Sorc Pain Points and ideas on buffs, changes and reworks to skills to bring the class up to par.

Turtle_Bot

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

Daedric Protection passive changed from health recovery to magic recovery.

Expert summoner passive changed to either require ability slotted or just give us the health boost.

Persistence passive (adding duration to skills) should be tacked on to another passive and replaced with something boosting base stats.

I say start with passives; incremental improvements for the class not tied to the polarizing skills like streak and shields.

Daedric Protection:
I would just combine the capacitor passive (mag recovery) with the daedric protection passive and make them all 20% (nb gets 15% to all just for existing, this still requires something slotted so should be a bigger % to compensate for the condition) and make a completely new passive in the slot capacitor was in.

Expert Summoner:
Agreed with these changes, nb gets a scaling health boost (they usually sit around 9% due to wanting to have 3 or more of their good active skills slotted to increase this passive).

Persistence:
This passive needs something (as I stated in my OP, it revolves around block, but sorc typically wants to avoid damage, not face-tank it, hence why I made it work for dodging attacks as well)

Overall passives would be a good place to start, but there are other more serious issues surrounding the class than the passives that need looking into and fixing, those being defense/stun options that are not just streak and the reliability of abilities with how free the hard counters have become.

Turtle_Bot

RemoryAzure wrote: »

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

I say start with passives; incremental improvements for the class not tied to the polarizing skills like streak and shields.

sorc needs quality changes, not the numeric ones.

as i suggested a couple of pages ago:
- rework 5% phys/shock damage passive into something ZoS did with warden, like 10% increase all (single and aoe) damage when holding shock staff and increase concussion proc damage
- make heal also proc when summoning matriarch, so when its killed, u dont need to waste 2 GCDs to heal once, just one, with a downside that the first heal will require full cast, and also reduce cast time to 0.8-1 sec

The main thing I don't like about tying sorc to shock staff with a rework similar to wardens (although thematically it would be neat to see more lightning damage) is that lightning staves are the weakest staff (by a lot now) and not only that, but they only buff AoE damage, not single target damage while sorc almost exclusively uses single target, not AoE abilities so the staff just completely conflicts with the class and as such, the staff would also need a complete rework as well as a buff to make this option viable.

For the matriarch heal, there needs to be a good alternative to this, being tied to pets is fine for pet builds, but really stifles the other playstyles. Easiest fix is to make dark deal/conversion the main class burst heal and make matriarch the AoE heal similar to how plar has rushed ceremony/healing ritual (ST/AoE) for their healing options or cro has render flesh/life amid death (ST/AoE) for their healing options.

Turtle_Bot

RemoryAzure wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

And I also want lighting wings.

oh god please no i hate lightning form coz of transparency but this on top is gonna be a visual end of the class for me, wont be able to play it anymore

I have a love/hate relationship with the lightning form transparency.
I love looking like almost pure lightning, but when I do get a really nice outfit for my sorc, I want to show that off too.
Maybe if they made a toggle for making the character transparent or not while LF is active could solve this?

Pelanora

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

RemoryAzure wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

And I also want lighting wings.

oh god please no i hate lightning form coz of transparency but this on top is gonna be a visual end of the class for me, wont be able to play it anymore

I have a love/hate relationship with the lightning form transparency.
I love looking like almost pure lightning, but when I do get a really nice outfit for my sorc, I want to show that off too.
Maybe if they made a toggle for making the character transparent or not while LF is active could solve this?

It looks like electricity, but it doesn't look like lightning.

We look like we are throwing electricity like some human plasma globe or tesla coil. If it were elegantly done like the fire atronachs maybe....i think the designers distinguishing between electricity and lightning would be good, and id rather they stuck to lightning. Sorcs should just be able to call it down from the sky, and also channel it. But not be tesla coils.

axi

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

No, balance discussions happens to all classes. Even right now there are active threads discuissing balance of classes other than sorc. There is for example thread about templar underperforming after recent patch or about corrosive armor being too strong. With enough time You would find threads talking about every class from last 30 days.

I do agree that there will always be balance threads about every single class and there definitely are quite a few about templar at the moment.

The main issue with this argument though is that sorcerer is the only class that consistently attracts the "<insert class here> will be too op with any buffs at all" comments on threads about the class's balance, meanwhile the threads for other classes barely get a mention of that despite the results of the various DK, NB, Plar and Warden overbuffs over the past 2 years.

All of the other classes are only ever complained about after they get their buffs implemented, never before they get buffs even announced, let alone implemented, unlike sorcs who consistently get complaints of "being OP" when even the slightest mention of buffs comes up, even when the class is the weakest class in the game by a large margin.

It's this attitude of "sorc is always OP that we must all be concerned if the class gets any buffs" is why the class is so lackluster at the moment. Especially when combined with the fact that the pets create such a split between very strong for pve, but borderline useless for pvp.

Examples of the effects this attitude has had on the class in the past, are as follows:

- Rework shields to scale with damage like healing does, nope too OP for the forum commenters, so its scrapped and shields are left on the old max mag formula (they even tried to give shields a cast time in the past too....)

- give sorc a reliable instant cast heal that every other class (even nb) already has, nope too OP for the forum commenters, so it's never considered and sorcs are the only remaining class with harsh downsides and clunky, or non synergistic mechanics on all of their heals

- sorc damage is very unreliable without a proper reliable targeted stun (e.g. similar to javelin or fossilize), nope too OP for the forum commenters, as a result rune cage/defensive rune is never allowed to be considered for buffs/reworks despite being completely useless, frags travel speed got nerfed (made slower), frags proc chance also reduced because "stam can use it now" and the counters to the class offense (dodge, etc) were made cheaper to the point of being essentially free.

- crystal weapon still not strong enough to compete with other stamina spammables, gets buffed, then immediately nerfed into a worse spot than it was originally in the following patch due to being combined with a bugged armor set with the bugged armor set doing the heavy lifting of carrying that build. The rest of the class's kit that was being used for niche, unique or fun builds also receives harsh nerfs.

resulted in the current bad state of the class now and despite clearly needing buffing, apparently its not allowed to even be considered because the class will become too OP.

Meanwhile

Magblade was in a bad spot, but stamblade was in a good spot, nightblade (both mag and stam) gets given
- +10% unique damage increase or guaranteed crit on spammable (which stacks with their existing unique +20% damage increase from incap)
- both major + minor versions for expedition, courage, cowardice and maim
- reliable burst heal that matches tank class heals and provides mending
- 2 very strong HoT abilities
- delayed burst that can almost 1 shot most enemies on its own that also has a full heal that ignores battle spirit on kill among other strong buffs
- got to better time its stun from stealth to allow for better weaving into the combo to burst enemies down more reliably
On top of all this
- it got to keep both invis and shade at full power (which have been just as problematic as streak in pvp for years now)
- and no nerfs to the other ways to play the class (see bowblade, brawlblade, ganker, etc) that were already in a good spot and not in need of a buff

Then once the buffs went through and the class was proven to be obviously OP (especially the still currently S-tier hybrid blade), the only nerf it got was 1 of its HoTs got reduced to a more balanced value. The rest of the clearly overtuned kit didnt get adjusted for 2 patches in a row now and unlikely to be changed for a while yet.

There were no comments (that I saw) before the NB buffs got released on the PTS about "NB will be OP if given any buffs". In fact, everyone was cheering on for buffs to magblade, despite stamblade being in a good spot still and invis and shade being just as OP/problematic as streak in pvp.
Can you see the similarities for blade and sorc here and why this issue is so contentious? mag sucks, stam good, but the difference, it's ok (and encouraged) for nb to receive buffs, but it's not ok (must be careful) for sorc to receive buffs.

Sorcs don't need to be made as OP as nb was, that's obvious. But at least allow magsorc players the opportunity to dream big on their theoretical and suggested buffs without being harassed about the class "being OP" like the opportunity that was given to blades, dks and magden players in the past and that plar players are being afforded currently.

That way the class might actually get something well thought out and playable that lasts longer than 1 patch and can be fine tuned over the course of the PTS instead of occasionally receiving rushed token gestures that get immediately taken away 1 patch later because of an unintended interaction or a clearly overtuned/bugged set or mythic.

it's a lonmg post so I will just respond to the core issue being mentioned here which is why sorc is always more problematic to get strong portion of buffs than other classes.

Reason for that is really simple. Streak and shields. These two things make sorc completely different than other 5 classes. Especially streak makes things completly different. yes we can look for similarities between sorc and nb and generalise that they both are evasive classes but nb evasiveness is not the same as sorc evasivness and nb in it's core is a meele class that needs to get up close to engage and finish the fight which separates it from magsorc. Streak and shields allows to completly change both offensive and defensive playstyle when compared to others very often allowing for higher room of error.

