One bar heavy attack builds attract hate ?

Naftal

I wonder how this affects newer players who want to learn and progress through group content.

If you can do 100k dps with one bar heavy attack build vs doing 125k with regular build.

Getting to that 100k dps isn't hard since you don't have to barswap, only have 5 skills to cast, you don't need to cast them once per second, weaving them with heavy attacks is very easy. Even with bad rotation people should get something like 80k easily with the correct gear.

Compare that to using a regular two bar build that requires light attack weaving. When most people start learning how to deal proper damage, even with the correct gear they'll easily end up somewhere near 30-40k.

Why would a player spend any time learning to play the harder build when they can immediately deal double damage with less effort?

But playing this easier build also caps their damage dealing skill very fast. No matter how long they play the build, they won't learn playing the other build any better.

hrothbern

Naftal wrote: »

I wonder how this affects newer players who want to learn and progress through group content.

If you can do 100k dps with one bar heavy attack build vs doing 125k with regular build.

Getting to that 100k dps isn't hard since you don't have to barswap, only have 5 skills to cast, you don't need to cast them once per second, weaving them with heavy attacks is very easy. Even with bad rotation people should get something like 80k easily with the correct gear.

Compare that to using a regular two bar build that requires light attack weaving. When most people start learning how to deal proper damage, even with the correct gear they'll easily end up somewhere near 30-40k.

Why would a player spend any time learning to play the harder build when they can immediately deal double damage with less effort?

But playing this easier build also caps their damage dealing skill very fast. No matter how long they play the build, they won't learn playing the other build any better.

Once you have improved your insight in the mechanics of bosses
which will go much easier if you are not at the same time honing your finger-keyboard motorics
You have indeed the personal choice whether you pick up some additional challenge (and its personal satisfaction) with 2bar or not.
A personal choice
My experience is that people with the talents and the drive to seek challenge, will always find their challenges

EDIT especially young people can be quite hungry for challenges
and that's great !
But as in RL in jobs, most people get into a phase where they slowly lose their appetite for many challenges in their life.
Demographics of the ESO playerbase is important to
not only from physical restraints

Hesperax79

Naftal wrote: »

But playing this easier build also caps their damage dealing skill very fast. No matter how long they play the build, they won't learn playing the other build any better.

The High-end player will invest to maximise their DPS. If you make 100K with 1Bar HA but 120K wit 2 bar they will invest for that +25%.
The majority of the playerbase simply do not care about that +25% because 100K is just enough for everything.

F.e myself. I do not care about high - end raiding. The days of Lich King and Cataclysm are gone, now I would enjoy the PvP and clear all content at least once. I can do that easily with 1bar build and thats enough for me.

Hyperdeathstalker

Ph1p wrote: »

Hyperdeathstalker wrote: »

If toxic endgamers get their way [...]

Hyperdeathstalker wrote: »

He prob annoyed coz he pull 10k higher with sweaty 2 bar 90 skill build lol [...]

Hyperdeathstalker wrote: »

Is it only elitist toxic players that have a problem with them ? Is it a threat to their sweaty complex 2 bar light attack rotations that only pull 20percent more dps?

Hyperdeathstalker wrote: »

[...] the hate comes from them, all one bar players do is retaliate as they get upset seeing threatening dps numbers creeping towards their parses.

Seems like you already made up your mind. But have you looked at your own thread? Almost 90% of responders are in support or at least fine with HA Oakensoul builds, except in the hardest content of the game. Only about 10% are clearly against them and even there it can be nuanced, e.g., by bad experiences they've had - just like you had them with negative comments.

As I see it, there is no general hate. You just encountered some individuals who overestimate themselves, use inflated requirements for their trial runs, or somehow derive a sense of superiority from parse numbers. By the way, they annoy 2-bar players just as much with their antics.

I usually ignore them and try not to extrapolate their opinions to the broader player base, just like I don't assume every Oakensoul user is a useless noob, just because one of them once wiped my group in Cloudrest. Why all this talk about "toxic, sweaty, elitist endgamers", as if there was a cabal of trial leaders conspiring to keep 1-bar players out of their runs? If anything, this forum thread should have shown you that most of them are open and inclusive.

I do believe your right, hopefully the majority of the playerbase are open to them and it is just a few arrogant people, the reason i always say toxic elite etc is 9/10 times its a high end player complaining that is clearly superior in everyway. Like i said why hate on something that improves the numbers of potential players seems negative to the game. Easier access more appeal.

Im not expecting scorepushing numbers on heavy attack build just the inclusion in all conent of the game. Including vet trials. They make out like im insisting all trifecta and leaderboard pushers must include one bar builds.

axi

Hyperdeathstalker wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Hyperdeathstalker wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

I haven't seen anybody getting hate but some people are definitely salty, myself included. I'm not a top dps but not the floor either. I've worked hard to farm sets, learning rotation and weaving and got my parse up to 105k. That's enough for me to do any vet content except some HMs and trifectas, which I'm not interested anyways. But now with Oakensoul HA builds, people who couldn't hit 50k, are now hitting as much as me. They put in 0 effort. My best HA parse is 96k so I'm using that now aswell. Why get all sweaty for extra 10k? This is not healthy for the game. Unless you're hitting 130k there's no point using anything but Oakensoul HA. Good aoe, decent st and great survivability on top. I can definetly see nerf hammer dropping next patch.

I dont get where the 0 effort comes from ? It is still demanding to hit 100k on a heavy attack build only difference is less weaving between skills and not 2 bars? I would class the builds a average to learn as it still requires good timing and rotation of skills if ur bad with it will not give you op dps it would drop to like 75k. Same with a light attack build poorly executed ud prob get 85k with optimal gear and 125k plus with good rotation.

I really cant see any problem with the current state of both dps options. And if it is nerfed next patch then they should also have a delay bar swapping and prevent animation cancelling to reduce too much of a dps difference. Thats fair

I dont want to sound like a jerk or for this comment to be recived as bashing but have You tried to reach 110k+ DPS on a ranged dynamic two bar setup? Because it sounds like You didn't if You think that rotations on one bar heavy attack setups are demanding in any way. If You would actually try to reach that 110k+ on a ranged setup You would understand why for some people think that one bar heavy attack rotations require zero effort.

