Sorc Pain Points and ideas on buffs, changes and reworks to skills to bring the class up to par.

StaticWave

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

No, balance discussions happens to all classes. Even right now there are active threads discuissing balance of classes other than sorc. There is for example thread about templar underperforming after recent patch or about corrosive armor being too strong. With enough time You would find threads talking about every class from last 30 days.

I do agree that there will always be balance threads about every single class and there definitely are quite a few about templar at the moment.

The main issue with this argument though is that sorcerer is the only class that consistently attracts the "<insert class here> will be too op with any buffs at all" comments on threads about the class's balance, meanwhile the threads for other classes barely get a mention of that despite the results of the various DK, NB, Plar and Warden overbuffs over the past 2 years.

All of the other classes are only ever complained about after they get their buffs implemented, never before they get buffs even announced, let alone implemented, unlike sorcs who consistently get complaints of "being OP" when even the slightest mention of buffs comes up, even when the class is the weakest class in the game by a large margin.

It's this attitude of "sorc is always OP that we must all be concerned if the class gets any buffs" is why the class is so lackluster at the moment. Especially when combined with the fact that the pets create such a split between very strong for pve, but borderline useless for pvp.

Examples of the effects this attitude has had on the class in the past, are as follows:

- Rework shields to scale with damage like healing does, nope too OP for the forum commenters, so its scrapped and shields are left on the old max mag formula (they even tried to give shields a cast time in the past too....)

- give sorc a reliable instant cast heal that every other class (even nb) already has, nope too OP for the forum commenters, so it's never considered and sorcs are the only remaining class with harsh downsides and clunky, or non synergistic mechanics on all of their heals

- sorc damage is very unreliable without a proper reliable targeted stun (e.g. similar to javelin or fossilize), nope too OP for the forum commenters, as a result rune cage/defensive rune is never allowed to be considered for buffs/reworks despite being completely useless, frags travel speed got nerfed (made slower), frags proc chance also reduced because "stam can use it now" and the counters to the class offense (dodge, etc) were made cheaper to the point of being essentially free.

- crystal weapon still not strong enough to compete with other stamina spammables, gets buffed, then immediately nerfed into a worse spot than it was originally in the following patch due to being combined with a bugged armor set with the bugged armor set doing the heavy lifting of carrying that build. The rest of the class's kit that was being used for niche, unique or fun builds also receives harsh nerfs.

resulted in the current bad state of the class now and despite clearly needing buffing, apparently its not allowed to even be considered because the class will become too OP.

Meanwhile

Magblade was in a bad spot, but stamblade was in a good spot, nightblade (both mag and stam) gets given
- +10% unique damage increase or guaranteed crit on spammable (which stacks with their existing unique +20% damage increase from incap)
- both major + minor versions for expedition, courage, cowardice and maim
- reliable burst heal that matches tank class heals and provides mending
- 2 very strong HoT abilities
- delayed burst that can almost 1 shot most enemies on its own that also has a full heal that ignores battle spirit on kill among other strong buffs
- got to better time its stun from stealth to allow for better weaving into the combo to burst enemies down more reliably
On top of all this
- it got to keep both invis and shade at full power (which have been just as problematic as streak in pvp for years now)
- and no nerfs to the other ways to play the class (see bowblade, brawlblade, ganker, etc) that were already in a good spot and not in need of a buff

Then once the buffs went through and the class was proven to be obviously OP (especially the still currently S-tier hybrid blade), the only nerf it got was 1 of its HoTs got reduced to a more balanced value. The rest of the clearly overtuned kit didnt get adjusted for 2 patches in a row now and unlikely to be changed for a while yet.

There were no comments (that I saw) before the NB buffs got released on the PTS about "NB will be OP if given any buffs". In fact, everyone was cheering on for buffs to magblade, despite stamblade being in a good spot still and invis and shade being just as OP/problematic as streak in pvp.
Can you see the similarities for blade and sorc here and why this issue is so contentious? mag sucks, stam good, but the difference, it's ok (and encouraged) for nb to receive buffs, but it's not ok (must be careful) for sorc to receive buffs.

Sorcs don't need to be made as OP as nb was, that's obvious. But at least allow magsorc players the opportunity to dream big on their theoretical and suggested buffs without being harassed about the class "being OP" like the opportunity that was given to blades, dks and magden players in the past and that plar players are being afforded currently.

That way the class might actually get something well thought out and playable that lasts longer than 1 patch and can be fine tuned over the course of the PTS instead of occasionally receiving rushed token gestures that get immediately taken away 1 patch later because of an unintended interaction or a clearly overtuned/bugged set or mythic.

To be fair, Crystal Weapon was overbuffed. The current version is still stronger than its original, but less broken. Shields scaling with spell damage is needed, but let's be honest here - a max mag build can already reach 12-13k shields. If the scaling isn't carefully monitored, we could see a 15-16k hardened ward in a max damage build. That's also broken especially considering how hybridization allows for sorc to use Vigor.

