Thank you ZOS for putting an end to the Parsing Race and keeping the premise of the game!

Jazraena

Firstmep wrote: »

Arthtur wrote: »

Last time i checked u still had to use 1 skill per second. Where exactly they made rotations easier? They just made it more boring.

I rly dont get what ppl see in those patch notes. There is not a single thing that helps anyone. Like if someone have problems with using 1 skill per second he will be nerfed even harder because DoTs will be weaker...

The concept is/was that longer dots mean ppl dont have to pay attention to their timers as much and can focus on mechanics more instead.
Ofc they couldve just as easily reworked the ui or made it easier to track dots/hots, but that wouldn't spreatsheet crunching so.. oh well.

Maybe if they actually harmonized timers instead of making them even more over the place, that might even be a point.

FluffyBird

(bolding mine)

katorga wrote: »

Plus I love how they stated they wanted consistent dot/hot timers to make things easier, and then in a kneejerk reaction to the uproar, they create more, and more varied timers making things even more inconsistent that they were before 8.1.0.

So tiresome and disappointing, I must say

Jazraena

Aye.

I mean, even 8.1.0 was a mess timer wise since they totally forgot about class passives, Elf Bane and similar, but 8.1.2 is even worse.

Lalothen

dskrulz wrote: »

1. End-tier players (you awesome guys, really, I appreciate your ambitions to be the best) are going to adapt. I know they will, because they have such a high understanding of the game and its mechanics, and it's just not going to stop them. A new META will be set, and they will find a way to reach the possible maximum damage this update allows them to.

No. The META remains pretty much the same and groups will simply source good Empower uptime now.

2. Mid-tiers will FINALLY get their brain-wheels moving. They will be less going blind after META as they know it is weaker than before, and more trying to actually create their unique build that maybe no one is using. They are going to be SPECIAL - which is a sanctified thing in my eyes.
ESO from the first place encourage us to be WHOEVER we want - so fulfill that premise!

No. As someone who's been building non-META for years - and who progs vet group content with non-META HA builds - non-META builds are now further behind than before.

3. ESO is the game of ZOS. We the player give feedback, but it does not mean that every feedback has to be agreed with. If a feedback doesn't go eye-to-eye with ZOS plan for the game, it's just logical they won't make changes by it. I encourage them to keep and make ESO a game where I can create whatever playstyle I wish, and still be able to accomplish. And I know they will set the difficulty of the content proportional to the changes of U35.

ZOS said this to me and players like me in their U35 preview:

WE'VE HEARD YOUR CRIES, HEAVY ATTACK BUILD LOVERS, AND WE WANT BETTER FOR YOU

They have instead proceeded to nerf HA builds and leave them even further behind the META than on the Live servers. They've been receiving feedback about this fact since PTS day 1, and have as-yet done nothing - zip, zilch, nada, not-a-damned-thing - to address the blatant issues.

I've put years into eking the most out of HA builds that I possibly can. I've taken nerf after nerf on the chin and kept trying to find a way to roll with it. This is going to be the last straw and the death knell of HA builds as remotely viable for endgame PvE content if this update goes through as-is. End of story. That's also an entire demographic of non-META players being given the shaft.

SpacemanSpiff1

dskrulz wrote: »

Everything you say guys comes down to one thing: Reducing the difficulty of end-game content, then it's all proportional again - only difference being you can achieve everything with less DPS, which will make the whole experience much more friendly and much less stressful.

did i miss the bit about them rescaling all of the content difficulty in the pts patch notes?

Mr_Stach

SpacemanSpiff1 wrote: »

dskrulz wrote: »

Everything you say guys comes down to one thing: Reducing the difficulty of end-game content, then it's all proportional again - only difference being you can achieve everything with less DPS, which will make the whole experience much more friendly and much less stressful.

did i miss the bit about them rescaling all of the content difficulty in the pts patch notes?

No you did not, this was never mentioned

Soarora

dskrulz wrote: »

You can not play however you want, if what started as a niche ambition to reach max DPS, has become a standart for every DD class, that without it your playstyle, build and set choices are considered inferior.
In a "play however you want" world, I and a lot others could really create our unique builds (and oh, how much I love experimenting and how many sets combinations I've tried) - without having the concern that if I don't get the current META, I'm one of the weak ones.

I get it that every game has to have a META, I really do. It gives a direction to progress to and develop goals. But I do not agree when a META becomes the only way to achieve content. In other words, I'm Ok with the fact that there are stronger players than me who deal more DPS - what I'm not Ok with, is the limitation of content for mid-tiers.