And just to be clear my comment is not a hate towards one bar heavy attack setups, I think they have their place. It's just calling them demanding that seems a little silly for me. The whole idea behind them is to not be demanding.

When i say demanding i mean you still need near perfect timing on skills to hit 100k, people think we just button mash without thought. So i would class demanding a full concentration and no mistakes. Is a double bar setup more difficult yes? Zero effort is holding down one button.

Demanding by definition, when it comes to describing some activity or task, describes said activity or task as requiring much skill or effort. We can say a lot about heavy attack rotations but they do not require much skill or effort. That was basically whole devs idea behind them, to not require much skill and effort which regular rotations require to be efficient at. There is immense gap between skill and effort requirements needed to perform these two rotations perfectly. Yes heavy attack rotation will require some practice but it wont be "much skill and effort" requirement thus it does not meet definition of demanding task.

I will assume that You are not pulling 110k+ on ranged and 120k+ on meele setup so this may be the reason why it's hard for You to understand why some people consider heavy attack rotations as effortless since You don't understand how much it requires to actually hit top parses. And no You do not need "near perfect timing" to reach 100k on a one bar heavy attack setup, You can get that numbers with a static rotation with 3-4 active abilities where some of them won't be perfectly timed. With perfect timing You can actually go as high as areas of 105k, to get 100k You can easily make few mistakes since heavy attacks are responsible for majority of Your dmg so reaplying ability one heavy attack later here and there have way lower impact on overall parse than it would on 130k double bar dynamic rotation parses. And when it comes to just using a heavy attack You can actually go above 80k with that alone so Your previous statement about 75k when people mess up their rotation is kinda incorrect. This is also more than lots of people trying two bar setups can achieve since learning curve for one bar heavy attack setup do not require as much from user as dynamic two bar rotation does.

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.

Thank you for your understanding.

Hyperdeathstalker

axi wrote: »

Hyperdeathstalker wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Hyperdeathstalker wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

I haven't seen anybody getting hate but some people are definitely salty, myself included. I'm not a top dps but not the floor either. I've worked hard to farm sets, learning rotation and weaving and got my parse up to 105k. That's enough for me to do any vet content except some HMs and trifectas, which I'm not interested anyways. But now with Oakensoul HA builds, people who couldn't hit 50k, are now hitting as much as me. They put in 0 effort. My best HA parse is 96k so I'm using that now aswell. Why get all sweaty for extra 10k? This is not healthy for the game. Unless you're hitting 130k there's no point using anything but Oakensoul HA. Good aoe, decent st and great survivability on top. I can definetly see nerf hammer dropping next patch.

I dont get where the 0 effort comes from ? It is still demanding to hit 100k on a heavy attack build only difference is less weaving between skills and not 2 bars? I would class the builds a average to learn as it still requires good timing and rotation of skills if ur bad with it will not give you op dps it would drop to like 75k. Same with a light attack build poorly executed ud prob get 85k with optimal gear and 125k plus with good rotation.

I really cant see any problem with the current state of both dps options. And if it is nerfed next patch then they should also have a delay bar swapping and prevent animation cancelling to reduce too much of a dps difference. Thats fair

I dont want to sound like a jerk or for this comment to be recived as bashing but have You tried to reach 110k+ DPS on a ranged dynamic two bar setup? Because it sounds like You didn't if You think that rotations on one bar heavy attack setups are demanding in any way. If You would actually try to reach that 110k+ on a ranged setup You would understand why for some people think that one bar heavy attack rotations require zero effort.

And just to be clear my comment is not a hate towards one bar heavy attack setups, I think they have their place. It's just calling them demanding that seems a little silly for me. The whole idea behind them is to not be demanding.

When i say demanding i mean you still need near perfect timing on skills to hit 100k, people think we just button mash without thought. So i would class demanding a full concentration and no mistakes. Is a double bar setup more difficult yes? Zero effort is holding down one button.

Demanding by definition, when it comes to describing some activity or task, describes said activity or task as requiring much skill or effort. We can say a lot about heavy attack rotations but they do not require much skill or effort. That was basically whole devs idea behind them, to not require much skill and effort which regular rotations require to be efficient at. There is immense gap between skill and effort requirements needed to perform these two rotations perfectly. Yes heavy attack rotation will require some practice but it wont be "much skill and effort" requirement thus it does not meet definition of demanding task.

I will assume that You are not pulling 110k+ on ranged and 120k+ on meele setup so this may be the reason why it's hard for You to understand why some people consider heavy attack rotations as effortless since You don't understand how much it requires to actually hit top parses. And no You do not need "near perfect timing" to reach 100k on a one bar heavy attack setup, You can get that numbers with a static rotation with 3-4 active abilities where some of them won't be perfectly timed. With perfect timing You can actually go as high as areas of 105k, to get 100k You can easily make few mistakes since heavy attacks are responsible for majority of Your dmg so reaplying ability one heavy attack later here and there have way lower impact on overall parse than it would on 130k double bar dynamic rotation parses. And when it comes to just using a heavy attack You can actually go above 80k with that alone so Your previous statement about 75k when people mess up their rotation is kinda incorrect. This is also more than lots of people trying two bar setups can achieve since learning curve for one bar heavy attack setup do not require as much from user as dynamic two bar rotation does.

You are incorrect saying getting 100k on heavy attack isnt demanding this is only with perfect dynamic skill rotation and no mistakes, making no mistakes is not demanding ? I dont discredit 2 bar parses dont discredit mine.

And 100k is not a static rotation, ive often make adjustments during a parse. 75k with messed up rotation is not incorrect as clunky skill management would result in less heavy attacks overall and can result in less than over 80k pure heavy attack.

Again you one of the few carring on the arguement as you cant accept it take effort regardless of what build you use to hit over 100k.

peacenote

I would say the situation is complex, and toxicity and hate comes when people don't understand that and oversimplify the situation and thus their opinions.

I am so happy that there is a viable heavy attack build now; I was sad when HA builds kept getting nerfed because I am one of those people who has an injury and can't always light attack for hours. This is why I don't main as a DPS.

