Sorc Pain Points and ideas on buffs, changes and reworks to skills to bring the class up to par.

Pelanora

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Cronopoly wrote: »

Staring at Sorc Debuff awesomeness

It really is amazing. I play every class, have taken all through VMA, and have done at least 2 of each to undaunted 9. Each month I try to get 6-8 toons on the PVP 30 day leaderboard for rewards. In other words, I play them all. Certainly some more than others, but I play them all.

I was absolutely flabbergasted the first time I saw this chart. I didnt realize quite how bad sorc had it until I saw this.

Everyone has Major Defile except sorcs. Everyone has Major Maim, except Sorcs. Everyone has Major Fracture, except sorcs and templars. Everyone has major breach, except sorcs and DKs and templars (edited to correct major breach and fracture).

Sorcs have 5 Major buffs/debuffs. Wardens have 15, NBS and DKs have 12, and Templars have 7 (templars need some love too IMO).

Of a sorcs 5 major buffs, zero are unique. Every major buff a Sorc has, a NB has. Heck, lets take them one at a time.

Major Berzerk: NBs have this and minor berzerk to boot.
Major Ward: All classses have it
Major Resolve: All Classes have it
Major Brutality: All but templar have it
Major Sorcery: All but templar have it

So basically, of the 5, 2 are shared by all, 2 are the easiest buffs to give yourself with a potion and shared by most, and 1 is tied to an ultimate where the other class with it (NB) is tied to a regular skill.

Dear Combat Team,

If you are looking for the first place to start with balance, you dont need to look any further. It's a bad joke at this point.

Above was 2018. Below was 2022

MashmalloMan wrote: »

I primarily looked at doing this analysis because I felt this was a pain point for Sorc, the data seems to support that, but what surprised me was the results for Necro and NB. NB has been overloaded the past year or so to the point where they've surpassed Warden which was originally designed as the one man army, jack of all trades, master of none type of class. Templar and DK seem to be in a solid place as middle ground. Necro is just as low as Sorc, but they're mostly missing self buffs with great access to important debuffs.

The location of the buffs is important too. When they're attached to must have class skills they're obtained passively, skill archetypes for armor/sustain/burst/delayed burst/spammables/dots/cheap ultimates. Eg. Warden's getting Breach from their burst skill, Brutality/Sorcery from their sustain skill, Berserk from their movement skill, Mending from their passive, Protection from their armor skill, Vulnerability from their dot and Savagery/Prophecy from their hot.

Sorc in comparison has Sorcery from their hot and Expedition from their Armor skill, but none of the bread and butter skills they use give anything named. Bound Armaments, Curse, Crystal Frags/Weapon, Streak, Fury, Dark Deal/Exchange, Non Ult Pets, Lightning Flood, and Hardened Ward (Empowered Ward is too weak to bother with). Trying to slot simple effects like Major Breach and Savagery/Prophecy requires losing skill slots for Caltrops+Camo Hunter or potion flexibility, to which we just don't have the space for on a class expected to double slot pets and 4-5 damage skills to kill anything.

So ZOS, throw a bone to Sorc and Necro. Maybe Savagery/Prophecy on Curse, Brutality/Sorcery on Skeletal Mage.. something. I don't know. I've met Sorc mains that didn't know we have Major Vitality via Restraining Prison because no one uses the thing. The fact that a common Mag Sorc pvp build in 2022 still uses Mighty Chudan and Spell Power Pots instead of Boundless Storm and Surge is pretty telling - a setup that literally doesn't have a single named buff/debuff in class.

We need more than a burst heal, or for this to be all about streak.

Turtle_Bot

Pelanora wrote: »

"That class unique factor is still strong. Just ask hybrid sorcs or stamsorcs. It is in fact the strongest ability in the game."

Seriously, this is just crazy.

How did whole thread get hijacked to be about streak.

because everyone seems to love hating on sorc (something that seems to be endemic here on the forums...), always complaining about "OP streak" this and "streak too strong" that, and it is so much so, that they completely ignored the fact that I had also already nerfed streak with the potential change ideas I suggested and they just continued on and on about it.

Honestly, I'm sick of the whole streak debate. We all know that it is a strong ability in theory and when used against mediocre players, but there are many other stronger abilities in the game now and power creep has long since made streak not as overpowered as it used to be. (Notice how every argument from people complaining about streak is talking about what the game used to be like 5+ years ago, not the current state of the game).

Turtle_Bot

StaticWave wrote: »

Like yes, I get it sorc needs buffs, I want buffs too since I main the class! But when you give ZOS a list without specifying which is more important and needed, you're not going to do sorc mains a favor.

All those little changes are cool, but they aren't NEEDED. The single most needed thing on sorc right now is a true burst heal, and I will keep repeating this until the day this game ceases to exist. As a hybrid/stamsorc main that isn't using a 2 hand weapon for Rally or Blessing of Restoration, I can't tell you how important it is that we as a class, get this buff. It's not going to just benefit stamsorc. It's also going to benefit magsorc.

Imagine the day when we do get a true burst heal. Imagine the day you can use Hardened Ward to give yourself 12-13k of extra soft HP, and a true burst heal that can crit for 15-17k to save yourself from execute if you get low. Like, that would be fantastic. Stamsorcs will also benefit because they can actually use a burst heal that isn't Rally or Dark Deal.

Please, start with the most important stuff first lol. And please, stamsorcs exist. Everytime I hear sorc cries on the forums it's always about magsorc. We stamsorcs exist, and quite frankly, we need just as many buffs as magsorcs do.

I did a short list of the most important points on another thread linked below.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/624175/magsorc-pain-points-the-simple-and-in-depth-see-spoilers-forms#latest

That thread went over the main urgent pain points that always came up when discussing how the class is performing in a short list that had spoilered deeper explanations for those that wanted to read further.

It listed in order
1. being forced into boring heavy attack or pet builds
2. unreliability of skills
3. lack of viable defensive options
4. bad performance punishes sorc harder than other classes
5. old/outdated skills
6. unreliable/conflicting skills/buffs

The top 4 points all relate back to the lack of a good reliable healing option that every other class gets that is not tied to a double barred killable pet or an interruptible delayed heal that doesn't even scale.

Stamsorcs do need some help, but as a magsorc main who is currently running a stam focused hybrid sorc (DW/Bow), stamsorc is leagues ahead of magsorc in the current game and has been for a very long time now. Many of the options I gave here would also help stamsorc too, not just magsorc, especially with hybridization factored in.

Lastly, this thread was originally an in-depth dive into every skill and passive in the class kit to point out issues such as unreliability, being outdated, or just where each skill is underperforming to help target the things that need fixing should they decide to do that and what could potentially be done to fix them in the long term.

Turtle_Bot

Pelanora wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Cronopoly wrote: »

Staring at Sorc Debuff awesomeness

It really is amazing. I play every class, have taken all through VMA, and have done at least 2 of each to undaunted 9. Each month I try to get 6-8 toons on the PVP 30 day leaderboard for rewards. In other words, I play them all. Certainly some more than others, but I play them all.

I was absolutely flabbergasted the first time I saw this chart. I didnt realize quite how bad sorc had it until I saw this.

Everyone has Major Defile except sorcs. Everyone has Major Maim, except Sorcs. Everyone has Major Fracture, except sorcs and templars. Everyone has major breach, except sorcs and DKs and templars (edited to correct major breach and fracture).

Sorcs have 5 Major buffs/debuffs. Wardens have 15, NBS and DKs have 12, and Templars have 7 (templars need some love too IMO).

Of a sorcs 5 major buffs, zero are unique. Every major buff a Sorc has, a NB has. Heck, lets take them one at a time.

Major Berzerk: NBs have this and minor berzerk to boot.
Major Ward: All classses have it
Major Resolve: All Classes have it
Major Brutality: All but templar have it
Major Sorcery: All but templar have it

So basically, of the 5, 2 are shared by all, 2 are the easiest buffs to give yourself with a potion and shared by most, and 1 is tied to an ultimate where the other class with it (NB) is tied to a regular skill.

Dear Combat Team,

If you are looking for the first place to start with balance, you dont need to look any further. It's a bad joke at this point.

Above was 2018. Below was 2022

MashmalloMan wrote: »

I primarily looked at doing this analysis because I felt this was a pain point for Sorc, the data seems to support that, but what surprised me was the results for Necro and NB. NB has been overloaded the past year or so to the point where they've surpassed Warden which was originally designed as the one man army, jack of all trades, master of none type of class. Templar and DK seem to be in a solid place as middle ground. Necro is just as low as Sorc, but they're mostly missing self buffs with great access to important debuffs.

The location of the buffs is important too. When they're attached to must have class skills they're obtained passively, skill archetypes for armor/sustain/burst/delayed burst/spammables/dots/cheap ultimates. Eg. Warden's getting Breach from their burst skill, Brutality/Sorcery from their sustain skill, Berserk from their movement skill, Mending from their passive, Protection from their armor skill, Vulnerability from their dot and Savagery/Prophecy from their hot.

Sorc in comparison has Sorcery from their hot and Expedition from their Armor skill, but none of the bread and butter skills they use give anything named. Bound Armaments, Curse, Crystal Frags/Weapon, Streak, Fury, Dark Deal/Exchange, Non Ult Pets, Lightning Flood, and Hardened Ward (Empowered Ward is too weak to bother with). Trying to slot simple effects like Major Breach and Savagery/Prophecy requires losing skill slots for Caltrops+Camo Hunter or potion flexibility, to which we just don't have the space for on a class expected to double slot pets and 4-5 damage skills to kill anything.

So ZOS, throw a bone to Sorc and Necro. Maybe Savagery/Prophecy on Curse, Brutality/Sorcery on Skeletal Mage.. something. I don't know. I've met Sorc mains that didn't know we have Major Vitality via Restraining Prison because no one uses the thing. The fact that a common Mag Sorc pvp build in 2022 still uses Mighty Chudan and Spell Power Pots instead of Boundless Storm and Surge is pretty telling - a setup that literally doesn't have a single named buff/debuff in class.

We need more than a burst heal, or for this to be all about streak.

Yep, giving sorc a reliable burst heal would definitely help in the short term, but for the long term, possible solutions also need to be looked at so we don't end up getting 1 single skill that does everything (previous crystal weapon) which subsequently gets the entire class kit nerfed the following patch.

It's why I made this thread originally (before it got hijacked into a thread complaining about "streak OP"). It was to show each of the class abilities and passives individually, show where they are at in the current game and issues they have compared to what other classes have and give potential options to think about for long term buffs or reworks so the class can finally be more consistent and allow for a likely easier time balancing it through actual small tweaks instead of being forced to yoyo back and forth between "OP" and severely underpowered because they only change 1-2 skills and give those skills everything in 1 ability instead of buffing the class as a whole.

StaticWave

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Stamsorcs do need some help, but as a magsorc main who is currently running a stam focused hybrid sorc (DW/Bow), stamsorc is leagues ahead of magsorc in the current game and has been for a very long time now. Many of the options I gave here would also help stamsorc too, not just magsorc, especially with hybridization factored in.
[/b].

You went hybrid, that's why you came to the conclusion that hybrid sorc is better, not stamsorc. I would know because I've mained it for 5 years. Stamsorc is not leagues ahead of magsorc except for patches where certain proc sets allowed the class to abuse two specific playstyles (1-shot and ranged DPS). The 1-shot proc sorc was nerfed, so now only the ranged DPS one exists. Even then, those specs would not have been as good as they were without relying on proc sets, whereas other classes can use basic stat sets and still be just as good. Their biggest weakness has not been addressed either, which is a lack of burst heal, and that has been the case for 5 years.

