Sorc Pain Points and ideas on buffs, changes and reworks to skills to bring the class up to par.

StaticWave

Pelanora wrote: »

.

StaticWave wrote: »

RemoryAzure wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Not directing at the OP since he did raise buff suggestions for stamsorc, albeit not as in depth and probably a byproduct of his main goal which is to buff magsorc. I was directing at the replies in the thread. Most of them are about magsorc and it's saddening to see how few stamsorcs are left.

well, according to RealGodzilla, one of the biggest eso content creators, magsorc is the worst class in the game, while stamsorc is in the lower part of A-tier, which is still better than classic (ranged) magblade sitting in B, and i can agree with that (ranged magblade has extreme mana consumption, low damage and high cost spammable, which makes him always, like really 95% of the time, sitting at 0 mana with 3k+ regen (and to achieve this regen u also sacrifice even more damage), unable to do anything freely unlike op (as every other melee build in the game) stam/hybrid nb). from this perspective, rangeblade deserves more buffs than stamsorc, while magsorc is really in a bad state

Lol being a big content creator doesn’t mean much. Some of the best ESO pvpers I know on PC Na don’t even have more than 300 subs on youtube. React for example is a very good player and is quite active on the forums but he would agree with me that pure melee stamsorc is no where near the A-tier.

Yea can confirm, I have heard React say that in his stream.

We’ve dueled each other plenty of times and I’ve fought him on my NB when he tried stamsorc and heard his feedback several months ago.

I still remember that day when I got sick of dying to random burst from a NB and seeing how tanky it is after the buffs and I logged on my NB and saw React on stamsorc. He was trying the class out again. I main stamsorc while he mains NB, and we were dueling each other in a class we didn’t main. The difference was astronomical. Both of us knew the combos of each class, but I had a much easier time face tanking him while dishing out just as much damage while he had to kite so much whenever he got low. Now imagine if we played on our main. He would have so much advantage it’s unreal. You know what React said after the duel? He said stamsorc is sh*t. I mean, I can’t blame him.

So how on earth can you put a stamsorc in the A tier list when 1 spec is over-performing (proc bowsorc) and all other specs are vastly inferior lol.

StaticWave

Magsorc and stamsorc are both bad compared to other classes but you know what the difference is? If we ignore hybrid and just talk about pure mag and stam, magsorc is still better than stamsorc lol. An average magsorc will most of the time win a fight against an average stamsorc. I've observed enough fights to reach this conclusion.

Melee stamsorc is currently the second least played spec on PC NA (just behind ranged magblade) and there's a good reason for that. Most people don't know how to survive on a brawler stamsorc even if using Streak. This is especially true if they came from a class that has a good burst heal. It takes literally thousands of duels and outnumbered Cyrodiil fights to learn how to survive on a brawler stamsorc. I've gone through that learning process, so whenever people see me play stamsorc and ask "man how do you make it work? I can't survive when I play it", I always respond with "just die a lot until you learn how to not die".

All I want is a burst heal, that's it. The single most needed buff for both stam and magsorc is a burst heal. Everything else is a bonus. We NEED that burst heal bad. I really hope people who make sorc buff threads understand this. We need to push for 1 change at a time, and that change is a burst heal.

PhoenixGrey

StaticWave wrote: »

Magsorc and stamsorc are both bad compared to other classes but you know what the difference is? If we ignore hybrid and just talk about pure mag and stam, magsorc is still better than stamsorc lol. An average magsorc will most of the time win a fight against an average stamsorc. I've observed enough fights to reach this conclusion.

Melee stamsorc is currently the second least played spec on PC NA (just behind ranged magblade) and there's a good reason for that. Most people don't know how to survive on a brawler stamsorc even if using Streak. This is especially true if they came from a class that has a good burst heal. It takes literally thousands of duels and outnumbered Cyrodiil fights to learn how to survive on a brawler stamsorc. I've gone through that learning process, so whenever people see me play stamsorc and ask "man how do you make it work? I can't survive when I play it", I always respond with "just die a lot until you learn how to not die".

All I want is a burst heal, that's it. The single most needed buff for both stam and magsorc is a burst heal. Everything else is a bonus. We NEED that burst heal bad. I really hope people who make sorc buff threads understand this. We need to push for 1 change at a time, and that change is a burst heal.

Nothing wrong in buffing all areas of the class at once to make it viable for a few years

Sorc was ok when crystal weapon was buffed and now it’s back to *** tier after the nerf. It took like 5 years to get a stamina morph of frag right ?
That’s what happens when you lean on one skill for the entire class

Even with the whole host of changes which op has suggested in the thread, I see the class still coming up short for solo pvp in comparison to nb with a 5 second insta gib timer.

That’s how far this class has fallen over the years. Anything less than A tier will always be an unplayable class in my book.

Plenty of ways to raise the ceiling as well so overbuffing the class shouldn’t be a problem.

Pelanora

StaticWave wrote: »

Magsorc and stamsorc are both bad compared to other classes but you know what the difference is? If we ignore hybrid and just talk about pure mag and stam, magsorc is still better than stamsorc lol. An average magsorc will most of the time win a fight against an average stamsorc. I've observed enough fights to reach this conclusion.

Melee stamsorc is currently the second least played spec on PC NA (just behind ranged magblade) and there's a good reason for that. Most people don't know how to survive on a brawler stamsorc even if using Streak. This is especially true if they came from a class that has a good burst heal. It takes literally thousands of duels and outnumbered Cyrodiil fights to learn how to survive on a brawler stamsorc. I've gone through that learning process, so whenever people see me play stamsorc and ask "man how do you make it work? I can't survive when I play it", I always respond with "just die a lot until you learn how to not die".

