LA builds are the ‘sanctioned’ build?

This is not, as many have said previously, “Play how you like” 🤣

(And way to go to discriminate against those that find LA weaving/bar swapping difficult due to disabilities)

It says on the steam page basically play how you want. So I’d gather there is no developer determined set way to play. So I’d hope they would reconsider these changes.

Play how you want only means that there is various levels of content for different people.

Do you want to fish, you can do that. Do you want to pick flowers, you can do that too. PVP, Trials, solo content, overland questing, you can do all of that as well. You can pick the things you want to do, and do those things.

Play how you want DOES NOT mean that you can do all of those things with anything. You need to be properly equipped/prepared for them. You may want to fish, but you must have the necessary bait to do so. You may want to pick flowers, but certain CP and skill points are going to be necessary to be most efficient at it.

You can PVP, but if you don't equip yourself properly, you are not going to be effective.

Play how you want does not mean that whatever way you want to approach the different parts of content available are going to work. You can farm gear all you want, but it won't win you a ToT match or build your ToT deck. Just like being ill-equipped for PVE content isn't going to get you through that content.

That is all, it is available for you to do. But you still have to prepare yourself properly for it.

isadoraisacat

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

I do not understand the devs reasoning - so what if the HA builds were reaching or in rare cases surpassing LA builds?

Where does it state that LA builds are the ‘sanctioned’ build?

This is not, as many have said previously, “Play how you like” 🤣

(And way to go to discriminate against those that find LA weaving/bar swapping difficult due to disabilities)

It says on the steam page basically play how you want. So I’d gather there is no developer determined set way to play. So I’d hope they would reconsider these changes.

Play how you want only means that there is various levels of content for different people.

Do you want to fish, you can do that. Do you want to pick flowers, you can do that too. PVP, Trials, solo content, overland questing, you can do all of that as well. You can pick the things you want to do, and do those things.

Play how you want DOES NOT mean that you can do all of those things with anything. You need to be properly equipped/prepared for them. You may want to fish, but you must have the necessary bait to do so. You may want to pick flowers, but certain CP and skill points are going to be necessary to be most efficient at it.

You can PVP, but if you don't equip yourself properly, you are not going to be effective.

Play how you want does not mean that whatever way you want to approach the different parts of content available are going to work. You can farm gear all you want, but it won't win you a ToT match or build your ToT deck. Just like being ill-equipped for PVE content isn't going to get you through that content.

That is all, it is available for you to do. But you still have to prepare yourself properly for it.

I don’t see a “play how you want as long as it’s weaving” in this anywhere.

This is not what we are talking about.
It says mix different armors and skills
Together for your own play style what is storm master / sergeant and oaken soul? And the associated dots we use with the build it’s all armors and skills. Seems like we are following zos meaning perfectly here with a HA build.

loveeso

Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7854085/#Comment_7854085

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

To summarize:
Based on the data collected, it appears that the proposed changes will result in a significant nerf to the maximum achievable Heavy Attack damage, with a reduction of approximately -24%. It's important to note that this test was conducted on a stationary target. In actual combat scenarios, Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

I don’t think people realize how deadly of a hit this is giving to ha builds. I think it may render some of our builds for us low dps solo players useless.

I guess it’s back to sucking wind and doing quests with as little combat as possible now and not being able to use all the content I pay for. Unless they review these things and decide not to move forward with this.

Personally I was happy with my main character the dps I was getting for now and the content I was able to do because of it it (even tho it still needs a ton of work I was Still is a much better place I’d never reach other wise without this ).

Sorry, but the test you quoted is not accurate. One can't test the DPS loss like that because it will not be an accurate assessment on the impact of the build. You need to test the entire build or the numbers will be greatly skewed.

When testing a full build on PTS vs Live, you only see a 6% damage loss. This is because, while the nerf to Storm Master's may impact your HA damage by 20% or so, wearing it in tandem with other sets will mitigate that loss. HA damage also only accounts for around 70% of the DPS of a HA build, so your overall dps is not impacted by 20% like the quoted test states.

You can check my post in the PTS forum for an accurate comparison between full parses.

If you are referring to your post here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/631804/heavy-attack-nerf-by-the-numbers/p1

then there is no accurate comparison between full parses there. Just woulda, coulda, shoulda .

The test you criticised as “inaccurate” was designed and performed in order for us to know the real impact of these changes on HA builds. It was designed to be universal, so that it does not make assumptions with regard to what class, skills or rotations people using HA builds would or should use. All this was clearly explained in the test description.
Last but not least, the test was designed and executed so that we can stop “guesstimating” (what you called “math” in your post the link to which I posted above) and instead acquire REAL data.

I remember you have already been asked in this thread to test your guesses re. “no more than 6% DPS nerf” on the PTS and provide us with some real data, like a parse showing 95.28k you claim your chosen 101k+ build “should” achieve on the PTS. That would still mean nothing more than “the impact of these nerfs on this particular build (out of tens of different builds others may prefer) is 6%” but that at least would be a useful data point for us. As for guesstimations and woulda, coulda, shoulda, these aren’t worth much when they collide with hard data.

As for your comment about “the test is wrong because wearing SM in tandem with other sets will mitigate that loss” it doesn’t make much sense. In the test description it was clearly stated that SM was worn together with other sets - the best sets in slot for HA builds - haven’t you noticed that?
Speaking of SM, I seem to remember that earlier in this thread you claimed one could replace SM with UI which would mitigate the nerf - well, the test you just criticised did take your proposed solution into account and demonstrated that UI was performing worse than SM, even after the nerf, so that statement was also factually incorrect.

