Assassin's Will is balanced

Vaqual

No not balanced

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Assassin’s Will is fine. NB does need its dmg modifiers tuned down though. Class is basically loaded with so many stat modifiers that it can kill you with just Concealed Weapon spam.

Saying AW is fine but the modifiers need adjusting is the wrong way to look at it. If we're only talking PvP then, sure, I suppose they are equally valid points of view.

But if you consider PvE in your overall view of the class then you realize that PvPblade needs to be weakened in a way that doesn't lower its overall damage.

AW needs to be nerfed so that other parts of its kit can be buffed. A net positive needs to be achieved while lessening the burst. Adjusting the modifiers would just exacerbate the PvE problem and create a deeper hole to climb out of. Adjusting AW would instantly fix PvPblade and leave us at a decent starting place for helping with PvE.

I would rather do the opposite which is what class identity is all about. Nerfing AW will mean NB is no longer a burst class and you have a nb wearing the same proc sets

People who seem to care most about NB class identity on these forums seem to be sorc mains. Why would they sell us freedom with build design if in the end only one "class defining" playstyle dictates class balance. Why does NB have to be the burst class in 2023? Why would it matter? What is everyone elses class identity? Templar, "the heal & support class" as opposed to Warden, "the support & heal class". And did DKs get the memo, to pick one thing, not all of them?

People clearly like options. They like to customize their character in terms of playstyle and look. Classes should be contributing to the palette of options, not restrict it. Classes offer strengths/weaknesses, which can be complemented, balanced out and taken advantage off by building in different ways. You want unique classes? Than you should ask for diversified mechanics in class kits, not to arbitrarily assign what role a class should fill in game where the premise literally is that any class can do any role.
I really disagree with your mindset.

OBJnoob

No not balanced

I think people expect too much from class identity. NBs have a spell that makes them go invisible. What more do you need to be unique? And sorcs, since they got brought up, I mean they look like lightning and they streak around. They have pets. They have shields. Sorc identity has never been threatened. Okay so people can use potions to go invisible... Not the same. People can use mist form to "streak around," but there's still so much more keeping them unique. Arcanist have shields... But anybody can tell an Arcanist from a sorc from miles away.

I propose that AW has always been out of balance. And while it may've been "acceptable" on a class that was notoriously squishy it wasn't necessarily right to 1-shot people. It wasn't right when snipe desynched, it wasn't right with caluurions, and it isn't right now. And it was never right for NBs to be made of paper either.

People have said AW is okay because it can be dodged sort've easily. They've said it's okay because NB has no delayed burst. But these same people need to ask themselves now... Now that NBs have good self healing... What is it that you find true? Do you stalemate against every talented NB and so you find the heal to be a problem? Or does their increased survivability enable them to stick around longer, try their AW more times, and thus actually kill even "competent" players? Because if the latter is more true then everybody needs to stop blaming the heal. Especially if you are a person -cough- who badly wants sorc to have a burst heal.

Don't get me wrong sorc DOES need a burst heal. And the NB heal may be too strong. But so just adjust it a little. Don't make it BAD as a way to justify their ability to kill. If their ability to kill is too great then that right there is where you need to be looking. Occam's Razor, and all that.

baselesschart

Yes balanced

OBJnoob wrote: »

People have said AW is okay because it can be dodged sort've easily. They've said it's okay because NB has no delayed burst. But these same people need to ask themselves now... Now that NBs have good self healing... What is it that you find true? Do you stalemate against every talented NB and so you find the heal to be a problem? Or does their increased survivability enable them to stick around longer, try their AW more times, and thus actually kill even "competent" players? Because if the latter is more true then everybody needs to stop blaming the heal. Especially if you are a person -cough- who badly wants sorc to have a burst heal.

I find myself stalemating majority of people that are of equal skill to me regardless of class. I do agree that NB burst heal is a bit too strong and I would advocate for a nerf to healthy offering. But that doesn't mean NB can easily survive all encounters. NB's weakness is and always has been DoT pressure, and with all the master DW builds running around, it can be quite easy to kill a NB, especially if you outnumber one.

I'm not sure why you say dodged "sort've" easily. In a perfectly working no lag game environment, you can 100% dodge it all the time with ease. To hit the competent players with AW, you have to utilize the off balance stun, and even then it doesn't guarantee that its going to hit hard, because it doesn't always.

DrNukenstein

Why is it a problem for the stealth class to beat "competent" players with their particular trick which is different but no more potent than the tricks of other classes?

If you get caught by a fissure dawnbreaker combo, you're gonna have a bad time and you can't literally dodge that one.

A sorc can line up 3 gcd's on you, but it's tricky for it to all hit and is telegraphed. They can roll or streak and do it again immediately after wiffing.

If a dk can get close, they have more tools to make the fight one sided than any other class

Necros have it bad, but colossus bombs are still filthy and they can hit a bunch of people at the same time.

Comet>jav>beam

Then anyone can put on masters dw, vat staff, and maarselok and become a god.

In the context of the above, a single target combo with cast times and audio queues that requires a specific ultimate really isn't that much of an outlier. It's only a "problem" if and when it happens to you.

PhoenixGrey

Yes balanced

OBJnoob wrote: »

I think people expect too much from class identity. NBs have a spell that makes them go invisible. What more do you need to be unique? And sorcs, since they got brought up, I mean they look like lightning and they streak around. They have pets. They have shields. Sorc identity has never been threatened. Okay so people can use potions to go invisible... Not the same. People can use mist form to "streak around," but there's still so much more keeping them unique. Arcanist have shields... But anybody can tell an Arcanist from a sorc from miles away.