Pure stamsorc (not hybrid) not using either of those builds is not leagues ahead of magsorc. Since a pure stamsorc has always relied on weapon skills, it has a lot less single target burst (although its AoE burst is slightly better). This again, doesn't give it specialization in anything because half of its kit is single target and the other half is AoE in the form of spin2win and DB.

It was only up until hybridization that stamsorc finally had access to Curse, which now put the class' burst on equal grounds with magsorc. That's why I said the moment hybridization was on PTS, I switched my build completely. In fact, I had already tinkered with Curse and magicka abilities a few months before ZOS even introduced hybridization in attempts to increase the class' burst potential.

Hybrid sorc is much better than pure stam and pure mag. The best hybrid builds for sorc often use a mix of weapon skills and magsorc's Curse/Frag. Its a class of its own and isn't a true representation of stam or magsorc in anyway.

Turtle_Bot

I was also running pure stamsorc alongside magsorc quite a lot up until about a year ago (I have 2 of each class, stam and mag versions and ran both versions of sorc a lot over the years with more time on my mag (it being my first and main)), so it's not like I have never played stamsorc.

It has always felt stronger than magsorc due to its access to the stronger weapons, their abilities and passives and just how much stronger on average stamina has been over magicka for the majority of the past few years, especially for damage and mitigation up until they did the hybridisation changes.

Stamsorc has always lacked a burst heal outside of rally, but stamsorc has also always had the better and more reliable self HoT option in vigor (outside of U33 where radiating was as strong as vigor after it got buffed).

Also bow/bow sorc has always been strong (even without the overtuned U34 crystal weapon and broken savage werewolf builds) The issue was almost nobody bothered to run it since the other classes were always getting buffs and becoming the FOTM classes. Sure stamsorc never had the staying power of the old shield stacking magsorcs, but it had far more mobility, higher damage and a freer time avoiding damage than magsorc had, so it always had its strengths over magsorc, especially after the still unfinished max stats/damage rework that gutted magsorcs main defensive options in shields.

Granted, it's not leagues ahead, but stamsorc has always had plenty of options over magsorc that has almost always kept it above magsorc, at least for pvp.

Hybrid everything is stronger than pure stam/mag counterparts currently. That's just how they've developed this game over the past year with hybridization. There are still stam and mag focused hybrid builds though that lean more into 1 or the other stat and I still find stam leaning hybrid sorc builds much stronger than mag leaning hybrid sorc builds. Mostly because of the access to the stamina defensive options that allow the class to stay alive longer to deal its damage.

axi

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

I have no issue with discussing sorc changes. The thing is most of the people who discusses them want to bring sorcs kit on pair with others while also keeping streak untouched or barely changed which is a collosal mistake which has been proven numerous times already.

So overbuffing sorc is the only colossal mistake which can be made so far.

What about the rest which are already in the game ?

When it comes to collosal mistakes than yes. Overbuffing sorc while keeping streak relatively untouched is the biggest mistake possible PvP wise. Doesn't mean there were no other mistakes being made but we had this argument few times already. Fact that mistakes were made in the past on other classes does not justify overbuffing sorc. As for currently overbuffed features some deserve tuning down.

Let’s catch the lowest possible hanging fruit because it’s the easiest.

Your entire argument only holds value if everything else is ideally balanced and we are talking about overbuffing sorc. Right now as it stands mag sorc is the worst pvp class by a mile.

Also it’s just your opinion that sorc will be overbuffed without nerfing streak

I can also then state my opinion that we can start with blanket nerfs to nb by reducing all their damage by 30%. Because nb spammables like surprise attack hit harder than sorc ultimates.

I don't see how my argument would hold value only if everything else would be ideally balanced. You are creating some wierd ruleset to justify Your own agenda. Care to explain Your reasoning?

I wouldnt say magsorc is "the worst by a mile". It's mediocre for sure but still have its use and places where it can shine although some of the playstyles required for that may not please more classic magsorc enjoyers because many people will just say "I dont like to use this and that" or "i dont like to play that way".

This game history has proven that even minor tweaks made incorrectly to magsorc may bring complete mayhen just like it happened last time ZoS tried to buff sorc kit with "slight" change to a rune cage.

And no as I've said many times it's not just my opinion. It's a fact proven many times throughout games history. Accept it or not, but it's a fact. Streak is too far ahead of everything else making sorc always problematic to balance properly.

Well nerfs to nb You so desperatly seem to need actually happened around 3-4 years ago. Nb in PvP lost like 15-20% of its dmg at that time and was in a pretty bad shape to the point many people stopped to play it. Current buffs are result of reverting these changes and a try to finally make magblade decent at PvP because magblade outside of some gank memes was bottom tier for way longer than magsorc is at its current state. As for Your argumentation about supprise attack vs sorc ultimates someone could counter it with equally silly reasoning that sorc needs a dmg nerf because crystal frag when spammed hits harder than supprise attack. Comparing abilities in a vaccum is kinda pointless.

Reality is that mag sorc is still the worst pvp spec. Nb is the most busted pvp spec.

There is no fantasy world where mag sorc is busted and nb is weak. You are still complaining like that fantasy has become a reality

Want to bet or create a poll on whether there will be nb buffs or mag sorc buffs next patch ?
My vote will always be for the former and I am never wrong.

We can complain about sorc buffs when they actually happen

Reality is also that magblade was worst PvP spec for longer than magsorc and magsorc atleast share that spot with some other setups when magblade was just behind everyone at some point.

It's not fantasy. There was time in the game when magsorc was busted and stamblade was between mediocre and ok at best and magblade was useless at the same time. Tables have turned.

I was never complaining about sorc buffs. I just pointed out that streak is the thing that holds sorc back from getting much needed improvements.

It’s been a few years for mag sorc at the bottom tier. The last time mag sorc was decent was during pet sorc meta.

Reality is the present not the past. Talking about mag blade is the past.

I don’t see a problem buffing streak and the rest of the sorc toolkit.

NB receives buffs every patch. What’s wrong if sorc receives it once in a while.

Buffing other skills while nerfing streak is not really a buff.

No it hasn't been few years for magsorc to be a bottom tier. Excluding few first motnhs of the game and last few months magsorc was never bottom tier in PvP. And even during last few months there are certain areas in pvP where other classes can perform worse than magsorc

Here are for example tier lists made by a group of experienced PvP players who discussed PvP balance and then together were coming up with tier lists for a certain patch : 2020 greymoor https://imgbb.com/tmWYVH3 , 2021 flames of ambition https://imgbb.com/vQ8Lpnd , 2022 ascending tides https://imgbb.com/LZX4nd4 . As You can see during last 3 years sorc was never ranked as bottom class at any of PvP types. Quite frankly he was always in the upper half, scoring usually between S and B tier. Yes we can see drop in effectiveness with each patch and getting lower notes but magsorcs were far from "being a bottom tier for few years". Funnily enough nightblade which You praise so much as being always the best and always buffed was still ranked in bottom tier at certain PvP aspects like smallscale Cyrodill PvP.

You may not see a problem for buffing streak and rest of the kit because You've proven beyond any doubt a complete bias towards magsorc and that You don't want a balanced game You just want Your class to be broken once again.

I told this like 5 times already but it seems like I need to say it again. The reason why nightblade was getting buffs for last few patches is because at some point ZoS overnerfed that class which they later fixed with multiple buffs plus magblade was in dire need on buffs because as I already said that class was the weakest PvP setup for way longer than magsorc. Isn't that funny that sorc despite not reciving buffs or even reciving nerfs for so long still managed to be in upper half of tier list for while magblade needed few patches of strong buffs just to be ok right now? What's wrong with sorc reciving it once in a while? Well every time sorc recived noticable buffs it was becoming the new worst PvP meta.

Nerfing streak is the only way to give strong buffs to other parts of magsorc kit without completly breaking game balance. With no nerfs to streak sorc may get minor tweaks at best and to be honest minor tweaks is all that class needs atm.

Imagine posting class tiers created by a nb main. Not sure why I should even see it.

For solo pvp nightblade particularly the stamina one has always been strong in the history of the game. That’s the only pvp category I care about. I want sorc to be on equal footing or better.

Imagine not reading full list of people who made that class tier list. I've literally mentioned that fact in my previous post. There were many people who took part in making that list including devoted sorc mains like Malcolm. It's signed with Sniker's name only because discussions were happening on his discord and he was the person putting all information gathered together. There is literally list of most involved people at the bottom of each screen. I guess Your bias made You blind to that fact.

If You care only about solo PvP than Your bias is visible even more because while You are claiming that magsorc was the weakest for years, tier lists provided above put magsorc at S tier in years 2020 and 2021 for solo CP Cyrodill while stamblae was A+ which makes Your claims of sorc "being bottom tier for years" even more silly. Even if people in that list would made some mistakes You cannot claim that 25+ experienced PvP players made a mistake of putting sorc at high spots instead of the last spots. Sorry but it doesn't work that way. I think it's a time for You to accept the reality.

RemoryAzure

axi wrote: »

<Why most of the people choose to play in meele? because it's more effective, as it should be since Your offense is hindered to be always at 5-7 meters range>

<Meeles force You to fight in close range? Like they visit Your home and scream "Play in meele!"? Nobody forces You to anything, if You engage in a fight with meele setup and You stay in meele that was Your choice>

<That idea is still nonsensical since meele setups effectiveness would be close to zero after 7 meters mark. What would be the point of meele abilities if range ones are doing similar dmg at meele range and can be still used at longer distances? And now not only You want to give every range setup dmg adventage but also force every meele setup to slot gap closer just to have a chance to fight against that adventage. What a great balance.>

<> as u say, it should be more effective when offense is hindered to be at 5-7m. which is not the case of eso, with current movespeed meta and gap closers with no cd. make overall movespeed atleast 30% lower AND give gap closers atleast 6-8 sec cd. THEN 10% less dmg on ranged abilities will be fair. right now ranged builds are literal trash

<> yes, they do. they force me to fight in close range by spamming gap closers until i give up on kiting and stay in one place coz this is how this game is made to be, u dont have any single advantage in being melee. not a single one.

<> so, i repeat again, i suggest a solution that will be good for everyone, especially for melees, and u call it unbalanced? with or without this change, melees have no effectiveness after 5m range, which is easily solved in 0.5 sec with 1 button press, BUT the most important thing in this is that after suggested change ranged builds will do less dmg at 30-40m range which will make bruiser life much easier in large scale pvp, while giving ranged builds about 20% chance to kill melee in 1v1 with equal gear/cp/skill level, which is like 20 times more than current situation, where ranged build has only 1% chance to kill equal melee, and this is pingspike/lag/blackout

RemoryAzure

StaticWave wrote: »

The single most needed thing on sorc right now is a true burst hea

many people suggested pets to be untargetable/unkillable, which is ideal fix for this - enemies will get easier time with targeting, while sorc will get his heal available anytime. 1 bar pets is also nice thing to get btw, like nb's shadow.

PhoenixGrey

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

I have no issue with discussing sorc changes. The thing is most of the people who discusses them want to bring sorcs kit on pair with others while also keeping streak untouched or barely changed which is a collosal mistake which has been proven numerous times already.

So overbuffing sorc is the only colossal mistake which can be made so far.

What about the rest which are already in the game ?

When it comes to collosal mistakes than yes. Overbuffing sorc while keeping streak relatively untouched is the biggest mistake possible PvP wise. Doesn't mean there were no other mistakes being made but we had this argument few times already. Fact that mistakes were made in the past on other classes does not justify overbuffing sorc. As for currently overbuffed features some deserve tuning down.