That said, just like with anything else, people running HA builds run the gamut, just like anything else. Some know the concepts of combat, some don't. Some think about the content they are attending and whether the group will be successful, some will be stubborn and offended if ever their build isn't desired in an organized trial, even when there may be a good reason... which clearly there sometimes is, as genuine scenarios have been peppered into this conversation alongside the binary 'this is bad or good, period' comments.

The ironic part, imo, is how if this had happened before the U33 and U35 mass exoduses, it would have been better for end game whereas now it's not as good as some of you think it is. I remember when there were tons of pugs in Crag running for whatever you might want to do, and I remember when it was easy to get fills for your runs. Not so today So before, there were plenty of trials to include some folks who maybe were learning, or aren't bringing as much to group composition. Now, there aren't enough of those people left -- the ones that did master their LA rotations and can play a bunch of classes and whatnot and make up for the mid tier players. (A tier I put myself in, btw, so no insult intended.) There should not be hate for people who run the HA rotations but those who do shouldn't blindly say "accept me as I am or you're toxic" when they try to run content where you need DPS to run specific sets or do certain mechanics or be a certain class to increase your chance of success. The understanding should go both ways, but per usual, it doesn't and often in these conversations don't one way where one half of the party sees the various perspectives.

As a healer, I experience my own version of this. Most of my friends can easily fill a DPS slot in a trial, of which there are usually many, but I just haven't had the time to maintain and practice with a trial-competitive DPS spec. And sometimes it hurts my hand too much. So if I am not ridiculously quick on the draw for a fill or a signup, I can get left out. It's frustrating but at the end of the day, it's still a limitation that's on my end -- my preferences and my time. It didn't used to be as much of a problem but now there are just less groups raiding. The chances of me and my three friends all getting slots in a raid together are much lower because of my inflexibility. If we start our own raid, we can't fill all the slots because there's not enough people interested. So, I'm trying to work on finding a DPS class/build that will add value which I can maybe not master, but be good enough with. With the exception of folks who for one reason or another aren't physically able to do anything but an HA build, well, I'm so glad it's an option at all. But for everyone else running them.... it's just like my healer story. Great if you're enjoying them, but if you can't swap to anything else there will be times when you'll be left out. That in and of itself is not hate unless it comes with denigrating comments.

CGPsaint

peacenote wrote: »

I am so happy that there is a viable heavy attack build now; I was sad when HA builds kept getting nerfed because I am one of those people who has an injury and can't always light attack for hours.

I don't have any injury or handicap, however my old hands just can't bang out a light attack rotation for hours on end. I've pretty much given up on competitive shooters as well because the twitch reflexes and dexterity just aren't what they used to be.

axi

Hyperdeathstalker wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Hyperdeathstalker wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Hyperdeathstalker wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

I haven't seen anybody getting hate but some people are definitely salty, myself included. I'm not a top dps but not the floor either. I've worked hard to farm sets, learning rotation and weaving and got my parse up to 105k. That's enough for me to do any vet content except some HMs and trifectas, which I'm not interested anyways. But now with Oakensoul HA builds, people who couldn't hit 50k, are now hitting as much as me. They put in 0 effort. My best HA parse is 96k so I'm using that now aswell. Why get all sweaty for extra 10k? This is not healthy for the game. Unless you're hitting 130k there's no point using anything but Oakensoul HA. Good aoe, decent st and great survivability on top. I can definetly see nerf hammer dropping next patch.

I dont get where the 0 effort comes from ? It is still demanding to hit 100k on a heavy attack build only difference is less weaving between skills and not 2 bars? I would class the builds a average to learn as it still requires good timing and rotation of skills if ur bad with it will not give you op dps it would drop to like 75k. Same with a light attack build poorly executed ud prob get 85k with optimal gear and 125k plus with good rotation.

I really cant see any problem with the current state of both dps options. And if it is nerfed next patch then they should also have a delay bar swapping and prevent animation cancelling to reduce too much of a dps difference. Thats fair

I dont want to sound like a jerk or for this comment to be recived as bashing but have You tried to reach 110k+ DPS on a ranged dynamic two bar setup? Because it sounds like You didn't if You think that rotations on one bar heavy attack setups are demanding in any way. If You would actually try to reach that 110k+ on a ranged setup You would understand why for some people think that one bar heavy attack rotations require zero effort.

And just to be clear my comment is not a hate towards one bar heavy attack setups, I think they have their place. It's just calling them demanding that seems a little silly for me. The whole idea behind them is to not be demanding.

When i say demanding i mean you still need near perfect timing on skills to hit 100k, people think we just button mash without thought. So i would class demanding a full concentration and no mistakes. Is a double bar setup more difficult yes? Zero effort is holding down one button.

Demanding by definition, when it comes to describing some activity or task, describes said activity or task as requiring much skill or effort. We can say a lot about heavy attack rotations but they do not require much skill or effort. That was basically whole devs idea behind them, to not require much skill and effort which regular rotations require to be efficient at. There is immense gap between skill and effort requirements needed to perform these two rotations perfectly. Yes heavy attack rotation will require some practice but it wont be "much skill and effort" requirement thus it does not meet definition of demanding task.

I will assume that You are not pulling 110k+ on ranged and 120k+ on meele setup so this may be the reason why it's hard for You to understand why some people consider heavy attack rotations as effortless since You don't understand how much it requires to actually hit top parses. And no You do not need "near perfect timing" to reach 100k on a one bar heavy attack setup, You can get that numbers with a static rotation with 3-4 active abilities where some of them won't be perfectly timed. With perfect timing You can actually go as high as areas of 105k, to get 100k You can easily make few mistakes since heavy attacks are responsible for majority of Your dmg so reaplying ability one heavy attack later here and there have way lower impact on overall parse than it would on 130k double bar dynamic rotation parses. And when it comes to just using a heavy attack You can actually go above 80k with that alone so Your previous statement about 75k when people mess up their rotation is kinda incorrect. This is also more than lots of people trying two bar setups can achieve since learning curve for one bar heavy attack setup do not require as much from user as dynamic two bar rotation does.

