One bar heavy attack builds attract hate ?

CP5

EnKor wrote: »

me_ming wrote: »

I don't have a problem with Heavy Attack builds, as long as they know what they are doing. [snip] FYI, heavy attack builds also follow a "meta". You mentioned it yourself, there are videos of heavy attack set ups. [snip]

I never see any HA player kick out someone because he\she use 2bars. Otherwise happen to many times.
I never see any HA player say: "I don't play with him\her cuz he\her have 2bars". Otherwise happen to many times.
I never see any toxic HA player. Otherwise happen to many times.

And my previus topic as 0 of toxic. But is 100% True!

Toxic (in this topic) are all players, who kick\ignore\avoid HA players only because they(2bars) can make rotation. This is 100% toxic! And only because of this, 2bar players think they deserve to play the game and only they deserve play harder content.
if i'm wrong, tell me one guild\discord where i can join (HA user) to start making HM Trials. Tell me one and i join PC\EU!

Every 2 bar player with 100k parse, only need to join anywhere and he\she will be welcome.

Who are the toxics!?

I've only skimmed this topic, only now coming in to see what the commotion was about. The simple fact of the matter is in group content, especially trials, whoever is leading the group has to be respectful of everyone else's time. Each person is there by their own will, each likely putting in a different degree of effort to help the group through their own time spent getting gear and practicing, and if they're going to take unknown players into their group they have to think about how that will impact the rest of the group's enjoyment.

As others have mentioned, Oakensoul can promote bad habits, significantly reduces your options in content, all for a suite of buffs that have significant overlap with what experienced supports will likely bring. This puts players who heavily depend on Oakensoul, and heavy attacks, into a position where they don't have as much room for growth, don't have as much flexibility to adapt to content, and it falls on other players to pick up the slack.

If you're in a fight and a damage shield is critical to survive, how easy is it for a one bar build to make room to survive, or will they have to be revived every time the shield would have been needed? Will their dps be too heavily impacted by trading out a heavy attack critical set for one that offers more survivability? Does their limited bar space remove their ability to be self-sufficient and do things like running portals in cloudrest and sunspire? So if these players have limited skill slots that they can't easily change without heavily impacting what they can do, limited gear options because of what they need, yet expect to join in these groups, what outside of just parsing would they be expected to do?

When my guild was in Kyne's Aegis I was a support necro, and on top of the support sets I wore I also had the colossus on one bar and the rez ultimate on the other. That degree of flexibility gave me options in the fight to prevent group wipes by rezing a tank the second they went down, or by debuffing vital targets, so the group's total damage would go up to kill them faster. When we were in rockgrove I antagonized them by talking non-stop about shimmering shield on my warden, a skill I could fit on my back bar without impacting my ability setup on my front bar, there when I needed it and gone when I didn't. Flexibility matters, having options matter, and while I can respect players who feel that is either too much to manage for whatever reason, not having oakensoul and keeping the options open to be is better.

Because in the end, a player who feels 11 other people are obligated to let them join the group, who then offloads the damage they aren't doing and the task they aren't helping with onto others, is only serving to make things harder for everyone else. I was never the top dps in my groups, but I made up for that by supporting the group and making the run as smooth for others by doing whatever task any individual fight demanded of me. The ability to do that is limited by oakensoul, and if no attempt is made by those players to show that they're still able and willing to do their part to help the group succeed, then it is in the raid leader's best interest, for themselves and 10 other people, to not have that player join the group. They have no obligation to host a dreadful run for their group just because one player doesn't understand the impact their decisions have on the group.

[edited to remove quote]

kbarc

CrashTest wrote: »

kbarc wrote: »

Do heavy attack builds attract hate? From my experiences in game, little to none. I run random pugs frequently and have seen some here and there running it without issue from the group. There's been multiple in game discussions regarding these builds, but not complaints.

I've been helping with an 8 HA Sorc team and it's wild to see this action. We have been able to complete every Craiglorn HM, and every vet trial other than Dreadsail (has not been attempted yet). We have just cleared VAS2 which was a pipe dream for some of these people. Now the team is spending time in VCR and have been able to knock out +2 with ice and lightning a couple times (yes, the oakensoul works here on vet. Idk why people are saying it doesn't).

Ultimately, I believe accessibility to harder content is important. U35 had a lot of backlash
from friends in game and of course one of my guilds nearly died from it, however, news spread of heavy attack builds and has become very active again. The people who were parsing 40-60k are now able to acheive 80k+. It's absolutely thrilling for these players, some who have actual disabilities (one with 1 arm and others with arthritis). I believe this has been very healthy to a large part of the community. If any changes, I'd like to see other gear sets be brought in to help give heavy attack builds more options.

