Sorc Pain Points and ideas on buffs, changes and reworks to skills to bring the class up to par.

StaticWave

A sorc who is good at Streak can enter or leave a fight at will. Give that sorc a burst heal, and he will be able to use meta sets for most magicka classes, run max spell damage to make use of class passives, and stack max armor. He can also go hybrid to use Vigor if needed for the extra healing over time. A sorc who is good at Streak and has a good burst heal will be borderline impossible to kill. That's the first step to making sorc good.

AdamLAD

StaticWave wrote: »

Literally just give them a burst heal scaling with max stats and keep everything else the same so they can drop shields, run better sets, and play into the healing path. A back bar consisting of Streak, Burst Heal, Rapid/Radiating Regen/Vigor, Dark Conversion, Armor Buff if not using Chudan, or another HoT if using Chudan, and the class's defense is set. Just look at how no cloak NB is played and apply the same defensive buffs. Not that hard..

Don't forget Sorc also has offensive heals with Crit Surge and Blood Magic. That's plenty of offensive and defensive heals to use with Streak. Sorc does not need a lot of buffs. It needs key buffs to fix its weakness, which is lack of good heals. The rest are nice, but not needed because it can make the class broken.

So we can drop Shields? I'm sorry what ? Why must sorc drop Shields for ? Why must sorc have its streak nerfed or dropped. Its absolutely nonsense. That's OUR identity. Its our class skills.

How about on dk we drop whip and coag

How about on nb we drop speccy and cloak

How about on necro they drop there hex proof and bones

How temp they drop breath of life and rune

How about warden drops shalks and there little Betty

So essentially in terms of basic logic. You don't want any other class dropping these abilities. Class abilities. But you want sorc to drop shields and streak.... right. To add insult to injury. Shields are the WORST defense in the game they have been neglected since 2018. Sorc hasn't been buffed since 2018. There's a huge amount of bias on the forums against sorcerer. For years I have dealt with the consequences of being a sorc main and other classes just absolutely been driven to the top in terms of raw power. I am not here fighting for buffs for myself as I'm doing fine, I am here for the rest of the community who want to play the class but can't as its absolutely terrible compared to EVERYTHING else. And I mean LITERALLY everything.

RemoryAzure

AdamLAD wrote: »

So we can drop Shields? I'm sorry what ? Why must sorc drop Shields for ? Why must sorc have its streak nerfed or dropped. Its absolutely nonsense. That's OUR identity. Its our class skills.

How about on dk we drop whip and coag
How about on nb we drop speccy and cloak

any stam DK has never used whip or coag atleast until hybridization
many NBs during the last year dropped cloak and NB has to suffer from extremely bugged specbow mechanics due to insane damage, if ZoS decide to reduce its damage by atleast 1/4 (from 2x spammable to 1.5x), its insta drop for me

and as a sorc main, i love this class so much, but i hate and dont want to use skills like shields, frags and haunting curse due to their unfluent and unreliable mechanics. as a sorc main i want to see solid buffs but they are only possible with streak limited by being an ult unless u want to repeat the same story again, which is "buff - forum whine - instant huge nerf next patch to the worse state than before". sorry to say the facts.

Turtle_Bot

ok, so let me ask this about moving streak to the ultimate slot.

Every class has 3 different ultimates.
1 DPS that deals a lot of damage over a duration. corrosive, nova, goliath, northern, atro and tether
1 Utility that provides something to support the group. standard, rite, resurrection, trees, negate and consuming darkness
1 Burst ultimate, deals a lot of damage instantly, but less overall damage than the DoT ultimate. Leap, sweep, colossus, bear, overload and incap.

If streak is to become an ultimate, it would have to be buffed through the roof to make it worth that slot and fill the now missing "burst ultimate" slot. Otherwise sorcerer will be entirely without a burst damage ultimate. Can you imagine how the forums would react to seeing those kinds of buffs to streak even though it would be made an ultimate. It would make the current complaints about streak look like people want it buffed.

I'm talking damage essentially tripled or more to be equivalent to leap, alongside a range increase from 15m to 22m, removal of "ramping cost", it's stun would have to be made stronger as well and for the other morph, BoL, that would have to get insane utility buffs such as "causes caster to avoid all attacks for 5 seconds" to match the defensive power of DK's other leap morph (which is a 100% of max health damage shield) alongside the generic buffs such as dealing big damage, increased cast range, etc.

As for making overload a spammable, crystal weapon already does what overload would do (alter the light/heavy attacks), so the ability would need to be completely redesigned from scratch.

Switching streak to an ultimate would also make sorcerer into a very slow class, essentially making it into DK 2.0, at which point why not just run as a DK since dk would have a better and more cohesive kit, not to mention the advantage of lots of AoE compared to sorcs majority single target damage.

Turtle_Bot

Not to mention that if streak were to become an ultimate ability, rune cage would have to be buffed to the max (I'm talking plars javelin levels of power), otherwise sorcerer has no reliable stun outside of ultimate abilities.

AdamLAD

RemoryAzure wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

So we can drop Shields? I'm sorry what ? Why must sorc drop Shields for ? Why must sorc have its streak nerfed or dropped. Its absolutely nonsense. That's OUR identity. Its our class skills.

How about on dk we drop whip and coag
How about on nb we drop speccy and cloak

any stam DK has never used whip or coag atleast until hybridization
many NBs during the last year dropped cloak and NB has to suffer from extremely bugged specbow mechanics due to insane damage, if ZoS decide to reduce its damage by atleast 1/4 (from 2x spammable to 1.5x), its insta drop for me

and as a sorc main, i love this class so much, but i hate and dont want to use skills like shields, frags and haunting curse due to their unfluent and unreliable mechanics. as a sorc main i want to see solid buffs but they are only possible with streak limited by being an ult unless u want to repeat the same story again, which is "buff - forum whine - instant huge nerf next patch to the worse state than before". sorry to say the facts.

Hate and don't want to use Shields. That's fine but DO NOT say only BUFF the way YOU WANT TO PLAY. Utter bias. Do not let other playstyles get neglected for ur own selfish gain. I hate pets. But they deserve to be one barred in PvP for more viability. All playstyles of sorc need to be adjusted and addressed. The fact we are talking about numerous playstyles being so bad and need buffing proves the class is in a dire state.

RemoryAzure

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

<1 Burst ultimate>

<I'm talking damage essentially tripled or more to be equivalent to leap, alongside a range increase from 15m to 22m, removal of "ramping cost", it's stun would have to be made stronger as well>

<As for making overload a spammable, crystal weapon already does what overload would do (alter the light/heavy attacks), so the ability would need to be completely redesigned from scratch.>

<...> i can hardly imagine overload to be considered as a burst ultimate. it replaces LAs, so the actual damage added is not that high that u might expect, meaning effectively 2 uses of overload do the same damage as, for example, incap does, and that already takes 3 GCDs to activate and use 2 times, not mentioning that it does not stun nor increases damage on a target.

