One bar heavy attack builds attract hate ?

robwolf666

I only use one bar builds, if other people don't like it, tough. I play the way I like to play, not the way they think I should.
Besides, who's got more skill... someone who needs two bars to win, or someone that only needs one?

ADarklore

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Oakensoul is brilliant.

Update 35 was such a dumpster fire that it consumed my mages. It is only by converting them all to Oakensoul-based builds that that they have begun to recover. I've grown to quite like Oakensoul mostly because it eliminates so much micromanagement of buffs and lets me concentrate on actual fighting and reading my foes. I don't think I would call any of them heavy attack builds (except maybe my Oakensorc) but empower does allow heavy attacks to have a useful place in a one bar rotation.

Oakensoul is the only concrete example in the game I can think of that contributes to what the devs say they want - raise the floor. Nerfing light attacks lowers both the floor and the ceiling. Eliminating LA weaving would lower the ceiling but at what I'd imagine would be an unacceptable cost of rage-quitting among higher end players.

I finally got around to getting the Oakensoul ring yesterday, took less than four hours, so not bad. I tried it on my recently revived Stamcro and it was so awesome that I went back to my Magplar and switched all his loadouts over to a 1-bar build. I don't do HARD MODE content at all, but I will say it's SO MUCH nicer not having to constantly bar swap! As someone who plays on PC but with controller on the couch in front of a big screen TV... it just gets so confusing in the heat of battle to not only pay attention to avoid 'standing in stupid' but also focusing on what bar I'm on (because many times hitting bar swap on controller doesn't actually work) and also keeping up with the cooldowns. It honestly takes away my enjoyment of the game by having to constantly micromanage skills this way. In reality, I previously spent 99% of the time on front bar with my Magplar anyway, but now thanks to Oakensoul, I can actually get a bit better damage thanks to the ring buffs and can enjoy the game even more now that I no longer have to focus on bar swapping at all.

Hapexamendios

As far as I'm concerned the only place a one bar build isn't valid is when fighting Relequen in Cloudrest. That's the only place I can think of that requires a bar swap.

Hyperdeathstalker

Hapexamendios wrote: »

As far as I'm concerned the only place a one bar build isn't valid is when fighting Relequen in Cloudrest. That's the only place I can think of that requires a bar swap.

That is a fair point every build in the game might have to be adjusted as you cant 100 perecent meet all requirments, i.e ranged build or melee build. A new mechanic introduced can shift any build.

blue_peaceful_Manticore

Hapexamendios wrote: »

As far as I'm concerned the only place a one bar build isn't valid is when fighting Relequen in Cloudrest. That's the only place I can think of that requires a bar swap.

You can make vCR with np at all by using Oakensoul
https://youtu.be/j3SPxT8ZuGc

Hamish999

EnKor wrote: »

Hapexamendios wrote: »

As far as I'm concerned the only place a one bar build isn't valid is when fighting Relequen in Cloudrest. That's the only place I can think of that requires a bar swap.

You can make vCR with np at all by using Oakensoul
https://youtu.be/j3SPxT8ZuGc

I was just about to post the same video by Xynode lol

Heelie

Hamish999 wrote: »

EnKor wrote: »

Hapexamendios wrote: »

As far as I'm concerned the only place a one bar build isn't valid is when fighting Relequen in Cloudrest. That's the only place I can think of that requires a bar swap.

You can make vCR with np at all by using Oakensoul
https://youtu.be/j3SPxT8ZuGc

I was just about to post the same video by Xynode lol

He's testing it on normal so I am not 100% sure it can be done on vet, he's still taking damage.

AlterBlika

Just play as you want. I have a somewhat unoptimized master 2h build and 85k parse with it. It surely looks pretty strange to others when I just spam brawler, but for pugs dungs and trials (not very pug but still) it's nice. Ofc when I run with my guild and we're expecting to do some achiev/push score, I run a "real" build for damage, but otherwise it's fine, really. My advice would be to ignore and avoid such players.

blue_peaceful_Manticore

Heelie wrote: »

Hamish999 wrote: »

EnKor wrote: »

Hapexamendios wrote: »

As far as I'm concerned the only place a one bar build isn't valid is when fighting Relequen in Cloudrest. That's the only place I can think of that requires a bar swap.

You can make vCR with np at all by using Oakensoul
https://youtu.be/j3SPxT8ZuGc

I was just about to post the same video by Xynode lol

He's testing it on normal so I am not 100% sure it can be done on vet, he's still taking damage.

