Upcoming PTS Combat & Balance Adjustments

Eldartar

I just have one question @ZOS_GinaBruno , When will this Nightmare of continuous changes end?

Turtilla

Finally some good news concerning this patch. Similarly to some others in the thread, I would love to hear something more about how these changes will affect healers (you're nerfing our heals, while it is already tough to heal some fights, e.g. Bahsei HM, Xalvakka HM, vDSR HMs).

Varana

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Additionally, for Dungeons and Trials, we’ll be reducing the health of all bosses on Veteran difficulty and above in the final PTS patch to account for the overall DPS loss.

As others have said - what about healing abilities? Outgoing boss damage? Anything?

It's quite telling that you acknowledge "DPS loss" but don't even mention nerfs to (or even any effect on) healing in this patch.

Lykeion

Please give enough attention to the Dark Cloak. Please don't disregard pve for the sake of pvp balance. It is the only recovery skill that pve NB tanks can rely on, and on PTS 3 it requires about 85% health loss to achieve the same recovery ability as live servers. The cloak performs even worse at 50% health, but at 50% health it is already a critical state for pve tank

_adhyffbjjjf12

In software development there is iteration and then there is trial and error as a result of poor Impact analysis and customer consultation where a service is involved (e.g mmorpg games with a sub). Iteration works with fast and frequent small concise controlled and tested changes, anything else is prone to failure and error. It amazes me that despite being in an industry with more than 20 years of software development agile practices experience we see this kind of chaos and disruption and apparent issues with the implementation of good practices.

https://kanbanize.com/agile/project-management/principles

#1 Satisfy Customers Through Early & Continuous Delivery
#2 Welcome Changing Requirements Even Late in the Project
#3 Deliver Value Frequently
#4 Break the Silos of Your Project
#5 Build Projects Around Motivated Individuals
#6 The Most Effective Way of Communication is Face-to-face
#7 Working Software is the Primary Measure of Progress
#8 Maintain a Sustainable Working Pace
#9 Continuous Excellence Enhances Agility
#10 Simplicity is Essential
#11 Self-organizing Teams Generate Most Value
#12 Regularly Reflect and Adjust Your Way of Work to Boost Effectiveness

Firstmep

Lykeion wrote: »

Please give enough attention to the Dark Cloak. Please don't disregard pve for the sake of pvp balance. It is the only recovery skill that pve NB tanks can rely on, and on PTS 3 it requires about 85% health loss to achieve the same recovery ability as live servers. The cloak performs even worse at 50% health, but at 50% health it is already a critical state for pve tank

This change makes no sense in regards of pvp either.
Most people already use shadowy disguise there anyway.
Dark cloak heal is pretty good on live, but without invisibility the added tanginess is a absolutely needed, and this skill provides that.

Also I dont get how it makes sense for a hot to scale based on missing hp.
When you are on low health, you want to use a burst heal, not a heal over time.
Hots are there to partially mitigate incoming damage.

Lalothen

With all that said, in next week’s PTS patch you’ll find that we will be re-evaluating some of the adjustments to Light and Heavy Attacks so they are a bit less drastic. Light and Heavy Attacks will once again scale with your stats, just to a lesser extent than before. Overall, there will still be a nerf on Light Attack damage, but this will allow us to give a lot more love to Heavy Attacks and will be less stark of a difference.

I'm glad to see scaling return and I think lowering the impact of stats is a good compromise. I feel - justifiably - a bit sceptical about the "love to Heavy Attacks" statement, but I am happy that the stark difference in output potential is recognised as an issue. I look forward to testing out and providing data-centric feedback over whatever changes get uploaded to the PTS next week.

I remain very concerned about the DoT & HoT situation; there's a lot that really needs to be done to make sure timers across the board are more standardised and allow for good flow for both static & dynamic rotations. Hopefully some of the mis-matches will be addressed with the class-related changes.

fiender66

Gina is kind as she uses to be. Thanks. An example for all of us.