<...> streak does not need to be buffed to the state of DK's leap, coz i dont assume that ult streak will consume all the ultimate. sure, it can be tweaked, like NBs incap, something like "costs 25 ultimate, but having more than 200-300 ultimate will consume 50-75 ultimate and deal double-triple damage". or double its damage but add simple effect like "hitting a target with streak places a debuff on a target, which increases target's shock damage taken by 10% but reduces his next streak damage taken by 50%". similar ideas can be done with BoL.

<...> by assuming overload as spammable i mean that it wont replace LAs anymore, id prefer to see it as actual spammable, that can be weaved with LAs. since most spammable abilities have their code almost identical, i dont think its too hard to copy it and give it existing overload animation.

p.s. and yes, buffing rune cage is a nice idea too

AdamLAD wrote: »

Hate and don't want to use Shields. That's fine but DO NOT say only BUFF the way YOU WANT TO PLAY. Utter bias. Do not let other playstyles get neglected for ur own selfish gain.

but one message above u said basically the opposite - shield is a sorc's identity and that sorc need to be reworked the way that it cannot drop shield from the build. i dont want it. im not against shield builds but im against being it the only way to build.

StaticWave

AdamLAD wrote: »

So we can drop Shields? I'm sorry what ? Why must sorc drop Shields for ? Why must sorc have its streak nerfed or dropped. Its absolutely nonsense. That's OUR identity. Its our class skills.

No, your class identity is Streak. No other class has an ability like Streak. Shields are plentiful in the game. Dampened Ward is a shield that every class can use. You can't call an ability your identity when other classes can run a similar skill.

Just because you refuse to play into the healing path doesn't mean the class should be limited to your shield stacking playstyle. Buff the healing path so people have more options instead of having to play the same style for 5 years. Heals scale with max magicka too, so you can keep your shield and slot a true burst heal, while other people who don't want to play shield builds can go that route.

AdamLAD wrote: »

How about on dk we drop whip and coag

How about on nb we drop speccy and cloak

How about on necro they drop there hex proof and bones

How temp they drop breath of life and rune

How about warden drops shalks and there little Betty

Whip is an offensive ability and not related to this discussion, and Coag has other equivalence like HoTD or Resistant Flesh.

Many NBs run Dark Cloak instead of Shadow Cloak. See what I meant about diversifying a class' build paths?

Many Necros don't run Hex Proof. Bones is an offensive ability, not related to the discussion.

Rune is not part of the discussion either because it's an armor buff. Breath of Life is not Templar's identity either, it's Purge.

Shalks are not part of the discussion because it's an offensive ability. Their defensive identity is Budding Seeds or Bursting Vines.

AdamLAD wrote: »

So essentially in terms of basic logic. You don't want any other class dropping these abilities. Class abilities. But you want sorc to drop shields and streak.... right. To add insult to injury. Shields are the WORST defense in the game they have been neglected since 2018. Sorc hasn't been buffed since 2018. There's a huge amount of bias on the forums against sorcerer. For years I have dealt with the consequences of being a sorc main and other classes just absolutely been driven to the top in terms of raw power. I am not here fighting for buffs for myself as I'm doing fine, I am here for the rest of the community who want to play the class but can't as its absolutely terrible compared to EVERYTHING else. And I mean LITERALLY everything.

Don't put words in my mouth. Whether you choose to drop them or not is your choice. I was simply suggesting giving sorcs a burst heal so people who don't want to run shield builds can tap into the healing path, and people who still want to run shield builds can have a burst heal to save themselves from execute range.

I'm also a sorc main, but I'm objective. Your suggestions only buff your shield build. You should be giving suggestions that buff the class as a whole so both stam and mag specs running various builds can benefit, not just your specific shield stacking build. That's doing the class a huge disservice.

StaticWave

RemoryAzure wrote: »

and as a sorc main, i love this class so much, but i hate and dont want to use skills like shields, frags and haunting curse due to their unfluent and unreliable mechanics. as a sorc main i want to see solid buffs but they are only possible with streak limited by being an ult unless u want to repeat the same story again, which is "buff - forum whine - instant huge nerf next patch to the worse state than before". sorry to say the facts.

This is what I wanted the class to be - diversified in builds. Why on earth would anyone want to play the same shield stacking playstyle for 5 years and ask for buffs to that specific spec only? Why not ask for buffs that benefit every playstyle.

Look at the current NB. They've received so many buffs that everybuild is possible. Bruiserblade? Easily doable with the amount of heals they have. Stealthy and evasive blade? Easily doable with Shadow Cloak and Shadow Image. A bruiserblade that is also evasive? Doable by slotting more heals while keeping Cloak and Image.

That's what I want to see in Sorc. I want a Sorc buffed to the point where I can play whatever playstyle I want. I want to be able to sit and trade blows with other bruisers without having to streak away from the fight. I want to be able to combine decent heals and Streak like how a NB can use Cloak and Healthy Offering. I want to run a shield build with a burst heal to save me from execute if I'm low.

What I don't want is being forced to play the same style for 5 years just because some people are loyal to it and only want their spec buffed.

PhoenixGrey

StaticWave wrote: »

Literally just give them a burst heal scaling with max stats and keep everything else the same so they can drop shields, run better sets, and play into the healing path. A back bar consisting of Streak, Burst Heal, Rapid/Radiating Regen/Vigor, Dark Conversion, Armor Buff if not using Chudan, or another HoT if using Chudan, and the class's defense is set. Just look at how no cloak NB is played and apply the same defensive buffs. Not that hard..

Don't forget Sorc also has offensive heals with Crit Surge and Blood Magic. That's plenty of offensive and defensive heals to use with Streak. Sorc does not need a lot of buffs. It needs key buffs to fix its weakness, which is lack of good heals. The rest are nice, but not needed because it can make the class broken.

Shields are a part of mag sorc class identity

I can’t see an incentive to play the class without shields.

Probably run an ice warden or something if I really need to play mag. It’s much easier and more rewarding in outnumbered situations. It has a gazzalion times better defense right now and can still somewhat counter ZOS favorite god tier nightblade

Streak is not a good reason to play the class anymore unless they do something crazy like remove stacking cost

StaticWave

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Literally just give them a burst heal scaling with max stats and keep everything else the same so they can drop shields, run better sets, and play into the healing path. A back bar consisting of Streak, Burst Heal, Rapid/Radiating Regen/Vigor, Dark Conversion, Armor Buff if not using Chudan, or another HoT if using Chudan, and the class's defense is set. Just look at how no cloak NB is played and apply the same defensive buffs. Not that hard..

Don't forget Sorc also has offensive heals with Crit Surge and Blood Magic. That's plenty of offensive and defensive heals to use with Streak. Sorc does not need a lot of buffs. It needs key buffs to fix its weakness, which is lack of good heals. The rest are nice, but not needed because it can make the class broken.

Shields are a part of mag sorc class identity

I can’t see an incentive to play the class without shields.