You have to swampbars in normal?

Dr_Con

one bar heavy attack builds have no burst and underperform quite frankly. Supporters of this build likely don't look at graphs where non-oaken users have their dps peak upwards of 200k.

i'd honestly rather work with someone who has no established build or rotation, because at least they aren't hitting their heads on a ceiling of their own making or being stubborn and causing arguments on relequen fights.

IMO, bring your oaken build to normals, not to vet groups where the goal is to clear or to reach trifecta.

P.S. we've seen relequen overcharge someone with oakensoul with no backbar on +1 resulting in killing/damaging others, the user took it off and apologized after that wipe, even though we too "did it for science." Xynode just posts a side mini fight, on normal, which is fine if your group doesn't ever want to fight Relequen and Z'Maja at the same time on vet (Relequen is the easiest to +1, and people shouldn't have to be conditioned to adjust around this build, least of all in PUG groups where some people may need to be taught the barswap mech). I see people claiming they know how to "oakensorc and do relequen" all the time, but even that video posted is hardly helpful- the bar swap mech may as well not exist on normal. It's an unnecessary accommodation, players shouldn't be trying to force other players to to work around an underperforming playstyle.

In all likelihood, if the summerset devs didn't go meta with the whole relequen barswap mechanic, it may have taken more time for it to become known and accepted that oakensoul underperforms after the last major nerf, but the simple fact is that trial leaders can't be accounting for all exceptions. If people die to voltaic and an oaken user is present, and they can't or won't swap to another build, the oaken user will be blamed and replaced- these players shouldn't be surprised if this happens.

CrashTest

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

CrashTest wrote: »

Is this really happening so much that it's an issue?

I run trials daily, normal and vet, with guilds and with pugs, with top tier players and with completely new players. In all those runs, not once has anyone said anything about anyone using a heavy attack build.

I'm in like 10 trial discords and I've never seen a sign up that excludes HA players. I actually just saw a sign up for an Oakensoul only run.

PCNA

I don't run trials, and in a pug no one takes the time to examine my build... But I've seen a number posts where one-bar oakensoul builds are referred to as cheats.

Another post solely about how wrong it is that players can hit over 70k while only holding down one button. (He was calling for a serious nerf to empower for "balance", because of it). I tried it and didn't get anywhere near that even on a dummy in the content of course it's a joke.

So yes some people don't like the idea of the HA builds and all the things that go with them.

I'm not disputing there are people who take issue with HA builds. My point is that I'm in endgame, so I know for a fact that it doesn't happen as much as the OP claims in the actual game among players actively in trials.

The only place I've seen people make such a fuss about it is this forum, and it's usually by HA users who claim no one wants them in their raids, but that simply isn't true. Most endgamers don't give two hoots what you're using and don't ask when you sign up for their non hm vet trial as long as you're not dead weight or designated support set wearer.

If any HA users still want to claim no one wants them in raid so it's a problem, what's stopping you from making your own raids? Endgame raid group setups are at the raid lead"s discretion, not yours or anyone else's, so be your own raid lead then just go do whatever trial you want.

PCNA

Soarora

As someone who doesn’t like HA builds, I think it is a good option to have in the game but it is a little bit too strong. A LITTLE BIT.

Rather consistently I see people with HA builds either being a menace (pulling before tank, not trying to do mechanics, not ressing, etc.) or standing behind the healer. But they do not learn since they do not die, probably due to class or oakensoul. (Keep in mind, I also didn’t like templars when the people who did such things were templars.)

More people in endgame is not necessarily a good thing. We need retention of current/past endgamers not a flood of new people (who will eventually also be disappointed and leave if retention isn’t focused on). That’s not to say that I think endgame should be gatekept, but I think the focus should’ve been on retention THEN accessibility.

I’m aware my opinion isn’t great and there’s flaws in my argument but can’t please everyone, I don’t care enough about the subject to argue about it. Just sharing my opinion since it was asked for perspective.

Edit: I do think people should be allowed into vet content with HA builds though, don’t get me wrong. I just am prejudiced based on what I’ve seen unfortunately. But I don’t play much anymore which is why I’m not bothering working through that currently.

