ESO+ just lost a significant amount of value

The_Titan_Tim · December 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Q3 won't have any content. It's just going to be bug fixes. There's no way they pay gate fixing bugs.

"Q3: Focus on Quality-of-Life improvements and bug fixes. " Bug fixes and QoL. They can pay gate QoL, but they probably won't. Net loss for 2023 ESO Plus, as it stands today.

I read QOL fixes as stuff like searchable guild traders, which they can't pay gate. It's definitely not going to be content. But I guess something like the armory might be considered a QOL change by them. Even that was free though. Although it was partially pay gated.

Craft bag, double bank space and furnishing slots are all quality of life.

Wow · December 2022

Meanwhile recently Fallout76+ just got a significant value improvement with that Ammo Box thing...

spartaxoxo · December 2022

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Q3 won't have any content. It's just going to be bug fixes. There's no way they pay gate fixing bugs.

"Q3: Focus on Quality-of-Life improvements and bug fixes. " Bug fixes and QoL. They can pay gate QoL, but they probably won't. Net loss for 2023 ESO Plus, as it stands today.

I read QOL fixes as stuff like searchable guild traders, which they can't pay gate. It's definitely not going to be content. But I guess something like the armory might be considered a QOL change by them. Even that was free though. Although it was partially pay gated.

Craft bag, double bank space and furnishing slots are all quality of life.

True. Hopefully they give us something like the furnishing bag to replace the lost value, which is why I asked. Just like they did right before Morrowind launched as the first chapter.

Amottica · December 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

My assumption, which could be entirely wrong, is that they are going to pay-gate the new systems that they release for Q3 and Q4. As this is the first time that they would be monetizing solely a “system” so one could hope that it’s something that brings incredible value to all players, not just something niche like Tales of Tribute.

Q3 won't have any content. It's just going to be bug fixes. There's no way they pay gate fixing bugs. I assumed that Q4 would be pay gated and replace the current Q4 dlc in my calculation I posted earlier. It still represented a lower projected retail value of around 14.99 less content added to the sub.

This is incorrect and @The_Titan_Tim is correct.

Q3 will be QOL and bug fixes. Not just bug fixes. The Studio Director's Letter makes that very clear. While many QOL additions are not placed behind a paywall, numerous ones have been.

Alinhbo_Tyaka · December 2022

Wow wrote: »

Meanwhile recently Fallout76+ just got a significant value improvement with that Ammo Box thing...

Yes they did but they are also adding new content that will require a certain number of 1st subscribers be in the group to get the best drops for the new events. So they are adding rewards gating based on having a subscription which is an awful lot like P2W to me.

FlopsyPrince · December 2022

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Obviously Q2 chapter will not be part of ESO+ in 2023. That is the norm as the previous year's zone becomes part of ESO+ at that time so it is not worth mentioning and irrelevant.

Arenas sometimes came part of the DLC zone, but not always.

I suggest waiting for more information on what all of this will look at instead of trying to fill in the large blanks on the new design based on antiquated information.

I think I am being misunderstood, as I am not saying you are wrong. I am merely saying we lack considerable information to show if you are right or wrong. That is why all of this is pure speculation, no matter how we try to spin it. Anyone can disagree with this as that is their prerogative, but it is accurate since we are having to use antiquated information from previous content release cadences to try to define what we will get with the new cadence since we have minimal information about what we will get.

It is worth bringing up because thus far a common counterpoint to the idea of "ESO+" losing value in 2023" is that we don't know what Q1, Q2, and Q4 will bring. The counter point about Q2's chapter being of unknown quality is actually something that has been brought repeatedly as a general talking point throughout this thread. It's not just any particular person.

So, I think it is an important reminder that whatever is going on with the chapter next year is irrelevant to the Plus value that year. The chapter is a separate purchase and will not be a part of Plus in 2023. In fact, it is highly likely that Plus, in particular, won't get more than a couple of totally new quests for many, many Plus subscribers. Why? Because many of us purchase the chapter ahead of time. I think this is why it's easy to forget that the chapter is not actually part of Plus next year. Many of us plus subscribers will be buying it anyway. So, I think it's important reminder that next year's chapter is a separate purchase to 2023 Plus.

So, we can comfortably project that Q1 is unchanged (because they said so), Q2 will be lower value (High Isle), and Q3 will not offer Plus benefits (because it's just bug fixes).

The only unknown for Plus is Q4 and it actually has a very high bar to jump over. In order for 2023 to not be a lower value than prior years, the system in Q4 has to exceed the expectations set by the letter. It can't just be an equal replacement to the DLC, it has to be better than small zone DLC of the past.

But, that isn't the expectation they outlined. The expectation that they outlined is that it would simply replace the small zone dlc.

So, it is already worth noting that next year, as currently proposed, is a loss of value for Plus in particular. The game as a whole will likely benefit, but the new Plus perks themselves will be lower than previous years.

If we wait until Q4 to raise this concern instead of just going by the current proposal, it will be too late for any adjustments that they could make for 2023. Not to mention the point would probably be lost in the hype surrounding the chapter come January.