Probably run an ice warden or something if I really need to play mag. It’s much easier and more rewarding in outnumbered situations. It has a gazzalion times better defense right now and can still somewhat counter ZOS favorite god tier nightblade

Streak is not a good reason to play the class anymore unless they do something crazy like remove stacking cost

It’s like 20-30% of your identity, and that’s only because of the shield stacking build. Streak is the true identity of mag and stamsorc. When someone thinks of sorcs, they think of how sorcs can zip around the battlefield with Streak.

It just so happens that shield stacking sorcs are more popular because healing sorcs are utterly trash compared to other classes. I can guarantee you if sorcs had the same healing power as other classes, you would see A LOT more no-ward sorcs jn cyrodiil. In fact, you would probably rarely see a shield sorc again. I mean just look at how most NBs and DKs stopped using Dampened Ward when their heals got better.

Pelanora

Lighting is the identity, but the lightning execute is terrible, the staff is not favoured, and the others...well. Not so much this.

Turtle_Bot

Pelanora wrote: »

Lighting is the identity, but the lightning execute is terrible, the staff is not favoured, and the others...well. Not so much this.

The shock damage abilities (and staves) definitely need some modernizing. The main abilities that look like they would be a lightning bolt that strikes down enemies is lightning flood, but that's a ground based DoT instead of a single target spammable and the execute, which has plenty of reliability issues.
Also strange how Overload launches orbs at the target (LA) or looks like the image (HA), the LA version should visually be a short quick bolt of lightning that goes from the casters hands to the target nearly instantly (think force pulse), not the slow travelling orb that it currently is. It's supposed to be lightning, how is lightning that slow and easy to dodge makes zero sense.

Also, it's kinda weird how sorcerer is the lightning damage class but needs to use a flame staff to get the most dps due to being mostly single target damage abilities meanwhile DK which is supposed to be the flame damage class can use both flame and lightning staves effectively since DK has good AoE and single target options.

This is part of the reason I hate the current single target/AoE split for the staves and reckon they should just buff all damage slightly (say 5-6% buff) but then buff their respective elemental types by a larger amount (say 10%) instead. The current way the staves work just makes zero sense, lore wise, thematically or even gameplay wise with what their respective themed classes are trying to do.

Well except for frost staff and frost warden where both are trying to freeze enemies in place with slightly lower damage but with strong debuffs and utility.

Aces-High-82

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

Lighting is the identity, but the lightning execute is terrible, the staff is not favoured, and the others...well. Not so much this.

The shock damage abilities (and staves) definitely need some modernizing. The main abilities that look like they would be a lightning bolt that strikes down enemies is lightning flood, but that's a ground based DoT instead of a single target spammable and the execute, which has plenty of reliability issues.
Also strange how Overload launches orbs at the target (LA) or looks like the image (HA), the LA version should visually be a short quick bolt of lightning that goes from the casters hands to the target nearly instantly (think force pulse), not the slow travelling orb that it currently is. It's supposed to be lightning, how is lightning that slow and easy to dodge makes zero sense.

Also, it's kinda weird how sorcerer is the lightning damage class but needs to use a flame staff to get the most dps due to being mostly single target damage abilities meanwhile DK which is supposed to be the flame damage class can use both flame and lightning staves effectively since DK has good AoE and single target options.

This is part of the reason I hate the current single target/AoE split for the staves and reckon they should just buff all damage slightly (say 5-6% buff) but then buff their respective elemental types by a larger amount (say 10%) instead. The current way the staves work just makes zero sense, lore wise, thematically or even gameplay wise with what their respective themed classes are trying to do.

Well except for frost staff and frost warden where both are trying to freeze enemies in place with slightly lower damage but with strong debuffs and utility.

Ppl should really flock away from the concept of being a ranged caster and shields. Given the limited range of Streak and the snail like projectile speed of cfrag staying on top of your target opens up way more options to be successfull. If vamp Aetherial spammable is a good option and I don't really see why not to run 2h/dw on any spec except ice warden recently. Destro is such underwhelming and since the LA nerf in U35 they are really just that you bring a stick while the opponent wields a sword to the fight.

Turtle_Bot

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

Lighting is the identity, but the lightning execute is terrible, the staff is not favoured, and the others...well. Not so much this.

The shock damage abilities (and staves) definitely need some modernizing. The main abilities that look like they would be a lightning bolt that strikes down enemies is lightning flood, but that's a ground based DoT instead of a single target spammable and the execute, which has plenty of reliability issues.
Also strange how Overload launches orbs at the target (LA) or looks like the image (HA), the LA version should visually be a short quick bolt of lightning that goes from the casters hands to the target nearly instantly (think force pulse), not the slow travelling orb that it currently is. It's supposed to be lightning, how is lightning that slow and easy to dodge makes zero sense.

Also, it's kinda weird how sorcerer is the lightning damage class but needs to use a flame staff to get the most dps due to being mostly single target damage abilities meanwhile DK which is supposed to be the flame damage class can use both flame and lightning staves effectively since DK has good AoE and single target options.

This is part of the reason I hate the current single target/AoE split for the staves and reckon they should just buff all damage slightly (say 5-6% buff) but then buff their respective elemental types by a larger amount (say 10%) instead. The current way the staves work just makes zero sense, lore wise, thematically or even gameplay wise with what their respective themed classes are trying to do.

Well except for frost staff and frost warden where both are trying to freeze enemies in place with slightly lower damage but with strong debuffs and utility.

Ppl should really flock away from the concept of being a ranged caster and shields. Given the limited range of Streak and the snail like projectile speed of cfrag staying on top of your target opens up way more options to be successfull. If vamp Aetherial spammable is a good option and I don't really see why not to run 2h/dw on any spec except ice warden recently. Destro is such underwhelming and since the LA nerf in U35 they are really just that you bring a stick while the opponent wields a sword to the fight.

DW resto is what I ran back in U33, it was fun, no shields, healing was enough to not be at a severe disadvantage, but definitely not OP and the damage was decent, especially since I wasn't running procs either. Then resto heals got nerfed because ball groups were abusing the infinite heal stacking and magsorc has just been a very inferior stamsorc ever since.

axi

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Reading threads like this one makes me agree with devs decision to not take players suggestions under consideration when making balance decisions. These changes wouldn't bring magsorc "on par" they would buff him through the roof. Magsorc realistically needs like 4-5 tweaks to be on par with others while one of said tweaks is a nerf to streak, a real nerf not the one proposed by OP which is basically replacing disruptive part of streak with more evasivness while also giving sorc more base defense from other abilities. it's like 2014-2016 havn't learned people anything.

Nb, dk and Templar were all buffed through the roof recently. Nb is buffed beyond god mode

Why is there a problem only with sorc ?

The game was way more fun in 2016. Ask any veteran

Balance and proc sets have ruined it long enough

And with all the changes proposed in this thread sorc would be stronger than all these 3 mentioned classes in their prime time combined(maybe excluding DK from 2014). Also please stop repeating argument that "sorc needs to become brokenly OP because ZoS buffed other classes more or less at some point". It's kida silly.