I propose that AW has always been out of balance. And while it may've been "acceptable" on a class that was notoriously squishy it wasn't necessarily right to 1-shot people. It wasn't right when snipe desynched, it wasn't right with caluurions, and it isn't right now. And it was never right for NBs to be made of paper either.

People have said AW is okay because it can be dodged sort've easily. They've said it's okay because NB has no delayed burst. But these same people need to ask themselves now... Now that NBs have good self healing... What is it that you find true? Do you stalemate against every talented NB and so you find the heal to be a problem? Or does their increased survivability enable them to stick around longer, try their AW more times, and thus actually kill even "competent" players? Because if the latter is more true then everybody needs to stop blaming the heal. Especially if you are a person -cough- who badly wants sorc to have a burst heal.

Don't get me wrong sorc DOES need a burst heal. And the NB heal may be too strong. But so just adjust it a little. Don't make it BAD as a way to justify their ability to kill. If their ability to kill is too great then that right there is where you need to be looking. Occam's Razor, and all that.

By identity I mean a unique skill which no other class can do better. I m not talking about shiny lightning animations lol

If sorc had an identity it wouldn’t be forced to use 3 proc sets to compete

PhoenixGrey

Yes balanced

Vaqual wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Assassin’s Will is fine. NB does need its dmg modifiers tuned down though. Class is basically loaded with so many stat modifiers that it can kill you with just Concealed Weapon spam.

Saying AW is fine but the modifiers need adjusting is the wrong way to look at it. If we're only talking PvP then, sure, I suppose they are equally valid points of view.

But if you consider PvE in your overall view of the class then you realize that PvPblade needs to be weakened in a way that doesn't lower its overall damage.

AW needs to be nerfed so that other parts of its kit can be buffed. A net positive needs to be achieved while lessening the burst. Adjusting the modifiers would just exacerbate the PvE problem and create a deeper hole to climb out of. Adjusting AW would instantly fix PvPblade and leave us at a decent starting place for helping with PvE.

I would rather do the opposite which is what class identity is all about. Nerfing AW will mean NB is no longer a burst class and you have a nb wearing the same proc sets

People who seem to care most about NB class identity on these forums seem to be sorc mains. Why would they sell us freedom with build design if in the end only one "class defining" playstyle dictates class balance. Why does NB have to be the burst class in 2023? Why would it matter? What is everyone elses class identity? Templar, "the heal & support class" as opposed to Warden, "the support & heal class". And did DKs get the memo, to pick one thing, not all of them?

People clearly like options. They like to customize their character in terms of playstyle and look. Classes should be contributing to the palette of options, not restrict it. Classes offer strengths/weaknesses, which can be complemented, balanced out and taken advantage off by building in different ways. You want unique classes? Than you should ask for diversified mechanics in class kits, not to arbitrarily assign what role a class should fill in game where the premise literally is that any class can do any role.
I really disagree with your mindset.

So you would prefer wearing 3 proc sets like the rest of us then ?

No one likes to play average classes. The moment AW is nerfed you will have a bunch of nb mains hopping on the dk wagon

Vaqual

No not balanced

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Assassin’s Will is fine. NB does need its dmg modifiers tuned down though. Class is basically loaded with so many stat modifiers that it can kill you with just Concealed Weapon spam.

Saying AW is fine but the modifiers need adjusting is the wrong way to look at it. If we're only talking PvP then, sure, I suppose they are equally valid points of view.

But if you consider PvE in your overall view of the class then you realize that PvPblade needs to be weakened in a way that doesn't lower its overall damage.

AW needs to be nerfed so that other parts of its kit can be buffed. A net positive needs to be achieved while lessening the burst. Adjusting the modifiers would just exacerbate the PvE problem and create a deeper hole to climb out of. Adjusting AW would instantly fix PvPblade and leave us at a decent starting place for helping with PvE.

I would rather do the opposite which is what class identity is all about. Nerfing AW will mean NB is no longer a burst class and you have a nb wearing the same proc sets

People who seem to care most about NB class identity on these forums seem to be sorc mains. Why would they sell us freedom with build design if in the end only one "class defining" playstyle dictates class balance. Why does NB have to be the burst class in 2023? Why would it matter? What is everyone elses class identity? Templar, "the heal & support class" as opposed to Warden, "the support & heal class". And did DKs get the memo, to pick one thing, not all of them?

People clearly like options. They like to customize their character in terms of playstyle and look. Classes should be contributing to the palette of options, not restrict it. Classes offer strengths/weaknesses, which can be complemented, balanced out and taken advantage off by building in different ways. You want unique classes? Than you should ask for diversified mechanics in class kits, not to arbitrarily assign what role a class should fill in game where the premise literally is that any class can do any role.
I really disagree with your mindset.

So you would prefer wearing 3 proc sets like the rest of us then ?

No one likes to play average classes. The moment AW is nerfed you will have a bunch of nb mains hopping on the dk wagon

So what. The meta chasers can play what ever they want, who cares. I write these things because I think it will make my class/the game more enjoyable to play, not to win against some kids that abuse poorly balanced systems.

And don't get me wrong, I like being competitive. Just not at all cost.