Anyway, I'm off to surprise bake cookies for Christmas Eve. Happy Holiday to you and yours, and for everyone else in the thread.

Exactly why it is pure conjecture to say that ESO+ has lost value with these changes.

Also, it is irrelevant to the argument that the quality of the expansion is unknown because it is always unknown until we see it. Questioning the quality of something we haven’t seen yet is just as speculative as the guessing ESO+ has lost value with these changes.

It is not pure conjecture. In order for it to be pure conjecture, all or most of it would have to be unknown. We know the value of 3 of the 4 quarters. We know in full detail the exact contents of one of the quarters. The largest quarter at that.

Objectively, this is a projection based off a nearly but not entirely complete picture.

Q1 and Q2 were explicitly stated to be essentially unchanged. Q3 is not something they charge for. Setting Q4's value only at what is outlined in the advanced notice to evaluate the information in the advanced notice is entirely reasonable, and not pure conjecture.

I concede. This is correct that it is not pure conjecture. Just mostly conjecture since the undisputed fact is no one here knows the full picture and is making assumptions as though the facts. This is what I have been saying. Unless someone can state factually exactly what the full picture will be based on the limited information we have without trying to base it on meaningless previous DLC releases then what I have stands as 100% accurate.

So see you when we have more information. Enjoy the conversation in the meantime.

Isn't Q3 the DLC? You won't get

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

My assumption, which could be entirely wrong, is that they are going to pay-gate the new systems that they release for Q3 and Q4. As this is the first time that they would be monetizing solely a “system” so one could hope that it’s something that brings incredible value to all players, not just something niche like Tales of Tribute.

Q3 won't have any content. It's just going to be bug fixes. There's no way they pay gate fixing bugs. I assumed that Q4 would be pay gated and replace the current Q4 dlc in my calculation I posted earlier. It still represented a lower projected retail value of around 14.99 less content added to the sub.

This is incorrect and @The_Titan_Tim is correct.

Q3 will be QOL and bug fixes. Not just bug fixes. The Studio Director's Letter makes that very clear. While many QOL additions are not placed behind a paywall, numerous ones have been.

Just like they fixed PvP as promised, right?

I will believe all that when I see it, especially when I see that the QoL things are what are really useful, not something like a Card Game.

spartaxoxo · December 2022

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

My assumption, which could be entirely wrong, is that they are going to pay-gate the new systems that they release for Q3 and Q4. As this is the first time that they would be monetizing solely a “system” so one could hope that it’s something that brings incredible value to all players, not just something niche like Tales of Tribute.

Q3 won't have any content. It's just going to be bug fixes. There's no way they pay gate fixing bugs. I assumed that Q4 would be pay gated and replace the current Q4 dlc in my calculation I posted earlier. It still represented a lower projected retail value of around 14.99 less content added to the sub.

This is incorrect and The_Titan_Tim is correct.

Q3 will be QOL and bug fixes. Not just bug fixes. The Studio Director's Letter makes that very clear. While many QOL additions are not placed behind a paywall, numerous ones have been.

Yes. I already stated as much. We already know it won't be content though, so the statement about cut content is still correct. Instead of content they'll be focused on fixes and QOL.

The question about whether or not ESO+ will get added thus is still fair and still stands. Sounds like you've identified the perfect way to add something to ESO+ to make up for the cut content of Q3.

Silaf · December 2022

The truth is we are paying only for the right to be crafters.

Amottica · December 2022

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Obviously Q2 chapter will not be part of ESO+ in 2023. That is the norm as the previous year's zone becomes part of ESO+ at that time so it is not worth mentioning and irrelevant.

Arenas sometimes came part of the DLC zone, but not always.

I suggest waiting for more information on what all of this will look at instead of trying to fill in the large blanks on the new design based on antiquated information.

I think I am being misunderstood, as I am not saying you are wrong. I am merely saying we lack considerable information to show if you are right or wrong. That is why all of this is pure speculation, no matter how we try to spin it. Anyone can disagree with this as that is their prerogative, but it is accurate since we are having to use antiquated information from previous content release cadences to try to define what we will get with the new cadence since we have minimal information about what we will get.

It is worth bringing up because thus far a common counterpoint to the idea of "ESO+" losing value in 2023" is that we don't know what Q1, Q2, and Q4 will bring. The counter point about Q2's chapter being of unknown quality is actually something that has been brought repeatedly as a general talking point throughout this thread. It's not just any particular person.

So, I think it is an important reminder that whatever is going on with the chapter next year is irrelevant to the Plus value that year. The chapter is a separate purchase and will not be a part of Plus in 2023. In fact, it is highly likely that Plus, in particular, won't get more than a couple of totally new quests for many, many Plus subscribers. Why? Because many of us purchase the chapter ahead of time. I think this is why it's easy to forget that the chapter is not actually part of Plus next year. Many of us plus subscribers will be buying it anyway. So, I think it's important reminder that next year's chapter is a separate purchase to 2023 Plus.

