ESO+ just lost a significant amount of value

Araneae6537

I don’t think that a change in release schedule represents a change in the value of ESO+ as it gives access to ALL DLC, so that the value of it only increases with time. In that regard, the only thing that decreases it is making DLCs permanently part of the base game (one time giveaways to a lesser extent).

I do enjoy dungeons, but I haven’t played all the new ones yet and I’ll wait and see what ZOS’s plans are for next year.

I am concerned abut the ESO+ rewards becoming less frequent because I worry that they may be phased out like the furnishing category discounts that were a monthly thing when I joined in 2019 and free crates that were given to members during free ESO+ weeks in the days of yore before I joined.

BlueRaven

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

G0K4R wrote: »

MrSpaM wrote: »

Pretty much all of the value comes from the crafting bag, so as long as that is still there then you're not really losing anything tbh

I can agree with this.

I don't care about anything but the crafting back and inventory slots. And probably many others can relate...

Tho it's frustrating in general atm. I cancel my sub every month cause I can't be sure wheather I wan't to keep playing next month. It's rly sad.

So many people here, willing to pay the same for less services. and have no issues with it.

This is a worrying sign for the future.

Or maybe, just maybe, a lot of people only subbed for the craft bag? If people can claim we're losing value based on the small amount of information we have now, you can't turn around and say people who never used that "value" are a problem. Just as many people sub for only the craft bag as they do for other perks of a sub. I've seen plenty of people say over the years they only sub for the craft bag, because that's the thing that has the most value to them. They're not lesser than people who only subbed for double bank space or for access to all DLC.

So you are in the pro stripping value from eso+ camp then?

I have never seen such a vigorous argument that getting less value for your money is fine.

I am not disabled, but if the town stripped away services for them I would not stand up and go “Maybe, just maybe not everyone needs those services.”

People feel they are getting less for their eso+ subscription. Maybe, just maybe they are allowed to complain about that. This pushback, this defending, of getting less value is just crazy to me.

Actually most people don't feel they are losing any value at all. Cause as the person you quoted and threw one heck of a straw man argument against said. It's the crafting bag. Almost everyone I know subs simply for the crafting bag. They could take basically everything else away and leave just the bag and many people would still happily sub. My guess is you didn't play pre eso+ crafting bag. Where basically 1 or 2 nights a week you had a min of 5 hour game session that was nothing but managing your inventory due to crafting mats.

So yeah the value is still 110% there for majority of subscribers.

For majority of subscribers?

I did not realize you spoke for the majority of players. I somehow missed the election on that.

And 110%? Wow we get value back for the subscription, amazing.

So with the future dlc gone. Did we used to have 120% value? Is 110% smaller than 120%?

Spartaxoxo did a really good dollar for dollar break down of the projected value lost. Read that.

Elsonso

BlueRaven wrote: »

But keep in mind the new “system” they are apparently introducing could be for everyone not just eso+ players. As far as we know it could CP 3.0.

That is actually an interesting dilemma for them. Do they make the new System part of a DLC and give it to ESO Plus? Then only the people that fork over the 2000-3000 Crowns would get it, outside of ESO Plus. That preserves the value of ESO Plus (sort of) but everyone else gets the ol' helical fastener.

BUT, if they give it to everyone as a base game upgrade, then what do they give to ESO Plus in 4Q, if anything?

They could also do a hybrid. Make it a DLC that is included with ESO Plus, but run their 3Q Chapter achievement promotion that would give everyone who owns the Chapter the DLC for free. Everyone else, and everyone who comes along after that, can buy the system for 2500 Crowns, or whatever. To me, this sounds like what they will do, but they won't tell us about the promotion until 3Q.

Amottica

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

I have not seen any argument at all based on detailed information concerning the sum and total of each of the three content DLCs will have compared to what we have been receiving in both quality and quantity.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

This year I received

Water's Edge House available for coin (Blackwood chapter) 6200 crown value

Blackwood (3500 crowns)

Ascending Tide (1500 crowns)

Firesong (2000 crowns)

Lost Depths (1500 crowns)

The total crown value that I received was 14700 crowns worth of stuff, if I were to buy them each from the store at individual crown prices. This is 107.98 worth of merchandise.

Next year I'll receive

No house = 0 crowns
New Chapter = 3500 crowns
1 DLC dungeon pack = 1500 crowns
1 system. Let's be optimistic and say this system has the same value as entire Q4 DLC release, and that I'll get it with plus, for the sake of argument. 2000 crowns

That's 7000 crowns of value. This is 54.98 dollars of value.

Even if you say well let's not compare having a house to not having a house because maybe this year was a one time thing, that's still 1500 crowns less. Which is 14.99 less value.

I valued Q1 at the normal dungeons pack price, because they already told us that the first half of the year will not see a change.

Q2 for ESO+ is High Isle, a known value

Q3 is 0.00 because they already told us not to expect value in terms of content this quarter, but instead that it will work on bug fixes. The system was not stated to be replacing this value, only Q4.

Q4 is the only unknown value. I set it for the sake of argument at the same value as what it was replacing. This is because they told us this what we can expect. Small zone dlc is 2000 crowns. You can choose to withold judgment because it might exceed the expectations and be worth more than the Q4 DLC. But, it's not unreasonable for others to set the expectation only at in what is in the letter, which that it will simply replace Q4.

And this is a good guess but that is all it is.

We do not know how Q2 will turn out as it could very well be higher quality and maybe even more content. Both provide increased value. Even the extent and quality of Q4 is unknown. Further, many will consider a good arena (solo or small group) to be much more valuable than a zone.

As such my statement that there will be a loss of value for ESO+ is pure conjecture based on the limited information we have.

spartaxoxo

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

I have not seen any argument at all based on detailed information concerning the sum and total of each of the three content DLCs will have compared to what we have been receiving in both quality and quantity.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

This year I received

Water's Edge House available for coin (Blackwood chapter) 6200 crown value

Blackwood (3500 crowns)

Ascending Tide (1500 crowns)

Firesong (2000 crowns)

Lost Depths (1500 crowns)

The total crown value that I received was 14700 crowns worth of stuff, if I were to buy them each from the store at individual crown prices. This is 107.98 worth of merchandise.

Next year I'll receive

No house = 0 crowns
New Chapter = 3500 crowns
1 DLC dungeon pack = 1500 crowns
1 system. Let's be optimistic and say this system has the same value as entire Q4 DLC release, and that I'll get it with plus, for the sake of argument. 2000 crowns

That's 7000 crowns of value. This is 54.98 dollars of value.

Even if you say well let's not compare having a house to not having a house because maybe this year was a one time thing, that's still 1500 crowns less. Which is 14.99 less value.

I valued Q1 at the normal dungeons pack price, because they already told us that the first half of the year will not see a change.

Q2 for ESO+ is High Isle, a known value

Q3 is 0.00 because they already told us not to expect value in terms of content this quarter, but instead that it will work on bug fixes. The system was not stated to be replacing this value, only Q4.

