Upcoming PTS Combat & Balance Adjustments

Billium813

JanTanhide wrote: »

Tanis-Stormbinder wrote: »

Last PTS patch before certification and No fixes to restoration staff heavy attacks, No buffs to Templars Jabs/Puncturing Sweeps, No word on medium weaving attack weaving raising the skill gap level. I have been playing since Beta and just canceled my sub. Tired of all these negative sweeping changes.

Same here. Canceled.

Same. Instead of making minor updates, fixing bugs, and working on new content, they feel the need to change everything? They are focusing too much on the 0.2% of the game (top dps runners) and stating that these changes will be better for new players (which is completely unfounded, unproven, and apparently requires wide sweeping changes)

Meanwhile, High Isle dailies are still bugged, I report achievement, gameplay, & graphix bugs almost daily. When was the last time one of these developers actually went out and played with randoms? They focus too much on their internal testing groups and nebulous feedback reports. Go play like an average player (grind CP at common locations, do loads of dailies, PUG in IC, PUG vet dungeons / trials with low CP (listen to players in game), look at achievements with low clear rates (bugged), build off meta / ask random players for their builds).
Stop focusing on established trial group builds or trying to cater to new players with your changes! ZOS, I challenge your understanding of what makes good, new player experiences in the first place! It seems like you make these changes, but they actually run counter to what you are trying to do. How do you really know what a new player wants from this game? You think they want it to be easier? Since when does a new player, filling out feedback on mechanics they have been playing with for 8 hours, know what is good for the game?

React

Dark Cloak (morph):
This morph once again heals for Max Health per tick, rather than missing health.
Reduced the base healing by approximately 42% compared to the live version.
This morph has a new added functionality where the Heal over Time is increased by 150% when not moving.

The newest iteration of dark cloak is a mistake, in both PVE and PVP.

In PVP, this destroys the functionality of the skill for non-cloak nightblades. Brawlers, hybrids, and pure magicka nightblades relied on this skill to be a consistent heal over time. You simply cannot stand still in any meaningful situation in pvp. The only PVP playstyle this enables is pure troll tanking. What happened to "play how you want"? Why are we being forced to play nightblade either as a cloak spamming ganker or as a full troll tank?

In PVE, I have seen numerous tanks saying that they are too mobile to make use of a skill like this. It encourages them to stand in AOEs and sacrifice positioning to get a decent self heal, which seems redundant.

Many people would like for this to just be returned to a normal heal over time ability, rather than one with an unusable condition.

Billium813

React wrote: »

Dark Cloak (morph):
This morph once again heals for Max Health per tick, rather than missing health.
Reduced the base healing by approximately 42% compared to the live version.
This morph has a new added functionality where the Heal over Time is increased by 150% when not moving.

The newest iteration of dark cloak is a mistake, in both PVE and PVP.

In PVP, this destroys the functionality of the skill for non-cloak nightblades. Brawlers, hybrids, and pure magicka nightblades relied on this skill to be a consistent heal over time. You simply cannot stand still in any meaningful situation in pvp. The only PVP playstyle this enables is pure troll tanking. What happened to "play how you want"? Why are we being forced to play nightblade either as a cloak spamming ganker or as a full troll tank?

In PVE, I have seen numerous tanks saying that they are too mobile to make use of a skill like this. It encourages them to stand in AOEs and sacrifice positioning to get a decent self heal, which seems redundant.

Many people would like for this to just be returned to a normal heal over time ability, rather than one with an unusable condition.

Full disclosure, I don't play NB. Perhaps my takes are just wrong.

To take devils advocate, IMO, one of the main reasons for a morph is to further refine an ability to a specific play style. The generic skill can do one thing, but the morphs can be much more fine grained. Shadowy Disguise seems more damage oriented and Dark Cloak seems more defensive oriented. If you want to be a "brawler" "DPS" NB, it seems like Shadowy Disguise is flavored more. If you want to tank as NB, seems like Dark Cloak is a better flavor. If you want to be a DPS NB and have a good heal... some classes don't have to be that well rounded. There are generic skills in non-class skill lines that may be more suited to your specific build.

IMO, classes should have SOME identity and that will inherently restrict some abilities and grant others! Templar should be the BEST, most well rounded at healing for instance. DK should be the most well rounded for tanking. That means other classes CAN HAVE the ability to heal or tank in their class specific skills, but they should be more restrictive or niche. That's when weapon skills and guild skills kick in. There should be a give/take and players are experiencing that with these recent changes. I think it's better for the game if each class is like this.