So, we can comfortably project that Q1 is unchanged (because they said so), Q2 will be lower value (High Isle), and Q3 will not offer Plus benefits (because it's just bug fixes).

The only unknown for Plus is Q4 and it actually has a very high bar to jump over. In order for 2023 to not be a lower value than prior years, the system in Q4 has to exceed the expectations set by the letter. It can't just be an equal replacement to the DLC, it has to be better than small zone DLC of the past.

But, that isn't the expectation they outlined. The expectation that they outlined is that it would simply replace the small zone dlc.

So, it is already worth noting that next year, as currently proposed, is a loss of value for Plus in particular. The game as a whole will likely benefit, but the new Plus perks themselves will be lower than previous years.

If we wait until Q4 to raise this concern instead of just going by the current proposal, it will be too late for any adjustments that they could make for 2023. Not to mention the point would probably be lost in the hype surrounding the chapter come January.

Anyway, I'm off to surprise bake cookies for Christmas Eve. Happy Holiday to you and yours, and for everyone else in the thread.

Exactly why it is pure conjecture to say that ESO+ has lost value with these changes.

Also, it is irrelevant to the argument that the quality of the expansion is unknown because it is always unknown until we see it. Questioning the quality of something we haven’t seen yet is just as speculative as the guessing ESO+ has lost value with these changes.

It is not pure conjecture. In order for it to be pure conjecture, all or most of it would have to be unknown. We know the value of 3 of the 4 quarters. We know in full detail the exact contents of one of the quarters. The largest quarter at that.

Objectively, this is a projection based off a nearly but not entirely complete picture.

Q1 and Q2 were explicitly stated to be essentially unchanged. Q3 is not something they charge for. Setting Q4's value only at what is outlined in the advanced notice to evaluate the information in the advanced notice is entirely reasonable, and not pure conjecture.

I concede. This is correct that it is not pure conjecture. Just mostly conjecture since the undisputed fact is no one here knows the full picture and is making assumptions as though the facts. This is what I have been saying. Unless someone can state factually exactly what the full picture will be based on the limited information we have without trying to base it on meaningless previous DLC releases then what I have stands as 100% accurate.

So see you when we have more information. Enjoy the conversation in the meantime.

Isn't Q3 the DLC? You won't get

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

My assumption, which could be entirely wrong, is that they are going to pay-gate the new systems that they release for Q3 and Q4. As this is the first time that they would be monetizing solely a “system” so one could hope that it’s something that brings incredible value to all players, not just something niche like Tales of Tribute.

Q3 won't have any content. It's just going to be bug fixes. There's no way they pay gate fixing bugs. I assumed that Q4 would be pay gated and replace the current Q4 dlc in my calculation I posted earlier. It still represented a lower projected retail value of around 14.99 less content added to the sub.

This is incorrect and @The_Titan_Tim is correct.

Q3 will be QOL and bug fixes. Not just bug fixes. The Studio Director's Letter makes that very clear. While many QOL additions are not placed behind a paywall, numerous ones have been.

Just like they fixed PvP as promised, right?

I will believe all that when I see it, especially when I see that the QoL things are what are really useful, not something like a Card Game.

1. If you read the conversation it is clear I am speaking to we do not know the details of the big picture at this time. Sorry I do not repeat everything every time.

2. I was clearly noted that Q3 was not just about bug fixes and that QOL items have been placed behind a paywall. The history of that short conversation was that Zenimax can place some of Q3 behind the paywall of ESO+. PvP is irrelevent to the point I made.

Amottica · December 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

My assumption, which could be entirely wrong, is that they are going to pay-gate the new systems that they release for Q3 and Q4. As this is the first time that they would be monetizing solely a “system” so one could hope that it’s something that brings incredible value to all players, not just something niche like Tales of Tribute.

Q3 won't have any content. It's just going to be bug fixes. There's no way they pay gate fixing bugs. I assumed that Q4 would be pay gated and replace the current Q4 dlc in my calculation I posted earlier. It still represented a lower projected retail value of around 14.99 less content added to the sub.

This is incorrect and The_Titan_Tim is correct.

Q3 will be QOL and bug fixes. Not just bug fixes. The Studio Director's Letter makes that very clear. While many QOL additions are not placed behind a paywall, numerous ones have been.

Yes. I already stated as much. We already know it won't be content though, so the statement about cut content is still correct. Instead of content they'll be focused on fixes and QOL.

The question about whether or not ESO+ will get added thus is still fair and still stands
. Sounds like you've identified the perfect way to add something to ESO+ to make up for the cut content of Q3.

Thx and it shows that there are many details to the big picture unknown to us at this time.

spartaxoxo · December 2022

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

My assumption, which could be entirely wrong, is that they are going to pay-gate the new systems that they release for Q3 and Q4. As this is the first time that they would be monetizing solely a “system” so one could hope that it’s something that brings incredible value to all players, not just something niche like Tales of Tribute.