Let me point out just one last flaw in what you wrote. Making hypotheses about a single build you selected and extrapolating that on all the other HA builds people may want to play doesn’t make sense at all, even if you decided to go and test it instead of guesstimating. Not everyone who likes the HA playstyle wants to use an Altmer sorcerer without self-heals, weaving Wall, Unstable Familiar, Twilight Tormentor, and Daedric Prey every six seconds between heavy attacks. Some people don’t like to be Gandalf with imps. Others don’t even like to be a sorcerer - they prefer something else, for example a nightblade. Others just want to do what HA-haters kept accusing them of for the last few months and… use just one button to do damage. Really, if one follows your line of reasoning, one might just as well say: “After the nerf I will still be able to do 120k+ on my Zaan+Rele+Pillar daggers & greatsword HA build because I only heavy-attack once per 20 seconds so this 20-30% nerf to heavy attacks, which only constitute 1% of my overall DPS, will decrease my DPS by 0.2%. I just proved that the HA nerf is not over 20%, it’s just 0.2%”. I hope it’s clear now that there are serious methodological errors in what you wrote.

Next post: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7857529/#Comment_7857529

jaws343

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

I do not understand the devs reasoning - so what if the HA builds were reaching or in rare cases surpassing LA builds?

Where does it state that LA builds are the ‘sanctioned’ build?

This is not, as many have said previously, “Play how you like” 🤣

(And way to go to discriminate against those that find LA weaving/bar swapping difficult due to disabilities)

It says on the steam page basically play how you want. So I’d gather there is no developer determined set way to play. So I’d hope they would reconsider these changes.

Play how you want only means that there is various levels of content for different people.

Do you want to fish, you can do that. Do you want to pick flowers, you can do that too. PVP, Trials, solo content, overland questing, you can do all of that as well. You can pick the things you want to do, and do those things.

Play how you want DOES NOT mean that you can do all of those things with anything. You need to be properly equipped/prepared for them. You may want to fish, but you must have the necessary bait to do so. You may want to pick flowers, but certain CP and skill points are going to be necessary to be most efficient at it.

You can PVP, but if you don't equip yourself properly, you are not going to be effective.

Play how you want does not mean that whatever way you want to approach the different parts of content available are going to work. You can farm gear all you want, but it won't win you a ToT match or build your ToT deck. Just like being ill-equipped for PVE content isn't going to get you through that content.

That is all, it is available for you to do. But you still have to prepare yourself properly for it.

I don’t see a “play how you want as long as it’s weaving” in this anywhere.

This is not what we are talking about.
It says mix different armors and skills
Together for your own play style what is storm master / sergeant and oaken soul? And the associated dots we use with the build it’s all armors and skills. Seems like we are following zos meaning perfectly here with a HA build.

Mix any armors and skills. But if we can't agree that someone running Armor Master and Adept rider, and using only tank and healing skills, is going to be flat out awful in a DPS role in PVE content, then I really don't even know how to continue this conversation.

You can play any content you want, you can wear any set or no set at all. But you still need to make sure what you are wearing is effective for the content you want to do. It's that simple.

None of this even matters, because Storm Masters and Sergeant's will still be perfectly viable for vet content, including trials, next patch. But, you can also wear another set instead of Storm Masters and be just as viable. Because the DPs loss isn't that bad. It's not bad at all.

I even did some math in the other thread, I'll even add some more here.

On LIVE right now, on a Storm Master and Sergeants Oaken sorc build.

With pets out, but Zero skills being activated. Just holding the heavy attack button. The build does 29K DPS on a 3 million dummy. The base one, with no pen or debuffs. 29K DPS.

Activating skills bumps that up to 33K DPS. So, Heavy attacks+Storm Master +Sergeants+Shock enchant = 29K DPS.

That combo is roughly 87% of the 33K DPs parse.

So, a baseline of 29K DPS on that 3M with doing nothing but holding heavy attack. That portion of the parse is the only part that is losing damage. So let's say the doomsaying 20% amount that keeps getting thrown around, that means that portion will do 23.2K DPS + now the skills portion of the parse, you get 28.2K DPS, an overall 15% nerf to a full parse.

That 15% is worst case scenario, and as others have already shown, not the actual case. But even so, using your 25K limit, that 15% nerf is 21K damage.

Honestly, if people are going to reject a player for 21K DPS on a 3M dummy, they were going to reject you for 25K. Especially when a 29K parse on a 3M is possible without activating any skills and just heavy attacking.

At the same time, plenty of groups literally don't care as long as you aren't dying or not following mechanics.

isadoraisacat

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

I do not understand the devs reasoning - so what if the HA builds were reaching or in rare cases surpassing LA builds?

Where does it state that LA builds are the ‘sanctioned’ build?

This is not, as many have said previously, “Play how you like” 🤣

(And way to go to discriminate against those that find LA weaving/bar swapping difficult due to disabilities)

It says on the steam page basically play how you want. So I’d gather there is no developer determined set way to play. So I’d hope they would reconsider these changes.

Play how you want only means that there is various levels of content for different people.

Do you want to fish, you can do that. Do you want to pick flowers, you can do that too. PVP, Trials, solo content, overland questing, you can do all of that as well. You can pick the things you want to do, and do those things.

Play how you want DOES NOT mean that you can do all of those things with anything. You need to be properly equipped/prepared for them. You may want to fish, but you must have the necessary bait to do so. You may want to pick flowers, but certain CP and skill points are going to be necessary to be most efficient at it.

You can PVP, but if you don't equip yourself properly, you are not going to be effective.

Play how you want does not mean that whatever way you want to approach the different parts of content available are going to work. You can farm gear all you want, but it won't win you a ToT match or build your ToT deck. Just like being ill-equipped for PVE content isn't going to get you through that content.

That is all, it is available for you to do. But you still have to prepare yourself properly for it.

I don’t see a “play how you want as long as it’s weaving” in this anywhere.

This is not what we are talking about.
It says mix different armors and skills
Together for your own play style what is storm master / sergeant and oaken soul? And the associated dots we use with the build it’s all armors and skills. Seems like we are following zos meaning perfectly here with a HA build.

Mix any armors and skills. But if we can't agree that someone running Armor Master and Adept rider, and using only tank and healing skills, is going to be flat out awful in a DPS role in PVE content, then I really don't even know how to continue this conversation.