Pretty much. In the actual game, there's no actual rampant hate towards Oakensoul HA builds like there is on this forum, so it's a non issue really.

Nice job on the clears. I was wondering if Oakensoul could clear hms, so this is good to know.

How do you guys work around Voltaic Overload in vCR?

To work around the bar swap mechanic you need to make sure you are not equipping a back bar weapon. You can still get the mechanic, but it does little to no damage to you or others when you get it. Anyone can do it, even if you don't run oakensoul you can unequip the backbar and it won't have any effect. We saw some videos on YouTube about it, but was tested in normal. We spent a while testing on vet before seeing that it works perfectly fine in there as well.

N3CR01

kbarc wrote: »

CrashTest wrote: »

kbarc wrote: »

Do heavy attack builds attract hate? From my experiences in game, little to none. I run random pugs frequently and have seen some here and there running it without issue from the group. There's been multiple in game discussions regarding these builds, but not complaints.

I've been helping with an 8 HA Sorc team and it's wild to see this action. We have been able to complete every Craiglorn HM, and every vet trial other than Dreadsail (has not been attempted yet). We have just cleared VAS2 which was a pipe dream for some of these people. Now the team is spending time in VCR and have been able to knock out +2 with ice and lightning a couple times (yes, the oakensoul works here on vet. Idk why people are saying it doesn't).

Ultimately, I believe accessibility to harder content is important. U35 had a lot of backlash
from friends in game and of course one of my guilds nearly died from it, however, news spread of heavy attack builds and has become very active again. The people who were parsing 40-60k are now able to acheive 80k+. It's absolutely thrilling for these players, some who have actual disabilities (one with 1 arm and others with arthritis). I believe this has been very healthy to a large part of the community. If any changes, I'd like to see other gear sets be brought in to help give heavy attack builds more options.

Pretty much. In the actual game, there's no actual rampant hate towards Oakensoul HA builds like there is on this forum, so it's a non issue really.

Nice job on the clears. I was wondering if Oakensoul could clear hms, so this is good to know.

How do you guys work around Voltaic Overload in vCR?

To work around the bar swap mechanic you need to make sure you are not equipping a back bar weapon. You can still get the mechanic, but it does little to no damage to you or others when you get it. Anyone can do it, even if you don't run oakensoul you can unequip the backbar and it won't have any effect. We saw some videos on YouTube about it, but was tested in normal. We spent a while testing on vet before seeing that it works perfectly fine in there as well.

Still can't believe so many don't know this.
I explained this last time I was doing vCR and no one believed me and had me take the ring off which killed my damage.

Remathilis

N3CR01 wrote: »

kbarc wrote: »

CrashTest wrote: »

kbarc wrote: »

Do heavy attack builds attract hate? From my experiences in game, little to none. I run random pugs frequently and have seen some here and there running it without issue from the group. There's been multiple in game discussions regarding these builds, but not complaints.

I've been helping with an 8 HA Sorc team and it's wild to see this action. We have been able to complete every Craiglorn HM, and every vet trial other than Dreadsail (has not been attempted yet). We have just cleared VAS2 which was a pipe dream for some of these people. Now the team is spending time in VCR and have been able to knock out +2 with ice and lightning a couple times (yes, the oakensoul works here on vet. Idk why people are saying it doesn't).

Ultimately, I believe accessibility to harder content is important. U35 had a lot of backlash
from friends in game and of course one of my guilds nearly died from it, however, news spread of heavy attack builds and has become very active again. The people who were parsing 40-60k are now able to acheive 80k+. It's absolutely thrilling for these players, some who have actual disabilities (one with 1 arm and others with arthritis). I believe this has been very healthy to a large part of the community. If any changes, I'd like to see other gear sets be brought in to help give heavy attack builds more options.

Pretty much. In the actual game, there's no actual rampant hate towards Oakensoul HA builds like there is on this forum, so it's a non issue really.

Nice job on the clears. I was wondering if Oakensoul could clear hms, so this is good to know.

How do you guys work around Voltaic Overload in vCR?

To work around the bar swap mechanic you need to make sure you are not equipping a back bar weapon. You can still get the mechanic, but it does little to no damage to you or others when you get it. Anyone can do it, even if you don't run oakensoul you can unequip the backbar and it won't have any effect. We saw some videos on YouTube about it, but was tested in normal. We spent a while testing on vet before seeing that it works perfectly fine in there as well.

Still can't believe so many don't know this.
I explained this last time I was doing vCR and no one believed me and had me take the ring off which killed my damage.