OBJnoob

No not balanced

baselesschart wrote: »

I'm not sure why you say dodged "sort've" easily. In a perfectly working no lag game environment, you can 100% dodge it all the time with ease. To hit the competent players with AW, you have to utilize the off balance stun, and even then it doesn't guarantee that its going to hit hard, because it doesn't always.

In a perfectly working, lag free, 1v1 scenario it can be dodged all the time. Unless of course they use the off balance stun... Then a competent player may still get hit by it.

Yeeeeaa... I think you know very well why I said "sort've." In fact you explained it perfectly.

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Why is it a problem for the stealth class to beat "competent" players with their particular trick which is different but no more potent than the tricks of other classes?

If you get caught by a fissure dawnbreaker combo, you're gonna have a bad time and you can't literally dodge that one.

A sorc can line up 3 gcd's on you, but it's tricky for it to all hit and is telegraphed. They can roll or streak and do it again immediately after wiffing.

If a dk can get close, they have more tools to make the fight one sided than any other class

Necros have it bad, but colossus bombs are still filthy and they can hit a bunch of people at the same time.

Comet>jav>beam

Then anyone can put on masters dw, vat staff, and maarselok and become a god.

In the context of the above, a single target combo with cast times and audio queues that requires a specific ultimate really isn't that much of an outlier. It's only a "problem" if and when it happens to you.

I really don't know why you just laid out everybody's burst combos to compare. I didn't know the fact that NB was overpowered was up for debate I just thought we were discussing HOW they need to be nerfed. If you think NBs are tied with everybody else then you're lost.

Or maybe you're like the other guy... You like to pretend we play in a functional lag free environment.

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

By identity I mean a unique skill which no other class can do better. I m not talking about shiny lightning animations lol

If sorc had an identity it wouldn’t be forced to use 3 proc sets to compete

See that's just silly. Necros are worse than sorcs but they clearly have an identity. Having an identity and being good are totally different things.

Sorcs heal through offense-- either by critting or by directly applied dark magic damage. That's one thing that's unique.

They have a unique amount of delayed and/or stackable damage in their kit with curse, crystal, endless, and overload.

Their shiny lightning form is unique looking, which you may scoff at and consider only eye-candy, but actually it's a pretty good skill and semi-unique. Everybody finds a way to get major resolve-- yes-- but not everyone's way also makes them move faster and applies damage. The only example I can think of that does all 3 of those same things belongs to... You guessed it, NB LOL.

Sorcs have pets. Other people have pets too, sorta, but sorc pets are unique. And how much you may not like them has zero influence on that fact.

Okay I'm done listing ways in which sorcs have an identity. I've more than made my point, but I could go on trust me. I just don't see why I'm trying to explain why NBs are OP to the person who, for like a year, showed up in every topic just to hate on the power of NB, the constant buffs they get, and the devs who made it so because according to you they play NB and are intentionally unfair.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

Urzigurumash

Yes balanced

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Assassin’s Will is fine. NB does need its dmg modifiers tuned down though. Class is basically loaded with so many stat modifiers that it can kill you with just Concealed Weapon spam.

Saying AW is fine but the modifiers need adjusting is the wrong way to look at it. If we're only talking PvP then, sure, I suppose they are equally valid points of view.

But if you consider PvE in your overall view of the class then you realize that PvPblade needs to be weakened in a way that doesn't lower its overall damage.

AW needs to be nerfed so that other parts of its kit can be buffed. A net positive needs to be achieved while lessening the burst. Adjusting the modifiers would just exacerbate the PvE problem and create a deeper hole to climb out of. Adjusting AW would instantly fix PvPblade and leave us at a decent starting place for helping with PvE.

I would rather do the opposite which is what class identity is all about. Nerfing AW will mean NB is no longer a burst class and you have a nb wearing the same proc sets

People who seem to care most about NB class identity on these forums seem to be sorc mains. Why would they sell us freedom with build design if in the end only one "class defining" playstyle dictates class balance. Why does NB have to be the burst class in 2023? Why would it matter? What is everyone elses class identity? Templar, "the heal & support class" as opposed to Warden, "the support & heal class". And did DKs get the memo, to pick one thing, not all of them?

People clearly like options. They like to customize their character in terms of playstyle and look. Classes should be contributing to the palette of options, not restrict it. Classes offer strengths/weaknesses, which can be complemented, balanced out and taken advantage off by building in different ways. You want unique classes? Than you should ask for diversified mechanics in class kits, not to arbitrarily assign what role a class should fill in game where the premise literally is that any class can do any role.
I really disagree with your mindset.

So you would prefer wearing 3 proc sets like the rest of us then ?

No one likes to play average classes. The moment AW is nerfed you will have a bunch of nb mains hopping on the dk wagon

This is definitely true. It's crucial that NB and Warden keep their current power level so that everybody that wants to play a powerful class isn't on DK. (Jury still out on Arcanist)

PhoenixGrey

Yes balanced

OBJnoob wrote: »

Okay I'm done listing ways in which sorcs have an identity. I've more than made my point, but I could go on trust me. I just don't see why I'm trying to explain why NBs are OP to the person who, for like a year, showed up in every topic just to hate on the power of NB, the constant buffs they get, and the devs who made it so because according to you they play NB and are intentionally unfair.

[snip]

[snip].

Yeah every other OP skill is a shining light of hope in my eyes because they pale in comparision to proc sets.