You are incorrect saying getting 100k on heavy attack isnt demanding this is only with perfect dynamic skill rotation and no mistakes, making no mistakes is not demanding ? I dont discredit 2 bar parses dont discredit mine.

And 100k is not a static rotation, ive often make adjustments during a parse. 75k with messed up rotation is not incorrect as clunky skill management would result in less heavy attacks overall and can result in less than over 80k pure heavy attack.

Again you one of the few carring on the arguement as you cant accept it take effort regardless of what build you use to hit over 100k.

Sorry but it is You who is incorrect. Getting 100k on a one bar heavy attack rotation is not that hard when compared to top parses on two bar dynamic rotations and can be achieved even on a static rotation. It cannot be called demanding since as I've already said definition of demainding says about task requiring much skill or effort. 100k on a one bar heavy attack do not require that. You can make mistakes on one bar heavy attack rotations and still get around 100k since the portion of DPS achieved from actively used abilities is usually around 15% so there is a room for mistakes.

And even if You will make said mistakes drop in DPS will be way less significant than it would be on a regular setup and You will still end up somwhere around 95k. Quite frankly many parses I've seen that achieved 100k on one bar heavy attack setup made few mistakes. And yes making no mistakes on a one bar heavy attack setup is not demanding. It requires some practice and getting use to, but the amount of skill and effort You need for that is far from calling it demanding. More often than not it boils down to just getting lucky crits during the parse.

If one bar heavy attack rotation would be demanding than what phrase we would have to use for two bar dynamic rotation? A god level rotation? Because the gap between time, skill and effort needed to perfectly execute them both is gigantic.

I see that You are really stubborn with Your way of thinking than maybe this will help You to change Your mindset. Here is a parse I did with one bar heavy attack static rotation. It took me literally 25 minutes to reach that numbers. I just needed to wait for lucky off balance and execute crits and this is actually main secret behind many of 100k+ parses on one bar heavy attack setups. It's not some "perfect dynamic skill rotation and no mistakes". You can make few mistakes, You can go with static rotation and eventually You will get that 100k parse anyway.



Here You can see that it was fully static rotation. Just take a look at blockade+curse and trap+familiar time values. It's also worth to notice how forgiving these rotations are. On a regular setup You want to reaply abilities as soon as they ended and not before that. Here curse was applied on average over 2 seconds after timer run out and blockade, trap and familar were applied 2-3 seconds before they've run out. Something like that would be unacceptable on a regular two bar dynamic setup if someone would like to reach high end of DPS values.



I do not claim one bar heavy attack rotations do not require some level of practice but they simply cannot be called demanding. You can even find developer's comment regarding empower change saying "We have turned this buff type into a more niche playstyle focus buff that is meant to help empower more accessibility driven builds, as Heavy Attacks requiring less precise activation and frequency of inputs compared to their Light Attack counterparts." Does "requiring less precise activation and frequency of inputs" and "more accesibility driven" sound like phrases used to describe demanding task?

blue_peaceful_Manticore

How many HA build in there? 0

And you wanna talking about HA and blablablabla.... lol


HA build are indeed a very big problem to the game... OR MAYBE cancelling animation is the biggest one!

me_ming

I don't have a problem with Heavy Attack builds, as long as they know what they are doing. [snip] FYI, heavy attack builds also follow a "meta". You mentioned it yourself, there are videos of heavy attack set ups. [snip]

[edited for flaming]

blue_peaceful_Manticore

me_ming wrote: »

I don't have a problem with Heavy Attack builds, as long as they know what they are doing. [snip] FYI, heavy attack builds also follow a "meta". You mentioned it yourself, there are videos of heavy attack set ups. [snip]

I never see any HA player kick out someone because he\she use 2bars. Otherwise happen to many times.
I never see any HA player say: "I don't play with him\her cuz he\her have 2bars". Otherwise happen to many times.
I never see any toxic HA player. Otherwise happen to many times.

And my previus topic as 0 of toxic. But is 100% True!

Toxic (in this topic) are all players, who kick\ignore\avoid HA players only because they(2bars) can make rotation. This is 100% toxic! And only because of this, 2bar players think they deserve to play the game and only they deserve play harder content.
if i'm wrong, tell me one guild\discord where i can join (HA user) to start making HM Trials. Tell me one and i join PC\EU!

Every 2 bar player with 100k parse, only need to join anywhere and he\she will be welcome.

Who are the toxics!?

[edited to remove quote]

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

[snip]

I used to parse constantly for years, trying to optimize each of my classes to the highest. I was able to crack 120k before the buffs to the dummy, and was well over 100k on all classes but one. And you know what? My hands have begun to hurt when I play video games from the strain of the actions per minute. I've begun to despise keeping up with the flip flopping metas. I got tired of every build having to be hybridized to even be optimal.

So I fell in love with the relaxed playstyle of both one and two bar heavy attack builds. Now, I don't want to play any other style. Am I salty over the "0 effort" it's taken me to hit 97k with the heavy attack builds? No, quite the opposite, lol. It enables both me, and many others who would otherwise not even be able to, enjoy hard content such as four man perfectas and hardmodes without the stress. To enjoy a near pure magicka build with staves again. Lightning staves, no less, which are my favourite.

So are we really going to demand nerfs to, or exclude, a playstyle simply because it's "easier", or because you may not play it personally?? That's absurd. The more people in the vet ready community, the better the health of the game. Not every build or player has to be godslayer ready to be valuable and viable! The gatekeeping is see here is both disappointing and ridiculous. Let people enjoy the game.

[edited for baiting]

Hyperdeathstalker

Maybe the dynamic was a bit exteme but it is demanding to hit over 100k , ive messed up and it does drop 10k off, and i would put these highend 2 bar dynamic rotations as god level as they are only obtainable buy a small perecentage of playerbase.

It sad to see how for people need to go to discredit other people opinions on a game. As the title of the discussion says they just attact hate. What you find demanding might be different to what others find demanding.

Its well overdue the dps in this game got a serious nerf with light attacks and put it more inline with more realistic setups that would appeal to a larger audience.