You can play any content you want, you can wear any set or no set at all. But you still need to make sure what you are wearing is effective for the content you want to do. It's that simple.

None of this even matters, because Storm Masters and Sergeant's will still be perfectly viable for vet content, including trials, next patch. But, you can also wear another set instead of Storm Masters and be just as viable. Because the DPs loss isn't that bad. It's not bad at all.

I even did some math in the other thread, I'll even add some more here.

On LIVE right now, on a Storm Master and Sergeants Oaken sorc build.

With pets out, but Zero skills being activated. Just holding the heavy attack button. The build does 29K DPS on a 3 million dummy. The base one, with no pen or debuffs. 29K DPS.

Activating skills bumps that up to 33K DPS. So, Heavy attacks+Storm Master +Sergeants+Shock enchant = 29K DPS.

That combo is roughly 87% of the 33K DPs parse.

So, a baseline of 29K DPS on that 3M with doing nothing but holding heavy attack. That portion of the parse is the only part that is losing damage. So let's say the doomsaying 20% amount that keeps getting thrown around, that means that portion will do 23.2K DPS + now the skills portion of the parse, you get 28.2K DPS, an overall 15% nerf to a full parse.

That 15% is worst case scenario, and as others have already shown, not the actual case. But even so, using your 25K limit, that 15% nerf is 21K damage.

Honestly, if people are going to reject a player for 21K DPS on a 3M dummy, they were going to reject you for 25K. Especially when a 29K parse on a 3M is possible without activating any skills and just heavy attacking.

At the same time, plenty of groups literally don't care as long as you aren't dying or not following mechanics.

Clearly the set up was affective we wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t the case.

[snip]

[edited for baiting]


Edit:

What is “baiting” im not “bating” anyone I don’t even know what that means. I’m saying the reason why everyone is upset over these changes is this build is affective they they are upset it may be less affective.

jaws343

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

I do not understand the devs reasoning - so what if the HA builds were reaching or in rare cases surpassing LA builds?

Where does it state that LA builds are the ‘sanctioned’ build?

This is not, as many have said previously, “Play how you like” 🤣

(And way to go to discriminate against those that find LA weaving/bar swapping difficult due to disabilities)

It says on the steam page basically play how you want. So I’d gather there is no developer determined set way to play. So I’d hope they would reconsider these changes.

Play how you want only means that there is various levels of content for different people.

Do you want to fish, you can do that. Do you want to pick flowers, you can do that too. PVP, Trials, solo content, overland questing, you can do all of that as well. You can pick the things you want to do, and do those things.

Play how you want DOES NOT mean that you can do all of those things with anything. You need to be properly equipped/prepared for them. You may want to fish, but you must have the necessary bait to do so. You may want to pick flowers, but certain CP and skill points are going to be necessary to be most efficient at it.

You can PVP, but if you don't equip yourself properly, you are not going to be effective.

Play how you want does not mean that whatever way you want to approach the different parts of content available are going to work. You can farm gear all you want, but it won't win you a ToT match or build your ToT deck. Just like being ill-equipped for PVE content isn't going to get you through that content.

That is all, it is available for you to do. But you still have to prepare yourself properly for it.

I don’t see a “play how you want as long as it’s weaving” in this anywhere.

This is not what we are talking about.
It says mix different armors and skills
Together for your own play style what is storm master / sergeant and oaken soul? And the associated dots we use with the build it’s all armors and skills. Seems like we are following zos meaning perfectly here with a HA build.

Mix any armors and skills. But if we can't agree that someone running Armor Master and Adept rider, and using only tank and healing skills, is going to be flat out awful in a DPS role in PVE content, then I really don't even know how to continue this conversation.

You can play any content you want, you can wear any set or no set at all. But you still need to make sure what you are wearing is effective for the content you want to do. It's that simple.

None of this even matters, because Storm Masters and Sergeant's will still be perfectly viable for vet content, including trials, next patch. But, you can also wear another set instead of Storm Masters and be just as viable. Because the DPs loss isn't that bad. It's not bad at all.

I even did some math in the other thread, I'll even add some more here.

On LIVE right now, on a Storm Master and Sergeants Oaken sorc build.

With pets out, but Zero skills being activated. Just holding the heavy attack button. The build does 29K DPS on a 3 million dummy. The base one, with no pen or debuffs. 29K DPS.

Activating skills bumps that up to 33K DPS. So, Heavy attacks+Storm Master +Sergeants+Shock enchant = 29K DPS.

That combo is roughly 87% of the 33K DPs parse.

So, a baseline of 29K DPS on that 3M with doing nothing but holding heavy attack. That portion of the parse is the only part that is losing damage. So let's say the doomsaying 20% amount that keeps getting thrown around, that means that portion will do 23.2K DPS + now the skills portion of the parse, you get 28.2K DPS, an overall 15% nerf to a full parse.

That 15% is worst case scenario, and as others have already shown, not the actual case. But even so, using your 25K limit, that 15% nerf is 21K damage.

Honestly, if people are going to reject a player for 21K DPS on a 3M dummy, they were going to reject you for 25K. Especially when a 29K parse on a 3M is possible without activating any skills and just heavy attacking.

At the same time, plenty of groups literally don't care as long as you aren't dying or not following mechanics.

Clearly the set up was affective we wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t the case.
[snip]

I am literally showing you the numbers from the oakenbuild I use and have saved in my armorer. I cleared VMA on it this morning for my best score ever, and I run it in vet trials.

The nerf in PTS is nothing of any import on the build. It will be fine post nerf and still be stronger than the average solo DPS setup.

If we really want to make a comparison, my two bar solo build also does vet content, including vet trials and dungeons, and barely does 22K DPS on the 3M dummy. This heavy attack build does 10K more DPS, and even after the nerf will still do at least 5K more DPS. And no-one has turned down my solo build for vet content because I know how to do the role and I don't try to do trifecta prog groups. I play with like-minded players. And if your build is doing 20K+ DPS on a 3M dummy, it is effective enough for all content in the game.

isadoraisacat

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

I do not understand the devs reasoning - so what if the HA builds were reaching or in rare cases surpassing LA builds?