Players use skills because they are OP. No one likes using average skills. Not sure why ppl don’t have this basic understanding that it is the exact reason why we have a proc set meta. And now some righteous ppl come along and try to nerf the last remaining classes which don’t use procs. All I m doing is calling out their [snip].

If you are forced to use 3 proc sets on our build you class has clearly lost your class identity

[edited for bashing & to remove quote]

SandandStars

No not balanced

NB & DKs overall kits are significantly out of alignment with other classes (pvp). To me it feels like the game is on a serious decline, and I do not expect either of these classes to be balanced with other classes at any point. Whether that means buffing other classes to make them more competitive, or adjusting NB & DK so that PVP combat can be more diverse and interesting. I think this game is cooked.

Vaqual

No not balanced

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

All I m doing is calling out their [snip].

Glad to hear how much you think about other peoples suggestions. This is what you get out of all this text?

The idea is to move power away from AW, as a large proportion of players consider it overpowered (not repeating all the arguments), but also to re-allocate part of the subtracted power to other parts of the class kit. This should in turn preserve over all power levels for PvP (where burst has a high value), but allows for more room to buff NB in PvE (where burst only has situational value).

[snip]

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

And now some righteous ppl come along and try to nerf the last remaining classes which don’t use procs.

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

OBJnoob

No not balanced

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Okay I'm done listing ways in which sorcs have an identity. I've more than made my point, but I could go on trust me. I just don't see why I'm trying to explain why NBs are OP to the person who, for like a year, showed up in every topic just to hate on the power of NB, the constant buffs they get, and the devs who made it so because according to you they play NB and are intentionally unfair.

[snip]

[snip]

Yeah every other OP skill is a shining light of hope in my eyes because they pale in comparision to proc sets.

Players use skills because they are OP. No one likes using average skills. Not sure why ppl don’t have this basic understanding that it is the exact reason why we have a proc set meta. And now some righteous ppl come along and try to nerf the last remaining classes which don’t use procs. All I m doing is calling out their [snip].

If you are forced to use 3 proc sets on our build you class has clearly lost your class identity

Average is just another way to say balanced, lol. If you aren't comfortable using average skills then why should you have a say in balance conversations?

All proc sets aren't bad. I share your dislike for them, but the vast majority of them scale off your damage and most of them are therefore balanced. The ones that don't are a way to have damage while remaining tanky, and as such create enough pressure where the rest of a class kit can actually finish a decent player. Because pressure is a thing a lot of classes lack right now.

The classes that don't need to use those proc sets are NB and DK. DK has plenty of pressure in class skills and also an ability to ignore penetration-- making it bursty enough to kill as well. NB is unique in that it doesn't have pressure... It just has one ability that might hit for a stupid high amount. It's spammable and it's ultimate are also required, but not so much for pressure per se but more for just supercharging that one skill.

If AW were to be nerfed and that power were put into their DoTs, as I'm suggesting (to help PvE,) then that would make them stop hitting non-tanky-brawlers for 20k but they would continue to have the ability to kill because they now have pressure which is why everybody else uses the OP proc sets in the first place. Then, of course, you nerf the offending proc sets into line with everyone else's level of pressure, nerf Corrosive, nerf Undeath, and then watch as people build less tanky and thus for myriad reasons now have the ability to kill. With or without proc sets.

That's it. That's the circumspect fix. It's the answer. And of course you can say things like buff Necro, fix werewolf, whatever. But that is the answer to THIS problem.

A similar result could be achieved by leaving AW the same and reducing the % modifiers, but now the DoTs just need to be buffed even more so what's the point? Right now the way they stack their modifiers up is the skill involved in the class so leave it. It's their crux. It's their corpse mechanic... Their molten whip mini-game.

It isn't too much to ask for a skill to not hit for 20k. Weaving a heavy attack on an off balance target isn't exactly hard. I don't see why you hold it's gameplay in such high regard.

[edited to remove quote]

PhoenixGrey

Yes balanced

OBJnoob wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Okay I'm done listing ways in which sorcs have an identity. I've more than made my point, but I could go on trust me. I just don't see why I'm trying to explain why NBs are OP to the person who, for like a year, showed up in every topic just to hate on the power of NB, the constant buffs they get, and the devs who made it so because according to you they play NB and are intentionally unfair.

[snip]

[snip]

Yeah every other OP skill is a shining light of hope in my eyes because they pale in comparision to proc sets.

Players use skills because they are OP. No one likes using average skills. Not sure why ppl don’t have this basic understanding that it is the exact reason why we have a proc set meta. And now some righteous ppl come along and try to nerf the last remaining classes which don’t use procs. All I m doing is calling out their [snip].

If you are forced to use 3 proc sets on our build you class has clearly lost your class identity

Average is just another way to say balanced, lol. If you aren't comfortable using average skills then why should you have a say in balance conversations?

All proc sets aren't bad. I share your dislike for them, but the vast majority of them scale off your damage and most of them are therefore balanced. The ones that don't are a way to have damage while remaining tanky, and as such create enough pressure where the rest of a class kit can actually finish a decent player. Because pressure is a thing a lot of classes lack right now.

The classes that don't need to use those proc sets are NB and DK. DK has plenty of pressure in class skills and also an ability to ignore penetration-- making it bursty enough to kill as well. NB is unique in that it doesn't have pressure... It just has one ability that might hit for a stupid high amount. It's spammable and it's ultimate are also required, but not so much for pressure per se but more for just supercharging that one skill.