Q4 is the only unknown value. I set it for the sake of argument at the same value as what it was replacing. This is because they told us this what we can expect. Small zone dlc is 2000 crowns. You can choose to withold judgment because it might exceed the expectations and be worth more than the Q4 DLC. But, it's not unreasonable for others to set the expectation only at in what is in the letter, which that it will simply replace Q4.

And this is a good guess but that is all it is.

We do not know how Q2 will turn out as it could very well be higher quality and maybe even more content. Both provide increased value. Even the extent and quality of Q4 is unknown. Further, many will consider a good arena (solo or small group) to be much more valuable than a zone.

As such my statement that there will be a loss of value for ESO+ is pure conjecture based on the limited information we have.

Q2's chapter will NOT be part of ESO+ in 2023. The current year chapter is never part of Plus. High Isle is what ESO+ will receive next year.

High Isle is a value we can calculate right now. It's a standard chapter with no achievement house and its big feature is the mini game, Tales of Tribute.

Arenas used to come as part of the small zone DLC, so if it is just arena, it will be undeniably a loss in value. Murkmire gave us Blackrose Prison, Markarth gave us Vateshran Hallows. Clockwork City gave us Asylum Sanctorum, which is a trial. In order for it the system to represent an increase in value over previous years, it has to be something bigger than what they were able to previously release to us within DLC.

Shihp00

just reading the title, I thought they removed the craft bag

Hotdog_23

Amottica wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

G0K4R wrote: »

MrSpaM wrote: »

Pretty much all of the value comes from the crafting bag, so as long as that is still there then you're not really losing anything tbh

I can agree with this.

I don't care about anything but the crafting back and inventory slots. And probably many others can relate...

Tho it's frustrating in general atm. I cancel my sub every month cause I can't be sure wheather I wan't to keep playing next month. It's rly sad.

So many people here, willing to pay the same for less services. and have no issues with it.

This is a worrying sign for the future.

Or maybe, just maybe, a lot of people only subbed for the craft bag? If people can claim we're losing value based on the small amount of information we have now, you can't turn around and say people who never used that "value" are a problem. Just as many people sub for only the craft bag as they do for other perks of a sub. I've seen plenty of people say over the years they only sub for the craft bag, because that's the thing that has the most value to them. They're not lesser than people who only subbed for double bank space or for access to all DLC.

I have never seen such a vigorous argument that getting less value for your money is fine. .

I have not seen any argument at all based on detailed information concerning the sum and total of each of the three content DLCs will have compared to what we have been receiving in both quality and quantity. As we get more detailed information concerning these changes we are not able to have vigorous discussions that are meaningful. Until then this discussion is heavily flawed due to what it is lacking and that is a fact.

Don’t think it is heavily flawed. The point I see is what is proposed so far is less value vs. other years. We should not wait until they get around to having announced what they're doing in detail before we question its value. If we wait, it will be too late after they detail their plans.

This thread is good in at least it shines light on a potential loss of value compared to previous years value. Maybe ZOS will see it and consider adding some value to the current year, or maybe they have plans already and not completely announced it yet. Either way, this is an important thread to at least put ZOS on notice that so far, less value has been proposed and some of us are not OK with that.

 Stay safe and Happy Holidays

Amottica

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

I have not seen any argument at all based on detailed information concerning the sum and total of each of the three content DLCs will have compared to what we have been receiving in both quality and quantity.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

This year I received

Water's Edge House available for coin (Blackwood chapter) 6200 crown value

Blackwood (3500 crowns)

Ascending Tide (1500 crowns)

Firesong (2000 crowns)

Lost Depths (1500 crowns)

The total crown value that I received was 14700 crowns worth of stuff, if I were to buy them each from the store at individual crown prices. This is 107.98 worth of merchandise.

Next year I'll receive

No house = 0 crowns
New Chapter = 3500 crowns
1 DLC dungeon pack = 1500 crowns
1 system. Let's be optimistic and say this system has the same value as entire Q4 DLC release, and that I'll get it with plus, for the sake of argument. 2000 crowns

That's 7000 crowns of value. This is 54.98 dollars of value.

Even if you say well let's not compare having a house to not having a house because maybe this year was a one time thing, that's still 1500 crowns less. Which is 14.99 less value.

I valued Q1 at the normal dungeons pack price, because they already told us that the first half of the year will not see a change.

Q2 for ESO+ is High Isle, a known value

Q3 is 0.00 because they already told us not to expect value in terms of content this quarter, but instead that it will work on bug fixes. The system was not stated to be replacing this value, only Q4.

Q4 is the only unknown value. I set it for the sake of argument at the same value as what it was replacing. This is because they told us this what we can expect. Small zone dlc is 2000 crowns. You can choose to withold judgment because it might exceed the expectations and be worth more than the Q4 DLC. But, it's not unreasonable for others to set the expectation only at in what is in the letter, which that it will simply replace Q4.

And this is a good guess but that is all it is.

We do not know how Q2 will turn out as it could very well be higher quality and maybe even more content. Both provide increased value. Even the extent and quality of Q4 is unknown. Further, many will consider a good arena (solo or small group) to be much more valuable than a zone.

As such my statement that there will be a loss of value for ESO+ is pure conjecture based on the limited information we have.

Q2's chapter will NOT be part of ESO+ in 2023. The current year chapter is never part of Plus. High Isle is what ESO+ will receive next year.

High Isle is a value we can calculate right now. It's a standard chapter with no achievement house and its big feature is the mini game, Tales of Tribute.

Arenas used to come as part of the small zone DLC, so if it is just arena, it will be undeniably a loss in value. Murkmire gave us Blackrose Prison, Markarth gave us Vateshran Hallows. Clockwork City gave us Asylum Sanctorum, which is a trial. In order for it the system to represent an increase in value over previous years, it has to be something bigger than what they were able to previously release to us within DLC.

Obviously Q2 chapter will not be part of ESO+ in 2023. That is the norm as the previous year's zone becomes part of ESO+ at that time so it is not worth mentioning and irrelevant.

Arenas sometimes came part of the DLC zone, but not always.

I suggest waiting for more information on what all of this will look at instead of trying to fill in the large blanks on the new design based on antiquated information.

I think I am being misunderstood, as I am not saying you are wrong. I am merely saying we lack considerable information to show if you are right or wrong. That is why all of this is pure speculation, no matter how we try to spin it. Anyone can disagree with this as that is their prerogative, but it is accurate since we are having to use antiquated information from previous content release cadences to try to define what we will get with the new cadence since we have minimal information about what we will get.

spartaxoxo

Amottica wrote: »

Obviously Q2 chapter will not be part of ESO+ in 2023. That is the norm as the previous year's zone becomes part of ESO+ at that time so it is not worth mentioning and irrelevant.

Arenas sometimes came part of the DLC zone, but not always.