Where does it state that LA builds are the ‘sanctioned’ build?

This is not, as many have said previously, “Play how you like” 🤣

(And way to go to discriminate against those that find LA weaving/bar swapping difficult due to disabilities)

It says on the steam page basically play how you want. So I’d gather there is no developer determined set way to play. So I’d hope they would reconsider these changes.

Play how you want only means that there is various levels of content for different people.

Do you want to fish, you can do that. Do you want to pick flowers, you can do that too. PVP, Trials, solo content, overland questing, you can do all of that as well. You can pick the things you want to do, and do those things.

Play how you want DOES NOT mean that you can do all of those things with anything. You need to be properly equipped/prepared for them. You may want to fish, but you must have the necessary bait to do so. You may want to pick flowers, but certain CP and skill points are going to be necessary to be most efficient at it.

You can PVP, but if you don't equip yourself properly, you are not going to be effective.

Play how you want does not mean that whatever way you want to approach the different parts of content available are going to work. You can farm gear all you want, but it won't win you a ToT match or build your ToT deck. Just like being ill-equipped for PVE content isn't going to get you through that content.

That is all, it is available for you to do. But you still have to prepare yourself properly for it.

I don’t see a “play how you want as long as it’s weaving” in this anywhere.

This is not what we are talking about.
It says mix different armors and skills
Together for your own play style what is storm master / sergeant and oaken soul? And the associated dots we use with the build it’s all armors and skills. Seems like we are following zos meaning perfectly here with a HA build.

Mix any armors and skills. But if we can't agree that someone running Armor Master and Adept rider, and using only tank and healing skills, is going to be flat out awful in a DPS role in PVE content, then I really don't even know how to continue this conversation.

You can play any content you want, you can wear any set or no set at all. But you still need to make sure what you are wearing is effective for the content you want to do. It's that simple.

None of this even matters, because Storm Masters and Sergeant's will still be perfectly viable for vet content, including trials, next patch. But, you can also wear another set instead of Storm Masters and be just as viable. Because the DPs loss isn't that bad. It's not bad at all.

I even did some math in the other thread, I'll even add some more here.

On LIVE right now, on a Storm Master and Sergeants Oaken sorc build.

With pets out, but Zero skills being activated. Just holding the heavy attack button. The build does 29K DPS on a 3 million dummy. The base one, with no pen or debuffs. 29K DPS.

Activating skills bumps that up to 33K DPS. So, Heavy attacks+Storm Master +Sergeants+Shock enchant = 29K DPS.

That combo is roughly 87% of the 33K DPs parse.

So, a baseline of 29K DPS on that 3M with doing nothing but holding heavy attack. That portion of the parse is the only part that is losing damage. So let's say the doomsaying 20% amount that keeps getting thrown around, that means that portion will do 23.2K DPS + now the skills portion of the parse, you get 28.2K DPS, an overall 15% nerf to a full parse.

That 15% is worst case scenario, and as others have already shown, not the actual case. But even so, using your 25K limit, that 15% nerf is 21K damage.

Honestly, if people are going to reject a player for 21K DPS on a 3M dummy, they were going to reject you for 25K. Especially when a 29K parse on a 3M is possible without activating any skills and just heavy attacking.

At the same time, plenty of groups literally don't care as long as you aren't dying or not following mechanics.

Clearly the set up was affective we wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t the case.
[snip]

I am literally showing you the numbers from the oakenbuild I use and have saved in my armorer. I cleared VMA on it this morning for my best score ever, and I run it in vet trials.

The nerf in PTS is nothing of any import on the build. It will be fine post nerf and still be stronger than the average solo DPS setup.

If we really want to make a comparison, my two bar solo build also does vet content, including vet trials and dungeons, and barely does 22K DPS on the 3M dummy. This heavy attack build does 10K more DPS, and even after the nerf will still do at least 5K more DPS. And no-one has turned down my solo build for vet content because I know how to do the role and I don't try to do trifecta prog groups. I play with like-minded players. And if your build is doing 20K+ DPS on a 3M dummy, it is effective enough for all content in the game.

And I’m literally sharing my experiences that I’ve been bullied for using this build. I’ve been kicked out a group dungeons at the last boss and mocked.

I don’t know which dummy is 3m I’m referring to the standard skeleton dummy not the parsing high end one with all the buffs I never did that dummy as I don’t have one.

You can’t compare your self to me we are different people different players with different abilities different disabilities and different levels of experience.

jaws343

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

I do not understand the devs reasoning - so what if the HA builds were reaching or in rare cases surpassing LA builds?

Where does it state that LA builds are the ‘sanctioned’ build?

This is not, as many have said previously, “Play how you like” 🤣

(And way to go to discriminate against those that find LA weaving/bar swapping difficult due to disabilities)

It says on the steam page basically play how you want. So I’d gather there is no developer determined set way to play. So I’d hope they would reconsider these changes.

Play how you want only means that there is various levels of content for different people.

Do you want to fish, you can do that. Do you want to pick flowers, you can do that too. PVP, Trials, solo content, overland questing, you can do all of that as well. You can pick the things you want to do, and do those things.

Play how you want DOES NOT mean that you can do all of those things with anything. You need to be properly equipped/prepared for them. You may want to fish, but you must have the necessary bait to do so. You may want to pick flowers, but certain CP and skill points are going to be necessary to be most efficient at it.

You can PVP, but if you don't equip yourself properly, you are not going to be effective.

Play how you want does not mean that whatever way you want to approach the different parts of content available are going to work. You can farm gear all you want, but it won't win you a ToT match or build your ToT deck. Just like being ill-equipped for PVE content isn't going to get you through that content.

