One bar heavy attack builds attract hate ?

blue_peaceful_Manticore · January 2023

Hyperdeathstalker wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

I haven't seen anybody getting hate [snip]. I'm not a top dps but not the floor either. I've worked hard to farm sets, learning rotation and weaving and got my parse up to 105k. That's enough for me to do any vet content except some HMs and trifectas, which I'm not interested anyways. But now with Oakensoul HA builds, people who couldn't hit 50k, are now hitting as much as me. They put in 0 effort. My best HA parse is 96k so I'm using that now aswell. Why get all sweaty for extra 10k? This is not healthy for the game. Unless you're hitting 130k there's no point using anything but Oakensoul HA. Good aoe, decent st and great survivability on top. I can definetly see nerf hammer dropping next patch.

I dont get where the 0 effort comes from ? It is still demanding to hit 100k on a heavy attack build only difference is less weaving between skills and not 2 bars? I would class the builds a average to learn as it still requires good timing and rotation of skills if ur bad with it will not give you op dps it would drop to like 75k. Same with a light attack build poorly executed ud prob get 85k with optimal gear and 125k plus with good rotation.

I really cant see any problem with the current state of both dps options. And if it is nerfed next patch then they should also have a delay bar swapping and prevent animation cancelling to reduce too much of a dps difference. Thats fair

Why should ZoS nerf onebar damage? They should fix animation cancelling bug. That will solve the problem too!

[edited to remove quote]

Hyperdeathstalker · January 2023

EnKor wrote: »

Hyperdeathstalker wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

I haven't seen anybody getting hate [snip]. I'm not a top dps but not the floor either. I've worked hard to farm sets, learning rotation and weaving and got my parse up to 105k. That's enough for me to do any vet content except some HMs and trifectas, which I'm not interested anyways. But now with Oakensoul HA builds, people who couldn't hit 50k, are now hitting as much as me. They put in 0 effort. My best HA parse is 96k so I'm using that now aswell. Why get all sweaty for extra 10k? This is not healthy for the game. Unless you're hitting 130k there's no point using anything but Oakensoul HA. Good aoe, decent st and great survivability on top. I can definetly see nerf hammer dropping next patch.

I dont get where the 0 effort comes from ? It is still demanding to hit 100k on a heavy attack build only difference is less weaving between skills and not 2 bars? I would class the builds a average to learn as it still requires good timing and rotation of skills if ur bad with it will not give you op dps it would drop to like 75k. Same with a light attack build poorly executed ud prob get 85k with optimal gear and 125k plus with good rotation.

I really cant see any problem with the current state of both dps options. And if it is nerfed next patch then they should also have a delay bar swapping and prevent animation cancelling to reduce too much of a dps difference. Thats fair

Why should ZoS nerf onebar damage? They should fix animation cancelling bug. That will solve the problem too!

No they shouldnt nerf anything , but if they do nerf one bar build nerf 2 bar builds aswell

[edited to remove quote]

Eldartar · January 2023

EnKor wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

EnKor wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

[snip]

[snip]

[snip]

[snip]

This, I love this and agree with you @EnKor 100%

[edited to remove quote]

Ph1p · January 2023

To address the original question of whether 1-bar builds attract hate:

As the OP said, there is always an idiot somewhere making dumb comments. I typically do vet and HM dungeons/trials, incl. with an Oakensorc myself, and have luckily not come across any hate so far. But as far as I can tell and from what I have read in this thread, there are several bad reasons to argue against 1-bar builds:

Setting much higher requirements than needed for your content - emphasis on the "much higher". Why make a fuss when it's only vFG2 or vCR+0 and when the people joining know what to do?
Being upset that other people reach similar DPS with less effort. Why should I care? I'd understand if 1-bar builds were actually stronger across the board, but 2-bar DPS is still higher. That's like saying "I manage 125k DPS with a difficult dynamic rotation. Why should an easier static rotation be able to reach 115k?"
Ridiculing 1-bar players as less skilled or knowledgeable. Do I even need to explain why this is a dumb thing to do?

At the same time, from the perspective of a trial leader, I can also see reasons why choosing a double-bar DPS over an Oakensoul player can be warranted or understandable:

Hard content and score-pushing. There is a clear need for optimization in these situations and others have highlighted the disadvantages of 1-bar and especially HA builds in terms of DPS, mobility, etc.
Perception of effort and respect. Oakensoul can negative impact progression group dynamics. Healers and tanks often put a lot of effort and resources into all the setups needed and same for DDs who work on their sets and DPS. Bringing a 1-bar build with less DPS can look somewhat disrespectful if you actually have better alternatives available or if you seem to refuse to "progress" to more effective builds over time.
Simplicity and time. In introductory vet trials, for example, I can understand that a trial leader doesn't want to explain how to do mechanics multiple times for "regular" and 1-bar HA builds. Personally that's not how I would run it, but I can understand.