The game needs a serious shake up and taking down elitists a peg or two will do the trick. I think any dps pushing beyond 110k is overkill anyways.

Also casuals can be toxic you right there, but lets not pretend it not the godslayer pros coming at em first.

Anyway lets keep it going maybe zos will take note and address these issues, as there are too few metas for both types of dps builds (more sets) we need more variety and quite frankly the 2 bar light attack animation cancel is getting boring after 7 years. Overpowered and only achieved through exploitation ? the animations should complete before another comes into play.

CGPsaint

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

So are we really going to demand nerfs to, or exclude, a playstyle simply because it's "easier", or because you may not play it personally?? That's absurd. The more people in the vet ready community, the better the health of the game. Not every build or player has to be godslayer ready to be valuable and viable! The gatekeeping is see here is both disappointing and ridiculous. Let people enjoy the game.

Agree 100%. It's so disappointing that there are so many people who are so focused on trying to exclude as many people as possible simply because they aren't playing the way that they want. If you don't want to play with people who use HA builds, then don't, but leave it at that and stop trying to gatekeep content!

Diminish

Heelie wrote: »

Ýou can hot swap setups between fights. - Wizard's Wardrobe

When you are not stuck in combat It doesn't matter though, because being able to swap gear with an addon is not what my comment was about; it was about someone complaining about not enough AoE with 1 bar builds, which is completely UNTRUE. Go get 2 to 3 DPS in a group with a 1 bar lighting staff build, and test for yourself. More than enough AoE. I just helped 3 others last night get Beast personality from vMoS which has a lot of trash mobs. 1T 3DD, we had plenty of AoE to nuke everything within seconds of pulling them. If anything, lightning staff HA builds are better for AoE than most people's "regular" builds. I run A LOT of PUGs via dungeon finder, and intentionally focus on vet DLC dungeons because I enjoy the harder content, and helping others. I would much rather load in with people running HA builds than those running 2 bar builds, and not being very proficient at it. If you have tested AoE of a lightning HA build you would not be in this thread making comments about not having enough AoE damage in the group. The simple fact that those comments exist tell me that those who make them have not tested it, or are doing something extremely wrong in their build.

Diminish

CGPsaint wrote: »

Agree 100%. It's so disappointing that there are so many people who are so focused on trying to exclude as many people as possible simply because they aren't playing the way that they want. If you don't want to play with people who use HA builds, then don't, but leave it at that and stop trying to gatekeep content!

Couldn't agree more. HA builds are one of the best things that have happened to this game. It has made so much more content viable to a much larger portion of the player base. More people are running trials in some of the more casual friendly PvE guilds I am in, finding groups for "harder" content is easier, and more people seem to actually feel less anxious about getting into groups for content. This is a good thing, and it is going to be a shame for a lot of people if future changes were to take that away from them. People need to stop complaining, and just let people enjoy the game.

Agenericname

CGPsaint wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

So are we really going to demand nerfs to, or exclude, a playstyle simply because it's "easier", or because you may not play it personally?? That's absurd. The more people in the vet ready community, the better the health of the game. Not every build or player has to be godslayer ready to be valuable and viable! The gatekeeping is see here is both disappointing and ridiculous. Let people enjoy the game.

Agree 100%. It's so disappointing that there are so many people who are so focused on trying to exclude as many people as possible simply because they aren't playing the way that they want. If you don't want to play with people who use HA builds, then don't, but leave it at that and stop trying to gatekeep content!

Its not really gatekeeping. I dont necessarily agree with it, but there's nothing stopping anyone or creating a barrier to content. At the most they can prevent someone from participating in their group, but not the content. We all have the option to make our own and take on any content we'd like.

Prior to U25, IIRC, HA builds were a thing. I may be a patch or three off. Back then the critics of the patch said that ZOS was taking accessibility away from casual players, or those who didnt perform the rotations that depended heavily on LAs. Looks like ZOS finally listened, though a couple years late.

Ive never known a segment of the community to not be sore over some build, presumably not the one theyre using. Its best taken with a grain of salt.

Diminish

axi wrote: »

Demanding by definition, when it comes to describing some activity or task, describes said activity or task as requiring much skill or effort. We can say a lot about heavy attack rotations but they do not require much skill or effort. That was basically whole devs idea behind them, to not require much skill and effort which regular rotations require to be efficient at. There is immense gap between skill and effort requirements needed to perform these two rotations perfectly. Yes heavy attack rotation will require some practice but it wont be "much skill and effort" requirement thus it does not meet definition of demanding task.

I will assume that You are not pulling 110k+ on ranged and 120k+ on meele setup so this may be the reason why it's hard for You to understand why some people consider heavy attack rotations as effortless since You don't understand how much it requires to actually hit top parses. And no You do not need "near perfect timing" to reach 100k on a one bar heavy attack setup, You can get that numbers with a static rotation with 3-4 active abilities where some of them won't be perfectly timed. With perfect timing You can actually go as high as areas of 105k, to get 100k You can easily make few mistakes since heavy attacks are responsible for majority of Your dmg so reaplying ability one heavy attack later here and there have way lower impact on overall parse than it would on 130k double bar dynamic rotation parses. And when it comes to just using a heavy attack You can actually go above 80k with that alone so Your previous statement about 75k when people mess up their rotation is kinda incorrect. This is also more than lots of people trying two bar setups can achieve since learning curve for one bar heavy attack setup do not require as much from user as dynamic two bar rotation does.

This is just flat misinformation. I can go beat up a dummy the next time I am on, fully gold everything, all passives, CP, BiS traits, enchants, etc. etc. just the way most builds recommend, and then purposely mess up the rotation and skills a couple times, and guarantee I will not hit anywhere near 100k. I also bet that those running the "meta" HA build are probably averaging around 60 - 80k. Please keep in mind, this is while standing still, against something that does not fight back. Take this into combat, and that will easily drop even further. To say it isn't demanding to hit 100k on a HA build is just not accurate, and is out of reach for most of those use would use this type of build to begin with. Just as a 120 - 130k parse it out of reach for a large number of 2 bar build users. It's fine to be in the top 1% damage of the player base, and congratulations if you are, but after ~9 years, why cant people just accept the fact that there are less capable (not in a bad way) people who play this game, and not everyone wants to put their hands through a meat grinder trying to pull off some 20 skill, micro-managed dynamic rotation where your weaving requires weaving for hours while they play the game?