Even though I'm speaking from a stamsorc perspective, I believe it still applies to magsorc. Sorc buffs need to be done carefully or the class will literally become broken. The only reason you have a hard time killing other classes is because their defense have been buffed through the roof over the years. Take your magsorc against a stamsorc - a class that hasn't been buffed defensively, and you'll see how easy it is to kill one. Sorc offense is that good despite receiving little buffs. Defensively, sorc needs to be carefully buffed as well. When I play my stamsorc with just Vigor/Dark Deal/Surge/Streak, I'm extremely hard to kill even as a bruiser. The way you use Streak and movement determines how well you live. That's just how the class is played. A stamsorc with a true burst heal spammable and Streak will be unstoppable. If you give it a burst heal, you're going to have to remove something and that may cost its identity. Same logic applies to magsorc. A magsorc can streak much more often than a stamsorc. If it also has a burst heal, it's going to be pretty much near impossible to kill unless you run a super cancer build. But then again, cancer builds kill everything, so that's not a valid argument to make.

Pelanora

"Sorc buffs need to be done carefully or the class will literally become broken"

This is surely true of every class, and set and mythic for that matter. I can't see why it is uniquely true for sorc.

Turtle_Bot

I'll repeat the important part of my comment because my comment was very long so it likely got missed.

There were no comments (that I saw) before the NB buffs got released on the PTS about "NB will be OP if given any buffs". In fact, everyone was cheering on for buffs to magblade, despite stamblade being in a good spot still and invis and shade being just as OP/problematic as streak in pvp.
Can you see the similarities for blade and sorc here and why this issue is so contentious? mag sucks, stam good, but the difference, it's ok (and encouraged) for nb to receive buffs, but it's not ok (must be careful) for sorc to receive buffs.

Sorcs don't need to be made as OP as nb was, that's obvious. But at least allow magsorc players the opportunity to dream big on their theoretical and suggested buffs without being harassed about the class "being OP" like the opportunity that was given to blades, dks and magden players in the past and that plar players are being afforded currently.

That way the class might actually get something well thought out and playable that lasts longer than 1 patch and can be fine tuned over the course of the PTS instead of occasionally receiving rushed token gestures that get immediately taken away 1 patch later because of an unintended interaction or a clearly overtuned/bugged set or mythic.

This is why I hate this argument that we need to be careful about buffing sorcerer so much. Sorcerer is the only class that gets this stupid argument brought up every time anyone wants even the smallest of buffs to the class.

NB used to be in the exact same position sorcerer currently is in. Mag was pathetically weak, stamina was in a good spot, NB also had 2 utility abilities (invis + shade) to sorcerers 1 utility ability (streak) that create huge balance issues in pvp. Yet, up until the NB buffs got released on the PTS and everyone could see what those buffs actually were, there were zero complaints or comments about needing to be careful when buffing NB (magnb in particular) because stamnb will become OP, in fact everyone was calling for the class to get buffs.

So, again, why must sorc be treated differently. Why must sorc be discriminated against when it comes to be allowed to bring up options, choices and suggestions for buffs, when players from every other class are allowed to dream big for needed buffs when a class is performing poorly without being continuously harassed about "<insert class here> will be OP if buffed" comments.

The threads on buffing plars, no comments that are just "can't buff the class or it will be too op" despite beam being one of the most broken executes in the game right now as well as multiple other skills being very strong for what they provide.
There's even threads talking about buffs/options/changes for necros and once again, lo and behold, not a single comment saying the class will be OP if it receives buffs, despite necro bombers being very strong zerg busters even after the last dark convergance nerfs.
All of these threads contain comments that at most will provide suggestions for moving some of the power out of some abilities to spread it to other abilities and bring them up to par, but no comments yet that outright say we can't buff the class because it will become OP. You would think those 2 classes in particular would be prime targets for that kind of commentary since last patch the PotL + javelin + beam combo was melting players with no counter play and necro bombers have been around causing issues in PvP ever since dark convergence was released.

If the scaling isn't carefully monitored, we could see a 15-16k hardened ward in a max damage build. That's also broken especially considering how hybridization allows for sorc to use Vigor.

As for the shields, they aren't as strong as people think, they don't get block mitigation bonuses, so even 12k shields melt instantly, especially considering the amount of light armor that is required to get them to those sorts of values, also, whats the difference between a 15k shield and a 15k heal. The 15k heal has many more upsides than a 15k shield has.

1. you are no longer in execute range meaning much less pressure and can go on the offense faster.
2. you get the full power of block mitigation which shields don't get.
3. less GCDs used to actually get out of the danger range.
4. the heal doesn't automatically wear off by itself after 6 seconds.
5. the heal is more often cheaper than shields.
6. no loss of damage for building to increase the heals value.

Imagine if all burst heals only applied their healed amount for 6 seconds then removed that restored health again unless they were recast within that limited duration, also for that duration all block mitigation was removed. Now also base those heals off max stats instead of damage or health so you're forced into building for max stats instead of damage. That's where shields are currently, even scaling them off weapon/spell damage would still require them to work with block mitigation to be as effective as heals currently are and even then, executes would still provide a lot of pressure (likely enough to entirely remove a shield with 1 cast) until an actual heal was also used.

StaticWave

Pelanora wrote: »

"Sorc buffs need to be done carefully or the class will literally become broken"

This is surely true of every class, and set and mythic for that matter. I can't see why it is uniquely true for sorc.