Yes sorc recived many indirect and direct nerfs throughout the years but isnt it funny that despite getting these nerfs for a long time he was still remaining one of and sometimes the strongest setup? Other classes could get one nerf and that was enough to kick them few places down the tier list but sorc to get to that point required years of nerfs and being left behind. And the same thing apply to buffs. You show how many buffs other classes recived and how it made them OP but that is excatly the point. Look for example at nb. It needed 2 years of constant buffs including game changing ones like getting spammable burstheal and getting bunch of damage and defense buffs everywhere it was possible to become OP. Look at DK when it became OP. Class needed series of gamechaning buffs to sustain and dmg to get to that point. Like literally almost every important part of the kit was strongly buffed.

Now let's look at magsorc last time when it become brokenly OP which was during summerset. Sorc had to recive long list of game changing buffs back than right? Well no, it was literally one change that caused that which was changing rune cage to also deal dmg when enemy breaks free from it. One change! That was and still iss an issue with sorc compared to others. Other classes needs to recive either some series of powerfull gamechaning buffs or some super strong change to become OP, for sorc 1-2 decent change may be enough to become OP. It happened with magicka detonation, it happened with master destro, it happened with pirate skeleton. One gear or skill change is enough to push sorc from strong to brokenly OP. Due to how different sorc is to other classes because of shields and streak but also due to having execure and burst combo working differently than on other classes it takes way less changes to make sorc OP.

As long as sorc have streak and shields it needs different approach than other classes because it needs way less than others to become OP and giving him as much as others got, will make sorc way more OP than others during their prime.

You are giving shields far too much credit, if shields truly were that OP, plars would be running their shields on a shield stacking build instead of or alongside their heals, the same shields that plars have had for years now which do far more than sorc shields do, which they also still had even with their very strong healing and defensive capabilities.
There's a reason that plars never bothered with their shields outside of niche builds, healing is just stronger, that is fact. I can guarantee you that if sorc had a proper heal the the majority of players of the class wouldn't bother with its shields outside of those who really like the shield abilities.

That leaves the only unique thing about the sorc kit being streak. So streak is apparently an issue, but shade (which works vertically, horizontally, ignores LoS and terrain/pathing and has a larger range than streak too) is apparently not an issue. Or what about invis, with how bad performance gets, invis is practically 100% mitigation and a spammable disengage + re-engage on demand, just like streak, and just like streak, the only "reliable" counter to invis is pots (detect for invis, immo for streak). The fighters guild and mages guild abilities have a horribly small radius and cost far too much, especially considering how unreliable they are (they state that enemies cannot go back into stealth, but NB constantly stealth right next to the caster of those abilities and while being affected by those abilities as well).
Neither shade nor invis have any downsides to them, shade even provides a DoT and minor maim (5% mitigation) and invis procs major resolve and a guaranteed crit, but apparently those 2 abilities aren't problematic enough to warrant calls for care around buffing NB.

You talk about melee vs range damage, I would agree on that IF hard counters to range abilities hadn't been made so obscenely free over the past few years, not to mention that range abilities have also been hard nerfed by a flat 10% reduced damage across the board to account for their range (that's active abilities only, not even counting how much stronger the melee weapon passives are overall compared to staves and even bows).
Dodge roll is currently the cheapest it has ever been, as is block. Sustain to keep those going infinitely has also never been as free as it is now either. Not to mention the ever popular sword and board ult that reflects sorcs entire burst combo, or crystalline slab that does the same while also stunning the sorc that dares to attempt their combo on the warden and provides a huge damage shield that equals all 3 shields combined on a dedicated shield stacking build.

Every time I hear about "need to be careful with buffing sorc", or "sorc is too OP" that person is always talking about a time period of half a decade or more ago. I have yet to read a single relevant point about modern, 2022 magsorc in 2022 ESO, but apparently because the class's unique factor was strong half a decade ago before the game caught up, the class must be treated with kid gloves when discussing ideas for potential buffs, despite the fact that the game has long since surpassed the class.

I do seriously hope that everyone calling for "care when buffing sorc" or "sorc is OP" is also calling for care on every single post for every single other class too, wouldn't want to discriminate against sorc now would we.

Every single class has unique and unfair abilities (some less obvious than others), yet it's apparently fine to suggest/discuss ideas and bring up pain points on every single other class, but its not ok to do so for sorc because of a stigma that hasn't been relevant for half a decade now.

No I am not giving shields too many credit. I still remember being able to run 19k HP on my magsorc and being able to survive way more than people with 30k+ HP. That was happening because shields unlike heals can be also an HP extension. Back in the days You could run that under 20k HP setup and cover Your health with over 25k shields. This is why ZoS started to nerf certain aspects of shields one after another. And Your argument about templar shield is horribly wrong. They were never using their shield because it scales purely from max HP and it have smaller scaling from max HP than sorc's shield from max magicka so in order to reach shield value similar to sorc with 35k magicka templars would need 45k HP and at that point having shield was kinda pointless unless You were one of mentioned by You niche setups that were stacking max HP (and magicka regen) as high as they could to spam blazing shield and get decent enough dmg out of it because dmg of that ability was scaling from shield value. It had nothing to do with heals being stronger than shields. And funnily enough back in the day when harness magicka was a powerfull shield everyone was running with it even classes that had acces to heals so Your argument is kinda invalid.

Now the classic sorc's escape goat argument which is "but nb have shade and cloak". It's kinda silly argumentation. Yes nb have shade and cloak but when You are trying to disprove strenght of 1 ability by bringing up strenght of 2 other abilities combined You really contradict Yourself. And You only compare shade+cloak to streak teleporting part like the strongest stun in the game wouldn't be there also. When it comes to shade this skill while being powerfull tool, alone is nowhere near streak unless we are talking about fights in some very closed areas where walls can be used as an adventage like resource towers in Cyrodill. What makes that skill diferent from streak is that You need preparation time in order for it to work. You can't just click it once and get the result. You need to place the shade, bait enemy away from it and than when situation calls for escape You can use it but You can do it only withinh 20 seconds of shade's duration and only within ability's range. And if You want to use it again You need to repeat the procces. Streak does not have any of this limitations You just use it whenever You need it, only drawback is that You cannot spam it endlesly. Also yes while shade is working vertically and horizontally, streak allows You to reach places that nobody else can reach or reach certain areas way faster than other classes will require to follow. When it comes to ignoring LoS well streak stun also does that to some extent. Shade may have bigger range but 2-3 streaks are still better way of escaping. Shade adventage is not is open field but in closed, tight areas. When it comes to cloak well yes it's a crutch in current game design but luckily 90% of nb players suck at the class because as strong as cloak is it still requires some skill to use it, more skill than streak for sure. As for abilities that counter cloak radiant magelight is really decent for that although I was never a fan of the idea to slot specific abilities just to counter 1 ability of other class. It's kinda forced game desing.

The biggest hard counter to range abilities which were dk wings is shadow of its former self and basically can be called a dead ability. The only real hard counter to range abilities right now is warden's crystalised shield and even that isn't some S+ tier counter like wings used to be. S&b ulti is not a "hard counter". By that logic we can call negate a hard counter to magicka abilities and ultimates. Damage nerf to range abilities is perfectly justified. You dont expect to stand 40 meters away from enemy and hit him as hard as he would hit you standing 5 meters from You, don't you? And lets be honest in peoperly made setup that 10% is barely noticable. it's an argument just for the sake of having an argument.

Neither dodge roll or block is the cheapest it even been. There was a time when dodge had no cost penalty and classes like nb could literally spam it 10-15 times in a row. Block also had it's better days when for example stamina regen was not halted while blocking or when You could stack block cost reduction sources way more efficiently because heavy armor had block cost reduction passives. There were a times when You could literally permablock forever.

That class unique factor is still strong. Just ask hybrid sorcs or stamsorcs. It is in fact the strongest ability in the game. This is why sorcs always need to be looked at way more carefully than other classes wheter it was 5 years ago or right now. Other classes need to use multiple skills and core combat moves just to get half of what streak is giving to sorc. If rest of the sorc's kit goes close to other classes kits it's a recipe for disaster. As long as magsorc have streak (and shields) the rule stays the same wheter 5 years ago, today or in 5 years from now. I guess devs recognised that issue and are very hesitant to repeat mistakes of previous years.

Can't say for everyone but me personally yes, when I see that certain class (no matter what class that is) is getting too strong change I usually call it out. Do I call on "every single buff"? No, I also have other things to do outside of the forum. By that logic I can ask You, do You call for a buff on every single underperforming ability on every single class? Because if not that is also discrimination by Your standards.