"Play however you want" doesn't mean "we will make every build fit every playstyle AND be the best at it".

velt88_ESO

Billium813 wrote: »

Full disclosure, I don't play NB. Perhaps my takes are just wrong.

To take devils advocate, IMO, one of the main reasons for a morph is to further refine an ability to a specific play style. The generic skill can do one thing, but the morphs can be much more fine grained. Shadowy Disguise seems more damage oriented and Dark Cloak seems more defensive oriented. If you want to be a "brawler" "DPS" NB, it seems like Shadowy Disguise is flavored more. If you want to tank as NB, seems like Dark Cloak is a better flavor. If you want to be a DPS NB and have a good heal... some classes don't have to be that well rounded. There are generic skills in non-class skill lines that may be more suited to your specific build.

IMO, classes should have SOME identity and that will inherently restrict some abilities and grant others! Templar should be the BEST, most well rounded at healing for instance. DK should be the most well rounded for tanking. That means other classes CAN HAVE the ability to heal or tank in their class specific skills, but they should be more restrictive or niche. That's when weapon skills and guild skills kick in. There should be a give/take and players are experiencing that with these recent changes. I think it's better for the game if each class is like this.

"Play however you want" doesn't mean "we will make every build fit every playstyle AND be the best at it".

I don't think incentivizing tanks to stand still is really a good niche. Think about the type of person who is going to be playing a nightblade. They probably have ADHD, chug energy drinks and are looking for fast paced gameplay. They probably jump constantly, and strafe left and right even when tanking to simulate standing still.

Maybe that's just me. I'm always moving, even when I'm not moving.

It's fun to move around.

This change incentivizes you to stand still -- It's like the developers are saying "You aren't allowed to enjoy yourself while you're tanking."

Billium813

velt88_ESO wrote: »

I don't think incentivizing tanks to stand still is really a good niche.

Within reason, it's kinda their whole thing, right? "Tanks" that roll dodge all over the place are REALLY annoying to the rest of the group that is focusing the threat.

velt88_ESO wrote: »

Think about the type of person who is going to be playing a nightblade. They probably have ADHD, chug energy drinks and are looking for fast paced gameplay. They probably jump constantly, and strafe left and right even when tanking to simulate standing still.

Wat? I think you're being a bit narrow in your view of players playing specific classes and have a personal beef with just standing still... It seems like a perfectly fine restriction to me. Your views on it messing with PvP dynamics seems ok, but maybe Dark Cloak just won't be that good in PvP anymore or just will be limited to more niche playstyles? There are healing alternatives?

As far as offering constructive feedback on the new Dark Cloak... perhaps the healing is +150% if walking or staying still, but disabled if sprinting? Could incentivize builds that use Swift Jewelry...

velt88_ESO wrote: »

This change incentivizes you to stand still -- It's like the developers are saying "You aren't allowed to enjoy yourself while you're tanking."

You know standing still and not doing anything are two different things, right? Range attacks don't require you to move. You can still use skills while standing still. NBs often stand still in cloak, DPS NBs can still parse standing still... Tanks stand still, but use abilities and taunt... They may shuffle a bit, so maybe the skill can be a bit more open to movement, but it shouldn't enter the realm of feeling like an AOE heal on the ground (Templar) and should feel distinctly different.

Jazraena

Billium813 wrote: »

velt88_ESO wrote: »

I don't think incentivizing tanks to stand still is really a good niche.

Within reason, it's kinda their whole thing, right? "Tanks" that roll dodge all over the place are REALLY annoying to the rest of the group that is focusing the threat.

velt88_ESO wrote: »

Think about the type of person who is going to be playing a nightblade. They probably have ADHD, chug energy drinks and are looking for fast paced gameplay. They probably jump constantly, and strafe left and right even when tanking to simulate standing still.

Wat? I think you're being a bit narrow in your view of players playing specific classes and have a personal beef with just standing still... It seems like a perfectly fine restriction to me. Your views on it messing with PvP dynamics seems ok, but maybe Dark Cloak just won't be that good in PvP anymore or just will be limited to more niche playstyles? There are healing alternatives?

As far as offering constructive feedback on the new Dark Cloak... perhaps the healing is +150% if walking or staying still, but disabled if sprinting? Could incentivize builds that use Swift Jewelry...