Anyways, today I was running my stamplar on PTS, looking for some solution to the sad state she had been plunged into and... SURPRISE! The situation had reverted to what I was accastomed to: mob falling like grass blades and, above all, bosses large and small dealt with in a definitely reasonable time. Now, I've had done absolutely nothing by myself, and, of course, I'm not able to produce any figure whatsoever, so my impression is just that, a subjective thing, but, trust me, it was indeed a very strong one.

Lacking any better explanation I'm inclined to give credit to some supernatural influence (I'm jocking ofc).

Let me be clear: the supernal explanation is a joke, but the combat experience was real, and not at all a subtle one.

Brrrofski

React wrote: »

I am really happy with this combat update. Thank you for listening to the community.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Isair wrote: »

About Nocturnal’s Ploy tho… has this thing been touched yet?

Yes, there is an adjustment on the cooldown planned for this set in Monday's PTS patch.

Please do not just adjust the cooldown, unless you are planning a 15 second or longer cooldown. This set can remove potion sourced buffs. The game has been entirely built, stat wise, around these buffs. Being able to lose them for 40 seconds potentially is very harmful to the balance in PVP, and it has been almost unanimously agreed upon by PVP players that this set is a mistake.

I completely agree.

The big issue was always the potion buffs.

Maybe the set can be reworked so that when you apply a debuff, it removes the associated buff.

So if I put breach on someone, they lose resolve.

It makes the set better to counter, as it's clear what i'm losing based on what set/skill my enemy used. It keeps it a strong set for the user as well, they just have to be smarter with how they use it (which isn't a bad thing).

I dunno, but removing a random buff isn't the way.

If we can lose those regen buffs, people will start putting more sustain in their builds. Which usually comes at the expense of damage. Add that to the other changes that is lowering damage, and we'll soon be in a tank meta, with nobody doing damage, fights going on for too long and the server being a lagfest.

Tar000un

honestaly wrote: »

Tar000un wrote: »

Rollback of hots to 10s is adressing that afaik, but I didnt test healing on PTS, I mean self heal is sticky heal and got 20s duration. While main aoe hots are back to 10s.

So much for Tanks... 20s heals that tick every other second means your tanks are going to struggle, especially as the healers are mostly there to keep the heals on DPS and buff the DPS. Not heal the Tank. Tanks are supposed to be self-reliant... but you're not going to see many tanks slamming down AOE heals for themselves.

For what I played as tank, self healing as tank is mainly shield + burst heal. Except maybe about tankplar and tankblade. But theses are weirdy.

Sync01 wrote: »

Healing is still a mess, here's a thread going into more details:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/613270/healer-toolkit-u35-week-3-feedback#latest

Just thought, forcing dds to slot echoing vigor to give additional heal is a way to reduce players dps. It can't be healers fault when all dds are doing healer job. x)

munster1404

Please reconsider the changes to Nightblade's Dark Cloak skill.

IZZEFlameLash

Can we just get new dungeons and dungeon sets without combat changes? Combat changes are very much more detrimental to new/mid-tier players than it will be with higher end players that spend time researching ins and outs of the mechanics.

As for raising the floor, revert Oakensoul nerf and nerf it with Battle Spirit. I already contribute 50-70% of total group dps in random group queue, with or without Oakensoul. Oakensoul allows me to not worry about healers and tanks not wearing support sets especially if I am grouped with below 160 CP people. And lower end players can pull higher dps with it, making the content experience better for anyone without dedicated groups.

FreeMaN_A

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone,

Additionally, for Dungeons and Trials, we’ll be reducing the health of all bosses on Veteran difficulty and above in the final PTS patch to account for the overall DPS loss.

Wouldn't it be easier just don`t make changes leading to DPS loss? This is the step in the direction to make this update not so bad, but why don`t just revert this changes? Sorry to say that, but you didn`t return the trust of your playerbase. Because it`s post can be read such as "we realized that it was a mistake, but can't admit it openly so instead of reverting bad changes we will add changes to compensate that."