Yes every single class have unique strong ability. But streak is the strongest of them all leaving the rest far behind. With all its drawbacks and downsides it's still the strongest ability there is. I have no issue with discussing sorc changes. The thing is most of the people who discusses them want to bring sorcs kit on pair with others while also keeping streak untouched or barely changed which is a collosal mistake which has been proven numerous times already.

RemoryAzure

axi wrote: »

Damage nerf to range abilities is perfectly justified. You dont expect to stand 40 meters away from enemy and hit him as hard as he would hit you standing 5 meters from You, don't you? And lets be honest in peoperly made setup that 10% is barely noticable.

uhh, no, i think
melees have way better weapon passives and being combined with melee abilities base damage AND their effects (like overall still insane dmg of jabs/whip dmg stacking/surprise attack guaranteed sundered) they do about 20-30% damage more than ranged builds. yes there is an advantage in range, but most of the small fights happen in melee range, due to gap closers being available to everyone at any time. and another problem are mentioned ranged defense skills, which leave exactly zero chance to a ranged build to kill a melee one in 1v1 taken tank meta and high healing into consideration.

but atleast when not talking about ranged shields, this is extremely easy to fix - equalize the damage of (instant) melee and ranged spammables and just apply a hidden mechanic which will scale damage with range to deal up to 10-20% less dmg at ~40m mark.

and, just thought about it, instead increase the damage of casted ranged spammables (cfrags, bow, etc) at high distance to give them a niche to shine in, coz at close quarters and in small scale pvp, with LoS and disadvantage of being interrupted in mind, casted skills are quite... trash, at very least.

PhoenixGrey

StaticWave wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Literally just give them a burst heal scaling with max stats and keep everything else the same so they can drop shields, run better sets, and play into the healing path. A back bar consisting of Streak, Burst Heal, Rapid/Radiating Regen/Vigor, Dark Conversion, Armor Buff if not using Chudan, or another HoT if using Chudan, and the class's defense is set. Just look at how no cloak NB is played and apply the same defensive buffs. Not that hard..

Don't forget Sorc also has offensive heals with Crit Surge and Blood Magic. That's plenty of offensive and defensive heals to use with Streak. Sorc does not need a lot of buffs. It needs key buffs to fix its weakness, which is lack of good heals. The rest are nice, but not needed because it can make the class broken.

Shields are a part of mag sorc class identity

I can’t see an incentive to play the class without shields.

Probably run an ice warden or something if I really need to play mag. It’s much easier and more rewarding in outnumbered situations. It has a gazzalion times better defense right now and can still somewhat counter ZOS favorite god tier nightblade

Streak is not a good reason to play the class anymore unless they do something crazy like remove stacking cost

It’s like 20-30% of your identity, and that’s only because of the shield stacking build. Streak is the true identity of mag and stamsorc. When someone thinks of sorcs, they think of how sorcs can zip around the battlefield with Streak.

It just so happens that shield stacking sorcs are more popular because healing sorcs are utterly trash compared to other classes. I can guarantee you if sorcs had the same healing power as other classes, you would see A LOT more no-ward sorcs jn cyrodiil. In fact, you would probably rarely see a shield sorc again. I mean just look at how most NBs and DKs stopped using Dampened Ward when their heals got better.

I would probably play some other class or not play at all rather than play sorc without shields. It’s just not a mag sorc anymore. I m already forced to use crystal weapon as frag is just straight up garbage. Frag needs to hit atleast 50% harder or be a spammable for me to even consider using it.

I don’t play CP pvp on mag sorc anymore because I am forced to use vigor as pets are not reliable and shields are trash. My main heal is a stamina heal and my main Dps is crystal weapon. Am I a mag sorc ?

The days I enjoyed mag sorc the most were the dual wield days. I could just ignore the stam pool and rely on my mag pool for defense and damage. It was extremely strong as well when played correctly

Hybridization was the worst thing to ever happen in this game.

PhoenixGrey

axi wrote: »

I have no issue with discussing sorc changes. The thing is most of the people who discusses them want to bring sorcs kit on pair with others while also keeping streak untouched or barely changed which is a collosal mistake which has been proven numerous times already.

So overbuffing sorc is the only colossal mistake which can be made so far.

What about the rest which are already in the game ?

axi

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

I have no issue with discussing sorc changes. The thing is most of the people who discusses them want to bring sorcs kit on pair with others while also keeping streak untouched or barely changed which is a collosal mistake which has been proven numerous times already.

So overbuffing sorc is the only colossal mistake which can be made so far.

What about the rest which are already in the game ?

When it comes to collosal mistakes than yes. Overbuffing sorc while keeping streak relatively untouched is the biggest mistake possible PvP wise. Doesn't mean there were no other mistakes being made but we had this argument few times already. Fact that mistakes were made in the past on other classes does not justify overbuffing sorc. As for currently overbuffed features some deserve tuning down.

PhoenixGrey

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

I have no issue with discussing sorc changes. The thing is most of the people who discusses them want to bring sorcs kit on pair with others while also keeping streak untouched or barely changed which is a collosal mistake which has been proven numerous times already.

So overbuffing sorc is the only colossal mistake which can be made so far.

What about the rest which are already in the game ?

When it comes to collosal mistakes than yes. Overbuffing sorc while keeping streak relatively untouched is the biggest mistake possible PvP wise. Doesn't mean there were no other mistakes being made but we had this argument few times already. Fact that mistakes were made in the past on other classes does not justify overbuffing sorc. As for currently overbuffed features some deserve tuning down.

Let’s catch the lowest possible hanging fruit because it’s the easiest.

Your entire argument only holds value if everything else is ideally balanced and we are talking about overbuffing sorc. Right now as it stands mag sorc is the worst pvp class by a mile.

Also it’s just your opinion that sorc will be overbuffed without nerfing streak

I can also then state my opinion that we can start with blanket nerfs to nb by reducing all their damage by 30%. Because nb spammables like surprise attack hit harder than sorc ultimates.

axi

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

I have no issue with discussing sorc changes. The thing is most of the people who discusses them want to bring sorcs kit on pair with others while also keeping streak untouched or barely changed which is a collosal mistake which has been proven numerous times already.

So overbuffing sorc is the only colossal mistake which can be made so far.

What about the rest which are already in the game ?

When it comes to collosal mistakes than yes. Overbuffing sorc while keeping streak relatively untouched is the biggest mistake possible PvP wise. Doesn't mean there were no other mistakes being made but we had this argument few times already. Fact that mistakes were made in the past on other classes does not justify overbuffing sorc. As for currently overbuffed features some deserve tuning down.

Let’s catch the lowest possible hanging fruit because it’s the easiest.

Your entire argument only holds value if everything else is ideally balanced and we are talking about overbuffing sorc. Right now as it stands mag sorc is the worst pvp class by a mile.

Also it’s just your opinion that sorc will be overbuffed without nerfing streak

I can also then state my opinion that we can start with blanket nerfs to nb by reducing all their damage by 30%. Because nb spammables like surprise attack hit harder than sorc ultimates.

I don't see how my argument would hold value only if everything else would be ideally balanced. You are creating some wierd ruleset to justify Your own agenda. Care to explain Your reasoning?

I wouldnt say magsorc is "the worst by a mile". It's mediocre for sure but still have its use and places where it can shine although some of the playstyles required for that may not please more classic magsorc enjoyers because many people will just say "I dont like to use this and that" or "i dont like to play that way".

This game history has proven that even minor tweaks made incorrectly to magsorc may bring complete mayhen just like it happened last time ZoS tried to buff sorc kit with "slight" change to a rune cage.

And no as I've said many times it's not just my opinion. It's a fact proven many times throughout games history. Accept it or not, but it's a fact. Streak is too far ahead of everything else making sorc always problematic to balance properly.

Well nerfs to nb You so desperatly seem to need actually happened around 3-4 years ago. Nb in PvP lost like 15-20% of its dmg at that time and was in a pretty bad shape to the point many people stopped to play it. Current buffs are result of reverting these changes and a try to finally make magblade decent at PvP because magblade outside of some gank memes was bottom tier for way longer than magsorc is at its current state. As for Your argumentation about supprise attack vs sorc ultimates someone could counter it with equally silly reasoning that sorc needs a dmg nerf because crystal frag when spammed hits harder than supprise attack. Comparing abilities in a vaccum is kinda pointless.

AdamLAD

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

I have no issue with discussing sorc changes. The thing is most of the people who discusses them want to bring sorcs kit on pair with others while also keeping streak untouched or barely changed which is a collosal mistake which has been proven numerous times already.

So overbuffing sorc is the only colossal mistake which can be made so far.

What about the rest which are already in the game ?