I suggest waiting for more information on what all of this will look at instead of trying to fill in the large blanks on the new design based on antiquated information.

I think I am being misunderstood, as I am not saying you are wrong. I am merely saying we lack considerable information to show if you are right or wrong. That is why all of this is pure speculation, no matter how we try to spin it. Anyone can disagree with this as that is their prerogative, but it is accurate since we are having to use antiquated information from previous content release cadences to try to define what we will get with the new cadence since we have minimal information about what we will get.

It is worth bringing up because thus far a common counterpoint to the idea of "ESO+" losing value in 2023" is that we don't know what Q1, Q2, and Q4 will bring. The counter point about Q2's chapter being of unknown quality is actually something that has been brought repeatedly as a general talking point throughout this thread. It's not just any particular person.

So, I think it is an important reminder that whatever is going on with the chapter next year is irrelevant to the Plus value that year. The chapter is a separate purchase and will not be a part of Plus in 2023. In fact, it is highly likely that Plus, in particular, won't get more than a couple of totally new quests for many, many Plus subscribers. Why? Because many of us purchase the chapter ahead of time. I think this is why it's easy to forget that the chapter is not actually part of Plus next year. Many of us plus subscribers will be buying it anyway. So, I think it's important reminder that next year's chapter is a separate purchase to 2023 Plus.

So, we can comfortably project that Q1 is unchanged (because they said so), Q2 will be lower value (High Isle), and Q3 will not offer Plus benefits (because it's just bug fixes).

The only unknown for Plus is Q4 and it actually has a very high bar to jump over. In order for 2023 to not be a lower value than prior years, the system in Q4 has to exceed the expectations set by the letter. It can't just be an equal replacement to the DLC, it has to be better than small zone DLC of the past.

But, that isn't the expectation they outlined. The expectation that they outlined is that it would simply replace the small zone dlc.

So, it is already worth noting that next year, as currently proposed, is a loss of value for Plus in particular. The game as a whole will likely benefit, but the new Plus perks themselves will be lower than previous years.

If we wait until Q4 to raise this concern instead of just going by the current proposal, it will be too late for any adjustments that they could make for 2023. Not to mention the point would probably be lost in the hype surrounding the chapter come January.

Anyway, I'm off to surprise bake cookies for Christmas Eve. Happy Holiday to you and yours, and for everyone else in the thread.

Savina

The following is just my opinion and nothing more, I understand from ready this entire thread that it is not the opinion of most of you. Just throwing in the mix to represent the other side.

I don’t feel like ESO+ is losing any value at all. I’ve been with TESO since beta, which means I paid the subscription at launch, I switched to ESO+ when it went free to play and memberships got you crowns, double bank space, extra XP, research, and Inspiration along with the ability to dye costumes. I really liked it when they added access to the DLC’s when they started putting them out. Loved the addition of the craft bag, was happy when housing went in that they added double housing space, when transmutation went in, and they added double the transmutes. While I don’t use the unique ESO+ statues I do enjoy many of the exclusive Crown Store deals. I was thrilled when they added the yearly membership also because that meant I was paying less per month than I had been before.

I’ll wait to see how it turns out with whatever new system they have in 2023, I’ll again be thrilled if they add something else to ESO+ even if it is just double storage of a new currency. However, I don’t expect it, I don’t expect anything other than to continue to get what I have been paying them for. The agreement I made with them gives me access to any DLC game packs available in the Crown Store. It doesn’t specify that a certain number of them will be added each year.

The way I see it, ESO pays me to be a ESO+ member. I pay by the year which comes out to $11.50 a month, monthly would be $14.99. There is not a lot you can do in the world today as far as entertainment goes for $11.50 a month. Considering all the years they have continued to add to the value of my ESO+ membership without a price increase I feel so long as they continue to hold up their end of our already in place agreement I’ll be just fine. If they wanted to take back something they have already agreed was part of ESO+ then I’d have a lose of value and be upset. But they didn’t promise me a certain number of DLC’s a year, and the fact that I already have access to 20+ and still only pay $11.50 each month is kind of amazing to me. If they take none of the below away…I’m good.

FREE CROWNS: You get 1650 Crowns (worth just over $15) each month which essentially means ZOS is paying you to play the game. If you purchase anything through the crown store, you will need to purchase crowns. If you go with the minimum subscription of month to month for $15, you are getting more crowns in return than it would cost you to purchase 1500 crowns.

DLC ACCESS: There are approximately 20+ DLC to ESO that come free with ESO Plus. Purchasing all of these individually would cost more than 40,000 Crowns which is more than $200. Or you can just maintain an active ESO Plus subscription and have access to all of them.

CRAFT BAG: The convenience of not having to play the inventory game across a dozen alt’s for anyone that does crafting or gathering of any kind. Also saves me from always having to run to a vendor or bank to get rid of the trait items and such from my sack.

EXTRA SPACE: An active ESO Plus subscription doubles my bank space, gives me double the home furnishing and collectables, and double the transmutation crystals. While it is possible to play without these, I enjoy spending less time playing “inventory management”. My game time is more enjoyable because I have all these things.

DYE COSTUMES: Yes it is a perk and one I enjoy, the Crown Store dyes seem very limited and honestly expensive considering I often change the dye on my costumes 4-6 times before I settle on colors.

FASTER INSPIRATION, MORE GOLD, MORE EXP: Nice perks 10% more experience, 10% more inspiration for crafting and 10% more gold from missions, chests, etc. Not something I really use after 8+ years with the game, however if I decide to start a new character, I do expect to have these.

TLDR: I’m astonished that so many people feel they are entitled to a certain number of DLC’s each year. While our opinions differ, I expect that just like me, each of you will decide in the future if ESO+ is still worth paying for or not. I will continue to pay my $11.50 a month for as long as they continue to provide me with what they are currently. Not much else I can do out in todays world on $11.50.

Elsonso

Amottica wrote: »

I suggest waiting for more information on what all of this will look at instead of trying to fill in the large blanks on the new design based on antiquated information.

One issue with "waiting to see" is that ZOS very rarely gives any heads up when they toss out changes. The avalanche has already started; it is too late for the pebbles to vote. By the time we find out about almost everything coming, it is too late. We need to speculate and form opinions and guesses as soon as we know something might be coming, in the hopes that ZOS can add these thoughts to their design or plans.

The_Titan_Tim

spartaxoxo wrote: »

They probably won't lower the price, because these corporations rarely do. But no matter what the chapter content turns out to be, the fact of the matter is we just lost 2 dungeons and a story dlc zone. In the final one, we didn't even get an arena. And this year also includes NO coin homes (not inns), an unprecedented decision.

Will plus subscribers get anything that represents this lost value? A house, a dungeon dlc, and a story dlc are just gone.