MindOfTheSwarm

merpins wrote: »

I've seen a few people ask, but what about the Templar change to Puncturing Strikes and its morphs?

From what I've seen over nearly 9 years playing this game, the original Puncturing Strikes and its morphs is an extremely favored skill in the game. Players love how it looks and feels to use, it's not like Dive on Warden where it's the only spammable the class has; players like the skill. It could be nerfed, and players would still use the skill despite nerfs because it is such a fun skill to use. Rather than changing the animation, the skill animation could be sped up to .8 seconds, and the damage could be reduced to compensate that. I don't think changing the animation of a player-favorite skill is something that should be done. It's something that should be done on skills where players absolutely hate the skill animation and how it feels to use;
players love Puncturing Strikes, how it looks, and how it feels to use. Nerfing the damage a bit won't change that.

An example of a skill players very much dislike is Warden's Dive skill and its morphs. It's slow and doesn't feel good to use, and after its nerf, it's pretty lack-luster now. THIS should be a skill worth looking at animation changes, not skills players adore.

A good example of a skill that was worth changing is Flurry and its morphs. I have not met many people that like flurry's original animation or how it felt to use. The new animation is a bit lacking, but the intent of changing the old one to something that feels better to use is good. And it does feel good to use now! Though it's a bit slow for the theme of a flurry of blows, and the animation is definitely either the light or heavy attack animation for dual wield, so the skill itself does deserve its own unique animation that follows the theme, or at worst a re-name. But otherwise, I like the intent here. It shows that the devs were listening to the players, a majority of whom did not like this skill and how it felt to use. It's not perfect. But it's better than it was.

Further, if you are going to revamp old skill animations, these animations should be better than the old animations. Time should be taken, unique 3D models and VFX should be made and used, and they should be overall visual upgrades in comparison to the old animation. From what I see on the new animation, it's stiff, the 3D model for the spear is a reused asset from the Nighthollow Staff, and the VFX boils down to just shimmering texture and a glowing light source.

I'm an animator, that's my job. I mainly animate for television and movies, but have done some work on games. The old animation was better, objectively. Exaggeration, anticipation, follow through, arcs, slow in and slow out... It used the principles of animation in a much better way than the new animation. See, the principles exist because without them, animation looks bad. A cartoon doesn't look like reality if you rotoscope exactly, it looks more alive if you exaggerate movements, squash and stretch beyond what a normal human can, etc.

Watch the new animation closely. The first two attacks are exactly the same with no variation in timing. There's no slow in or slow out, anticipation, squash or stretch, or exaggeration. It's just a straight forward animation, frame by frame. It feels stiff, like a robot is moving. The last jab is also slow. It pulls back at the same speed that it stabs, which does not look like a stab.

Here's how I'd fix the animation; for one, there would be variation in the first two strikes, which wouldn't be perfect stabs but have little arcs that the tip of the spear moves in to make it look alive and like an actual warrior is wielding the spear. The arms wouldn't move in perfect repetition. There would be a slight pause at the end of the pull back animation for the first two strikes, and the stab itself would launch forward faster. The body would also move back with the pull back, and arch forward when attacking. Not as much as the final attack, but the body would move a bit unlike the current animation. The second stab would not pull back as far as the first. They're two quick jabs, and pulling back that far both makes the timing of the animation slower, but also makes it look weird. The final attack would pull back similar to how it does, but the launch forward would be faster, and the spear would reach further. It would go in a straight line this time to contrast the arcs from the first two hits, as the arms themselves would be moving in arcs. The character would let go of the spear with their left hand towards the end of the animation to allow them to lunge forward even more than before, which would also give it a better explosive feeling.

That's how I'd fix it. Right now, it needs a complete rework, from the model used for the spear, to the VFX, to the animation.