That also applies to every class, which is why I asked for nerfs to NB's recent buffs, DKs, and templars before they got gutted too much.

With how ZOS goes about balancing, we all know they will nerf a class to the ground following a buff. All I'm saying is be careful what you wish for.

StaticWave

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I'll repeat the important part of my comment because my comment was very long so it likely got missed.

There were no comments (that I saw) before the NB buffs got released on the PTS about "NB will be OP if given any buffs". In fact, everyone was cheering on for buffs to magblade, despite stamblade being in a good spot still and invis and shade being just as OP/problematic as streak in pvp.
Can you see the similarities for blade and sorc here and why this issue is so contentious? mag sucks, stam good, but the difference, it's ok (and encouraged) for nb to receive buffs, but it's not ok (must be careful) for sorc to receive buffs.

Sorcs don't need to be made as OP as nb was, that's obvious. But at least allow magsorc players the opportunity to dream big on their theoretical and suggested buffs without being harassed about the class "being OP" like the opportunity that was given to blades, dks and magden players in the past and that plar players are being afforded currently.

That way the class might actually get something well thought out and playable that lasts longer than 1 patch and can be fine tuned over the course of the PTS instead of occasionally receiving rushed token gestures that get immediately taken away 1 patch later because of an unintended interaction or a clearly overtuned/bugged set or mythic.

This is why I hate this argument that we need to be careful about buffing sorcerer so much. Sorcerer is the only class that gets this stupid argument brought up every time anyone wants even the smallest of buffs to the class.

NB used to be in the exact same position sorcerer currently is in. Mag was pathetically weak, stamina was in a good spot, NB also had 2 utility abilities (invis + shade) to sorcerers 1 utility ability (streak) that create huge balance issues in pvp. Yet, up until the NB buffs got released on the PTS and everyone could see what those buffs actually were, there were zero complaints or comments about needing to be careful when buffing NB (magnb in particular) because stamnb will become OP, in fact everyone was calling for the class to get buffs.

So, again, why must sorc be treated differently. Why must sorc be discriminated against when it comes to be allowed to bring up options, choices and suggestions for buffs, when players from every other class are allowed to dream big for needed buffs when a class is performing poorly without being continuously harassed about "<insert class here> will be OP if buffed" comments.

The threads on buffing plars, no comments that are just "can't buff the class or it will be too op" despite beam being one of the most broken executes in the game right now as well as multiple other skills being very strong for what they provide.
There's even threads talking about buffs/options/changes for necros and once again, lo and behold, not a single comment saying the class will be OP if it receives buffs, despite necro bombers being very strong zerg busters even after the last dark convergance nerfs.
All of these threads contain comments that at most will provide suggestions for moving some of the power out of some abilities to spread it to other abilities and bring them up to par, but no comments yet that outright say we can't buff the class because it will become OP. You would think those 2 classes in particular would be prime targets for that kind of commentary since last patch the PotL + javelin + beam combo was melting players with no counter play and necro bombers have been around causing issues in PvP ever since dark convergence was released.

If the scaling isn't carefully monitored, we could see a 15-16k hardened ward in a max damage build. That's also broken especially considering how hybridization allows for sorc to use Vigor.

As for the shields, they aren't as strong as people think, they don't get block mitigation bonuses, so even 12k shields melt instantly, especially considering the amount of light armor that is required to get them to those sorts of values, also, whats the difference between a 15k shield and a 15k heal. The 15k heal has many more upsides than a 15k shield has.

1. you are no longer in execute range meaning much less pressure and can go on the offense faster.
2. you get the full power of block mitigation which shields don't get.
3. less GCDs used to actually get out of the danger range.
4. the heal doesn't automatically wear off by itself after 6 seconds.
5. the heal is more often cheaper than shields.
6. no loss of damage for building to increase the heals value.

Imagine if all burst heals only applied their healed amount for 6 seconds then removed that restored health again unless they were recast within that limited duration, also for that duration all block mitigation was removed. Now also base those heals off max stats instead of damage or health so you're forced into building for max stats instead of damage. That's where shields are currently, even scaling them off weapon/spell damage would still require them to work with block mitigation to be as effective as heals currently are and even then, executes would still provide a lot of pressure (likely enough to entirely remove a shield with 1 cast) until an actual heal was also used.

First of all, I've been pretty vocal on the forums the past 2 years about nerfing the overperforming classes (DK, templar, NB, etc.). I'm also a 5 year sorc main. I've played enough of the class to speak objectively about its balance.

The reason I think it's a valid argument to make is because Sorc is inherently a top tier class. You can actually validate this argument by looking at the No Proc PvP campaigns when ZOS did their tests for lag. Magsorc was one of the strongest classes in those campaigns. Yes, DK and Plars didn't receive their most recent buffs, but that doesn't change the fact that Sorc was one of the best classes with little no to buffs. It took multiple buffs for DK and Plars to overtake Sorc. Obviously that was a controlled environment, which goes to my next point: Sorc's true power is being limited by the sets they can run. If they are given spell damage scaling, then there's no stopping them from putting on the BiS sets and be able to compete with the current top tier classes. That's just with 1 small change. What do you think is going to happen when we give the class all these suggestions? It's going to be OP.