Let’s catch the lowest possible hanging fruit because it’s the easiest.

Your entire argument only holds value if everything else is ideally balanced and we are talking about overbuffing sorc. Right now as it stands mag sorc is the worst pvp class by a mile.

Also it’s just your opinion that sorc will be overbuffed without nerfing streak

I can also then state my opinion that we can start with blanket nerfs to nb by reducing all their damage by 30%. Because nb spammables like surprise attack hit harder than sorc ultimates.

I don't see how my argument would hold value only if everything else would be ideally balanced. You are creating some wierd ruleset to justify Your own agenda. Care to explain Your reasoning?

I wouldnt say magsorc is "the worst by a mile". It's mediocre for sure but still have its use and places where it can shine although some of the playstyles required for that may not please more classic magsorc enjoyers because many people will just say "I dont like to use this and that" or "i dont like to play that way".

This game history has proven that even minor tweaks made incorrectly to magsorc may bring complete mayhen just like it happened last time ZoS tried to buff sorc kit with "slight" change to a rune cage.

And no as I've said many times it's not just my opinion. It's a fact proven many times throughout games history. Accept it or not, but it's a fact. Streak is too far ahead of everything else making sorc always problematic to balance properly.

Well nerfs to nb You so desperatly seem to need actually happened around 3-4 years ago. Nb in PvP lost like 15-20% of its dmg at that time and was in a pretty bad shape to the point many people stopped to play it. Current buffs are result of reverting these changes and a try to finally make magblade decent at PvP because magblade outside of some gank memes was bottom tier for way longer than magsorc is at its current state. As for Your argumentation about supprise attack vs sorc ultimates someone could counter it with equally silly reasoning that sorc needs a dmg nerf because crystal frag when spammed hits harder than supprise attack. Comparing abilities in a vaccum is kinda pointless.

Reality is that mag sorc is still the worst pvp spec. Nb is the most busted pvp spec.

There is no fantasy world where mag sorc is busted and nb is weak. You are still complaining like that fantasy has become a reality

Want to bet or create a poll on whether there will be nb buffs or mag sorc buffs next patch ?
My vote will always be for the former and I am never wrong.

We can complain about sorc buffs when they actually happen

Reality is also that magblade was worst PvP spec for longer than magsorc and magsorc atleast share that spot with some other setups when magblade was just behind everyone at some point.

It's not fantasy. There was time in the game when magsorc was busted and stamblade was between mediocre and ok at best and magblade was useless at the same time. Tables have turned.

I was never complaining about sorc buffs. I just pointed out that streak is the thing that holds sorc back from getting much needed improvements.

It’s been a few years for mag sorc at the bottom tier. The last time mag sorc was decent was during pet sorc meta.

Reality is the present not the past. Talking about mag blade is the past.

I don’t see a problem buffing streak and the rest of the sorc toolkit.

NB receives buffs every patch. What’s wrong if sorc receives it once in a while.

Buffing other skills while nerfing streak is not really a buff.

No it hasn't been few years for magsorc to be a bottom tier. Excluding few first motnhs of the game and last few months magsorc was never bottom tier in PvP. And even during last few months there are certain areas in pvP where other classes can perform worse than magsorc

Here are for example tier lists made by a group of experienced PvP players who discussed PvP balance and then together were coming up with tier lists for a certain patch : 2020 greymoor https://imgbb.com/tmWYVH3 , 2021 flames of ambition https://imgbb.com/vQ8Lpnd , 2022 ascending tides https://imgbb.com/LZX4nd4 . As You can see during last 3 years sorc was never ranked as bottom class at any of PvP types. Quite frankly he was always in the upper half, scoring usually between S and B tier. Yes we can see drop in effectiveness with each patch and getting lower notes but magsorcs were far from "being a bottom tier for few years". Funnily enough nightblade which You praise so much as being always the best and always buffed was still ranked in bottom tier at certain PvP aspects like smallscale Cyrodill PvP.

You may not see a problem for buffing streak and rest of the kit because You've proven beyond any doubt a complete bias towards magsorc and that You don't want a balanced game You just want Your class to be broken once again.

I told this like 5 times already but it seems like I need to say it again. The reason why nightblade was getting buffs for last few patches is because at some point ZoS overnerfed that class which they later fixed with multiple buffs plus magblade was in dire need on buffs because as I already said that class was the weakest PvP setup for way longer than magsorc. Isn't that funny that sorc despite not reciving buffs or even reciving nerfs for so long still managed to be in upper half of tier list for while magblade needed few patches of strong buffs just to be ok right now? What's wrong with sorc reciving it once in a while? Well every time sorc recived noticable buffs it was becoming the new worst PvP meta.

Nerfing streak is the only way to give strong buffs to other parts of magsorc kit without completly breaking game balance. With no nerfs to streak sorc may get minor tweaks at best and to be honest minor tweaks is all that class needs atm.

Imagine posting class tiers created by a nb main. Not sure why I should even see it.

For solo pvp nightblade particularly the stamina one has always been strong in the history of the game. That’s the only pvp category I care about. I want sorc to be on equal footing or better.

Imagine not reading full list of people who made that class tier list. I've literally mentioned that fact in my previous post. There were many people who took part in making that list including devoted sorc mains like Malcolm. It's signed with Sniker's name only because discussions were happening on his discord and he was the person putting all information gathered together. There is literally list of most involved people at the bottom of each screen. I guess Your bias made You blind to that fact.

If You care only about solo PvP than Your bias is visible even more because while You are claiming that magsorc was the weakest for years, tier lists provided above put magsorc at S tier in years 2020 and 2021 for solo CP Cyrodill while stamblae was A+ which makes Your claims of sorc "being bottom tier for years" even more silly. Even if people in that list would made some mistakes You cannot claim that 25+ experienced PvP players made a mistake of putting sorc at high spots instead of the last spots. Sorry but it doesn't work that way. I think it's a time for You to accept the reality.

Ok so it happened on a nightblade discord lol

That sums it up perfectly !

Please don’t stop now. I want to hear more about it.

Pelanora

RemoryAzure wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

The single most needed thing on sorc right now is a true burst hea

many people suggested pets to be untargetable/unkillable, which is ideal fix for this - enemies will get easier time with targeting, while sorc will get his heal available anytime. 1 bar pets is also nice thing to get btw, like nb's shadow.

I can see how this suits pvp but in pve, keeping your pet alive is part of the play, in the early stages while pve is tricky. I don't think that should be changed, makes things too easy.

Taking pets into battlegrounds is nuts. It's like being able to take companions. This is an issue for sorc, yes, but it's still nuts. Perma pets that attack would be even more nuts..

axi

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

No I am not giving shields too many credit. I still remember being able to run 19k HP on my magsorc and being able to survive way more than people with 30k+ HP. That was happening because shields unlike heals can be also an HP extension. Back in the days You could run that under 20k HP setup and cover Your health with over 25k shields. This is why ZoS started to nerf certain aspects of shields one after another. And Your argument about templar shield is horribly wrong. They were never using their shield because it scales purely from max HP and it have smaller scaling from max HP than sorc's shield from max magicka so in order to reach shield value similar to sorc with 35k magicka templars would need 45k HP and at that point having shield was kinda pointless unless You were one of mentioned by You niche setups that were stacking max HP (and magicka regen) as high as they could to spam blazing shield and get decent enough dmg out of it because dmg of that ability was scaling from shield value. It had nothing to do with heals being stronger than shields. And funnily enough back in the day when harness magicka was a powerfull shield everyone was running with it even classes that had acces to heals so Your argument is kinda invalid.

You're still talking about half a decade ago when 20k max health was the norm, 23k+ was considered tanky and damage was much lower as was sustain, healing and mitigation.
If we are to keep bringing up the past, I could go back further than you to 2014 where sorcs were in just as bad a spot as they currently are for pvp, but were still very strong in pve and could use that as an excuse to make the buffs I suggested even more broken and overpowered because the class has always been a class that is either strong or severely underpowered.

Edit: Also this time you're carrying on about was also where investing into max stats had actual value so building for big shields did not hinder anything else on the build as max mag was just as strong as raw damage was for damage and healing values.
End Edit.

Not a half decade ago. Even in 2019 running with lower 20k health was still possible when other classes were already running 30k or more. it's a general rule of the thumb for sorc that as long as shields are stronmg You can get away with way less health than others because shields will be used as HP extension. Quite frankly even in 2014 sorcs were not in a bad spot if You include end of the year. They were lacking for few months after game release but they quickly got improvements that resulted with really powerfull outcomes in 2015. And in 2014 sorcs were garbage in PvE in terms of DPS. Dk was a king and the only reason to bring a sorc was a negate spam because back than You could turn off many boss mechanics witrh it but sorc was just brought as offhealer for that. Their strenght in PvE was shining at grind spots maybe. Sorc in PvP excluding first and last few months of the game was always strong and always in the upper part of the tier list. PvE is a different story but in PvE basically every class have time when it was strong and weak.

Funnily enough in a vaccum investing into max stats in terms of dmg gives sorc more power right now than it used to back in the past becase many things back than had higher scaling from spell dmg, for example light attack had scaling 20:1 and mines had whooping 40:1 scaling while now everything have scaling 10,5:1. And sorc crit surge was increasing weapon dmg and weapon dmg was affecting only weapon abilities. When it comes to shields it's that HP percentage cap that messed sorc up. Also thing is back then other classes had not many options to reach proportionally higher wep/spell dmg values than sorcs max magicka values. And yes I can agree that mechanics of shield scaling is outdated due to the fact of how many sets these days offer way more strenght through wep/spell dmg buffs or through sustain.

I was comparing streak to shade and invis individually, not together, each of those abilities are just as strong as streak, if not stronger and NB got to keep BOTH at full power when getting all of their buffs.
You look at having to pre-cast shade as a weakness, while at the same time saying that using shields as a pre-cast heal is a strength, so which is it, because you cannot have it both ways.

There is no world where shade or cloak can compete with streak individually. I wouldn't say that nb got to keep both at at full power since full power cloak back in the days was cleansing the DoTs but whatever. Both cloak and shade only when used together can offer full reliable disengage similar or even better to that of streak. Individually cloak is way less reliable than streak and shade requires way more finese to use than streak. it's not a coincidence that so many nbs is so easy to kill. Only tiny percentage of nb can execute the usage of shade or cloak at the levels which are really influencing the combat, most nb players just suck at it.

Yes You can have it both ways. Pre casted shade is a weakness because You dont get what You've paid for immidiately. You need to take series of actions, for the final outcome to happen because it won't happen otherwise. Pre casted shield gives You what You've paid for immidiately no strings attached, no additional moves and time required for it to actually work. This is one of the reasons shield 20 second duration got nerfed and why possibly one of Your ideas to make them 10 seconds long is not the best.

Where did I say I wanted ranged abilities to deal the same damage as melee, I was pointing out that range already has its 10% (and more) nerf to their damage values when compared to equivalent melee abilities.
You have also completely omitted the fact that dodge roll and invis are a 100% mitigation of ranged abilities damage. This makes them also a hard counter to ranged damage, 1 of which (dodge roll) is part of every single class kit and the other (invis) is available through potions to everyone and is on a spammable ability on NB.
You also talk about 40m as if that is the default range of everything. It is not, it is only the range of 28m+ ranged abilities when used near a keep in cyrodiil. Otherwise the default range of everything is much lower at 28m with only snipe being the exception (35m snipe/lethal and 40m for focused aim).