It's always a problem when some class gets overbuffed but why it's a bigger problem with sorc? Because of streak and shields. Having acces to these two while getting rest of the defense and offense comparable or even better than others is beyond broken. And this is excatly what would happen if all mentioned in this thread changes would be added to the class.

I am a veteran. I play continuously since beta. Pre 2017 holds just a sentimental value but things in general were neither better or worse than right now. They were just different.

Proc sets were already present in the game in 2016 and before. Balance was bad since day one.

Do pvp’ers like to play balanced classes ? There is no uniqueness left in any class except nb maybe.

Why is my argument silly ? There are ways to make a class OP without being a problem. You need to look at pre 2017 for that.
Raise the ceiling and make the class OP.

Can't say for everyone because for example You seem to obviously hate concept of balanced classes and want sorc to just become OP but me personally yes I like when things lean more towards balance than just straight broken metas. No uniqness? Most of the classes still have unique features and playstyles. Fact that these features are not insanely OP doesnt mean they're not there.

It's silly because it brings game nowhere. People have been complaing about lack of balance for almost 9 years yet Your solution is to continue that path just for the sake of You having fun on a sorc for few patches when it would become top dog. When class becomes OP that is a problem. OP by definition means that things went wrong and developer made mistake by giving class too much. Pre 2017 era also had issues with lack of balance. Sometimes smaller sometimes bigger than right now. Funnily enough ceiling was raised since back then so You should be happy.

A noob nb like me can 1vx like a vet and you are still talking about a raised ceiling. I quit the game several weeks back because it doesn’t make sense playing any other class

Fact is pvp population growth has been declining steadily for the past 2 years
Fact is balance discussions only seem to arise when the class in question is sorc
Fact is there is no roadmap from zos to buff sorc yet and you are already claiming sorc might become op.
Fact is players pvp for fun and not balance. Fun factor has eroded away since 2017

Sure we can balance this game but fact is you will be the only one left playing

It is You who is talking about raised ceiling. As strong as nb is there are still classes who can deal with him. Majority of people is just average in pvp so it's obvious overbuffed class have easier time to 1vX, even when someone playing it have more experience on some other weaker class. Still that doesn't bring any point into the sorc topic. All Your arguments for now can be cumulated into saying that sorc needs to become OP because nb is OP right now which really brings us nowhere.

PvP population is declining for longer than 2 years. Major reason for that is poor server performance, lack of new content and lack of balance which funnily enough You want to continue.

No, balance discussions happens to all classes. Even right now there are active threads discuissing balance of classes other than sorc. There is for example thread about templar underperforming after recent patch or about corrosive armor being too strong. With enough time You would find threads talking about every class from last 30 days.

There is no need for a roadmap from ZoS. It's not a topic of this thread. This thread is about specific changes being added to sorc kit and I commented on that particular changes saying that they would make sorc OP based on what we've already seen in the past. Sorc with base defense and offenswe comparable or better than other classes and streak on top of that will become OP. That is not a speculation, it's a fact.

it's funny that You claim people play PvP for fun not for balance but at the same time You claim You stopped playing because You are not happy with current balance that favours nb. Kinda ironic.

Your assumption is that making sorc skills OP is a problem. That is an incorrect assumption by you and the rest of the “ let’s not buff sorc brigade “

Pre 2017 : Make class defining skills OP in this game. This makes the game fun. It makes you want to play more than one class. Op skills affect only the players who use that skill so it’s not a real problem as long as other players have skills in their toolkit and which are equally unique and strong

Post 2017 : Release broken gear sets which do damage and healing for you. Gear sets can be worn by anyone so it becomes an actual problem. It becomes worse when those sets are behind a paywall. The game becomes boring when everyone is wearing the same sets and your actual class skills are rubbish which the state of the game right now. Nb is the only class with OP skills right now.

Pre 2017 the skill ceiling was automatically higher due to less reliance on gear sets.

In conclusion overbuffing class skills from any class to bring them to par with nb is not gonna cause an actual problem. Relying more on class skills than gear sets will make the game fun again. Currently no one wants to play sorc because class skills are thrash.

No my assumption is not incorrect and there are proffs for it already in the game history. Whenever sorc becomes OP it breaks the game beyond what happens when other classes are OP. Adding magicka detonation to the game? Sorc brokenly OP because one shot combos. Buffing master destro? Sorc OP because acces to high dmg stun used as spammable. Changing rune cage to deal dmg also when enemy breaks free? Sorc brokenly OP because that tiny bit of damage is all what sorc needed to nuke people with already strong rune cage. Sorc is the only class that despite taking massive hits to its core defining abilities still remained strong for years while small buffs or addition in the meantime were making it periodically OP despite getting constant nerfs.

Pre 2017 had already multiple nerfs to class defining abilities because game was not fun for example with sorcs streaking forever or always being protected by shields because they lasted 20 seconds. OP skills affect everyone. problem with sorc is that there is nothing that can close to streak. this skill completly changes ruleset for that class compared to others.

Broken gear sets were in the game since first days of the game existance. It's obvious that with more sets being released the number of combos and power creep of setups will go up. 2017 is not any time stamp in that matter. One of the most infamous proc set combos which was viper+tremorscale+blackrose/widowmaker was introduced in 2016. Pre 2017 there were also metas and people were using similar setups. More similar than past 2017 to be honest but that is not suprising considering less set options.

Your conclusion is wrong. Nightblade needs to be tuned down not other way around. Overbuffing everyone to be on pair with already overbuffed top dog will just cause even bigger balance issues like continuing tank meta. it will be super fun to have all those OP features and not being able to kill enyone right? You kinda contradict Yourself here because one time You claim that game before all these buffs and additions was more fun and skill based, yet now You want to overbuff everyone dumbing gameplay down in the procces. Class skills and gear sets are not existing in a vacuum. They complement each other. Saying "buff skills nerf sets" is kinda silly and changes nothing if lack of balance will be still present. Just look at no CP campaign, it also have balance issues despite having les sets accesible and being more skill based by Your logic.

axi

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

No, balance discussions happens to all classes. Even right now there are active threads discuissing balance of classes other than sorc. There is for example thread about templar underperforming after recent patch or about corrosive armor being too strong. With enough time You would find threads talking about every class from last 30 days.

I do agree that there will always be balance threads about every single class and there definitely are quite a few about templar at the moment.

The main issue with this argument though is that sorcerer is the only class that consistently attracts the "<insert class here> will be too op with any buffs at all" comments on threads about the class's balance, meanwhile the threads for other classes barely get a mention of that despite the results of the various DK, NB, Plar and Warden overbuffs over the past 2 years.

All of the other classes are only ever complained about after they get their buffs implemented, never before they get buffs even announced, let alone implemented, unlike sorcs who consistently get complaints of "being OP" when even the slightest mention of buffs comes up, even when the class is the weakest class in the game by a large margin.