When it comes to collosal mistakes than yes. Overbuffing sorc while keeping streak relatively untouched is the biggest mistake possible PvP wise. Doesn't mean there were no other mistakes being made but we had this argument few times already. Fact that mistakes were made in the past on other classes does not justify overbuffing sorc. As for currently overbuffed features some deserve tuning down.

I'm pretty sure the 55khp Wardens with 7k weapon damage, with unlimited sustain that could turn around, shalks, dawnbreaker and spin to win an entire group would disagree. Without question thee single most busted era of a class to grace eso. These things were flat broken. I'm sure they were running, malacath, vatren 2H, crimson. Talking about how "Streak" is the biggest mistake. Oh pal, I'm sure this one movement skill Completely outweighs everything about how broken warden was at that point. Someone is massively bias, and I genuinely cannot wait for the class to be buffed. Hopefully significantly. Infact buff streak aswell so I can watch you get more frustrated with ur own bias

axi

AdamLAD wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

I have no issue with discussing sorc changes. The thing is most of the people who discusses them want to bring sorcs kit on pair with others while also keeping streak untouched or barely changed which is a collosal mistake which has been proven numerous times already.

So overbuffing sorc is the only colossal mistake which can be made so far.

What about the rest which are already in the game ?

When it comes to collosal mistakes than yes. Overbuffing sorc while keeping streak relatively untouched is the biggest mistake possible PvP wise. Doesn't mean there were no other mistakes being made but we had this argument few times already. Fact that mistakes were made in the past on other classes does not justify overbuffing sorc. As for currently overbuffed features some deserve tuning down.

I'm pretty sure the 55khp Wardens with 7k weapon damage, with unlimited sustain that could turn around, shalks, dawnbreaker and spin to win an entire group would disagree. Without question thee single most busted era of a class to grace eso. These things were flat broken. I'm sure they were running, malacath, vatren 2H, crimson. Talking about how "Streak" is the biggest mistake. Oh pal, I'm sure this one movement skill Completely outweighs everything about how broken warden was at that point. Someone is massively bias, and I genuinely cannot wait for the class to be buffed. Hopefully significantly. Infact buff streak aswell so I can watch you get more frustrated with ur own bias

You do realise that You are comparing whole setup at its prime (including all abilities and sets that allowed for it to exist) against one ability? And You are calling me biased? By Your logic there was never a balance issue with any ability in the game because at some point there was some class that was OP in PvP right? What a great logic.

Also please read with more understanding. I didn't said that "streak is the biggest mistake". I've said that overbuffing sorc while keeping streak relatively untouched is the biggest mistake. Quite the difference.

As for sorc getting buffs I am also waiting for it to happen. I just want for buffs to be more on a balanced side.

Aces-High-82

Plz nerf every gap closer to 15m range and add a cost fatigue.....

PhoenixGrey

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

I have no issue with discussing sorc changes. The thing is most of the people who discusses them want to bring sorcs kit on pair with others while also keeping streak untouched or barely changed which is a collosal mistake which has been proven numerous times already.

So overbuffing sorc is the only colossal mistake which can be made so far.

What about the rest which are already in the game ?

When it comes to collosal mistakes than yes. Overbuffing sorc while keeping streak relatively untouched is the biggest mistake possible PvP wise. Doesn't mean there were no other mistakes being made but we had this argument few times already. Fact that mistakes were made in the past on other classes does not justify overbuffing sorc. As for currently overbuffed features some deserve tuning down.

Let’s catch the lowest possible hanging fruit because it’s the easiest.

Your entire argument only holds value if everything else is ideally balanced and we are talking about overbuffing sorc. Right now as it stands mag sorc is the worst pvp class by a mile.

Also it’s just your opinion that sorc will be overbuffed without nerfing streak

I can also then state my opinion that we can start with blanket nerfs to nb by reducing all their damage by 30%. Because nb spammables like surprise attack hit harder than sorc ultimates.

I don't see how my argument would hold value only if everything else would be ideally balanced. You are creating some wierd ruleset to justify Your own agenda. Care to explain Your reasoning?

I wouldnt say magsorc is "the worst by a mile". It's mediocre for sure but still have its use and places where it can shine although some of the playstyles required for that may not please more classic magsorc enjoyers because many people will just say "I dont like to use this and that" or "i dont like to play that way".

This game history has proven that even minor tweaks made incorrectly to magsorc may bring complete mayhen just like it happened last time ZoS tried to buff sorc kit with "slight" change to a rune cage.

And no as I've said many times it's not just my opinion. It's a fact proven many times throughout games history. Accept it or not, but it's a fact. Streak is too far ahead of everything else making sorc always problematic to balance properly.

Well nerfs to nb You so desperatly seem to need actually happened around 3-4 years ago. Nb in PvP lost like 15-20% of its dmg at that time and was in a pretty bad shape to the point many people stopped to play it. Current buffs are result of reverting these changes and a try to finally make magblade decent at PvP because magblade outside of some gank memes was bottom tier for way longer than magsorc is at its current state. As for Your argumentation about supprise attack vs sorc ultimates someone could counter it with equally silly reasoning that sorc needs a dmg nerf because crystal frag when spammed hits harder than supprise attack. Comparing abilities in a vaccum is kinda pointless.

Reality is that mag sorc is still the worst pvp spec. Nb is the most busted pvp spec.

There is no fantasy world where mag sorc is busted and nb is weak. You are still complaining like that fantasy has become a reality

Want to bet or create a poll on whether there will be nb buffs or mag sorc buffs next patch ?
My vote will always be for the former and I am never wrong.

We can complain about sorc buffs when they actually happen

PhoenixGrey

axi wrote: »

As for sorc getting buffs I am also waiting for it to happen. I just want for buffs to be more on a balanced side.

There is no such thing as sorc buffs.

Class is balanced beyond perfection

You can wait for NB buffs though which is bound to happen.

I count till 5 to delete someone on my nb.

Maybe make spectral bow a spammable coz 5 seconds is too long

axi

RemoryAzure wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Damage nerf to range abilities is perfectly justified. You dont expect to stand 40 meters away from enemy and hit him as hard as he would hit you standing 5 meters from You, don't you? And lets be honest in peoperly made setup that 10% is barely noticable.

uhh, no, i think
melees have way better weapon passives and being combined with melee abilities base damage AND their effects (like overall still insane dmg of jabs/whip dmg stacking/surprise attack guaranteed sundered) they do about 20-30% damage more than ranged builds. yes there is an advantage in range, but most of the small fights happen in melee range, due to gap closers being available to everyone at any time. and another problem are mentioned ranged defense skills, which leave exactly zero chance to a ranged build to kill a melee one in 1v1 taken tank meta and high healing into consideration.

but atleast when not talking about ranged shields, this is extremely easy to fix - equalize the damage of (instant) melee and ranged spammables and just apply a hidden mechanic which will scale damage with range to deal up to 10-20% less dmg at ~40m mark.

and, just thought about it, instead increase the damage of casted ranged spammables (cfrags, bow, etc) at high distance to give them a niche to shine in, coz at close quarters and in small scale pvp, with LoS and disadvantage of being interrupted in mind, casted skills are quite... trash, at very least.

Yeah meeles have better dmg. Because to deal them they need to contonuoulsy stay at 5-7 meters range. They cannot start attacking from 40 meters or run away and return to attacking immidiately after. There is no reason why meele and range dmg should be comparable. Like what would be the benefit of being meele at that point? Nobody forces You to fight in close range in small fights same like nobody forces You to play range class if You think meele is better. Gap closers may be available but bar space isnt that easily available to have them always slotted. Like when was the last time You've seen gap closers being widely used on something else other than templar? Some classes don't even have acces to reliable gap closers in their class kit so they would be forced to use weapon ones which lets be honest are not that great. They also wont work during sieges or against enemies hiding in their base in BGs and same goes for meele abilities. There is like one really strong skill that offers defense against range setups which is wardens crystalised shield.

What You propose isn't a fix but a way to completly break the balance and make range abilities superior. With Your "fix" meele and range DD would reach 100% of their dmg potential in 5-7 meters range fight but after that meele setup effectivness drops to zero while range setups still remains at 100% and only after reaching that 40 meters range setup would loose 10-20% when meele was sitting at zero all that time. Where is the logic in that? What would make anyone pick meele ability over range ability at that point?

The niche for frag and snipe as spammables is to be used from behind the zerg or from keep walls. As spammable abilities with the highest tooltip they don't need more niche areas to fill. What is with that mentality of everyone wanting for everything to be effective at any given scenario. yes certain things are sometimes good and sometimes not so good. That is how pvp works.

axi

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

I have no issue with discussing sorc changes. The thing is most of the people who discusses them want to bring sorcs kit on pair with others while also keeping streak untouched or barely changed which is a collosal mistake which has been proven numerous times already.