Long story short: You should play however you want and in many situations, using Oakensoul doesn't matter that much. If you encounter pointless criticism, do consider that the same people will probably act just as brainlessly towards everyone else and your build is just an excuse for them. So this isn't an issue between 1-bar vs. 2-bar communities, but of misguided individuals. I think most people across the experience and playstyle spectrum are perfectly fine with either, although there are some - mostly advanced endgame - situations where concerns are justified.

nebula3832 · January 2023

My vote is for zos to remove all weapons and skills from dungeons/ trails and only allow for players to punch there way through dungeons/ trails until people start to get along and stop complaining and enjoy the game🙂

frozzzen101 · January 2023

I wouldn't call it hate, but rather reservations. I think Oaken is good for game and good for players who want to use it. You do you. Oaken HA builds however just aren't good in actual content, and I don't think it's wortwhile to invest in HA Oaken user as long term group member because he sets his ceiling very low from the outset. So progressing trough more and more difficult content, he will just be left behind.

You can't perform basic combat action - blockcasting your skills, can't have extreme burst damage phases or execute, and you set your ceiling extremely low. So you don't have great prospects as long term teammate. Yes, there is 6 "selfish" dps spots in majority of the raids however they are often tasked with doing stuff like portals and such. You want to keep your support players parsing all the time to provide maximum uptimes that benefit the entire group. When you do portals and similar mechanics you often need your source of self healing or breach, sometimes something specific such as interrupt skill etc. It's much easier to sacrifice 1/10 skills rather than 1/5 that Oaken HA builds have access to. And "selfish" dds often time need to bring meta class/race to the group in order to get maximum damage output possible. They don't just play one class that they want for everything, and they need to bring what raidlead tells them, depending on content. They need to know how to play multiple classes where Oaken is just bad on some of them making this much harder sell.

Besides, let's look at damn thing. What it provides to organized group.

Empower - necro support
Major Brutality - potion/dk
Major Prophecy - potion/camo
Major Resolve - warden support
Major Savagery - potion/camo
Major Sorcery - potion/dk
Minor Aegis - not offensive buff so irrelevant
Minor Berserk - healer/kinra's
Minor Courage - yolnakriin tank
Minor Endurance - HA builds don't have sustain issues so irrelevant/warden support
Minor Force - nice, but trap is one of best dots that provides this buff, channeled last 60 sec
Minor Fortitude - not offensive buff so irrelevant
Minor Heroism - great, can theoretically be gained with heroism potions but that's for 0.01% of population
Minor Intellect - HA builds don't have sustain issues so irrelevant/warden support
Minor Mending - not offensive buff so irrelevant
Minor Protection - not offensive buff so irrelevant
Minor Slayer - guess it's great if you run weird sets, but every dd should run trial set aynway

So really, what you get is not having to recast trap which is one of best skills, worth recasting even in execute or channeled that lasts a full minute, minor slayer so you don't have to use trial sets for some reason and minor heroism.It's not worth even remotely to sacrifice entire bar just for that. Oaken is kinda passable in 4 man and nice for solo where you don't have access to pletora of support buffs, but for organized raids it's really bad, especially if group isn't built around it as full Oaken raid.

Tbh I haven't ever seen compeling argument on why would you pick teammate that uses HA Oaken build. 100k+ dps isn't argument at all. Even pug raiding discords set lowest rank to 90k dps with all the dummy inflation. You wouldn't take adult person using training wheels to represent your biking club on serious competition. And sure, there is time and place for training wheels, but it's not in organized raid groups that puts in effort. 110k Oaken build =/= 110k standard build. You have entire rest of the game for Oaken HA builds. Pugs, group finder, Craglorn, overland and solo content. Everything. But any group that wants to achieve a relatively high end goal is going to have serious reservations towards Oaken players, and with good reasons. I can single out so many content instances of where and why would Oaken HA user horrendously underperform compared to 2 bar LA build, but for people that honestly see limit of such builds, they already understand them, and for those who refuse to see it out of principle, there's no convincing them anyway.