It's this attitude of "sorc is always OP that we must all be concerned if the class gets any buffs" is why the class is so lackluster at the moment. Especially when combined with the fact that the pets create such a split between very strong for pve, but borderline useless for pvp.

Examples of the effects this attitude has had on the class in the past, are as follows:

- Rework shields to scale with damage like healing does, nope too OP for the forum commenters, so its scrapped and shields are left on the old max mag formula (they even tried to give shields a cast time in the past too....)

- give sorc a reliable instant cast heal that every other class (even nb) already has, nope too OP for the forum commenters, so it's never considered and sorcs are the only remaining class with harsh downsides and clunky, or non synergistic mechanics on all of their heals

- sorc damage is very unreliable without a proper reliable targeted stun (e.g. similar to javelin or fossilize), nope too OP for the forum commenters, as a result rune cage/defensive rune is never allowed to be considered for buffs/reworks despite being completely useless, frags travel speed got nerfed (made slower), frags proc chance also reduced because "stam can use it now" and the counters to the class offense (dodge, etc) were made cheaper to the point of being essentially free.

- crystal weapon still not strong enough to compete with other stamina spammables, gets buffed, then immediately nerfed into a worse spot than it was originally in the following patch due to being combined with a bugged armor set with the bugged armor set doing the heavy lifting of carrying that build. The rest of the class's kit that was being used for niche, unique or fun builds also receives harsh nerfs.

resulted in the current bad state of the class now and despite clearly needing buffing, apparently its not allowed to even be considered because the class will become too OP.

Meanwhile

Magblade was in a bad spot, but stamblade was in a good spot, nightblade (both mag and stam) gets given
- +10% unique damage increase or guaranteed crit on spammable (which stacks with their existing unique +20% damage increase from incap)
- both major + minor versions for expedition, courage, cowardice and maim
- reliable burst heal that matches tank class heals and provides mending
- 2 very strong HoT abilities
- delayed burst that can almost 1 shot most enemies on its own that also has a full heal that ignores battle spirit on kill among other strong buffs
- got to better time its stun from stealth to allow for better weaving into the combo to burst enemies down more reliably
On top of all this
- it got to keep both invis and shade at full power (which have been just as problematic as streak in pvp for years now)
- and no nerfs to the other ways to play the class (see bowblade, brawlblade, ganker, etc) that were already in a good spot and not in need of a buff

Then once the buffs went through and the class was proven to be obviously OP (especially the still currently S-tier hybrid blade), the only nerf it got was 1 of its HoTs got reduced to a more balanced value. The rest of the clearly overtuned kit didnt get adjusted for 2 patches in a row now and unlikely to be changed for a while yet.

There were no comments (that I saw) before the NB buffs got released on the PTS about "NB will be OP if given any buffs". In fact, everyone was cheering on for buffs to magblade, despite stamblade being in a good spot still and invis and shade being just as OP/problematic as streak in pvp.
Can you see the similarities for blade and sorc here and why this issue is so contentious? mag sucks, stam good, but the difference, it's ok (and encouraged) for nb to receive buffs, but it's not ok (must be careful) for sorc to receive buffs.

Sorcs don't need to be made as OP as nb was, that's obvious. But at least allow magsorc players the opportunity to dream big on their theoretical and suggested buffs without being harassed about the class "being OP" like the opportunity that was given to blades, dks and magden players in the past and that plar players are being afforded currently.

That way the class might actually get something well thought out and playable that lasts longer than 1 patch and can be fine tuned over the course of the PTS instead of occasionally receiving rushed token gestures that get immediately taken away 1 patch later because of an unintended interaction or a clearly overtuned/bugged set or mythic.

it's a lonmg post so I will just respond to the core issue being mentioned here which is why sorc is always more problematic to get strong portion of buffs than other classes.

Reason for that is really simple. Streak and shields. These two things make sorc completely different than other 5 classes. Especially streak makes things completly different. yes we can look for similarities between sorc and nb and generalise that they both are evasive classes but nb evasiveness is not the same as sorc evasivness and nb in it's core is a meele class that needs to get up close to engage and finish the fight which separates it from magsorc. Streak and shields allows to completly change both offensive and defensive playstyle when compared to others very often allowing for higher room of error.

Yes sorc recived many indirect and direct nerfs throughout the years but isnt it funny that despite getting these nerfs for a long time he was still remaining one of and sometimes the strongest setup? Other classes could get one nerf and that was enough to kick them few places down the tier list but sorc to get to that point required years of nerfs and being left behind. And the same thing apply to buffs. You show how many buffs other classes recived and how it made them OP but that is excatly the point. Look for example at nb. It needed 2 years of constant buffs including game changing ones like getting spammable burstheal and getting bunch of damage and defense buffs everywhere it was possible to become OP. Look at DK when it became OP. Class needed series of gamechaning buffs to sustain and dmg to get to that point. Like literally almost every important part of the kit was strongly buffed.

Now let's look at magsorc last time when it become brokenly OP which was during summerset. Sorc had to recive long list of game changing buffs back than right? Well no, it was literally one change that caused that which was changing rune cage to also deal dmg when enemy breaks free from it. One change! That was and still iss an issue with sorc compared to others. Other classes needs to recive either some series of powerfull gamechaning buffs or some super strong change to become OP, for sorc 1-2 decent change may be enough to become OP. It happened with magicka detonation, it happened with master destro, it happened with pirate skeleton. One gear or skill change is enough to push sorc from strong to brokenly OP. Due to how different sorc is to other classes because of shields and streak but also due to having execure and burst combo working differently than on other classes it takes way less changes to make sorc OP.

As long as sorc have streak and shields it needs different approach than other classes because it needs way less than others to become OP and giving him as much as others got, will make sorc way more OP than others during their prime.

Turtle_Bot

axi wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

No, balance discussions happens to all classes. Even right now there are active threads discuissing balance of classes other than sorc. There is for example thread about templar underperforming after recent patch or about corrosive armor being too strong. With enough time You would find threads talking about every class from last 30 days.

I do agree that there will always be balance threads about every single class and there definitely are quite a few about templar at the moment.

The main issue with this argument though is that sorcerer is the only class that consistently attracts the "<insert class here> will be too op with any buffs at all" comments on threads about the class's balance, meanwhile the threads for other classes barely get a mention of that despite the results of the various DK, NB, Plar and Warden overbuffs over the past 2 years.

All of the other classes are only ever complained about after they get their buffs implemented, never before they get buffs even announced, let alone implemented, unlike sorcs who consistently get complaints of "being OP" when even the slightest mention of buffs comes up, even when the class is the weakest class in the game by a large margin.

It's this attitude of "sorc is always OP that we must all be concerned if the class gets any buffs" is why the class is so lackluster at the moment. Especially when combined with the fact that the pets create such a split between very strong for pve, but borderline useless for pvp.

Examples of the effects this attitude has had on the class in the past, are as follows:

- Rework shields to scale with damage like healing does, nope too OP for the forum commenters, so its scrapped and shields are left on the old max mag formula (they even tried to give shields a cast time in the past too....)