It's even more eyeroll inducing as the autocrit-but-only-from-flank-but-only-every-4-second change to Surprise Attack. At least SA is just pointless, but forcing NB tanks to stay still is both counterintuitive to the more mobile gameplay ZOS attempts to create and often actively punishes the tank for things beyond their control.

They also better never add any mechanic that you have to roll out of ever again. Seriously, try staying immobile while tanking Fang Lair HM.

Billium813

velt88_ESO wrote: »

They also better never add any mechanic that you have to roll out of ever again. Seriously, try staying immobile while tanking Fang Lair HM.

Not to be too argumentative, but there are moments where you can stand still. Perhaps you can find windows to stand still and this skill gets better the more skill the tank has? Just cause the fight is dynamic doesn't mean a skilled player can't find time for a 3 second burst heal. It doesn't have to have a 100% uptime to be playable.

styroporiane

Sorry ZOS... but i don't pay any cent for this chaotic adjustments. Not any more.

Jazraena

Billium813 wrote: »

velt88_ESO wrote: »

They also better never add any mechanic that you have to roll out of ever again. Seriously, try staying immobile while tanking Fang Lair HM.

Not to be too argumentative, but there are moments where you can stand still. Perhaps you can find windows to stand still and this skill gets better the more skill the tank has? Just cause the fight is dynamic doesn't mean a skilled player can't find time for a 3 second burst heal. It doesn't have to have a 100% uptime to be playable.

"Terms and conditions apply" is not worth my bar space, sorry. I need a heal that works when I need it, and in several fights, like for example mentioned Fang Lair HM, those moments may well involve movement.

Isteris

I stayed away from the PTS this time but watched with interest how ZOS would react to the overwhelmingly negative feed back. I have just popped in to pts to see for myself and rather than a long rambling rant I will just say it left me feeling sad. I hope ZOS have their tin hats ready cos when this goes live the negative feed back they have had thus far will be a small drop in ocean compared to the tsunami that is coming.

Necrotech_Master

Isteris wrote: »

I stayed away from the PTS this time but watched with interest how ZOS would react to the overwhelmingly negative feed back. I have just popped in to pts to see for myself and rather than a long rambling rant I will just say it left me feeling sad. I hope ZOS have their tin hats ready cos when this goes live the negative feed back they have had thus far will be a small drop in ocean compared to the tsunami that is coming.

thats kind of what im seeing, if only 10-15% of the playerbase even frequents the forums, and 80-95% of the feedback from the forums is negative, you can only imagine how that would extrapolate to the rest of the player base

at this point is a "sit back and grab a beer/popcorn and enjoy the show" before saying "i told you so" lol

Aldoss

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Isteris wrote: »

I stayed away from the PTS this time but watched with interest how ZOS would react to the overwhelmingly negative feed back. I have just popped in to pts to see for myself and rather than a long rambling rant I will just say it left me feeling sad. I hope ZOS have their tin hats ready cos when this goes live the negative feed back they have had thus far will be a small drop in ocean compared to the tsunami that is coming.

thats kind of what im seeing, if only 10-15% of the playerbase even frequents the forums, and 80-95% of the feedback from the forums is negative, you can only imagine how that would extrapolate to the rest of the player base

at this point is a "sit back and grab a beer/popcorn and enjoy the show" before saying "i told you so" lol

Imagine players that are new to this whole experience and don't even know that the PTS is a thing or that these forums exist. Imagine getting home, being excited to get some time to play your favorite game, only to realize that the game you knew yesterday is no longer the game it is today.

Some of your skills feel... Off... Your damage is suddenly lower. Some of your skill animations now look very foreign and clunky.

The rotation you spent hours practicing so that you could complete your first vSS is suddenly pointless. The timers are all wrong.

You try that same vSS you did last week, but suddenly are struggling with portals. You haven't struggled with those in months!

Hopefully this info on the PTS forum is all shared through guild chat, but certainly a majority of players still have no idea what's coming. In one of my trade guilds, I only know of 1 other player out of 500 who knew what was happening these last few weeks.

What is definitely noticeable is that the end game community absolutely knows about, reads, and participates in these forums. Craglorn is oddly empty. Trying to get a normal DSR is like pulling teeth.