Q3 won't have any content. It's just going to be bug fixes. There's no way they pay gate fixing bugs. I assumed that Q4 would be pay gated and replace the current Q4 dlc in my calculation I posted earlier. It still represented a lower projected retail value of around 14.99 less content added to the sub.

This is incorrect and The_Titan_Tim is correct.

Q3 will be QOL and bug fixes. Not just bug fixes. The Studio Director's Letter makes that very clear. While many QOL additions are not placed behind a paywall, numerous ones have been.

Yes. I already stated as much. We already know it won't be content though, so the statement about cut content is still correct. Instead of content they'll be focused on fixes and QOL.

The question about whether or not ESO+ will get added thus is still fair and still stands
. Sounds like you've identified the perfect way to add something to ESO+ to make up for the cut content of Q3.

Thx and it shows that there are many details to the big picture unknown to us at this time.

We certainly have enough information to know the current proposal loses value though, and that we should be asking about it now while there's actually time to fix the issue.

Nihilr · December 2022

I'm confident they will make the new system part of the base game. If it is something everyone has to do for performance reasons, everyone will get it.

Now here's where me and my husband are a bit weird: We actually subscribe not for the perks (beyond the craft bag), but because the quality if the chapter for that year's content, new skills, and new systems and bug fixes.

So we subscribe in SUPPORT of the things they are doing right beyond the perks of ESO+. That is how they get monetary feedback that they are making the right choices. Money talks. Not getting money also talks.

Here's why we'd cancel our subs for most of next year (and struggle with organizing inventory OR not play as often, to make a point):

• The new "system" is an equivalent of that card game we got this year. We cancelled this year for 9 months in protest of it. The rest of the content was fine, but I don't remember anyone begging for card games in zone chat or in forums.
• The new system is not a new skill, weapon, or classes *aren't* broken up for more unique character identity.
• They revert the hybridization changes they've made so far. I love being able to use not-staves on my magicka characters, like The Elder Scrolls series always intended.

Unlike many of the vocal people in ESO, I've really enjoyed the changes they made this year in all of their updates, including fixing the broken PvP sets that even effected the difficulty levels in PvE.

Thank you, ZOS. My husband and I have subscribed again, and we're hoping to stay subscribed as you keep making the positive and inclusive changes for improving the game instead of following the vocal minority whales/streamers. Keep up your amazing work! WE LOVE YOUUUUU!

radiostar · December 2022

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Meh, ESO plus is about the craft bag. Haha.

Notice it's the one thing never offered on the Crown Store.

joergino · December 2022

radiostar wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Meh, ESO plus is about the craft bag. Haha.

Notice it's the one thing never offered on the Crown Store.

It can't. We have to buy it for cash, not crowns.

FlopsyPrince · December 2022

Amottica wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Obviously Q2 chapter will not be part of ESO+ in 2023. That is the norm as the previous year's zone becomes part of ESO+ at that time so it is not worth mentioning and irrelevant.

Arenas sometimes came part of the DLC zone, but not always.

I suggest waiting for more information on what all of this will look at instead of trying to fill in the large blanks on the new design based on antiquated information.

I think I am being misunderstood, as I am not saying you are wrong. I am merely saying we lack considerable information to show if you are right or wrong. That is why all of this is pure speculation, no matter how we try to spin it. Anyone can disagree with this as that is their prerogative, but it is accurate since we are having to use antiquated information from previous content release cadences to try to define what we will get with the new cadence since we have minimal information about what we will get.

It is worth bringing up because thus far a common counterpoint to the idea of "ESO+" losing value in 2023" is that we don't know what Q1, Q2, and Q4 will bring. The counter point about Q2's chapter being of unknown quality is actually something that has been brought repeatedly as a general talking point throughout this thread. It's not just any particular person.

So, I think it is an important reminder that whatever is going on with the chapter next year is irrelevant to the Plus value that year. The chapter is a separate purchase and will not be a part of Plus in 2023. In fact, it is highly likely that Plus, in particular, won't get more than a couple of totally new quests for many, many Plus subscribers. Why? Because many of us purchase the chapter ahead of time. I think this is why it's easy to forget that the chapter is not actually part of Plus next year. Many of us plus subscribers will be buying it anyway. So, I think it's important reminder that next year's chapter is a separate purchase to 2023 Plus.

So, we can comfortably project that Q1 is unchanged (because they said so), Q2 will be lower value (High Isle), and Q3 will not offer Plus benefits (because it's just bug fixes).

The only unknown for Plus is Q4 and it actually has a very high bar to jump over. In order for 2023 to not be a lower value than prior years, the system in Q4 has to exceed the expectations set by the letter. It can't just be an equal replacement to the DLC, it has to be better than small zone DLC of the past.

But, that isn't the expectation they outlined. The expectation that they outlined is that it would simply replace the small zone dlc.

So, it is already worth noting that next year, as currently proposed, is a loss of value for Plus in particular. The game as a whole will likely benefit, but the new Plus perks themselves will be lower than previous years.