Jeejee · January 2023

Hyperdeathstalker wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

I haven't seen anybody getting hate but some people are definitely salty, myself included. I'm not a top dps but not the floor either. I've worked hard to farm sets, learning rotation and weaving and got my parse up to 105k. That's enough for me to do any vet content except some HMs and trifectas, which I'm not interested anyways. But now with Oakensoul HA builds, people who couldn't hit 50k, are now hitting as much as me. They put in 0 effort. My best HA parse is 96k so I'm using that now aswell. Why get all sweaty for extra 10k? This is not healthy for the game. Unless you're hitting 130k there's no point using anything but Oakensoul HA. Good aoe, decent st and great survivability on top. I can definetly see nerf hammer dropping next patch.

I dont get where the 0 effort comes from ? It is still demanding to hit 100k on a heavy attack build only difference is less weaving between skills and not 2 bars? I would class the builds a average to learn as it still requires good timing and rotation of skills if ur bad with it will not give you op dps it would drop to like 75k. Same with a light attack build poorly executed ud prob get 85k with optimal gear and 125k plus with good rotation.

I really cant see any problem with the current state of both dps options. And if it is nerfed next patch then they should also have a delay bar swapping and prevent animation cancelling to reduce too much of a dps difference. Thats fair

Reducing the dps difference means if everyone can't do good dps, no one should be allowed to. So you are basically saying it's unfair that some are able to do better dps than others in this game. There needs to be a fair dps difference that rewards skill, effort and practice, but currently HA builds are way too rewarding compared to any other build and that's why majority of players are switching to HA builds. That's proof enough those are the builds that need the nerf

jecks33 · January 2023

Ph1p wrote: »

That's like saying "I manage 125k DPS with a difficult dynamic rotation. Why should an easier static rotation be able to reach 115k?"

in the past people complained for that too. "sorcs are carried by pets, they have to use just 3 skills.. Nerf sorcs!!"
I also remember the only patch where stamplar was good "eeehhh with my magblade I have to manage a very complex rotation, stamplar just jab jab jab jab"

JJMaxx1980 · January 2023

Jeejee wrote: »

Reducing the dps difference means if everyone can't do good dps, no one should be allowed to. So you are basically saying it's unfair that some are able to do better dps than others in this game. There needs to be a fair dps difference that rewards skill, effort and practice, but currently HA builds are way too rewarding compared to any other build and that's why majority of players are switching to HA builds. That's proof enough those are the builds that need the nerf

There is a difference and it’s around 30% less damage with a HA build. That’s the balance. Yes it’s an easier rotation but you’re still significantly behind even a sub-par 2 bar player.

Why would they nerf a play style that is 30% less powerful than any other build, especially when they made the most recent changes to shrink the gap between those same players. They did exactly what they wanted to do. Now you have a high-skill, high reward play style and a lower-skill, lower reward play style but now both groups are able to enjoy all the games content.

Nerfing this play style would revert the game state back to excluding a large portion of the player base from game content, something they literally just changed.

CGPsaint · January 2023

All of the arguments continue to boil down to people being upset that other people "aren't putting in as much effort" and quite frankly that's a weak argument. This game is hemorrhaging end-game players so I'm all for whatever brings more players to the game and makes it easier for them to engage in all types of content. Stop worrying about what other players are using and if you're trying to get sweating and push trial scores then by all means you can build your trial team to your specifications, but for everything else, give it a rest.

axi · January 2023

Hyperdeathstalker wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

I haven't seen anybody getting hate but some people are definitely salty, myself included. I'm not a top dps but not the floor either. I've worked hard to farm sets, learning rotation and weaving and got my parse up to 105k. That's enough for me to do any vet content except some HMs and trifectas, which I'm not interested anyways. But now with Oakensoul HA builds, people who couldn't hit 50k, are now hitting as much as me. They put in 0 effort. My best HA parse is 96k so I'm using that now aswell. Why get all sweaty for extra 10k? This is not healthy for the game. Unless you're hitting 130k there's no point using anything but Oakensoul HA. Good aoe, decent st and great survivability on top. I can definetly see nerf hammer dropping next patch.

I dont get where the 0 effort comes from ? It is still demanding to hit 100k on a heavy attack build only difference is less weaving between skills and not 2 bars? I would class the builds a average to learn as it still requires good timing and rotation of skills if ur bad with it will not give you op dps it would drop to like 75k. Same with a light attack build poorly executed ud prob get 85k with optimal gear and 125k plus with good rotation.