So overbuffing sorc is the only colossal mistake which can be made so far.

What about the rest which are already in the game ?

When it comes to collosal mistakes than yes. Overbuffing sorc while keeping streak relatively untouched is the biggest mistake possible PvP wise. Doesn't mean there were no other mistakes being made but we had this argument few times already. Fact that mistakes were made in the past on other classes does not justify overbuffing sorc. As for currently overbuffed features some deserve tuning down.

Let’s catch the lowest possible hanging fruit because it’s the easiest.

Your entire argument only holds value if everything else is ideally balanced and we are talking about overbuffing sorc. Right now as it stands mag sorc is the worst pvp class by a mile.

Also it’s just your opinion that sorc will be overbuffed without nerfing streak

I can also then state my opinion that we can start with blanket nerfs to nb by reducing all their damage by 30%. Because nb spammables like surprise attack hit harder than sorc ultimates.

I don't see how my argument would hold value only if everything else would be ideally balanced. You are creating some wierd ruleset to justify Your own agenda. Care to explain Your reasoning?

I wouldnt say magsorc is "the worst by a mile". It's mediocre for sure but still have its use and places where it can shine although some of the playstyles required for that may not please more classic magsorc enjoyers because many people will just say "I dont like to use this and that" or "i dont like to play that way".

This game history has proven that even minor tweaks made incorrectly to magsorc may bring complete mayhen just like it happened last time ZoS tried to buff sorc kit with "slight" change to a rune cage.

And no as I've said many times it's not just my opinion. It's a fact proven many times throughout games history. Accept it or not, but it's a fact. Streak is too far ahead of everything else making sorc always problematic to balance properly.

Well nerfs to nb You so desperatly seem to need actually happened around 3-4 years ago. Nb in PvP lost like 15-20% of its dmg at that time and was in a pretty bad shape to the point many people stopped to play it. Current buffs are result of reverting these changes and a try to finally make magblade decent at PvP because magblade outside of some gank memes was bottom tier for way longer than magsorc is at its current state. As for Your argumentation about supprise attack vs sorc ultimates someone could counter it with equally silly reasoning that sorc needs a dmg nerf because crystal frag when spammed hits harder than supprise attack. Comparing abilities in a vaccum is kinda pointless.

Reality is that mag sorc is still the worst pvp spec. Nb is the most busted pvp spec.

There is no fantasy world where mag sorc is busted and nb is weak. You are still complaining like that fantasy has become a reality

Want to bet or create a poll on whether there will be nb buffs or mag sorc buffs next patch ?
My vote will always be for the former and I am never wrong.

We can complain about sorc buffs when they actually happen

Reality is also that magblade was worst PvP spec for longer than magsorc and magsorc atleast share that spot with some other setups when magblade was just behind everyone at some point.

It's not fantasy. There was time in the game when magsorc was busted and stamblade was between mediocre and ok at best and magblade was useless at the same time. Tables have turned.

I was never complaining about sorc buffs. I just pointed out that streak is the thing that holds sorc back from getting much needed improvements.

Turtle_Bot

No I am not giving shields too many credit. I still remember being able to run 19k HP on my magsorc and being able to survive way more than people with 30k+ HP. That was happening because shields unlike heals can be also an HP extension. Back in the days You could run that under 20k HP setup and cover Your health with over 25k shields. This is why ZoS started to nerf certain aspects of shields one after another. And Your argument about templar shield is horribly wrong. They were never using their shield because it scales purely from max HP and it have smaller scaling from max HP than sorc's shield from max magicka so in order to reach shield value similar to sorc with 35k magicka templars would need 45k HP and at that point having shield was kinda pointless unless You were one of mentioned by You niche setups that were stacking max HP (and magicka regen) as high as they could to spam blazing shield and get decent enough dmg out of it because dmg of that ability was scaling from shield value. It had nothing to do with heals being stronger than shields. And funnily enough back in the day when harness magicka was a powerfull shield everyone was running with it even classes that had acces to heals so Your argument is kinda invalid.

You're still talking about half a decade ago when 20k max health was the norm, 23k+ was considered tanky and damage was much lower as was sustain, healing and mitigation.
If we are to keep bringing up the past, I could go back further than you to 2014 where sorcs were in just as bad a spot as they currently are for pvp, but were still very strong in pve and could use that as an excuse to make the buffs I suggested even more broken and overpowered because the class has always been a class that is either strong or severely underpowered.

Edit: Also this time you're carrying on about was also where investing into max stats had actual value so building for big shields did not hinder anything else on the build as max mag was just as strong as raw damage was for damage and healing values.
End Edit.

Now the classic sorc's escape goat argument which is "but nb have shade and cloak". It's kinda silly argumentation. Yes nb have shade and cloak but when You are trying to disprove strenght of 1 ability by bringing up strenght of 2 other abilities combined You really contradict Yourself. And You only compare shade+cloak to streak teleporting part like the strongest stun in the game wouldn't be there also. When it comes to shade this skill while being powerfull tool, alone is nowhere near streak unless we are talking about fights in some very closed areas where walls can be used as an adventage like resource towers in Cyrodill. What makes that skill diferent from streak is that You need preparation time in order for it to work. You can't just click it once and get the result. You need to place the shade, bait enemy away from it and than when situation calls for escape You can use it but You can do it only withinh 20 seconds of shade's duration and only within ability's range. And if You want to use it again You need to repeat the procces. Streak does not have any of this limitations You just use it whenever You need it, only drawback is that You cannot spam it endlesly. Also yes while shade is working vertically and horizontally, streak allows You to reach places that nobody else can reach or reach certain areas way faster than other classes will require to follow. When it comes to ignoring LoS well streak stun also does that to some extent. Shade may have bigger range but 2-3 streaks are still better way of escaping. Shade adventage is not is open field but in closed, tight areas. When it comes to cloak well yes it's a crutch in current game design but luckily 90% of nb players suck at the class because as strong as cloak is it still requires some skill to use it, more skill than streak for sure. As for abilities that counter cloak radiant magelight is really decent for that although I was never a fan of the idea to slot specific abilities just to counter 1 ability of other class. It's kinda forced game desing.

I was comparing streak to shade and invis individually, not together, each of those abilities are just as strong as streak, if not stronger and NB got to keep BOTH at full power when getting all of their buffs.
You look at having to pre-cast shade as a weakness, while at the same time saying that using shields as a pre-cast heal is a strength, so which is it, because you cannot have it both ways.

The biggest hard counter to range abilities which were dk wings is shadow of its former self and basically can be called a dead ability. The only real hard counter to range abilities right now is warden's crystalised shield and even that isn't some S+ tier counter like wings used to be. S&b ulti is not a "hard counter". By that logic we can call negate a hard counter to magicka abilities and ultimates. Damage nerf to range abilities is perfectly justified. You dont expect to stand 40 meters away from enemy and hit him as hard as he would hit you standing 5 meters from You, don't you? And lets be honest in peoperly made setup that 10% is barely noticable. it's an argument just for the sake of having an argument.

Where did I say I wanted ranged abilities to deal the same damage as melee, I was pointing out that range already has its 10% (and more) nerf to their damage values when compared to equivalent melee abilities.
You have also completely omitted the fact that dodge roll and invis are a 100% mitigation of ranged abilities damage. This makes them also a hard counter to ranged damage, 1 of which (dodge roll) is part of every single class kit and the other (invis) is available through potions to everyone and is on a spammable ability on NB.
You also talk about 40m as if that is the default range of everything. It is not, it is only the range of 28m+ ranged abilities when used near a keep in cyrodiil. Otherwise the default range of everything is much lower at 28m with only snipe being the exception (35m snipe/lethal and 40m for focused aim).

Neither dodge roll or block is the cheapest it even been. There was a time when dodge had no cost penalty and classes like nb could literally spam it 10-15 times in a row. Block also had it's better days when for example stamina regen was not halted while blocking or when You could stack block cost reduction sources way more efficiently because heavy armor had block cost reduction passives. There were a times when You could literally permablock forever.

As opposed to now where NB can still do that and gets cheaper dodge rolls than everyone else thanks to the buff to blur, not to mention every other class that can do that too, even more so if they run a basic pvp sustain set like wretched on the back bar (My stamden is a perfect example of this, despite only having roughly 1600 stam recovery + netch and no wretched vitality) I am able to essentially infinitely dodge roll with it even with the ramping cost because it is so damn cheap to begin with thanks to all the reduced cost CP, imperial race, etc that the ramping cost isn't noticed until the 20th roll. I could (and have) also easily do something similar on any of my other classes if I were to run sustain focused builds, but I prefer to go for more damage and healing.