Where did i say that You've said that? I was just pointing out that lower dmg on certain range abilities is perfectly justified. By Your logic shields are 100% mitigation to any dmg lower than shield value (excluding oblivion dmg). Or streak is 100% mitigation of meele dmg. Let's ingore what happens after using them right? Hard counter is something You can use freely at any given time. Roll dodge or invisibility have its limitations. Like who will run out of resoucres first dodge spammer or some range ability spammer? Both dodge roll and invisibility are counters to range dmg and also to meele dmg but they are not hard counters because if they are than streak and shields would be also.I am far from saying that dodge or cloak are weak defensives but get real You won't defend range playstyles or sorc in particular with argumentation that dodge or cloak exist. if You are saying that invisibility is possible to obrain for everyone through potions that I going by Your logic I can say that cloak and invisibility in general are garbage because everyone have acces to detect pots. Like seriously You are bringing invisibility potions as Your arguments? 20-28 meters is still few times more more than 5-7.

As opposed to now where NB can still do that and gets cheaper dodge rolls than everyone else thanks to the buff to blur, not to mention every other class that can do that too, even more so if they run a basic pvp sustain set like wretched on the back bar (My stamden is a perfect example of this, despite only having roughly 1600 stam recovery + netch and no wretched vitality) I am able to essentially infinitely dodge roll with it even with the ramping cost because it is so damn cheap to begin with thanks to all the reduced cost CP, imperial race, etc that the ramping cost isn't noticed until the 20th roll. I could (and have) also easily do something similar on any of my other classes if I were to run sustain focused builds, but I prefer to go for more damage and healing.

Yeah I would really like to see Your stamden roll dodging infinitely, like seriously show me some recording of you spamming dodges like atleast 10-15 times in a row like it used to be possible. Otherwise i call BS on Your claims of possibility to infinityly spam dodge. Doing it once every 4 seconds is not what I would call infinite roll dodging. Even nb which recived buffs to dodge through blur gets that buff on 1 next dodge so even with blur You cannot spam dodge infinitely especially that proc condition for that dodge cost reduction on blur is to take direct dmg which roll dodge is created to avoid so the more You dodge the less benefit from blur You get. I will still wait for that 15 dodges in a row recording though.

Or the devs just listen to the forums where everyone bashes on sorcs because everyone is still afraid of a now mediocre class that used to be strong 5 years ago and hasn't been anywhere near as strong ever since power creep overtook the class.

That class was still strong like 1-2 years ago. Not top dog but far from being weak. It was just last year when magsorc started to really, really slack behind due to everyone else getting direct buffs to their kits or indirect buffs through itemization which sorc cannot take adventage of due to class limitations in gearing up. To be honest there wasn't lot of sorc bashing lately and no devs are not listening to forum unless there is some massive outcry like like when they wanted to add cast time on shields or silence on incap. The real question is, should sorc be as strong as it used to be this mentioned 5 or even 4 years ago? Wasn't that too much to have offense and defense and control comparable or higher than others while also being the most mobile class? My words still stands. As long as sorc have streak and (to the lesser extent) shields it will be extremly hard to balance that class properly.

Actually I do, I have repeatedly called and supported for necro skulls and pets to be buffed. I have called and supported for templars to have their recent nerfs reverted and the power they had consolidated into beam to be re-spread back to the rest of the class kit. I was also calling for wardens to get buffs pre U36 and even when getting their buffs, I was calling for the buffs to not be tied down to frost staves. I was also among those that wanted magblade to be made stronger back when it was a bad class, same with DK back before they got their overtuned buffs.
So yes, I do call for buffs to all of the other classes when they need it. So try not to infer otherwise because that is just flat out wrong.

These examples are still not all underperforming abilities in the game. You kinda avoided answering my question.

I refer you to the following points I made in my original post:

Changes that You propose change literally nothing and leave strong streak equally or even more strong. You want stronger and longer lasting shields plus dark deal being cheap isnatnt cast heal that also restores resources and all You give up is a stun on streak but You also want streak to be cheaper and have longer distance. There is no real nerf to streak in that scenario. You buff both sorc defense and mobility. That additional 5 meters would be a massive buff allowing sorcs to even easier reach places unreachable for everyone else and allowing for extremly easy getting away from gap closer range since You would just need to be 3 meters away from someone to be out of gap closer range after teleport so just dodge+streak and You are beyond reach especially that You would also apply snare to them. Right now to travel 60 meters You need 4 streaks, after Your changes You would need 3 streaks which means a massive cost reduction to getting awat from combat. Your changes would overbuff sorc and and bring back broken playstyles. You are literally trying to give sorc an easy guaranteed escape button which is the biggest concern that community always have towards sorc.

Pelanora

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

I have no issue with discussing sorc changes. The thing is most of the people who discusses them want to bring sorcs kit on pair with others while also keeping streak untouched or barely changed which is a collosal mistake which has been proven numerous times already.

So overbuffing sorc is the only colossal mistake which can be made so far.

What about the rest which are already in the game ?

When it comes to collosal mistakes than yes. Overbuffing sorc while keeping streak relatively untouched is the biggest mistake possible PvP wise. Doesn't mean there were no other mistakes being made but we had this argument few times already. Fact that mistakes were made in the past on other classes does not justify overbuffing sorc. As for currently overbuffed features some deserve tuning down.

Let’s catch the lowest possible hanging fruit because it’s the easiest.

Your entire argument only holds value if everything else is ideally balanced and we are talking about overbuffing sorc. Right now as it stands mag sorc is the worst pvp class by a mile.

Also it’s just your opinion that sorc will be overbuffed without nerfing streak

I can also then state my opinion that we can start with blanket nerfs to nb by reducing all their damage by 30%. Because nb spammables like surprise attack hit harder than sorc ultimates.

I don't see how my argument would hold value only if everything else would be ideally balanced. You are creating some wierd ruleset to justify Your own agenda. Care to explain Your reasoning?

I wouldnt say magsorc is "the worst by a mile". It's mediocre for sure but still have its use and places where it can shine although some of the playstyles required for that may not please more classic magsorc enjoyers because many people will just say "I dont like to use this and that" or "i dont like to play that way".

This game history has proven that even minor tweaks made incorrectly to magsorc may bring complete mayhen just like it happened last time ZoS tried to buff sorc kit with "slight" change to a rune cage.

And no as I've said many times it's not just my opinion. It's a fact proven many times throughout games history. Accept it or not, but it's a fact. Streak is too far ahead of everything else making sorc always problematic to balance properly.

Well nerfs to nb You so desperatly seem to need actually happened around 3-4 years ago. Nb in PvP lost like 15-20% of its dmg at that time and was in a pretty bad shape to the point many people stopped to play it. Current buffs are result of reverting these changes and a try to finally make magblade decent at PvP because magblade outside of some gank memes was bottom tier for way longer than magsorc is at its current state. As for Your argumentation about supprise attack vs sorc ultimates someone could counter it with equally silly reasoning that sorc needs a dmg nerf because crystal frag when spammed hits harder than supprise attack. Comparing abilities in a vaccum is kinda pointless.

Reality is that mag sorc is still the worst pvp spec. Nb is the most busted pvp spec.

There is no fantasy world where mag sorc is busted and nb is weak. You are still complaining like that fantasy has become a reality

Want to bet or create a poll on whether there will be nb buffs or mag sorc buffs next patch ?
My vote will always be for the former and I am never wrong.

We can complain about sorc buffs when they actually happen

Reality is also that magblade was worst PvP spec for longer than magsorc and magsorc atleast share that spot with some other setups when magblade was just behind everyone at some point.

It's not fantasy. There was time in the game when magsorc was busted and stamblade was between mediocre and ok at best and magblade was useless at the same time. Tables have turned.

I was never complaining about sorc buffs. I just pointed out that streak is the thing that holds sorc back from getting much needed improvements.

It’s been a few years for mag sorc at the bottom tier. The last time mag sorc was decent was during pet sorc meta.

Reality is the present not the past. Talking about mag blade is the past.

I don’t see a problem buffing streak and the rest of the sorc toolkit.

NB receives buffs every patch. What’s wrong if sorc receives it once in a while.

Buffing other skills while nerfing streak is not really a buff.

No it hasn't been few years for magsorc to be a bottom tier. Excluding few first motnhs of the game and last few months magsorc was never bottom tier in PvP. And even during last few months there are certain areas in pvP where other classes can perform worse than magsorc

Here are for example tier lists made by a group of experienced PvP players who discussed PvP balance and then together were coming up with tier lists for a certain patch : 2020 greymoor https://imgbb.com/tmWYVH3 , 2021 flames of ambition https://imgbb.com/vQ8Lpnd , 2022 ascending tides https://imgbb.com/LZX4nd4 . As You can see during last 3 years sorc was never ranked as bottom class at any of PvP types. Quite frankly he was always in the upper half, scoring usually between S and B tier. Yes we can see drop in effectiveness with each patch and getting lower notes but magsorcs were far from "being a bottom tier for few years". Funnily enough nightblade which You praise so much as being always the best and always buffed was still ranked in bottom tier at certain PvP aspects like smallscale Cyrodill PvP.

You may not see a problem for buffing streak and rest of the kit because You've proven beyond any doubt a complete bias towards magsorc and that You don't want a balanced game You just want Your class to be broken once again.

I told this like 5 times already but it seems like I need to say it again. The reason why nightblade was getting buffs for last few patches is because at some point ZoS overnerfed that class which they later fixed with multiple buffs plus magblade was in dire need on buffs because as I already said that class was the weakest PvP setup for way longer than magsorc. Isn't that funny that sorc despite not reciving buffs or even reciving nerfs for so long still managed to be in upper half of tier list for while magblade needed few patches of strong buffs just to be ok right now? What's wrong with sorc reciving it once in a while? Well every time sorc recived noticable buffs it was becoming the new worst PvP meta.

Nerfing streak is the only way to give strong buffs to other parts of magsorc kit without completly breaking game balance. With no nerfs to streak sorc may get minor tweaks at best and to be honest minor tweaks is all that class needs atm.

Imagine posting class tiers created by a nb main. Not sure why I should even see it.

For solo pvp nightblade particularly the stamina one has always been strong in the history of the game. That’s the only pvp category I care about. I want sorc to be on equal footing or better.

Imagine not reading full list of people who made that class tier list. I've literally mentioned that fact in my previous post. There were many people who took part in making that list including devoted sorc mains like Malcolm. It's signed with Sniker's name only because discussions were happening on his discord and he was the person putting all information gathered together. There is literally list of most involved people at the bottom of each screen. I guess Your bias made You blind to that fact.

If You care only about solo PvP than Your bias is visible even more because while You are claiming that magsorc was the weakest for years, tier lists provided above put magsorc at S tier in years 2020 and 2021 for solo CP Cyrodill while stamblae was A+ which makes Your claims of sorc "being bottom tier for years" even more silly. Even if people in that list would made some mistakes You cannot claim that 25+ experienced PvP players made a mistake of putting sorc at high spots instead of the last spots. Sorry but it doesn't work that way. I think it's a time for You to accept the reality.

This is getting hysterical. I'm not sure what is really motivating this, there's no way objectively a class with as few buffs as sorc has, in a game where buffs are king, will ever be as good as a class with many many, like NB. Let alone all the explanations that have been provided here in how sorc works in play. Or in all the other threads.

axi

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

I have no issue with discussing sorc changes. The thing is most of the people who discusses them want to bring sorcs kit on pair with others while also keeping streak untouched or barely changed which is a collosal mistake which has been proven numerous times already.

So overbuffing sorc is the only colossal mistake which can be made so far.

What about the rest which are already in the game ?