I really cant see any problem with the current state of both dps options. And if it is nerfed next patch then they should also have a delay bar swapping and prevent animation cancelling to reduce too much of a dps difference. Thats fair

I dont want to sound like a jerk or for this comment to be recived as bashing but have You tried to reach 110k+ DPS on a ranged dynamic two bar setup? Because it sounds like You didn't if You think that rotations on one bar heavy attack setups are demanding in any way. If You would actually try to reach that 110k+ on a ranged setup You would understand why for some people think that one bar heavy attack rotations require zero effort.

And just to be clear my comment is not a hate towards one bar heavy attack setups, I think they have their place. It's just calling them demanding that seems a little silly for me. The whole idea behind them is to not be demanding.

JJMaxx1980 · January 2023

axi wrote: »

I don't want to sound like a jerk or for this comment to be received as bashing but have You tried to reach 110k+ DPS on a ranged dynamic two bar setup? Because it sounds like You didn't if You think that rotations on one bar heavy attack setups are demanding in any way. If You would actually try to reach that 110k+ on a ranged setup You would understand why for some people think that one bar heavy attack rotations require zero effort.

And just to be clear my comment is not a hate towards one bar heavy attack setups, I think they have their place. It's just calling them demanding that seems a little silly for me. The whole idea behind them is to not be demanding.

If you want to go by the numbers I can provide that. I have the CMX info for the following:

A 127k 2-Bar MagSorc Parse:
Time: 2:45
Light Attacks: 161
Abilities: 162
Total Actions: 323

A 105k 1-Bar OakenSorc Parse:
Time: 3:19
Heavy Attacks: 80
Abilities: 55
Total Actions: 135

However, the Heavy Attack is never re-pressed, so technically all 80 attacks are a single action, bringing the total Actions to 56.

I will say that if you calculate the actions per second of the 2 bar parse, you’ll see that it’s roughly 2 APS. That means that in order to achieve that kind of result, you need to be able to press the exact correct button every 0.5 seconds for an entire fight, all while avoiding damage and following mechanics. This is the reason ZOS specifically stated that it is unfair to expect a large majority of players to do this. It’s great for those who can do it but for the rest of us, Heavy Attack builds are the perfect balance where we do have to weave correctly, but only at a slower pace. We have less overall damage, but we aren’t locked out of any content, regular or vet.

CrashTest · January 2023

Jeejee wrote: »

And its fair that some people actually practiced and spent lots of effort to reach that dps but now there's a 1 button build for those who didn't bother, that gives you the dps completely free of effort?

It's not free of effort. There are some people who can't even break 70k with a HA build. The average HA user is about 80k to 90s. I know this bc I read parses all the time.

There are no 1 bar builds in the top tier dps range (125k+). Good 2 bar LA dps are still ahead of HA dps.

The only range you see HA and LA dps at about the same level is below 90k dps, and even then the LA dps still outbursts the HA dps, so HA is fine where it is.

[snip]

Any 2 bar LA dps that's around 100k, has no room to criticize anyone for their dps, whether HA or LA, bc a 2 bar LA build has the potential to be doing way more dps with their setup.

Any raid lead for non hm vdlc trials that says an Oakensorc can't do portal mechs doesn't know what they're talking about bc I put them in portal mechs all the time. If your runs are failing with one or two Oakensorcs, you have much bigger issues with your team.

[snip] So, what platform is this such a big issue?

[edited for baiting]

UnassumingNoob · January 2023

I don’t play a one bar build but I’m lovin seeing them in dungeons when I’m tanking. Random vets are so much better now as, on Xbox at least, they are everywhere. It’s kinda idiot proof damage. Love where it’s at.

WrathOfInnos · January 2023

Hyperdeathstalker wrote: »

I really cant see any problem with the current state of both dps options. And if it is nerfed next patch then they should also have a delay bar swapping and prevent animation cancelling to reduce too much of a dps difference. Thats fair

That's a dangerous statement. You would change actions that are already too difficult and clunky for many players, and make them more difficult and clunky to spite those that have learned them? How does raising the difficulty of 2 bar rotations help anyone? The ceiling will still master the method, and players in the middle will feel the effects.

It's good that a variety of builds are viable currently, but nobody pressing 4 buttons in 10s is entitled to similar results as someone pressing 12-14 in the same 10s. Fair is a funny choice of word.

Lumenn · January 2023

This thread is circling. Basically,

Angry pitchfork claim: "you only push one button!"

Response: in fact I'm pushing 5, plus ult between a longer HA instead of 10 between a short LA.