All I want is a burst heal, that's it. The single most needed buff for both stam and magsorc is a burst heal. Everything else is a bonus. We NEED that burst heal bad. I really hope people who make sorc buff threads understand this. We need to push for 1 change at a time, and that change is a burst heal.

Malcolm in his magsorc videos says ' no reason to play this class to begin with'

Aces-High-82

I mentioned it already but twilight crits up to 18k in nocp. What it makes unreliable is the terrible pet AI and it's ridiculous low hp plus the fact you have to doublebar it. Quickfix would be to give it 50k hp but that would certainly make it a too good meatshield in 1v1. Untargetable would be probably the optimal choice but I doubt ZOS will put that coding effort.

StaticWave

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Magsorc and stamsorc are both bad compared to other classes but you know what the difference is? If we ignore hybrid and just talk about pure mag and stam, magsorc is still better than stamsorc lol. An average magsorc will most of the time win a fight against an average stamsorc. I've observed enough fights to reach this conclusion.

Melee stamsorc is currently the second least played spec on PC NA (just behind ranged magblade) and there's a good reason for that. Most people don't know how to survive on a brawler stamsorc even if using Streak. This is especially true if they came from a class that has a good burst heal. It takes literally thousands of duels and outnumbered Cyrodiil fights to learn how to survive on a brawler stamsorc. I've gone through that learning process, so whenever people see me play stamsorc and ask "man how do you make it work? I can't survive when I play it", I always respond with "just die a lot until you learn how to not die".

All I want is a burst heal, that's it. The single most needed buff for both stam and magsorc is a burst heal. Everything else is a bonus. We NEED that burst heal bad. I really hope people who make sorc buff threads understand this. We need to push for 1 change at a time, and that change is a burst heal.

Nothing wrong in buffing all areas of the class at once to make it viable for a few years

Sorc was ok when crystal weapon was buffed and now it’s back to *** tier after the nerf. It took like 5 years to get a stamina morph of frag right ?
That’s what happens when you lean on one skill for the entire class

Even with the whole host of changes which op has suggested in the thread, I see the class still coming up short for solo pvp in comparison to nb with a 5 second insta gib timer.

That’s how far this class has fallen over the years. Anything less than A tier will always be an unplayable class in my book.

Plenty of ways to raise the ceiling as well so overbuffing the class shouldn’t be a problem.

The thing is I don't think its damage is a serious issue. Sure the class needs a lot more setting up but when we take into account of how tanky the meta has become, it makes more sense to nerf the tanky meta. A magsorc will still 1 shot any squishy with 22k armor and no damage mitigation passives. I take 10k-11k crit frags on a daily basis from Cyrodiil-ready builds, and I've dealt 9k crit frags on squishies in my hybrid build with Daedric Trickery back bar.

The problem is mitigation and crit damage are too easily accessible for some classes, which create tanky builds that can still dish out a lot of damage. Some classes can sit at 38k spell resistance in light armor while having 6k+ spell damage (Plar/Necro/DK) and 90%+ crit damage. Instead of buffing magsorc's damage which is not really necessary, why not nerf the easily accessible sources of mitigation and crit damage?

As for its survivability, there is no question that the class is lackluster in that aspect. In all my sorc buff threads, I've always asked for buffs to survivability because it's more important. Survivability buff in key abilities, by proxy, will also allow you to deal more damage because you can slot less defensive abilities and slot more debuff/damage abilities. If you have a burst heal, then you literally only need Hardened Ward and that burst heal for defense. That saves you 1 extra slot for another damage ability.

RemoryAzure

StaticWave wrote: »

Melee stamsorc is currently the second least played spec on PC NA (just behind ranged magblade)

magsorc is played like 20 times more than a ranged magblade. does it mean its better?

StaticWave

RemoryAzure wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Melee stamsorc is currently the second least played spec on PC NA (just behind ranged magblade)

magsorc is played like 20 times more than a ranged magblade. does it mean its better?

Yes? It’s literally better than ranged magblade lol.. the last time a ranged magblade won any dueling tournament on PC NA was 4 years ago.

RemoryAzure

StaticWave wrote: »

Yes? It’s literally better than ranged magblade lol.. the last time a ranged magblade won any dueling tournament on PC NA was 4 years ago.

ranged magblade has atleast all pros of a class - 2nd (iirc, after coag) strongest heal in the game, crit damage and chance passives, damage boost by incap and concealed, shade and cloak, nice burst skill, major evasion, and its spammable heals.

on the other hand, magsorc has... literally nothing? heal isnt reliable, no critdmg passive, no damage boosts, not even a single burst damage skill (i might be biased in this, but i hate frags coz of animation lock and u actually lose damage by using it, cweapon is kinda?? pointless after the nerf, and curse simply does like 1/2 of the damage of crushing shock, coz the most effective build on a magsorc right now is full crit charged draugrkin, since both sorc's passive heals and draugrkin set do not scale with stats (thus lower base damage on the skill makes draugrkin bonus give u more bonus damage percent-wise), but can crit, which makes crushing shock deal quite nice damage and its even better to slot bound aegis to get minor resolve/protection and 8% max mana for both damage and defense instead of any "burst" skill)

so, the only strong side of a magsorc is dark conversion which lets him feel comfortable on resources, but he lacks everything else, while magblade has everything, with the only downside of sitting always at 0 mana with 3-3.5k regen. i think magblade is way more superior to magsorc.

