One bar heavy attack builds attract hate ?

Ragnarok0130

Anifaas wrote: »

Reducing complexity of rotation allows new players to better learn mechanics and environmental considerations in the more challenging content, paving the way to try even more complex builds once the content is clearly understood. Increasing the pool of available players to engage in veteran content is just simply good for the entire community.

I disagree here; I'm a "train how you fight" man. I think new players are better served learning positioning, blocking, dodging, block casting, LoSing - ie basic dungeon and trial skills - while using their normal two bar build and rotations so it becomes second nature. What you recommend sounds to me like new players learning an easy mode then having to break habits and retrain muscle memory when they decide to use more complex builds in order to move onto harder veteran group content. I'd rather train them to standard from the get go so they don't have the down time from having to retrain themselves when they want to join veteran content making the immediately available supply of veteran raiders larger.

Let's be honest, ZoS has a history of creating demand for a thing and then completely upending the apple cart a few months later so players should learn two bar builds even if they want to use Oakensoul/one bar builds right now to prepare for ZoS' inevitable future chaos patch that guts them...perhaps repeatedly speaking as a Templar main.

jecks33

as someone who has been in end game since before the Morrowind era, through 2 platforms, that has farmed, golded and trashed tons and tons of meta-sets/weapons/monster sets/mythics, learned rotations, etc... now I'm super happy about HA builds.
I'm no longer in end game because all my groups disbanded and guildmates left the game between U33 and U36, but I enjoy doing vet dlc dungeons with pugs or some vet trial and I enjoy my stable and "boring" heavy attack gameplay.

P.s. and if someone tells me something bad about my build I reply "bro, we destroyed vHOF when 46k was the best dps possible, go away"

JJMaxx1980

I believe the Heavy Attack playstyle is in a perfect place and is exactly what the design team at ZOS was trying to accomplish since U35.

Let’s take a look at what Alec Verish from the Combat Team said in the Update 35 Combat Changes Preview:

Currently, to be truly effective in ESO’s combat, you need to learn to manipulate something that is known as “weaving,” which refers to the act of squeezing multiple actions into the global cooldown window. Doing so drastically increases your agency and output, and it is a staple of the game that we’ve come to embrace, as it helps our combat feel different and exciting to participate in once you learn the ins and outs. However, the impact of weaving leads to a massive gap in performance where players who cannot interact with it as effectively are left miles behind those who can. While this is partially unavoidable and an important part of what makes the mastery of ESO or any activity utilizing a similar system particularly satisfying, we want to do what we can to shorten that delta. The closer the gap between the low and high end, the easier it is to create content that can accommodate a wider audience, while making more natural progression points for those looking to improve.

So ZOS specifically understands that there is a large subsection of the playerbase that ‘cannot interact with (light-attack weaving) as effectively’ and are more or less shut out of content because they are so far behind in their output. So how do they close the gap? Well, they create a playstyle that is a balanced trade-off. Heavy Attack builds have a lower APM, due to longer GCD in HA’s and less abilities to maintain. So they are more accessible to more players. However, HA builds have a hard ceiling, around 100k. Most HA players will not even come close to that. They will average anywhere from 80k-90k. In my opinion this is a perfect spectrum to be able to interact with both regular and veteran trials, and most hard-mode trials.

This leaves space on the upper end of the delta for your ‘high-end’ elite endgamers. The hard-mode trifecta players. The score pushers. The world record makers. These individuals would not utilize this playstyle. For those players, they will hone their tenths-of-second weave rotations and hit their 130k-140k and make YouTube videos that we can all enjoy.

That’s why I think the balance is at a really great spot. Those who need more accessibility can get enough DPS to enjoy all the content in the game and those who wish to live in the upper echelon will still be able to put forth the effort and have 30% more output, which can clear harder content faster.

Of course there are going to be some LA-weaving players that aren’t at the top yet, they are still learning. I can understand how it might be frustrating if they are hitting the same output as someone doing half the work. However, they need to understand that will not be there forever and they will far exceed their HA counterpoints with practice and experience.