Hyperdeathstalker

I think heavy attack builds get similar hate as with werewolf builds, its like a big no no doing damage using one bar builds. Ive seen werewolf setups which obv one bar hit 125k dps but that is light attack and heavy attack werewolf builds hit 90k mark. When you see a werewolf in group content you sort of get the worry card out , do they know what they doing etc and its seem heavy attack shares the same fate.

robpr

In trials there are some trials that are better for HA than others. When there are a lot of stuns or blocks, the dps will plummet while conventional build will block-cast their spammables and dots and carry on. Some content that require movement while attacking (Taleria, Magma Incarnate etc) is also not friendly for getting slowed for the channel.

The only place they can excel is properly tightened trashpacks but even there just spamming Carve with Master 2h or spin-2-win with asylum DW can produce better results with more bar space to fit proxi det or other sticky AoEs, not to mention shields or vigors. Having 2 ults enables some of dds to use additional Barrier in pinch.

It's not that HA builds are bad, but they are limiting you too much. They have less potential ceiling, you are slowed, cleave the boss at times when you are not supposed to, practically limited to lightning staves only, 1 less ultimate, cannot block-cast, any need to slot anything other than offensive skill is a noticeable damage loss.

Diminish

There is a simple answer to this. If you are pulling 100k dps by heavy attacking, and someone else is is pulling 120k dps by rotating a complex, and usually dynamic rotation of skills/la weaving... who is the real winner here? Work smarter, not harder folks! Sure, ha builds make combat complexity mindlessly easy, and to some they view that as a negative. They can still play however they prefer though. For me, I don't use any ha, 1 bar builds. I toyed around with 1 bar PvP builds briefly, but that was when High Isle initially launched. I would welcome any 100k ha build into my PvE groups without question. If things are dying, and they are dying quick, who cares what method is being used to make that happen.

Diminish

Heelie wrote: »

I usually try and avoid taking Oakensoul players for my groups for two reason. One Oakensoul players tend to do a lot less damage on trash pulls, you will typically see good dds doing in the millions of damage on a trash pull and an Oakensoul player struggling to reach one million. While Heavy attacks do AoE dps it really can't compare to a dd running full trash setup with magicka detonation and everything. Since dungeons are mostly trash packs I would much rather have 3 dps players with me with "proper" trash pull builds. The 2nd reason is fairness, When I run dungeons I typically run Orzorga's food as well as minor Heroism potions on my tanks, this usually burn 100k gold for 6 key pledges or a trial. While I don't expect everyone to invest as much as me, I often see Oakensoul players using no potions, and they often don't even bother running Artaeum Pickled Fish Bowl which would give them more damage and health. To me, just clearing is not the goal. I like to do it in a fast and organized way, even if it's just a "pug" run. Then there is the whole “disabled” argument which to me is just downright offensive.Telling disabled players they can’t play a two bar build is cruel. They can be just as competitive as anyone else.

So because you run expensive potions and food in a dungeon you expect everyone else to even when it is not necessary? I don't think I have used anything but trash mag/stam pots in a dungeon in years... Did all pledges (6 key) last night in about 25 - 30 minutes. Sounds like you are wasting gold to me my friend. Also, there are plenty of 1 bar builds that do plenty of AOE damage. Complaining about not being able to clear trash mobs "fast enough" seems like a weird opinion considering almost EVERY 2 bar build is built around single target DPS lol. That is like saying I prefer everyone to wear Plaguebreak so we can clear trash in 2 seconds, but proceed to take an extra 10 minutes killing bosses.

Shihp00

robwolf666 wrote: »

Besides, who's got more skill... someone who needs two bars to win, or someone that only needs one?

Idk what some of us are playing in this game, but I wouldn't call someone 'Holding one button' or using 3 abilities max, "Skilled" L0L. Would still choose the damage over someone with horrendous rotations though

Hyperdeathstalker

Diminish wrote: »

There is a simple answer to this. If you are pulling 100k dps by heavy attacking, and someone else is is pulling 120k dps by rotating a complex, and usually dynamic rotation of skills/la weaving... who is the real winner here? Work smarter, not harder folks! Sure, ha builds make combat complexity mindlessly easy, and to some they view that as a negative. They can still play however they prefer though. For me, I don't use any ha, 1 bar builds. I toyed around with 1 bar PvP builds briefly, but that was when High Isle initially launched. I would welcome any 100k ha build into my PvE groups without question. If things are dying, and they are dying quick, who cares what method is being used to make that happen.

Exactly if a one bar build pulls over 100k dps then double bar should be doubling that to be worth a whole extra bar. To have to light attack and double bar and only add 25kish to dps doesnt make sense to me. That double or treble effort for 20 percent gain. So overall not worth it unless there was dps checks in the game that we 120k and you simply needed more.