If we wait until Q4 to raise this concern instead of just going by the current proposal, it will be too late for any adjustments that they could make for 2023. Not to mention the point would probably be lost in the hype surrounding the chapter come January.

Anyway, I'm off to surprise bake cookies for Christmas Eve. Happy Holiday to you and yours, and for everyone else in the thread.

Exactly why it is pure conjecture to say that ESO+ has lost value with these changes.

Also, it is irrelevant to the argument that the quality of the expansion is unknown because it is always unknown until we see it. Questioning the quality of something we haven’t seen yet is just as speculative as the guessing ESO+ has lost value with these changes.

It is not pure conjecture. In order for it to be pure conjecture, all or most of it would have to be unknown. We know the value of 3 of the 4 quarters. We know in full detail the exact contents of one of the quarters. The largest quarter at that.

Objectively, this is a projection based off a nearly but not entirely complete picture.

Q1 and Q2 were explicitly stated to be essentially unchanged. Q3 is not something they charge for. Setting Q4's value only at what is outlined in the advanced notice to evaluate the information in the advanced notice is entirely reasonable, and not pure conjecture.

I concede. This is correct that it is not pure conjecture. Just mostly conjecture since the undisputed fact is no one here knows the full picture and is making assumptions as though the facts. This is what I have been saying. Unless someone can state factually exactly what the full picture will be based on the limited information we have without trying to base it on meaningless previous DLC releases then what I have stands as 100% accurate.

So see you when we have more information. Enjoy the conversation in the meantime.

Isn't Q3 the DLC? You won't get

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

My assumption, which could be entirely wrong, is that they are going to pay-gate the new systems that they release for Q3 and Q4. As this is the first time that they would be monetizing solely a “system” so one could hope that it’s something that brings incredible value to all players, not just something niche like Tales of Tribute.

Q3 won't have any content. It's just going to be bug fixes. There's no way they pay gate fixing bugs. I assumed that Q4 would be pay gated and replace the current Q4 dlc in my calculation I posted earlier. It still represented a lower projected retail value of around 14.99 less content added to the sub.

This is incorrect and @The_Titan_Tim is correct.

Q3 will be QOL and bug fixes. Not just bug fixes. The Studio Director's Letter makes that very clear. While many QOL additions are not placed behind a paywall, numerous ones have been.

Just like they fixed PvP as promised, right?

I will believe all that when I see it, especially when I see that the QoL things are what are really useful, not something like a Card Game.

1. If you read the conversation it is clear I am speaking to we do not know the details of the big picture at this time. Sorry I do not repeat everything every time.

2. I was clearly noted that Q3 was not just about bug fixes and that QOL items have been placed behind a paywall. The history of that short conversation was that Zenimax can place some of Q3 behind the paywall of ESO+. PvP is irrelevent to the point I made.

You do not know what we will be given, unless you have a time machine and can check ahead. Only time will tell on that.

I was just noting a few items that were promised (PvP) and not delivered. Hopefully it really is different this time, but only time will tell on that.

Amottica · December 2022

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Obviously Q2 chapter will not be part of ESO+ in 2023. That is the norm as the previous year's zone becomes part of ESO+ at that time so it is not worth mentioning and irrelevant.

Arenas sometimes came part of the DLC zone, but not always.

I suggest waiting for more information on what all of this will look at instead of trying to fill in the large blanks on the new design based on antiquated information.

I think I am being misunderstood, as I am not saying you are wrong. I am merely saying we lack considerable information to show if you are right or wrong. That is why all of this is pure speculation, no matter how we try to spin it. Anyone can disagree with this as that is their prerogative, but it is accurate since we are having to use antiquated information from previous content release cadences to try to define what we will get with the new cadence since we have minimal information about what we will get.

It is worth bringing up because thus far a common counterpoint to the idea of "ESO+" losing value in 2023" is that we don't know what Q1, Q2, and Q4 will bring. The counter point about Q2's chapter being of unknown quality is actually something that has been brought repeatedly as a general talking point throughout this thread. It's not just any particular person.

So, I think it is an important reminder that whatever is going on with the chapter next year is irrelevant to the Plus value that year. The chapter is a separate purchase and will not be a part of Plus in 2023. In fact, it is highly likely that Plus, in particular, won't get more than a couple of totally new quests for many, many Plus subscribers. Why? Because many of us purchase the chapter ahead of time. I think this is why it's easy to forget that the chapter is not actually part of Plus next year. Many of us plus subscribers will be buying it anyway. So, I think it's important reminder that next year's chapter is a separate purchase to 2023 Plus.

So, we can comfortably project that Q1 is unchanged (because they said so), Q2 will be lower value (High Isle), and Q3 will not offer Plus benefits (because it's just bug fixes).

The only unknown for Plus is Q4 and it actually has a very high bar to jump over. In order for 2023 to not be a lower value than prior years, the system in Q4 has to exceed the expectations set by the letter. It can't just be an equal replacement to the DLC, it has to be better than small zone DLC of the past.

But, that isn't the expectation they outlined. The expectation that they outlined is that it would simply replace the small zone dlc.