Lastly, as some who has hit 100k+ on both Sorc and Warden with these builds, I can clear up some common misconceptions. Firstly, this is not a ‘hold one button down’ build. Your rotation is mostly HA-Skill-HA-Skill-HA-Skill and knowing which skills are priority takes experience and practice. If a player took this build and just held Heavy Attack, they would only do maybe 60k. Now, can you load your bar with Fighters Guild and Inner Light to push a true ‘Heavy-Attack Only’ build? Of course, but why would you. I’ve tested that build and it maxes out at 80k.

In conclusion, the highest current 2-bar build is I believe over 140k. The highest 1-Bar Build is 105k. That is a big skill gap. Even if we assume average 120k for endgame 2-bar skill and 90k for average 1-bar skill, that’s a large enough gap for those who want to be ‘elite’ to still be that person.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

I am someone that generally plays a meta PVE build. Each patch that I am active in trials, I figure out the best combo of fun to play and effectiveness, dust off whatever class that is, and play it. I dont care what spec or class it is for the most part, but certainly, I enjoy some classes more than others. I can perform all but the craziest dynamic rotations within about 5-10% of the youtubers.

I have no issues with people running heavy attack builds. I think in theory, they are very healthy for the game. I would never criticize someone for running them, especially if they are newer to the game. I really have 3, lets call them concerns, about HA builds.

1. While I don't mind them being powerful, its not healthy for the game if they are on par with standard LA builds that take double the APMs. Skill and effort need rewarded, or the end game community will lose interest. I am not saying we are there, but we have been in the past from time to time. If the floor is above the ceiling, the house has collapsed.

2. I would be very cautious/hesitant to bring a HA build into a serious trifecta/prog group, even if they technically meet whatever DPS floor is being set. It would matter more in some fights than others, but HA builds really slow your ability to react to mechanics. For example, in VAS during the kite phase, I can do essentially full DPS with a LA build. A HA build needs to stop heavy attacking during that time, or they will get killed. LA builds are far more effective at keeping DPS on the target while following mechanics. Also, as noted, they don't do as well in support sets, so you might be forcing one of your better DPS to make the sacrifice for your group.

3. I think HA builds can be a crutch, or an artificial ceiling for a lot of players. In other words, they never have the incentive to really take it to the next step (learn a dynamic LA rotation), because they probably lose DPS in the short term while learning. In other words, I encourage players that are serious about getting better to continue to practice LA rotations even if they are running HA builds for most content.

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

As we've removed a few non-constructive comments we would like everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, as well as keeping things civil and constructive. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding.

MudcrabAttack

Manslayer49 wrote: »

yea as a stamblable thats 2 hander its impossible for me to reach 100k dps on a single target because nightblade dots are trash and i use a 1 bar oakensoul ring build.

Yeah 2H got left way WAY behind with the heavy attack buff.

I was testing out a Halls of Fabrication triplets AOE oakensoul build, and actually thought 2H should be pretty good because of the scaling AOE execute with reverse slice between heavy attacks, and 100% transfer of heavy attack damage to others in the vicinity with forceful passive, but I was totally wrong. Lightning staff heavy attack/ unstable wall spam gets about 20-30% better aoe dps. You would think melee could do better

Shihp00

Auldwulfe wrote: »

I tend to put it down to jealousy -- they need 2 bars and 10 skills, and another player can do it with one.....

Everyone can play 1Bar, it's why they made Oaken Soul in the first place .
I don't agree with elitists attacking less-skilled players for going the easy 1bar / Heavy-Attack route though. Personally can't see myself doing 1 Bar builds again, but I'm glad they exist (I'm sure lots of newer players will appreciate them).

definitelygee

I think we need to keep things in perspective. This is in response to the original poster.

As an end game raider or "toxic elitist" as you said. I dont personally think one bar builds are bad and i think they are viable for a large portion of content. Almost all of it in fact.

However if I was a raid leader in an organized trial environment with a specific goal (could be clearing hard mode content, trifecta, etc.), I would be crafting a roster with the best support and dps composition in order to successfully complete the trial with ease and to maximize dps. That means that for my specific trial composition I would not be including oakensoul/one bar builds.