- give sorc a reliable instant cast heal that every other class (even nb) already has, nope too OP for the forum commenters, so it's never considered and sorcs are the only remaining class with harsh downsides and clunky, or non synergistic mechanics on all of their heals

- sorc damage is very unreliable without a proper reliable targeted stun (e.g. similar to javelin or fossilize), nope too OP for the forum commenters, as a result rune cage/defensive rune is never allowed to be considered for buffs/reworks despite being completely useless, frags travel speed got nerfed (made slower), frags proc chance also reduced because "stam can use it now" and the counters to the class offense (dodge, etc) were made cheaper to the point of being essentially free.

- crystal weapon still not strong enough to compete with other stamina spammables, gets buffed, then immediately nerfed into a worse spot than it was originally in the following patch due to being combined with a bugged armor set with the bugged armor set doing the heavy lifting of carrying that build. The rest of the class's kit that was being used for niche, unique or fun builds also receives harsh nerfs.

resulted in the current bad state of the class now and despite clearly needing buffing, apparently its not allowed to even be considered because the class will become too OP.

Meanwhile

Magblade was in a bad spot, but stamblade was in a good spot, nightblade (both mag and stam) gets given
- +10% unique damage increase or guaranteed crit on spammable (which stacks with their existing unique +20% damage increase from incap)
- both major + minor versions for expedition, courage, cowardice and maim
- reliable burst heal that matches tank class heals and provides mending
- 2 very strong HoT abilities
- delayed burst that can almost 1 shot most enemies on its own that also has a full heal that ignores battle spirit on kill among other strong buffs
- got to better time its stun from stealth to allow for better weaving into the combo to burst enemies down more reliably
On top of all this
- it got to keep both invis and shade at full power (which have been just as problematic as streak in pvp for years now)
- and no nerfs to the other ways to play the class (see bowblade, brawlblade, ganker, etc) that were already in a good spot and not in need of a buff

Then once the buffs went through and the class was proven to be obviously OP (especially the still currently S-tier hybrid blade), the only nerf it got was 1 of its HoTs got reduced to a more balanced value. The rest of the clearly overtuned kit didnt get adjusted for 2 patches in a row now and unlikely to be changed for a while yet.

There were no comments (that I saw) before the NB buffs got released on the PTS about "NB will be OP if given any buffs". In fact, everyone was cheering on for buffs to magblade, despite stamblade being in a good spot still and invis and shade being just as OP/problematic as streak in pvp.
Can you see the similarities for blade and sorc here and why this issue is so contentious? mag sucks, stam good, but the difference, it's ok (and encouraged) for nb to receive buffs, but it's not ok (must be careful) for sorc to receive buffs.

Sorcs don't need to be made as OP as nb was, that's obvious. But at least allow magsorc players the opportunity to dream big on their theoretical and suggested buffs without being harassed about the class "being OP" like the opportunity that was given to blades, dks and magden players in the past and that plar players are being afforded currently.

That way the class might actually get something well thought out and playable that lasts longer than 1 patch and can be fine tuned over the course of the PTS instead of occasionally receiving rushed token gestures that get immediately taken away 1 patch later because of an unintended interaction or a clearly overtuned/bugged set or mythic.

it's a lonmg post so I will just respond to the core issue being mentioned here which is why sorc is always more problematic to get strong portion of buffs than other classes.

Reason for that is really simple. Streak and shields. These two things make sorc completely different than other 5 classes. Especially streak makes things completly different. yes we can look for similarities between sorc and nb and generalise that they both are evasive classes but nb evasiveness is not the same as sorc evasivness and nb in it's core is a meele class that needs to get up close to engage and finish the fight which separates it from magsorc. Streak and shields allows to completly change both offensive and defensive playstyle when compared to others very often allowing for higher room of error.

Yes sorc recived many indirect and direct nerfs throughout the years but isnt it funny that despite getting these nerfs for a long time he was still remaining one of and sometimes the strongest setup? Other classes could get one nerf and that was enough to kick them few places down the tier list but sorc to get to that point required years of nerfs and being left behind. And the same thing apply to buffs. You show how many buffs other classes recived and how it made them OP but that is excatly the point. Look for example at nb. It needed 2 years of constant buffs including game changing ones like getting spammable burstheal and getting bunch of damage and defense buffs everywhere it was possible to become OP. Look at DK when it became OP. Class needed series of gamechaning buffs to sustain and dmg to get to that point. Like literally almost every important part of the kit was strongly buffed.

Now let's look at magsorc last time when it become brokenly OP which was during summerset. Sorc had to recive long list of game changing buffs back than right? Well no, it was literally one change that caused that which was changing rune cage to also deal dmg when enemy breaks free from it. One change! That was and still iss an issue with sorc compared to others. Other classes needs to recive either some series of powerfull gamechaning buffs or some super strong change to become OP, for sorc 1-2 decent change may be enough to become OP. It happened with magicka detonation, it happened with master destro, it happened with pirate skeleton. One gear or skill change is enough to push sorc from strong to brokenly OP. Due to how different sorc is to other classes because of shields and streak but also due to having execure and burst combo working differently than on other classes it takes way less changes to make sorc OP.

As long as sorc have streak and shields it needs different approach than other classes because it needs way less than others to become OP and giving him as much as others got, will make sorc way more OP than others during their prime.

You are giving shields far too much credit, if shields truly were that OP, plars would be running their shields on a shield stacking build instead of or alongside their heals, the same shields that plars have had for years now which do far more than sorc shields do, which they also still had even with their very strong healing and defensive capabilities.
There's a reason that plars never bothered with their shields outside of niche builds, healing is just stronger, that is fact. I can guarantee you that if sorc had a proper heal the the majority of players of the class wouldn't bother with its shields outside of those who really like the shield abilities.

That leaves the only unique thing about the sorc kit being streak. So streak is apparently an issue, but shade (which works vertically, horizontally, ignores LoS and terrain/pathing and has a larger range than streak too) is apparently not an issue. Or what about invis, with how bad performance gets, invis is practically 100% mitigation and a spammable disengage + re-engage on demand, just like streak, and just like streak, the only "reliable" counter to invis is pots (detect for invis, immo for streak). The fighters guild and mages guild abilities have a horribly small radius and cost far too much, especially considering how unreliable they are (they state that enemies cannot go back into stealth, but NB constantly stealth right next to the caster of those abilities and while being affected by those abilities as well).
Neither shade nor invis have any downsides to them, shade even provides a DoT and minor maim (5% mitigation) and invis procs major resolve and a guaranteed crit, but apparently those 2 abilities aren't problematic enough to warrant calls for care around buffing NB.