If AW were to be nerfed and that power were put into their DoTs, as I'm suggesting (to help PvE,) then that would make them stop hitting non-tanky-brawlers for 20k but they would continue to have the ability to kill because they now have pressure which is why everybody else uses the OP proc sets in the first place. Then, of course, you nerf the offending proc sets into line with everyone else's level of pressure, nerf Corrosive, nerf Undeath, and then watch as people build less tanky and thus for myriad reasons now have the ability to kill. With or without proc sets.

That's it. That's the circumspect fix. It's the answer. And of course you can say things like buff Necro, fix werewolf, whatever. But that is the answer to THIS problem.

A similar result could be achieved by leaving AW the same and reducing the % modifiers, but now the DoTs just need to be buffed even more so what's the point? Right now the way they stack their modifiers up is the skill involved in the class so leave it. It's their crux. It's their corpse mechanic... Their molten whip mini-game.

It isn't too much to ask for a skill to not hit for 20k. Weaving a heavy attack on an off balance target isn't exactly hard. I don't see why you hold it's gameplay in such high regard.

Average = boring in a video game lol.

Proc sets play the game for you.

And nb isn’t supposed to be a pressure class.

Imagine a nb with 3 proc sets and getting bored coz you are not even playing the game now .

[edited to remove quote]

Urzigurumash

Yes balanced

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Okay I'm done listing ways in which sorcs have an identity. I've more than made my point, but I could go on trust me. I just don't see why I'm trying to explain why NBs are OP to the person who, for like a year, showed up in every topic just to hate on the power of NB, the constant buffs they get, and the devs who made it so because according to you they play NB and are intentionally unfair.

[snip]

[snip]

Yeah every other OP skill is a shining light of hope in my eyes because they pale in comparision to proc sets.

Players use skills because they are OP. No one likes using average skills. Not sure why ppl don’t have this basic understanding that it is the exact reason why we have a proc set meta. And now some righteous ppl come along and try to nerf the last remaining classes which don’t use procs. All I m doing is calling out their [snip].

If you are forced to use 3 proc sets on our build you class has clearly lost your class identity

Average is just another way to say balanced, lol. If you aren't comfortable using average skills then why should you have a say in balance conversations?

All proc sets aren't bad. I share your dislike for them, but the vast majority of them scale off your damage and most of them are therefore balanced. The ones that don't are a way to have damage while remaining tanky, and as such create enough pressure where the rest of a class kit can actually finish a decent player. Because pressure is a thing a lot of classes lack right now.

The classes that don't need to use those proc sets are NB and DK. DK has plenty of pressure in class skills and also an ability to ignore penetration-- making it bursty enough to kill as well. NB is unique in that it doesn't have pressure... It just has one ability that might hit for a stupid high amount. It's spammable and it's ultimate are also required, but not so much for pressure per se but more for just supercharging that one skill.

If AW were to be nerfed and that power were put into their DoTs, as I'm suggesting (to help PvE,) then that would make them stop hitting non-tanky-brawlers for 20k but they would continue to have the ability to kill because they now have pressure which is why everybody else uses the OP proc sets in the first place. Then, of course, you nerf the offending proc sets into line with everyone else's level of pressure, nerf Corrosive, nerf Undeath, and then watch as people build less tanky and thus for myriad reasons now have the ability to kill. With or without proc sets.

That's it. That's the circumspect fix. It's the answer. And of course you can say things like buff Necro, fix werewolf, whatever. But that is the answer to THIS problem.

A similar result could be achieved by leaving AW the same and reducing the % modifiers, but now the DoTs just need to be buffed even more so what's the point? Right now the way they stack their modifiers up is the skill involved in the class so leave it. It's their crux. It's their corpse mechanic... Their molten whip mini-game.

It isn't too much to ask for a skill to not hit for 20k. Weaving a heavy attack on an off balance target isn't exactly hard. I don't see why you hold it's gameplay in such high regard.

Average = boring in a video game lol.

Proc sets play the game for you.

And nb isn’t supposed to be a pressure class.

Imagine a nb with 3 proc sets and getting bored coz you are not even playing the game now .

But it's like 4 or 5 proc sets out of the 200? 300? To me that's a reason to look a bit more deeply. As I've said before AW might be OP but Galerion's is probably worn by 0 players across all servers. It's not just how strong NB and DK are that compels the rest of the classes to wear the same 5 sets.

[edited to remove quote]

Mr_Jord_Joe

No not balanced

It's perfectly balanced

TechMaybeHic

Mr_Jord_Joe wrote: »

It's perfectly balanced

Well let me ask you this. Do you really have 43 k health?

Mr_Jord_Joe

No not balanced

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Mr_Jord_Joe wrote: »

It's perfectly balanced

Well let me ask you this. Do you really have 43 k health?

I always had 35k life, sometimes more, I'm ''support'', that day I managed to heal a ''lot'' of the damage (5k after initial hit i guess) from the gank, but ''Assassins Guile'' did too much damage after healing and I just died, i see balorg too :v

TechMaybeHic

Mr_Jord_Joe wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Mr_Jord_Joe wrote: »

It's perfectly balanced

Well let me ask you this. Do you really have 43 k health?