Its like hating on a tank that is not running a necro for the group res ? As long as the tank role if filled it doesnt matter.

And i like the work smarter not harder coz that exactly what regular builds are with hundreds of light attacks, must have to buy a new controller every year from wear and tear

I am impressed when people do good parses in the 130k region but what they have to do to achieve that is awful, then again might be more easier on pc with add ons. It is more a console thing?

Hyperdeathstalker

Also i reckon 110k dps is possible on a heavy attack build its creeping towards it, i hope more sets come in 2023 or a buff to some classes that will benefit heavy attack builds

Hyperdeathstalker

Come to think of it all roles heavy attack, dps , with healer i do heavies to restore mag, and tank to restore stam. 3 roles all complete with heavy attacks mind blown lol

Heelie

Diminish wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

I usually try and avoid taking Oakensoul players for my groups for two reason. One Oakensoul players tend to do a lot less damage on trash pulls, you will typically see good dds doing in the millions of damage on a trash pull and an Oakensoul player struggling to reach one million. While Heavy attacks do AoE dps it really can't compare to a dd running full trash setup with magicka detonation and everything. Since dungeons are mostly trash packs I would much rather have 3 dps players with me with "proper" trash pull builds. The 2nd reason is fairness, When I run dungeons I typically run Orzorga's food as well as minor Heroism potions on my tanks, this usually burn 100k gold for 6 key pledges or a trial. While I don't expect everyone to invest as much as me, I often see Oakensoul players using no potions, and they often don't even bother running Artaeum Pickled Fish Bowl which would give them more damage and health. To me, just clearing is not the goal. I like to do it in a fast and organized way, even if it's just a "pug" run. Then there is the whole “disabled” argument which to me is just downright offensive.Telling disabled players they can’t play a two bar build is cruel. They can be just as competitive as anyone else.

So because you run expensive potions and food in a dungeon you expect everyone else to even when it is not necessary? I don't think I have used anything but trash mag/stam pots in a dungeon in years... Did all pledges (6 key) last night in about 25 - 30 minutes. Sounds like you are wasting gold to me my friend. Also, there are plenty of 1 bar builds that do plenty of AOE damage. Complaining about not being able to clear trash mobs "fast enough" seems like a weird opinion considering almost EVERY 2 bar build is built around single target DPS lol. That is like saying I prefer everyone to wear Plaguebreak so we can clear trash in 2 seconds, but proceed to take an extra 10 minutes killing bosses.

Ýou can hot swap setups between fights. - Wizard's Wardrobe

Jeejee

So we are at a point in this game that nothing but a heavy attack build is worth it anymore because the dmg increase is only 20% with 2bar but requires 10 times the effort. And there are no dps checks that need more than 90k dps So doing anything else than holding down heavy attack is just a waste of effort at this point. Seriously what has this game become??? The Elder heavy attack online

Hyperdeathstalker

Jeejee wrote: »

So we are at a point in this game that nothing but a heavy attack build is worth it anymore because the dmg increase is only 20% with 2bar but requires 10 times the effort. And there are no dps checks that need more than 90k dps So doing anything else than holding down heavy attack is just a waste of effort at this point. Seriously what has this game become??? The Elder heavy attack online

Your still under the impression a heavy attack build requires no effort , granted the rotations tend to be easier than light attack 2 bar builds, but is finding a more simplar way makes the game redundant ? Some tank builds can hold block and hit almost no skills and complete most vet content, they provide no buffs to group and labled selfish tank. Its easier? yes holding block trigger same as heavy attack.

-You can spam 1 skill as a healer and win 98% of conent
-You can spam block as tank and little else and win 98% of content
- why is dps not allowed a more minimal approach?

Heelie

Jeejee wrote: »

So we are at a point in this game that nothing but a heavy attack build is worth it anymore because the dmg increase is only 20% with 2bar but requires 10 times the effort. And there are no dps checks that need more than 90k dps So doing anything else than holding down heavy attack is just a waste of effort at this point. Seriously what has this game become??? The Elder heavy attack online

This really depends on what you mean by dps checks, you can do vSS HM for example, but if you want godslayer you need the fast strat on last boss which then requires more dps. So godslayer is impossible with an all heavy attack build group, but probably possible with like 3 maybe 4. The same goes for some of the other Trifecta acheivements.

Manslayer49

yea as a stamblable thats 2 hander its impossible for me to reach 100k dps on a single target because nightblade dots are trash and i use a 1 bar oakensoul ring build.