Angry pitchfork again: less work for the same damage!

Response again: in fact my top dmg is about 25%- 30% less than your top end with less burst and block.

Pitchfork again: you only push one button!

Response: smh

boi_anachronism_ · January 2023

Skvysh wrote: »

JJMaxx1980 wrote: »

What skill? [...] Crystal Frags?

Yes.

If a magsorc can't cast frags, there's no reason to bring a sorc specifically in the first place. It procs minor prophecy (assuming your group is going that route over weapon power/crit) and it gives reliable ranged ST damage - the other reason why magsorcs are brought into some trials.

So actually they have a legitimate point here. While we are talking about maximized groups here it does stand. Another good example of this is NB. Debilitate is a subpar dot however it does provide minor mag steal to the group which if no one else is running that buff is very useful. If I'm running a one bar build I would not be able to run it. As I mentioned though, this is really only pertinent to a maximized trial group.

JJMaxx1980 · January 2023

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Skvysh wrote: »

JJMaxx1980 wrote: »

What skill? [...] Crystal Frags?

Yes.

If a magsorc can't cast frags, there's no reason to bring a sorc specifically in the first place. It procs minor prophecy (assuming your group is going that route over weapon power/crit) and it gives reliable ranged ST damage - the other reason why magsorcs are brought into some trials.

So actually they have a legitimate point here. While we are talking about maximized groups here it does stand. Another good example of this is NB. Debilitate is a subpar dot however it does provide minor mag steal to the group which if no one else is running that buff is very useful. If I'm running a one bar build I would not be able to run it. As I mentioned though, this is really only pertinent to a maximized trial group.

This is correct. However, you’re only gonna get this sweaty for HM Trials, Trifectas and score pushing and no one-bar build is arguing that they would be a good fit for that content. However, there’s some in this thread arguing that one-bar builds are unacceptable for any group content and that’s just ignorant.

axi · January 2023

JJMaxx1980 wrote: »

axi wrote: »

I don't want to sound like a jerk or for this comment to be received as bashing but have You tried to reach 110k+ DPS on a ranged dynamic two bar setup? Because it sounds like You didn't if You think that rotations on one bar heavy attack setups are demanding in any way. If You would actually try to reach that 110k+ on a ranged setup You would understand why for some people think that one bar heavy attack rotations require zero effort.

And just to be clear my comment is not a hate towards one bar heavy attack setups, I think they have their place. It's just calling them demanding that seems a little silly for me. The whole idea behind them is to not be demanding.

If you want to go by the numbers I can provide that. I have the CMX info for the following:

A 127k 2-Bar MagSorc Parse:
Time: 2:45
Light Attacks: 161
Abilities: 162
Total Actions: 323

A 105k 1-Bar OakenSorc Parse:
Time: 3:19
Heavy Attacks: 80
Abilities: 55
Total Actions: 135

However, the Heavy Attack is never re-pressed, so technically all 80 attacks are a single action, bringing the total Actions to 56.

I will say that if you calculate the actions per second of the 2 bar parse, you’ll see that it’s roughly 2 APS. That means that in order to achieve that kind of result, you need to be able to press the exact correct button every 0.5 seconds for an entire fight, all while avoiding damage and following mechanics. This is the reason ZOS specifically stated that it is unfair to expect a large majority of players to do this. It’s great for those who can do it but for the rest of us, Heavy Attack builds are the perfect balance where we do have to weave correctly, but only at a slower pace. We have less overall damage, but we aren’t locked out of any content, regular or vet.

If we want to be more exact than we need to remember that bar swaps are also considered as actions so overall amount of actions in two bar setup will go up by like 20-40 (depends of DoT types on the back bar).

There is also more differences than just higher APM ratio with more complicated rotation that requires to monitor more abilities at once. 127k parse was propably performed on a meele setup when heavy atack rotations have a freedom of being range. 127k parse have a heavy resource draining rotation that user wont be able to maintain without good support when heavy attack setup have basically resource restoring rotation. 127k parse is heavily focused on a single target and have mediocre AoE dmg when heavy attack setup is decently balanced between both. One bar heavy attack setup have also higher base defense due to minor protection, minor aegis and major resolve present on Oakensoul ring.

zaria · January 2023

On pc most serious has combat metric, if i'm in a vet dlc dungeon and you do 70 k playing flute

EnKor wrote: »

Hyperdeathstalker wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

I haven't seen anybody getting hate [snip]. I'm not a top dps but not the floor either. I've worked hard to farm sets, learning rotation and weaving and got my parse up to 105k. That's enough for me to do any vet content except some HMs and trifectas, which I'm not interested anyways. But now with Oakensoul HA builds, people who couldn't hit 50k, are now hitting as much as me. They put in 0 effort. My best HA parse is 96k so I'm using that now aswell. Why get all sweaty for extra 10k? This is not healthy for the game. Unless you're hitting 130k there's no point using anything but Oakensoul HA. Good aoe, decent st and great survivability on top. I can definetly see nerf hammer dropping next patch.