My assumption, which could be entirely wrong, is that they are going to pay-gate the new systems that they release for Q3 and Q4. As this is the first time that they would be monetizing solely a “system” so one could hope that it’s something that brings incredible value to all players, not just something niche like Tales of Tribute.

As far as ESO+ losing value, it’s had no value to me or anybody playing mainly PvP for years, the final straw that caused me to drop the sub, as well as quite a few other people I’ve spoken to (I talk to a LOT of people), was the block bug on u36 and the way that the team let it sit there for weeks, and only semi fixed it afterwards.

Overpowered set gear from new dungeons, forcing players that don’t like running dungeons, to run the same one on repeat as a means to stay up to date, is not what many would consider value.

spartaxoxo

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

My assumption, which could be entirely wrong, is that they are going to pay-gate the new systems that they release for Q3 and Q4. As this is the first time that they would be monetizing solely a “system” so one could hope that it’s something that brings incredible value to all players, not just something niche like Tales of Tribute.

Q3 won't have any content. It's just going to be bug fixes. There's no way they pay gate fixing bugs. I assumed that Q4 would be pay gated and replace the current Q4 dlc in my calculation I posted earlier. It still represented a lower projected retail value of around 14.99 less content added to the sub.

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

As far as ESO+ losing value, it’s had no value to me or anybody playing mainly PvP for years, the final straw that caused me to drop the sub, as well as quite a few other people I’ve spoken to (I talk to a LOT of people), was the block bug on u36 and the way that the team let it sit there for weeks, and only semi fixed it afterwards.

Overpowered set gear from new dungeons, forcing players that don’t like running dungeons, to run the same one on repeat as a means to stay up to date, is not what many would consider value.

I am talking about the projected retail value of the added content, not whether or not that content is to anyone's specific taste. There's no accounting for taste.

spartaxoxo

Here's the dollar for dollar breakdown again, I should probably also add this to the opening post.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ETA

This year I received

Water's Edge House available for coin (Blackwood chapter) 6200 crown value

Blackwood (3500 crowns)

Ascending Tide (1500 crowns)

Firesong (2000 crowns)

Lost Depths (1500 crowns)

The total crown value that I received was 14700 crowns worth of stuff, if I were to buy them each from the store at individual crown prices. This is 107.98 worth of merchandise.

Next year I'll receive

No house = 0 crowns
New Chapter = 3500 crowns
1 DLC dungeon pack = 1500 crowns
1 system. Let's be optimistic and say this system has the same value as entire Q4 DLC release, and that I'll get it with plus, for the sake of argument. 2000 crowns

That's 7000 crowns of value. This is 54.98 dollars of value.

Even if you say well let's not compare having a house to not having a house because maybe this year was a one time thing, that's still 1500 crowns less. Which is 14.99 less value.

DMuehlhausen

BlueRaven wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

G0K4R wrote: »

MrSpaM wrote: »

Pretty much all of the value comes from the crafting bag, so as long as that is still there then you're not really losing anything tbh

I can agree with this.

I don't care about anything but the crafting back and inventory slots. And probably many others can relate...

Tho it's frustrating in general atm. I cancel my sub every month cause I can't be sure wheather I wan't to keep playing next month. It's rly sad.

So many people here, willing to pay the same for less services. and have no issues with it.

This is a worrying sign for the future.

Or maybe, just maybe, a lot of people only subbed for the craft bag? If people can claim we're losing value based on the small amount of information we have now, you can't turn around and say people who never used that "value" are a problem. Just as many people sub for only the craft bag as they do for other perks of a sub. I've seen plenty of people say over the years they only sub for the craft bag, because that's the thing that has the most value to them. They're not lesser than people who only subbed for double bank space or for access to all DLC.

So you are in the pro stripping value from eso+ camp then?

I have never seen such a vigorous argument that getting less value for your money is fine.

I am not disabled, but if the town stripped away services for them I would not stand up and go “Maybe, just maybe not everyone needs those services.”

People feel they are getting less for their eso+ subscription. Maybe, just maybe they are allowed to complain about that. This pushback, this defending, of getting less value is just crazy to me.

Actually most people don't feel they are losing any value at all. Cause as the person you quoted and threw one heck of a straw man argument against said. It's the crafting bag. Almost everyone I know subs simply for the crafting bag. They could take basically everything else away and leave just the bag and many people would still happily sub. My guess is you didn't play pre eso+ crafting bag. Where basically 1 or 2 nights a week you had a min of 5 hour game session that was nothing but managing your inventory due to crafting mats.

So yeah the value is still 110% there for majority of subscribers.

For majority of subscribers?

I did not realize you spoke for the majority of players. I somehow missed the election on that.

And 110%? Wow we get value back for the subscription, amazing.

So with the future dlc gone. Did we used to have 120% value? Is 110% smaller than 120%?

Spartaxoxo did a really good dollar for dollar break down of the projected value lost. Read that.

go manually poll every sub and I'm confident the majority would say the value is still there simply from the crafting bag. Cause well it is. That bag alone saves you literally days worth of play time not having to sit and manage you inventory. They could double the sub cost to 30$/month and I think at least half subs would keep it.

spartaxoxo

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

G0K4R wrote: »

MrSpaM wrote: »

Pretty much all of the value comes from the crafting bag, so as long as that is still there then you're not really losing anything tbh

I can agree with this.

I don't care about anything but the crafting back and inventory slots. And probably many others can relate...

Tho it's frustrating in general atm. I cancel my sub every month cause I can't be sure wheather I wan't to keep playing next month. It's rly sad.

So many people here, willing to pay the same for less services. and have no issues with it.

This is a worrying sign for the future.

Or maybe, just maybe, a lot of people only subbed for the craft bag? If people can claim we're losing value based on the small amount of information we have now, you can't turn around and say people who never used that "value" are a problem. Just as many people sub for only the craft bag as they do for other perks of a sub. I've seen plenty of people say over the years they only sub for the craft bag, because that's the thing that has the most value to them. They're not lesser than people who only subbed for double bank space or for access to all DLC.

So you are in the pro stripping value from eso+ camp then?

I have never seen such a vigorous argument that getting less value for your money is fine.

I am not disabled, but if the town stripped away services for them I would not stand up and go “Maybe, just maybe not everyone needs those services.”

People feel they are getting less for their eso+ subscription. Maybe, just maybe they are allowed to complain about that. This pushback, this defending, of getting less value is just crazy to me.

Actually most people don't feel they are losing any value at all. Cause as the person you quoted and threw one heck of a straw man argument against said. It's the crafting bag. Almost everyone I know subs simply for the crafting bag. They could take basically everything else away and leave just the bag and many people would still happily sub. My guess is you didn't play pre eso+ crafting bag. Where basically 1 or 2 nights a week you had a min of 5 hour game session that was nothing but managing your inventory due to crafting mats.

So yeah the value is still 110% there for majority of subscribers.

For majority of subscribers?

I did not realize you spoke for the majority of players. I somehow missed the election on that.