ZOS's day of reckoning is coming. I bet they have 4 people dedicated to comment moderation on their next live stream, ready to stomp out any comment critical of their behavior during this PTS cycle.

anvilbert

[snip] That is U35 in a nutshell, your community has repeatedly told you it's a mistake with example after example you ZOS are going to go ahead and implement U35 anyway [snip] As a former business owner now retired this is something I understand. You don't ignore the pleas of your customers and stay in business.

[edited for bashing]

Rimskjegg

Aldoss wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Isteris wrote: »

I stayed away from the PTS this time but watched with interest how ZOS would react to the overwhelmingly negative feed back. I have just popped in to pts to see for myself and rather than a long rambling rant I will just say it left me feeling sad. I hope ZOS have their tin hats ready cos when this goes live the negative feed back they have had thus far will be a small drop in ocean compared to the tsunami that is coming.

thats kind of what im seeing, if only 10-15% of the playerbase even frequents the forums, and 80-95% of the feedback from the forums is negative, you can only imagine how that would extrapolate to the rest of the player base

at this point is a "sit back and grab a beer/popcorn and enjoy the show" before saying "i told you so" lol

Imagine players that are new to this whole experience and don't even know that the PTS is a thing or that these forums exist. Imagine getting home, being excited to get some time to play your favorite game, only to realize that the game you knew yesterday is no longer the game it is today.

Some of your skills feel... Off... Your damage is suddenly lower. Some of your skill animations now look very foreign and clunky.

The rotation you spent hours practicing so that you could complete your first vSS is suddenly pointless. The timers are all wrong.

You try that same vSS you did last week, but suddenly are struggling with portals. You haven't struggled with those in months!

Hopefully this info on the PTS forum is all shared through guild chat, but certainly a majority of players still have no idea what's coming. In one of my trade guilds, I only know of 1 other player out of 500 who knew what was happening these last few weeks.

What is definitely noticeable is that the end game community absolutely knows about, reads, and participates in these forums. Craglorn is oddly empty. Trying to get a normal DSR is like pulling teeth.

ZOS's day of reckoning is coming. I bet they have 4 people dedicated to comment moderation on their next live stream, ready to stomp out any comment critical of their behavior during this PTS cycle.

I've already both "Awesome"d this post and directed other threads to it, I just want to say again how incredibly well put this is. This is exactly why ZoS should not take the massive gamble it is to let this patch go live, but instead hold back for more testing and refinements to the changes.

Zastrix

velt88_ESO wrote: »

Think about the type of person who is going to be playing a nightblade. They probably have ADHD, chug energy drinks and are looking for fast paced gameplay. They probably jump constantly, and strafe left and right even when tanking to simulate standing still.

Maybe that's just me. I'm always moving, even when I'm not moving.

It's fun to move around.

This change incentivizes you to stand still -- It's like the developers are saying "You aren't allowed to enjoy yourself while you're tanking."

Jokes aside you really did hit the mark with... literally everything. I really don't like the update for NBs dark cloak where you *have* to stand in a place.

Billium813 wrote: »

If you want to be a "brawler" "DPS" NB, it seems like Shadowy Disguise is flavored more. If you want to tank as NB, seems like Dark Cloak is a better flavor.

Yeah this is a bit wrong as brawlblades are basically nightblades with no invisibility and you know, just attack people with 0 tricks so shadowy disguise is definitely NOT a brawlblade morph at all. I really don't like the rogue style of playing as wow I can just sneak up behind someone stun and nuke them, that's peak gameplay... I want to be chunky, hit like a truck but have a fair fight. Can't do anything with now being forced NOT to move especially when you have DC or PB which will kill you because of that.

keto3000

Zastrix wrote: »

velt88_ESO wrote: »

Think about the type of person who is going to be playing a nightblade. They probably have ADHD, chug energy drinks and are looking for fast paced gameplay. They probably jump constantly, and strafe left and right even when tanking to simulate standing still.

Maybe that's just me. I'm always moving, even when I'm not moving.

It's fun to move around.

This change incentivizes you to stand still -- It's like the developers are saying "You aren't allowed to enjoy yourself while you're tanking."

Jokes aside you really did hit the mark with... literally everything. I really don't like the update for NBs dark cloak where you *have* to stand in a place.

Billium813 wrote: »

If you want to be a "brawler" "DPS" NB, it seems like Shadowy Disguise is flavored more. If you want to tank as NB, seems like Dark Cloak is a better flavor.