Pelanora

RemoryAzure wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Yes? It’s literally better than ranged magblade lol.. the last time a ranged magblade won any dueling tournament on PC NA was 4 years ago.

ranged magblade has atleast all pros of a class - 2nd (iirc, after coag) strongest heal in the game, crit damage and chance passives, damage boost by incap and concealed, shade and cloak, nice burst skill, major evasion, and its spammable heals.

on the other hand, magsorc has... literally nothing? heal isnt reliable, no critdmg passive, no damage boosts, not even a single burst damage skill (i might be biased in this, but i hate frags coz of animation lock and u actually lose damage by using it, cweapon is kinda?? pointless after the nerf, and curse simply does like 1/2 of the damage of crushing shock, coz the most effective build on a magsorc right now is full crit charged draugrkin, since both sorc's passive heals and draugrkin set do not scale with stats (thus lower base damage on the skill makes draugrkin bonus give u more bonus damage percent-wise), but can crit, which makes crushing shock deal quite nice damage and its even better to slot bound aegis to get minor resolve/protection and 8% max mana for both damage and defense instead of any "burst" skill)

so, the only strong side of a magsorc is dark conversion which lets him feel comfortable on resources, but he lacks everything else, while magblade has everything, with the only downside of sitting always at 0 mana with 3-3.5k regen. i think magblade is way more superior to magsorc.

That this kind of set/damage accounting is necessary in eso is why there's a 'skill gap' not any stupid weaving nonsense.

StaticWave

RemoryAzure wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Yes? It’s literally better than ranged magblade lol.. the last time a ranged magblade won any dueling tournament on PC NA was 4 years ago.

ranged magblade has atleast all pros of a class - 2nd (iirc, after coag) strongest heal in the game, crit damage and chance passives, damage boost by incap and concealed, shade and cloak, nice burst skill, major evasion, and its spammable heals.

on the other hand, magsorc has... literally nothing? heal isnt reliable, no critdmg passive, no damage boosts, not even a single burst damage skill (i might be biased in this, but i hate frags coz of animation lock and u actually lose damage by using it, cweapon is kinda?? pointless after the nerf, and curse simply does like 1/2 of the damage of crushing shock, coz the most effective build on a magsorc right now is full crit charged draugrkin, since both sorc's passive heals and draugrkin set do not scale with stats (thus lower base damage on the skill makes draugrkin bonus give u more bonus damage percent-wise), but can crit, which makes crushing shock deal quite nice damage and its even better to slot bound aegis to get minor resolve/protection and 8% max mana for both damage and defense instead of any "burst" skill)

so, the only strong side of a magsorc is dark conversion which lets him feel comfortable on resources, but he lacks everything else, while magblade has everything, with the only downside of sitting always at 0 mana with 3-3.5k regen. i think magblade is way more superior to magsorc.

You asked if magsorc is better than ranged magblade but brought up concealed weapon? That’s a melee magblade then and not part of your original question.

Yes, magsorc is better than RANGED magblade. I know because I have watched the last remaining magblade mains on PC NA die to magsorcs in every 1v1 tournament and normal duels.

It doesn’t matter if magblade has Healthy Offering. The class simply lacks reliable burst damag AT RANGE to do anything significant to a magsorc. A magsorc with Curse + Frag can easily match a magblade’s 18-20k bow proc when both of them crit, but you know what the difference is? A magblade’s burst is even more telegraphed than a magsorc’s burst. That alone makes magblade worse. Not only that, but a magblade’s ulti requires him to gap close whereas a magsorc can just pop overload and spam it until the magblade dies.

Literally every ranged magblade main on PC NA have swapped to magsorc for duels or played hybrid. Ranged magblade is the worst class in the game by far, and second is melee stamsorc.

StaticWave

To add insult to injury, as a fun little experiment I created a 40k HP ranged stamsorc with Absorbed Missile and Bone Shield to try and make shield stamsorc work. I had to use Cfrag and Curse for extra damage. You know what happened when I dueled ranged magblades? I almost killed them several times just from combining Cfrag + Curse + Bound Arms + Overload.

If a gimmick build like mine can still deal that much damage against a ranged magblade by combining multiple burst abilities, then why would a shield stacking magsorc in a real damage build be worse? It would absolutely demolish the magblade.

Melzo

StaticWave wrote: »

To add insult to injury, as a fun little experiment I created a 40k HP ranged stamsorc with Absorbed Missile and Bone Shield to try and make shield stamsorc work. I had to use Cfrag and Curse for extra damage. You know what happened when I dueled ranged magblades? I almost killed them several times just from combining Cfrag + Curse + Bound Arms + Overload.

If a gimmick build like mine can still deal that much damage against a ranged magblade by combining multiple burst abilities, then why would a shield stacking magsorc in a real damage build be worse? It would absolutely demolish the magblade.

You speak the matter. It is necessary to nerf the sorcerer so that he would be on a par with magnb.

RemoryAzure

StaticWave wrote: »

You asked if magsorc is better than ranged magblade but brought up concealed weapon? That’s a melee magblade then and not part of your original question.