So, it is already worth noting that next year, as currently proposed, is a loss of value for Plus in particular. The game as a whole will likely benefit, but the new Plus perks themselves will be lower than previous years.

If we wait until Q4 to raise this concern instead of just going by the current proposal, it will be too late for any adjustments that they could make for 2023. Not to mention the point would probably be lost in the hype surrounding the chapter come January.

Anyway, I'm off to surprise bake cookies for Christmas Eve. Happy Holiday to you and yours, and for everyone else in the thread.

Exactly why it is pure conjecture to say that ESO+ has lost value with these changes.

Also, it is irrelevant to the argument that the quality of the expansion is unknown because it is always unknown until we see it. Questioning the quality of something we haven’t seen yet is just as speculative as the guessing ESO+ has lost value with these changes.

It is not pure conjecture. In order for it to be pure conjecture, all or most of it would have to be unknown. We know the value of 3 of the 4 quarters. We know in full detail the exact contents of one of the quarters. The largest quarter at that.

Objectively, this is a projection based off a nearly but not entirely complete picture.

Q1 and Q2 were explicitly stated to be essentially unchanged. Q3 is not something they charge for. Setting Q4's value only at what is outlined in the advanced notice to evaluate the information in the advanced notice is entirely reasonable, and not pure conjecture.

I concede. This is correct that it is not pure conjecture. Just mostly conjecture since the undisputed fact is no one here knows the full picture and is making assumptions as though the facts. This is what I have been saying. Unless someone can state factually exactly what the full picture will be based on the limited information we have without trying to base it on meaningless previous DLC releases then what I have stands as 100% accurate.

So see you when we have more information. Enjoy the conversation in the meantime.

Isn't Q3 the DLC? You won't get

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

My assumption, which could be entirely wrong, is that they are going to pay-gate the new systems that they release for Q3 and Q4. As this is the first time that they would be monetizing solely a “system” so one could hope that it’s something that brings incredible value to all players, not just something niche like Tales of Tribute.

Q3 won't have any content. It's just going to be bug fixes. There's no way they pay gate fixing bugs. I assumed that Q4 would be pay gated and replace the current Q4 dlc in my calculation I posted earlier. It still represented a lower projected retail value of around 14.99 less content added to the sub.

This is incorrect and @The_Titan_Tim is correct.

Q3 will be QOL and bug fixes. Not just bug fixes. The Studio Director's Letter makes that very clear. While many QOL additions are not placed behind a paywall, numerous ones have been.

Just like they fixed PvP as promised, right?

I will believe all that when I see it, especially when I see that the QoL things are what are really useful, not something like a Card Game.

1. If you read the conversation it is clear I am speaking to we do not know the details of the big picture at this time. Sorry I do not repeat everything every time.

2. I was clearly noted that Q3 was not just about bug fixes and that QOL items have been placed behind a paywall. The history of that short conversation was that Zenimax can place some of Q3 behind the paywall of ESO+. PvP is irrelevent to the point I made.

You do not know what we will be given, unless you have a time machine and can check ahead. Only time will tell on that.

I was just noting a few items that were promised (PvP) and not delivered. Hopefully it really is different this time, but only time will tell on that.

Thanks. I have essentially been saying only time will tell. That we do not have all the data.

aussie500 · December 2022

Well 2 out of 3 of my accounts still have their ESO+, the only reason I get it is the craft bag, and all those crowns, any thing else is just extra.

duagloth · December 2022

Only reason too sub is crafting bag.

Troodon80 · December 2022

duagloth wrote: »

Only reason too sub is crafting bag.

This sort of commentary is pointless. It offers nothing. If the "only reason" to sub was solely for the craft bag, perhaps ZOS should just remove everything else? I can imagine the forum having a collective meltdown at the thought of losing the furniture space and bank space.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

We have the historical data to do such a thing.

Devil's Advocate here: having the historical data also means that every year ESO Plus increases in value as more and more items get tossed into what is available with Plus (for some people who hate having DLC dungeons in their random daily dungeon, this is viewed as a negative).

Back in the old days when ESO Plus took over from the previous subscription and loyalty program, we would have the Imperial City DLC (+dungeons) release. Now we have a selection of 26 DLC dungeons (28 in 2023), the past Q4 DLCs, the previous years' chapters, and the previous DLC like Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild.

The derived value will depend on whether you're looking at new content exclusively, or all content from previous years along with the new content. Since that content is still a part of Plus, the value can generally only increase, even if they only add one thing year-on-year (e.g. the chapter from the previous year now available as DLC) and stop releasing any additional content.

spartaxoxo · December 2022

Troodon80 wrote: »

Devil's Advocate here: having the historical data also means that every year ESO Plus increases in value as more and more items get tossed into what is available with Plus (for some people who hate having DLC dungeons in their random daily dungeon, this is viewed as a negative).

Yes. But a reduction in benefits is still a reduction in value of the sub.

The total projected value of the sub is the value of all the new things it will add + the old stuff it offers + the monetary value of all perks that can be calculated (in this case, the crowns).