And 110%? Wow we get value back for the subscription, amazing.

So with the future dlc gone. Did we used to have 120% value? Is 110% smaller than 120%?

Spartaxoxo did a really good dollar for dollar break down of the projected value lost. Read that.

go manually poll every sub and I'm confident the majority would say the value is still there simply from the crafting bag. Cause well it is. That bag alone saves you literally days worth of play time not having to sit and manage you inventory. They could double the sub cost to 30$/month and I think at least half subs would keep it.

A big reason we have the crafting bag in the first place is because ZOS moved to the chapter model for the next big dlc immediately after its introduction. This meant that there would be one less "new to everyone" dlc as part of plus each year. So, ZOS added the crafting bag to replace this lost additional value.

Now people are using it to say that ESO+ shouldn't get any adjustments for the loss of two new additional dlc each year. Ironic.

Elsonso

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Q3 won't have any content. It's just going to be bug fixes. There's no way they pay gate fixing bugs.

"Q3: Focus on Quality-of-Life improvements and bug fixes. " Bug fixes and QoL. They can pay gate QoL, but they probably won't. Net loss for 2023 ESO Plus, as it stands today.

spartaxoxo

Elsonso wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Q3 won't have any content. It's just going to be bug fixes. There's no way they pay gate fixing bugs.

"Q3: Focus on Quality-of-Life improvements and bug fixes. " Bug fixes and QoL. They can pay gate QoL, but they probably won't. Net loss for 2023 ESO Plus, as it stands today.

I read QOL fixes as stuff like searchable guild traders, which they can't pay gate. It's definitely not going to be content. But I guess something like the armory might be considered a QOL change by them. Even that was free though. Although it was partially pay gated.

BlueRaven

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

G0K4R wrote: »

MrSpaM wrote: »

Pretty much all of the value comes from the crafting bag, so as long as that is still there then you're not really losing anything tbh

I can agree with this.

I don't care about anything but the crafting back and inventory slots. And probably many others can relate...

Tho it's frustrating in general atm. I cancel my sub every month cause I can't be sure wheather I wan't to keep playing next month. It's rly sad.

So many people here, willing to pay the same for less services. and have no issues with it.

This is a worrying sign for the future.

Or maybe, just maybe, a lot of people only subbed for the craft bag? If people can claim we're losing value based on the small amount of information we have now, you can't turn around and say people who never used that "value" are a problem. Just as many people sub for only the craft bag as they do for other perks of a sub. I've seen plenty of people say over the years they only sub for the craft bag, because that's the thing that has the most value to them. They're not lesser than people who only subbed for double bank space or for access to all DLC.

So you are in the pro stripping value from eso+ camp then?

I have never seen such a vigorous argument that getting less value for your money is fine.

I am not disabled, but if the town stripped away services for them I would not stand up and go “Maybe, just maybe not everyone needs those services.”

People feel they are getting less for their eso+ subscription. Maybe, just maybe they are allowed to complain about that. This pushback, this defending, of getting less value is just crazy to me.

Actually most people don't feel they are losing any value at all. Cause as the person you quoted and threw one heck of a straw man argument against said. It's the crafting bag. Almost everyone I know subs simply for the crafting bag. They could take basically everything else away and leave just the bag and many people would still happily sub. My guess is you didn't play pre eso+ crafting bag. Where basically 1 or 2 nights a week you had a min of 5 hour game session that was nothing but managing your inventory due to crafting mats.

So yeah the value is still 110% there for majority of subscribers.

For majority of subscribers?

I did not realize you spoke for the majority of players. I somehow missed the election on that.

And 110%? Wow we get value back for the subscription, amazing.

So with the future dlc gone. Did we used to have 120% value? Is 110% smaller than 120%?

Spartaxoxo did a really good dollar for dollar break down of the projected value lost. Read that.

go manually poll every sub and I'm confident the majority would say the value is still there simply from the crafting bag. Cause well it is. That bag alone saves you literally days worth of play time not having to sit and manage you inventory. They could double the sub cost to 30$/month and I think at least half subs would keep it.

If I were to go and make a poll that asks;

“For two dollars, would you rather have a medium pack of fries or a small pack of fries.”

I would say most people would say they want the medium pack of fries, I am quite confident people want more for their money.

You are arguing that people are content having a small pack of fries, less for their money. Which to me is a baffling take on this situation.

Whatever, I am tired of having this argument with you.
You can claim that you speak for a majority of players, you don’t. You can claim no value was lost, again false (as shown just above). But zos is not going to come over to your house and hang out with you for defending them They are a company, their aim is to make money. And if they can make more money by cutting what they give us for the same subscription cost, and they feel they can get away with it, they will.

Eso+ appears to be losing value, maybe not everyone cares about that (they should), but it appears it is regardless. You, as a customer, should be concerned about it.

Elsonso

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Q3 won't have any content. It's just going to be bug fixes. There's no way they pay gate fixing bugs.

"Q3: Focus on Quality-of-Life improvements and bug fixes. " Bug fixes and QoL. They can pay gate QoL, but they probably won't. Net loss for 2023 ESO Plus, as it stands today.

I read QOL fixes as stuff like searchable guild traders, which they can't pay gate. It's definitely not going to be content. But I guess something like the armory might be considered a QOL change by them. Even that was free though. Although it was partially pay gated.

The thing about "Quality of Life" is that they can slap that label on whatever they want.

I don't think they will pay gate it, but they could if they wanted to. Even searchable guild traders. They could add an entire gating mechanism where the DLC purchase toggles things on and off. If you don't own the DLC, the option isn't there, or is greyed out. If you are ESO Plus, or own the DLC, then it can be used. Whether this one falls butter side up, or butter side down, depends on the direction monetization is blowing inside the studio.

I think they will definitely pay gate the 4Q system. Not this year, though. This year, I bet it is free, even if by promotion.

Arunei

BlueRaven wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

G0K4R wrote: »

MrSpaM wrote: »

Pretty much all of the value comes from the crafting bag, so as long as that is still there then you're not really losing anything tbh

I can agree with this.

I don't care about anything but the crafting back and inventory slots. And probably many others can relate...

Tho it's frustrating in general atm. I cancel my sub every month cause I can't be sure wheather I wan't to keep playing next month. It's rly sad.

So many people here, willing to pay the same for less services. and have no issues with it.

This is a worrying sign for the future.

Or maybe, just maybe, a lot of people only subbed for the craft bag? If people can claim we're losing value based on the small amount of information we have now, you can't turn around and say people who never used that "value" are a problem. Just as many people sub for only the craft bag as they do for other perks of a sub. I've seen plenty of people say over the years they only sub for the craft bag, because that's the thing that has the most value to them. They're not lesser than people who only subbed for double bank space or for access to all DLC.

So you are in the pro stripping value from eso+ camp then?

I have never seen such a vigorous argument that getting less value for your money is fine.