A magsorc with Curse + Frag can easily match a magblade’s 18-20k bow proc when both of them crit, but you know what the difference is? A magblade’s burst is even more telegraphed than a magsorc’s burst. That alone makes magblade worse

i use concealed on my ranged magblade for a passive speed and damage boost on a front bar, it gives me free damage every time i leave stealth (which is sadly on a backbar, one of the downsides of ranged magblade, 1 more skillslot used and no speed boost while in stealth).

and in case of magsorc, u want to slot 2 skills that deal the same(???) damage as one on NB, and since curse (which never hit me for more than 3k noncrit and 4,5k crit, dunno how to make frag deal the rest 15k of mentioned 20k, it usually deals about 7-8k crit) has visible timing on a debuff bar and cfrag has travel speed as slow as specbow, its not hard to press block. and the most funny thing, that simple la/overload+crushing weave is not just much easier and somewhat not counterable (u wont dodge on every single cast, right?), but also does more damage than any magsorc's "burst damage", just slap ele sus and bound aegis on those 2 slots instead, draugrkin will do the rest for the damage

StaticWave wrote: »

then why would a shield stacking magsorc in a real damage build be worse?

coz "shield stacking" and "damage" are quite mutually exclusive to each other.

max mag build has nice shield, but suffer from many disadvantages - u still have to slot healing skill, under a hard pressure u have no enough time to cast both heal and shield and after any burst u basically run with a shield but with low hp and die to finishers, and the most important thing that u have to waste 17% of ur time (1 gcd every 6 sec) just keeping shield up.

and with all of this, max mag build gives less damage than attack power one (or literally any other), simply my fullcrit draurkin build has more damage on a skill tooltip due to set bonus but also increases status proc damage AND gets a full potential of khajit/shadow crits

just compared in an uesp build calc, without cp, my build, which is draugrkin + rallying cry + 1 trainee + 2 chudan + markyn, has 2.7k tooltip on a crushing shock + 330 from draugkin
and a full mag build which is grace + alfiq + 2 trainee + sithis + 1 magma, has 2.9k tooltip with 45k mana.
further comparing, status proc, for example concussion, deals 700 + 330 on a draugkin build, and just 800 on mana build, but i dunno if its of any use to go charged without draugkin, so im not sure if its worth considering.
and its 13k dmg skill tooltip on a draugkin build with all procs no-cp, which is just halfway between normal and proc cfrag without stupid animation lock for 1.5 sec after proc cfrag that renders u unable to do anything, or up to 17.5k considering poison enchant and its status proc with draugrkin bonus, which can be further increased with crits.

and without rallying cry u are simply a free frag to any NB (and warden now has even more crit damage)

PhoenixGrey

StaticWave wrote: »

RemoryAzure wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Melee stamsorc is currently the second least played spec on PC NA (just behind ranged magblade)

magsorc is played like 20 times more than a ranged magblade. does it mean its better?

Yes? It’s literally better than ranged magblade lol.. the last time a ranged magblade won any dueling tournament on PC NA was 4 years ago.

When a spectral bow recap says 20k on my death recap I’m not sure what to say.

Open world pvp is where mostly pvp’ers are. Idk if ppl care about how a class performs in field

StaticWave

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

RemoryAzure wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Melee stamsorc is currently the second least played spec on PC NA (just behind ranged magblade)

magsorc is played like 20 times more than a ranged magblade. does it mean its better?

Yes? It’s literally better than ranged magblade lol.. the last time a ranged magblade won any dueling tournament on PC NA was 4 years ago.

When a spectral bow recap says 20k on my death recap I’m not sure what to say.

Open world pvp is where mostly pvp’ers are. Idk if ppl care about how a class performs in field

That's normal. You also have to understand that a NB's combo is even more telegraphed than a NB's, and it cannot be spammed. I could sit here and hard cast Crystal Frag until it procs and deal 10-11k damage for the procced hit. Add in Curse every 3s and I'm getting a reliable 15-20k burst.

As a stamsorc I have no issues against a ranged magblade that isn't using 2-3 extra DoTs. Their offense is much more predictable and easier to deal with than a magsorc's. Oh let's not forget the Overload spam. Saving up to 200 ulti to spam 8-9 Overloads is super easy and puts so much pressure on the opponent to waste resources trying to survive.

StaticWave

RemoryAzure wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

You asked if magsorc is better than ranged magblade but brought up concealed weapon? That’s a melee magblade then and not part of your original question.

A magsorc with Curse + Frag can easily match a magblade’s 18-20k bow proc when both of them crit, but you know what the difference is? A magblade’s burst is even more telegraphed than a magsorc’s burst. That alone makes magblade worse

i use concealed on my ranged magblade for a passive speed and damage boost on a front bar, it gives me free damage every time i leave stealth (which is sadly on a backbar, one of the downsides of ranged magblade, 1 more skillslot used and no speed boost while in stealth).

and in case of magsorc, u want to slot 2 skills that deal the same(???) damage as one on NB, and since curse (which never hit me for more than 3k noncrit and 4,5k crit, dunno how to make frag deal the rest 15k of mentioned 20k, it usually deals about 7-8k crit) has visible timing on a debuff bar and cfrag has travel speed as slow as specbow, its not hard to press block. and the most funny thing, that simple la/overload+crushing weave is not just much easier and somewhat not counterable (u wont dodge on every single cast, right?), but also does more damage than any magsorc's "burst damage", just slap ele sus and bound aegis on those 2 slots instead, draugrkin will do the rest for the damage

StaticWave wrote: »

then why would a shield stacking magsorc in a real damage build be worse?

coz "shield stacking" and "damage" are quite mutually exclusive to each other.

max mag build has nice shield, but suffer from many disadvantages - u still have to slot healing skill, under a hard pressure u have no enough time to cast both heal and shield and after any burst u basically run with a shield but with low hp and die to finishers, and the most important thing that u have to waste 17% of ur time (1 gcd every 6 sec) just keeping shield up.

and with all of this, max mag build gives less damage than attack power one (or literally any other), simply my fullcrit draurkin build has more damage on a skill tooltip due to set bonus but also increases status proc damage AND gets a full potential of khajit/shadow crits

just compared in an uesp build calc, without cp, my build, which is draugrkin + rallying cry + 1 trainee + 2 chudan + markyn, has 2.7k tooltip on a crushing shock + 330 from draugkin
and a full mag build which is grace + alfiq + 2 trainee + sithis + 1 magma, has 2.9k tooltip with 45k mana.
further comparing, status proc, for example concussion, deals 700 + 330 on a draugkin build, and just 800 on mana build, but i dunno if its of any use to go charged without draugkin, so im not sure if its worth considering.
and its 13k dmg skill tooltip on a draugkin build with all procs no-cp, which is just halfway between normal and proc cfrag without stupid animation lock for 1.5 sec after proc cfrag that renders u unable to do anything, or up to 17.5k considering poison enchant and its status proc with draugrkin bonus, which can be further increased with crits.

and without rallying cry u are simply a free frag to any NB (and warden now has even more crit damage)

A pure ranged magblade doesn't use Concealed to do damage. If you do, you're no longer a pure ranged magblade.