As the OP pointed out its around 20% less dps. Imagine 20% less dps across all 8 + dps? It would make the goal significantly harder to achieve.

If you aren't willing or able to meet the requirements for my raid why should I be forced to accept your one bar build? In this case it's better to either make your own group or find a different group to run the content, in the way you want to run it. Or if you are adament about joining a specific group you do what everyone else does and you can choose to farm the requested gear and skills and learn the rotation required to fulfill the trial leaders requirements for participation.

It's kind of like wanting to be an Olympic athlete but you want special exceptions to be made for just you to be able to participate, but you don't want to conform to the strict exercise regimen, diet, training and experience required to be at that level. In this case you would not be able to be an Olympic athlete. However you can still be an athlete but just in an environment that is set up to handle and willing/able to adjust to your special exceptions and requests.

Heelie

I am not sure where people get this 20% number from, from my experience raiding Oaken Soul builds are usually around 60k and two bar builds around 90-110k. Two bar builds are sinusoidal with high amplitudes, and can peak at 200k damage therefore they can take much more advantage of group buffs like Major Slayer and War Horn than a one bar build that pretty much does consistent damage can, in a 100% uptime environment 20% might be about right, but not in actual content.

JJMaxx1980

definitelygee wrote: »

As the OP pointed out its around 20% less dps. Imagine 20% less dps across all 8 + dps? It would make the goal significantly harder to achieve.

If you aren't willing or able to meet the requirements for my raid why should I be forced to accept your one bar build?

I don’t understand your argument. Most raid leaders will place a DPS requirement for their group. Unless you need a specific role, like EC Cro, etc…Why wouldn’t you take a one-bar build that meets the requirements? In other words any DPS requirement should apply to any build equally. You want 100k minimum? What does it matter how they get that 100k.

Heelie

JJMaxx1980 wrote: »

definitelygee wrote: »

As the OP pointed out its around 20% less dps. Imagine 20% less dps across all 8 + dps? It would make the goal significantly harder to achieve.

If you aren't willing or able to meet the requirements for my raid why should I be forced to accept your one bar build?

I don’t understand your argument. Most raid leaders will place a DPS requirement for their group. Unless you need a specific role, like EC Cro, etc…Why wouldn’t you take a one-bar build that meets the requirements? In other words any DPS requirement should apply to any build equally. You want 100k minimum? What does it matter how they get that 100k.

If your group does 20% more damage that's around 20% more raids done in an evening. That's also 20% more leeway for a dps check.

JJMaxx1980

Heelie wrote: »

If your group does 20% more damage that's around 20% more raids done in an evening. That's also 20% more leeway for a dps check.

I’m still confused. If you’re filling a trial roster, are you using a DPS requirement? What is that requirement? “20% more” isn’t a number.

Heelie

JJMaxx1980 wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

If your group does 20% more damage that's around 20% more raids done in an evening. That's also 20% more leeway for a dps check.

I’m still confused. If you’re filling a trial roster, are you using a DPS requirement? What is that requirement? “20% more” isn’t a number.

Most groups don't fill by first come first serve, so if a raid lead gets to choose between 20% more or less dps, he will go for 20% more.

boi_anachronism_

Just state on the roster for trifecta trials that participants must be competent with a 2 bar build. Problem solved. While not super ideal for regular vet trials its still perfectly viable to clear with an HA build. Might very well be that doing a first vet trial with HA build might actually encourage folks to want to get into HM content and therefore work on skills with 2 bar. Ultimately I really don't see it as a bad thing. It gets folks into more content. Raiding took a huge plunge with 35. We should be working on trying to recover from that and get more folks involved, not intimidate them by saying they are lazy or don't want to get better. It could be the gateway they need/want. Be kind folks. Everyone starts somewhere.

definitelygee

JJMaxx1980 wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

If your group does 20% more damage that's around 20% more raids done in an evening. That's also 20% more leeway for a dps check.

I’m still confused. If you’re filling a trial roster, are you using a DPS requirement? What is that requirement? “20% more” isn’t a number.