ZoS, player skills are things we use every day. Spammables are skills we see over and over again, sometimes hundreds of times in a single fight. Please don't change the skills we love for the worst. I'm sure someone worked hard to make the new animation for Puncturing Strikes, but it's also obvious that corners were cut in order to do it quickly. Please don't cut corners when making animation for skills players use. I beg you.

The issue of Crystal Weapon is the same issue as Elemental Weapon. The fact you can combo them with other spammables such as Force Pulse gives them incredible burst. Now with Hybridisation it is even more effective. But nerfing them isn’t the right way to go.

It would be much easier to simply limit the amount of DPS spammables on a bar to one. Most people only slot one anyway and the ones that don’t are the ones that exploit this synergy. This way there would be no reason for nerfs.

Snowy_Wyndra_Karn

drill wrote: »

All this talk of “raising the floor” over the years and it’s amazing to me that you’ve never thought to simply provide better information to newer players on how to improve their gameplay. In my opinion, it’s as simple as providing a secondary tutorial (or even multiple, one for each role) upon hitting level 50, and if it were up to me I’d make it so they’re required to complete that tutorial before entering a Vet Dungeon on their particular role. The base tutorials are an absolute joke and just leave players out to dry. It would not be difficult to even just explain the concept of weaving, rotations, dot/buff uptimes, etc so that people aren’t just queueing into vet content and hitting random skills at random times and light attack spamming the rest of the way.

Absolutely all of this!!!!!

LarsS

I noted that Instagram scrapped changes after massive user protests. I wish that ZOS could do the same, it is the only way to start rebuild trust. There is also a need for a new format of direct communication with the customers.

renne

LarsS wrote: »

I noted that Instagram scrapped changes after massive user protests. I wish that ZOS could do the same, it is the only way to start rebuild trust. There is also a need for a new format of direct communication with the customers.

Yeah but they did take away the chronological feed for 6 years and there was a huge outcry about that, so I guess we can expect an awkward reversion - that doesn't quite feel right or the same - of these nerfs some time around 2028, if the game or Earth still exists then.

KinnikuBeam

I still don't understand why you want to change the finish of the black blade ???

It will start from 50% instead of 25%, on any type of boss this attack will become useless because it will be an energetic abyss

Dawnblade

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Can we just get new dungeons and dungeon sets without combat changes? Combat changes are very much more detrimental to new/mid-tier players than it will be with higher end players that spend time researching ins and outs of the mechanics.

As for raising the floor, revert Oakensoul nerf and nerf it with Battle Spirit. I already contribute 50-70% of total group dps in random group queue, with or without Oakensoul. Oakensoul allows me to not worry about healers and tanks not wearing support sets especially if I am grouped with below 160 CP people. And lower end players can pull higher dps with it, making the content experience better for anyone without dedicated groups.

THIS

Why on earth is a quarterly update to add a couple of dungeons stuffed full of an inordinate amount of, and clearly incomplete, unfinished, unpolished, and rushed, combat changes?

Take the time to do it right or don't do it at all.

Clearly communicate your vision for the game, come up with an actual strategy that allows for comprehensive and complete testing and implementation.

Throwing crap at the wall to see what sticks and making wild incomplete swings every quarter is exhausting.

danno8

usmcjdking wrote: »

Bring back Eric Wrobel.

Talk about rose tinted glasses. Remember any of these?

Sandman929

danno8 wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Bring back Eric Wrobel.

Talk about rose tinted glasses. Remember any of these?

We didn't know they could do so much worse. I pvpd every night back then...now it's once or twice a week for an hour or until I get annoyed

Tanis-Stormbinder

shadyjane62 wrote: »

This is all meaningless to me. I did not see the word Templar in all those words.

If I'm not getting my jabs back, it is irrelevant.

Jabs need to be looked at why should Templars be force to use a Weapon spammable.