When it comes to collosal mistakes than yes. Overbuffing sorc while keeping streak relatively untouched is the biggest mistake possible PvP wise. Doesn't mean there were no other mistakes being made but we had this argument few times already. Fact that mistakes were made in the past on other classes does not justify overbuffing sorc. As for currently overbuffed features some deserve tuning down.

Let’s catch the lowest possible hanging fruit because it’s the easiest.

Your entire argument only holds value if everything else is ideally balanced and we are talking about overbuffing sorc. Right now as it stands mag sorc is the worst pvp class by a mile.

Also it’s just your opinion that sorc will be overbuffed without nerfing streak

I can also then state my opinion that we can start with blanket nerfs to nb by reducing all their damage by 30%. Because nb spammables like surprise attack hit harder than sorc ultimates.

I don't see how my argument would hold value only if everything else would be ideally balanced. You are creating some wierd ruleset to justify Your own agenda. Care to explain Your reasoning?

I wouldnt say magsorc is "the worst by a mile". It's mediocre for sure but still have its use and places where it can shine although some of the playstyles required for that may not please more classic magsorc enjoyers because many people will just say "I dont like to use this and that" or "i dont like to play that way".

This game history has proven that even minor tweaks made incorrectly to magsorc may bring complete mayhen just like it happened last time ZoS tried to buff sorc kit with "slight" change to a rune cage.

And no as I've said many times it's not just my opinion. It's a fact proven many times throughout games history. Accept it or not, but it's a fact. Streak is too far ahead of everything else making sorc always problematic to balance properly.

Well nerfs to nb You so desperatly seem to need actually happened around 3-4 years ago. Nb in PvP lost like 15-20% of its dmg at that time and was in a pretty bad shape to the point many people stopped to play it. Current buffs are result of reverting these changes and a try to finally make magblade decent at PvP because magblade outside of some gank memes was bottom tier for way longer than magsorc is at its current state. As for Your argumentation about supprise attack vs sorc ultimates someone could counter it with equally silly reasoning that sorc needs a dmg nerf because crystal frag when spammed hits harder than supprise attack. Comparing abilities in a vaccum is kinda pointless.

Reality is that mag sorc is still the worst pvp spec. Nb is the most busted pvp spec.

There is no fantasy world where mag sorc is busted and nb is weak. You are still complaining like that fantasy has become a reality

Want to bet or create a poll on whether there will be nb buffs or mag sorc buffs next patch ?
My vote will always be for the former and I am never wrong.

We can complain about sorc buffs when they actually happen

Reality is also that magblade was worst PvP spec for longer than magsorc and magsorc atleast share that spot with some other setups when magblade was just behind everyone at some point.

It's not fantasy. There was time in the game when magsorc was busted and stamblade was between mediocre and ok at best and magblade was useless at the same time. Tables have turned.

I was never complaining about sorc buffs. I just pointed out that streak is the thing that holds sorc back from getting much needed improvements.

It’s been a few years for mag sorc at the bottom tier. The last time mag sorc was decent was during pet sorc meta.

Reality is the present not the past. Talking about mag blade is the past.

I don’t see a problem buffing streak and the rest of the sorc toolkit.

NB receives buffs every patch. What’s wrong if sorc receives it once in a while.

Buffing other skills while nerfing streak is not really a buff.

No it hasn't been few years for magsorc to be a bottom tier. Excluding few first motnhs of the game and last few months magsorc was never bottom tier in PvP. And even during last few months there are certain areas in pvP where other classes can perform worse than magsorc

Here are for example tier lists made by a group of experienced PvP players who discussed PvP balance and then together were coming up with tier lists for a certain patch : 2020 greymoor https://imgbb.com/tmWYVH3 , 2021 flames of ambition https://imgbb.com/vQ8Lpnd , 2022 ascending tides https://imgbb.com/LZX4nd4 . As You can see during last 3 years sorc was never ranked as bottom class at any of PvP types. Quite frankly he was always in the upper half, scoring usually between S and B tier. Yes we can see drop in effectiveness with each patch and getting lower notes but magsorcs were far from "being a bottom tier for few years". Funnily enough nightblade which You praise so much as being always the best and always buffed was still ranked in bottom tier at certain PvP aspects like smallscale Cyrodill PvP.

You may not see a problem for buffing streak and rest of the kit because You've proven beyond any doubt a complete bias towards magsorc and that You don't want a balanced game You just want Your class to be broken once again.

I told this like 5 times already but it seems like I need to say it again. The reason why nightblade was getting buffs for last few patches is because at some point ZoS overnerfed that class which they later fixed with multiple buffs plus magblade was in dire need on buffs because as I already said that class was the weakest PvP setup for way longer than magsorc. Isn't that funny that sorc despite not reciving buffs or even reciving nerfs for so long still managed to be in upper half of tier list for while magblade needed few patches of strong buffs just to be ok right now? What's wrong with sorc reciving it once in a while? Well every time sorc recived noticable buffs it was becoming the new worst PvP meta.

Nerfing streak is the only way to give strong buffs to other parts of magsorc kit without completly breaking game balance. With no nerfs to streak sorc may get minor tweaks at best and to be honest minor tweaks is all that class needs atm.

Imagine posting class tiers created by a nb main. Not sure why I should even see it.

For solo pvp nightblade particularly the stamina one has always been strong in the history of the game. That’s the only pvp category I care about. I want sorc to be on equal footing or better.

Imagine not reading full list of people who made that class tier list. I've literally mentioned that fact in my previous post. There were many people who took part in making that list including devoted sorc mains like Malcolm. It's signed with Sniker's name only because discussions were happening on his discord and he was the person putting all information gathered together. There is literally list of most involved people at the bottom of each screen. I guess Your bias made You blind to that fact.

If You care only about solo PvP than Your bias is visible even more because while You are claiming that magsorc was the weakest for years, tier lists provided above put magsorc at S tier in years 2020 and 2021 for solo CP Cyrodill while stamblae was A+ which makes Your claims of sorc "being bottom tier for years" even more silly. Even if people in that list would made some mistakes You cannot claim that 25+ experienced PvP players made a mistake of putting sorc at high spots instead of the last spots. Sorry but it doesn't work that way. I think it's a time for You to accept the reality.

Ok so it happened on a nightblade discord lol

That sums it up perfectly !

Please don’t stop now. I want to hear more about it.

No. It happened partially on the discord that is created by a nb main player but everyone have acces to. People on official class discussion discord were also taking part in making that list. Like I've said already You can see list of most involved people at the bottom of each picture. You will find many non nb main players there including sorc main players.

I see You are seriously starting to lack any arguments here and Your post above proves it out perfectly. I think it's also time for You to stop because further discussion makes no sense since at this point You are effectively denying reality. I see no reason to continue my discussion with You since at this point You have proven Your bias and unwillingness to accept reality beyond any doubt.

PhoenixGrey

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

I have no issue with discussing sorc changes. The thing is most of the people who discusses them want to bring sorcs kit on pair with others while also keeping streak untouched or barely changed which is a collosal mistake which has been proven numerous times already.

So overbuffing sorc is the only colossal mistake which can be made so far.

What about the rest which are already in the game ?

When it comes to collosal mistakes than yes. Overbuffing sorc while keeping streak relatively untouched is the biggest mistake possible PvP wise. Doesn't mean there were no other mistakes being made but we had this argument few times already. Fact that mistakes were made in the past on other classes does not justify overbuffing sorc. As for currently overbuffed features some deserve tuning down.

Let’s catch the lowest possible hanging fruit because it’s the easiest.

Your entire argument only holds value if everything else is ideally balanced and we are talking about overbuffing sorc. Right now as it stands mag sorc is the worst pvp class by a mile.

Also it’s just your opinion that sorc will be overbuffed without nerfing streak

I can also then state my opinion that we can start with blanket nerfs to nb by reducing all their damage by 30%. Because nb spammables like surprise attack hit harder than sorc ultimates.

I don't see how my argument would hold value only if everything else would be ideally balanced. You are creating some wierd ruleset to justify Your own agenda. Care to explain Your reasoning?

I wouldnt say magsorc is "the worst by a mile". It's mediocre for sure but still have its use and places where it can shine although some of the playstyles required for that may not please more classic magsorc enjoyers because many people will just say "I dont like to use this and that" or "i dont like to play that way".

This game history has proven that even minor tweaks made incorrectly to magsorc may bring complete mayhen just like it happened last time ZoS tried to buff sorc kit with "slight" change to a rune cage.

And no as I've said many times it's not just my opinion. It's a fact proven many times throughout games history. Accept it or not, but it's a fact. Streak is too far ahead of everything else making sorc always problematic to balance properly.

Well nerfs to nb You so desperatly seem to need actually happened around 3-4 years ago. Nb in PvP lost like 15-20% of its dmg at that time and was in a pretty bad shape to the point many people stopped to play it. Current buffs are result of reverting these changes and a try to finally make magblade decent at PvP because magblade outside of some gank memes was bottom tier for way longer than magsorc is at its current state. As for Your argumentation about supprise attack vs sorc ultimates someone could counter it with equally silly reasoning that sorc needs a dmg nerf because crystal frag when spammed hits harder than supprise attack. Comparing abilities in a vaccum is kinda pointless.

Reality is that mag sorc is still the worst pvp spec. Nb is the most busted pvp spec.

There is no fantasy world where mag sorc is busted and nb is weak. You are still complaining like that fantasy has become a reality

Want to bet or create a poll on whether there will be nb buffs or mag sorc buffs next patch ?
My vote will always be for the former and I am never wrong.

We can complain about sorc buffs when they actually happen

Reality is also that magblade was worst PvP spec for longer than magsorc and magsorc atleast share that spot with some other setups when magblade was just behind everyone at some point.

It's not fantasy. There was time in the game when magsorc was busted and stamblade was between mediocre and ok at best and magblade was useless at the same time. Tables have turned.

I was never complaining about sorc buffs. I just pointed out that streak is the thing that holds sorc back from getting much needed improvements.

It’s been a few years for mag sorc at the bottom tier. The last time mag sorc was decent was during pet sorc meta.

Reality is the present not the past. Talking about mag blade is the past.

I don’t see a problem buffing streak and the rest of the sorc toolkit.

NB receives buffs every patch. What’s wrong if sorc receives it once in a while.

Buffing other skills while nerfing streak is not really a buff.

No it hasn't been few years for magsorc to be a bottom tier. Excluding few first motnhs of the game and last few months magsorc was never bottom tier in PvP. And even during last few months there are certain areas in pvP where other classes can perform worse than magsorc

Here are for example tier lists made by a group of experienced PvP players who discussed PvP balance and then together were coming up with tier lists for a certain patch : 2020 greymoor https://imgbb.com/tmWYVH3 , 2021 flames of ambition https://imgbb.com/vQ8Lpnd , 2022 ascending tides https://imgbb.com/LZX4nd4 . As You can see during last 3 years sorc was never ranked as bottom class at any of PvP types. Quite frankly he was always in the upper half, scoring usually between S and B tier. Yes we can see drop in effectiveness with each patch and getting lower notes but magsorcs were far from "being a bottom tier for few years". Funnily enough nightblade which You praise so much as being always the best and always buffed was still ranked in bottom tier at certain PvP aspects like smallscale Cyrodill PvP.

You may not see a problem for buffing streak and rest of the kit because You've proven beyond any doubt a complete bias towards magsorc and that You don't want a balanced game You just want Your class to be broken once again.

I told this like 5 times already but it seems like I need to say it again. The reason why nightblade was getting buffs for last few patches is because at some point ZoS overnerfed that class which they later fixed with multiple buffs plus magblade was in dire need on buffs because as I already said that class was the weakest PvP setup for way longer than magsorc. Isn't that funny that sorc despite not reciving buffs or even reciving nerfs for so long still managed to be in upper half of tier list for while magblade needed few patches of strong buffs just to be ok right now? What's wrong with sorc reciving it once in a while? Well every time sorc recived noticable buffs it was becoming the new worst PvP meta.