I dont get where the 0 effort comes from ? It is still demanding to hit 100k on a heavy attack build only difference is less weaving between skills and not 2 bars? I would class the builds a average to learn as it still requires good timing and rotation of skills if ur bad with it will not give you op dps it would drop to like 75k. Same with a light attack build poorly executed ud prob get 85k with optimal gear and 125k plus with good rotation.

I really cant see any problem with the current state of both dps options. And if it is nerfed next patch then they should also have a delay bar swapping and prevent animation cancelling to reduce too much of a dps difference. Thats fair

Why should ZoS nerf onebar damage? They should fix animation cancelling bug. That will solve the problem too!

Again, so many bis sets demand LA to proc, they has to re-balance the game. I say the US should convert to the metric system first 😺

[edited to remove quote]

MidniteOwl1913 · January 2023

Kusto wrote: »

I haven't seen anybody getting hate [snip]. I'm not a top dps but not the floor either. I've worked hard to farm sets, learning rotation and weaving and got my parse up to 105k. That's enough for me to do any vet content except some HMs and trifectas, which I'm not interested anyways. But now with Oakensoul HA builds, people who couldn't hit 50k, are now hitting as much as me. They put in 0 effort. My best HA parse is 96k so I'm using that now aswell. Why get all sweaty for extra 10k? This is not healthy for the game. Unless you're hitting 130k there's no point using anything but Oakensoul HA. Good aoe, decent st and great survivability on top. I can definetly see nerf hammer dropping next patch.

Well you can relax even with HA oakensoul I'm only hitting in the mid-sixties. It is a lot more than I was able to do right after the nerf hammer of U35, but sure ask for another nerf.

[edited to remove quote]

MidniteOwl1913 · January 2023

Lumenn wrote: »

This thread is circling. Basically,

Angry pitchfork claim: "you only push one button!"

Response: in fact I'm pushing 5, plus ult between a longer HA instead of 10 between a short LA.

Angry pitchfork again: less work for the same damage!

Response again: in fact my top dmg is about 25%- 30% less than your top end with less burst and block.

Pitchfork again: you only push one button!

Response: smh

Yup! Very well put.

boi_anachronism_ · January 2023

JJMaxx1980 wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Skvysh wrote: »

JJMaxx1980 wrote: »

What skill? [...] Crystal Frags?

Yes.

If a magsorc can't cast frags, there's no reason to bring a sorc specifically in the first place. It procs minor prophecy (assuming your group is going that route over weapon power/crit) and it gives reliable ranged ST damage - the other reason why magsorcs are brought into some trials.

So actually they have a legitimate point here. While we are talking about maximized groups here it does stand. Another good example of this is NB. Debilitate is a subpar dot however it does provide minor mag steal to the group which if no one else is running that buff is very useful. If I'm running a one bar build I would not be able to run it. As I mentioned though, this is really only pertinent to a maximized trial group.

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Skvysh wrote: »

JJMaxx1980 wrote: »

What skill? [...] Crystal Frags?

Yes.

If a magsorc can't cast frags, there's no reason to bring a sorc specifically in the first place. It procs minor prophecy (assuming your group is going that route over weapon power/crit) and it gives reliable ranged ST damage - the other reason why magsorcs are brought into some trials.

So actually they have a legitimate point here. While we are talking about maximized groups here it does stand. Another good example of this is NB. Debilitate is a subpar dot however it does provide minor mag steal to the group which if no one else is running that buff is very useful. If I'm running a one bar build I would not be able to run it. As I mentioned though, this is really only pertinent to a maximized trial group.

This is correct. However, you’re only gonna get this sweaty for HM Trials, Trifectas and score pushing and no one-bar build is arguing that they would be a good fit for that content. However, there’s some in this thread arguing that one-bar builds are unacceptable for any group content and that’s just ignorant.