Grandma

Oakensoul is the only reason I can DPS anything anymore.
I've gotten older and injured the joint in my trigger finger last year, it severely inhibited my ability to do anything with my dominant hand for over half a year. including ESO.
fast forward, it's healed. I try ESO again for the first time since summer [last month] after i'd given up most things that required using my hands extensively. tanking is ok, my right hand is just holding block or heavy attacking usually, maybe a light weave once in a while.
I tried DPSing one time like i used to- i used to be pretty good, not cracked, but i got GH on a dps role for example, so I was just good at dps before - and my finger couldn't keep up, it hurt for a full 24 hours after just from LA weaving one random normal dungeon. and that was with crystal frag spam sorc.

So i adopted a HA build of seargent's, wrath, 1 pc slimecraw, oakensoul, 3 pet blockade and bound armor for pure HA. it gets the job done. I'll never be able to DPS trifecta achievements again, but I can easily clean up normal randoms, pull my own in world bosses and not have to sweat it, and of course overland is comically easy still. So I can really appreciate what Oakensoul does. the divide should still be there, I think weaving and putting in double the effort for your rotation should still give you a bigger advantage [if Oakensoul does 100k, not using it should be giving you 140k, arbitrary numbers just saying for the ratio of damage for each thing, not saying they should do that much or little]. But afaik it seems like they're a bit too close for comfort. some people are able to hit 90-100k with HA oakensoul builds, which is cool, but full LA optimized builds with double the skills are only hitting 30k more? hardly seems worth it unless you're going for trfiectas, even then only because trifecats will demand at least a few defensive or healing skills so you'd need access to a back bar.

Dr_Con

Jeejee wrote: »

So we are at a point in this game that nothing but a heavy attack build is worth it anymore because the dmg increase is only 20% with 2bar but requires 10 times the effort. And there are no dps checks that need more than 90k dps So doing anything else than holding down heavy attack is just a waste of effort at this point. Seriously what has this game become??? The Elder heavy attack online

false, the people reaching those numbers on oaken builds are doing it on the backs of people running zenkosh, ec, mk, tremorscale, TT, SPC, pearl, PA, yoln etc. they provide nothing to other group members, and are completely at the mercy of the group and don't improve group dynamics one bit.

Anifaas

This is an MMO problem in general. Some players get their egos all caught up in their DPS numbers because they equate high DPS with a perceived elite position in the community. People doing less work for an almost comparable end result infuriates this group because for them to feel good about themselves they need to have something nobody else does. This is why the advice to play with grown-ups is so good because grown-ups typically run with the motto: "The more the merrier."

Reducing complexity of rotation allows new players to better learn mechanics and environmental considerations in the more challenging content, paving the way to try even more complex builds once the content is clearly understood. Increasing the pool of available players to engage in veteran content is just simply good for the entire community.

Auldwulfe

I tend to put it down to jealousy -- they need 2 bars and 10 skills, and another player can do it with one.....
They put in all these hours, and here is a way to do it easier .....

These are, usually, the same people that approached the game like it was a job --- they "put in the hours and work" on their parses ..... and therefore are resentful of those they see as taking a "shortcut"..... if they had to do all the work, how is it that someone else is just as solid... somewhere, in their mind is a small voice stamping a foot, and screaming "it's not fair"

I tend to pity them.... no matter what they say, there is, very obviously, a part of them that is no longer having fun with the game. Somewhere, in that time parsing, it became a job for them...and the get angry when it wasn't a job for someone else.

These are usually the same people that denigrate those casuals that could care less about trials, and higher up dungeons, because those casual people are still having fun, exploring, etc...... and the players that hate one bars aren't having the fun that they feel they deserve, and are frustrated that others might be having the fun that they feel that they worked for. Whenever they see someone finish a trial with oakensoul, they they feel they had to work for, they get upset.

Auldwulfe

Jarl_Ironheart

I've used one bar oakensoul before and I do see the appeal and it was less stress than bar swapping every second but it's not for me.

That being said I am in full support of people wanting to use 1 bar. Does it make rhe game easier for them, well yes it does. But it doesn't make them a top tier player like if you mastered bar swapping and had a optimal build. So what if people have a easier time doing high dps, who cares?

Dungeons, trials and arenas should not be gatekeeped and everyone should have the chance to beat them.

Also alot people who use 1 bar builds from what I've met are older and have arthtis or not as good reflexes as the younger crowd and that's awesome they have a way to stay powerful without hurting themselves.