Yes, Frag + Curse deal the same damage as Spectral Bow, but Frag + Curse are also better than Spectral Bow. If you dodge Spectral Bow, you're safe. It's not like Curse + Frag where if you dodge Frag, you still eat damage from Curse. Curse cannot be blocked/dodged and will still damage a NB in stealth and reveals him from stealth. Frag can be hard casted like a spammable and will proc itself to deal extra damage. You could literally cast Curse every 3 seconds and hard cast Frag until it procs itself and have both of them land within 1s of each other. I know because I've done that on my hybrid Sorc. I literally only have Curse + Frag as main damage. I don't even light weave yet I could still kill people who aren't tanks.

Yes, I know shield stacking has its weaknesses, but if we're talking about pure ranged magblade vs ranged magsorc, then there is no question that ranged magblade < ranged magsorc. This has been time tested year after year when some of the top magblade duelers on PC NA die to top magsorcs. Ranged magblade is even worse in Openworld PvP than magsorc. Magsorcs literally cannot complain that they are the worst spec when ranged magblade exists.

PhoenixGrey

StaticWave wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

RemoryAzure wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Melee stamsorc is currently the second least played spec on PC NA (just behind ranged magblade)

magsorc is played like 20 times more than a ranged magblade. does it mean its better?

Yes? It’s literally better than ranged magblade lol.. the last time a ranged magblade won any dueling tournament on PC NA was 4 years ago.

When a spectral bow recap says 20k on my death recap I’m not sure what to say.

Open world pvp is where mostly pvp’ers are. Idk if ppl care about how a class performs in field

That's normal. You also have to understand that a NB's combo is even more telegraphed than a NB's, and it cannot be spammed. I could sit here and hard cast Crystal Frag until it procs and deal 10-11k damage for the procced hit. Add in Curse every 3s and I'm getting a reliable 15-20k burst.

As a stamsorc I have no issues against a ranged magblade that isn't using 2-3 extra DoTs. Their offense is much more predictable and easier to deal with than a magsorc's. Oh let's not forget the Overload spam. Saving up to 200 ulti to spam 8-9 Overloads is super easy and puts so much pressure on the opponent to waste resources trying to survive.

You can have a a lot of mag sorcs overload spamming and you can react by dodge rolling or face tank it. You can run maximum damage on a mag sorc and still not have a burst combo hit as hard as a spectral bow

There is no counterplay or reaction after a nb fires a 20k spectral bow and cloaking immediately after.

StaticWave

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

You can have a a lot of mag sorcs overload spamming and you can react by dodge rolling or face tank it. You can run maximum damage on a mag sorc and still not have a burst combo hit as hard as a spectral bow

How many Spectral Bows can a NB spam at you?

And yes, you're correct, but that's the fundamental difference of both classes. Sorc's burst is more sustained pressure whereas NB's burst is in 1 big hit. You avoid the big hit and you're safe. You avoid Frag but there's still Curse + Overload getting thrown at you.

I have a much easier time dealing with magblades than magsorcs because I know the moment I avoid Bow Proc, I'm safe for another 5 seconds, whereas with Sorc I still have to avoid other stuff and there's very little room to breathe.

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

There is no counterplay or reaction after a nb fires a 20k spectral bow and cloaking immediately after.

If a NB fires a 20k Spectral Bow at you and you died, you either got ganked, didn't pay attention, or got outplayed. That's just how it is. If you see the NB and knows he's coming for you, then it shouldn't be hard to avoid the 20k Bow.

StaticWave

And part of the reason why our experiences are so different is because I main stamsorc and you main magsorc. I have no burst heal, so for me it's much easier to deal with magblades vs a magsorc. I've dueled top tier magblades and top tier magsorcs and it's much much harder to duel the magsorc, especially during the draugrkin meta.

Turtle_Bot

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I was also running pure stamsorc alongside magsorc quite a lot up until about a year ago (I have 2 of each class, stam and mag versions and ran both versions of sorc a lot over the years with more time on my mag (it being my first and main)), so it's not like I have never played stamsorc.

It has always felt stronger than magsorc due to its access to the stronger weapons, their abilities and passives and just how much stronger on average stamina has been over magicka for the majority of the past few years, especially for damage and mitigation up until they did the hybridisation changes.

Stamsorc has always lacked a burst heal outside of rally, but stamsorc has also always had the better and more reliable self HoT option in vigor (outside of U33 where radiating was as strong as vigor after it got buffed).

Also bow/bow sorc has always been strong (even without the overtuned U34 crystal weapon and broken savage werewolf builds) The issue was almost nobody bothered to run it since the other classes were always getting buffs and becoming the FOTM classes. Sure stamsorc never had the staying power of the old shield stacking magsorcs, but it had far more mobility, higher damage and a freer time avoiding damage than magsorc had, so it always had its strengths over magsorc, especially after the still unfinished max stats/damage rework that gutted magsorcs main defensive options in shields.