That class unique factor is still strong. Just ask hybrid sorcs or stamsorcs. It is in fact the strongest ability in the game. This is why sorcs always need to be looked at way more carefully than other classes wheter it was 5 years ago or right now. Other classes need to use multiple skills and core combat moves just to get half of what streak is giving to sorc. If rest of the sorc's kit goes close to other classes kits it's a recipe for disaster. As long as magsorc have streak (and shields) the rule stays the same wheter 5 years ago, today or in 5 years from now. I guess devs recognised that issue and are very hesitant to repeat mistakes of previous years.

Or the devs just listen to the forums where everyone bashes on sorcs because everyone is still afraid of a now mediocre class that used to be strong 5 years ago and hasn't been anywhere near as strong ever since power creep overtook the class.

Can't say for everyone but me personally yes, when I see that certain class (no matter what class that is) is getting too strong change I usually call it out. Do I call on "every single buff"? No, I also have other things to do outside of the forum. By that logic I can ask You, do You call for a buff on every single underperforming ability on every single class? Because if not that is also discrimination by Your standards.

Actually I do, I have repeatedly called and supported for necro skulls and pets to be buffed. I have called and supported for templars to have their recent nerfs reverted and the power they had consolidated into beam to be re-spread back to the rest of the class kit. I was also calling for wardens to get buffs pre U36 and even when getting their buffs, I was calling for the buffs to not be tied down to frost staves. I was also among those that wanted magblade to be made stronger back when it was a bad class, same with DK back before they got their overtuned buffs.
So yes, I do call for buffs to all of the other classes when they need it. So try not to infer otherwise because that is just flat out wrong.

Yes every single class have unique strong ability. But streak is the strongest of them all leaving the rest far behind. With all its drawbacks and downsides it's still the strongest ability there is. I have no issue with discussing sorc changes. The thing is most of the people who discusses them want to bring sorcs kit on pair with others while also keeping streak untouched or barely changed which is a collosal mistake which has been proven numerous times already.

I refer you to the following points I made in my original post:

Secondly, no, I don't want streak buffed either and would be more than willing to see some adjustments to streak (which I did propose as well) assuming the rest of the kit is made viable first (or at least at the same time) so that the class is not completely unplayable.

and this

Bolt Escape: Fitting and slightly ironic that this is the final active skill in the class kit to go over. However, even this skill has a couple of pain points. first is being a gap closer, it falls to every single location desync and gap closer bug in existence, which gets exacerbated by lag/poor performance. Second is vertical terrain, this skill is hilariously bad when trying to move around terrain that is not a flat open field, often landing short (if even moving at all) if trying to go up hill, then essentially stunning yourself as you fall down when streaking across a down-hill surface.
However, with the above changes made, sorc now have options, so a few adjustments can be made here to tone down the power level of this skill.
Streak: no longer stuns but inflicts a snare on enemies hit and has its range increased from 15m to 20m. The fatigue cost is also decreased from 33% to 25% due to no longer having a stun.
Ball of Lightning: Keeps its 15m range and the 33% fatigue cost. No longer provides snare immunity (since this is now on boundless storm), instead it causes you to dodge all incoming projectiles for 1.5 seconds on cast.

As you can clearly see, I am more than willing to have streak and even BoL nerfed and/or reworked if the class gets buffed in other areas. I nerfed streak by removing the stun and replacing it with a snare (% of snare is left undetermined because I'm not sure where the correct value would be for it) and BoL had it's snare removal/immunity moved to lightning form, kept its current high ramping cost and the current smaller cast range because instead of dodging 1 projectile per second for 3 seconds it now dodges all projectiles for 1.5 seconds only (this can be adjusted as needed, it also does not dodge beam or melee attacks, only projectiles).

So I have no clue where you got the idea that I only wanted the class buffed and streak left alone. I clearly stated multiple times in the original post that if the class got buffed in other areas, that streak would be nerfed to compensate.
The only reason I made the comparison that NB got all of its buffs with zero nerfs to invis or shade was because everyone skipped over the fact that I had streak nerfed with my changes and continued to cry and carry on about "streak OP" without reading my entire post while they never did that when calls were made for buffing NB when it needed the buffs.

RemoryAzure

axi wrote: »

Like what would be the benefit of being meele at that point?
Nobody forces You to fight in close range
Like when was the last time You've seen gap closers being widely used on something else other than templar?
What would make anyone pick meele ability over range ability at that point?

- and what is the benefit in playing ranged build in current meta, where ~85% of players are melees and the rest 15% are just pve players who dont change their ranged pve build coz they dont care about pvp, and noone plays ranged in pvp serously?
- melees force me to fight in close range, obviously
- well, like, every day? 2h stampede/critical rush are used widely, and the latter also does more damage than a ranged spammable coz of 100% crit and bonus damage vs a ranged build who tries to kite
- the ideal balance between two types of builds and personal preference, i guess? anyway, its better than current situation with all the pvp players playing purely melee builds

p.s. and btw i said up to 20% dmg reduction at 40m mark, which means gradual scaling, and at the gap closer range it will be the same dmg as it is now. so, i suggest to make ranged builds do even less dmg than now at higher ranges and u call it unbalanced in favor of ranged builds, whats the logic in that?

PhoenixGrey

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

I have no issue with discussing sorc changes. The thing is most of the people who discusses them want to bring sorcs kit on pair with others while also keeping streak untouched or barely changed which is a collosal mistake which has been proven numerous times already.

So overbuffing sorc is the only colossal mistake which can be made so far.

What about the rest which are already in the game ?

When it comes to collosal mistakes than yes. Overbuffing sorc while keeping streak relatively untouched is the biggest mistake possible PvP wise. Doesn't mean there were no other mistakes being made but we had this argument few times already. Fact that mistakes were made in the past on other classes does not justify overbuffing sorc. As for currently overbuffed features some deserve tuning down.

Let’s catch the lowest possible hanging fruit because it’s the easiest.

Your entire argument only holds value if everything else is ideally balanced and we are talking about overbuffing sorc. Right now as it stands mag sorc is the worst pvp class by a mile.

Also it’s just your opinion that sorc will be overbuffed without nerfing streak

I can also then state my opinion that we can start with blanket nerfs to nb by reducing all their damage by 30%. Because nb spammables like surprise attack hit harder than sorc ultimates.

I don't see how my argument would hold value only if everything else would be ideally balanced. You are creating some wierd ruleset to justify Your own agenda. Care to explain Your reasoning?

I wouldnt say magsorc is "the worst by a mile". It's mediocre for sure but still have its use and places where it can shine although some of the playstyles required for that may not please more classic magsorc enjoyers because many people will just say "I dont like to use this and that" or "i dont like to play that way".

This game history has proven that even minor tweaks made incorrectly to magsorc may bring complete mayhen just like it happened last time ZoS tried to buff sorc kit with "slight" change to a rune cage.

And no as I've said many times it's not just my opinion. It's a fact proven many times throughout games history. Accept it or not, but it's a fact. Streak is too far ahead of everything else making sorc always problematic to balance properly.

Well nerfs to nb You so desperatly seem to need actually happened around 3-4 years ago. Nb in PvP lost like 15-20% of its dmg at that time and was in a pretty bad shape to the point many people stopped to play it. Current buffs are result of reverting these changes and a try to finally make magblade decent at PvP because magblade outside of some gank memes was bottom tier for way longer than magsorc is at its current state. As for Your argumentation about supprise attack vs sorc ultimates someone could counter it with equally silly reasoning that sorc needs a dmg nerf because crystal frag when spammed hits harder than supprise attack. Comparing abilities in a vaccum is kinda pointless.

Reality is that mag sorc is still the worst pvp spec. Nb is the most busted pvp spec.

There is no fantasy world where mag sorc is busted and nb is weak. You are still complaining like that fantasy has become a reality

Want to bet or create a poll on whether there will be nb buffs or mag sorc buffs next patch ?
My vote will always be for the former and I am never wrong.

We can complain about sorc buffs when they actually happen

Reality is also that magblade was worst PvP spec for longer than magsorc and magsorc atleast share that spot with some other setups when magblade was just behind everyone at some point.

It's not fantasy. There was time in the game when magsorc was busted and stamblade was between mediocre and ok at best and magblade was useless at the same time. Tables have turned.

I was never complaining about sorc buffs. I just pointed out that streak is the thing that holds sorc back from getting much needed improvements.

It’s been a few years for mag sorc at the bottom tier. The last time mag sorc was decent was during pet sorc meta.

Reality is the present not the past. Talking about mag blade is the past.

I don’t see a problem buffing streak and the rest of the sorc toolkit.

NB receives buffs every patch. What’s wrong if sorc receives it once in a while.

Buffing other skills while nerfing streak is not really a buff.

Pelanora

"That class unique factor is still strong. Just ask hybrid sorcs or stamsorcs. It is in fact the strongest ability in the game."