Nerfing streak is the only way to give strong buffs to other parts of magsorc kit without completly breaking game balance. With no nerfs to streak sorc may get minor tweaks at best and to be honest minor tweaks is all that class needs atm.

Imagine posting class tiers created by a nb main. Not sure why I should even see it.

For solo pvp nightblade particularly the stamina one has always been strong in the history of the game. That’s the only pvp category I care about. I want sorc to be on equal footing or better.

Imagine not reading full list of people who made that class tier list. I've literally mentioned that fact in my previous post. There were many people who took part in making that list including devoted sorc mains like Malcolm. It's signed with Sniker's name only because discussions were happening on his discord and he was the person putting all information gathered together. There is literally list of most involved people at the bottom of each screen. I guess Your bias made You blind to that fact.

If You care only about solo PvP than Your bias is visible even more because while You are claiming that magsorc was the weakest for years, tier lists provided above put magsorc at S tier in years 2020 and 2021 for solo CP Cyrodill while stamblae was A+ which makes Your claims of sorc "being bottom tier for years" even more silly. Even if people in that list would made some mistakes You cannot claim that 25+ experienced PvP players made a mistake of putting sorc at high spots instead of the last spots. Sorry but it doesn't work that way. I think it's a time for You to accept the reality.

Ok so it happened on a nightblade discord lol

That sums it up perfectly !

Please don’t stop now. I want to hear more about it.

No. It happened partially on the discord that is created by a nb main player but everyone have acces to. People on official class discussion discord were also taking part in making that list. Like I've said already You can see list of most involved people at the bottom of each picture. You will find many non nb main players there including sorc main players.

I see You are seriously starting to lack any arguments here and Your post above proves it out perfectly. I think it's also time for You to stop because further discussion makes no sense since at this point You are effectively denying reality. I see no reason to continue my discussion with You since at this point You have proven Your bias and unwillingness to accept reality beyond any doubt.

If zos implemented feedback from my suggestions, we would not have this thread.

Similarly a nb main taking suggestions in a discord does not mean it will show up in the tier list.

Like devs make the final decision on eso, the nb main made a decision on tier list

You are complaining about streak when a class is bottom tier

You do not want sorc buffs because streak is strong.

You assume that the game is so perfectly balanced that mag sorc buffs will break the game

And you are calling me biased ?

PhoenixGrey

Pelanora wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

I have no issue with discussing sorc changes. The thing is most of the people who discusses them want to bring sorcs kit on pair with others while also keeping streak untouched or barely changed which is a collosal mistake which has been proven numerous times already.

So overbuffing sorc is the only colossal mistake which can be made so far.

What about the rest which are already in the game ?

When it comes to collosal mistakes than yes. Overbuffing sorc while keeping streak relatively untouched is the biggest mistake possible PvP wise. Doesn't mean there were no other mistakes being made but we had this argument few times already. Fact that mistakes were made in the past on other classes does not justify overbuffing sorc. As for currently overbuffed features some deserve tuning down.

Let’s catch the lowest possible hanging fruit because it’s the easiest.

Your entire argument only holds value if everything else is ideally balanced and we are talking about overbuffing sorc. Right now as it stands mag sorc is the worst pvp class by a mile.

Also it’s just your opinion that sorc will be overbuffed without nerfing streak

I can also then state my opinion that we can start with blanket nerfs to nb by reducing all their damage by 30%. Because nb spammables like surprise attack hit harder than sorc ultimates.

I don't see how my argument would hold value only if everything else would be ideally balanced. You are creating some wierd ruleset to justify Your own agenda. Care to explain Your reasoning?

I wouldnt say magsorc is "the worst by a mile". It's mediocre for sure but still have its use and places where it can shine although some of the playstyles required for that may not please more classic magsorc enjoyers because many people will just say "I dont like to use this and that" or "i dont like to play that way".

This game history has proven that even minor tweaks made incorrectly to magsorc may bring complete mayhen just like it happened last time ZoS tried to buff sorc kit with "slight" change to a rune cage.

And no as I've said many times it's not just my opinion. It's a fact proven many times throughout games history. Accept it or not, but it's a fact. Streak is too far ahead of everything else making sorc always problematic to balance properly.

Well nerfs to nb You so desperatly seem to need actually happened around 3-4 years ago. Nb in PvP lost like 15-20% of its dmg at that time and was in a pretty bad shape to the point many people stopped to play it. Current buffs are result of reverting these changes and a try to finally make magblade decent at PvP because magblade outside of some gank memes was bottom tier for way longer than magsorc is at its current state. As for Your argumentation about supprise attack vs sorc ultimates someone could counter it with equally silly reasoning that sorc needs a dmg nerf because crystal frag when spammed hits harder than supprise attack. Comparing abilities in a vaccum is kinda pointless.

Reality is that mag sorc is still the worst pvp spec. Nb is the most busted pvp spec.

There is no fantasy world where mag sorc is busted and nb is weak. You are still complaining like that fantasy has become a reality

Want to bet or create a poll on whether there will be nb buffs or mag sorc buffs next patch ?
My vote will always be for the former and I am never wrong.

We can complain about sorc buffs when they actually happen

Reality is also that magblade was worst PvP spec for longer than magsorc and magsorc atleast share that spot with some other setups when magblade was just behind everyone at some point.

It's not fantasy. There was time in the game when magsorc was busted and stamblade was between mediocre and ok at best and magblade was useless at the same time. Tables have turned.

I was never complaining about sorc buffs. I just pointed out that streak is the thing that holds sorc back from getting much needed improvements.

It’s been a few years for mag sorc at the bottom tier. The last time mag sorc was decent was during pet sorc meta.

Reality is the present not the past. Talking about mag blade is the past.

I don’t see a problem buffing streak and the rest of the sorc toolkit.

NB receives buffs every patch. What’s wrong if sorc receives it once in a while.

Buffing other skills while nerfing streak is not really a buff.

No it hasn't been few years for magsorc to be a bottom tier. Excluding few first motnhs of the game and last few months magsorc was never bottom tier in PvP. And even during last few months there are certain areas in pvP where other classes can perform worse than magsorc

Here are for example tier lists made by a group of experienced PvP players who discussed PvP balance and then together were coming up with tier lists for a certain patch : 2020 greymoor https://imgbb.com/tmWYVH3 , 2021 flames of ambition https://imgbb.com/vQ8Lpnd , 2022 ascending tides https://imgbb.com/LZX4nd4 . As You can see during last 3 years sorc was never ranked as bottom class at any of PvP types. Quite frankly he was always in the upper half, scoring usually between S and B tier. Yes we can see drop in effectiveness with each patch and getting lower notes but magsorcs were far from "being a bottom tier for few years". Funnily enough nightblade which You praise so much as being always the best and always buffed was still ranked in bottom tier at certain PvP aspects like smallscale Cyrodill PvP.

You may not see a problem for buffing streak and rest of the kit because You've proven beyond any doubt a complete bias towards magsorc and that You don't want a balanced game You just want Your class to be broken once again.

I told this like 5 times already but it seems like I need to say it again. The reason why nightblade was getting buffs for last few patches is because at some point ZoS overnerfed that class which they later fixed with multiple buffs plus magblade was in dire need on buffs because as I already said that class was the weakest PvP setup for way longer than magsorc. Isn't that funny that sorc despite not reciving buffs or even reciving nerfs for so long still managed to be in upper half of tier list for while magblade needed few patches of strong buffs just to be ok right now? What's wrong with sorc reciving it once in a while? Well every time sorc recived noticable buffs it was becoming the new worst PvP meta.

Nerfing streak is the only way to give strong buffs to other parts of magsorc kit without completly breaking game balance. With no nerfs to streak sorc may get minor tweaks at best and to be honest minor tweaks is all that class needs atm.

Imagine posting class tiers created by a nb main. Not sure why I should even see it.

For solo pvp nightblade particularly the stamina one has always been strong in the history of the game. That’s the only pvp category I care about. I want sorc to be on equal footing or better.

Imagine not reading full list of people who made that class tier list. I've literally mentioned that fact in my previous post. There were many people who took part in making that list including devoted sorc mains like Malcolm. It's signed with Sniker's name only because discussions were happening on his discord and he was the person putting all information gathered together. There is literally list of most involved people at the bottom of each screen. I guess Your bias made You blind to that fact.

If You care only about solo PvP than Your bias is visible even more because while You are claiming that magsorc was the weakest for years, tier lists provided above put magsorc at S tier in years 2020 and 2021 for solo CP Cyrodill while stamblae was A+ which makes Your claims of sorc "being bottom tier for years" even more silly. Even if people in that list would made some mistakes You cannot claim that 25+ experienced PvP players made a mistake of putting sorc at high spots instead of the last spots. Sorry but it doesn't work that way. I think it's a time for You to accept the reality.

This is getting hysterical. I'm not sure what is really motivating this, there's no way objectively a class with as few buffs as sorc has, in a game where buffs are king, will ever be as good as a class with many many, like NB. Let alone all the explanations that have been provided here in how sorc works in play. Or in all the other threads.

OP’s motivation is the rest of the game is perfectly balanced and some sorc buffs are going to break the game for everyone.

So the solution presented by OP is to nerf streak and if I disagree then I m supposedly biased

StaticWave

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I was also running pure stamsorc alongside magsorc quite a lot up until about a year ago (I have 2 of each class, stam and mag versions and ran both versions of sorc a lot over the years with more time on my mag (it being my first and main)), so it's not like I have never played stamsorc.

It has always felt stronger than magsorc due to its access to the stronger weapons, their abilities and passives and just how much stronger on average stamina has been over magicka for the majority of the past few years, especially for damage and mitigation up until they did the hybridisation changes.

Stamsorc has always lacked a burst heal outside of rally, but stamsorc has also always had the better and more reliable self HoT option in vigor (outside of U33 where radiating was as strong as vigor after it got buffed).

Also bow/bow sorc has always been strong (even without the overtuned U34 crystal weapon and broken savage werewolf builds) The issue was almost nobody bothered to run it since the other classes were always getting buffs and becoming the FOTM classes. Sure stamsorc never had the staying power of the old shield stacking magsorcs, but it had far more mobility, higher damage and a freer time avoiding damage than magsorc had, so it always had its strengths over magsorc, especially after the still unfinished max stats/damage rework that gutted magsorcs main defensive options in shields.

Granted, it's not leagues ahead, but stamsorc has always had plenty of options over magsorc that has almost always kept it above magsorc, at least for pvp.

Hybrid everything is stronger than pure stam/mag counterparts currently. That's just how they've developed this game over the past year with hybridization. There are still stam and mag focused hybrid builds though that lean more into 1 or the other stat and I still find stam leaning hybrid sorc builds much stronger than mag leaning hybrid sorc builds. Mostly because of the access to the stamina defensive options that allow the class to stay alive longer to deal its damage.

You played stamsorc but I can guarantee you that you never played it religiously like I did. 5 years of literally tens of thousands of duels and over 4k hours of cyrodiil PvP and BG combined against new players, average players, and some of the best players on PCNA for me to come to the conclusion that stamsorc has always been, on average, inferior to magsorc.