That's why I said we need to be careful. What do you think will happen when a sorc with a 15k-16k shield also has access to a true burst heal that can crit for 17-18k? What about a sorc with 15-16k shields, a true burst heal, and vigor? There's literally no reason to play other classes but magsorc.

I am all for sorc buffs because quite frankly, I also benefit from that. I just don't think people are being as objective. The class is never bad. It just hasn't been updated along with other classes. Quite frankly, I'd rather them nerf the overperforming classes instead of buffing everything and having to deal with more balance issues.

Turtle_Bot

And I am a magsorc main of 6 (nearly 7) years now, I know that the class has the potential to become OP, but so does every other class. It's still not a valid point to make when it is being applied pre-emptively to sorcerers and only applied to other classes after the fact.

Those tests aren't a true indication though, because as you said, plar and dk didn't have their buffs yet, neither did nb or warden so the test was basically sorc vs necro and sorc being a f2p base game class was always going to be more popular and perform better overall due to having more players on it. Necro is also a very buff intensive class that requires high APM, constant foresight and consistent buff management to do well on, as such, not many players gravitate towards that class.

As for what would happen with a 15-16k shield, heal and vigor, probably the exact same thing that happens whenever any other class casts 2, 15-18k+ burst heals and vigor on themselves. Shields still take a GCD to use, the same as any burst heal, using a shield and a burst heal is still going to be the same as using 2 burst heals.

DK's have multiple group shields, wardens have toughness and crystaline slab/shim shield and plars have shields as well, all of which do plenty of other things than just being a shield to absorb damage. Shield stacking is not something that is unique to sorcerer and hasn't been for a long time. The reason it used to be so common on sorcerer is because the other classes had better defensive tools that it made using shields irrelevant on those classes outside of a group set-up or niche build, while sorc never had those tools.

AdamLAD

Why would any sorc main be careful what they wish for ? Aren't we asking for buffs ? Surely that's a good thing

RemoryAzure

Pelanora wrote: »

I can't see why it is uniquely true for sorc.

coz every other class is able to face enemy 1v1 and absorb damage, if u overbuff sorc, it will be the only class that can freely choose between fighting and escaping due to streak.

right now the scenario is: sorc attacks, sorc cannot fight, sorc escapes, repeat until the sorc finally dies or realizes that he cant win and leaves. i guess it will be very frustrating when u fight someone who can escape at any moment but also has all the chances to kill u and u cannot do anything against him until u finally die.

thats why sorc needs huge buff BUT streak MUST be moved to be his ult, so he will need to decide, to go all in, stay in combat and use offensive ultimate, or fight without ultimate at all, saving it for streaking.

StaticWave

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

It's still not a valid point to make when it is being applied pre-emptively to sorcerers and only applied to other classes after the fact.

That's fair enough.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Those tests aren't a true indication though, because as you said, plar and dk didn't have their buffs yet, neither did nb or warden so the test was basically sorc vs necro and sorc being a f2p base game class was always going to be more popular and perform better overall due to having more players on it. Necro is also a very buff intensive class that requires high APM, constant foresight and consistent buff management to do well on, as such, not many players gravitate towards that class.

They still apply because at the time, those classes didn't get any buffs. Plar and DK still had the only weakness holding them back from being top tier, which was a lack of mobility/sustain. Sorc's mobility allowed it to excel in Cyrodiil and BG. Furthermore, the fact that most of the sets used in No Proc benefitted Sorc's shield stacking strategy also elevated it to top tier status. Outside of that environment, other classes could use better sets to compete with Sorc. That's why I think if sorcs are able to scale their offense/defense with spell damage, it would at least be top 3 in terms of class ranking.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

As for what would happen with a 15-16k shield, heal and vigor, probably the exact same thing that happens whenever any other class casts 2, 15-18k+ burst heals and vigor on themselves. Shields still take a GCD to use, the same as any burst heal, using a shield and a burst heal is still going to be the same as using 2 burst heals.

The biggest difference you're overlooking is no other class can put a 15-16k soft HP over their current HP bar on demand. This extra HP prevents them from getting into execute range and prevents them from dying to a big burst. It's like me stacking 40k HP on a Warden, but with the benefit of not actually having to spec for HP. With spell damage scaling, I can drop some max magicka and get more HP, and my shield strength will stay relatively the same. At 28k HP, I'd be able to still stay at 12-13k shields, possibly more. That's an effective 40k HP or more in a full damage build with decent recovery. This is just from shields alone. Add in Vigor and a Burst heal for when you're low and you're basically unkillable.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

DK's have multiple group shields, wardens have toughness and crystaline slab/shim shield and plars have shields as well, all of which do plenty of other things than just being a shield to absorb damage. Shield stacking is not something that is unique to sorcerer and hasn't been for a long time. The reason it used to be so common on sorcerer is because the other classes had better defensive tools that it made using shields irrelevant on those classes outside of a group set-up or niche build, while sorc never had those tools.