You glanced over my main point which was "in an organized trial environment". If I am filling a roster. I will in most cases, take the 120k DPS person over the 100k DPS person. Its as simple as that. You want as much possible DPS as you can get in order to achieve a raid group or pick up groups goal, with as much ease as possible. And in order to do this, you need to optimize gear.

You must realize that more powerful sets like relequen, kinras and sets like nirn which has big buffs and dots which are buffed by in raid buffs/debuffs much more powerful than storm seargant, noble duelist and other most common one bar builds. And even if the person were to wear relequen and kinras on one bar, they are doing MAX 107k versus another person in the same sets but with kilt, a monster set and two bars about 25-30k more dps on a trial dummy.

One bar builds also limit the type of class, buffs and debuffs that the player can bring and attribute to the group/raid. And I am not intending to be mean or rude at all, but I highly doubt that a one bar build dummy parse will translate over into a raid environment. So most likely that person will be doing well below 100k in raid and the other raiders in there are having to carry the missing damage through the content.

So in the end. Its not about hitting a DPS requirement. It's more of what do you and can you bring to the group, besides damage from yourself. When you can have 2 bars and both do damage and bring buffs and debuffs to the group. Unless you can show me a 1 bar necromancer build with EC/MK colo and oakensoul doing as much and a necromancer with the same set up with two bars, then I am confident that oakensoul is not good for organized trial environments. This does NOT mean that oakensoul is bad for all groups and content. But I feel like things are being bent to a certain agenda which is all raiders hate oakensoul and their users. No, this is unlikely. The raiders just want their group to be maximized in all aspects and make the experience fun andfor their goals to be easily achievable.

Again this is only talking in the perspective of an organized trial environment. Otherwise oakensoul away and im sure no one will batt an eye or care what you bring.

JJMaxx1980

definitelygee wrote: »

You glanced over my main point which was "in an organized trial environment". If I am filling a roster. I will in most cases, take the 120k DPS person over the 100k DPS person. It’s as simple as that. You want as much possible DPS as you can get in order to achieve a raid group or pick up groups goal, with as much ease as possible. And in order to do this, you need to optimize gear.

You must realize that more powerful sets like relequen, kinras and sets like nirn which has big buffs and dots which are buffed by in raid buffs/debuffs much more powerful than storm seargant, noble duelist and other most common one bar builds. And even if the person were to wear relequen and kinras on one bar, they are doing MAX 107k versus another person in the same sets but with kilt, a monster set and two bars about 25-30k more dps on a trial dummy.

One bar builds also limit the type of class, buffs and debuffs that the player can bring and attribute to the group/raid. And I am not intending to be mean or rude at all, but I highly doubt that a one bar build dummy parse will translate over into a raid environment. So most likely that person will be doing well below 100k in raid and the other raiders in there are having to carry the missing damage through the content.

So in the end. Its not about hitting a DPS requirement. It's more of what do you and can you bring to the group, besides damage from yourself. When you can have 2 bars and both do damage and bring buffs and debuffs to the group. Unless you can show me a 1 bar necromancer build with EC/MK colo and oakensoul doing as much and a necromancer with the same set up with two bars, then I am confident that oakensoul is not good for organized trial environments. This does NOT mean that oakensoul is bad for all groups and content. But I feel like things are being bent to a certain agenda which is all raiders hate oakensoul and their users. No, this is unlikely. The raiders just want their group to be maximized in all aspects and make the experience fun andfor their goals to be easily achievable.

Again this is only talking in the perspective of an organized trial environment. Otherwise oakensoul away and im sure no one will batt an eye or care what you bring.

Again, no offense but this doesn’t make any logical sense. I agree that if you want 120k damage then choose 120k players, but that’s build-agnostic. That doesn’t matter what build you are asking for.

In my experience, this is not how trials are formed. Even in trial guilds, a roster will be posted and a minimum DPS requirement will also be posted. Besides specific roles bringing specific buffs like EC Cro or Zenkosh, if it’s a generic DPS then the requirement is the requirement.

A pound of feathers and a pound of bricks is still a pound. If a 2-Bar Templar hits 100k and a 1-Bar Warden hits 100k, it’s 100k. One bar builds don’t have some unique damage numbers. Damage is damage.