That is all, it is available for you to do. But you still have to prepare yourself properly for it.

I don’t see a “play how you want as long as it’s weaving” in this anywhere.

This is not what we are talking about.
It says mix different armors and skills
Together for your own play style what is storm master / sergeant and oaken soul? And the associated dots we use with the build it’s all armors and skills. Seems like we are following zos meaning perfectly here with a HA build.

Mix any armors and skills. But if we can't agree that someone running Armor Master and Adept rider, and using only tank and healing skills, is going to be flat out awful in a DPS role in PVE content, then I really don't even know how to continue this conversation.

You can play any content you want, you can wear any set or no set at all. But you still need to make sure what you are wearing is effective for the content you want to do. It's that simple.

None of this even matters, because Storm Masters and Sergeant's will still be perfectly viable for vet content, including trials, next patch. But, you can also wear another set instead of Storm Masters and be just as viable. Because the DPs loss isn't that bad. It's not bad at all.

I even did some math in the other thread, I'll even add some more here.

On LIVE right now, on a Storm Master and Sergeants Oaken sorc build.

With pets out, but Zero skills being activated. Just holding the heavy attack button. The build does 29K DPS on a 3 million dummy. The base one, with no pen or debuffs. 29K DPS.

Activating skills bumps that up to 33K DPS. So, Heavy attacks+Storm Master +Sergeants+Shock enchant = 29K DPS.

That combo is roughly 87% of the 33K DPs parse.

So, a baseline of 29K DPS on that 3M with doing nothing but holding heavy attack. That portion of the parse is the only part that is losing damage. So let's say the doomsaying 20% amount that keeps getting thrown around, that means that portion will do 23.2K DPS + now the skills portion of the parse, you get 28.2K DPS, an overall 15% nerf to a full parse.

That 15% is worst case scenario, and as others have already shown, not the actual case. But even so, using your 25K limit, that 15% nerf is 21K damage.

Honestly, if people are going to reject a player for 21K DPS on a 3M dummy, they were going to reject you for 25K. Especially when a 29K parse on a 3M is possible without activating any skills and just heavy attacking.

At the same time, plenty of groups literally don't care as long as you aren't dying or not following mechanics.

Clearly the set up was affective we wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t the case.
[snip]

I am literally showing you the numbers from the oakenbuild I use and have saved in my armorer. I cleared VMA on it this morning for my best score ever, and I run it in vet trials.

The nerf in PTS is nothing of any import on the build. It will be fine post nerf and still be stronger than the average solo DPS setup.

If we really want to make a comparison, my two bar solo build also does vet content, including vet trials and dungeons, and barely does 22K DPS on the 3M dummy. This heavy attack build does 10K more DPS, and even after the nerf will still do at least 5K more DPS. And no-one has turned down my solo build for vet content because I know how to do the role and I don't try to do trifecta prog groups. I play with like-minded players. And if your build is doing 20K+ DPS on a 3M dummy, it is effective enough for all content in the game.

And I’m literally sharing my experiences that I’ve been bullied for using this build. I’ve been kicked out a group dungeons at the last boss and mocked.

I don’t know which dummy is 3m I’m referring to the standard skeleton dummy not the parsing high end one with all the buffs I never did that dummy as I don’t have one.

You can’t compare your self to me we are different people different players with different abilities different disabilities and different levels of experience.

The skeleton is the 3M. 3M refers to the health the dummy has.

Honestly, personal experiences and anecdotes are irrelevant. You get bullied for using the build. Find better groups to run the build with. I don't get bullied for using the build, because I run with like minded people. It's is an easy fix to make. Don't play the game with people who don't want to play it with you the way you want to play it.

In the case of this nerf, the only thing that matters are objective numbers. And objectively, oakensoul heavy builds are going to be fine, at all levels of play. And objectively, I can hold 1 single button down for 2 minutes just as much as you can on a heavy attack build. And objectively on an oakensorc build, doing so gives you 29K DPS on the 3M dummy, without pressing a single skill. This does not require effort, this does not require timing. This require clicking and holding a trigger or mouse button, which is the minimum requirement for a heavy attack builds functionality.

isadoraisacat

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

I do not understand the devs reasoning - so what if the HA builds were reaching or in rare cases surpassing LA builds?

Where does it state that LA builds are the ‘sanctioned’ build?

This is not, as many have said previously, “Play how you like” 🤣

(And way to go to discriminate against those that find LA weaving/bar swapping difficult due to disabilities)

It says on the steam page basically play how you want. So I’d gather there is no developer determined set way to play. So I’d hope they would reconsider these changes.

Play how you want only means that there is various levels of content for different people.

Do you want to fish, you can do that. Do you want to pick flowers, you can do that too. PVP, Trials, solo content, overland questing, you can do all of that as well. You can pick the things you want to do, and do those things.

Play how you want DOES NOT mean that you can do all of those things with anything. You need to be properly equipped/prepared for them. You may want to fish, but you must have the necessary bait to do so. You may want to pick flowers, but certain CP and skill points are going to be necessary to be most efficient at it.

You can PVP, but if you don't equip yourself properly, you are not going to be effective.

Play how you want does not mean that whatever way you want to approach the different parts of content available are going to work. You can farm gear all you want, but it won't win you a ToT match or build your ToT deck. Just like being ill-equipped for PVE content isn't going to get you through that content.

That is all, it is available for you to do. But you still have to prepare yourself properly for it.

I don’t see a “play how you want as long as it’s weaving” in this anywhere.

This is not what we are talking about.
It says mix different armors and skills
Together for your own play style what is storm master / sergeant and oaken soul? And the associated dots we use with the build it’s all armors and skills. Seems like we are following zos meaning perfectly here with a HA build.

Mix any armors and skills. But if we can't agree that someone running Armor Master and Adept rider, and using only tank and healing skills, is going to be flat out awful in a DPS role in PVE content, then I really don't even know how to continue this conversation.