I'm pretty sure that was the jist of what I said? I commented earlier In the thread that I really have no issue with one bar for 2 reasons:

1) it gets a lot of folks to expand the content they can play, seeing as 35 caused a significant contraction of the raiding community I think that's a good thing.

2) for folks who want to get into harder content it can be a gateway that enables and encourages them to spend some time practicing a 2 bar if they decide that they want to try to get into an optimized group at some point.

Ultimately it is a trial leaders right to choose who they want and they can simply state that you have to be competent with x style to play for hm. I dont think most folks would be offended by that. Lots of guild will certainly take 1 bar users. 2 bar will always have the edge so I don't see why people are all heated and I'm saying that as someone who struggled for a long ass time to break 80k.

Sincerely,

an hm trial progger

Hyperdeathstalker · January 2023

JJMaxx1980 wrote: »

Jeejee wrote: »

Reducing the dps difference means if everyone can't do good dps, no one should be allowed to. So you are basically saying it's unfair that some are able to do better dps than others in this game. There needs to be a fair dps difference that rewards skill, effort and practice, but currently HA builds are way too rewarding compared to any other build and that's why majority of players are switching to HA builds. That's proof enough those are the builds that need the nerf

There is a difference and it’s around 30% less damage with a HA build. That’s the balance. Yes it’s an easier rotation but you’re still significantly behind even a sub-par 2 bar player.

Why would they nerf a play style that is 30% less powerful than any other build, especially when they made the most recent changes to shrink the gap between those same players. They did exactly what they wanted to do. Now you have a high-skill, high reward play style and a lower-skill, lower reward play style but now both groups are able to enjoy all the games content.

Nerfing this play style would revert the game state back to excluding a large portion of the player base from game content, something they literally just changed.

He prob annoyed coz he pull 10k higher with sweaty 2 bar 90 skill build lol , people switching to heavy attack builds coz they are more user friendly and appeal to wider audience , anyway its nice to break up the same old rele kilt nirn rubbish

Hyperdeathstalker · January 2023

axi wrote: »

Hyperdeathstalker wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

I haven't seen anybody getting hate but some people are definitely salty, myself included. I'm not a top dps but not the floor either. I've worked hard to farm sets, learning rotation and weaving and got my parse up to 105k. That's enough for me to do any vet content except some HMs and trifectas, which I'm not interested anyways. But now with Oakensoul HA builds, people who couldn't hit 50k, are now hitting as much as me. They put in 0 effort. My best HA parse is 96k so I'm using that now aswell. Why get all sweaty for extra 10k? This is not healthy for the game. Unless you're hitting 130k there's no point using anything but Oakensoul HA. Good aoe, decent st and great survivability on top. I can definetly see nerf hammer dropping next patch.

I dont get where the 0 effort comes from ? It is still demanding to hit 100k on a heavy attack build only difference is less weaving between skills and not 2 bars? I would class the builds a average to learn as it still requires good timing and rotation of skills if ur bad with it will not give you op dps it would drop to like 75k. Same with a light attack build poorly executed ud prob get 85k with optimal gear and 125k plus with good rotation.

I really cant see any problem with the current state of both dps options. And if it is nerfed next patch then they should also have a delay bar swapping and prevent animation cancelling to reduce too much of a dps difference. Thats fair

I dont want to sound like a jerk or for this comment to be recived as bashing but have You tried to reach 110k+ DPS on a ranged dynamic two bar setup? Because it sounds like You didn't if You think that rotations on one bar heavy attack setups are demanding in any way. If You would actually try to reach that 110k+ on a ranged setup You would understand why for some people think that one bar heavy attack rotations require zero effort.

And just to be clear my comment is not a hate towards one bar heavy attack setups, I think they have their place. It's just calling them demanding that seems a little silly for me. The whole idea behind them is to not be demanding.

When i say demanding i mean you still need near perfect timing on skills to hit 100k, people think we just button mash without thought. So i would class demanding a full concentration and no mistakes. Is a double bar setup more difficult yes? Zero effort is holding down one button.

Hyperdeathstalker · January 2023

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Hyperdeathstalker wrote: »

I really cant see any problem with the current state of both dps options. And if it is nerfed next patch then they should also have a delay bar swapping and prevent animation cancelling to reduce too much of a dps difference. Thats fair

That's a dangerous statement. You would change actions that are already too difficult and clunky for many players, and make them more difficult and clunky to spite those that have learned them? How does raising the difficulty of 2 bar rotations help anyone? The ceiling will still master the method, and players in the middle will feel the effects.