Seriously, this is just crazy.

How did whole thread get hijacked to be about streak.

PhoenixGrey

Pelanora wrote: »

"That class unique factor is still strong. Just ask hybrid sorcs or stamsorcs. It is in fact the strongest ability in the game."

Seriously, this is just crazy.

How did whole thread get hijacked to be about streak.

Streak does negligible damage. I am not sure this unique factor has any purpose apart from running away. It also has a stacking cost

Nb gets multiple buffs to damage using cloak. In fact the vampire skill line has stealth passives just for NB.

axi

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

I have no issue with discussing sorc changes. The thing is most of the people who discusses them want to bring sorcs kit on pair with others while also keeping streak untouched or barely changed which is a collosal mistake which has been proven numerous times already.

So overbuffing sorc is the only colossal mistake which can be made so far.

What about the rest which are already in the game ?

When it comes to collosal mistakes than yes. Overbuffing sorc while keeping streak relatively untouched is the biggest mistake possible PvP wise. Doesn't mean there were no other mistakes being made but we had this argument few times already. Fact that mistakes were made in the past on other classes does not justify overbuffing sorc. As for currently overbuffed features some deserve tuning down.

Let’s catch the lowest possible hanging fruit because it’s the easiest.

Your entire argument only holds value if everything else is ideally balanced and we are talking about overbuffing sorc. Right now as it stands mag sorc is the worst pvp class by a mile.

Also it’s just your opinion that sorc will be overbuffed without nerfing streak

I can also then state my opinion that we can start with blanket nerfs to nb by reducing all their damage by 30%. Because nb spammables like surprise attack hit harder than sorc ultimates.

I don't see how my argument would hold value only if everything else would be ideally balanced. You are creating some wierd ruleset to justify Your own agenda. Care to explain Your reasoning?

I wouldnt say magsorc is "the worst by a mile". It's mediocre for sure but still have its use and places where it can shine although some of the playstyles required for that may not please more classic magsorc enjoyers because many people will just say "I dont like to use this and that" or "i dont like to play that way".

This game history has proven that even minor tweaks made incorrectly to magsorc may bring complete mayhen just like it happened last time ZoS tried to buff sorc kit with "slight" change to a rune cage.

And no as I've said many times it's not just my opinion. It's a fact proven many times throughout games history. Accept it or not, but it's a fact. Streak is too far ahead of everything else making sorc always problematic to balance properly.

Well nerfs to nb You so desperatly seem to need actually happened around 3-4 years ago. Nb in PvP lost like 15-20% of its dmg at that time and was in a pretty bad shape to the point many people stopped to play it. Current buffs are result of reverting these changes and a try to finally make magblade decent at PvP because magblade outside of some gank memes was bottom tier for way longer than magsorc is at its current state. As for Your argumentation about supprise attack vs sorc ultimates someone could counter it with equally silly reasoning that sorc needs a dmg nerf because crystal frag when spammed hits harder than supprise attack. Comparing abilities in a vaccum is kinda pointless.

Reality is that mag sorc is still the worst pvp spec. Nb is the most busted pvp spec.

There is no fantasy world where mag sorc is busted and nb is weak. You are still complaining like that fantasy has become a reality

Want to bet or create a poll on whether there will be nb buffs or mag sorc buffs next patch ?
My vote will always be for the former and I am never wrong.

We can complain about sorc buffs when they actually happen

Reality is also that magblade was worst PvP spec for longer than magsorc and magsorc atleast share that spot with some other setups when magblade was just behind everyone at some point.

It's not fantasy. There was time in the game when magsorc was busted and stamblade was between mediocre and ok at best and magblade was useless at the same time. Tables have turned.

I was never complaining about sorc buffs. I just pointed out that streak is the thing that holds sorc back from getting much needed improvements.

It’s been a few years for mag sorc at the bottom tier. The last time mag sorc was decent was during pet sorc meta.

Reality is the present not the past. Talking about mag blade is the past.

I don’t see a problem buffing streak and the rest of the sorc toolkit.

NB receives buffs every patch. What’s wrong if sorc receives it once in a while.

Buffing other skills while nerfing streak is not really a buff.

No it hasn't been few years for magsorc to be a bottom tier. Excluding few first motnhs of the game and last few months magsorc was never bottom tier in PvP. And even during last few months there are certain areas in pvP where other classes can perform worse than magsorc

Here are for example tier lists made by a group of experienced PvP players who discussed PvP balance and then together were coming up with tier lists for a certain patch : 2020 greymoor https://imgbb.com/tmWYVH3 , 2021 flames of ambition https://imgbb.com/vQ8Lpnd , 2022 ascending tides https://imgbb.com/LZX4nd4 . As You can see during last 3 years sorc was never ranked as bottom class at any of PvP types. Quite frankly he was always in the upper half, scoring usually between S and B tier. Yes we can see drop in effectiveness with each patch and getting lower notes but magsorcs were far from "being a bottom tier for few years". Funnily enough nightblade which You praise so much as being always the best and always buffed was still ranked in bottom tier at certain PvP aspects like smallscale Cyrodill PvP.

You may not see a problem for buffing streak and rest of the kit because You've proven beyond any doubt a complete bias towards magsorc and that You don't want a balanced game You just want Your class to be broken once again.

I told this like 5 times already but it seems like I need to say it again. The reason why nightblade was getting buffs for last few patches is because at some point ZoS overnerfed that class which they later fixed with multiple buffs plus magblade was in dire need on buffs because as I already said that class was the weakest PvP setup for way longer than magsorc. Isn't that funny that sorc despite not reciving buffs or even reciving nerfs for so long still managed to be in upper half of tier list for while magblade needed few patches of strong buffs just to be ok right now? What's wrong with sorc reciving it once in a while? Well every time sorc recived noticable buffs it was becoming the new worst PvP meta.

Nerfing streak is the only way to give strong buffs to other parts of magsorc kit without completly breaking game balance. With no nerfs to streak sorc may get minor tweaks at best and to be honest minor tweaks is all that class needs atm.

axi

Pelanora wrote: »

"That class unique factor is still strong. Just ask hybrid sorcs or stamsorcs. It is in fact the strongest ability in the game."

Seriously, this is just crazy.

How did whole thread get hijacked to be about streak.

Since it's mostly PvP oriented thread there cannot be a discussion about sorc without mentioning streak. It's an elephant in the room when it comes to PvP.

OBJnoob

axi wrote: »

Nerfing streak is the only way to give strong buffs to other parts of magsorc kit without completly breaking game balance. With no nerfs to streak sorc may get minor tweaks at best and to be honest minor tweaks is all that class needs atm.

Holy cow the amount of stuff I had to delete just to quote that one paragraph.

Anyway... I hardcore disagree with nerfing streak. But I do agree that magsorcs only need small buffs.

Give them major breach... And make their pets untargetable/unkillable.

I agree with some of the suggestions about reworking passives but simply think some more concrete fighting buffs are in order. The breach thing... I mean, ele sus is so strong right now you aren't really giving them anything they don't have anyway. But you're saving them a bar slot, which is cool, because they have to double bar pets.

The change to pets isn't even really about buffing sorcs I'm just sick and tired of hitting warden bears, engine guardians, and matriarchs with attacks. Have been tired of it since zoo sorcs were a thing like 3 years ago. But the change, which would just help everybody and make sense, would also give them the reliable burst heal they need.

Personally I'm not that interested in finding a way to make shields viable again. Which is just my personal opinion and I'm not sure I have a great reason for feeling that way. But I will say I think sorcs are one of (2nd only to NB probably,) the most iconic classes with or without shields. I mean you literally look like lightning and zip across the map. Nobody has ever confused a sorc for anything else. Ever.

axi

RemoryAzure wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Like what would be the benefit of being meele at that point?
Nobody forces You to fight in close range
Like when was the last time You've seen gap closers being widely used on something else other than templar?
What would make anyone pick meele ability over range ability at that point?

- and what is the benefit in playing ranged build in current meta, where ~85% of players are melees and the rest 15% are just pve players who dont change their ranged pve build coz they dont care about pvp, and noone plays ranged in pvp serously?
- melees force me to fight in close range, obviously
- well, like, every day? 2h stampede/critical rush are used widely, and the latter also does more damage than a ranged spammable coz of 100% crit and bonus damage vs a ranged build who tries to kite
- the ideal balance between two types of builds and personal preference, i guess? anyway, its better than current situation with all the pvp players playing purely melee builds

p.s. and btw i said up to 20% dmg reduction at 40m mark, which means gradual scaling, and at the gap closer range it will be the same dmg as it is now. so, i suggest to make ranged builds do even less dmg than now at higher ranges and u call it unbalanced in favor of ranged builds, whats the logic in that?