I could count on my hands the amount of stamsorcs that wasn't a bombard spammer in an organized group. That 's how bad the class was except for several patches where it could abuse proc sets. Its strength largely relied on sets and when those got nerfed so did it. Most people who tried the class gave up and complained to me that it's too squishy. I mean how can I blame them? The class literally has Vigor, Dark Deal, and Surge, that's it. If you play it correctly aka kite a lot, then you can survive but trying to sit and face tank several people like some magsorcs do? Not a chance. The moment you drop to 50% HP you're already dead. There's no burst heal to save you. That's why in every 1vX video I've done, even in a brawler build, I try to kite as much as possible and always move fast. I wouldn't need to if I could sit and heal to full with 1 button.

The benefit of more weapon skills mean nothing because most of the weapon abilities have been severely nerfed. Why would I take Dizzying Swing over Curse or Frag? Even hard casting Frag is better than spamming Dizzying Swing, and I've done it on my MELEE hybrid sorc... Why would you use Bow/Bow sorc when magsorc exists? Bow/Bow sorc without proc sets is literally just a bombard spammer build and it has no use outside of that. I would know because I played it. I've played just about every build for the class and I'm pretty sure it's not as strong as people made it out to be. I've also fought those bow/bow builds with double proc sets as a melee stamsorc in stat sets and I didn't feel much pressure.

Options don't mean much when they are equally bad lol..

Pelanora

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

I have no issue with discussing sorc changes. The thing is most of the people who discusses them want to bring sorcs kit on pair with others while also keeping streak untouched or barely changed which is a collosal mistake which has been proven numerous times already.

So overbuffing sorc is the only colossal mistake which can be made so far.

What about the rest which are already in the game ?

When it comes to collosal mistakes than yes. Overbuffing sorc while keeping streak relatively untouched is the biggest mistake possible PvP wise. Doesn't mean there were no other mistakes being made but we had this argument few times already. Fact that mistakes were made in the past on other classes does not justify overbuffing sorc. As for currently overbuffed features some deserve tuning down.

Let’s catch the lowest possible hanging fruit because it’s the easiest.

Your entire argument only holds value if everything else is ideally balanced and we are talking about overbuffing sorc. Right now as it stands mag sorc is the worst pvp class by a mile.

Also it’s just your opinion that sorc will be overbuffed without nerfing streak

I can also then state my opinion that we can start with blanket nerfs to nb by reducing all their damage by 30%. Because nb spammables like surprise attack hit harder than sorc ultimates.

I don't see how my argument would hold value only if everything else would be ideally balanced. You are creating some wierd ruleset to justify Your own agenda. Care to explain Your reasoning?

I wouldnt say magsorc is "the worst by a mile". It's mediocre for sure but still have its use and places where it can shine although some of the playstyles required for that may not please more classic magsorc enjoyers because many people will just say "I dont like to use this and that" or "i dont like to play that way".

This game history has proven that even minor tweaks made incorrectly to magsorc may bring complete mayhen just like it happened last time ZoS tried to buff sorc kit with "slight" change to a rune cage.

And no as I've said many times it's not just my opinion. It's a fact proven many times throughout games history. Accept it or not, but it's a fact. Streak is too far ahead of everything else making sorc always problematic to balance properly.

Well nerfs to nb You so desperatly seem to need actually happened around 3-4 years ago. Nb in PvP lost like 15-20% of its dmg at that time and was in a pretty bad shape to the point many people stopped to play it. Current buffs are result of reverting these changes and a try to finally make magblade decent at PvP because magblade outside of some gank memes was bottom tier for way longer than magsorc is at its current state. As for Your argumentation about supprise attack vs sorc ultimates someone could counter it with equally silly reasoning that sorc needs a dmg nerf because crystal frag when spammed hits harder than supprise attack. Comparing abilities in a vaccum is kinda pointless.

Reality is that mag sorc is still the worst pvp spec. Nb is the most busted pvp spec.

There is no fantasy world where mag sorc is busted and nb is weak. You are still complaining like that fantasy has become a reality

Want to bet or create a poll on whether there will be nb buffs or mag sorc buffs next patch ?
My vote will always be for the former and I am never wrong.

We can complain about sorc buffs when they actually happen

Reality is also that magblade was worst PvP spec for longer than magsorc and magsorc atleast share that spot with some other setups when magblade was just behind everyone at some point.

It's not fantasy. There was time in the game when magsorc was busted and stamblade was between mediocre and ok at best and magblade was useless at the same time. Tables have turned.

I was never complaining about sorc buffs. I just pointed out that streak is the thing that holds sorc back from getting much needed improvements.

It’s been a few years for mag sorc at the bottom tier. The last time mag sorc was decent was during pet sorc meta.

Reality is the present not the past. Talking about mag blade is the past.

I don’t see a problem buffing streak and the rest of the sorc toolkit.

NB receives buffs every patch. What’s wrong if sorc receives it once in a while.

Buffing other skills while nerfing streak is not really a buff.

No it hasn't been few years for magsorc to be a bottom tier. Excluding few first motnhs of the game and last few months magsorc was never bottom tier in PvP. And even during last few months there are certain areas in pvP where other classes can perform worse than magsorc

Here are for example tier lists made by a group of experienced PvP players who discussed PvP balance and then together were coming up with tier lists for a certain patch : 2020 greymoor https://imgbb.com/tmWYVH3 , 2021 flames of ambition https://imgbb.com/vQ8Lpnd , 2022 ascending tides https://imgbb.com/LZX4nd4 . As You can see during last 3 years sorc was never ranked as bottom class at any of PvP types. Quite frankly he was always in the upper half, scoring usually between S and B tier. Yes we can see drop in effectiveness with each patch and getting lower notes but magsorcs were far from "being a bottom tier for few years". Funnily enough nightblade which You praise so much as being always the best and always buffed was still ranked in bottom tier at certain PvP aspects like smallscale Cyrodill PvP.

You may not see a problem for buffing streak and rest of the kit because You've proven beyond any doubt a complete bias towards magsorc and that You don't want a balanced game You just want Your class to be broken once again.

I told this like 5 times already but it seems like I need to say it again. The reason why nightblade was getting buffs for last few patches is because at some point ZoS overnerfed that class which they later fixed with multiple buffs plus magblade was in dire need on buffs because as I already said that class was the weakest PvP setup for way longer than magsorc. Isn't that funny that sorc despite not reciving buffs or even reciving nerfs for so long still managed to be in upper half of tier list for while magblade needed few patches of strong buffs just to be ok right now? What's wrong with sorc reciving it once in a while? Well every time sorc recived noticable buffs it was becoming the new worst PvP meta.

Nerfing streak is the only way to give strong buffs to other parts of magsorc kit without completly breaking game balance. With no nerfs to streak sorc may get minor tweaks at best and to be honest minor tweaks is all that class needs atm.

Imagine posting class tiers created by a nb main. Not sure why I should even see it.

For solo pvp nightblade particularly the stamina one has always been strong in the history of the game. That’s the only pvp category I care about. I want sorc to be on equal footing or better.

Imagine not reading full list of people who made that class tier list. I've literally mentioned that fact in my previous post. There were many people who took part in making that list including devoted sorc mains like Malcolm. It's signed with Sniker's name only because discussions were happening on his discord and he was the person putting all information gathered together. There is literally list of most involved people at the bottom of each screen. I guess Your bias made You blind to that fact.

If You care only about solo PvP than Your bias is visible even more because while You are claiming that magsorc was the weakest for years, tier lists provided above put magsorc at S tier in years 2020 and 2021 for solo CP Cyrodill while stamblae was A+ which makes Your claims of sorc "being bottom tier for years" even more silly. Even if people in that list would made some mistakes You cannot claim that 25+ experienced PvP players made a mistake of putting sorc at high spots instead of the last spots. Sorry but it doesn't work that way. I think it's a time for You to accept the reality.

This is getting hysterical. I'm not sure what is really motivating this, there's no way objectively a class with as few buffs as sorc has, in a game where buffs are king, will ever be as good as a class with many many, like NB. Let alone all the explanations that have been provided here in how sorc works in play. Or in all the other threads.

OP’s motivation is the rest of the game is perfectly balanced and some sorc buffs are going to break the game for everyone.

So the solution presented by OP is to nerf streak and if I disagree then I m supposedly biased

Streak, the skill where you spend a second zapping, THEN move (what the fark is the use of THAT), too late for any real danger, and then move not very far, ending up facing the wrong way around....it should be IMPROVED not nerfed.

Pelanora

"stamsorc has always been, on average, inferior to magsorc"

OK let's not split the consensus here, all sorc needs attention, lets not mag vs stam it..... that's how the [snip] get us lol

[edited for profanity bypass]

StaticWave

Pelanora wrote: »

"stamsorc has always been, on average, inferior to magsorc"

OK let's not split the consensus here, all sorc needs attention, lets not mag vs stam it..... that's how the [snip] get us lol

Yes, but this entire thread is about magsorc lol... I'm like the only person who's advocating for stamsorc buffs. In fact, every sorc buff thread is about mag.

[edited to remove quote]

StaticWave

Not directing at the OP since he did raise buff suggestions for stamsorc, albeit not as in depth and probably a byproduct of his main goal which is to buff magsorc. I was directing at the replies in the thread. Most of them are about magsorc and it's saddening to see how few stamsorcs are left.

Pelanora

StaticWave wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

"stamsorc has always been, on average, inferior to magsorc"

OK let's not split the consensus here, all sorc needs attention, lets not mag vs stam it..... that's how the [snip] get us lol

Yes, but this entire thread is about magsorc lol... I'm like the only person who's advocating for stamsorc buffs. In fact, every sorc buff thread is about mag.

Turtle does fight tirelessly for magsorc, but stamsorc needs the love too. Pretty disheartening to choose a class offered by zos only to discover it's not REALLY offered by zos, because they've neglected it for so long.
'O and we have this room to rent, sorry there's not much of a roof, oh or a floor, but it's 400 a night thanks very much'

[edited to remove quote]

PhoenixGrey

Pelanora wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

I have no issue with discussing sorc changes. The thing is most of the people who discusses them want to bring sorcs kit on pair with others while also keeping streak untouched or barely changed which is a collosal mistake which has been proven numerous times already.

So overbuffing sorc is the only colossal mistake which can be made so far.

What about the rest which are already in the game ?

When it comes to collosal mistakes than yes. Overbuffing sorc while keeping streak relatively untouched is the biggest mistake possible PvP wise. Doesn't mean there were no other mistakes being made but we had this argument few times already. Fact that mistakes were made in the past on other classes does not justify overbuffing sorc. As for currently overbuffed features some deserve tuning down.

Let’s catch the lowest possible hanging fruit because it’s the easiest.

Your entire argument only holds value if everything else is ideally balanced and we are talking about overbuffing sorc. Right now as it stands mag sorc is the worst pvp class by a mile.

Also it’s just your opinion that sorc will be overbuffed without nerfing streak

I can also then state my opinion that we can start with blanket nerfs to nb by reducing all their damage by 30%. Because nb spammables like surprise attack hit harder than sorc ultimates.

I don't see how my argument would hold value only if everything else would be ideally balanced. You are creating some wierd ruleset to justify Your own agenda. Care to explain Your reasoning?

I wouldnt say magsorc is "the worst by a mile". It's mediocre for sure but still have its use and places where it can shine although some of the playstyles required for that may not please more classic magsorc enjoyers because many people will just say "I dont like to use this and that" or "i dont like to play that way".

This game history has proven that even minor tweaks made incorrectly to magsorc may bring complete mayhen just like it happened last time ZoS tried to buff sorc kit with "slight" change to a rune cage.

And no as I've said many times it's not just my opinion. It's a fact proven many times throughout games history. Accept it or not, but it's a fact. Streak is too far ahead of everything else making sorc always problematic to balance properly.