I am not disabled, but if the town stripped away services for them I would not stand up and go “Maybe, just maybe not everyone needs those services.”

People feel they are getting less for their eso+ subscription. Maybe, just maybe they are allowed to complain about that. This pushback, this defending, of getting less value is just crazy to me.

You claimed people who ONLY CARE ABOUT RHE CRAFT BAG are a problem. To the people who only sub for that, literally nothing else is of value. Just because you think everything else is or other certain perks are doesn't mean the people who don't are a problem or are wrong. Your whole argument is coming down to "people who don't value the same things as I do are an issue".

There are quite literally people who only pay for a sub to get the crafting bag. They pay 16 or however much it is a month where they are solely for that feature. If everything else is taken they won't care because none of the other perks mattered to them. You don't get to decide for everyone else what the value of subbing is. If people are allowed to complain about losing value, then people are also allowed to be content with the value they attribute to something. To claim otherwise is to be a hypocrite. You can't say only the people on one side of an argument are allowed to feel that way and anyon who doesn't is problematic.

The defending is the simple fact that until the global reveal, we won't know in detail what we're getting to replace the dungeon/second zone DLC. People are defending by saying "wait and see what we're going to get" because we don't have enough information to base this claim on right now. It's why I said a more appropriate title of "we might be losing value" is a better one.

Also, your example of removing accessibility is a really poor one. ZOS isn't removing accessibility from the game, and value is a separate thing from accessibility. Comparing the loss of a few DLC to making something very difficult or impossible for a large number of people is quite a stretch. A better comparison would be if a movie theater that included the price of a drink and large popcorn in the price of a ticket stopped doing so.

And for the record, I sub for most of the perks, including DLC being included. But because I rely heavily on the craft bag, double bank/housing slots, and costume dyeing, I personally don't feel like any value as been lost thanks to not getting a DLC zone. My value is not the same as yours, therefore I don't feel like I'm getting less because I'm still getting value for what I pay.

BlueRaven

Arunei wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

G0K4R wrote: »

MrSpaM wrote: »

Pretty much all of the value comes from the crafting bag, so as long as that is still there then you're not really losing anything tbh

I can agree with this.

I don't care about anything but the crafting back and inventory slots. And probably many others can relate...

Tho it's frustrating in general atm. I cancel my sub every month cause I can't be sure wheather I wan't to keep playing next month. It's rly sad.

So many people here, willing to pay the same for less services. and have no issues with it.

This is a worrying sign for the future.

Or maybe, just maybe, a lot of people only subbed for the craft bag? If people can claim we're losing value based on the small amount of information we have now, you can't turn around and say people who never used that "value" are a problem. Just as many people sub for only the craft bag as they do for other perks of a sub. I've seen plenty of people say over the years they only sub for the craft bag, because that's the thing that has the most value to them. They're not lesser than people who only subbed for double bank space or for access to all DLC.

So you are in the pro stripping value from eso+ camp then?

I have never seen such a vigorous argument that getting less value for your money is fine.

I am not disabled, but if the town stripped away services for them I would not stand up and go “Maybe, just maybe not everyone needs those services.”

People feel they are getting less for their eso+ subscription. Maybe, just maybe they are allowed to complain about that. This pushback, this defending, of getting less value is just crazy to me.

You claimed people who ONLY CARE ABOUT RHE CRAFT BAG are a problem. To the people who only sub for that, literally nothing else is of value. Just because you think everything else is or other certain perks are doesn't mean the people who don't are a problem or are wrong. Your whole argument is coming down to "people who don't value the same things as I do are an issue".

There are quite literally people who only pay for a sub to get the crafting bag. They pay 16 or however much it is a month where they are solely for that feature. If everything else is taken they won't care because none of the other perks mattered to them. You don't get to decide for everyone else what the value of subbing is. If people are allowed to complain about losing value, then people are also allowed to be content with the value they attribute to something. To claim otherwise is to be a hypocrite. You can't say only the people on one side of an argument are allowed to feel that way and anyon who doesn't is problematic.

The defending is the simple fact that until the global reveal, we won't know in detail what we're getting to replace the dungeon/second zone DLC. People are defending by saying "wait and see what we're going to get" because we don't have enough information to base this claim on right now. It's why I said a more appropriate title of "we might be losing value" is a better one.

Also, your example of removing accessibility is a really poor one. ZOS isn't removing accessibility from the game, and value is a separate thing from accessibility. Comparing the loss of a few DLC to making something very difficult or impossible for a large number of people is quite a stretch. A better comparison would be if a movie theater that included the price of a drink and large popcorn in the price of a ticket stopped doing so.

And for the record, I sub for most of the perks, including DLC being included. But because I rely heavily on the craft bag, double bank/housing slots, and costume dyeing, I personally don't feel like any value as been lost thanks to not getting a DLC zone. My value is not the same as yours, therefore I don't feel like I'm getting less because I'm still getting value for what I pay.

What is this obsession with the craft bag argument?

Link me one time I said the craft was not great.

Link me one time I said the craft bag was expendable, or I think it should be cut in favor of other things. If anything I want a furniture bag as well as a craft bag.

But eso+ is more than just a craft bag. And the “more than” part is what I and others are concerned about.

Don’t worry your craft bag is not going anywhere, I think I can confidently say all of us who have it, love it. But can we focus on the other parts of what we pay a subscription for now?

spartaxoxo

To be clear there are two operating definitions of value being used in this thread.

One has to do with the price of the items you're getting in your bundle. The retail value does not depend on whether or not the customer will use the full thing after purchase. It is an objective measurement. You measure this by adding up the price of each of the items inside the bundle.

Personal Value is the consumer assessment a customer makes about the quality, taste, etc of a product. If you personally value ESO plus only for the crafting bag, nobody can tell you that your personal reasons are wrong. It is entirely subjective. It does not change the price of the items you receive in your ESO+.


Edit: The opening post is speaking strictly of the price value, not personal value.

Amottica

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Obviously Q2 chapter will not be part of ESO+ in 2023. That is the norm as the previous year's zone becomes part of ESO+ at that time so it is not worth mentioning and irrelevant.

Arenas sometimes came part of the DLC zone, but not always.

I suggest waiting for more information on what all of this will look at instead of trying to fill in the large blanks on the new design based on antiquated information.

I think I am being misunderstood, as I am not saying you are wrong. I am merely saying we lack considerable information to show if you are right or wrong. That is why all of this is pure speculation, no matter how we try to spin it. Anyone can disagree with this as that is their prerogative, but it is accurate since we are having to use antiquated information from previous content release cadences to try to define what we will get with the new cadence since we have minimal information about what we will get.

It is worth bringing up because thus far a common counterpoint to the idea of "ESO+" losing value in 2023" is that we don't know what Q1, Q2, and Q4 will bring. The counter point about Q2's chapter being of unknown quality is actually something that has been brought repeatedly as a general talking point throughout this thread. It's not just any particular person.