You can play any content you want, you can wear any set or no set at all. But you still need to make sure what you are wearing is effective for the content you want to do. It's that simple.

None of this even matters, because Storm Masters and Sergeant's will still be perfectly viable for vet content, including trials, next patch. But, you can also wear another set instead of Storm Masters and be just as viable. Because the DPs loss isn't that bad. It's not bad at all.

I even did some math in the other thread, I'll even add some more here.

On LIVE right now, on a Storm Master and Sergeants Oaken sorc build.

With pets out, but Zero skills being activated. Just holding the heavy attack button. The build does 29K DPS on a 3 million dummy. The base one, with no pen or debuffs. 29K DPS.

Activating skills bumps that up to 33K DPS. So, Heavy attacks+Storm Master +Sergeants+Shock enchant = 29K DPS.

That combo is roughly 87% of the 33K DPs parse.

So, a baseline of 29K DPS on that 3M with doing nothing but holding heavy attack. That portion of the parse is the only part that is losing damage. So let's say the doomsaying 20% amount that keeps getting thrown around, that means that portion will do 23.2K DPS + now the skills portion of the parse, you get 28.2K DPS, an overall 15% nerf to a full parse.

That 15% is worst case scenario, and as others have already shown, not the actual case. But even so, using your 25K limit, that 15% nerf is 21K damage.

Honestly, if people are going to reject a player for 21K DPS on a 3M dummy, they were going to reject you for 25K. Especially when a 29K parse on a 3M is possible without activating any skills and just heavy attacking.

At the same time, plenty of groups literally don't care as long as you aren't dying or not following mechanics.

Clearly the set up was affective we wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t the case.
[snip]

I am literally showing you the numbers from the oakenbuild I use and have saved in my armorer. I cleared VMA on it this morning for my best score ever, and I run it in vet trials.

The nerf in PTS is nothing of any import on the build. It will be fine post nerf and still be stronger than the average solo DPS setup.

If we really want to make a comparison, my two bar solo build also does vet content, including vet trials and dungeons, and barely does 22K DPS on the 3M dummy. This heavy attack build does 10K more DPS, and even after the nerf will still do at least 5K more DPS. And no-one has turned down my solo build for vet content because I know how to do the role and I don't try to do trifecta prog groups. I play with like-minded players. And if your build is doing 20K+ DPS on a 3M dummy, it is effective enough for all content in the game.

And I’m literally sharing my experiences that I’ve been bullied for using this build. I’ve been kicked out a group dungeons at the last boss and mocked.

I don’t know which dummy is 3m I’m referring to the standard skeleton dummy not the parsing high end one with all the buffs I never did that dummy as I don’t have one.

You can’t compare your self to me we are different people different players with different abilities different disabilities and different levels of experience.

The skeleton is the 3M. 3M refers to the health the dummy has.

Honestly, personal experiences and anecdotes are irrelevant. You get bullied for using the build. Find better groups to run the build with. I don't get bullied for using the build, because I run with like minded people. It's is an easy fix to make. Don't play the game with people who don't want to play it with you the way you want to play it.

In the case of this nerf, the only thing that matters are objective numbers. And objectively, oakensoul heavy builds are going to be fine, at all levels of play. And objectively, I can hold 1 single button down for 2 minutes just as much as you can on a heavy attack build. And objectively on an oakensorc build, doing so gives you 29K DPS on the 3M dummy, without pressing a single skill. This does not require effort, this does not require timing. This require clicking and holding a trigger or mouse button, which is the minimum requirement for a heavy attack builds functionality.

I can’t always “find better groups” I work 7 days a week. I have a family to care for. When I come on if people in guilds aren’t on and I need transmuted to progress my character I have to deal with random people to do what I need to do. Not everyone is just online at the same time.

Everyone’s experience is relevant.
That’s just a snide thing to say.

I’m aware 3m refers to the health of the dummy im saying i use the normal skeleton one and never used the one to use referring too.

I mean if you want me to record my self playing holding down one button and not doing the damage you say ? I can gladly do it. I’m up for the challenge does anyone have a 3m dummy I can borrow ?
Becuase I bet you it will take me like 10
Minutes or more to kill it with much less dps. If I struggle on the basic skeleton.

FrancisCrawford

loveeso wrote: »

Wow, I'm pleasantly surprised by the overwhelming number of replies! Thank you to everyone who took the time to share their thoughts on this topic. It's great to see so many insightful comments.

Hopefully, ZOS will take note of the community's concerns and reconsider their proposed changes to Storm Master and Empower before they go live with Necrom. I've noticed that there have been some misunderstandings regarding the extent of the nerf, with some suggesting it's only up to around 6%. However, I want to clarify that the numbers I provided earlier are not mere estimations or guesses, but actual results obtained from testing DPS in combat. So here are the accurate numbers once again.

SM Live vs PTS
-23.99% max DPS (-17.82% avg DPS)

The above DPS loss will be even worse in actual combat scenarios, because Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

By the way, it's worth noting that the Undaunted Infiltrator set is not a viable alternative to Storm Master. In fact, it still falls short in comparison. Here's why:

SM Live vs Undaunted Infiltrator (UI) PTS
-24.96% max DPS (-20.64% avg DPS)

If you're interested in verifying these test results for yourself, it's easy to do so by logging into the PTS. Here are some more details on how to replicate the experiment:


Test Assumptions:

1. The purpose of this test is to evaluate how the proposed changes affect Heavy Attack DPS, so we are only interested in sets and abilities that are specific to Heavy Attack builds. Therefore, we will exclude sets and abilities that are not relevant to this test, such as Pillar of Nirn and Volatile Familiar.
2. To minimize confounding factors and isolate the variables under test, we need to control for various factors such as differences in builds, classes, player skill level, and random variations caused by Critical Rating and Critical Damage. The controlled variables for this experiment are:
   • The combat ruleset (live vs PTS)
   • The 5-piece body set used (Storm Master and Undaunted Infiltrator).