Well nerfs to nb You so desperatly seem to need actually happened around 3-4 years ago. Nb in PvP lost like 15-20% of its dmg at that time and was in a pretty bad shape to the point many people stopped to play it. Current buffs are result of reverting these changes and a try to finally make magblade decent at PvP because magblade outside of some gank memes was bottom tier for way longer than magsorc is at its current state. As for Your argumentation about supprise attack vs sorc ultimates someone could counter it with equally silly reasoning that sorc needs a dmg nerf because crystal frag when spammed hits harder than supprise attack. Comparing abilities in a vaccum is kinda pointless.

Reality is that mag sorc is still the worst pvp spec. Nb is the most busted pvp spec.

There is no fantasy world where mag sorc is busted and nb is weak. You are still complaining like that fantasy has become a reality

Want to bet or create a poll on whether there will be nb buffs or mag sorc buffs next patch ?
My vote will always be for the former and I am never wrong.

We can complain about sorc buffs when they actually happen

Reality is also that magblade was worst PvP spec for longer than magsorc and magsorc atleast share that spot with some other setups when magblade was just behind everyone at some point.

It's not fantasy. There was time in the game when magsorc was busted and stamblade was between mediocre and ok at best and magblade was useless at the same time. Tables have turned.

I was never complaining about sorc buffs. I just pointed out that streak is the thing that holds sorc back from getting much needed improvements.

It’s been a few years for mag sorc at the bottom tier. The last time mag sorc was decent was during pet sorc meta.

Reality is the present not the past. Talking about mag blade is the past.

I don’t see a problem buffing streak and the rest of the sorc toolkit.

NB receives buffs every patch. What’s wrong if sorc receives it once in a while.

Buffing other skills while nerfing streak is not really a buff.

No it hasn't been few years for magsorc to be a bottom tier. Excluding few first motnhs of the game and last few months magsorc was never bottom tier in PvP. And even during last few months there are certain areas in pvP where other classes can perform worse than magsorc

Here are for example tier lists made by a group of experienced PvP players who discussed PvP balance and then together were coming up with tier lists for a certain patch : 2020 greymoor https://imgbb.com/tmWYVH3 , 2021 flames of ambition https://imgbb.com/vQ8Lpnd , 2022 ascending tides https://imgbb.com/LZX4nd4 . As You can see during last 3 years sorc was never ranked as bottom class at any of PvP types. Quite frankly he was always in the upper half, scoring usually between S and B tier. Yes we can see drop in effectiveness with each patch and getting lower notes but magsorcs were far from "being a bottom tier for few years". Funnily enough nightblade which You praise so much as being always the best and always buffed was still ranked in bottom tier at certain PvP aspects like smallscale Cyrodill PvP.

You may not see a problem for buffing streak and rest of the kit because You've proven beyond any doubt a complete bias towards magsorc and that You don't want a balanced game You just want Your class to be broken once again.

I told this like 5 times already but it seems like I need to say it again. The reason why nightblade was getting buffs for last few patches is because at some point ZoS overnerfed that class which they later fixed with multiple buffs plus magblade was in dire need on buffs because as I already said that class was the weakest PvP setup for way longer than magsorc. Isn't that funny that sorc despite not reciving buffs or even reciving nerfs for so long still managed to be in upper half of tier list for while magblade needed few patches of strong buffs just to be ok right now? What's wrong with sorc reciving it once in a while? Well every time sorc recived noticable buffs it was becoming the new worst PvP meta.

Nerfing streak is the only way to give strong buffs to other parts of magsorc kit without completly breaking game balance. With no nerfs to streak sorc may get minor tweaks at best and to be honest minor tweaks is all that class needs atm.

Imagine posting class tiers created by a nb main. Not sure why I should even see it.

For solo pvp nightblade particularly the stamina one has always been strong in the history of the game. That’s the only pvp category I care about. I want sorc to be on equal footing or better.

Imagine not reading full list of people who made that class tier list. I've literally mentioned that fact in my previous post. There were many people who took part in making that list including devoted sorc mains like Malcolm. It's signed with Sniker's name only because discussions were happening on his discord and he was the person putting all information gathered together. There is literally list of most involved people at the bottom of each screen. I guess Your bias made You blind to that fact.

If You care only about solo PvP than Your bias is visible even more because while You are claiming that magsorc was the weakest for years, tier lists provided above put magsorc at S tier in years 2020 and 2021 for solo CP Cyrodill while stamblae was A+ which makes Your claims of sorc "being bottom tier for years" even more silly. Even if people in that list would made some mistakes You cannot claim that 25+ experienced PvP players made a mistake of putting sorc at high spots instead of the last spots. Sorry but it doesn't work that way. I think it's a time for You to accept the reality.

This is getting hysterical. I'm not sure what is really motivating this, there's no way objectively a class with as few buffs as sorc has, in a game where buffs are king, will ever be as good as a class with many many, like NB. Let alone all the explanations that have been provided here in how sorc works in play. Or in all the other threads.

OP’s motivation is the rest of the game is perfectly balanced and some sorc buffs are going to break the game for everyone.

So the solution presented by OP is to nerf streak and if I disagree then I m supposedly biased

Streak, the skill where you spend a second zapping, THEN move (what the fark is the use of THAT), too late for any real danger, and then move not very far, ending up facing the wrong way around....it should be IMPROVED not nerfed.

I agree. Streak shouldn’t have a stacking cost

I remember there used to be no stacking cost before and it didn’t break the game or something

Everything stam is faster these days so I don’t see why it can’t go back to how it was before

PhoenixGrey

StaticWave wrote: »

Not directing at the OP since he did raise buff suggestions for stamsorc, albeit not as in depth and probably a byproduct of his main goal which is to buff magsorc. I was directing at the replies in the thread. Most of them are about magsorc and it's saddening to see how few stamsorcs are left.

That’s why crystal weapon didn’t deserve a nerf.

The proc sets are always the problem. It’s usually never the skill.

RemoryAzure

StaticWave wrote: »

Not directing at the OP since he did raise buff suggestions for stamsorc, albeit not as in depth and probably a byproduct of his main goal which is to buff magsorc. I was directing at the replies in the thread. Most of them are about magsorc and it's saddening to see how few stamsorcs are left.

well, according to RealGodzilla, one of the biggest eso content creators, magsorc is the worst class in the game, while stamsorc is in the lower part of A-tier, which is still better than classic (ranged) magblade sitting in B, and i can agree with that (ranged magblade has extreme mana consumption, low damage and high cost spammable, which makes him always, like really 95% of the time, sitting at 0 mana with 3k+ regen (and to achieve this regen u also sacrifice even more damage), unable to do anything freely unlike op (as every other melee build in the game) stam/hybrid nb). from this perspective, rangeblade deserves more buffs than stamsorc, while magsorc is really in a bad state

AdamLAD

People forget that ranged damage has travel times and is alot more telegraphed than melee abilities and thus easily blocked or dodged in comparison to melee. So not only do ranged suffer from less damage significantly, they also have to suffer damage being blocked easier and completely mitigated by roll dodge

Jsmalls

I second that I would like the reliability of damage to be considered.

I've always liked the delayed aspect of Mag Sorc burst, and it's always what I focus on for my personal builds. You know how satisfying it is to line up a Curse, Crushing Weapon, OL light attack, C frag and Streak into a single global cool down? I just wish it was rewarded more because I can get that combo off and still watch my opponent survive it. But that's a problem with the tank/health meta which effects everyone.

My pain point for Mag Sorc is usually the avoidability of their kit. Because it's delayed burst missing any portion of the burst renders it a failure, which needs to be possible for balance. But when I throw a c frag after you've stood up from dodge rolling cuz I anticipated it and waited.... And it still misses. That hurts. Projectiles in general feel unreliable. Our execute is also rarely worth the slot other than group play. Once upon a time before the health meta I used this as a "spammable" as a damage filler between setting up my burst. Now without the extra damage and debuff from a spammable like Crushing Weapon I can't even hope to drop their health to the incredibly low 20% execute range. And they'd probably still survive cuz 20% of 35k is 7k and it'll probably do 6k damage lmao.

I'd like to see some unique additions to the ward options. Maybe the smaller one can provide major protection, and the stronger one can have a power absorption mechanic, where as it is depleted it increases your damage for X seconds, either in the form of a spell/weapon damage increase or a set bonus. Ward as a defense mechanic is pretty lack luster at the moment. Needs a tune up.

Also as much as it doesn't make sense make crystal frag and curse lightning damage... I hate having half of my kit lightning and the other half magic damage.

StaticWave

RemoryAzure wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Not directing at the OP since he did raise buff suggestions for stamsorc, albeit not as in depth and probably a byproduct of his main goal which is to buff magsorc. I was directing at the replies in the thread. Most of them are about magsorc and it's saddening to see how few stamsorcs are left.

well, according to RealGodzilla, one of the biggest eso content creators, magsorc is the worst class in the game, while stamsorc is in the lower part of A-tier, which is still better than classic (ranged) magblade sitting in B, and i can agree with that (ranged magblade has extreme mana consumption, low damage and high cost spammable, which makes him always, like really 95% of the time, sitting at 0 mana with 3k+ regen (and to achieve this regen u also sacrifice even more damage), unable to do anything freely unlike op (as every other melee build in the game) stam/hybrid nb). from this perspective, rangeblade deserves more buffs than stamsorc, while magsorc is really in a bad state

Lol being a big content creator doesn’t mean much. Some of the best ESO pvpers I know on PC Na don’t even have more than 300 subs on youtube. React for example is a very good player and is quite active on the forums but he would agree with me that pure melee stamsorc is no where near the A-tier. It maybe slightly stronger than pure rangeblade but they are both at the bottom.

Melee stamsorc is not in a good state, don’t confuse that with ranged stamsorc. That specific spec is just a stam version of magsorc. Most magsorcs who transitioned to stamsorc always went that route because it’s easier and fits their ranged playstyle. Go melee and you will know the struggle.

StaticWave

AdamLAD wrote: »

People forget that ranged damage has travel times and is alot more telegraphed than melee abilities and thus easily blocked or dodged in comparison to melee. So not only do ranged suffer from less damage significantly, they also have to suffer damage being blocked easier and completely mitigated by roll dodge

And melee damage suffers from kiting. I have 200% speed on stamsorc and I’m a pain in the a** when dueling melee players. Most melee abilities just cancel halfway if you move out of range and it’s incredibly frustrating. That’s only 1 issue of of many about melee lol

Pelanora

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StaticWave wrote: »

RemoryAzure wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Not directing at the OP since he did raise buff suggestions for stamsorc, albeit not as in depth and probably a byproduct of his main goal which is to buff magsorc. I was directing at the replies in the thread. Most of them are about magsorc and it's saddening to see how few stamsorcs are left.

well, according to RealGodzilla, one of the biggest eso content creators, magsorc is the worst class in the game, while stamsorc is in the lower part of A-tier, which is still better than classic (ranged) magblade sitting in B, and i can agree with that (ranged magblade has extreme mana consumption, low damage and high cost spammable, which makes him always, like really 95% of the time, sitting at 0 mana with 3k+ regen (and to achieve this regen u also sacrifice even more damage), unable to do anything freely unlike op (as every other melee build in the game) stam/hybrid nb). from this perspective, rangeblade deserves more buffs than stamsorc, while magsorc is really in a bad state

Lol being a big content creator doesn’t mean much. Some of the best ESO pvpers I know on PC Na don’t even have more than 300 subs on youtube. React for example is a very good player and is quite active on the forums but he would agree with me that pure melee stamsorc is no where near the A-tier.

Yea can confirm, I have heard React say that in his stream.