So, I think it is an important reminder that whatever is going on with the chapter next year is irrelevant to the Plus value that year. The chapter is a separate purchase and will not be a part of Plus in 2023. In fact, it is highly likely that Plus, in particular, won't get more than a couple of totally new quests for many, many Plus subscribers. Why? Because many of us purchase the chapter ahead of time. I think this is why it's easy to forget that the chapter is not actually part of Plus next year. Many of us plus subscribers will be buying it anyway. So, I think it's important reminder that next year's chapter is a separate purchase to 2023 Plus.

So, we can comfortably project that Q1 is unchanged (because they said so), Q2 will be lower value (High Isle), and Q3 will not offer Plus benefits (because it's just bug fixes).

The only unknown for Plus is Q4 and it actually has a very high bar to jump over. In order for 2023 to not be a lower value than prior years, the system in Q4 has to exceed the expectations set by the letter. It can't just be an equal replacement to the DLC, it has to be better than small zone DLC of the past.

But, that isn't the expectation they outlined. The expectation that they outlined is that it would simply replace the small zone dlc.

So, it is already worth noting that next year, as currently proposed, is a loss of value for Plus in particular. The game as a whole will likely benefit, but the new Plus perks themselves will be lower than previous years.

If we wait until Q4 to raise this concern instead of just going by the current proposal, it will be too late for any adjustments that they could make for 2023. Not to mention the point would probably be lost in the hype surrounding the chapter come January.

Anyway, I'm off to surprise bake cookies for Christmas Eve. Happy Holiday to you and yours, and for everyone else in the thread.

Exactly why it is pure conjecture to say that ESO+ has lost value with these changes.

Also, it is irrelevant to the argument that the quality of the expansion is unknown because it is always unknown until we see it. Questioning the quality of something we haven’t seen yet is just as speculative as the guessing ESO+ has lost value with these changes.

FlopsyPrince

The assumption of no value loss is that we will get the things that are promised (and that those will all be truly worthwhile).

Remember that things have been promised in the past that did not happen, so only time will tell if "this time really is different".

spartaxoxo

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Obviously Q2 chapter will not be part of ESO+ in 2023. That is the norm as the previous year's zone becomes part of ESO+ at that time so it is not worth mentioning and irrelevant.

Arenas sometimes came part of the DLC zone, but not always.

I suggest waiting for more information on what all of this will look at instead of trying to fill in the large blanks on the new design based on antiquated information.

I think I am being misunderstood, as I am not saying you are wrong. I am merely saying we lack considerable information to show if you are right or wrong. That is why all of this is pure speculation, no matter how we try to spin it. Anyone can disagree with this as that is their prerogative, but it is accurate since we are having to use antiquated information from previous content release cadences to try to define what we will get with the new cadence since we have minimal information about what we will get.

It is worth bringing up because thus far a common counterpoint to the idea of "ESO+" losing value in 2023" is that we don't know what Q1, Q2, and Q4 will bring. The counter point about Q2's chapter being of unknown quality is actually something that has been brought repeatedly as a general talking point throughout this thread. It's not just any particular person.

So, I think it is an important reminder that whatever is going on with the chapter next year is irrelevant to the Plus value that year. The chapter is a separate purchase and will not be a part of Plus in 2023. In fact, it is highly likely that Plus, in particular, won't get more than a couple of totally new quests for many, many Plus subscribers. Why? Because many of us purchase the chapter ahead of time. I think this is why it's easy to forget that the chapter is not actually part of Plus next year. Many of us plus subscribers will be buying it anyway. So, I think it's important reminder that next year's chapter is a separate purchase to 2023 Plus.

So, we can comfortably project that Q1 is unchanged (because they said so), Q2 will be lower value (High Isle), and Q3 will not offer Plus benefits (because it's just bug fixes).

The only unknown for Plus is Q4 and it actually has a very high bar to jump over. In order for 2023 to not be a lower value than prior years, the system in Q4 has to exceed the expectations set by the letter. It can't just be an equal replacement to the DLC, it has to be better than small zone DLC of the past.

But, that isn't the expectation they outlined. The expectation that they outlined is that it would simply replace the small zone dlc.

So, it is already worth noting that next year, as currently proposed, is a loss of value for Plus in particular. The game as a whole will likely benefit, but the new Plus perks themselves will be lower than previous years.

If we wait until Q4 to raise this concern instead of just going by the current proposal, it will be too late for any adjustments that they could make for 2023. Not to mention the point would probably be lost in the hype surrounding the chapter come January.

Anyway, I'm off to surprise bake cookies for Christmas Eve. Happy Holiday to you and yours, and for everyone else in the thread.

Exactly why it is pure conjecture to say that ESO+ has lost value with these changes.

Also, it is irrelevant to the argument that the quality of the expansion is unknown because it is always unknown until we see it. Questioning the quality of something we haven’t seen yet is just as speculative as the guessing ESO+ has lost value with these changes.

It is not pure conjecture. In order for it to be pure conjecture, all or most of it would have to be unknown. We know the value of 3 of the 4 quarters. We know in full detail the exact contents of one of the quarters. The largest quarter at that.

Objectively, this is a projection based off a nearly but not entirely complete picture.

Q1 and Q2 were explicitly stated to be essentially unchanged. Q3 is not something they charge for. Setting Q4's value only at what is outlined in the advanced notice to evaluate the information in the advanced notice is entirely reasonable, and not pure conjecture.

FlopsyPrince

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Obviously Q2 chapter will not be part of ESO+ in 2023. That is the norm as the previous year's zone becomes part of ESO+ at that time so it is not worth mentioning and irrelevant.

Arenas sometimes came part of the DLC zone, but not always.

I suggest waiting for more information on what all of this will look at instead of trying to fill in the large blanks on the new design based on antiquated information.

I think I am being misunderstood, as I am not saying you are wrong. I am merely saying we lack considerable information to show if you are right or wrong. That is why all of this is pure speculation, no matter how we try to spin it. Anyone can disagree with this as that is their prerogative, but it is accurate since we are having to use antiquated information from previous content release cadences to try to define what we will get with the new cadence since we have minimal information about what we will get.

It is worth bringing up because thus far a common counterpoint to the idea of "ESO+" losing value in 2023" is that we don't know what Q1, Q2, and Q4 will bring. The counter point about Q2's chapter being of unknown quality is actually something that has been brought repeatedly as a general talking point throughout this thread. It's not just any particular person.

So, I think it is an important reminder that whatever is going on with the chapter next year is irrelevant to the Plus value that year. The chapter is a separate purchase and will not be a part of Plus in 2023. In fact, it is highly likely that Plus, in particular, won't get more than a couple of totally new quests for many, many Plus subscribers. Why? Because many of us purchase the chapter ahead of time. I think this is why it's easy to forget that the chapter is not actually part of Plus next year. Many of us plus subscribers will be buying it anyway. So, I think it's important reminder that next year's chapter is a separate purchase to 2023 Plus.