The difference is Sorc's the only class that has Shield scaling with damage. Sure that's their way of having a "burst heal", but you need to pick between having a better shield or a burst heal. You can't have both or the class will be too hard to kill. I ran a 40k HP stamsorc with Absorbed Missle, and whenever I popped the skill my HP goes back to full. The shield is only 5k-6k at 40k HP, and the heal is only 4-5k, but when spammed and combined with HoTs I rarely die to a ranged player unless it's a super cancer build like the Savage WW bowsorc.

Luede

RemoryAzure wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

I can't see why it is uniquely true for sorc.

coz every other class is able to face enemy 1v1 and absorb damage, if u overbuff sorc, it will be the only class that can freely choose between fighting and escaping due to streak.

right now the scenario is: sorc attacks, sorc cannot fight, sorc escapes, repeat until the sorc finally dies or realizes that he cant win and leaves. i guess it will be very frustrating when u fight someone who can escape at any moment but also has all the chances to kill u and u cannot do anything against him until u finally die.

thats why sorc needs huge buff BUT streak MUST be moved to be his ult, so he will need to decide, to go all in, stay in combat and use offensive ultimate, or fight without ultimate at all, saving it for streaking.

i can promise you that a sorc is hardly able to escape if you work with gapclosers and 200 runspeed, which can easily be achieved in all stamina based setups these days. Players who are afraid of a Sorc/Magsorc are playing well below the level of the opponent.

Turtle_Bot

RemoryAzure wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

I can't see why it is uniquely true for sorc.

coz every other class is able to face enemy 1v1 and absorb damage, if u overbuff sorc, it will be the only class that can freely choose between fighting and escaping due to streak.

right now the scenario is: sorc attacks, sorc cannot fight, sorc escapes, repeat until the sorc finally dies or realizes that he cant win and leaves. i guess it will be very frustrating when u fight someone who can escape at any moment but also has all the chances to kill u and u cannot do anything against him until u finally die.

thats why sorc needs huge buff BUT streak MUST be moved to be his ult, so he will need to decide, to go all in, stay in combat and use offensive ultimate, or fight without ultimate at all, saving it for streaking.

again, NB can do the same engage/dis-engage thing and nobody was complaining about buffing the class until they actually saw the buffs get actually put forward in the PTS and even then, the only real complaints and change that was made was that the guaranteed crit of surprise attack was reduced from being on every cast to once every 4 seconds. No nerfs to invis or shade either.

PhoenixGrey

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

It's still not a valid point to make when it is being applied pre-emptively to sorcerers and only applied to other classes after the fact.

That's fair enough.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Those tests aren't a true indication though, because as you said, plar and dk didn't have their buffs yet, neither did nb or warden so the test was basically sorc vs necro and sorc being a f2p base game class was always going to be more popular and perform better overall due to having more players on it. Necro is also a very buff intensive class that requires high APM, constant foresight and consistent buff management to do well on, as such, not many players gravitate towards that class.

They still apply because at the time, those classes didn't get any buffs. Plar and DK still had the only weakness holding them back from being top tier, which was a lack of mobility/sustain. Sorc's mobility allowed it to excel in Cyrodiil and BG. Furthermore, the fact that most of the sets used in No Proc benefitted Sorc's shield stacking strategy also elevated it to top tier status. Outside of that environment, other classes could use better sets to compete with Sorc. That's why I think if sorcs are able to scale their offense/defense with spell damage, it would at least be top 3 in terms of class ranking.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

As for what would happen with a 15-16k shield, heal and vigor, probably the exact same thing that happens whenever any other class casts 2, 15-18k+ burst heals and vigor on themselves. Shields still take a GCD to use, the same as any burst heal, using a shield and a burst heal is still going to be the same as using 2 burst heals.

The biggest difference you're overlooking is no other class can put a 15-16k soft HP over their current HP bar on demand. This extra HP prevents them from getting into execute range and prevents them from dying to a big burst. It's like me stacking 40k HP on a Warden, but with the benefit of not actually having to spec for HP. With spell damage scaling, I can drop some max magicka and get more HP, and my shield strength will stay relatively the same. At 28k HP, I'd be able to still stay at 12-13k shields, possibly more. That's an effective 40k HP or more in a full damage build with decent recovery. This is just from shields alone. Add in Vigor and a Burst heal for when you're low and you're basically unkillable.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

DK's have multiple group shields, wardens have toughness and crystaline slab/shim shield and plars have shields as well, all of which do plenty of other things than just being a shield to absorb damage. Shield stacking is not something that is unique to sorcerer and hasn't been for a long time. The reason it used to be so common on sorcerer is because the other classes had better defensive tools that it made using shields irrelevant on those classes outside of a group set-up or niche build, while sorc never had those tools.

The difference is Sorc's the only class that has Shield scaling with damage. Sure that's their way of having a "burst heal", but you need to pick between having a better shield or a burst heal. You can't have both or the class will be too hard to kill. I ran a 40k HP stamsorc with Absorbed Missle, and whenever I popped the skill my HP goes back to full. The shield is only 5k-6k at 40k HP, and the heal is only 4-5k, but when spammed and combined with HoTs I rarely die to a ranged player unless it's a super cancer build like the Savage WW bowsorc.