I recently ran some dungeons with a few players from a guild I am in. Both 600+ CP, and they wanted to do a DLC dungeon... on normal. I hardly ever run normal on anything so I got a guildie of mine, and we took them through vet. All I heard through that dungeon were comments about the dungeon, different aspects of it, the environment, etc. It sounded like they really enjoyed it... and it was the first time ever experiencing it. You know why that was? Because it was a DLC dungeon, and one of them just didn't think they could do it even on normal so they never tried. The other was too nervous to try vet. This person told me they really wanted to do more vet content... at over 600+ CP one has to wonder why one of them never even attempted the dungeon before... when they are clearly interested in doing them, and the other never stepped foot in veteran mode, even though they have a clear interest in veteran content. I'll leave your imagination to wander on that. HA builds are a HUGE improvement to the game for so many people, and they without a doubt have their place in the game. They are not as "ez mode" as some would like to think. The average person could mirror any build found online, and will not have anywhere near the results you see posted for them which is fine. Now people can concentrate on actually playing the game, and learning the content rather than staring at timers on their skill bars. ZoS needs to make more HA build targeted gear. Open 1 bar builds with simple rotations up to tanks, healers, and DPS. Give them a few options so they can still make some of their own choices. Those 100k+, 2 bar, 10 skill, dynamic, light attack weaving players will still be ok in the end. Making the game more accessible is not a negative thing even if it means there is an "easy rotation" for people to use to make it that way. The hate is unjustified, and good job on ZoS for adding this option to the game, rather it was intentional or not.

Diminish

frozzzen101 wrote: »

I wouldn't call it hate, but rather reservations. I think Oaken is good for game and good for players who want to use it. You do you. Oaken HA builds however just aren't good in actual content, and I don't think it's wortwhile to invest in HA Oaken user as long term group member because he sets his ceiling very low from the outset. So progressing trough more and more difficult content, he will just be left behind.

You can't perform basic combat action - blockcasting your skills, can't have extreme burst damage phases or execute, and you set your ceiling extremely low. So you don't have great prospects as long term teammate. Yes, there is 6 "selfish" dps spots in majority of the raids however they are often tasked with doing stuff like portals and such. You want to keep your support players parsing all the time to provide maximum uptimes that benefit the entire group. When you do portals and similar mechanics you often need your source of self healing or breach, sometimes something specific such as interrupt skill etc. It's much easier to sacrifice 1/10 skills rather than 1/5 that Oaken HA builds have access to. And "selfish" dds often time need to bring meta class/race to the group in order to get maximum damage output possible. They don't just play one class that they want for everything, and they need to bring what raidlead tells them, depending on content. They need to know how to play multiple classes where Oaken is just bad on some of them making this much harder sell.

Besides, let's look at damn thing. What it provides to organized group.

Empower - necro support
Major Brutality - potion/dk
Major Prophecy - potion/camo
Major Resolve - warden support
Major Savagery - potion/camo
Major Sorcery - potion/dk
Minor Aegis - not offensive buff so irrelevant
Minor Berserk - healer/kinra's
Minor Courage - yolnakriin tank
Minor Endurance - HA builds don't have sustain issues so irrelevant/warden support
Minor Force - nice, but trap is one of best dots that provides this buff, channeled last 60 sec
Minor Fortitude - not offensive buff so irrelevant
Minor Heroism - great, can theoretically be gained with heroism potions but that's for 0.01% of population
Minor Intellect - HA builds don't have sustain issues so irrelevant/warden support
Minor Mending - not offensive buff so irrelevant
Minor Protection - not offensive buff so irrelevant
Minor Slayer - guess it's great if you run weird sets, but every dd should run trial set aynway

So really, what you get is not having to recast trap which is one of best skills, worth recasting even in execute or channeled that lasts a full minute, minor slayer so you don't have to use trial sets for some reason and minor heroism.It's not worth even remotely to sacrifice entire bar just for that. Oaken is kinda passable in 4 man and nice for solo where you don't have access to pletora of support buffs, but for organized raids it's really bad, especially if group isn't built around it as full Oaken raid.

Tbh I haven't ever seen compeling argument on why would you pick teammate that uses HA Oaken build. 100k+ dps isn't argument at all. Even pug raiding discords set lowest rank to 90k dps with all the dummy inflation. You wouldn't take adult person using training wheels to represent your biking club on serious competition. And sure, there is time and place for training wheels, but it's not in organized raid groups that puts in effort. 110k Oaken build =/= 110k standard build. You have entire rest of the game for Oaken HA builds. Pugs, group finder, Craglorn, overland and solo content. Everything. But any group that wants to achieve a relatively high end goal is going to have serious reservations towards Oaken players, and with good reasons. I can single out so many content instances of where and why would Oaken HA user horrendously underperform compared to 2 bar LA build, but for people that honestly see limit of such builds, they already understand them, and for those who refuse to see it out of principle, there's no convincing them anyway.

99 out of 100 people you describe likely are not in a dedicated group raiding and score pushing multiple times a week. Obviously if you are a HA 1 bar build user, you are not going to be out there posting your "resume" trying to get onto one of those rosters, and many of those on said roster are there for a reason, and likely have been for a long time. The < 1% of the games' population that is raiding the way you describe, or people who want to get into that type of thing are not going to go build a 1 bar HA build and try to do so. The issue is the people who are raiding like that, completely sh**ting on those who play this way, complaining about it, and crying for nerfs because people are achieving what most would consider decent DPS with way less effort than they are. History shows us what eventually happens when the minority of people start complaining. I have no doubt ZoS will eventually "tweak" things due to that; I really hope they don't because I think it is a net positive for the game, but I feel they will because of the voice of few. That will be a huge kick to those who are finally able to have more of the game's content accessible to them, and then it gets taken away. It is going to demoralize many people, and I hope ZoS treads lightly with this going forward.