It's good that a variety of builds are viable currently, but nobody pressing 4 buttons in 10s is entitled to similar results as someone pressing 12-14 in the same 10s. Fair is a funny choice of word.

Yes very dangerous RIP ESO and i only said lower 2 bar dps if they lower 1 bar setups. If toxic endgamers get their way and heavy on bar builds are killed off so is a large portion of the dps average playerbase and potional players. Would you rather 10 dps queuing who have heavy attsck builds that do good damage or 2 dps that are top tier with and having less to go around. If u have 2 opposing options the fair thing to do is nerf both not 1

Hyperdeathstalker · January 2023

CGPsaint wrote: »

All of the arguments continue to boil down to people being upset that other people "aren't putting in as much effort" and quite frankly that's a weak argument. This game is hemorrhaging end-game players so I'm all for whatever brings more players to the game and makes it easier for them to engage in all types of content. Stop worrying about what other players are using and if you're trying to get sweating and push trial scores then by all means you can build your trial team to your specifications, but for everything else, give it a rest.

This is well said, you dont see heavy attack players complaing that 2 bar builds are to powerful and heavy attack builds should be stronger, the hate comes from them, all one bar players do is retaliate as they get upset seeing threatening dps numbers creeping towards their parses.

Like you said the playerbase it so low why try and put the nail in the coffin and kill off the remaining few to protect elitist sweaty builds

WrathOfInnos · January 2023

Hyperdeathstalker wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Hyperdeathstalker wrote: »

I really cant see any problem with the current state of both dps options. And if it is nerfed next patch then they should also have a delay bar swapping and prevent animation cancelling to reduce too much of a dps difference. Thats fair

That's a dangerous statement. You would change actions that are already too difficult and clunky for many players, and make them more difficult and clunky to spite those that have learned them? How does raising the difficulty of 2 bar rotations help anyone? The ceiling will still master the method, and players in the middle will feel the effects.

It's good that a variety of builds are viable currently, but nobody pressing 4 buttons in 10s is entitled to similar results as someone pressing 12-14 in the same 10s. Fair is a funny choice of word.

Yes very dangerous RIP ESO and i only said lower 2 bar dps if they lower 1 bar setups. If toxic endgamers get their way and heavy on bar builds are killed off so is a large portion of the dps average playerbase and potional players. Would you rather 10 dps queuing who have heavy attsck builds that do good damage or 2 dps that are top tier with and having less to go around. If u have 2 opposing options the fair thing to do is nerf both not 1

There's a difference between lowering DPS, and making combat more clunky with bar swap delays and animation locking. Raising and lowering light and heavy attacks by the same amount may be fair, but that was not the proposal.

hrothbern · January 2023

For people here disagreeing with the current strength of HA Oakensoul builds for DPS
And for the case that such a HA Oakensoul build is not carried by the rest of the group

What difficulty level of content should be excluded for these builds ?

EDIT
And do bear in mind if your desire to nerf excludes a lot

Would it make sense for ZOS to develop a lot of that excluded difficult content ?

Ph1p · January 2023

Hyperdeathstalker wrote: »

If toxic endgamers get their way [...]

Hyperdeathstalker wrote: »

He prob annoyed coz he pull 10k higher with sweaty 2 bar 90 skill build lol [...]

Hyperdeathstalker wrote: »

Is it only elitist toxic players that have a problem with them ? Is it a threat to their sweaty complex 2 bar light attack rotations that only pull 20percent more dps?

Hyperdeathstalker wrote: »

[...] the hate comes from them, all one bar players do is retaliate as they get upset seeing threatening dps numbers creeping towards their parses.

Seems like you already made up your mind. But have you looked at your own thread? Almost 90% of responders are in support or at least fine with HA Oakensoul builds, except in the hardest content of the game. Only about 10% are clearly against them and even there it can be nuanced, e.g., by bad experiences they've had - just like you had them with negative comments.

As I see it, there is no general hate. You just encountered some individuals who overestimate themselves, use inflated requirements for their trial runs, or somehow derive a sense of superiority from parse numbers. By the way, they annoy 2-bar players just as much with their antics.

I usually ignore them and try not to extrapolate their opinions to the broader player base, just like I don't assume every Oakensoul user is a useless noob, just because one of them once wiped my group in Cloudrest. Why all this talk about "toxic, sweaty, elitist endgamers", as if there was a cabal of trial leaders conspiring to keep 1-bar players out of their runs? If anything, this forum thread should have shown you that most of them are open and inclusive.