Making sorc shields scale off spell damage will not benefit mag sorc but hybrid sorc like the current one you play

I can run a mag sorc out of sustain in today’s meta. Imagine those mag sorcs running 30k max mag and shield stacking.

Besides if shields scale with spell damage the sorc will have stronger heals as well as a side effect and it will exactly be the situation you described

Pet sorc was strong because of the heals on top of shields. The heals were necessary because of oblivion damage from overturned sets.

Mag sorc needs stronger shields by adding buffs such as major protection to applied shields. This will make sure players with low mag pool cannot abuse those shields.

Pelanora

" if u overbuff [NB] it will be the only class that can freely choose between fighting and escaping due to [invis]."

Said noone ever?

StaticWave

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

It's still not a valid point to make when it is being applied pre-emptively to sorcerers and only applied to other classes after the fact.

That's fair enough.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Those tests aren't a true indication though, because as you said, plar and dk didn't have their buffs yet, neither did nb or warden so the test was basically sorc vs necro and sorc being a f2p base game class was always going to be more popular and perform better overall due to having more players on it. Necro is also a very buff intensive class that requires high APM, constant foresight and consistent buff management to do well on, as such, not many players gravitate towards that class.

They still apply because at the time, those classes didn't get any buffs. Plar and DK still had the only weakness holding them back from being top tier, which was a lack of mobility/sustain. Sorc's mobility allowed it to excel in Cyrodiil and BG. Furthermore, the fact that most of the sets used in No Proc benefitted Sorc's shield stacking strategy also elevated it to top tier status. Outside of that environment, other classes could use better sets to compete with Sorc. That's why I think if sorcs are able to scale their offense/defense with spell damage, it would at least be top 3 in terms of class ranking.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

As for what would happen with a 15-16k shield, heal and vigor, probably the exact same thing that happens whenever any other class casts 2, 15-18k+ burst heals and vigor on themselves. Shields still take a GCD to use, the same as any burst heal, using a shield and a burst heal is still going to be the same as using 2 burst heals.

The biggest difference you're overlooking is no other class can put a 15-16k soft HP over their current HP bar on demand. This extra HP prevents them from getting into execute range and prevents them from dying to a big burst. It's like me stacking 40k HP on a Warden, but with the benefit of not actually having to spec for HP. With spell damage scaling, I can drop some max magicka and get more HP, and my shield strength will stay relatively the same. At 28k HP, I'd be able to still stay at 12-13k shields, possibly more. That's an effective 40k HP or more in a full damage build with decent recovery. This is just from shields alone. Add in Vigor and a Burst heal for when you're low and you're basically unkillable.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

DK's have multiple group shields, wardens have toughness and crystaline slab/shim shield and plars have shields as well, all of which do plenty of other things than just being a shield to absorb damage. Shield stacking is not something that is unique to sorcerer and hasn't been for a long time. The reason it used to be so common on sorcerer is because the other classes had better defensive tools that it made using shields irrelevant on those classes outside of a group set-up or niche build, while sorc never had those tools.

The difference is Sorc's the only class that has Shield scaling with damage. Sure that's their way of having a "burst heal", but you need to pick between having a better shield or a burst heal. You can't have both or the class will be too hard to kill. I ran a 40k HP stamsorc with Absorbed Missle, and whenever I popped the skill my HP goes back to full. The shield is only 5k-6k at 40k HP, and the heal is only 4-5k, but when spammed and combined with HoTs I rarely die to a ranged player unless it's a super cancer build like the Savage WW bowsorc.

Making sorc shields scale off spell damage will not benefit mag sorc but hybrid sorc like the current one you play

I can run a mag sorc out of sustain in today’s meta. Imagine those mag sorcs running 30k max mag and shield stacking.

Besides if shields scale with spell damage the sorc will have stronger heals as well as a side effect and it will exactly be the situation you described

Pet sorc was strong because of the heals on top of shields. The heals were necessary because of oblivion damage from overturned sets.

Mag sorc needs stronger shields by adding buffs such as major protection to applied shields. This will make sure players with low mag pool cannot abuse those shields.

I never advocated for shield scaling with spell damage. I advocated for a true burst heal or a rework to Crit Surge so that mag and stamsorcs can have more reliable healing over time or something to save themselves from death. The current shield strength and a true burst heal would not be broken as people can break through a 13k shield in 1 GCD. That's balanced. What's not balanced is having a 16k shield with a burst heal.

Heals already scale with spell damage. Most people just don't bother going that route because there isn't a good class burst heal. Some sorcs run Resto staff back bar for Blessing of Restoration but it's never as good as a DK's Coag or a templar's HoTD.