CGPsaint

Agenericname wrote: »

Its not really gatekeeping. I dont necessarily agree with it, but there's nothing stopping anyone or creating a barrier to content. At the most they can prevent someone from participating in their group, but not the content. We all have the option to make our own and take on any content we'd like.

The fact that people are calling for ZOS to nerf HA builds is 100% gatekeeping, [snip] It's just silly.

[edited for baiting]

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

CGPsaint wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Its not really gatekeeping. I dont necessarily agree with it, but there's nothing stopping anyone or creating a barrier to content. At the most they can prevent someone from participating in their group, but not the content. We all have the option to make our own and take on any content we'd like.

The fact that people are calling for ZOS to nerf HA builds is 100% gatekeeping, [snip] It's just silly.

I would go so far as to say calling for nerfs to something like heavy attack builds is just spiteful at this point, especially after the chaos of the last two patches with combat.

[edited to remove quote]

Agenericname

CGPsaint wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Its not really gatekeeping. I dont necessarily agree with it, but there's nothing stopping anyone or creating a barrier to content. At the most they can prevent someone from participating in their group, but not the content. We all have the option to make our own and take on any content we'd like.

The fact that people are calling for ZOS to nerf HA builds is 100% gatekeeping, [snip] It's just silly.

[snip]

I dont run into very many people who complain about the builds, but, just avoid them and continue playing your game. ZOS isnt listening to them. Like I said, they can't stop you from running the content, only running with them. And why would you want to? Life's too short for that negativity anyway.

And after Oakensoul is nerfed and rarely used, something else will takes its place. Hopefully it'll be Templar

[edited for conspiracy theory/misinformation & to remove quote]

TaSheen

? They already nerfed Oakensoul. Why would they nerf it again? I don't use it with HA builds - I haven't any use for HA at all. I use Oakensoul because it has made my limited ability to LA weave (due to various issues IRL - like age, bad refleexs due to age, painful hands and mega ping because my only viable connect is satellite) actually viable for me, so that I can manage to kill what I need to.

And even at that, killing what'shisface (end boss of Galen quest line) wasn't easy at all. In fact, I didn't expect it to be easy - but I did hope it wouldnt take me a huge number of deaths (and a LOT of painful issues with my hands) to get through it. Well.... that ship sailed before I ever got there....

I really wish all you mega-build people would just leave the rest of us alone.

kbarc

Do heavy attack builds attract hate? From my experiences in game, little to none. I run random pugs frequently and have seen some here and there running it without issue from the group. There's been multiple in game discussions regarding these builds, but not complaints.

I've been helping with an 8 HA Sorc team and it's wild to see this action. We have been able to complete every Craiglorn HM, and every vet trial other than Dreadsail (has not been attempted yet). We have just cleared VAS2 which was a pipe dream for some of these people. Now the team is spending time in VCR and have been able to knock out +2 with ice and lightning a couple times (yes, the oakensoul works here on vet. Idk why people are saying it doesn't).

Ultimately, I believe accessibility to harder content is important. U35 had a lot of backlash
from friends in game and of course one of my guilds nearly died from it, however, news spread of heavy attack builds and has become very active again. The people who were parsing 40-60k are now able to acheive 80k+. It's absolutely thrilling for these players, some who have actual disabilities (one with 1 arm and others with arthritis). I believe this has been very healthy to a large part of the community. If any changes, I'd like to see other gear sets be brought in to help give heavy attack builds more options.

CrashTest

kbarc wrote: »

Do heavy attack builds attract hate? From my experiences in game, little to none. I run random pugs frequently and have seen some here and there running it without issue from the group. There's been multiple in game discussions regarding these builds, but not complaints.

I've been helping with an 8 HA Sorc team and it's wild to see this action. We have been able to complete every Craiglorn HM, and every vet trial other than Dreadsail (has not been attempted yet). We have just cleared VAS2 which was a pipe dream for some of these people. Now the team is spending time in VCR and have been able to knock out +2 with ice and lightning a couple times (yes, the oakensoul works here on vet. Idk why people are saying it doesn't).

Ultimately, I believe accessibility to harder content is important. U35 had a lot of backlash
from friends in game and of course one of my guilds nearly died from it, however, news spread of heavy attack builds and has become very active again. The people who were parsing 40-60k are now able to acheive 80k+. It's absolutely thrilling for these players, some who have actual disabilities (one with 1 arm and others with arthritis). I believe this has been very healthy to a large part of the community. If any changes, I'd like to see other gear sets be brought in to help give heavy attack builds more options.

Pretty much. In the actual game, there's no actual rampant hate towards Oakensoul HA builds like there is on this forum, so it's a non issue really.

Nice job on the clears. I was wondering if Oakensoul could clear hms, so this is good to know.

How do you guys work around Voltaic Overload in vCR?

frozzzen101

Diminish wrote: »

99 out of 100 people you describe likely are not in a dedicated group raiding and score pushing multiple times a week. Obviously if you are a HA 1 bar build user, you are not going to be out there posting your "resume" trying to get onto one of those rosters, and many of those on said roster are there for a reason, and likely have been for a long time. The < 1% of the games' population that is raiding the way you describe, or people who want to get into that type of thing are not going to go build a 1 bar HA build and try to do so. The issue is the people who are raiding like that, completely sh**ting on those who play this way, complaining about it, and crying for nerfs because people are achieving what most would consider decent DPS with way less effort than they are. History shows us what eventually happens when the minority of people start complaining. I have no doubt ZoS will eventually "tweak" things due to that; I really hope they don't because I think it is a net positive for the game, but I feel they will because of the voice of few. That will be a huge kick to those who are finally able to have more of the game's content accessible to them, and then it gets taken away. It is going to demoralize many people, and I hope ZoS treads lightly with this going forward.