I always had 35k life, sometimes more, I'm ''support'', that day I managed to heal a ''lot'' of the damage (5k after initial hit i guess) from the gank, but ''Assassins Guile'' did too much damage after healing and I just died, i see balorg too :v

What i was about to get at is often times that last hit on the death recap is a lot more than it actually did. The over damage always seems to just do crazy numbers.

StaticWave

No not balanced

Mr_Jord_Joe wrote: »

It's perfectly balanced

You probably didn't have enough crit resistance and were squishy. I would have hit you for a 10k crit Crystal Weapon on my Sorc.

StaticWave

No not balanced

I only have 2 issues with NB and that's

1) They have too many offensive modifiers
2) They are too tanky for having that many modifiers unless fighting a DoT build

Like, they should only have 1 out of those 2, not both. I still don't think AW needs to be reworked or have its tooltip reduced. The ability hasn't been an issue for years and always had some form of counterplay. For example, I started blocking a lot more than normal and could still effectively block 70% of AW even with 260 ping. I'm confident I won't die to NB as much if my ping was normal.



The problem I have with NB's offense is them having access to Major Berserk, 300 WD from vamp passive, 300 WD from a full stack AW, 3k pen, potentially 20% more dmg done for 8s if they land the Incap, a lot of crit chance, and a lot of crit damage. That many modifiers means they only need 2 offensive skills to do as much damage as a Sorc with 3-4 offensive skills. Concealed Weapon when fully buffed deals 8-10k crit dmg on average, as much as a crit Crystal Frag.

None of this would be a problem if this class didn't receive so many modifiers. There's no need to nerf AW's tooltip because AW would just be another Bound Armaments (5 dagger BA is basically AW, so a nerfed AW would be similar to current BA). How many people do you see using BA other than bow sorcs? Yea, not that many lol.

Turtle_Bot

No not balanced

OBJnoob wrote: »

See that's just silly. Necros are worse than sorcs but they clearly have an identity. Having an identity and being good are totally different things.

Sorcs heal through offense-- either by critting or by directly applied dark magic damage. That's one thing that's unique.

They have a unique amount of delayed and/or stackable damage in their kit with curse, crystal, endless, and overload.

Their shiny lightning form is unique looking, which you may scoff at and consider only eye-candy, but actually it's a pretty good skill and semi-unique.

I just want to put a few caveats here on the sorc class identity and why it may be an identity (well some of it), but its not good enough to allow the class to function as a unique class and why sorcs are all running weapon/global skills and proc sets instead leading to the issue of lost class identity with sorc.

healing via dealing damage

Healing through dealing damage was unique to sorcs and plars, but the pale order mythic removed that identity from being unique long ago.

delayed damage

sorc does have a lot of delayed damage, it has far too much of it in fact, to the point that sorc usually forgoes the majority of their class damage abilities in favour of masters DW + vate destro ele sus to allow for the up front damage/pressure to balance out their damage kit and keep up some semblance of pressure to not only allow them to stay on the offense, but also keep proccing crit surge while they build up their next burst attempt.

lightning form

Lightning form is in need of a huge buff, yes it gives movement speed (but there so many practically free sources of that already), but the main issue with lightning form in particular is its radius did not get buffed with the melee range increase last patch. Lightning form is still only a 5m radius while all melee attacks got buffed to 7m, so melee enemies can easily outrange lightning form and never take damage from it (which also never procs crit surge meaning no healing from that either). This is actually a much bigger issue than many realise with how sorc currently works for healing over time through dealing damage. Hurricane is a little better with its radius, but the fact that it only gives minor expedition is rough for a class that is so dependent on high mobility and speed to evade incoming damage.

It's why sorc either runs hurricane (stamsorc) or chudan now and lightning form is never slotted on any top end build.

Not every class armor buff increases their speed, but with speed so free, that's not much of a buff, especially when you have to choose which speed buff to gain. Meanwhile you have
- DK gains damage return + AoE direct damage (pulls nb out of stealth) with a DoT on it or a damage shield
- warden gets additional mitigation or significant cost reduction + its a group buff
- necro gets cost reduction or a pull
- plar gets healing and sustain
- NB has it on a passive that is proc'd by their spammable, AoE HoT, class fear, cloak and shade
- arcanist gets minor breech (free 3k pen) + either free crux generation or additional block mitigation

All of those armor buffs provide useful effects that have no real cap on them, meaning they will always be worth slotting. The only real exception for being less useful than sorcs armor buff is necro, but even then the pull is useful (and annoying at times) and necro needs every bit of sustain it can get with both of those effects not really having a cap on them like speed does.

As was stated somewhere above, yes its all well and good to have something unique about a class, but if that unique thing is not strong enough then it might as well not exist at all because its just not worth running.

Hence why sorc is almost entirely just proc sets now and the best abilities to facilitate using those procs (which outside of streak and crit surge is mostly weapon abilities + 1 of the class's too many delayed burst skills).

Boundless storm (mag morph of lightning form) is a prime example of this. It used to be strong thanks to the major expedition it provided being so rare to get outside of making serious sacrifices to your build to get it, but the abundant sources of practically free speed has almost entirely deleted the value this buff once provided, especially combined with the constant bar space issues sorc is known for since the removal of overloads 3rd bar and even more so with the recent 'nerf by proxy' of not having its radius increased to match the new melee range meaning it is essentially an armor buff without a DoT component that gives 4 seconds of major expedition and that's it, the class is just objectively better off running chudan (which is major resolve + max health + armor) and freeing up bar space for vigor or RaT or running a bow on the back bar for the passive expedition there.