Your requirements are specific and unless you need a specific role, that’s what requirements are for.

Tannus15

Doing open vet trial runs I really don't care what people bring. 1 bar, 2 bar, werewolf, whatever. if nothing else i'll end up with some new data in my logs.

HM things start to get interesting. HM crags? whatever. I don't think i've ever done a vSO without HM enabled. It's the same fight.
Pretty much every other HM in the game we're going to have a conversation about it.
vHoF HM isn't very different and we're not talking TTT here. Chances are that'll be fine.
vSS HM well where are you going to slot that shield for lokkestiez? What impact is that going to have on your dps? Same problem for vKA HM.

The really sad thing to me is that these 1 bar builds also require certain sets to bring them up to standard like sergeant and storm master. In theory these sorts of builds could be a really nice way to get RO and free up one of the group supports.

Additionally a lot of the HA sets in the game involve building stacks and then using the HA to trigger, like Yandir, so if you're spamming HA constantly they are actually not good.

Kirawolfe

Going to weigh in here with my personal experience, though I'm no 100dps pusher, whether LA weaving or HA kathumping.

I LOVE LA weaving with my stamblade LOVE IT. I love bouncing back and forth between the weapons I have, lining up dots, doing the spammable, while being mobile and evading attacks/keeping at flank. It's exciting, it's challenging, it's flexible.

I recently saw a guild member's post about a Oakensoul HA build for his sorc where he regularly outperforms others in trials with a hell of a lot less effort. So I thought, eh, I'll give it a go, sounds kinda boring, but why not. XD

Set up something for my magicka sorc with Oakensoul, farmed Wayrest and Tempest until my eyes bled (kicking myself because I'd just deconned a bunch of storm master THE DAY BEFORE I READ THE POST) and gave it a go. My gear isn't quite right (some off traits, because I'm doing this for a pvp encounter of sorts, so some impen, some well-fitted and don't have the transmutes to fix everything) and I went for high crit.

It was extremely weird going from the frenetic dance you do with LA weaving, to basically holding down the mouse button for the entire fight (mostly), while hitting a skill to queue it between them. It was, as I'd expected, a little boring.

BUT! Man, this guy hits hard, and that was extremely satisfying. I can also see how very accessible this sort of build is to folks who have mobility issues or joint pain. It's effective and easy.

I think you're always going to find toxic folks who have rigid ideas of what the right way to do something is. These people are often coming from a place of inflexible ignorance with a dash of needing to feel superior. Whether you're hitting 100k or 125k you're doing great damage, so unless this particular team has a requirement of 120k+ dps with LA weaving only, there's no point listening to the crap they're giving you about using an HA build.

None of their arguments are valid. It is a right way to play. One of many right ways to play.

CGPsaint

Kirawolfe wrote: »

I think you're always going to find toxic folks who have rigid ideas of what the right way to do something is. These people are often coming from a place of inflexible ignorance with a dash of needing to feel superior.

None of their arguments are valid. It is a right way to play. One of many right ways to play.

You hit the nail right on the head, and this is the reason that I'm no longer interested in debating the merits of 1-bar HA builds with folks.

p00tx

It really just depends on your goals in this game. If all you want to do is vet content, your HA build is more than sufficient.

Hardmodes may be a bit trickier one you start digging into Rockgrove and Dreadsail, but if you don't mind being in there for a while, you could potentially pull it off.

Trifectas? If I had to hazard an educated guess (based on extensive experience in Trifecta trial runs and completions), I'd say you could MAYBE get through as far as Dawnbringer with one of these builds, but that would be a huge stroke of luck coupled with some fantastic supports and a really solid raidlead. For anything after that, you're not going to make the dps checks, period. You're not going to be able to keep up any sort of useful damage while moving as quickly as these trials require. You're not going to be able to do any damage while blocking or roll-dodging, as the mechanics require.

Another thing that people are missing is that the individual matters less than the overall group's damage in trials. In order for every player to reach their damage potential in any meaningful way, you need to include several support sets in your group comp. There are far too many sets for the supports to absorb, so dps have to wear some of them to round out the needed group buffs. A heavy attack build is not likely going to be able to focus on keeping any sort of useful uptimes with these sets, and will force another player who has a higher dmg potential to pick up the slack. That decreases group damage even further.