So, we can comfortably project that Q1 is unchanged (because they said so), Q2 will be lower value (High Isle), and Q3 will not offer Plus benefits (because it's just bug fixes).

The only unknown for Plus is Q4 and it actually has a very high bar to jump over. In order for 2023 to not be a lower value than prior years, the system in Q4 has to exceed the expectations set by the letter. It can't just be an equal replacement to the DLC, it has to be better than small zone DLC of the past.

But, that isn't the expectation they outlined. The expectation that they outlined is that it would simply replace the small zone dlc.

So, it is already worth noting that next year, as currently proposed, is a loss of value for Plus in particular. The game as a whole will likely benefit, but the new Plus perks themselves will be lower than previous years.

If we wait until Q4 to raise this concern instead of just going by the current proposal, it will be too late for any adjustments that they could make for 2023. Not to mention the point would probably be lost in the hype surrounding the chapter come January.

Anyway, I'm off to surprise bake cookies for Christmas Eve. Happy Holiday to you and yours, and for everyone else in the thread.

Exactly why it is pure conjecture to say that ESO+ has lost value with these changes.

Also, it is irrelevant to the argument that the quality of the expansion is unknown because it is always unknown until we see it. Questioning the quality of something we haven’t seen yet is just as speculative as the guessing ESO+ has lost value with these changes.

It hasn't lost value yet, but it will in a year, since it will be short of what it would have had under the previous approach. Is that not clear?

This may not matter to many/most? Probably not, but that is a different point. I don't care myself, but I won't deny the reality of the change. I subscribe to both support the game and to get the extra space. Or I do at least until it expires in the spring. I am annoyed by many things (having things stuck on the PS4 when I am now on the PC and the moderation actions here), so I am not currently renewing. I may anyway since I have wasted money on games before, but I am not as pleased as I was.

spartaxoxo

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

The assumption of no value loss is that we will get the things that are promised (and that those will all be truly worthwhile).

Remember that things have been promised in the past that did not happen, so only time will tell if "this time really is different".

The assumption of no value lost actually assumes that we will get more than was promised. The assumption of value lost only requires exactly what is stated in the letter. That the Q4 system replaces the story zone dlc alone.

Edit:
A lot of people are making the assumption we'll get more than what was promised for Plus because of all the stuff promised for Q2. But the Q2 chapter isn't part of Plus in 2023. It's a separate purchase.

Elsonso

Amottica wrote: »

Also, it is irrelevant to the argument that the quality of the expansion is unknown because it is always unknown until we see it. Questioning the quality of something we haven’t seen yet is just as speculative as the guessing ESO+ has lost value with these changes.

The ZOS quality trajectory is definitely something worthy of questioning.

I have been questioning quality for a lot longer than this thread has been open, and so far... ZOS Is not giving me a lot of warm fuzzies. Mmmm.... I need warm fuzzies. Cold outside tonight. It will take more than a marketing letter from Firor to interrupt that questioning.

You are right in that we have to wait to see what ZOS does... and whether ZOS can turn around quality, and retain ESO Plus value, going forward. I mean... I am here... I obviously want them to... but they have to do their part.

Amottica

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Obviously Q2 chapter will not be part of ESO+ in 2023. That is the norm as the previous year's zone becomes part of ESO+ at that time so it is not worth mentioning and irrelevant.

Arenas sometimes came part of the DLC zone, but not always.

I suggest waiting for more information on what all of this will look at instead of trying to fill in the large blanks on the new design based on antiquated information.

I think I am being misunderstood, as I am not saying you are wrong. I am merely saying we lack considerable information to show if you are right or wrong. That is why all of this is pure speculation, no matter how we try to spin it. Anyone can disagree with this as that is their prerogative, but it is accurate since we are having to use antiquated information from previous content release cadences to try to define what we will get with the new cadence since we have minimal information about what we will get.

It is worth bringing up because thus far a common counterpoint to the idea of "ESO+" losing value in 2023" is that we don't know what Q1, Q2, and Q4 will bring. The counter point about Q2's chapter being of unknown quality is actually something that has been brought repeatedly as a general talking point throughout this thread. It's not just any particular person.

So, I think it is an important reminder that whatever is going on with the chapter next year is irrelevant to the Plus value that year. The chapter is a separate purchase and will not be a part of Plus in 2023. In fact, it is highly likely that Plus, in particular, won't get more than a couple of totally new quests for many, many Plus subscribers. Why? Because many of us purchase the chapter ahead of time. I think this is why it's easy to forget that the chapter is not actually part of Plus next year. Many of us plus subscribers will be buying it anyway. So, I think it's important reminder that next year's chapter is a separate purchase to 2023 Plus.

So, we can comfortably project that Q1 is unchanged (because they said so), Q2 will be lower value (High Isle), and Q3 will not offer Plus benefits (because it's just bug fixes).

The only unknown for Plus is Q4 and it actually has a very high bar to jump over. In order for 2023 to not be a lower value than prior years, the system in Q4 has to exceed the expectations set by the letter. It can't just be an equal replacement to the DLC, it has to be better than small zone DLC of the past.

But, that isn't the expectation they outlined. The expectation that they outlined is that it would simply replace the small zone dlc.

So, it is already worth noting that next year, as currently proposed, is a loss of value for Plus in particular. The game as a whole will likely benefit, but the new Plus perks themselves will be lower than previous years.

If we wait until Q4 to raise this concern instead of just going by the current proposal, it will be too late for any adjustments that they could make for 2023. Not to mention the point would probably be lost in the hype surrounding the chapter come January.

Anyway, I'm off to surprise bake cookies for Christmas Eve. Happy Holiday to you and yours, and for everyone else in the thread.

Exactly why it is pure conjecture to say that ESO+ has lost value with these changes.

Also, it is irrelevant to the argument that the quality of the expansion is unknown because it is always unknown until we see it. Questioning the quality of something we haven’t seen yet is just as speculative as the guessing ESO+ has lost value with these changes.

It is not pure conjecture. In order for it to be pure conjecture, all or most of it would have to be unknown. We know the value of 3 of the 4 quarters. We know in full detail the exact contents of one of the quarters. The largest quarter at that.

Objectively, this is a projection based off a nearly but not entirely complete picture.

Q1 and Q2 were explicitly stated to be essentially unchanged. Q3 is not something they charge for. Setting Q4's value only at what is outlined in the advanced notice to evaluate the information in the advanced notice is entirely reasonable, and not pure conjecture.

I concede. This is correct that it is not pure conjecture. Just mostly conjecture since the undisputed fact is no one here knows the full picture and is making assumptions as though the facts. This is what I have been saying. Unless someone can state factually exactly what the full picture will be based on the limited information we have without trying to base it on meaningless previous DLC releases then what I have stands as 100% accurate.

So see you when we have more information. Enjoy the conversation in the meantime.