RemoryAzure

Pelanora wrote: »

" if u overbuff [NB] it will be the only class that can freely choose between fighting and escaping due to [invis]."

u cant ever use cloak against a skilled enemy, or even just a small group with a flare-healbot. NB needed buffs (not so much tho for melee version, but ranged NB can still get some love honestly) to be able to fight without cloak and many of NBs arent even using it outside of gank builds. on the other hand, i doubt u'll ever see sorc without streak.

im not afraid of sorcs, i want to play it myself, but i dont want it to become another meta overpowered class like DKs were for the last years, thats why i think streak must be his ultimate to balance all the possible buffs

Brrrofski

RemoryAzure wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

" if u overbuff [NB] it will be the only class that can freely choose between fighting and escaping due to [invis]."

u cant ever use cloak against a skilled enemy, or even just a small group with a flare-healbot. NB needed buffs (not so much tho for melee version, but ranged NB can still get some love honestly) to be able to fight without cloak and many of NBs arent even using it outside of gank builds. on the other hand, i doubt u'll ever see sorc without streak.

im not afraid of sorcs, i want to play it myself, but i dont want it to become another meta overpowered class like DKs were for the last years, thats why i think streak must be his ultimate to balance all the possible buffs

Streak being an ultimate is single-handedly the most bizarre, non-sensical and worst idea I've heard on this forum

Congrats.

RemoryAzure

Brrrofski wrote: »

Streak being an ultimate is single-handedly the most bizarre, non-sensical and worst idea I've heard on this forum

and still the most logical one. can u suggest any solution how to make sorc as strong as other classes without limiting ability to streak? no, u cannot, coz its technically impossible. streak is simply the most unique ability in the game, and probably the strongest overall, it is the only reason people still play this class. sure, why not, lets make sorc do damage as NB, be tanky as corrosive DK and remove streak cost to make him truly mobile, gonna be fun, right?

the1andonlyskwex

RemoryAzure wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Streak being an ultimate is single-handedly the most bizarre, non-sensical and worst idea I've heard on this forum

and still the most logical one. can u suggest any solution how to make sorc as strong as other classes without limiting ability to streak? no, u cannot, coz its technically impossible. streak is simply the most unique ability in the game, and probably the strongest overall, it is the only reason people still play this class. sure, why not, lets make sorc do damage as NB, be tanky as corrosive DK and remove streak cost to make him truly mobile, gonna be fun, right?

I think you're mixing up Streak and Shadowy Disguise. Streak is just a gap closer without a target requirement.

That said, if ZOS implemented all of the OP's suggestions, Sorc would be the strongest class by a ludicrous margin. There might be a few good ideas in there for improving individual skills, but in combination the suggested changes buff virtually every ability into overpoweredness.

RemoryAzure

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Streak is just a gap closer without a target requirement.

exactly, which makes it not only a gap closer, but also the best skill in the game in terms of escaping fights when used properly, especially when mixed with terrain and LoS. not even saying that any ranged build just instantly loses interest when seeing sorc streak away coz they dont use gap closers and trying to fight sorc is just a waste of time.

on the other hand, u mentioned cloak, which is only useful against a middle or worse skilled enemy and can be successfully used only when paired with shade and suitable terrain.

any noticeable buff to sorc will make it too op like it was in high isle patch (and im not even talking about savage werewolf set, im talking about magsorc i played that time), so its obvious that if u want sorc to be able to face any other class in fair combat, u have to limit his ability to streak away when he makes a mistake, coz other classes cant afford making one.

Katlefiya

RemoryAzure wrote: »

any noticeable buff to sorc will make it too op like it was in high isle patch (and im not even talking about savage werewolf set, im talking about magsorc i played that time)

Sorry, what? PvP Magsorc too op in High Isle? That is an interesting take. A flawed one, but interesting nevertheless.

PhoenixGrey

RemoryAzure wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Streak being an ultimate is single-handedly the most bizarre, non-sensical and worst idea I've heard on this forum

and still the most logical one. can u suggest any solution how to make sorc as strong as other classes without limiting ability to streak? no, u cannot, coz its technically impossible. streak is simply the most unique ability in the game, and probably the strongest overall, it is the only reason people still play this class. sure, why not, lets make sorc do damage as NB, be tanky as corrosive DK and remove streak cost to make him truly mobile, gonna be fun, right?

Remove stacking cost of streak. That’s more logical

Players already thinking about sorc nerfs. There are no sorc buffs even planned by ZOS and you are already discussing nerfs

PhoenixGrey

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

RemoryAzure wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Streak being an ultimate is single-handedly the most bizarre, non-sensical and worst idea I've heard on this forum

and still the most logical one. can u suggest any solution how to make sorc as strong as other classes without limiting ability to streak? no, u cannot, coz its technically impossible. streak is simply the most unique ability in the game, and probably the strongest overall, it is the only reason people still play this class. sure, why not, lets make sorc do damage as NB, be tanky as corrosive DK and remove streak cost to make him truly mobile, gonna be fun, right?

I think you're mixing up Streak and Shadowy Disguise. Streak is just a gap closer without a target requirement.

That said, if ZOS implemented all of the OP's suggestions, Sorc would be the strongest class by a ludicrous margin. There might be a few good ideas in there for improving individual skills, but in combination the suggested changes buff virtually every ability into overpoweredness.

What’s the harm in an op sorc

There is an op nb, was op dk and Templar not too long back

Brrrofski

RemoryAzure wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Streak being an ultimate is single-handedly the most bizarre, non-sensical and worst idea I've heard on this forum

and still the most logical one. can u suggest any solution how to make sorc as strong as other classes without limiting ability to streak? no, u cannot, coz its technically impossible. streak is simply the most unique ability in the game, and probably the strongest overall, it is the only reason people still play this class. sure, why not, lets make sorc do damage as NB, be tanky as corrosive DK and remove streak cost to make him truly mobile, gonna be fun, right?