If you keep your expectations realistic, you can do just fine with one of these builds and even do quite well in regular vet content, but the second you start gunning for spots in advanced groups with it, you're setting yourself up for disappointment. It's not your fault. It's not the groups' fault. It's just how the game is made, and you have to be able to bend in order to play this game to its fullest potential. Lack of flexibility has never been good for any sort of group activity.

Tannus15

Kirawolfe wrote: »

None of their arguments are valid. It is a right way to play. One of many right ways to play.

This just isn't true though.
A lot of content requires self heals and shields which you can't do on a 1 bar build without sacrificing a lot of dps.

JJMaxx1980

Tannus15 wrote: »

Kirawolfe wrote: »

None of their arguments are valid. It is a right way to play. One of many right ways to play.

This just isn't true though.
A lot of content requires self heals and shields which you can't do on a 1 bar build without sacrificing a lot of dps.

This is inaccurate. Skills account for roughly 20% of the damage in a HA build. Using a flex spot for a heal, such as the Matriarch on a Sorc, will only reduce your damage by around 2%.

Sirona_Starr

My biggest gripe about the Oakensoul users/builds that I've seen is that while their dps might be acceptable, or higher than some two bar builds, they aren't the greatest group players.

Why move out of red? I can survive it. I just ignore mechanics, what mechanics? The mechanics that other people are spending their time doing because you stand in one spot, heavy attack put up a shield, don't block, don't dodge roll (because why? they say)

I'm not saying ALL HA one bar builds to this, but, it can create players who rely heavily on others, without even being aware of it. When mentioned to them, it is the above ^^ aka - I'll do my thing and you do all the mechanic things etc.

Oh, you need a rez? Well, I'm too busy standing in my spot, heavy attacking, but I appreciate you rezzing me because I don't dodge roll, ignore red, and basically just play alone in the group type thing. So what if it takes me 10 minutes to take down the boss by myself while you lie there dead......... you get the idea. Sigh.

haelgaan

Tannus15 wrote: »

A lot of content requires self heals and shields which you can't do on a 1 bar build without sacrificing a lot of dps.

nope. most of the damage is from the HA itself, and its splash damage. Skills are a much smaller share. If sorc, flip to the healy bird and slot a shield (so prey, wall, shield, and pets). if a warden, arctic blast and a shield, and you still have room for shalks, wall, and winter's revenge. heck, you can even slot Reaving Blows CP for more self heals, as the upper-right CP won't have much impact on your DPS (and a living DPS is better than a dead DPS)

CGPsaint

Sirona_Starr wrote: »

My biggest gripe about the Oakensoul users/builds that I've seen is that while their dps might be acceptable, or higher than some two bar builds, they aren't the greatest group players.

Why move out of red? I can survive it. I just ignore mechanics, what mechanics? The mechanics that other people are spending their time doing because you stand in one spot, heavy attack put up a shield, don't block, don't dodge roll (because why? they say)

I'm not saying ALL HA one bar builds to this, but, it can create players who rely heavily on others, without even being aware of it. When mentioned to them, it is the above ^^ aka - I'll do my thing and you do all the mechanic things etc.

Oh, you need a rez? Well, I'm too busy standing in my spot, heavy attacking, but I appreciate you rezzing me because I don't dodge roll, ignore red, and basically just play alone in the group type thing. So what if it takes me 10 minutes to take down the boss by myself while you lie there dead......... you get the idea. Sigh.

I hardly think that this is localized to just people using HA builds. My experience has been that most people that I end up with in PUGs fall into the category of player that you've described.

Xandreia_

This is probably going to be really unpopular and I'm bracing for the hate, but here is what I've experienced in the last few weeks running pug pledges.

As a healer main, my biggest pet peeve is dps who refuse to stand infront of the healer, I need to be able to heal the tank and dps at the same time, but 9times out of 10, sorc HA builds like to stand out of range of my heals and not do any mechanics, then I get the blame from them dying.