It might be apocryphal, but I did hear of a guy who got kicked from a Cloudrest pug for bringing a werewolf because the RL thought he'd get the mechanic and couldn't barswap while in wolf mode.

axi

Diminish wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Demanding by definition, when it comes to describing some activity or task, describes said activity or task as requiring much skill or effort. We can say a lot about heavy attack rotations but they do not require much skill or effort. That was basically whole devs idea behind them, to not require much skill and effort which regular rotations require to be efficient at. There is immense gap between skill and effort requirements needed to perform these two rotations perfectly. Yes heavy attack rotation will require some practice but it wont be "much skill and effort" requirement thus it does not meet definition of demanding task.

I will assume that You are not pulling 110k+ on ranged and 120k+ on meele setup so this may be the reason why it's hard for You to understand why some people consider heavy attack rotations as effortless since You don't understand how much it requires to actually hit top parses. And no You do not need "near perfect timing" to reach 100k on a one bar heavy attack setup, You can get that numbers with a static rotation with 3-4 active abilities where some of them won't be perfectly timed. With perfect timing You can actually go as high as areas of 105k, to get 100k You can easily make few mistakes since heavy attacks are responsible for majority of Your dmg so reaplying ability one heavy attack later here and there have way lower impact on overall parse than it would on 130k double bar dynamic rotation parses. And when it comes to just using a heavy attack You can actually go above 80k with that alone so Your previous statement about 75k when people mess up their rotation is kinda incorrect. This is also more than lots of people trying two bar setups can achieve since learning curve for one bar heavy attack setup do not require as much from user as dynamic two bar rotation does.

This is just flat misinformation. I can go beat up a dummy the next time I am on, fully gold everything, all passives, CP, BiS traits, enchants, etc. etc. just the way most builds recommend, and then purposely mess up the rotation and skills a couple times, and guarantee I will not hit anywhere near 100k. I also bet that those running the "meta" HA build are probably averaging around 60 - 80k. Please keep in mind, this is while standing still, against something that does not fight back. Take this into combat, and that will easily drop even further. To say it isn't demanding to hit 100k on a HA build is just not accurate, and is out of reach for most of those use would use this type of build to begin with. Just as a 120 - 130k parse it out of reach for a large number of 2 bar build users. It's fine to be in the top 1% damage of the player base, and congratulations if you are, but after ~9 years, why cant people just accept the fact that there are less capable (not in a bad way) people who play this game, and not everyone wants to put their hands through a meat grinder trying to pull off some 20 skill, micro-managed dynamic rotation where your weaving requires weaving for hours while they play the game?

Sorry but You are incorrect. You can make mistakes and still get in the area of 100k, As the matter of fact You can even hit 100k. Just for You I did what You mentioned which is deliberately messing up the rotation. Here are the results.




You will find that I deliberatelly reaplied my curse too early 8 times. On the bottom screen You will find 30 casts of curse but on the upper one You will notice only 22 explosions. You can also go and check my screenshots from previous parse I posted earlier in this thread and You will notice that my average trap and familar recast times were around 16-17 seconds and in the screen provided in this post it went up to over 20 seconds. That is because I also deliberately messed up these abilities and applied them too late three times each resulting with average recast time increase due to downtimes these abilities had. So overall amount of mistakes I did was 14 and this is without considering the fact that due to said mistakes my crystal weapon recasts were also not as perfect as they would be in a proper rotation. And I still managed to break 100k. This was in 5th parse I did with deliberate mistakes. My previous results were 96k, 97k, 98k and 98,5k so still near 100k which You claimed should be impossible. It is possible. If someone is running meta heavy attack setup while having everything in it maxed out (including enough CP to unlock all offensive passives) and he/she is still not pulling over 85k than it is sadly just his/her fault. it is as simple as that. It may sound harsh but that is sad reality. There are people who no matter how easy things will get will always stay behind due to lack of even basic skill, lack of knowledge or lack of both. Sorry it's just how it is. This does not change a fact that one bar heavy attack setups are not demanding. It's like saying that riding a bike is demanding because some people cannot do some basic trick on it or cant even ride it.

And I will repeat it once again. I am all for one bar heavy attack setups being in the game, I have no isses with them I think they have their place and I even use them. It's just calling them demanding that I don't agree with. They are not demaning. The whole idea behind them is not to be demanding.