2. Mid-tiers will FINALLY get their brain-wheels moving. They will be less going blind after META as they know it is weaker than before, and more trying to actually create their unique build that maybe no one is using. They are going to be SPECIAL - which is a sanctified thing in my eyes.
ESO from the first place encourage us to be WHOEVER we want - so fulfill that premise!

No one is forcing anyone to play meta. People can give unwarranted advice or push meta when asked but that doesn’t mean you have to take it. Off-meta builds were doing fine… I was hitting between 80 and 90k using partial meta.

Keyword: were. PTS week 1 severely injured my builds… PTS week 3 so far has killed them. It’s distressing. I’m barely hitting 71k and everything I try within the bounds of the build’s uniqueness does nothing to help. That’s with the dummy buffed too, I very well could’ve lost 20k dps when the minimum for vet trials is 70, 75, or 90k dps depending on content. This update absolutely will not help build diversity in the slightest… you will most likely HAVE to build meta to do endgame content in the near future.

Sallymen

I have yet to see someone who has invested themselves into the endgame to actually argue for update 35.

xylena_lazarow

Sallymen wrote: »

I have yet to see someone who has invested themselves into the endgame to actually argue for update 35.

This, like other posts supporting u35, gives little to no specifics for how u35 improves anything, and seems to be driven primarily by schadenfreude towards players who dislike the nerfs, alongside a vague "anti-meta" sentiment that pays no mind to how severely creative casual builds will be gutted.

Matthew_Galvanus

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Sallymen wrote: »

I have yet to see someone who has invested themselves into the endgame to actually argue for update 35.

This, like other posts supporting u35, gives little to no specifics for how u35 improves anything, and seems to be driven primarily by schadenfreude towards players who dislike the nerfs, alongside a vague "anti-meta" sentiment that pays no mind to how severely creative casual builds will be gutted.

i can't really say anything because "conspiracy theories and malicious information", but if you think about who is the most likely to defend the update, it kinda speaks for itself.

p4l4mu7

I will explain it as simple as possible so you understand why are you supporting them for making the opposite of what you want.

Let's say to complete X trials mechanics you need 100k dps and you highest dps you can reach in the game with 2 meta setups is 120k, there will be 10 other setups that will take you between 100-120k dps, so you have 10-12 different builds you can use to complete this trial. You can use the meta build to get 120k dps and you can just chill while playing because you are way above the requirement and you don't need to push yourself in order to complete or if you don't like the meta build you have 11 other builds you can pick from because they are all enough to complete the trial.

On the other hand, with the dps nerf you are praising, they reduced the damage to 100-105k from 120k, which means now you only have 2 sets you can use in order to be succesful in the X trial, any other setup you use will result in you wiping your entire group. Now everybody has to use the exact same setup because if you use anything else you are way below the requirements for that trial. And unlike previously you have no room to chill while playing because you can barely pull 100k dps and if you fall below you are not completing it, you have to constantly pay attention and sweat in order to get a completion.

boi_anachronism_

I'm glad this is gonna be so much better for you but for me and most other folks who have joint issues spamming one button is going to be hell. You won't get into more trials, expectations will not go down because content difficulty ISN'T going down. Idk where you got that but they have actively said they will NOT nerf content. It's too time intensive. They would have too push back 2 patch cycles at a minimum to accomplish even half. They have said they won't in interviews, over and over. You can watch said interviews on YouTube. Guilds will turtle up because we can cover the lost dps. I'm sorry but you're just flat out wrong and even causal players will say it. Check out spicy Chris on YouTube. He is an older, causal player.

How is heavy attack nerfing good for casuals? How is nerfing lightning staff good for casuals? That's the most used options by a wild margin. "Meta" players are already figuring out ways around this while mid level raiders are being nerfed out of content. I've run the numbers, I'm barely making it into vet content at 70k-75k which was hard as hell to achieve considering my situation. This is going to push me out of content I love not diversify my build. Stopping the dps race? No this is going to make it even more emphasized.

Casdha

I'd like to see them revert the game back to May 2014 when HRC was first released and play that version with the available builds at the time (I know a few videos are still on youtube). You think folks are upset now,,,, I can only imagine. Wipe after Wipe after Wipe just to get by the first boss.

xDeusEJRx

I'm hardly much of an endgame PVE'er, I only ever PVE to get gear I want for PVP. But I've still completed some trials/arenas/vet dungeons and I don't think this update will ever make PVE for me easier as someone who doesn't engage in PVE much or trying to prog in trials.

If anything my already laughable DPS is just gonna be even more laughable because they never bothered to adjust the content of the game to fit their target playerbase, they only try to adjust the players to fit their content.