Yeah this is a bit wrong as brawlblades are basically nightblades with no invisibility and you know, just attack people with 0 tricks so shadowy disguise is definitely NOT a brawlblade morph at all. I really don't like the rogue style of playing as wow I can just sneak up behind someone stun and nuke them, that's peak gameplay... I want to be chunky, hit like a truck but have a fair fight. Can't do anything with now being forced NOT to move especially when you have DC or PB which will kill you because of that.

I would possibly use that morph in a group setting. Each time I stop or hide behind a rock, pillar, i get healed. I'm interested to see how it plays on LIVE.

anvilbert

[snip] Wake up before you destroy this beutiful game that has been created. I have logged into this game every day without fail since I PURCHASED it, because it was tons of fun. The only thing that kept me coming back after the cp debacle was my guild, now many of them have stopped logging in,if my guild falls apart due to the many drastic changes and constant regearing and respecing I am gone also.

[edited for discussing moderator action]

Captain_Devildog

They should have left the jabs alone!

Astin_nds

PingTheAwesome wrote: »

This is better. Thank you.

Healer's take: You still haven't said what you're doing to our heals. Additionally, while you're reducing the health of the bosses, you do not mention addressing the damage that they do now that you've made it clear you intend to also nerf heals.

This needs addressing.

Healers?¿ , HA! , look this , https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/614506/magickas-we-have-a-big-problem-magickas-healers-too-where-is-the-balance/p1
with that change the HEALERS lose the rol , all players with Resolve vigor , or , Echo Vigor , can Heal More than you xD.. epic... ESO epic... destroy clases , and now roles too, healers... and ofcourse magicka builds..

Goodman777

The problem with weaving can be defeated with the introduction of a cooldown after a light attack. This levels the chances in pvp of players with a high ping against players with a small one (there are a lot of videos when one player carries 20 players and this player has a ping of 50-70 in pvp zones). And the pve should be adjusted to the new realities.

hiddencontentx

i’m just confused. i get leveling the playing field. but there also has to be some sort of difficulty. there’s people that prog trifecta trials for MONTHS and you just want new players to be ready for hardmode by CP 200?

anvilbert

Everyone already has an equal opportunity in the game. As tradesman and craftsman there is a difference in skill level in all things. There are some who can do things and make it look like art, then there are others who do well enough to get by. You can not compensate for skill level by destroying the work of those who excel at what they do. When you do this you wind up with a worthless product whether it be a house multistory building or a game. It is still a product to be purchased. If you loose your customers your history.

joerginger

hiddencontentx wrote: »

i’m just confused. i get leveling the playing field. but there also has to be some sort of difficulty. there’s people that prog trifecta trials for MONTHS and you just want new players to be ready for hardmode by CP 200?

What do you mean? CP 200 players are getting nerfed just like everybody else.

francesinhalover

Astin_nds wrote: »

PingTheAwesome wrote: »

This is better. Thank you.

Healer's take: You still haven't said what you're doing to our heals. Additionally, while you're reducing the health of the bosses, you do not mention addressing the damage that they do now that you've made it clear you intend to also nerf heals.

This needs addressing.

Healers?¿ , HA! , look this , https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/614506/magickas-we-have-a-big-problem-magickas-healers-too-where-is-the-balance/p1
with that change the HEALERS lose the rol , all players with Resolve vigor , or , Echo Vigor , can Heal More than you xD.. epic... ESO epic... destroy clases , and now roles too, healers... and ofcourse magicka builds..

Mags can slot vigor lol, doesnt even cost magicka so they have less resource problems.

renne

francesinhalover wrote: »

Astin_nds wrote: »

PingTheAwesome wrote: »

This is better. Thank you.

Healer's take: You still haven't said what you're doing to our heals. Additionally, while you're reducing the health of the bosses, you do not mention addressing the damage that they do now that you've made it clear you intend to also nerf heals.

This needs addressing.

Healers?¿ , HA! , look this , https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/614506/magickas-we-have-a-big-problem-magickas-healers-too-where-is-the-balance/p1
with that change the HEALERS lose the rol , all players with Resolve vigor , or , Echo Vigor , can Heal More than you xD.. epic... ESO epic... destroy clases , and now roles too, healers... and ofcourse magicka builds..

Mags can slot vigor lol, doesnt even cost magicka so they have less resource problems.

"Less resource problems"... mag toons have limited stam that is needed for so many more other things lol. They can't really afford to slot vigor lol.