I recently ran some dungeons with a few players from a guild I am in. Both 600+ CP, and they wanted to do a DLC dungeon... on normal. I hardly ever run normal on anything so I got a guildie of mine, and we took them through vet. All I heard through that dungeon were comments about the dungeon, different aspects of it, the environment, etc. It sounded like they really enjoyed it... and it was the first time ever experiencing it. You know why that was? Because it was a DLC dungeon, and one of them just didn't think they could do it even on normal so they never tried. The other was too nervous to try vet. This person told me they really wanted to do more vet content... at over 600+ CP one has to wonder why one of them never even attempted the dungeon before... when they are clearly interested in doing them, and the other never stepped foot in veteran mode, even though they have a clear interest in veteran content. I'll leave your imagination to wander on that. HA builds are a HUGE improvement to the game for so many people, and they without a doubt have their place in the game. They are not as "ez mode" as some would like to think. The average person could mirror any build found online, and will not have anywhere near the results you see posted for them which is fine. Now people can concentrate on actually playing the game, and learning the content rather than staring at timers on their skill bars. ZoS needs to make more HA build targeted gear. Open 1 bar builds with simple rotations up to tanks, healers, and DPS. Give them a few options so they can still make some of their own choices. Those 100k+, 2 bar, 10 skill, dynamic, light attack weaving players will still be ok in the end. Making the game more accessible is not a negative thing even if it means there is an "easy rotation" for people to use to make it that way. The hate is unjustified, and good job on ZoS for adding this option to the game, rather it was intentional or not.

Well my imagination says me that people are just people. I guess You want to blame community that is gatekeeping new players from everything for the fact these people You are mentioning never tried to join DLC content but the thing is many times it's not about that. People are just people with their anxieties, fears and desires. There are introverts among us, there are people who avoid contant with others. I know a person who had 1200 CP in a old CP system where 801 was cap and that person never participated a trial for 5 years of playing because he was a fan of solo playing. I know a person who was avoiding doing trials in some progression groups despite doing top DPS numbers simply because that person was affaraid of people.

Yes I completly agree that one bar heavy attack setups in current form are improvement for the game and I never said otherwise. They are not demaning though. Yes they require some level of practice and knowledge and more knowledgable perople will still be doing better than others even on such reliably easy setups but that does make them automatically demanding if we define demanding as requiring much skill or effort.

p00tx

So, I say this with all due respect and love, but it's time for everyone to take a deep breath and refocus. After reading through this thread (No idea why I did that to myself. Masochism maybe?), I can palpably feel the frustration and hurt coming from so many of the posters, and a lot of it is due to just flat out misinformation.

No one in endgame is asking for HA builds to be nerfed. No one. Many of us actually advocated for more accessibility and went to bat for the learning players during the last big nerf cycle while testing on the PTS and offering data to the devs. We're not monsters. We're just regular people who have a little more free time and a lot more competitiveness than the average player. The simple fact is, if you're a HA player, you're very VERY unlikely to ever encounter one of us in game because we're not running the same content. We're not out there in vCR learning progs or Craglorn pugs (although I do kinda miss those). We're on core teams with the same people we always raid with (I've been raiding with the same team for years now, across two platforms), or we're doing paid carries for players who played their own branch of endgame and raised the gold to get a title or skin or mount they wanted, or maybe they just need/want the gear. We're not the ones trying to gate keep you guys.

Even if we did encounter a HA player in a raid, it generally wouldn't be a huge deal because a real endgame player can more than make up for what a HA player is lacking, provided it's not more advanced content. It's the other midrange players who generally struggle with their own dps numbers who stand to lose the most by including a HA build because their groups are already struggling to meet dps checks. This isn't because anyone is a bad person or even a bad player. I actually dislike the term "bad player" because it assumes the potential of that player, generally incorrectly. It's just how progression works. No one starts out super awesome at this game, and it takes time to not only learn the content, but to learn how to actually make use of core combat mechanics. It's a process, and we're all on different trajectories at different speeds, likely starting from different places. You're all fine, and it's just a game that's supposed to be fun. It's easy to forget that sometimes.

This game and its community is no different than any other community you'll encounter in the non-internet world. The social variants are many and you aren't going to like all of them. Not all of them are going to like you. That's okay. You find the people who appreciate what you bring to the table, and vice versa, and you find your own way to enjoy the game, whether you're heavy attacking your heart out, role playing in Grahtwood, beating people up in Cyrodil, or running a perfect rotation in a world record push. Spending your precious time feeling fruitlessly angry at a bunch of faceless strangers in some video game is just going to cut into your leisure time and detract from your joy. It's not worth it.

Ph1p

kbarc wrote: »

To work around the bar swap mechanic you need to make sure you are not equipping a back bar weapon. You can still get the mechanic, but it does little to no damage to you or others when you get it. Anyone can do it, even if you don't run oakensoul you can unequip the backbar and it won't have any effect. We saw some videos on YouTube about it, but was tested in normal. We spent a while testing on vet before seeing that it works perfectly fine in there as well.

THIS! Yes, there is still much misinformation about that mechanic. Just to add to @kbarc's post: If you have no backbar weapon and get Voltaic Overload, you do receive a small, increasing DoT that ramps from around 1k to 3k per tick. It is easily survivable and deals no damage at all to other group members close by.