You talk about melee vs range damage, I would agree on that IF hard counters to range abilities hadn't been made so obscenely free over the past few years, not to mention that range abilities have also been hard nerfed by a flat 10% reduced damage across the board to account for their range (that's active abilities only, not even counting how much stronger the melee weapon passives are overall compared to staves and even bows).
Dodge roll is currently the cheapest it has ever been, as is block. Sustain to keep those going infinitely has also never been as free as it is now either. Not to mention the ever popular sword and board ult that reflects sorcs entire burst combo, or crystalline slab that does the same while also stunning the sorc that dares to attempt their combo on the warden and provides a huge damage shield that equals all 3 shields combined on a dedicated shield stacking build.

Every time I hear about "need to be careful with buffing sorc", or "sorc is too OP" that person is always talking about a time period of half a decade or more ago. I have yet to read a single relevant point about modern, 2022 magsorc in 2022 ESO, but apparently because the class's unique factor was strong half a decade ago before the game caught up, the class must be treated with kid gloves when discussing ideas for potential buffs, despite the fact that the game has long since surpassed the class.

I do seriously hope that everyone calling for "care when buffing sorc" or "sorc is OP" is also calling for care on every single post for every single other class too, wouldn't want to discriminate against sorc now would we.

Every single class has unique and unfair abilities (some less obvious than others), yet it's apparently fine to suggest/discuss ideas and bring up pain points on every single other class, but its not ok to do so for sorc because of a stigma that hasn't been relevant for half a decade now.

Turtle_Bot

You all need to remember, this thread was about discussing potential ideas. Nothing in this thread was ever going to be a guaranteed thing. It was about putting ideas out there for the devs to think about, nothing was ever forcing them to do anything mentioned, let alone everything mentioned.

It was about bringing up a discussion about the current (bad) state of the class and put forth ideas on ways to improve it. If you don't have any ideas on how to improve the current state of the class and all you can do is complain about "sorc OP" or "be careful buffing the class because it was OP 5+ years ago" then kindly move on please, stop trying to derail what this thread is supposed to be about.

PhoenixGrey

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Reading threads like this one makes me agree with devs decision to not take players suggestions under consideration when making balance decisions. These changes wouldn't bring magsorc "on par" they would buff him through the roof. Magsorc realistically needs like 4-5 tweaks to be on par with others while one of said tweaks is a nerf to streak, a real nerf not the one proposed by OP which is basically replacing disruptive part of streak with more evasivness while also giving sorc more base defense from other abilities. it's like 2014-2016 havn't learned people anything.

Nb, dk and Templar were all buffed through the roof recently. Nb is buffed beyond god mode

Why is there a problem only with sorc ?

The game was way more fun in 2016. Ask any veteran

Balance and proc sets have ruined it long enough

And with all the changes proposed in this thread sorc would be stronger than all these 3 mentioned classes in their prime time combined(maybe excluding DK from 2014). Also please stop repeating argument that "sorc needs to become brokenly OP because ZoS buffed other classes more or less at some point". It's kida silly.

It's always a problem when some class gets overbuffed but why it's a bigger problem with sorc? Because of streak and shields. Having acces to these two while getting rest of the defense and offense comparable or even better than others is beyond broken. And this is excatly what would happen if all mentioned in this thread changes would be added to the class.

I am a veteran. I play continuously since beta. Pre 2017 holds just a sentimental value but things in general were neither better or worse than right now. They were just different.

Proc sets were already present in the game in 2016 and before. Balance was bad since day one.

Do pvp’ers like to play balanced classes ? There is no uniqueness left in any class except nb maybe.

Why is my argument silly ? There are ways to make a class OP without being a problem. You need to look at pre 2017 for that.
Raise the ceiling and make the class OP.

Can't say for everyone because for example You seem to obviously hate concept of balanced classes and want sorc to just become OP but me personally yes I like when things lean more towards balance than just straight broken metas. No uniqness? Most of the classes still have unique features and playstyles. Fact that these features are not insanely OP doesnt mean they're not there.

It's silly because it brings game nowhere. People have been complaing about lack of balance for almost 9 years yet Your solution is to continue that path just for the sake of You having fun on a sorc for few patches when it would become top dog. When class becomes OP that is a problem. OP by definition means that things went wrong and developer made mistake by giving class too much. Pre 2017 era also had issues with lack of balance. Sometimes smaller sometimes bigger than right now. Funnily enough ceiling was raised since back then so You should be happy.

A noob nb like me can 1vx like a vet and you are still talking about a raised ceiling. I quit the game several weeks back because it doesn’t make sense playing any other class

Fact is pvp population growth has been declining steadily for the past 2 years
Fact is balance discussions only seem to arise when the class in question is sorc
Fact is there is no roadmap from zos to buff sorc yet and you are already claiming sorc might become op.
Fact is players pvp for fun and not balance. Fun factor has eroded away since 2017

Sure we can balance this game but fact is you will be the only one left playing

It is You who is talking about raised ceiling. As strong as nb is there are still classes who can deal with him. Majority of people is just average in pvp so it's obvious overbuffed class have easier time to 1vX, even when someone playing it have more experience on some other weaker class. Still that doesn't bring any point into the sorc topic. All Your arguments for now can be cumulated into saying that sorc needs to become OP because nb is OP right now which really brings us nowhere.

PvP population is declining for longer than 2 years. Major reason for that is poor server performance, lack of new content and lack of balance which funnily enough You want to continue.

No, balance discussions happens to all classes. Even right now there are active threads discuissing balance of classes other than sorc. There is for example thread about templar underperforming after recent patch or about corrosive armor being too strong. With enough time You would find threads talking about every class from last 30 days.

There is no need for a roadmap from ZoS. It's not a topic of this thread. This thread is about specific changes being added to sorc kit and I commented on that particular changes saying that they would make sorc OP based on what we've already seen in the past. Sorc with base defense and offenswe comparable or better than other classes and streak on top of that will become OP. That is not a speculation, it's a fact.

it's funny that You claim people play PvP for fun not for balance but at the same time You claim You stopped playing because You are not happy with current balance that favours nb. Kinda ironic.

Your assumption is that making sorc skills OP is a problem. That is an incorrect assumption by you and the rest of the “ let’s not buff sorc brigade “

Pre 2017 : Make class defining skills OP in this game. This makes the game fun. It makes you want to play more than one class. Op skills affect only the players who use that skill so it’s not a real problem as long as other players have skills in their toolkit and which are equally unique and strong

Post 2017 : Release broken gear sets which do damage and healing for you. Gear sets can be worn by anyone so it becomes an actual problem. It becomes worse when those sets are behind a paywall. The game becomes boring when everyone is wearing the same sets and your actual class skills are rubbish which the state of the game right now. Nb is the only class with OP skills right now.

Pre 2017 the skill ceiling was automatically higher due to less reliance on gear sets.

In conclusion overbuffing class skills from any class to bring them to par with nb is not gonna cause an actual problem. Relying more on class skills than gear sets will make the game fun again. Currently no one wants to play sorc because class skills are thrash.