Remathilis

Tanis-Stormbinder wrote: »

shadyjane62 wrote: »

This is all meaningless to me. I did not see the word Templar in all those words.

If I'm not getting my jabs back, it is irrelevant.

Jabs need to be looked at why should Templars be force to use a Weapon spammable.

Considering how bad crystal frags, poop rock, cliff racer and skulls are, I think the term is "welcome to the club".

fred4

Speaking personally for a moment, the nerf to Sweeps is a major accessibility nerf to me as a mid-level PvE player. I use magplar exclusively as a DD for trials and veteran dungeons. I have not tested on the PTS, but I am one of those players that can't weave light attacks with Sweeps properly. I end up taking longer than the GCD to recast Sweeps, so I can fit light attacks in. This causes a substantial DPS loss for me, which bears out in parsing, but I sustain better from not casting Sweeps as often as other people do. It's that sustain advantage that actually tipped me off to this versus my friends. Ultimately I can build for higher damage stats than they do.

At any rate, I did the math, including adjustments for being able to spam and weave Sweeps quicker. The nerf to Sweeps and Burning Light is so harsh that I'm looking at a 25% damage loss from that skill regardless.

If ever there was an easy to use class for people with accessibility issues, it was magplar. Nerfed. It makes no sense. Yes, a lot of power was tied up in Sweeps alone, but speaking personally, that did not make the class boring. Templar has an execute, a gap closer, a burst heal, lots of reactive skills. It is IMO engaging to play, unlike the utterly boring magden. In many ways magplar was the holy grail of what ZOS appear to be looking for, and they nerfed it. <Shakes head>.

Furthermore, templar is the one class where the ridiculous strength of their class spammable wasn't an issue in PvP. Again, holy cow! This is grail territory, and ZOS threw it away. Jabs / Sweeps strength was necessary to balance out the many disadvantages of that skill in PvP. The fact that you can't block cast it. The fact that you can't cancel it into a dodge roll and do full damage. The fact that not all strikes may hit a player, that it may wrongly prioritize pets and secondary targets, and that it can be mitigated by Major Evasion. The fact that it's melee and, thus, inherently less safe than ranged playstyles.

While other builds took centre stage on the current live patch, magplar is arguably overtuned right now, but this is arguably a fallout from hybridisation. The fact that Deadly Strikes became available for it, for example. Not the only reason, however fundamentally there was nothing wrong with the class. The ridiculous strength of Sweeps was an on paper oddity that largely made sense, once you played the class. Templar, with it's Minor Sorcery passive, benefitted from everyone getting +1K spell / weapon damage at base, a few patches ago. Still, that was IMO no reason to pull the rug from under this playstyle as U35 is doing. It got the sledgehammer, as usual. Why?

So here's another thing that's actually serious for those of us who play templar in PvP or PvE, and it's not even on the roadmap for week 5, nor the main focus of player outrage.

Mr_Stach

danno8 wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Bring back Eric Wrobel.

Talk about rose tinted glasses. Remember any of these?

Kirawolfe

Parrot1986 wrote: »

We now have LA/HA being more damage again making weaving more important. Add to that that class rotations are more complex due to the varied durations. Magplar now for e.g. has 6 second, 10 second, 20 second, 22 second and 25 second skills to use which is much more difficult than on live. How is this supposed to help those progressing when one of the easier classes is much harder after this.

Agreed.

It is good to get communication, and it is good to feel as if Zos is responding to what people are saying. That's really appreciated (thank you, Gina!). I also appreciate the change to LA/HA - especially for those using HA heavy builds because of mobility issues.

But I'm now at a loss. If we're dropping DPS, but we're also dropping difficulty, and we're throwing rotations out of whack with new timers, what's actually being achieved here?

Mass hysteria and confusion?

PvXGamer

Yo Developers!