How is making a mobility skill and ultimate, logical?

And yeh, streak is the strongest skill sorc has.

Because everything else has been nerfed like crazy and fallen far behind other classes.

AdamLAD

I don't understand this thing about disengagement when nightblade can do exactly the same. It's even better on a nightblade. Going into stealth literally mitigates projectiles and dots and most melee single target abilities whilst being able to heal. If you streak once, you can still be hit by single target abilities that are in melee range, because it doesn't "miss" like stealth can do. You can still be hit by dots and projectiles. Not only this stealth lasts longer than streak, so you can heal and completely nullify certian damage for said period. Sorc you must still take the hits ALL the time. Now that's just stealth, let's look at shade, thats true teleportation. ON TOP of stealth. And let's add a ridiculous amount of roll dodges on top. Madness. I've recently being playing cloak blade........ whoever says streak is better than cloak is just straight up wrong. Plus cloak gives major resolve AND procs vampires extra damage AND DOESN'T RAMP UP IN COST ...............................................

PhoenixGrey

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I'll repeat the important part of my comment because my comment was very long so it likely got missed.

There were no comments (that I saw) before the NB buffs got released on the PTS about "NB will be OP if given any buffs". In fact, everyone was cheering on for buffs to magblade, despite stamblade being in a good spot still and invis and shade being just as OP/problematic as streak in pvp.
Can you see the similarities for blade and sorc here and why this issue is so contentious? mag sucks, stam good, but the difference, it's ok (and encouraged) for nb to receive buffs, but it's not ok (must be careful) for sorc to receive buffs.

Players are terrified of mag sorc buffs.
Potatoes used to squabble for nerfs before pts patch hit. But now there is a squabble even before any pts.

Even with minor buffs to mag sorc we might be superior to all the players on this forum thread and wrecking them single handedly.

I remember complaints on harness mag and ball of lightning. I remember harness mag was nerfed because sorc used it. I remember bol was nerfed because players are not aware of other classes with similar defensive skills or it’s just players terrified of mag sorc mains like me

I can only assume players are terrified of mag sorc mains like myself.

RemoryAzure

Katlefiya wrote: »

Sorry, what? PvP Magsorc too op in High Isle? That is an interesting take. A flawed one, but interesting nevertheless.

in that patch u could combine oakensoul+RaT+elementalcatalyst for a total of 45% crit damage boost, and skillwise crystal weapon + overload LAs + crushing shock for an x1.5 more total damage per second than NB has with specbow, and this is without any stacking or other preparations.
for me it was like: before patch u cant even get anyone's hp below 50-70% no matter how much u try, in high isle patch u suddenly start dealing 70%+ of hp bar to anyone per second, and after oakensoul and CW nerf playing sorc is pain again

Katlefiya

RemoryAzure wrote: »

for me it was like: before patch u cant even get anyone's hp below 50-70% no matter how much u try, in high isle patch u suddenly start dealing 70%+ of hp bar to anyone per second, and after oakensoul and CW nerf playing sorc is pain again

I see. So magsorc was OP because of Oakensoul ring (a mythic everyone could use) and crystal weapon, the stamina morph of crystal shards. Like i said: an interesting but flawed take.

Pelanora

AdamLAD wrote: »

I don't understand this thing about disengagement when nightblade can do exactly the same. It's even better on a nightblade. Going into stealth literally mitigates projectiles and dots and most melee single target abilities whilst being able to heal. If you streak once, you can still be hit by single target abilities that are in melee range, because it doesn't "miss" like stealth can do. You can still be hit by dots and projectiles. Not only this stealth lasts longer than streak, so you can heal and completely nullify certian damage for said period. Sorc you must still take the hits ALL the time. Now that's just stealth, let's look at shade, thats true teleportation. ON TOP of stealth. And let's add a ridiculous amount of roll dodges on top. Madness. I've recently being playing cloak blade........ whoever says streak is better than cloak is just straight up wrong. Plus cloak gives major resolve AND procs vampires extra damage AND DOESN'T RAMP UP IN COST ...............................................

Thank you.

Can we please stop talking about streak now.

OBJnoob

Literally just give them major breach and leave it at that. Baby steps ensure you don't go too far.

StaticWave

Literally just give them a burst heal scaling with max stats and keep everything else the same so they can drop shields, run better sets, and play into the healing path. A back bar consisting of Streak, Burst Heal, Rapid/Radiating Regen/Vigor, Dark Conversion, Armor Buff if not using Chudan, or another HoT if using Chudan, and the class's defense is set. Just look at how no cloak NB is played and apply the same defensive buffs. Not that hard..

Don't forget Sorc also has offensive heals with Crit Surge and Blood Magic. That's plenty of offensive and defensive heals to use with Streak. Sorc does not need a lot of buffs. It needs key buffs to fix its weakness, which is lack of good heals. The rest are nice, but not needed because it can make the class broken.