What is the benefit of playing a ranged setup? Playing as a ranged setup. That's basically it and it always was like that. As for range setups there are still viable options that people are using in certain PvP aspects. In Cyrodill in groups and even in BGs You will find archers that can really mess You up just with snipe spam when they are covered by their team. magplars can still make really solid range setups, magdes a semi range but still they have reach higher than 7 meters and sorc despite being the way it is right now it's still a range setup that can be problematic to deal with. Why most of the people choose to play in meele? because it's more effective, as it should be since Your offense is hindered to be always at 5-7 meters range which also requires You to build and keep more defense since You will be always under pressure.

Meeles force You to fight in close range? Like they visit Your home and scream "Play in meele!"? Nobody forces You to anything, if You engage in a fight with meele setup and You stay in meele that was Your choice. Choice that every range setup have and meele setups lack unless they are nb or sorc.

I really doubt stampede and crit rush are "widely" used atm. In BGs for example I barely see them being used same in no CP Cyro. And I almost never see them being used by experienced players. Many meele setups stopped to even use 2h right now preffering to run with dual wield and destro, resto, s&b or bow. Is stampede being used? Yes. Is it widely used? No.

Once again not all PvP players play purely meele build that is huge generalisation and simply not true.

That idea is still nonsensical since meele setups effectiveness would be close to zero after 7 meters mark. What would be the point of meele abilities if range ones are doing similar dmg at meele range and can be still used at longer distances? And now not only You want to give every range setup dmg adventage but also force every meele setup to slot gap closer just to have a chance to fight against that adventage. What a great balance.

PhoenixGrey

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

I have no issue with discussing sorc changes. The thing is most of the people who discusses them want to bring sorcs kit on pair with others while also keeping streak untouched or barely changed which is a collosal mistake which has been proven numerous times already.

So overbuffing sorc is the only colossal mistake which can be made so far.

What about the rest which are already in the game ?

When it comes to collosal mistakes than yes. Overbuffing sorc while keeping streak relatively untouched is the biggest mistake possible PvP wise. Doesn't mean there were no other mistakes being made but we had this argument few times already. Fact that mistakes were made in the past on other classes does not justify overbuffing sorc. As for currently overbuffed features some deserve tuning down.

Let’s catch the lowest possible hanging fruit because it’s the easiest.

Your entire argument only holds value if everything else is ideally balanced and we are talking about overbuffing sorc. Right now as it stands mag sorc is the worst pvp class by a mile.

Also it’s just your opinion that sorc will be overbuffed without nerfing streak

I can also then state my opinion that we can start with blanket nerfs to nb by reducing all their damage by 30%. Because nb spammables like surprise attack hit harder than sorc ultimates.

I don't see how my argument would hold value only if everything else would be ideally balanced. You are creating some wierd ruleset to justify Your own agenda. Care to explain Your reasoning?

I wouldnt say magsorc is "the worst by a mile". It's mediocre for sure but still have its use and places where it can shine although some of the playstyles required for that may not please more classic magsorc enjoyers because many people will just say "I dont like to use this and that" or "i dont like to play that way".

This game history has proven that even minor tweaks made incorrectly to magsorc may bring complete mayhen just like it happened last time ZoS tried to buff sorc kit with "slight" change to a rune cage.

And no as I've said many times it's not just my opinion. It's a fact proven many times throughout games history. Accept it or not, but it's a fact. Streak is too far ahead of everything else making sorc always problematic to balance properly.

Well nerfs to nb You so desperatly seem to need actually happened around 3-4 years ago. Nb in PvP lost like 15-20% of its dmg at that time and was in a pretty bad shape to the point many people stopped to play it. Current buffs are result of reverting these changes and a try to finally make magblade decent at PvP because magblade outside of some gank memes was bottom tier for way longer than magsorc is at its current state. As for Your argumentation about supprise attack vs sorc ultimates someone could counter it with equally silly reasoning that sorc needs a dmg nerf because crystal frag when spammed hits harder than supprise attack. Comparing abilities in a vaccum is kinda pointless.

Reality is that mag sorc is still the worst pvp spec. Nb is the most busted pvp spec.

There is no fantasy world where mag sorc is busted and nb is weak. You are still complaining like that fantasy has become a reality

Want to bet or create a poll on whether there will be nb buffs or mag sorc buffs next patch ?
My vote will always be for the former and I am never wrong.

We can complain about sorc buffs when they actually happen

Reality is also that magblade was worst PvP spec for longer than magsorc and magsorc atleast share that spot with some other setups when magblade was just behind everyone at some point.

It's not fantasy. There was time in the game when magsorc was busted and stamblade was between mediocre and ok at best and magblade was useless at the same time. Tables have turned.

I was never complaining about sorc buffs. I just pointed out that streak is the thing that holds sorc back from getting much needed improvements.

It’s been a few years for mag sorc at the bottom tier. The last time mag sorc was decent was during pet sorc meta.

Reality is the present not the past. Talking about mag blade is the past.

I don’t see a problem buffing streak and the rest of the sorc toolkit.

NB receives buffs every patch. What’s wrong if sorc receives it once in a while.

Buffing other skills while nerfing streak is not really a buff.

No it hasn't been few years for magsorc to be a bottom tier. Excluding few first motnhs of the game and last few months magsorc was never bottom tier in PvP. And even during last few months there are certain areas in pvP where other classes can perform worse than magsorc

Here are for example tier lists made by a group of experienced PvP players who discussed PvP balance and then together were coming up with tier lists for a certain patch : 2020 greymoor https://imgbb.com/tmWYVH3 , 2021 flames of ambition https://imgbb.com/vQ8Lpnd , 2022 ascending tides https://imgbb.com/LZX4nd4 . As You can see during last 3 years sorc was never ranked as bottom class at any of PvP types. Quite frankly he was always in the upper half, scoring usually between S and B tier. Yes we can see drop in effectiveness with each patch and getting lower notes but magsorcs were far from "being a bottom tier for few years". Funnily enough nightblade which You praise so much as being always the best and always buffed was still ranked in bottom tier at certain PvP aspects like smallscale Cyrodill PvP.

You may not see a problem for buffing streak and rest of the kit because You've proven beyond any doubt a complete bias towards magsorc and that You don't want a balanced game You just want Your class to be broken once again.

I told this like 5 times already but it seems like I need to say it again. The reason why nightblade was getting buffs for last few patches is because at some point ZoS overnerfed that class which they later fixed with multiple buffs plus magblade was in dire need on buffs because as I already said that class was the weakest PvP setup for way longer than magsorc. Isn't that funny that sorc despite not reciving buffs or even reciving nerfs for so long still managed to be in upper half of tier list for while magblade needed few patches of strong buffs just to be ok right now? What's wrong with sorc reciving it once in a while? Well every time sorc recived noticable buffs it was becoming the new worst PvP meta.

Nerfing streak is the only way to give strong buffs to other parts of magsorc kit without completly breaking game balance. With no nerfs to streak sorc may get minor tweaks at best and to be honest minor tweaks is all that class needs atm.

Imagine posting class tiers created by a nb main. Not sure why I should even see it.

For solo pvp nightblade particularly the stamina one has always been strong in the history of the game. That’s the only pvp category I care about. I want sorc to be on equal footing or better.

StaticWave

Idk how many times I have to reiterate... Just give them a usable and decent burst heal lol. Out of everything on the list, this is what they need the most. It should be priority over everything else. All they need is something equivalent to other classes' main burst heal that isnt' tied to a darn 2-bar pet.

That 1 buff will literally make sorc 50% stronger in terms of survivability.

StaticWave

Like yes, I get it sorc needs buffs, I want buffs too since I main the class! But when you give ZOS a list without specifying which is more important and needed, you're not going to do sorc mains a favor.

All those little changes are cool, but they aren't NEEDED. The single most needed thing on sorc right now is a true burst heal, and I will keep repeating this until the day this game ceases to exist. As a hybrid/stamsorc main that isn't using a 2 hand weapon for Rally or Blessing of Restoration, I can't tell you how important it is that we as a class, get this buff. It's not going to just benefit stamsorc. It's also going to benefit magsorc.

Imagine the day when we do get a true burst heal. Imagine the day you can use Hardened Ward to give yourself 12-13k of extra soft HP, and a true burst heal that can crit for 15-17k to save yourself from execute if you get low. Like, that would be fantastic. Stamsorcs will also benefit because they can actually use a burst heal that isn't Rally or Dark Deal.

Please, start with the most important stuff first lol. And please, stamsorcs exist. Everytime I hear sorc cries on the forums it's always about magsorc. We stamsorcs exist, and quite frankly, we need just as many buffs as magsorcs do.