Body

1x L Slimecraw
1x Sergeant (heavy)
5x Strom Master or Undaunted Infiltrator (both medium)

Bar & Accessories

Sergeant's Mail (lightning, neck, ring)
Oakensoul Ring

Same abilities, attributes, CPs, mundus, and target dummy for every test build.

To minimize the impact of player-executed rotation on the test results, we used Heavy Attack weaving as the rotation for this experiment. The rotation used was as follows:

• Wall
• Heavy Attack
• Heavy Attack
• Heavy Attack
• Heavy Attack

Results - see the beginning of this post (for details please see the image)

TL;DR
To summarize:
Based on the data collected, it appears that the proposed changes will result in a significant nerf to the maximum achievable Heavy Attack damage, with a reduction of approximately -24%. It's important to note that this test was conducted on a stationary target. In actual combat scenarios, Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

Frankly, those numbers make no sense to me, unless there are bugs.

Undaunted Infiltrator -- again unless there are bugs -- has NO disadvantages vs. Storm Master other than the 2-4 piece bonuses (which in one case are actually identical). It also has an advantage in a higher tooltip, and another small advantage in the extent Storm Master's uptime is less than 100%.

jaws343

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

I do not understand the devs reasoning - so what if the HA builds were reaching or in rare cases surpassing LA builds?

Where does it state that LA builds are the ‘sanctioned’ build?

This is not, as many have said previously, “Play how you like” 🤣

(And way to go to discriminate against those that find LA weaving/bar swapping difficult due to disabilities)

It says on the steam page basically play how you want. So I’d gather there is no developer determined set way to play. So I’d hope they would reconsider these changes.

Play how you want only means that there is various levels of content for different people.

Do you want to fish, you can do that. Do you want to pick flowers, you can do that too. PVP, Trials, solo content, overland questing, you can do all of that as well. You can pick the things you want to do, and do those things.

Play how you want DOES NOT mean that you can do all of those things with anything. You need to be properly equipped/prepared for them. You may want to fish, but you must have the necessary bait to do so. You may want to pick flowers, but certain CP and skill points are going to be necessary to be most efficient at it.

You can PVP, but if you don't equip yourself properly, you are not going to be effective.

Play how you want does not mean that whatever way you want to approach the different parts of content available are going to work. You can farm gear all you want, but it won't win you a ToT match or build your ToT deck. Just like being ill-equipped for PVE content isn't going to get you through that content.

That is all, it is available for you to do. But you still have to prepare yourself properly for it.

I don’t see a “play how you want as long as it’s weaving” in this anywhere.

This is not what we are talking about.
It says mix different armors and skills
Together for your own play style what is storm master / sergeant and oaken soul? And the associated dots we use with the build it’s all armors and skills. Seems like we are following zos meaning perfectly here with a HA build.

Mix any armors and skills. But if we can't agree that someone running Armor Master and Adept rider, and using only tank and healing skills, is going to be flat out awful in a DPS role in PVE content, then I really don't even know how to continue this conversation.

You can play any content you want, you can wear any set or no set at all. But you still need to make sure what you are wearing is effective for the content you want to do. It's that simple.

None of this even matters, because Storm Masters and Sergeant's will still be perfectly viable for vet content, including trials, next patch. But, you can also wear another set instead of Storm Masters and be just as viable. Because the DPs loss isn't that bad. It's not bad at all.

I even did some math in the other thread, I'll even add some more here.

On LIVE right now, on a Storm Master and Sergeants Oaken sorc build.

With pets out, but Zero skills being activated. Just holding the heavy attack button. The build does 29K DPS on a 3 million dummy. The base one, with no pen or debuffs. 29K DPS.

Activating skills bumps that up to 33K DPS. So, Heavy attacks+Storm Master +Sergeants+Shock enchant = 29K DPS.

That combo is roughly 87% of the 33K DPs parse.

So, a baseline of 29K DPS on that 3M with doing nothing but holding heavy attack. That portion of the parse is the only part that is losing damage. So let's say the doomsaying 20% amount that keeps getting thrown around, that means that portion will do 23.2K DPS + now the skills portion of the parse, you get 28.2K DPS, an overall 15% nerf to a full parse.

That 15% is worst case scenario, and as others have already shown, not the actual case. But even so, using your 25K limit, that 15% nerf is 21K damage.

Honestly, if people are going to reject a player for 21K DPS on a 3M dummy, they were going to reject you for 25K. Especially when a 29K parse on a 3M is possible without activating any skills and just heavy attacking.

At the same time, plenty of groups literally don't care as long as you aren't dying or not following mechanics.

Clearly the set up was affective we wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t the case.
[snip]

I am literally showing you the numbers from the oakenbuild I use and have saved in my armorer. I cleared VMA on it this morning for my best score ever, and I run it in vet trials.

The nerf in PTS is nothing of any import on the build. It will be fine post nerf and still be stronger than the average solo DPS setup.

If we really want to make a comparison, my two bar solo build also does vet content, including vet trials and dungeons, and barely does 22K DPS on the 3M dummy. This heavy attack build does 10K more DPS, and even after the nerf will still do at least 5K more DPS. And no-one has turned down my solo build for vet content because I know how to do the role and I don't try to do trifecta prog groups. I play with like-minded players. And if your build is doing 20K+ DPS on a 3M dummy, it is effective enough for all content in the game.

And I’m literally sharing my experiences that I’ve been bullied for using this build. I’ve been kicked out a group dungeons at the last boss and mocked.

I don’t know which dummy is 3m I’m referring to the standard skeleton dummy not the parsing high end one with all the buffs I never did that dummy as I don’t have one.

You can’t compare your self to me we are different people different players with different abilities different disabilities and different levels of experience.

The skeleton is the 3M. 3M refers to the health the dummy has.

Honestly, personal experiences and anecdotes are irrelevant. You get bullied for using the build. Find better groups to run the build with. I don't get bullied for using the build, because I run with like minded people. It's is an easy fix to make. Don't play the game with people who don't want to play it with you the way you want to play it.