The new stuff being reduced therefore also decreases the total value of the sub from what it should have been had the benefits not been reduced.

FlopsyPrince · December 2022

Troodon80 wrote: »

duagloth wrote: »

Only reason too sub is crafting bag.

This sort of commentary is pointless. It offers nothing. If the "only reason" to sub was solely for the craft bag, perhaps ZOS should just remove everything else? I can imagine the forum having a collective meltdown at the thought of losing the furniture space and bank space.

It is very useful. Noting that shows that any "loss of value" is not as severe as some claim, even if it may still have some technically true aspects.

I would say that and having access to the ENTIRE game is the only reason I have ESO+ now, counting the storage slot upgrades in that. (Housing is not as vital, though the limits there that I have hit get really annoying even with ESO+!)

AzuraFan · December 2022

Troodon80 wrote: »

duagloth wrote: »

Only reason too sub is crafting bag.

This sort of commentary is pointless.

Well, it does send the message to ZOS that they can continue to remove perks from ESO+ and charge the same as long as they keep the craft bag. Not the brightest message to send, IMO, but it is what it is.

spartaxoxo · December 2022

AzuraFan wrote: »

Troodon80 wrote: »

duagloth wrote: »

Only reason too sub is crafting bag.

This sort of commentary is pointless.

Well, it does send the message to ZOS that they can continue to remove perks from ESO+ and charge the same as long as they keep the craft bag. Not the brightest message to send, IMO, but it is what it is.

Yup. That's the message it sends. It basically says "don't worry about giving the customers a nice experience, there's only one thing they need. You can cut the rest."

That double bag space and furniture slots aren't a big deal to cut, save the server space, plus doesn't need it.

Those crowns? Cut those too. People can just buy crown packs if they need crowns. It doesn't matter, ESO+ is just the craft bag.

Cut the access to all the old dlc. Honestly, they just clog up the normal dungeons finder. Remove DLC access entirely. It doesn't matter ESO+ is just the craft bag.

In case it's not obvious, those last 3 points are a /s. I wouldn't send that message about any of the benefits. Because all of the benefits are important imo.

The only reason we have that craft bag is because they knew that changing one DLC over to a chapter was reducing the amount of "new to everyone" dlc being offered each year by one. It's good that the value of sub was taken into account when changing up content cadence, because we got a massively useful feature. What massively useful feature are we not going to get because the message these days is "nothing but the craft bag matters?"

Mesite · December 2022

ESO+ may evolve over time.

I decided not to buy any extra DLC for my original account because I knew that eventually Morrowind (costing a couple of thousand crowns to buy at the time) would become part of the base game. I was correct and got it for free.

2023 promises a new idea - which is possibly something lots of people who play ESO want. I think that all the people with only the base game all want more of the DLCs and chapters for free as part of the base game.

What would ESO+ subscribers think if/when some other DLCs become part of the base game?

(Edited to reflect the uncertainties of 2023)

FlopsyPrince · December 2022

I doubt I would play without ESO+ and the extra space (plus craft bag) it provides. Things would simply be too tight otherwise. So not having a future DLC is not a major factor. I am not sure I remembered to grab the last 2 "free" DLCs on the PS4/5, so I may be missing them there now, but then I haven't played much on it lately so it is not a huge loss.

Beekeeper1 · December 2022

Wow will certainly get body slammed for this....
The naivete of many of the discussions is beyond comprehension. (Innocence or unsophistication) False equivalencies are constantly used. Critical thinking is left in the closet.

Arguments are either emotional or factual based. If emotional for many reasons, ie. played this game for X years don't tell me now I was wrong, I "love" eso etc. etc. If emotionally based, then regardless of the facts there will be little to no swaying of the positions stated. Just back and forth, this for that, an endless circle. Only time will fix this, when whatever they are planning to happen in Q4 happens.

Factual arguments can move positions for those who are basing their positions on facts. Some of the value propositions were very good. Stating what was historically and what will be as announced is great method but again only for those inclined to be factual.

Some facts then: 1) Last two (2) chapter releases have been disasters causing mass exodus of players. Why, imo not because one and done story lines, or having too much content causing the player base to complain about where to start or what to do. And NOW they state they are making changes after listening to the community. OH so much BS. They didn't listen when the community (player feedback) told them that ToT wasn't gonna cut it or nerfing dps was not good for the game. Which along with massive bugs were the downside of the last two releases. Now suddenly based on (player feedback) they see a need to change one and done.

This game to the players is a beloved game with rich content, encyclopedias of lore and eye candy be it the new cities, the graphical environment and the gameplay mechanics.

The game to business folks is just one thing, how much revenue can be generated for how little investment. The resource pool allocated to it has both shrunk (less people) and become less experienced. Q1 and Q2 were in the can so to speak so they couldn't be changed but Q3 and later could. Obviously, their projected revenue didn't line up with internal expectations (remember new owners) so what do we do..... If you fail to increase market share, and capture new customers then increasing resource investment is unlikely it is rather how to make more revenue with less investment.