Granted, it's not leagues ahead, but stamsorc has always had plenty of options over magsorc that has almost always kept it above magsorc, at least for pvp.

Hybrid everything is stronger than pure stam/mag counterparts currently. That's just how they've developed this game over the past year with hybridization. There are still stam and mag focused hybrid builds though that lean more into 1 or the other stat and I still find stam leaning hybrid sorc builds much stronger than mag leaning hybrid sorc builds. Mostly because of the access to the stamina defensive options that allow the class to stay alive longer to deal its damage.

You played stamsorc but I can guarantee you that you never played it religiously like I did. 5 years of literally tens of thousands of duels and over 4k hours of cyrodiil PvP and BG combined against new players, average players, and some of the best players on PCNA for me to come to the conclusion that stamsorc has always been, on average, inferior to magsorc.

I could count on my hands the amount of stamsorcs that wasn't a bombard spammer in an organized group. That 's how bad the class was except for several patches where it could abuse proc sets. Its strength largely relied on sets and when those got nerfed so did it. Most people who tried the class gave up and complained to me that it's too squishy. I mean how can I blame them? The class literally has Vigor, Dark Deal, and Surge, that's it. If you play it correctly aka kite a lot, then you can survive but trying to sit and face tank several people like some magsorcs do? Not a chance. The moment you drop to 50% HP you're already dead. There's no burst heal to save you. That's why in every 1vX video I've done, even in a brawler build, I try to kite as much as possible and always move fast. I wouldn't need to if I could sit and heal to full with 1 button.

The benefit of more weapon skills mean nothing because most of the weapon abilities have been severely nerfed. Why would I take Dizzying Swing over Curse or Frag? Even hard casting Frag is better than spamming Dizzying Swing, and I've done it on my MELEE hybrid sorc... Why would you use Bow/Bow sorc when magsorc exists? Bow/Bow sorc without proc sets is literally just a bombard spammer build and it has no use outside of that. I would know because I played it. I've played just about every build for the class and I'm pretty sure it's not as strong as people made it out to be. I've also fought those bow/bow builds with double proc sets as a melee stamsorc in stat sets and I didn't feel much pressure.

Options don't mean much when they are equally bad lol..

I definitely haven't played stamsorc as much as you have, just wanted to state that I do play it as well.

I think our viewpoints are always going to slightly disagree because of the "grass is greener on the other side" effect. You see magsorc facetanking with shields and it looks super strong, I see stamsorc running around with so much more movement and agility and think its super strong.

Definitely agree that both mag and stam sorc need buffs, especially to the reliability of its healing (I will always feel mag needs more, but that's just my opinion).

Tbh I mostly want to see them take sorc back to focus on the physical/lightning split that its passives focus around instead of being pigeonholed into pets, heavy attacks and broken/bugged proc set abusing builds which is where all of the classes long lasting buffs have been placed for years now. I just want to play the sorcerer class as a lightning wielding mage (and of course for stamsorcs to be able to play their battlemage) using the class abilities that the class was originally (and still is) advertised as and have them be viable for more than just the top 0.1% of players.

PhoenixGrey

StaticWave wrote: »

And part of the reason why our experiences are so different is because I main stamsorc and you main magsorc. I have no burst heal, so for me it's much easier to deal with magblades vs a magsorc. I've dueled top tier magblades and top tier magsorcs and it's much much harder to duel the magsorc, especially during the draugrkin meta.

I agree when it comes to dueling

Open world is where I am seeing a problem

You could be having one of your best fights and all it takes is a moment where a day 1 nb fires a spectral bow in the midst and your fun ends. If I had dueled that nb I would’ve probably packed ‘‘em up.

This gank could be prevented on most classes except sorc. For eg on my warden I just have the shimerring shield up at all times.

With sorc you had a chance with old BOL and old shields. Old shields could not be crit and BOL absorbed projectiles.

There is a severe lack of scalable defense on both mag and stam sorc.

RemoryAzure

StaticWave wrote: »

Magsorcs literally cannot complain that they are the worst spec when ranged magblade exists.

dunno, i think the only ranged magblade's problem is mana. and if it is weaker than magsorc, according to ur opinion, then... the only playable ranged (mag?) spec in the game is warden?

StaticWave

RemoryAzure wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Magsorcs literally cannot complain that they are the worst spec when ranged magblade exists.

dunno, i think the only ranged magblade's problem is mana. and if it is weaker than magsorc, according to ur opinion, then... the only playable ranged (mag?) spec in the game is warden?

Not just my opinion, but pretty much every top tier player on both PC NA and PC EU. Like I said, no ranged magblade has won a single tournament in over 4 years, and tournaments often have some of the best PvPers participating.

The problem with ranged magblade is predictable burst. You think sorc’s offense is bad? Try playing a magblade against a decent player. It’s so easy to avoid a ranged magblade burst you can literally play the game without volume and still anticipate their combo.

Ranged magden is on the same boat as ranged magblade, but unlike ranged magblade, magden still has value in a group fight.

RemoryAzure

StaticWave wrote: »

The problem with ranged magblade is predictable burst. You think sorc’s offense is bad?

Ranged magden is on the same boat as ranged magblade, but unlike ranged magblade, magden still has value in a group fight.

<> yes, sorc's offense is even more predictable than magblade's (frags are brighter, better visibility, and im 99% sure that curse IS blockable, so u was wrong about that), but also requires 1 more skillslot for the same damage (??? i still think its less, coz of sorc's lack of crit damage and chance and damage boosters like 3k pen from the passive, concealed (it IS used on a ranged magblade) and incap)
(and i still think that those 2 slots are better to be replaced with bound aegis and elem sus, will give more profit and not counterable)

<> sorry, what? ranged magden in current meta is not the only competitive ranged spec in the game, but also 2nd strongest spec in the game after stam/hybrid melee nb.
did u also miss his changes, coz earlier u said u havent played in months?