So if anything I will struggle more in PVE which means more time I have to spend there than doing what I'd rather be doing (PVP)

prof_doom

Casdha wrote: »

I'd like to see them revert the game back to May 2014 when HRC was first released and play that version with the available builds at the time (I know a few videos are still on youtube). You think folks are upset now,,,, I can only imagine. Wipe after Wipe after Wipe just to get by the first boss.

That would be fine, if they actually stuck with that concept.
They chose to not touch power creep for 8 years.

The idea of working your way up from Vet Crag Trails, to vet Sunspire/VMoL through the new DLC trials, and then thinking about chasing HM and achievements has been the way it's worked for a while now, and yeah, people have grown to like it.

xaraan

Really feels like the players that think the patch is good are the ones that understand the game the least and actually believe all the "dev comment" reasons for the changes and don't see how it will actually play out.

wolfie1.0.

dskrulz wrote: »

Everything you say guys comes down to one thing: Reducing the difficulty of end-game content, then it's all proportional again - only difference being you can achieve everything with less DPS, which will make the whole experience much more friendly and much less stressful.

Not so sure it will make it less stressful or frustrating. Probably make it more so.

I don't know if you have been on the pts. But the changes are going to make things harder for much of the content for solo play. Requiring grouping up more.

Because dots damage is reduced in order to kill things you are going to have to rely on spam attack skills more. That 1 bar easy sorcerer heavy attack build that many low apm players relied on to complete higher end content? Gone. Jabs relient easy templar build? Gone. Any Oakensoul build? Gone. Atleast for any semblance of harder content.

We will see how things go.

One of the items that you are assuming though is that ZOS will nerf content at some point. There isn't any indication of this occurring this patch. We will see how that goes in the upcoming weeks. But it's not likely to occur as they would need to adjust many interactions and achievements.

This is why it's often easier to adjust combat rather than change an entire arena or trial. Which is why these changes are confusing to a lot of players. If you want more accessible content then you increase damage output at the bottom while also capping damage at the top.

I could be misunderstanding what your saying as well I don't know. All I do know is that certian achievements and trials are going to be out of reach for me with this update.

In fact I havnt been able to clear the new dungeons on the pts in vet, and normal was a struggle.

Which begs the question: why am I paying for content that I can't complete?

Billium813

dskrulz wrote: »

I'm not doing Arenas and Trials, because being a META does not appeal to me. ZOS *will* adjust the content as I said, and then and only then I will do Arenas and Trials - when it does not demand a META build everyone's using.

Let us all enjoy and experience all the aspects of the game, not just its competitive side, which is totally fine by itself, but again - not when there's an absolute need to be a part of it to be considered a "good/strong player".

I'm not sure I understand. I also don't run META builds, I prefer to feel out and create my own "good" builds for most content. Things like PUG 4-man dungeons allow for this because you don't HAVE to be hyper efficient to clear them. They can be challenging, but don't require specific builds, just general knowledge of mechanics and being decent at your role (dps checks, tank checks, ect)

Why do you think they are going to go back and adjust all the content for the new, lower DPS averages? Do we have confirmation on this somewhere? That seems like a MASSIVE undertaking that ZOS will never do. Just think of the sheer amount of testing they would have to do! Seems highly unlikely to me.

If we assume they WON'T go back and nerf all content for the new, lower DPS average (occam's razor). All this means is that less players will be able to complete it now. Meaning even MORE reliance on META builds to get through it. What will you do when Vet dungeons you used to be able to clear will now not be doable? Will you just isolate yourself from even more content?

Now, 40K dps, which was adequate and definitely not META, will be more like 25-30k and will be pushing it. This is just going to make things tougher on people NOT running META builds! This DPS drop + no revision to content will only make content MORE exclusive to META builds.

Galiferno

I'm sorry about your disability and respect you trying to play the game as best you can, but I'll reinforce what others have said: your DPS going down and your lack of optimization will not make content more accessible to you when there's no plans to adjust content. If anything, requirements for trials will become more strict because there's a dirty little secret many casual players don't want to accept: bigger DPS makes trials easier without a single doubt. Groups will be even more on the lookout for DPS who stay around and optimize and can push good numbers. Maybe pugging normal Crag trials won't be affected much, but I've seen the difference between an unoptimized and casual group who never adapts or strives to improve and a big DPS group doing vKA or any other DLC trial farm runs: the former can't even clear, and the latter clears in 25 minutes. Sorry, but this patch does absolutely nothing good for lower end players, your DPS will worsen and groups will be more reluctant to take you into trials.