TL//DR: sorc still technically has class identity, but its remaining identity is so bad right now that it might as well not exist since it's not worth using it over generic globally available options.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand, AW used to be balanced, but with the numerous buffs the class has had over the past couple of years, this is no longer the case, the ability (well the class as a whole really) needs to be re-assessed, whether that's nerfing AW or the numerous buffs/effects or reverting the classes defensive capabilities back to where they were pre-buff and redesigning the buffs for the class to be much more PvE focused than the current buffs ended up being via either longer duration (or more damage) on the class DoTs or making some of the buffs NB has be limited to PvE only or some other way.

OBJnoob

No not balanced

@StaticWave I think there's a pretty large gaping window between AW and BA where one could be buffed or nerfed without becoming the other. Illustrated indirectly by how when you see a 25k AW on a death recap you remark "you're squishy, I could a hit you with a 10k crystal crit." 10k. 25k. 10k. 25k. Can AW not do 20k instead of 25k?

Don't get me wrong I see the logic in your stance. Yes, lowering their % modifiers or even changing their crit and penetration passives would also lower AW. But it would lower everything else as well and then you'd just have a deeper hole to dig out of when it came time to fix PvE.

@Turtle_Bot I can see where sorc identity has been watered down a little bit. They aren't the only ones with pets. They aren't the only one with shields. Mist form is sorta like streak. They aren't the only ones who can heal through offense. I get it. You're right. But they still uniquely have access to all of it, right? And a sorc could use the pale order ring for even MORE offensive healing, right?

I just mostly want to say again that certain things needing buffing isn't the same as not having an identity. And neither is not liking pets.

And using those proc sets is more indicative of the OP nature of the sets than the UnderPowered nature of the class. You'll notice they aren't the only ones resorting to this.

SandandStars

No not balanced

When was the last time anyone heard a single word from a ZOS employee about their experience playing PVP?

NB & DK are grossly overpowered vs all other classes. It’s ruined the game for me.

StaticWave

No not balanced

OBJnoob wrote: »

@StaticWave I think there's a pretty large gaping window between AW and BA where one could be buffed or nerfed without becoming the other. Illustrated indirectly by how when you see a 25k AW on a death recap you remark "you're squishy, I could a hit you with a 10k crystal crit." 10k. 25k. 10k. 25k. Can AW not do 20k instead of 25k?

Don't get me wrong I see the logic in your stance. Yes, lowering their % modifiers or even changing their crit and penetration passives would also lower AW. But it would lower everything else as well and then you'd just have a deeper hole to dig out of when it came time to fix PvE.

Okay first of all, that 25k AW was amplified by Incap's 20% dmg taken modifier. It would have realistically done ~20k damage without the modifier. So right of the bat we can see how much AW can do with all the extra amplifiers this class has. BA without amplifiers would do around 3k-3.5k damage per dagger against that person, or 12k-14k total damage. With 5 daggers, that's about 15k-17.5k total damage.

So 14k BA with 4 daggers vs 20k AW. Yes. BA deals 6k less damage, but the major benefit of BA is that it will drain your opponent's stam more. Since block cost has a 0.5s cooldown, your opponent's going to be drained twice per BA cast if they decide to block. This benefit alone helps it tremendously vs blocking targets.

That's just with 4 daggers. 5 dagger BA (which honestly should be given to Sorc by now) will trigger block cost 3 times per cast. I'm not saying BA is stronger than AW. I'm just saying BA when buffed will be stronger than AW, and AW when nerfed will not be as good as BA.




So we've established that the 25k AW from the screenshot was amplified by Incap and 20k would be the actual value, then how are you going to fix NB being absolutely shut down by roll dodge and block builds after AW gets nerfed? With 260 ping, I increased my survivability tremendously when I started blocking more than normal. Only times I died was when lag got me. With normal ping and no lag, there is nothing the NB can do to even remotely dent my HP.

As for PvE, why not just make their class DoTs stronger and nerf the modifiers? There are no NBs running class DoTs in PvP right now, and a huge buff to class DoTs wouldn't automatically make them slot those DoTs. There are too many good abilities for NB to give up.

Urzigurumash

Yes balanced

SandandStars wrote: »

When was the last time anyone heard a single word from a ZOS employee about their experience playing PVP?

NB & DK are grossly overpowered vs all other classes. It’s ruined the game for me.

But this increases the glory of winning on another class, no?

Hoarcrux

Yes balanced

React wrote: »

Edit: Here is the context that was missing, provided by the OP. OP was in a 1v1 with a warden, and had major + minor breach on him (-9k resists) and minor brittle (+10% crit damage taken), when this nightblade ganked him from stealth. He also states there was possibly a guard there, which means it is likely he had the guard puncture debuff - which is a 20-30% damage taken debuff.

Context is important. This person could have a 100-130% crit damage modifier, 30k+ pen, 6.5-7.5k WD (especially if using balorgh), and over 40% in flat skill/status sourced damage modifiers. In this case they'd be fully penning you, and their crits would still be dealing 80-100% more than the TT damage. These are all stats that you can realistically reach on a 1vX build with no outside buffs.