As a range dps you still need to stand infront of the healer to recieve heals AND buffs. As a healer I am not going to baby a 1 bar dps with 20k at best when they refuse to stand in heals.

The build its self isn't an issue. The issue is the people who choose to use it and refuse to learn mechanics and end up wasting the other people's time doing content they can not complete properly and refusing to learn how to complete the content.

At the risk of being called a toxic elitist or whatever, I would rather have someone with 10k dps that knows mechanics than a 100k dps who hugs the floor more than doing mechanics and staying alive.

CGPsaint

Xandreia_ wrote: »

As a healer main, my biggest pet peeve is dps who refuse to stand infront of the healer, I need to be able to heal the tank and dps at the same time, but 9times out of 10, sorc HA builds like to stand out of range of my heals and not do any mechanics, then I get the blame from them dying.

To be fair, if a MagSorc can't keep themself alive with Crit Surge while DPSing from range, then there are much deeper issues than just the HA build.

MidniteOwl1913

Xandreia_ wrote: »

This is probably going to be really unpopular and I'm bracing for the hate, but here is what I've experienced in the last few weeks running pug pledges.

As a healer main, my biggest pet peeve is dps who refuse to stand infront of the healer, I need to be able to heal the tank and dps at the same time, but 9times out of 10, sorc HA builds like to stand out of range of my heals and not do any mechanics, then I get the blame from them dying.

As a range dps you still need to stand infront of the healer to recieve heals AND buffs. As a healer I am not going to baby a 1 bar dps with 20k at best when they refuse to stand in heals.

The build its self isn't an issue. The issue is the people who choose to use it and refuse to learn mechanics and end up wasting the other people's time doing content they can not complete properly and refusing to learn how to complete the content.

At the risk of being called a toxic elitist or whatever, I would rather have someone with 10k dps that knows mechanics than a 100k dps who hugs the floor more than doing mechanics and staying alive.

Well the DPS runs around the room because the boss runs around the room. (Healer main) I run around the room because the boss chases me. None of us can stand in one place very long because of all the ads. So if people not standing in front of you is the worst of it consider yourself lucky.

All this regardless of class or level. Yeah, in pugs I mostly have tank issues.

MidniteOwl1913

CGPsaint wrote: »

Sirona_Starr wrote: »

My biggest gripe about the Oakensoul users/builds that I've seen is that while their dps might be acceptable, or higher than some two bar builds, they aren't the greatest group players.

Why move out of red? I can survive it. I just ignore mechanics, what mechanics? The mechanics that other people are spending their time doing because you stand in one spot, heavy attack put up a shield, don't block, don't dodge roll (because why? they say)

I'm not saying ALL HA one bar builds to this, but, it can create players who rely heavily on others, without even being aware of it. When mentioned to them, it is the above ^^ aka - I'll do my thing and you do all the mechanic things etc.

Oh, you need a rez? Well, I'm too busy standing in my spot, heavy attacking, but I appreciate you rezzing me because I don't dodge roll, ignore red, and basically just play alone in the group type thing. So what if it takes me 10 minutes to take down the boss by myself while you lie there dead......... you get the idea. Sigh.

I hardly think that this is localized to just people using HA builds. My experience has been that most people that I end up with in PUGs fall into the category of player that you've described.

Yup! Although I have no idea what build they are using. I guess that's a PC thing, an add-on.

colossalvoids

CGPsaint wrote: »

Xandreia_ wrote: »

As a healer main, my biggest pet peeve is dps who refuse to stand infront of the healer, I need to be able to heal the tank and dps at the same time, but 9times out of 10, sorc HA builds like to stand out of range of my heals and not do any mechanics, then I get the blame from them dying.

To be fair, if a MagSorc can't keep themself alive with Crit Surge while DPSing from range, then there are much deeper issues than just the HA build.

Depends what content you're talking about, it's absolutely right for normals but vet and hardmodes in most cases require an actual healer, especially for low mobility spec that can't block at the very least. You aren't supposed to live through a lot of damage instances without one, can't think of a single trial where you can just crit surge through, while it's easier in some dungeons, would require experience though.