No my assumption is not incorrect and there are proffs for it already in the game history. Whenever sorc becomes OP it breaks the game beyond what happens when other classes are OP. Adding magicka detonation to the game? Sorc brokenly OP because one shot combos. Buffing master destro? Sorc OP because acces to high dmg stun used as spammable. Changing rune cage to deal dmg also when enemy breaks free? Sorc brokenly OP because that tiny bit of damage is all what sorc needed to nuke people with already strong rune cage. Sorc is the only class that despite taking massive hits to its core defining abilities still remained strong for years while small buffs or addition in the meantime were making it periodically OP despite getting constant nerfs.

Pre 2017 had already multiple nerfs to class defining abilities because game was not fun for example with sorcs streaking forever or always being protected by shields because they lasted 20 seconds. OP skills affect everyone. problem with sorc is that there is nothing that can close to streak. this skill completly changes ruleset for that class compared to others.

Broken gear sets were in the game since first days of the game existance. It's obvious that with more sets being released the number of combos and power creep of setups will go up. 2017 is not any time stamp in that matter. One of the most infamous proc set combos which was viper+tremorscale+blackrose/widowmaker was introduced in 2016. Pre 2017 there were also metas and people were using similar setups. More similar than past 2017 to be honest but that is not suprising considering less set options.

Your conclusion is wrong. Nightblade needs to be tuned down not other way around. Overbuffing everyone to be on pair with already overbuffed top dog will just cause even bigger balance issues like continuing tank meta. it will be super fun to have all those OP features and not being able to kill enyone right? You kinda contradict Yourself here because one time You claim that game before all these buffs and additions was more fun and skill based, yet now You want to overbuff everyone dumbing gameplay down in the procces. Class skills and gear sets are not existing in a vacuum. They complement each other. Saying "buff skills nerf sets" is kinda silly and changes nothing if lack of balance will be still present. Just look at no CP campaign, it also have balance issues despite having les sets accesible and being more skill based by Your logic.

There are plenty of ways to buff a class and raise the ceiling significantly.

Sorc relied on shields before and usually ran base resistances underneath shields.
Now every sorc can log into the game with 30k resists and every other class can log into the game with much more than that.

One example I can give to raise the ceiling. Running more health gives you bigger shields today. Instead shields could’ve been adjusted to make them bigger and stronger if you ran less health. It adds value to using shields and managing sustain. Right now I log in it’s 30k resists and can rely on my group for sustain.

I would also maintain that you can buff a class into oblivion as long you raise the ceiling. It also makes veterans play the game as there is always a next level to get to. Right now I can play nb as well as a vet and I have just played the class for a week. I am sure most players in the game feel that way.

Remember the point of the game is to have fun. Balance is a personal perspective and is not important. If a more balanced game was more fun no one would be complaining about lack of buffs on sorc

PhoenixGrey

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

You all need to remember, this thread was about discussing potential ideas. Nothing in this thread was ever going to be a guaranteed thing. It was about putting ideas out there for the devs to think about, nothing was ever forcing them to do anything mentioned, let alone everything mentioned.

It was about bringing up a discussion about the current (bad) state of the class and put forth ideas on ways to improve it. If you don't have any ideas on how to improve the current state of the class and all you can do is complain about "sorc OP" or "be careful buffing the class because it was OP 5+ years ago" then kindly move on please, stop trying to derail what this thread is supposed to be about.

The sorc OP brigade are basically NB potatoes who squabble to make sure their 5 second insta gib bow timer does not expire from sorc buffs

StaticWave

Tbh Crystal Weapon buff was too much. The current version is better than its original one, but also balanced.

Pelanora

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

Lighting is the identity, but the lightning execute is terrible, the staff is not favoured, and the others...well. Not so much this.

The shock damage abilities (and staves) definitely need some modernizing.
...

Also, it's kinda weird how sorcerer is the lightning damage class but needs to use a flame staff to get the most dps due to being mostly single target damage abilities meanwhile DK which is supposed to be the flame damage class can use both flame and lightning staves effectively since DK has good AoE and single target options.

Yes to everything you posted, and especially this.

I think sorc needs not just some percentage tweaks here and there or a new skill or two, it needs an overhaul. If we are to fight with lightning and familiars, then they could start with asking how could that look really cool in the 2020s.

And I also want lighting wings.

RemoryAzure

Pelanora wrote: »

And I also want lighting wings.

oh god please no i hate lightning form coz of transparency but this on top is gonna be a visual end of the class for me, wont be able to play it anymore

NordSwordnBoard

Daedric Protection passive changed from health recovery to magic recovery.

Expert summoner passive changed to either require ability slotted or just give us the health boost.

Persistence passive (adding duration to skills) should be tacked on to another passive and replaced with something boosting base stats.

I say start with passives; incremental improvements for the class not tied to the polarizing skills like streak and shields.

RemoryAzure

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

I say start with passives; incremental improvements for the class not tied to the polarizing skills like streak and shields.

sorc needs quality changes, not the numeric ones.

as i suggested a couple of pages ago:
- lightning flood to be attached to character for more aoe pressure with lightning forms
- rework 5% phys/shock damage passive into something ZoS did with warden, like 10% increase all (single and aoe) damage when holding shock staff and increase concussion proc damage
- make heal also proc when summoning matriarch, so when its killed, u dont need to waste 2 GCDs to heal once, just one, with a downside that the first heal will require full cast, and also reduce cast time to 0.8-1 sec
- any rework to encase/prison/mines would be good to get full pvp usability of a skill kit, but ill be happy with just reworks mentioned above

Pelanora

RemoryAzure wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

And I also want lighting wings.

i hate lightning form coz of transparency

If you hate lightning, how do you play it?

Wardens get them, DK get them, templars are swathed in sunlight... we just look like stupid batteries. It could form into something that looks like we have control over it, like wings. It would be just on one skill.

Pelanora

RemoryAzure wrote: »

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

I say start with passives; incremental improvements for the class not tied to the polarizing skills like streak and shields.

sorc needs quality changes, not the numeric ones.

as i suggested a couple of pages ago:
-
- make heal also proc when summoning matriarch, so when its killed, u dont need to waste 2 GCDs to heal once, just one, with a downside that the first heal will require full cast, and also reduce cast time to 0.8-1 sec

The heal should be it's own thing separate from the pets. The pets should be for tanking only, so those who don't want them still have access to the class heal.

RemoryAzure

Pelanora wrote: »

If you hate lightning, i don't think you SHOULD play it?

i love lightning. i hate lightning form. because its not lightning. it does not feel right, something is wrong with it. u can simply add more lightning effects but delete transparency and it is gonna be like 100 times better. even design-wise, whats the point of collecting armor styles and dyeing it when u wont ever see em anyway

Pelanora

Yes that's what i don't like either, just being all sparky. Looks stupid. When i say wings, i mean as a visual effect to a skill, and it can be faint, suggesting you're in control of the lightning youre channeling, not something as a means of zapping someone.

Anyway, i suspect this is the last thing they'd ever add, so a largely moot conversation.

But it shows the new effects they will develop in the other classes, which they dont think to carry over for sorc.