The skill is a slow moving projectile that requires 5 light attacks to proc, is blockable and dodgeable, has two distinct audio queues (one when it procs after 5 light attacks, another when it is fired), and has a 500ms minimum travel time, meaning at point blank you ALWAYS have sufficient time to break free of a stun and block or dodge it (with the exception of a well timed OB stun).

The other thing about AW is that it hasn't had it's damage changed in an extremely long time. The reason that people are seeing bigger numbers from it now (and subsequently, complaining) is because of the concealed weapon 10% damage modifier.

Concealed and several other parts of the nightblade kit could use adjustments - assassin's will is fine.

Spoken like a true Nightblade main. The fact that u can medium-weave icap and resolve in the same global CD and being unavoidable damage is the issue. Yes, there is some of setup that goes into the BIG crit, but there is no counterplay for it. That is the issue. I cannot even fossilize, whip players consistently on the DK because you can break-free, roll dodge in-between GCDs. Having a "spammable" that hits twice as hard as any ultimate in the entire game is not "Balanced" nor should be defended. If i cannot successful mitigate the burst of damage as a 9year veteran player, how can 95% of the player base do so? It is simply too simple. I will even play the Devils advocate and say, "okay well Nightbaldes are assassins'" sure that's fine, so explain why their healing is better than any other class in the game with healthy offering? When you give one class the highest burst damage, the best burst heals and access to stealth which is spammable.... i mean something has to give. Pick your poison. Nightblades have their cake and eat it too

TechMaybeHic

Urzigurumash wrote: »

SandandStars wrote: »

When was the last time anyone heard a single word from a ZOS employee about their experience playing PVP?

NB & DK are grossly overpowered vs all other classes. It’s ruined the game for me.

But this increases the glory of winning on another class, no?

I have to admit, I linger just a second longer over a dead DK or NB. No bags as that is too respectful lol

I kid slightly. I know a lot of DK and NB mains that were doing it for years and when the classes were not great or at least not easy in NBs case as they always were dangerous in the right hands. But then, I likely am not going to be standing over one of them

SandandStars

No not balanced

Urzigurumash wrote: »

But this increases the glory of winning on another class, no?

Yes, I hear you, Urzi, that kept me going for a while. But just about every time I run into a player of equal skill on either DK or NB, they are going to win because of the class kit imbalance. Sure, I beat some DKs & NBs, but they are probably a good deal less experienced/skilled than I am, which isn’t really satisfying.

Also, the competitive builds are so narrow these days, it’s like you’re fighting clones of the same cookie cutter.

Oh wow, Look at all these rending slashes on my recap…

What do you know, a Vateshran staff is firing again…

I’m tired of it.

Major_Toughness

Yes balanced

Hoarcrux wrote: »

React wrote: »

Edit: Here is the context that was missing, provided by the OP. OP was in a 1v1 with a warden, and had major + minor breach on him (-9k resists) and minor brittle (+10% crit damage taken), when this nightblade ganked him from stealth. He also states there was possibly a guard there, which means it is likely he had the guard puncture debuff - which is a 20-30% damage taken debuff.

Context is important. This person could have a 100-130% crit damage modifier, 30k+ pen, 6.5-7.5k WD (especially if using balorgh), and over 40% in flat skill/status sourced damage modifiers. In this case they'd be fully penning you, and their crits would still be dealing 80-100% more than the TT damage. These are all stats that you can realistically reach on a 1vX build with no outside buffs.

The skill is a slow moving projectile that requires 5 light attacks to proc, is blockable and dodgeable, has two distinct audio queues (one when it procs after 5 light attacks, another when it is fired), and has a 500ms minimum travel time, meaning at point blank you ALWAYS have sufficient time to break free of a stun and block or dodge it (with the exception of a well timed OB stun).

The other thing about AW is that it hasn't had it's damage changed in an extremely long time. The reason that people are seeing bigger numbers from it now (and subsequently, complaining) is because of the concealed weapon 10% damage modifier.

Concealed and several other parts of the nightblade kit could use adjustments - assassin's will is fine.

Spoken like a true Nightblade main. The fact that u can medium-weave icap and resolve in the same global CD and being unavoidable damage is the issue. Yes, there is some of setup that goes into the BIG crit, but there is no counterplay for it. That is the issue. I cannot even fossilize, whip players consistently on the DK because you can break-free, roll dodge in-between GCDs. Having a "spammable" that hits twice as hard as any ultimate in the entire game is not "Balanced" nor should be defended. If i cannot successful mitigate the burst of damage as a 9year veteran player, how can 95% of the player base do so? It is simply too simple. I will even play the Devils advocate and say, "okay well Nightbaldes are assassins'" sure that's fine, so explain why their healing is better than any other class in the game with healthy offering? When you give one class the highest burst damage, the best burst heals and access to stealth which is spammable.... i mean something has to give. Pick your poison. Nightblades have their cake and eat it too

You can not hit Incap, Medium weave and bow proc in the same GCD.

There are two ways that would stun you, either an off-balance stun, which does make breaking free in time to dodge or block Incap hard. But you will definitely be able to dodge/block bow proc if you break free.

Second is a "green" Incap stun, in which case is either dodgable or blockable, and will be tricky to break free in time after, but not impossible.

Bow proc has 250ms minimum travel time, so compared to a fossilise into whip, a stun into bow proc gives you more time to mitigate than the DKs combo.

You are factually incorrect that the NB combo is possible in one cooldown, and is harder to dodge.