PhoenixGrey

StaticWave wrote: »

RemoryAzure wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Magsorcs literally cannot complain that they are the worst spec when ranged magblade exists.

dunno, i think the only ranged magblade's problem is mana. and if it is weaker than magsorc, according to ur opinion, then... the only playable ranged (mag?) spec in the game is warden?

Not just my opinion, but pretty much every top tier player on both PC NA and PC EU. Like I said, no ranged magblade has won a single tournament in over 4 years, and tournaments often have some of the best PvPers participating.

The problem with ranged magblade is predictable burst. You think sorc’s offense is bad? Try playing a magblade against a decent player. It’s so easy to avoid a ranged magblade burst you can literally play the game without volume and still anticipate their combo.

Ranged magden is on the same boat as ranged magblade, but unlike ranged magblade, magden still has value in a group fight.

I believe the ice warden is probably the only spec in the game which stands a chance against the immortal nb.

ice warden is super frustrating to play against and basically unkillable 1vx machine in open world if played right. In comparision to nb where a day 1 noob can count till 5 and 1vx with 25k spectral bows.

Still I am fine with the way it is as you need something like that to go toe to toe with the all powerful, supreme, omnipotent nb.

Mag and stam sorc are a billion leagues below both those specs. It’s not even funny at this point.

Pelanora

Lol people, if you've pivoted to debating that magblade is worst in game, in a game that loves buffing nightblades, i think you'll lose the case for fixing sorc 🤣

axi

Pelanora wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

I have no issue with discussing sorc changes. The thing is most of the people who discusses them want to bring sorcs kit on pair with others while also keeping streak untouched or barely changed which is a collosal mistake which has been proven numerous times already.

So overbuffing sorc is the only colossal mistake which can be made so far.

What about the rest which are already in the game ?

When it comes to collosal mistakes than yes. Overbuffing sorc while keeping streak relatively untouched is the biggest mistake possible PvP wise. Doesn't mean there were no other mistakes being made but we had this argument few times already. Fact that mistakes were made in the past on other classes does not justify overbuffing sorc. As for currently overbuffed features some deserve tuning down.

Let’s catch the lowest possible hanging fruit because it’s the easiest.

Your entire argument only holds value if everything else is ideally balanced and we are talking about overbuffing sorc. Right now as it stands mag sorc is the worst pvp class by a mile.

Also it’s just your opinion that sorc will be overbuffed without nerfing streak

I can also then state my opinion that we can start with blanket nerfs to nb by reducing all their damage by 30%. Because nb spammables like surprise attack hit harder than sorc ultimates.

I don't see how my argument would hold value only if everything else would be ideally balanced. You are creating some wierd ruleset to justify Your own agenda. Care to explain Your reasoning?

I wouldnt say magsorc is "the worst by a mile". It's mediocre for sure but still have its use and places where it can shine although some of the playstyles required for that may not please more classic magsorc enjoyers because many people will just say "I dont like to use this and that" or "i dont like to play that way".

This game history has proven that even minor tweaks made incorrectly to magsorc may bring complete mayhen just like it happened last time ZoS tried to buff sorc kit with "slight" change to a rune cage.

And no as I've said many times it's not just my opinion. It's a fact proven many times throughout games history. Accept it or not, but it's a fact. Streak is too far ahead of everything else making sorc always problematic to balance properly.

Well nerfs to nb You so desperatly seem to need actually happened around 3-4 years ago. Nb in PvP lost like 15-20% of its dmg at that time and was in a pretty bad shape to the point many people stopped to play it. Current buffs are result of reverting these changes and a try to finally make magblade decent at PvP because magblade outside of some gank memes was bottom tier for way longer than magsorc is at its current state. As for Your argumentation about supprise attack vs sorc ultimates someone could counter it with equally silly reasoning that sorc needs a dmg nerf because crystal frag when spammed hits harder than supprise attack. Comparing abilities in a vaccum is kinda pointless.

Reality is that mag sorc is still the worst pvp spec. Nb is the most busted pvp spec.

There is no fantasy world where mag sorc is busted and nb is weak. You are still complaining like that fantasy has become a reality

Want to bet or create a poll on whether there will be nb buffs or mag sorc buffs next patch ?
My vote will always be for the former and I am never wrong.

We can complain about sorc buffs when they actually happen

Reality is also that magblade was worst PvP spec for longer than magsorc and magsorc atleast share that spot with some other setups when magblade was just behind everyone at some point.

It's not fantasy. There was time in the game when magsorc was busted and stamblade was between mediocre and ok at best and magblade was useless at the same time. Tables have turned.

I was never complaining about sorc buffs. I just pointed out that streak is the thing that holds sorc back from getting much needed improvements.

It’s been a few years for mag sorc at the bottom tier. The last time mag sorc was decent was during pet sorc meta.

Reality is the present not the past. Talking about mag blade is the past.

I don’t see a problem buffing streak and the rest of the sorc toolkit.

NB receives buffs every patch. What’s wrong if sorc receives it once in a while.

Buffing other skills while nerfing streak is not really a buff.