For all you happily applauding the quality over quantity change I am speechless. You all do realize that they should be synonymous. They are not an either-or thing. When they state they are going for bug fixes and quality they are telling you they don't have resources allocated to the game sufficiently. Goes along with the millions of lines of code they advertised with inexperienced developers with that code doing stuff. QOL changes, those are being created to keep up with or rather to try and catch up with the competition. Should also have been being developed and released systematically all along. These are symptoms of a history of revenue over expenses product short term approach.

So much competition today for ESO how and what they do about it is what these changes are about.

It's not a happy thing to move your resources to stop the presses and do something else. They can either continue to decline or do something for product extension. Thus the new system. I hope they knock it outta the park with the new system but based on experience over the years with them and their obvious need to increase revenue......don't hold your breath. Remember they are also launching new games which will impact market share.

So take the Studio Director's Letter for what it really is, happy talk. Justifications for the upcoming changes, which are intended to sound great and which were drafted with painstaking revisions to try and hold the player base. So much of that letter is about keeping up with the competition.

Sailor_Palutena · December 2022

I just need an option to turn off DLC Dungeons. Sometimes I like to just run Fungal Grotto or Banished Cells.

When I see March of Sacrifices I sigh hard.

Elsonso · December 2022

Beekeeper1 wrote: »

So take the Studio Director's Letter for what it really is, happy talk. Justifications for the upcoming changes, which are intended to sound great and which were drafted with painstaking revisions to try and hold the player base. So much of that letter is about keeping up with the competition.

It is a marketing letter. What is interesting, is it sounds like it was written a couple weeks before it was published. Just the way the wording feels. Makes me wonder how many revisions it went through before it arrived.

FlopsyPrince · December 2022

Elsonso wrote: »

Beekeeper1 wrote: »

So take the Studio Director's Letter for what it really is, happy talk. Justifications for the upcoming changes, which are intended to sound great and which were drafted with painstaking revisions to try and hold the player base. So much of that letter is about keeping up with the competition.

It is a marketing letter. What is interesting, is it sounds like it was written a couple weeks before it was published. Just the way the wording feels. Makes me wonder how many revisions it went through before it arrived.

Of course it is a marketing letter. That is how that role works.

Hopefully it is more tied to reality (in parts at least) than past such letters.

loosej · December 2022

For me the value can only go up, but that's because I think the current business model of eso+ is just plain wrong.

There's a reason well-functioning mmo's are only available for people paying the subscription fee, and their players understand all too well why it's needed. It's also much more transparent what you're paying for. You buy the base game and the expansions once because the company needs x amount of copies sold to repay that development cost. And you pay the subscription fee to receive a continuous service.

I only started playing about a year ago or so, but I am aware that this is how eso worked initially. I also get why there were changes needed to this model. True mmo players who are willing to pay a subscription fee were already playing their game of choice, so it could only attract a small subset of this group. On the other hand it was obvious that there were plenty of elder scrolls offline fans who might have an interest in the rpg part of the game, but not the mmo part. So free-to-play was the only way out.

And I have to admit, I initially belonged to the second group. I've played WoW in the past (BC->Cata) but no other mmo since, and the only reason I gave the game a try in the first place was that it's available as free-to-play. Like many players I was looking for the Elder Scrolls 5.5 to fill the gap between Skyrim and whatever comes next. And for a long time I played it like any other single player rpg, barely touching dungeons or PvP.

That changed last summer during the Mayhem event, when I gave Cyrodiil a try and saw the epic battles that were going on there. Sure there was lag and disconnects, but those sieges were massive so I understood how that could be heavy on the servers. I quickly realized I'd continue playing Cyrodiil after the event, and it was at this point that I started paying for eso+. Not because of all the perks, but because I was now playing an mmo and I'm more than happy to pay a subscription fee if I make use of the service it provides. But oh my snip* what a disappointment the following months have been.

What I get out of eso+ so far is:

The craft bag, which in my opinion should be part of the base game, since it has been a one-time development cost with almost no running costs compared to the rest of the game.
Double bank space, again something with limited added running costs.
Rented access to dlc zones, which should be included when purchasing the associated chapter. This has been another one-time development cost for the company, so it should be a one-time cost for the customer as well.
Crowns (which is a can of worms I won't touch in this post).

What I don't get is a stable, and therefore enjoyable PvP experience, and the same can be said for endgame PvE players. Couldn't this have been simpler? Give free-to-play gamers access to the single player rpg part of the game, the chapters they bought with the storylines and the quests. And give eso+ players access to the multiplayer part on top of that, the dungeons/arenas/trials/PvP. That way people could rightfully drop the subscription if they're not satisfied with the service. But lots of people, myself included, don't because inventory management would be a nightmare if we did. I know such a change is not going to happen, because the bottom line is all that counts, but at least it would be honest business.

So, if all the promises about improvements are kept, eso+ would go up in value for me, because right now it's basically a scam.

* speculative deity