Casdha

prof_doom wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

I'd like to see them revert the game back to May 2014 when HRC was first released and play that version with the available builds at the time (I know a few videos are still on youtube). You think folks are upset now,,,, I can only imagine. Wipe after Wipe after Wipe just to get by the first boss.

That would be fine, if they actually stuck with that concept.
They chose to not touch power creep for 8 years.

The idea of working your way up from Vet Crag Trails, to vet Sunspire/VMoL through the new DLC trials, and then thinking about chasing HM and achievements has been the way it's worked for a while now, and yeah, people have grown to like it.

I don't disagree with that. If they want to fix the game the have to start (again) with how it is played. It remains to be seen if they will follow through with adjusting the content to match. I quit trying to hold my breath for them a long time ago. But I've seen all of this uproar before and I guarantee they will do what they plan on doing and all of these rants are not going to change a thing. The reason they ask for data is to see if their plan is working not to see if it angers folks or not.

Jaimeh

dskrulz wrote: »

2. Mid-tiers will FINALLY get their brain-wheels moving. They will be less going blind after META as they know it is weaker than before, and more trying to actually create their unique build that maybe no one is using. They are going to be SPECIAL - which is a sanctified thing in my eyes.
ESO from the first place encourage us to be WHOEVER we want - so fulfill that premise!

OP, create a special build on live now and parse with it, then create the same special build on the PTS and parse with it, you'll find that the damage is lower for your special build. The fact that BiS builds get weaker doesn't mean that other builds will get to shine, in fact these will perform even worse. If you think that this patch will move more towards 'play as you want' the way you envision it you're sorely wrong: in fact players will have to adhere to meta even more now in order to be able to complete content.

On a separate note, this post is the kind of thinking, sentiment, and behaviour that ZOS is encouraging... it's such a pity.

tomofhyrule

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

dskrulz wrote: »

Everything you say guys comes down to one thing: Reducing the difficulty of end-game content, then it's all proportional again - only difference being you can achieve everything with less DPS, which will make the whole experience much more friendly and much less stressful.

Since I have been playing the game, coming up on 4 years now, zos has significantly nerfed content EXACTLY ONCE. They gave vHoF a tweak because the trial sucked and it had ridiculously low completion numbers.

When people were saying Bahsei hardmode was stupid difficult zos replied by nerfing a skill that people were using to cope with the absolutely massive amounts of incoming damage. Bahsei hardmode is still stupidly difficult, and there are only a handful of teams, a year later, that have completed the trifecta, and here's the kicker: there is significant overlap between those teams.

Not a whisper of content being nerfed, not a mention of it anywhere, and it's been brought up over and over again.

But they have nerfed content. Several times.

I know a lot of guildies who have been playing longer than I have constantly talking about how places like Bloodroot Forge have been hit with the nerfhammer (the shalk attack where the lava chases you used to be a oneshot, and now it's barely an annoyance). The ones I know about and have experienced are things like the nerfs to several dungeons like MHK and FV last march (spriggans can't chain cast skeever, laser boss runs to the center of the room and adds become chainable). I also remember the forum blowback about those since "omg wtf this game is too easy already why are you nerfing dungeons!??!?!1111?!"

And yes, for your specific example, they also significantly reduced the damage per tick of Death's Touch when they made it so you couldn't mist form cheese it anymore.

We can't guarantee that they'll nerf the content, but it was shown that a whole team of multi-Dawnbreakers found it literally impossible to do vKAHM last week (granted, that was before the new ground HoT changes in 8.1.2). If ZOS is going to push through these changes (and yes, if as many people quit as are saying they will), their internal data will show that completion rates of the higher-level content drop to zero. Then they will have a reason to nerf it. I'd expect we'd probably see a dungeon/trial rebalance in Update 36 or 37... and knowing the forums, we'd probably also get loads of threads complaining that they should stay impossibly difficult...

Yes, I'm annoyed that it seems like the combat and encounters teams have no clue what each other is doing - the latest dungeons and trials are a massive step-up in difficulty over the previous ones and have obviously been balances around the 0.01%, so game-wide nerfs will make clears for the newer stuff all but out of reach for all but the best of the best. Yes, it's disheartening to see so many changes all the time and end up with constant change fatigue. But ZOS has shown that they adapt content if they recognize that the clear rates aren't up to what they would like. It may take a bit, and it may end up feeling line U35 is more of a live test that they'll tweak (or massively reconfigure) with U36-U40, but they do modify content as well.