You completely missed the point of my post. This entire thread is reminiscent of Don Quijote chasing his windmills. There is total one post calling for HA playstyle nerf in this over 200 posts thread but it's littered with complaining that people want to nerf you. It's a projection. If there's even a segment of people that want to nerf Oaken, they aren't that people that are playing organized raiding. We're 100% fine with HA builds. People tell you it's fine to play Oaken HA, some say that they are perhaps a bit salty because effort/result ratio, but I don't really see calling for nerfs.
You want my opinion on Oaken and state of HA builds? Oaken is bad item. Add Major Slayer to it so people get buff that's not commonly available to everyone with 100% uptime and is not affecting PvP at all. Also change Empower to give LA builds something little (20% increase for LAs only vs 80% for HA let's say) so support necros can use Empower once again for benefit of both playstyles and to remove artificial rift in communities that ZoS created with Empower in the first place. As things are right now, I don't even have Empowering Grasp skilled on my necs because it doesn't affect people I'm usually playing with.

And then you have people like this:

"if i'm wrong, tell me one guild\discord where i can join (HA user) to start making HM Trials. Tell me one and i join PC\EU!"

HM trials. People that want everything without puting any effort/minimal effort. They want, they demand, they are entitled to.
And let's not beat around the bush, Oaken HA playstyle is minimal effort compared to learning standard rotation and playstlye. I know it because I started as heavy attack petsorc player in Morrowind chapter when sustain was destroyed. It's absolutely trivial playstyle. Thing is, once I switched from that playstlye into standard, my actual content dps almost doubled despite it showing only 10-15% damage increase on the dummy. HA can get you only so far, but it's people like that want to be included in vRG HM rosters where people optimize group, optimize support sets, optimize raid compositions, uptimes positions and everything. Suddenly it's toxic not to put them in such groups, it's toxic to bench/avoid them etc.

If there's a singular problem in this conversation, it's that attitude like this gets asociated with HA players in general despite it probably being just couple inidividuals tarnishing HA community. I think endgame players have spoken enough about importance of and HA builds accessibility in this thread and many others, but I never see HA players calling out entitled, selfish behaviour of their peers. So you get automatically flagged with same mentality, despite me knowing plenty of nice people enjoying their HA builds. It's the same like you atribute toxicity to endgame players but we actually fixed our toxicty problems over the years. All that's left is your projections and windmills.

ApoAlaia

From the perspective of someone who doesn't play at the bleeding edge of what is achievable in the game: hi HA builds, welcome welcome, please come in, there is coffee making facilities in the kitchen.

Specially in PUGs... yes please, thank you. HA builds might have been the one and only thing to come out of U35 that was serviceable.

Wouldn't be surprised if they hammered them down into oblivion in U37. Probably an oversight that they did leave them as viable, an oversight that they will be looking to address... with extreme prejudice.

When it comes to highly organised groups just discuss with your team mates I guess? That is the point of highly organised groups.

As I said I don't really play at the bleeding edge, but I do run vet trials and the occasional HM; old content mind you, vDSR HM/vRG HM... U35 changed many things for those like myself that were middling (read, mediocre) and hammered us down a peg - a sort of 'know your place pleb' so those are out of reach for the time being.

But I digress, when I run organised content the raid lead sets the expectations in terms of who is wearing what in order to achieve the goal, which is fine by us because we are all there to achieve the goal, therefore 'HA or non HA' is a non-issue.

When is PUGs however, honestly, whatever gets the job done I'll take it.

blue_peaceful_Manticore

.

frozzzen101 wrote: »

"...

And then you have people like this:

"if i'm wrong, tell me one guild\discord where i can join (HA user) to start making HM Trials. Tell me one and i join PC\EU!"

HM trials. People that want everything without puting any effort/minimal effort. They want, they demand, they are entitled to.
And let's not beat around the bush, Oaken HA playstyle is minimal effort compared to learning standard rotation and playstlye. I know it because I started as heavy attack petsorc player in Morrowind chapter when sustain was destroyed. It's absolutely trivial playstyle. Thing is, once I switched from that playstlye into standard, my actual content dps almost doubled despite it showing only 10-15% damage increase on the dummy. HA can get you only so far, but it's people like that want to be included in vRG HM rosters where people optimize group, optimize support sets, optimize raid compositions, uptimes positions and everything. Suddenly it's toxic not to put them in such groups, it's toxic to bench/avoid them etc. ..."

Maybe im understand you in the wrong way. But if not:

"if i'm wrong, tell me one guild\discord where i can join (HA user) to start making HM Trials. Tell me one and i join PC\EU!"
When i say that. It's because it's true. My personal opinion in this exact point is: People don't avoid me cuz i die to times, or cuz i dont have damage or cuz i dont know mechs. They avoid only because i play with HA. Only that! Nothing more.

But going foward...

-"HM trials. People that want everything without puting any effort/minimal effort."
You really can't understand some players, many players, can't make rotation!? Why you can't understand that? I simple cant. I can't.
Fast exemple:
-Yesterday i try vKA with Templar 2 bars. I Can't make more then 30k damage in boss. And i die... 12 or 13 times. It was annoying
-With HA i can make 90k min in any boss, and its very very very hard die once.
-I enjoy HA. I can help group with HA, if im in your group.... belive me... you will 100% prefer i play with one bar. lol! Cuz i can't play with 2... i can't.

And only because i can't make the perfect rotation you wanna, and many like you.... you really belive i don't deserve to play Trial HM?!
Many can make perfect rotation, but for X reasons they change to HA builds. Now you really belive they don't deserve to play HM Trials?! Why!? Only because you and many other players like you spend 7 years training rotation?! What about new players!? With HA (easy play), they can go try HM Trials in less then 1 year. But you hate them because they have to trainne 6 years?! Only then they deserve it?! You make no sence.

-If you say HA builds dont have 120k like 2bars... and because of that, you prefer to play with anyone who have 120k parse. i 100% agree with you. (I love making trials when i'm the lowest DPS. This mean, we will make a very fast and clean trial... so nice....)

-If you say HA builds cant use 12 Skills and for some reason, we need every player with 12 skills to complete vLoM HM... well.... make no sence.. but i agree with you. HA cant use 12 skills.

-If you wanna use any argument.... i can agree with you. But...only because you spend years in trainning and now.... anyone can have same damage as you (90k for exemple), and enjoy the game like you enjoy... This argument make no sence. None!

- To avoid other players\builds\maps\dungeons etc.... You have all the right. And , you will have your own reasons. But they have to make sence?! No?