No it hasn't been few years for magsorc to be a bottom tier. Excluding few first motnhs of the game and last few months magsorc was never bottom tier in PvP. And even during last few months there are certain areas in pvP where other classes can perform worse than magsorc

Here are for example tier lists made by a group of experienced PvP players who discussed PvP balance and then together were coming up with tier lists for a certain patch : 2020 greymoor https://imgbb.com/tmWYVH3 , 2021 flames of ambition https://imgbb.com/vQ8Lpnd , 2022 ascending tides https://imgbb.com/LZX4nd4 . As You can see during last 3 years sorc was never ranked as bottom class at any of PvP types. Quite frankly he was always in the upper half, scoring usually between S and B tier. Yes we can see drop in effectiveness with each patch and getting lower notes but magsorcs were far from "being a bottom tier for few years". Funnily enough nightblade which You praise so much as being always the best and always buffed was still ranked in bottom tier at certain PvP aspects like smallscale Cyrodill PvP.

You may not see a problem for buffing streak and rest of the kit because You've proven beyond any doubt a complete bias towards magsorc and that You don't want a balanced game You just want Your class to be broken once again.

I told this like 5 times already but it seems like I need to say it again. The reason why nightblade was getting buffs for last few patches is because at some point ZoS overnerfed that class which they later fixed with multiple buffs plus magblade was in dire need on buffs because as I already said that class was the weakest PvP setup for way longer than magsorc. Isn't that funny that sorc despite not reciving buffs or even reciving nerfs for so long still managed to be in upper half of tier list for while magblade needed few patches of strong buffs just to be ok right now? What's wrong with sorc reciving it once in a while? Well every time sorc recived noticable buffs it was becoming the new worst PvP meta.

Nerfing streak is the only way to give strong buffs to other parts of magsorc kit without completly breaking game balance. With no nerfs to streak sorc may get minor tweaks at best and to be honest minor tweaks is all that class needs atm.

Imagine posting class tiers created by a nb main. Not sure why I should even see it.

For solo pvp nightblade particularly the stamina one has always been strong in the history of the game. That’s the only pvp category I care about. I want sorc to be on equal footing or better.

Imagine not reading full list of people who made that class tier list. I've literally mentioned that fact in my previous post. There were many people who took part in making that list including devoted sorc mains like Malcolm. It's signed with Sniker's name only because discussions were happening on his discord and he was the person putting all information gathered together. There is literally list of most involved people at the bottom of each screen. I guess Your bias made You blind to that fact.

If You care only about solo PvP than Your bias is visible even more because while You are claiming that magsorc was the weakest for years, tier lists provided above put magsorc at S tier in years 2020 and 2021 for solo CP Cyrodill while stamblae was A+ which makes Your claims of sorc "being bottom tier for years" even more silly. Even if people in that list would made some mistakes You cannot claim that 25+ experienced PvP players made a mistake of putting sorc at high spots instead of the last spots. Sorry but it doesn't work that way. I think it's a time for You to accept the reality.

This is getting hysterical. I'm not sure what is really motivating this, there's no way objectively a class with as few buffs as sorc has, in a game where buffs are king, will ever be as good as a class with many many, like NB. Let alone all the explanations that have been provided here in how sorc works in play. Or in all the other threads.

"Buffs are king" is the most misguided phrase someone can use when it comes to class balance in PvP. No buffs are not king. They are important but they are never a king.

For example right now one of the strongest setups in PvP is a hybrid DK. Total amount of buffs and debuffs uniqely provided by his class kit in the most notorious setup is 4. Yes FOUR. At best it can be 5. It's a major fracture from noxious breath , minor brutality from a passive, major savagery/prophecy from flames of oblivion (I count this as one since they are basically the same right now and every skill provides both) and major resolve from volatile armor. You can count major fortitude from coagulating blood as a 5 but tristat pots also provides that and since that setup is vampire lv 3, health regen buffs can be ignored. With only 4 effective buffs provided by a class kit that setup is capable to be unkillable and score high amount of kills. How would You explain that phenomenon? Shouldn't setup with only 4 class buffs in his kit be a weakling?

Nightblade should be king in PvP since 2015 by Your standards because this class always had the highest amount of major/minor buffs and debuffs. When stamina nightblade was doing fine, magicka nightblade was considered the worst pvp character for years despite having acces to even more buffs through class kit than stamina version had. Suprisingly sorc that had way less major buffs and debuffs was considered one of the top PvP classes for years. How would You explain that phenomenon?

You see charts like the one You linked are fun to watch but they do not tell anything about real strenght of classes. There is lot of context that needs to be taken under consideration when judging strenght of certain class. Blind look at charts is not enough to prove anything.

PhoenixGrey

Pelanora wrote: »

Lol people, if you've pivoted to debating that magblade is worst in game, in a game that loves buffing nightblades, i think you'll lose the case for fixing sorc 🤣

At this point I will be surprised if sorc was buffed as much as magblade

I mean that would mean an exponential amount of buffs.

Probably not gonna happen in a nb game

StaticWave

RemoryAzure wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

The problem with ranged magblade is predictable burst. You think sorc’s offense is bad?

Ranged magden is on the same boat as ranged magblade, but unlike ranged magblade, magden still has value in a group fight.

<> yes, sorc's offense is even more predictable than magblade's (frags are brighter, better visibility, and im 99% sure that curse IS blockable, so u was wrong about that), but also requires 1 more skillslot for the same damage (??? i still think its less, coz of sorc's lack of crit damage and chance and damage boosters like 3k pen from the passive, concealed (it IS used on a ranged magblade) and incap)
(and i still think that those 2 slots are better to be replaced with bound aegis and elem sus, will give more profit and not counterable)

<> sorry, what? ranged magden in current meta is not the only competitive ranged spec in the game, but also 2nd strongest spec in the game after stam/hybrid melee nb.
did u also miss his changes, coz earlier u said u havent played in months?

"Curse IS blockable"..No disrespect, but I'm going to stop taking your comment seriously after that statement.