ZOS_GregoryV

Greetings all,

After review a lengthy review, we just want to remind everyone that all posts should be kept within the rules, as well as on topic. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please take a few moments to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding,
-Greg-

carly

There are a lot of good people here that have taken the time to test these new changes and their opinion matters to me because they're doing the hard work for those of us that can't. I have some physical challenges as well and I most certainly don't want the game slowing down -no one wants to spend 15 minutes taking down one mob - that's tedious and boring. These changes will hurt everyone.

Casdha

While I was doing some research for this thread(only from my Main) I came across an Idea I'd like to revisit, more on that in a minute.

I thought it would help to know exactly where I stand on the content I've done so you can judge what kind of player I am.
(this does not include my time in beta, we were asked to do a job and it wasn't always something I would normally be doing)

Vet Dungeons:
only Trial completed Hel Ra (I've done a couple of others on other toons) edit: also I don't consider Dragonstar a trial So I didn't count it.
(not going to list All vet dungeons, Most but missing a few bosses)
Only No Death achievement = Fire Brigade
Only Speed achievements = City of Ash 1, Spindleclutch 1, and Fungal Grotto 1
Only Survivor Achievment City of Ash 1

Normal Group Dungeons: I've not done Direfrost Keep (Pact) nor Volenfell (DC)
But it is when I looked at the dates for Normal Dungeons I remembered what a lot of players were pushing for a few years ago.

You see, I soloed Vaults of Madness, Banished Cells, Spindleclutch and Fungal Grotto 1 way back in 2014.

How you ask? well there in lies a solution. You see back then you could out level a dungeon and go back to the zone it was in and it was like playing God Mode and doing a level 7 group dungeon at VR level that is pretty much exactly what it was. Back then if you were 5 levels above content you didn't receive any loot or experience.

What was it folks were pushing for a few years ago? To boil it down to a single thought, there was a push for an easy mode for hard content so everyone could experience it. This was when they started doing the year long tie in stories.

So fingers crossed, all these changes are preparation to introduce a 3rd base difficulty level in the future. It may not be as good as the 10 or so levels there would be if things had never changed but it would work. (yea, I'm not holding my breath) *fingers still crossed*

boi_anachronism_

Nerfing a few mobs and misc skills in a handful of dungeons over the last 8yrs does not even BEGIN to approach the scale on which they would have to do that to make dlcs dungeons and trials accessible again. They have said it multiple times, they do not plan to do an overall content nerf. Period.

Sync01

The more I read on the forum, the more I'm convinced that players who are against the meta, do not understand what meta actually is. A meta build is simply a build made with knowledge about builds. Essentially it's whatever is the most optimal at the time... so the gear, skills, classes and tactics that will give you the best chance at completing the content.

It makes no sense to be "against meta".

Riptide

Nods, it is a swear word to some folks. And it smacks of that one friend you have that loves a band until they are discovered, and then they are trash.

Meta simply means “most effective tactic available”. Like for instance, drinking coffee is better from a cup rather than a gas can. Sure you can drink it from a gas can, it is possible, but when you see someone at breakfast doing it that way and mention there are cups over there on the counter, and they come unglued and/or stomp off to sit somewhere else, it is, well.

And then when the gas can coffee drinkers come into public spaces and complain about elitist cup users, it is like, ok, more power to you.

And when the gas can coffee drinkers think it will even things up with the elitist cup users to put dirt in with the coffee grounds, its just, what?

And eventually those elitist cup users go somewhere else so they can find a decent darn cup of coffee, you know?

Casdha

Sync01 wrote: »

The more I read on the forum, the more I'm convinced that players who are against the meta, do not understand what meta actually is. A meta build is simply a build made with knowledge about builds. Essentially it's whatever is the most optimal at the time... so the gear, skills, classes and tactics that will give you the best chance at completing the content.

It makes no sense to be "against meta".

I think most understand. The same could be said for anyone who can't argue a point without using the word "Parse".

I personally come here to play a video game and escape to a different world for a little while, not to calculate numbers to make sure I hit both bonuses on a game of Yatzee. To me keeping up with numbers and doing parses takes all of the magic (pardon the pun) out of the game. After trying to keep up with all of the changes the first few years and getting frustrated I've come to realize with this game...

Riptide

I wonder that folks who think its about ego and enjoyment of big numbers haven’t seemingly been in true prog groups.

Where it takes you weeks of meeting together to clear a trial. And night after night you hit brick walls.

Often getting the 2nd or 3rd boss down to 10%, or 5%, over and over and over.

And so you don’t drag yourself to the target dummy for funsies.

You optimize every wee bit and bang on the thing for the team. To carry that extra 5k dps for the teammate who may not be able to.

Or who obstinately refuses to optimize, and thinks the meta is for egomaniacs with no love or care for immersion.