In the case of this nerf, the only thing that matters are objective numbers. And objectively, oakensoul heavy builds are going to be fine, at all levels of play. And objectively, I can hold 1 single button down for 2 minutes just as much as you can on a heavy attack build. And objectively on an oakensorc build, doing so gives you 29K DPS on the 3M dummy, without pressing a single skill. This does not require effort, this does not require timing. This require clicking and holding a trigger or mouse button, which is the minimum requirement for a heavy attack builds functionality.

I can’t always “find better groups” I work 7 days a week. I have a family to care for. When I come on if people in guilds aren’t on and I need transmuted to progress my character I have to deal with random people to do what I need to do. Not everyone is just online at the same time.

Everyone’s experience is relevant.
That’s just a snide thing to say.

I’m aware 3m refers to the health of the dummy im saying i use the normal skeleton one and never used the one to use referring too.

I mean if you want me to record my self playing holding down one button and not doing the damage you say ? I can gladly do it. I’m up for the challenge does anyone have a 3m dummy I can borrow ?
Becuase I bet you it will take me like 10
Minutes or more to kill it with much less dps. If I struggle on the basic skeleton.

The normal skeleton is the only 3M skeleton. Or at the very least, that is exactly what I am talking about.

On a trial dummy, just holding heavy attack down and not using skills nets around 70 DPS on the same build.

Galeriano

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Wow, I'm pleasantly surprised by the overwhelming number of replies! Thank you to everyone who took the time to share their thoughts on this topic. It's great to see so many insightful comments.

Hopefully, ZOS will take note of the community's concerns and reconsider their proposed changes to Storm Master and Empower before they go live with Necrom. I've noticed that there have been some misunderstandings regarding the extent of the nerf, with some suggesting it's only up to around 6%. However, I want to clarify that the numbers I provided earlier are not mere estimations or guesses, but actual results obtained from testing DPS in combat. So here are the accurate numbers once again.

SM Live vs PTS
-23.99% max DPS (-17.82% avg DPS)

The above DPS loss will be even worse in actual combat scenarios, because Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

By the way, it's worth noting that the Undaunted Infiltrator set is not a viable alternative to Storm Master. In fact, it still falls short in comparison. Here's why:

SM Live vs Undaunted Infiltrator (UI) PTS
-24.96% max DPS (-20.64% avg DPS)

If you're interested in verifying these test results for yourself, it's easy to do so by logging into the PTS. Here are some more details on how to replicate the experiment:


Test Assumptions:

1. The purpose of this test is to evaluate how the proposed changes affect Heavy Attack DPS, so we are only interested in sets and abilities that are specific to Heavy Attack builds. Therefore, we will exclude sets and abilities that are not relevant to this test, such as Pillar of Nirn and Volatile Familiar.
2. To minimize confounding factors and isolate the variables under test, we need to control for various factors such as differences in builds, classes, player skill level, and random variations caused by Critical Rating and Critical Damage. The controlled variables for this experiment are:
   • The combat ruleset (live vs PTS)
   • The 5-piece body set used (Storm Master and Undaunted Infiltrator).

Body

1x L Slimecraw
1x Sergeant (heavy)
5x Strom Master or Undaunted Infiltrator (both medium)

Bar & Accessories

Sergeant's Mail (lightning, neck, ring)
Oakensoul Ring

Same abilities, attributes, CPs, mundus, and target dummy for every test build.

To minimize the impact of player-executed rotation on the test results, we used Heavy Attack weaving as the rotation for this experiment. The rotation used was as follows:

• Wall
• Heavy Attack
• Heavy Attack
• Heavy Attack
• Heavy Attack

Results - see the beginning of this post (for details please see the image)

TL;DR
To summarize:
Based on the data collected, it appears that the proposed changes will result in a significant nerf to the maximum achievable Heavy Attack damage, with a reduction of approximately -24%. It's important to note that this test was conducted on a stationary target. In actual combat scenarios, Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

I don’t think people realize how deadly of a hit this is giving to ha builds. I think it may render some of our builds for us low dps solo players useless.

I guess it’s back to sucking wind and doing quests with as little combat as possible now and not being able to use all the content I pay for. Unless they review these things and decide not to move forward with this.

Personally I was happy with my main character the dps I was getting for now and the content I was able to do because of it it (even tho it still needs a ton of work I was Still is a much better place I’d never reach other wise without this ).

Sorry, but the test you quoted is not accurate. One can't test the DPS loss like that because it will not be an accurate assessment on the impact of the build. You need to test the entire build or the numbers will be greatly skewed.

When testing a full build on PTS vs Live, you only see a 6% damage loss. This is because, while the nerf to Storm Master's may impact your HA damage by 20% or so, wearing it in tandem with other sets will mitigate that loss. HA damage also only accounts for around 70% of the DPS of a HA build, so your overall dps is not impacted by 20% like the quoted test states.

You can check my post in the PTS forum for an accurate comparison between full parses.

Oh ok. Well for someone like me who is only hitting 25k dps half finished with their build it’s a massive hit to me and will further make it harder to finish my build that’s already been nerfed.

It’s almost like you are defending the changes because it’s what you wanted it. Trust me I’ll never be able to out parse you lol
It’s not my goal. I was shooting for 30-40 k max and I’m only at 25k I’m striving to focus on the solo arenas and many people like me aren’t hitting high dps or even affect your groups what so ever.

Make a parse on 21M trial dummy not 3/6M one. It gives more reliable starting point to know where are You at with Your DPS.

I unfortunately don’t have one and my guild as far as I know doesn’t have one either.

You can teleport to the house of someone who have one if it's an open house. Just type this command in chat /script JumpToHouse("@house owner ID") and You will be able to teleport to the house of someone who have 21M trial dummy. So now just ask around for someone on Your server who have free to visit house with a trial dummy. There is plenty of people like that.