Please consider doing things like these types of changes when you do not have a scheduled event. You are forcing players to choose between playing 'sweaty' PvP or playing on PTS to test and provide feedback on proposed changes. Our time, just like yours, is limited since we cannot be in two places at once. If you want player feedback, parses, and logs from us playing on PTS, then having an event running at the same time is probably not a good thing.

DuckFayth

Thank you for the update, this statement has addressed almost everything out of my initial list of concerns when it came to the goal of accessibility and new player experience. It gives me hope more than anything else I have seen or read so far and it does not fall on deaf ears to be getting much better communication from the team during this PTS cycle.

francesinhalover

This ability makes my eyes bleed, plz make endless hail 10 seconds or 20 seconds or just decrease how bright arrow barrage special effect is. and yes i have bloom off

Firstmep

fred4 wrote: »

Speaking personally for a moment, the nerf to Sweeps is a major accessibility nerf to me as a mid-level PvE player. I use magplar exclusively as a DD for trials and veteran dungeons. I have not tested on the PTS, but I am one of those players that can't weave light attacks with Sweeps properly. I end up taking longer than the GCD to recast Sweeps, so I can fit light attacks in. This causes a substantial DPS loss for me, which bears out in parsing, but I sustain better from not casting Sweeps as often as other people do. It's that sustain advantage that actually tipped me off to this versus my friends. Ultimately I can build for higher damage stats than they do.

At any rate, I did the math, including adjustments for being able to spam and weave Sweeps quicker. The nerf to Sweeps and Burning Light is so harsh that I'm looking at a 25% damage loss from that skill regardless.

If ever there was an easy to use class for people with accessibility issues, it was magplar. Nerfed. It makes no sense. Yes, a lot of power was tied up in Sweeps alone, but speaking personally, that did not make the class boring. Templar has an execute, a gap closer, a burst heal, lots of reactive skills. It is IMO engaging to play, unlike the utterly boring magden. In many ways magplar was the holy grail of what ZOS appear to be looking for, and they nerfed it. <Shakes head>.

Furthermore, templar is the one class where the ridiculous strength of their class spammable wasn't an issue in PvP. Again, holy cow! This is grail territory, and ZOS threw it away. Jabs / Sweeps strength was necessary to balance out the many disadvantages of that skill in PvP. The fact that you can't block cast it. The fact that you can't cancel it into a dodge roll and do full damage. The fact that not all strikes may hit a player, that it may wrongly prioritize pets and secondary targets, and that it can be mitigated by Major Evasion. The fact that it's melee and, thus, inherently less safe than ranged playstyles.

While other builds took centre stage on the current live patch, magplar is arguably overtuned right now, but this is arguably a fallout from hybridisation. The fact that Deadly Strikes became available for it, for example. Not the only reason, however fundamentally there was nothing wrong with the class. The ridiculous strength of Sweeps was an on paper oddity that largely made sense, once you played the class. Templar, with it's Minor Sorcery passive, benefitted from everyone getting +1K spell / weapon damage at base, a few patches ago. Still, that was IMO no reason to pull the rug from under this playstyle as U35 is doing. It got the sledgehammer, as usual. Why?

So here's another thing that's actually serious for those of us who play templar in PvP or PvE, and it's not even on the roadmap for week 5, nor the main focus of player outrage.

This sums it up pretty well.

At the lower end of pvp, sweeps can feel op, because people dont really know how to use movement to their advantage.
But good players can make you miss half your jabs easily, if you cant lock them down.
I wouldn't have minded a reasonable nerf to its damage, but cutting a tick down and 21% on top is way to much.
I would suggest just keeping the 3 ticks, but reverting the 21% additional nerf.
As it stands, melee templar will have to rock multiple damage procs, just to be able to put out similar-ish damage to pre update 35.
Burning light should also have its 33% cut reverted, but keep the cooldown and functionality.
This would be far less severe changes, and can always be revisited, if they turn out to be not enough.

@ZOS_GinaBruno the vast majority of feedback on these forums agree, that the templar changes are far too excessive, please bring this to the team if you can.